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Chump Chumbucasino dot com. 20 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.359 Nocess relieved by lock eighty plus storms editions plus whatever 21 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:02.240 do lost. 22 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.400 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 23 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.519 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 24 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:26.159 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 25 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.159 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 26 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.200 killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, 27 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:46.560 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 28 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.879 Good evening, This is your host, Dan Zupanski, for the 29 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.640 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 30 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.920 history and the authors that have written about them, from 31 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.640 Ancient Rome, through the Dark Ages to the Burgeoning West 32 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.400 to the open highways of Earth in America, from the 33 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:06.000 unconscionable exploits of French religious zealot Jills Deraye to such 34 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:10.319 all American monsters as Jeffrey Dahmer and Alien. Warno's Katherine 35 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.400 Ramsland makes an eye opening case for the existence of 36 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:17.560 serial killers throughout time and offers a complete chronological record 37 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.159 of the serial killer phenomena, as well as the parallel 38 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:25.680 development of psychology, forensic science, and FBI profiling in the 39 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:30.680 serial killer's evolving manifestation throughout human history. The book we're 40 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.360 profiling this evening is The Human Predator, A historical Chronicle 41 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.319 of serial murder and Forensic investigation, With my special guest, 42 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:42.240 journalist and author Katherine Ramsland. Welcome to the program. And 43 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.879 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kathlyn Ramsland, I'm 44 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.919 happy to be here. I hope I pronounce your last 45 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:49.560 name properly. 46 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:50.120 Yep. 47 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.080 Okay, great. First off, I'm sorry about making you again. 48 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.319 We didn't get a chance to talk before the program. 49 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:00.439 I wanted to just this is a great book. This 50 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.280 is just us. Thank you mind blowing the information it's 51 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:05.800 here that I've never read anywhere else. It's just a 52 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:11.479 very very fascinating comprehensive examination. And let's get right into that. 53 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.360 Take us back in history, because maybe you can tell 54 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:19.560 us one of the contingents you have with this book 55 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:23.759 that about serial killers always mean being in existence, even 56 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.120 though maybe obviously we didn't use that term once upon 57 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:30.120 a time. But take us back right from ancient Rome, 58 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.080 as I explained in the introduction, tell us a little 59 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.280 bit about Rome and Greece, and tell us about the 60 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:40.280 environment at that time, and tell us what was the 61 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:42.639 tell us about that time? 62 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.039 Okay, Well, we really only know about the kinds of 63 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:51.560 serial killers for whom there's documentation. Certain many more serial 64 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:55.199 killers slip through the cracks, But when you're looking at 65 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.879 ancient Rome, for example, the documentation is really with the 66 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:03.360 upper classes, and you know, we had a few attorneys 67 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:08.960 who kept records and also some of the Roman leaders. 68 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.000 So that's how we know about a woman named Locusta 69 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.480 who helped to put one of the caesars on the 70 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:23.360 throne by being very good at poisoning people and figuring out, 71 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:25.319 you know, just how to get around some of the 72 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.519 tricks that some of the leaders had. So she not 73 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:35.439 only did she help with some of the political machinations 74 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.680 at the time, but then she actually got sponsored sponsorship 75 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.720 for her own poisoning schools. So she wasn't just a 76 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:46.079 serial killer. She was I guess you would say she's 77 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.519 the earliest form of what we see on TV today. 78 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:54.279 The following she had her own disciples and students who 79 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:55.959 she sent out to murder other people. 80 00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:59.519 Yeah, and you really explained too. It's the environment of 81 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.680 the orisk detocrats and then the sort of their attitude 82 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.560 to people lesser than them, but also just because of 83 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.360 the other their wealth, no one really questioned even if 84 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.199 they witnessed something or were privy to something, to really 85 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:16.920 question it. And she was really hired basically as for 86 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:19.399 her poisoning skills, and that's what led to the school. 