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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 2: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good evening, This is your host, Dan Zupanski, for the
Speaker 4: program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 4: history and the authors that have written about them, from
Speaker 4: Ancient Rome, through the Dark Ages to the Burgeoning West
Speaker 4: to the open highways of Earth in America, from the
Speaker 4: unconscionable exploits of French religious zealot Jills Deraye to such
Speaker 4: all American monsters as Jeffrey Dahmer and Alien. Warno's Katherine
Speaker 4: Ramsland makes an eye opening case for the existence of
Speaker 4: serial killers throughout time and offers a complete chronological record
Speaker 4: of the serial killer phenomena, as well as the parallel
Speaker 4: development of psychology, forensic science, and FBI profiling in the
Speaker 4: serial killer's evolving manifestation throughout human history. The book we're
Speaker 4: profiling this evening is The Human Predator, A historical Chronicle
Speaker 4: of serial murder and Forensic investigation, With my special guest,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Katherine Ramsland. Welcome to the program. And
Speaker 4: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kathlyn Ramsland, I'm
Speaker 4: happy to be here. I hope I pronounce your last
Speaker 4: name properly.
Speaker 6: Yep.
Speaker 4: Okay, great. First off, I'm sorry about making you again.
Speaker 4: We didn't get a chance to talk before the program.
Speaker 4: I wanted to just this is a great book. This
Speaker 4: is just us. Thank you mind blowing the information it's
Speaker 4: here that I've never read anywhere else. It's just a
Speaker 4: very very fascinating comprehensive examination. And let's get right into that.
Speaker 4: Take us back in history, because maybe you can tell
Speaker 4: us one of the contingents you have with this book
Speaker 4: that about serial killers always mean being in existence, even
Speaker 4: though maybe obviously we didn't use that term once upon
Speaker 4: a time. But take us back right from ancient Rome,
Speaker 4: as I explained in the introduction, tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about Rome and Greece, and tell us about the
Speaker 4: environment at that time, and tell us what was the
Speaker 4: tell us about that time?
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, we really only know about the kinds of
Speaker 6: serial killers for whom there's documentation. Certain many more serial
Speaker 6: killers slip through the cracks, But when you're looking at
Speaker 6: ancient Rome, for example, the documentation is really with the
Speaker 6: upper classes, and you know, we had a few attorneys
Speaker 6: who kept records and also some of the Roman leaders.
Speaker 6: So that's how we know about a woman named Locusta
Speaker 6: who helped to put one of the caesars on the
Speaker 6: throne by being very good at poisoning people and figuring out,
Speaker 6: you know, just how to get around some of the
Speaker 6: tricks that some of the leaders had. So she not
Speaker 6: only did she help with some of the political machinations
Speaker 6: at the time, but then she actually got sponsored sponsorship
Speaker 6: for her own poisoning schools. So she wasn't just a
Speaker 6: serial killer. She was I guess you would say she's
Speaker 6: the earliest form of what we see on TV today.
Speaker 6: The following she had her own disciples and students who
Speaker 6: she sent out to murder other people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you really explained too. It's the environment of
Speaker 4: the orisk detocrats and then the sort of their attitude
Speaker 4: to people lesser than them, but also just because of
Speaker 4: the other their wealth, no one really questioned even if
Speaker 4: they witnessed something or were privy to something, to really
Speaker 4: question it. And she was really hired basically as for
Speaker 4: her poisoning skills, and that's what led to the school.
Speaker 4: It was an incredible story, right, and.
Speaker 6: That continued to the rest. You know, for many centuries,
Speaker 6: the aristocrats were able to get away with whatever they
Speaker 6: wanted to because they were pretty much untouchable, kind of
Speaker 6: like bankers today, I guess, yeah, or the wealthy, the
Speaker 6: weid but in particular, certain certain people in our society
Speaker 6: who can commit crimes and we can't touch them.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. Now continue on another part of your book
Speaker 4: that to signal out a single out basically as a
Speaker 4: good example of your theory that your respose throughout this
Speaker 4: entire examination.
Speaker 6: Well, I really kind of. I mean, it started as
Speaker 6: I just wanted to look at the history of serial murder,
Speaker 6: because nobody had actually done that in book length form,
Speaker 6: you know, I had, there were a few things here
Speaker 6: and there in serial killer encyclopedias, but I wanted to
Speaker 6: really look at it. And as as it began to
Speaker 6: unfold for me, it was very clear that serial murder,
Speaker 6: at least the document of ones that you know we
Speaker 6: know about, began to manifest in particular ways in particular cultures.
Speaker 6: So if you had a very religious culture, for example,
Speaker 6: dominated by the Roman Catholic Church, a number of people
Speaker 6: took on certain manifestations, like we had a whole bunch
Speaker 6: of werewolves for the wives there who were you know,
Speaker 6: tried as wolves, and if they had families, that was
Speaker 6: a wolf pack, and they actually talked about and they
Speaker 6: would actually rip out, you know, people's intestines with their
Speaker 6: own teeth because they thought of themselves as werewolves. And
Speaker 6: they had a whole story. But how they met a
Speaker 6: guy in the woods who had a magic belt. You know,
Speaker 6: when they put it on, they changed into a So
Speaker 6: the culture actually influenced the manifestation of serial murder in
Speaker 6: many ways, and I found that fascinating, and still that
Speaker 6: still happens today.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's the it's that psychology that you examined in
Speaker 4: this as well. And just to go back a little
Speaker 4: bit too, you also at the same time, which this
Speaker 4: is what I found fascinating, is that every perspective is
Speaker 4: kind of covered here. It's so comprehensive that you talk
Speaker 4: about the cust of and having this privilege and the
Speaker 4: and the the basically the stamp of approval from her
Speaker 4: aristocratic benefactors. But in the end she was the enacted
Speaker 4: at a horrible murder upon her. So tell us just
Speaker 4: a little bit, but I think it's testament to what
Speaker 4: people found entertaining or cathartic or whatever at that time.