87 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:21.519 It was an incredible story, right, and. 88 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.680 That continued to the rest. You know, for many centuries, 89 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.240 the aristocrats were able to get away with whatever they 90 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.000 wanted to because they were pretty much untouchable, kind of 91 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.439 like bankers today, I guess, yeah, or the wealthy, the 92 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.879 weid but in particular, certain certain people in our society 93 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.439 who can commit crimes and we can't touch them. 94 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:52.879 Yes, absolutely. Now continue on another part of your book 95 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:57.360 that to signal out a single out basically as a 96 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.720 good example of your theory that your respose throughout this 97 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:01.959 entire examination. 98 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:07.160 Well, I really kind of. I mean, it started as 99 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.759 I just wanted to look at the history of serial murder, 100 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.720 because nobody had actually done that in book length form, 101 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:14.680 you know, I had, there were a few things here 102 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.000 and there in serial killer encyclopedias, but I wanted to 103 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:20.319 really look at it. And as as it began to 104 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.800 unfold for me, it was very clear that serial murder, 105 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:26.959 at least the document of ones that you know we 106 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:32.319 know about, began to manifest in particular ways in particular cultures. 107 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:35.600 So if you had a very religious culture, for example, 108 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:40.000 dominated by the Roman Catholic Church, a number of people 109 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:43.920 took on certain manifestations, like we had a whole bunch 110 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.959 of werewolves for the wives there who were you know, 111 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:51.319 tried as wolves, and if they had families, that was 112 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.399 a wolf pack, and they actually talked about and they 113 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:59.160 would actually rip out, you know, people's intestines with their 114 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.759 own teeth because they thought of themselves as werewolves. And 115 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:05.600 they had a whole story. But how they met a 116 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:08.800 guy in the woods who had a magic belt. You know, 117 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.160 when they put it on, they changed into a So 118 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.759 the culture actually influenced the manifestation of serial murder in 119 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:20.000 many ways, and I found that fascinating, and still that 120 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:21.079 still happens today. 121 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.519 Yes, it's the it's that psychology that you examined in 122 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.560 this as well. And just to go back a little 123 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:31.839 bit too, you also at the same time, which this 124 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.959 is what I found fascinating, is that every perspective is 125 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:38.319 kind of covered here. It's so comprehensive that you talk 126 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:42.000 about the cust of and having this privilege and the 127 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:47.920 and the the basically the stamp of approval from her 128 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:55.160 aristocratic benefactors. But in the end she was the enacted 129 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.800 at a horrible murder upon her. So tell us just 130 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.839 a little bit, but I think it's testament to what 131 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.560 people found entertaining or cathartic or whatever at that time. 132 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.040 I can't really say she was murdered, since I was 133 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.879 a state sanctioned execution, but what they thought I was 134 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:17.160 pretty interesting. They had her raped by a specially trained giraffe. 135 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.120 I always tell my students, I have no idea how 136 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.120 to go out doing this training. I leave that to 137 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.720 your imagination. And then you know, pulled apart and you know, 138 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.839 she was certainly entertainment for the masses. And I guess 139 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:34.960 that's what happens. When you're sponsored by someone in power 140 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.879 and that person falls from power, you're one of the 141 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:38.600 ones to go. 142 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:47.919 Absolutely. Now what you also talk about, this book really 143 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:55.240 does cover the parallel development of forensic evidence and the 144 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.919 whole gathering of forensic evidence and the science of it. Basically, 145 00:08:59.240 --> 00:08:59.679 it's all. 146 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.440 I'll tell you what, though, because when I was writing this, 147 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.759 I realized there were a number of really interesting forensic 148 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:10.440 stories that I just couldn't fit into this, and that 149 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:15.559 ended up becoming a sort of parallel book called Beating 150 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:19.480 the Devil's Game about really the start of all the 151 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.320 many different areas of forensic science. By these pioneers who 152 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.720 were determined to get science into the court room because 153 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.639 the courts didn't want them. So that was a little 154 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:32.159 bit too big of a story to tell in this one, 155 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.960 because The Human Predator is really about the history of 156 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:40.879 serial murder. But yeah, I mean it goes hand in hand, 157 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.960 because I actually have picked out a dozen and I 158 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.440 wrote this in a book called The Devil's Dozen. A 159 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.080 dozen serial murders that changed the face of forensic science, 160 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:55.279 that actually changed the way investigations were done because of 161 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.720 the particular either the method of the murders or the 162 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.960 form they were taking. They realized that they were up 163 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.000 against something that they had to they just they just 164 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.360 want equipped to handle and soor or Sometimes at the 165 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.000 very same time as a series of murders was going on, 166 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:16.840 somebody was innovating something in the sciences, and those two 167 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.919 things collided, if you will. For example, looking at trying 168 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:27.279 to type and do blood typing, and as they were 169 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:31.039 able to distinguish animal from human blood. We had this 170 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:38.159 really creepy serial killer, Ludwig Tesno, who was ripping kids 171 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:43.240 apart and also ripping animals apart. But whenever they thought 172 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.360 they caught him, he would say well, I you know, 173 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.960 I'm a furniture maker. I have all the dye. You know, 174 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:51.639 all the stains you see in my clothes are from 175 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:56.600 the dyes that I use. And so fortuitously they now 176 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.559 had a way to look at whether it's something was 177 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:04.559 blood or wasn't and also distinguish it between animal and 178 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.559 human blood. And as a result they were able to 179 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:10.200 prove that he, in fact was a murderer. 180 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:18.480 Right now, you do feature of some really interesting killers, 181 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:21.159 like we talked about in the introduction. And again if 182 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:23.759 if my pronunciation is wrong here my French isn't so good, 183 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.200 the Yieldie Rays we're talking about the fourteen hundred day. 184 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:30.279 Yeah, one of my favorites. 185 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:34.440 Yeah, you talk quite a bit about him where you 186 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:36.440 write quite a bit about him. So tell us the 187 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:36.960 story of. 188 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.559 This so interesting because you know here he's like the 189 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.120 confidant of Joan of arc who so you would think 190 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.200 someone as you know, her right hand man, so to speak, 191 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.879 someone like that would be would tend to be not 192 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.799 somebody you would think would become serial killer, and in 193 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:57.480 particular in the very brutal way that he did. But 194 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.240 he really he was the richest man in France at 195 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.879 the time, he was richer than the king. He had 196 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:09.399 a lot of castles, and he loved warfare. So the 197 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.399 whole Joan of Our campaign for him was not just 198 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.679 about you know, Joan of Arc hearing holy voices telling, 199 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.279 you know, guiding her, but also it was about you know, 200 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.120 being able to just get out there and kick some butt. 201 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:26.159 When she was captured and he was unable to do 202 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:29.360 anything about it, he didn't want to just go back 203 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.559 home to his castles. He got bored, and so he 204 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.759 then met up with some alchemists and you know, people 205 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.879 who were professed to be able to show him magical 206 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:45.919 things through the occult and as a result, he began 207 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:50.600 to get involved in sacrificing children and to the point 208 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.120 where this became really a bloodlust for him. And he 209 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:59.519 then would have these big dinner parties where were sacrificing 210 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.399 these children was the dessert. I mean he'd hang them 211 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:06.679 up on hooks, he'd rake them, he'd eviscerate them, disembowel them, 212 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.360 do all kinds of things to them, and then throw 213 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:12.639 them into the you know, the big fireplaces. And we 214 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:17.320 don't know how many children he actually killed, because you know, 215 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.399 his confession was was you know, we don't know. As 216 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.320 I said, we don't know. They definitely found human bones 217 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.759 in some of the fireplaces. Oddly, in my opinion, the 218 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:34.799 odd thing was that his relatives were not really objecting 219 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.679 so much to the child murder as they were to 220 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.799 the fact that he was draining the family coffers, because 221 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.440 he would do these things, and then he would put 222 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.759 all this money into the churches as if, I guess, 223 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:51.519 to balance out what he was the black stuff with 224 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:54.320 the white stuff, I guess. And so because he was 225 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.279 spending so much money and the churches, his relatives decided, 226 00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:59.559 you know, we got to put an end to this. 227 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.279 And so that's that's how it came to an end. 228 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:04.679 And I find that a lot in some of these 229 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.480 earlier centuries that people don't like the money leaving, and 230 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.200 that's when they really, you know, begin to object to 231 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:11.919 what's going on. 232 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.720 Yeah, well yeah, and you really you talk about that. 233 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.600 There was certainly a lot of witnesses who never contacted 234 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:23.679 any kind of authorities. And the other part of it 235 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.399 was that some of the characteristics that all killers seemed 236 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.039 to share, that not that all killers share the same characteristics, 237 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.279 but that this guy really loved to relive the horror 238 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:36.639 of his crimes the details and then attribute to his 239 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:40.240 lenient parents were to blame again another, yeah, not a 240 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:41.320 sort of characteristic. 