Speaker 6: I can't really say she was murdered, since I was
Speaker 6: a state sanctioned execution, but what they thought I was
Speaker 6: pretty interesting. They had her raped by a specially trained giraffe.
Speaker 6: I always tell my students, I have no idea how
Speaker 6: to go out doing this training. I leave that to
Speaker 6: your imagination. And then you know, pulled apart and you know,
Speaker 6: she was certainly entertainment for the masses. And I guess
Speaker 6: that's what happens. When you're sponsored by someone in power
Speaker 6: and that person falls from power, you're one of the
Speaker 6: ones to go.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Now what you also talk about, this book really
Speaker 4: does cover the parallel development of forensic evidence and the
Speaker 4: whole gathering of forensic evidence and the science of it. Basically,
Speaker 4: it's all.
Speaker 6: I'll tell you what, though, because when I was writing this,
Speaker 6: I realized there were a number of really interesting forensic
Speaker 6: stories that I just couldn't fit into this, and that
Speaker 6: ended up becoming a sort of parallel book called Beating
Speaker 6: the Devil's Game about really the start of all the
Speaker 6: many different areas of forensic science. By these pioneers who
Speaker 6: were determined to get science into the court room because
Speaker 6: the courts didn't want them. So that was a little
Speaker 6: bit too big of a story to tell in this one,
Speaker 6: because The Human Predator is really about the history of
Speaker 6: serial murder. But yeah, I mean it goes hand in hand,
Speaker 6: because I actually have picked out a dozen and I
Speaker 6: wrote this in a book called The Devil's Dozen. A
Speaker 6: dozen serial murders that changed the face of forensic science,
Speaker 6: that actually changed the way investigations were done because of
Speaker 6: the particular either the method of the murders or the
Speaker 6: form they were taking. They realized that they were up
Speaker 6: against something that they had to they just they just
Speaker 6: want equipped to handle and soor or Sometimes at the
Speaker 6: very same time as a series of murders was going on,
Speaker 6: somebody was innovating something in the sciences, and those two
Speaker 6: things collided, if you will. For example, looking at trying
Speaker 6: to type and do blood typing, and as they were
Speaker 6: able to distinguish animal from human blood. We had this
Speaker 6: really creepy serial killer, Ludwig Tesno, who was ripping kids
Speaker 6: apart and also ripping animals apart. But whenever they thought
Speaker 6: they caught him, he would say well, I you know,
Speaker 6: I'm a furniture maker. I have all the dye. You know,
Speaker 6: all the stains you see in my clothes are from
Speaker 6: the dyes that I use. And so fortuitously they now
Speaker 6: had a way to look at whether it's something was
Speaker 6: blood or wasn't and also distinguish it between animal and
Speaker 6: human blood. And as a result they were able to
Speaker 6: prove that he, in fact was a murderer.
Speaker 4: Right now, you do feature of some really interesting killers,
Speaker 4: like we talked about in the introduction. And again if
Speaker 4: if my pronunciation is wrong here my French isn't so good,
Speaker 4: the Yieldie Rays we're talking about the fourteen hundred day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, one of my favorites.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk quite a bit about him where you
Speaker 4: write quite a bit about him. So tell us the
Speaker 4: story of.
Speaker 6: This so interesting because you know here he's like the
Speaker 6: confidant of Joan of arc who so you would think
Speaker 6: someone as you know, her right hand man, so to speak,
Speaker 6: someone like that would be would tend to be not
Speaker 6: somebody you would think would become serial killer, and in
Speaker 6: particular in the very brutal way that he did. But
Speaker 6: he really he was the richest man in France at
Speaker 6: the time, he was richer than the king. He had
Speaker 6: a lot of castles, and he loved warfare. So the
Speaker 6: whole Joan of Our campaign for him was not just
Speaker 6: about you know, Joan of Arc hearing holy voices telling,
Speaker 6: you know, guiding her, but also it was about you know,
Speaker 6: being able to just get out there and kick some butt.
Speaker 6: When she was captured and he was unable to do
Speaker 6: anything about it, he didn't want to just go back
Speaker 6: home to his castles. He got bored, and so he
Speaker 6: then met up with some alchemists and you know, people
Speaker 6: who were professed to be able to show him magical
Speaker 6: things through the occult and as a result, he began
Speaker 6: to get involved in sacrificing children and to the point
Speaker 6: where this became really a bloodlust for him. And he
Speaker 6: then would have these big dinner parties where were sacrificing
Speaker 6: these children was the dessert. I mean he'd hang them
Speaker 6: up on hooks, he'd rake them, he'd eviscerate them, disembowel them,
Speaker 6: do all kinds of things to them, and then throw
Speaker 6: them into the you know, the big fireplaces. And we
Speaker 6: don't know how many children he actually killed, because you know,
Speaker 6: his confession was was you know, we don't know. As
Speaker 6: I said, we don't know. They definitely found human bones
Speaker 6: in some of the fireplaces. Oddly, in my opinion, the
Speaker 6: odd thing was that his relatives were not really objecting
Speaker 6: so much to the child murder as they were to
Speaker 6: the fact that he was draining the family coffers, because
Speaker 6: he would do these things, and then he would put
Speaker 6: all this money into the churches as if, I guess,
Speaker 6: to balance out what he was the black stuff with
Speaker 6: the white stuff, I guess. And so because he was
Speaker 6: spending so much money and the churches, his relatives decided,
Speaker 6: you know, we got to put an end to this.