241 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.519 That was a good way those lenient parents were to blame. Well, 242 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.600 you know, the thing is, if you're a psychopath, you 243 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.799 always look outside yourself to blame anybody and everybody. So 244 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.360 that's not surprise, but it's kind of interesting that back there, 245 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.840 you know, centuries ago, we have somebody you know, blaming 246 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:01.559 mom essentially or dad. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 247 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.919 And you say that a significant forensic development happened in 248 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.759 seventeen sixty four basically, and then in the book was 249 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:14.960 written there was translated essays on Crime and punishment. Tell 250 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.080 us a little bit why or what was the development 251 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:21.360 and why do you think was so significant. 252 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.720 Seventeen I did not memorize of a date to this book, 253 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:29.440 but I can tell me what you'd refer into criminology. 254 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.759 Basically, there was a posthumous reversal of a verdict, so 255 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:39.320 somebody was actually doing again, you know, forensic investigation here. 256 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:44.679 So the murder, it was originally murder, but through examination 257 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:51.519 it was determined with suicide. And at the same time, who. 258 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.879 Named the name of the person. I didn't. I didn't 259 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:55.519 memorize everybody's dates. 260 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.120 I don't have the name. Sorry, I don't have the 261 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.360 name either. Aw, she'll know that name. 262 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.360 Those I know the name. I don't know all the 263 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.840 dates of everything. I know that during eighteen hundred's criminology 264 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.120 was taking over, as well as some of the early 265 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:20.559 medical developments in terms of using autopsies, but not a 266 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.639 lot was going on. They were, you know, they were 267 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.120 looking for arsenic they were trying to find a way 268 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.600 to detect arsenic in the body. But at this point 269 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.000 I think that's that's even too early for the arsenic detection. 270 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:33.720 Aside from. 271 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.720 You were talking about Italy and France, and there was 272 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.240 some development in both those countries. Again, the book about 273 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:48.360 criminology was, you know, the Psychological Analysis Analysis of Criminal Behavior. 274 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.159 Criminology was basically born around that time because of the 275 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.320 work that was translated basically from an author in Italy 276 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.399 and it was translated in English, so essays on crime 277 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.680 and punishment. At the same time, you talk about how 278 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:10.240 science obviously was replacing religion as the dominant force politically 279 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:11.240 in society, not. 280 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:16.319 Easily, not easily. That's the whole point is that they 281 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:21.480 we are getting a number of people who believe in 282 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:25.000 science or a religion, but they are you know, being 283 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.119 imprisoned over it or losing their lives over it. And 284 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.160 so it's quite a struggle through the eighteenth and into 285 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.720 the nineteenth century to get attention on science. But even 286 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:41.400 as science was gaining respect, the courts were not accepting it. So, 287 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.680 you know, the religious step aside. The courts did not 288 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.880 want to change their traditions. And it really took some 289 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:55.200 of the pioneers like Lacasania, a pathologist in France, to 290 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.640 find sensational cases to attach themselves to so that the 291 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.319 publick would hear about it. Because you know, the public 292 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.599 they loved these stories the way they watch to see 293 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.519 SI today. They would read about all these criminal stories, 294 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.359 and so as they would read about some input that, 295 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.559 you know, some area of science added to the mix, 296 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.720 they would pressure the courts to have more of that. 297 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.839 And I thought that was pretty innovative in the nineteenth century. 298 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.519 Yes, absolutely, and there was the separate sort of innovations, 299 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.519 but obviously no one could obviously put all those things 300 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.240 together and turn it into some kind of science and 301 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:39.279 something that could be trainable. But there was little things happening, 302 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:44.599 like early recognition of fingerprints and that. 303 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.519 But even if that was messy because you had all 304 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.640 these people sort of vying for I'm the one who 305 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:55.440 discovered this, and they didn't have a good system. Also, 306 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.359 the guy who's doing the measurements, Bertillon, you know, he 307 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.839 had his in place where if he just take eleven 308 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.079 or thirteen separate measurements of somebody, no two people are 309 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.200 going to have the exact same measurements. And