Speaker 6: And so that's that's how it came to an end.
Speaker 6: And I find that a lot in some of these
Speaker 6: earlier centuries that people don't like the money leaving, and
Speaker 6: that's when they really, you know, begin to object to
Speaker 6: what's going on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well yeah, and you really you talk about that.
Speaker 4: There was certainly a lot of witnesses who never contacted
Speaker 4: any kind of authorities. And the other part of it
Speaker 4: was that some of the characteristics that all killers seemed
Speaker 4: to share, that not that all killers share the same characteristics,
Speaker 4: but that this guy really loved to relive the horror
Speaker 4: of his crimes the details and then attribute to his
Speaker 4: lenient parents were to blame again another, yeah, not a
Speaker 4: sort of characteristic.
Speaker 6: That was a good way those lenient parents were to blame. Well,
Speaker 6: you know, the thing is, if you're a psychopath, you
Speaker 6: always look outside yourself to blame anybody and everybody. So
Speaker 6: that's not surprise, but it's kind of interesting that back there,
Speaker 6: you know, centuries ago, we have somebody you know, blaming
Speaker 6: mom essentially or dad. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: And you say that a significant forensic development happened in
Speaker 4: seventeen sixty four basically, and then in the book was
Speaker 4: written there was translated essays on Crime and punishment. Tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit why or what was the development
Speaker 4: and why do you think was so significant.
Speaker 6: Seventeen I did not memorize of a date to this book,
Speaker 6: but I can tell me what you'd refer into criminology.
Speaker 4: Basically, there was a posthumous reversal of a verdict, so
Speaker 4: somebody was actually doing again, you know, forensic investigation here.
Speaker 4: So the murder, it was originally murder, but through examination
Speaker 4: it was determined with suicide. And at the same time, who.
Speaker 6: Named the name of the person. I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 6: memorize everybody's dates.
Speaker 4: I don't have the name. Sorry, I don't have the
Speaker 4: name either. Aw, she'll know that name.
Speaker 6: Those I know the name. I don't know all the
Speaker 6: dates of everything. I know that during eighteen hundred's criminology
Speaker 6: was taking over, as well as some of the early
Speaker 6: medical developments in terms of using autopsies, but not a
Speaker 6: lot was going on. They were, you know, they were
Speaker 6: looking for arsenic they were trying to find a way
Speaker 6: to detect arsenic in the body. But at this point
Speaker 6: I think that's that's even too early for the arsenic detection.
Speaker 6: Aside from.
Speaker 4: You were talking about Italy and France, and there was
Speaker 4: some development in both those countries. Again, the book about
Speaker 4: criminology was, you know, the Psychological Analysis Analysis of Criminal Behavior.
Speaker 4: Criminology was basically born around that time because of the
Speaker 4: work that was translated basically from an author in Italy
Speaker 4: and it was translated in English, so essays on crime
Speaker 4: and punishment. At the same time, you talk about how
Speaker 4: science obviously was replacing religion as the dominant force politically
Speaker 4: in society, not.
Speaker 6: Easily, not easily. That's the whole point is that they
Speaker 6: we are getting a number of people who believe in
Speaker 6: science or a religion, but they are you know, being
Speaker 6: imprisoned over it or losing their lives over it. And
Speaker 6: so it's quite a struggle through the eighteenth and into
Speaker 6: the nineteenth century to get attention on science. But even
Speaker 6: as science was gaining respect, the courts were not accepting it. So,
Speaker 6: you know, the religious step aside. The courts did not
Speaker 6: want to change their traditions. And it really took some
Speaker 6: of the pioneers like Lacasania, a pathologist in France, to
Speaker 6: find sensational cases to attach themselves to so that the
Speaker 6: publick would hear about it. Because you know, the public
Speaker 6: they loved these stories the way they watch to see
Speaker 6: SI today. They would read about all these criminal stories,
Speaker 6: and so as they would read about some input that,
Speaker 6: you know, some area of science added to the mix,
Speaker 6: they would pressure the courts to have more of that.
Speaker 6: And I thought that was pretty innovative in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, and there was the separate sort of innovations,
Speaker 4: but obviously no one could obviously put all those things
Speaker 4: together and turn it into some kind of science and
Speaker 4: something that could be trainable. But there was little things happening,
Speaker 4: like early recognition of fingerprints and that.
Speaker 6: But even if that was messy because you had all
Speaker 6: these people sort of vying for I'm the one who
Speaker 6: discovered this, and they didn't have a good system. Also,
Speaker 6: the guy who's doing the measurements, Bertillon, you know, he
Speaker 6: had his in place where if he just take eleven
Speaker 6: or thirteen separate measurements of somebody, no two people are
Speaker 6: going to have the exact same measurements. And that he,
Speaker 6: you know, had calculated through all these anthropological calculations to
Speaker 6: be a science and he had managed to get not
Speaker 6: only get this into the French legal system, but it
Speaker 6: spread through Europe and into America and as fingerprints, you know,
Speaker 6: it was and it was a difficult system because not
Speaker 6: very many people could measure some of these offenders as
Speaker 6: carefully as bertillone did. And also they didn't want to.
Speaker 6: First of all, they didn't want to bother because it
Speaker 6: was because the offenders would struggle and kick, and you know,
Speaker 6: it wasn't easy to do. But then keeping the card
Speaker 6: files was just an enormous job. And then looking through
Speaker 6: the card files to see who had recintivated was another
Speaker 6: enormous job. You didn't have computers of any kind, and
Speaker 6: so as fingerprints began and to come into use, obviously
Speaker 6: this was a much more compact way of looking at stuff.
Speaker 6: But they had to prove themselves. I mean, this is
Speaker 6: no easy thing to replace d'artionage or antipometry as it
Speaker 6: is called. It was no easy thing to replace it
Speaker 6: because you know, they already had taken great expense and
Speaker 6: great effort to put it into place. And now that
Speaker 6: you know, you want us to kick out our whole
Speaker 6: system and replace it with fingerprints. That's hard. That's really
Speaker 6: hard to get people to do, right.
Speaker 4: But there is always those same sort of not the
Speaker 4: same sort of but there's interesting parallels with resistance with
Speaker 4: the FBI and its criminal profiling definitely, you know, controversy
Speaker 4: early on with DNA and then obviously developed with landslide.
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Speaker 6: We have on today. If we're going to talk about forensics.
Speaker 6: There's this whole report in two thousand and nine that
Speaker 6: came out to basically say, you know what, there's an
Speaker 6: awful lot of areas calling them those forensic science that
Speaker 6: are not science.
Speaker 1: They are not.
Speaker 6: Proven, and yet they're going into court and making jury's
Speaker 6: think they have the aura of science and they're not
Speaker 6: and they don't. And boy are we ever having a
Speaker 6: lot of resistance in those disciplines because they want, they
Speaker 6: want to be part of the frame of forensic science,
Speaker 6: but they don't have, you know, the time of resources
Speaker 6: to go about doing all the testing and controlled groups
Speaker 6: and all of that. You know, very few things in
Speaker 6: forensic science actually are DNA is one, toxicologies and others
Speaker 6: of forensic chemistry, forensic biology, but fiber analysis, hair analysis,
Speaker 6: these things have been identified as junk science in some cases,
Speaker 6: and odontology has put innocent people into prisons, handwriting analysis,
Speaker 6: these things have not been proven to be scientific. And
Speaker 6: so we're still getting resistance because they want to be
Speaker 6: included under the umbrella forensic science.
Speaker 4: And you also too, when you get psychiatric I mean,
Speaker 4: you don't have it so much in the US, but
Speaker 4: we have a completely different system here in Canada. What
Speaker 4: will be accepted in terms of psychiatric or insanity defenses,
Speaker 4: and some really well I can't even say liberal, it's
Speaker 4: just it's incredible defenses. That's all I can say that. Again,
Speaker 4: you can't say that's science.
Speaker 6: I would say it's science. I know they like to
Speaker 6: say behavioral science, but no it's not. It is not.
Speaker 6: Its clinical opinion and it was not the scientific method
Speaker 6: behind it. So personally, I have a hard time. I'm watching,
Speaker 6: you know, the Joey Arias trial right now as a
Speaker 6: talk kid that PTSD like, oh please, yeah, there's no
Speaker 6: science behind that testing, and so yeah, you won't. Although
Speaker 6: I'm in forensic psychology, you'll never get me to say
Speaker 6: that's a science except for a few areas like eyewitness
Speaker 6: memory things like that that really have gone through scientific testing.
Speaker 6: But clinical opinion no.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then they're learning to now the false confession too,
Speaker 4: and they can almost look at cases and go wow
Speaker 4: that this could be a good example of that because
Speaker 4: of you know, and yeah, so we won't. We won't
Speaker 4: dwell on that too much anyway. You do include some
Speaker 4: very very interesting sort of the rise of the serial
Speaker 4: killer phenomena in the US, and you talk about two
Speaker 4: brothers in particular, and then there's a story soon after that.
Speaker 4: We this just blew my mind. I really, it was
Speaker 4: just such an incredible story. I thought I was reading
Speaker 4: a fictional horror book. But Makai Wiley Harp, Yeah, the
Speaker 4: Harp brothers, yea, these fascinating characters.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they are America's first serial killer on record. Again,
Speaker 6: I'm always gonna qualify it as that because we there
Speaker 6: may certainly be people that we don't have records about.
Speaker 6: But they are an interesting group or you know, in
Speaker 6: that group. But you know, they they kidnapped women to
Speaker 6: make them into their wives, They killed their own children,
Speaker 6: and they killed you know, right and left, and then
Speaker 6: they got separated. One of them, you know, was captured
Speaker 6: and killed and then the other one finally was as well.
Speaker 6: They just were kind of wild people who did what
Speaker 6: they wanted. And and there's a team that's that's really
Speaker 6: a team killer situation where we have of a team
Speaker 6: chemistry going on where they feel perfectly licensed basically to
Speaker 6: do whatever they're doing because the other person things is
Speaker 6: acceptable too. So, yeah, those two are interesting and they're
Speaker 6: not well known. A lot of people make the statement
Speaker 6: that HH Holmes, for example, almost a century later, is
Speaker 6: America's first serial killer, but no, he's not. They are right,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 4: It was interesting too, as you say that unlike the
Speaker 4: serial killer today it sticks to sort of one m
Speaker 4: O or one signature. These guys were all over the place.