that he, 310 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:14.079 you know, had calculated through all these anthropological calculations to 311 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.400 be a science and he had managed to get not 312 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.160 only get this into the French legal system, but it 313 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.279 spread through Europe and into America and as fingerprints, you know, 314 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.680 it was and it was a difficult system because not 315 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.519 very many people could measure some of these offenders as 316 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:37.480 carefully as bertillone did. And also they didn't want to. 317 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:40.640 First of all, they didn't want to bother because it 318 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.079 was because the offenders would struggle and kick, and you know, 319 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.359 it wasn't easy to do. But then keeping the card 320 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.480 files was just an enormous job. And then looking through 321 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.640 the card files to see who had recintivated was another 322 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.759 enormous job. You didn't have computers of any kind, and 323 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:04.920 so as fingerprints began and to come into use, obviously 324 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.240 this was a much more compact way of looking at stuff. 325 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.119 But they had to prove themselves. I mean, this is 326 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.480 no easy thing to replace d'artionage or antipometry as it 327 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.880 is called. It was no easy thing to replace it 328 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.720 because you know, they already had taken great expense and 329 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.880 great effort to put it into place. And now that 330 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.319 you know, you want us to kick out our whole 331 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:31.799 system and replace it with fingerprints. That's hard. That's really 332 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:35.039 hard to get people to do, right. 333 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.160 But there is always those same sort of not the 334 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.599 same sort of but there's interesting parallels with resistance with 335 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.359 the FBI and its criminal profiling definitely, you know, controversy 336 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.839 early on with DNA and then obviously developed with landslide. 337 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.319 You can get lucky just about anywhere. 338 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.000 As your captain speaking, we've got clear runway and the 339 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.960 weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a 340 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.279 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 341 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.920 just these cash prizes add up quick. 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If we're going to talk about forensics. 362 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:04.880 There's this whole report in two thousand and nine that 363 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.640 came out to basically say, you know what, there's an 364 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:10.359 awful lot of areas calling them those forensic science that 365 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:11.440 are not science. 366 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:12.359 They are not. 367 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:16.759 Proven, and yet they're going into court and making jury's 368 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.519 think they have the aura of science and they're not 369 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.440 and they don't. And boy are we ever having a 370 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:28.359 lot of resistance in those disciplines because they want, they 371 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.799 want to be part of the frame of forensic science, 372 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:34.039 but they don't have, you know, the time of resources 373 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.119 to go about doing all the testing and controlled groups 374 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.079 and all of that. You know, very few things in 375 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.839 forensic science actually are DNA is one, toxicologies and others 376 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:52.160 of forensic chemistry, forensic biology, but fiber analysis, hair analysis, 377 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:58.079 these things have been identified as junk science in some cases, 378 00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:05.559 and odontology has put innocent people into prisons, handwriting analysis, 379 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.960 these things have not been proven to be scientific. And 380 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:14.279 so we're still getting resistance because they want to be 381 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.640 included under the umbrella forensic science. 382 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.519 And you also too, when you get psychiatric I mean, 383 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:22.880 you don't have it so much in the US, but 384 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.359 we have a completely different system here in Canada. What 385 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.599 will be accepted in terms of psychiatric or insanity defenses, 386 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:34.759 and some really well I can't even say liberal, it's 387 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.160 just it's incredible defenses. That's all I can say that. Again, 388 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:39.720 you can't say that's science. 389 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.480 I would say it's science. I know they like to 390 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:49.640 say behavioral science, but no it's not. It is not. 391 00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:55.039 Its clinical opinion and it was not the scientific method 392 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.680 behind it. So personally, I have a hard time. I'm watching, 393 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.359 you know, the Joey Arias trial right now as a 394 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:10.839 talk kid that PTSD like, oh please, yeah, there's no 395 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:16.200 science behind that testing, and so yeah, you won't. Although 396 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.839 I'm in forensic psychology, you'll never get me to say 397 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.240 that's a science except for a few areas like eyewitness 398 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.599 memory things like that that really have gone through scientific testing. 399 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.640 But clinical opinion no. 400 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.440 Yeah, and then they're learning to now the false confession too, 401 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.079