Speaker 4: They're victims, no victimology, typology. These guys kill that, like
Speaker 4: you say, almost that, random relatives, anyone, strangers, babies. What
Speaker 4: I found was really fascinating And maybe you can tell me,
Speaker 4: because I just can't remember which serial killer. I thought
Speaker 4: this was a similarity from a you know, a recent
Speaker 4: serial killer. These guys put stones inside the abdomens of
Speaker 4: their victims to dump them in the rivers.
Speaker 5: We have.
Speaker 6: Scary Ridgeway, Green River killer did that as well as
Speaker 6: an Oregon killer. Uh brutos also would wait, would wait
Speaker 6: people down in the river. There's another guy who did that,
Speaker 6: but yeah, the Green River Gary Ridgeway.
Speaker 4: Yeah. But like you said with this, with this killer,
Speaker 4: they just didn't stick to any These two, this duo
Speaker 4: didn't stick to any kind of m O or signature.
Speaker 4: They just they would kill people in a variety of ways,
Speaker 4: with a variety of weapons and for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, one of the things that when I
Speaker 6: teach a course on extreme offenders, and we'd spent a
Speaker 6: good eight weeks and serial killers, and I start out
Speaker 6: with the myths, the myths, the twenty myths out there
Speaker 6: of serial murder, one of which is they always stick
Speaker 6: to the same m O, or they always use the
Speaker 6: same weapon, or they have a victim type. These are
Speaker 6: myths that we get from fiction, and so and so
Speaker 6: people are surprised to hear about some of the Hout
Speaker 6: brothers who sort of would kill any which way with
Speaker 6: whatever was handy and didn't matter. They had no victim type. Particularly,
Speaker 6: they're surprised to hear that. And yet we do have
Speaker 6: quite a few killers like that, quite a few. They'll
Speaker 6: do what works, that's the point. If they want to kill,
Speaker 6: they'll use whatever method they want to and they're not
Speaker 6: going to stop. And wonder am I fitting the textbook definition?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely. Now, at the same time you talk about
Speaker 4: just a little bit around eighteen hundred was the newly
Speaker 4: formed US Marshals. Just before that, maybe thirteen years or so, well,
Speaker 4: pardon me, eighteen nineteen, the British system of justice was
Speaker 4: set up, and then what it was. This is the
Speaker 4: most amazing story. And I mean I thought I read
Speaker 4: almost everything was unbelievable. This is the case of doctor
Speaker 4: Lolori's Yeah, just touching about me and is fascinating rich.
Speaker 4: The rich couple and the fascinating They had some they
Speaker 4: kept slaves, as was the custom at the time, but
Speaker 4: a fire broke out in their home. And please tell
Speaker 4: us about how the victims were.
Speaker 6: They were what we call experimenters. We have a number
Speaker 6: of healthcare seria killers like this. They would of course
Speaker 6: they because they were the masters and they owned the slaves.
Speaker 6: They could do whatever they wanted. They had some medical background,
Speaker 6: and so they were experimenting on these rushed people, doing
Speaker 6: things like breaking their bones and having them heal at
Speaker 6: awkward angles, chaining them up, starving them, burning them, doing
Speaker 6: all kinds of stuff to them to just see what
Speaker 6: they could get. And this was and this is you know,
Speaker 6: this is a house that's in the midst of the
Speaker 6: French quarters, very very visible. But they felt they had
Speaker 6: this thing that I call narcissistic immunity, the sense that
Speaker 6: you can't catch me. I can do whatever I want
Speaker 6: to and there's nothing to do about it. And the
Speaker 6: fact is they did get away with it because they
Speaker 6: got away. But when the fire broke out, you know,
Speaker 6: the firefighters found these people in cages or see one
Speaker 6: person that was sort of like walking around like a
Speaker 6: crab because all the bones were broken and reset in
Speaker 6: odd ways. And yeah, it's a really disgusting story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the thing I found was just fascinating at that time.
Speaker 4: This is eighteen thirty four. They had turned a man
Speaker 4: surgically into a woman.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right in.
Speaker 4: Eighteen thirty four. And again you had the human crab
Speaker 4: where they were and it was all kinds of dissection mutilation.
Speaker 6: Then, yeah, yes it was.
Speaker 4: It was a real chamber of horrors. Incredible again, and
Speaker 4: other story that, you know, that's the first I've ever heard,
Speaker 4: and that that's an amazing tale. Who needs horror?
Speaker 6: I you know, I don't read fiction much anymore because
Speaker 6: I get plenty of that in just reading these stories. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I used to read horror when I was young, and
Speaker 4: I just just graduate to this stuff, which is true horror.
Speaker 4: That's all nice.
Speaker 6: I used to write horror stories. I don't need to anymore.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty horrifying. When I was reading that, I
Speaker 4: was going, WHOA, this is this is a story for sure.
Speaker 4: Now you you talk about a serendipitous discovery by a
Speaker 4: newspaper manager of a near failing US newspaper was about
Speaker 4: to shift the popular popular perception about murder and its investigation,
Speaker 4: and this is the New York Herald and James Gordon
Speaker 4: Bennett what did he do? And tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about yellow journalism and how did he how did
Speaker 4: he capitalize on maybe what we're talking about right now.
Speaker 6: Well, just you know, his newspaper wasn't he was trying
Speaker 6: to get this startup newspaper going and wasn't selling, and
Speaker 6: he heard about a murder in a local brothel and
Speaker 6: he just went He went to the site. He interviewed
Speaker 6: people that that hadn't been done before, and began to
Speaker 6: put these these sort of erotic details on the front
Speaker 6: pages in ways that had never been done before. And
Speaker 6: while did that sell, he learned very quickly what tabloid
Speaker 6: journalists that's all about. By talking about you know, you
Speaker 6: have the beautiful but fallen a woman, you know, they
Speaker 6: and they created stories about these people, whether they were
Speaker 6: true or not, didn't matter what they created these these
Speaker 6: things that entertained the public. And the alleged offender was
Speaker 6: a fairly well off guy. So you have the handsome
Speaker 6: guy who who's responsible for murdering the fallen pretty woman,
Speaker 6: you know, unless she's the vile evil, you know, prostitute,
Speaker 6: and and he's he's a victim of her. He so
Speaker 6: dependent on what side you were taken because of the
Speaker 6: newspapers then got into the act and they would take
Speaker 6: a different side. And you know, so that became just
Speaker 6: huge public news and forced journalists from other cities to
Speaker 6: come to New York and cover it. Otherwise their put
Speaker 6: their papers weren't going to tell So this really became
Speaker 6: the start of of what we see today really in
Speaker 6: all this tabloid journalism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he really was super successful with this too.
Speaker 4: He couldn't even keep up and it really did it.
Speaker 6: Helen Jewett was the prostitutes name. The murder of Helen
Speaker 6: Jewett was quite an amazing story. But it was his
Speaker 6: his boldness of just saying, you know, I'm going over
Speaker 6: to the scene. They got him in, they let him
Speaker 6: see her. He described it just right so that they
Speaker 6: would have would have this kind of allure to it.
Speaker 6: And then he interviewed the woman who around the brothel.
Speaker 6: Never had that kind of thing had not been done before.
Speaker 6: So he put himself right in the middle of the
Speaker 6: story as a journalist, as an investigative journalist.
Speaker 4: Yes, and he seemed to ask every conceivable question. But
Speaker 4: he also did the very first what I guess the
Speaker 4: equivalent of what a crime scene photo would have done
Speaker 4: is all the details that those people were curious about,
Speaker 4: what did the body look like? And it had and
Speaker 4: he understood the public was interested in that. I guess
Speaker 4: he said, hey, I'm interested in the public will be interested. Well,
Speaker 4: we got to lose, and he was right, and it
Speaker 4: still dictates today in most successful papers. Anyway. I mean,
Speaker 4: I think what's interesting too when you can go back
Speaker 4: two hundred three hundred years if you think people are
Speaker 4: deviant now, it was amazing. It was amazing the savagery
Speaker 4: years ago, even two hundred, three hundred and five hundred,
Speaker 4: all throughout history. But also the audience, the appetite for
Speaker 4: people getting retribution was incredible.
Speaker 6: Definitely, and you know, people didn't want to act as
Speaker 6: if they were actually reading this stuff, but of course,
Speaker 6: you know, everybody was. It just became you had to know,
Speaker 6: you had to know so you could talk about it,
Speaker 6: and then you had to go to court, and so
Speaker 6: the whole trial became a big sensation.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, Now poison seems to be the method that
Speaker 4: women enact murder, but it also again, I've read this before,
Speaker 4: but you again re really reinforced this that people don't
Speaker 4: think women are so capable of murder as maybe men.
Speaker 4: But you just spell that with some very very good
Speaker 4: examples like Marianne Cotton. Maybe tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: about a narcissistic psychopath. Mari Anne Cotton.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, first of all, a dead victim is
Speaker 6: as dead as any other, no matter whether they're shot
Speaker 6: or poisoned, they're stabbed, or as sure, So that's just
Speaker 6: as violent and violent as anything else. Women are pretty much,
Speaker 6: i'd have to say, smarter about it because they get
Speaker 6: away with Those who are serial killers generally go for
Speaker 6: longer payers than men do and get away with it
Speaker 6: because they're quieter killers. Now, a predator is going to
Speaker 6: choose victims for all of which they can have control.
Speaker 6: So you know, five 't two one hundred pounds. Woman
Speaker 6: is not going to choose a great, big guy that
Speaker 6: she's going to choose children. She's going to choose other women,
Speaker 6: you know, whatever it is, family members, and she'll use
Speaker 6: the weapon that she can get hold of and tip.
Speaker 6: For for many centuries, the best weapon for women was
Speaker 6: poisoned because that's what they used for you know, and
Speaker 6: to clear out the rats or clean their houses, or
Speaker 6: you know, go down to the drug store and get
Speaker 6: it in ways that they weren't able to purchase other
Speaker 6: types of weapons. So we really don't know that women
Speaker 6: gravitate to poison necessarily so much is that that was
Speaker 6: just the most practical tool for them. But we absolutely
Speaker 6: have women who will pick up a gun and shoot.
Speaker 6: We've had one very overweight women rolled on her kids.
Speaker 6: We've had them use chain saws and ice picks and knives.
Speaker 6: Of course, they certainly will will kill with other means
Speaker 6: if that's what they're inclined to do, and we have
Speaker 6: lots of lots of examples of that. Now do they
Speaker 6: kill for sexual purposes, well, we have some. We have
Speaker 6: a few cases where they do, and so they actually
Speaker 6: got addicted sexually to murder. But more often they're killing
Speaker 6: for status improvement or self enrichment. So Mary on Cotton,
Speaker 6: for example, was, as they say, an attractive woman. When
Speaker 6: I see pictures of her, I don't think so, but
Speaker 6: you know, I'm a woman, so maybe I don't know anyway,
Speaker 6: So she's an attractive woman who you know, got herself.
Speaker 6: Mary got kids. She would during these days in England
Speaker 6: in the middle of the nineteenth century, you can ensure
Speaker 6: you know, family members. So she figured out pretty pretty
Speaker 6: quickly you wanted to make some money, it's sure people
Speaker 6: empoison them. So she would see, you know, somebody of
Speaker 6: higher status and figure, you know, I got to get
Speaker 6: rid of this family in order to get that guy.
Speaker 6: So she'd you know, go through her children and husbands
Speaker 6: and get rid of them, move on to the next one,
Speaker 6: get rid of and then if she sees yet another
Speaker 6: way to prove her status, she'd move on to the next.
Speaker 6: Andi She killed about twenty people. And again this is
Speaker 6: an interesting one is when she killed the neighbor's pigs
Speaker 6: that somebody said, wait a minute here, oh, this is
Speaker 6: not gonna happen. But also she had killed a boy
Speaker 6: who was I can't remember, like a step son or something,
Speaker 6: and the doctor got suspicious about that one, and he's
Speaker 6: the one who actually did an autopsy and found the arsenic.
Speaker 6: But even at that, even so, they used arsenic in
Speaker 6: the wallpapers and in hair dressing and things like that.
Speaker 6: So she did have a pretty active defense in terms of, well,
Speaker 6: how do you know these people didn't just lick the
Speaker 6: wallpaper like that, because they did not have very precise equipment,
Speaker 6: especially among the lower classes, which she was a member of.
Speaker 6: They didn't have very size ways of measuring these things,
Speaker 6: nor much inclination to do so. So she got away
Speaker 6: with it for quite a long time, but she was
Speaker 6: hanged in the end.
Speaker 4: Yes, you include another story about the Benders, and we
Speaker 4: won't go through this because we would, you know, be
Speaker 4: about a five hour program. But you talk about the
Speaker 4: benders and part of their part of their reason to
Speaker 4: kill was theft, and they would steal their victims' money
Speaker 4: and then hit him with sledgehammer and throw them in
Speaker 4: a hold. And again, it's very interesting to me when
Speaker 4: you when you understand when you see the psychopathic killer mind,
Speaker 4: and then you realize that some of sometimes they have
Speaker 4: a partner, a wife, a girlfriend, or a daughter or
Speaker 4: a friend, or there's two or three people David Parker Ray,
Speaker 4: you know, three two or three people acting on his
Speaker 4: behalf even scarier, you know, very very scary one.
Speaker 6: Typically you have if you have families killing together, that's
Speaker 6: typically that's stub and Richmond. But someone like David Parker
Speaker 6: Ray was able to too because he was a sadist
Speaker 6: and he was able to acquire I don't know if
Speaker 6: I call him disciples, but in a way they were
Speaker 6: sort of a little murder cult, not because they didn't
Speaker 6: all participate in everything, but he did manage to acquire
Speaker 6: people around him who would help him get victims and
Speaker 6: help him torture people. I actually saw some of his
Speaker 6: torture videos, and I'm going to tell you that strong stuff.
Speaker 6: It was very hard to watch, very hard.
Speaker 4: Well it's hard to read. Yeah, it's even hard to read,
Speaker 4: so I can't even imagine seeing it. Yeah, some stuff
Speaker 4: I don't want.
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Speaker 4: Really want to visualize it?
Speaker 6: Oh no, and I I've seen you know, because of
Speaker 6: the position I'm in, I guess I do get to
Speaker 6: see some of these things. And I recently saw Luca Magnata.
Speaker 6: Here's a Canadian for you, Luca Megan.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna mention that.
Speaker 6: Holy cow, that is one disgusting tape that he made
Speaker 6: of killing and this member in his roommate. I mean,
Speaker 6: it's just and it's too music, of course, and as
Speaker 6: he's carving him up, and I don't know if he
Speaker 6: did eat pieces, but certainly pretended to. That was that
Speaker 6: was very hard to watch, very hard because it's quite graphic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think what's happening And I've said it
Speaker 4: on the program with another guest when we were discussing
Speaker 4: sort of the new killer phenomena, I don't think people
Speaker 4: have time to do forty nine or seventy six murders
Speaker 4: or you know, the numbers are too staggering, you know,
Speaker 4: and I think, you know, based on and this is
Speaker 4: always and we'll get back to this. It will segue
Speaker 4: back into how society really seems to dictate the the
Speaker 4: you know, the psychological and sociological attitudes and the environment
Speaker 4: that's that's pervasive and and it's that that's there that
Speaker 4: that that shapes the way killers act. And we'll talk
Speaker 4: about that. But what I want to mention was that
Speaker 4: Luca Magnata, we had gentleman in Edmonton that filmed a murder. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 4: and then the killer that I was involved with who
Speaker 4: wanted to talk and talk and make drawings and become famous.
Speaker 4: Is that. I think a lot of these, a lot
Speaker 4: of killers, and I think this is what we'll see, unfortunately,
Speaker 4: is that people want to get pain, that instant fame
Speaker 4: and of course the Facebook and the videos and YouTube
Speaker 4: and that instant fame. And Luca Magnot is the perfect
Speaker 4: example of a guy that was cultivating his fame and planning.
Speaker 4: Talk about fantasy, you know, lead again. Another thing in
Speaker 4: your book you talk about a big issue is the
Speaker 4: fantasy turning to murder, violent fantasy leading to So let's
Speaker 4: let's take this what we were just talking about and
Speaker 4: talk about how after you know, examples of the vendors
Speaker 4: and the and the poisonings and then the you know,
Speaker 4: all the way back from Rome, how does the modern
Speaker 4: serial killer evolve and why and what are the conditions
Speaker 4: in society that sort of shape that killer.
Speaker 6: Well, there's no profile of a serial killer there's no
Speaker 6: I mean, there's a lot of diversity in terms of
Speaker 6: the developmental factors. There isn't any one thing that makes
Speaker 6: somebody into serial killer. Quite a few, I'd say the
Speaker 6: majority are first of all psychopathic, and if we as
Speaker 6: we're finding out that certainly seems to be implicated with
Speaker 6: brain development in terms of very poor development in the
Speaker 6: moral centers, the decision making centers. So that's one thing.
Speaker 6: But you know, quite a few have head injuries, not
Speaker 6: all of them, but if head injuries hit a certain
Speaker 6: part of the brain where now they have some kind
Speaker 6: of discontrol over their compulsions, especially violent compulsions, that could
Speaker 6: be part of it. But we have a lot of
Speaker 6: different motivations for why people commit serial murder. It isn't
Speaker 6: isn't just sexually compelled. It's as we've already talked about,
Speaker 6: you know, greed and self enrichment, power over others. Anger.
Speaker 6: Sometimes people kill for no particular reason at all, just
Speaker 6: they just you know, I felt like it today, whatever.
Speaker 6: So first you have to look at what's the motive.
Speaker 6: Some people killed just because they want to become serial killers,
Speaker 6: that's their big aspiration. Bt K. Dennis Raider, was it
Speaker 6: was that kind of person where he just wanted to
Speaker 6: be one of the elite serial killers, and so he
Speaker 6: practiced and he studied and set up the conditions so
Speaker 6: that he could become that. So you really have to
Speaker 6: look at the in a case by case in a
Speaker 6: way of what is it in their life that is
Speaker 6: so inspired them or compelled them toward doing something like this.
Speaker 6: And it's hard to say generically what makes somebody become
Speaker 6: a serial killer, but it's certainly true that and I
Speaker 6: think among mass murderers, it's certainly true that today's violence
Speaker 6: is choreographed. It's highly choreographed for effect. You go into
Speaker 6: a movie theater now instead of a mall, you go
Speaker 6: into an elementary school now instead of a college campus.
Speaker 6: Do you know what I mean? Because you're trying for
Speaker 6: shock value as much as you're trying for numbers, and
Speaker 6: so you're seeing people really choreographing it to get that
Speaker 6: same going, because it's it's just it's not about the
Speaker 6: numbers anymore. It's about how shocking you were, how utterly
Speaker 6: unthinkable your act was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now do you note any difference
Speaker 4: in murder, like, say in the twentieth century, when we
Speaker 4: have all the cases that you know. The FBI and
Speaker 4: it's criminal profiling pioneering interviewed thirty or thirty six infamous
Speaker 4: serial killers and the profile.
Speaker 6: Thirty six interviews, but only twenty nine or serial killers.
Speaker 6: And they didn't even interview all of them.
Speaker 4: But go ahead, okay. But so this was a small
Speaker 4: group of people in the they created criminal profiling from
Speaker 4: those interviews.
Speaker 6: I'll say that's not true. They were already profiling, and
Speaker 6: since they were on the road teaching, they thought, why
Speaker 6: don't we start interviewing people. Now here's the problem. Some
Speaker 6: of the people interviewed weren't very articulate, or they were
Speaker 6: psychotic or something. So they ended up basically interviewing twenty
Speaker 6: of serial killers twenty nine incarcerated white serial killers who
Speaker 6: were articulate enough to talk to them. It's not a
Speaker 6: very representative sample. It's small, and it's unrepresentative. First of all,
Speaker 6: no end all males, and had it dependent on where
Speaker 6: they were at the time, so they didn't pick them
Speaker 6: according to let's try to get a representation here. But
Speaker 6: it did begin to found their database, so I give
Speaker 6: them credit for that. The problem was that they wrote
Speaker 6: a number of articles off of that small, unrepresentative sample.
Speaker 6: And that's where many of our serial killer myths now
Speaker 6: come from, Like that they're smarter than the average person,
Speaker 6: and stuff like that, pusey are smarter. You pick the
Speaker 6: smartest ones you could find to talk to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The other thing was too, is that you know,
Speaker 4: black serial killers or people of any other color other
Speaker 4: than white, weren't represented. And again that's another myth is
Speaker 4: being you know, dispelled quite easily.
Speaker 6: It's quite easy.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't the what's it called the triad of.
Speaker 6: Oh, that McDonald triad is totally bogus. There is not
Speaker 6: one piece of research evidence that supports it. I wrote
Speaker 6: a blog about this and I got like eight thousand
Speaker 6: hits on it. There's not one. It was proposed again
Speaker 6: with an unrepresentative sample by a guy named MacDonald, and
Speaker 6: I think it was nineteen sixty three about the bed wetting,
Speaker 6: fire setting and cruelty to animals. If these were at
Speaker 6: somehow or other, these ended up becoming the precursor predictive
Speaker 6: qualities of a serial killer. Yeah, that came from I
Speaker 6: don't know, because that's not at all what McDonald proposed,
Speaker 6: but because he gave this simple formula. It ended up
Speaker 6: being subsumed by criminologists who then passed it along as
Speaker 6: if now we know that people who have these three
Speaker 6: traits and behaviors are definitely prone to possibly becoming serial codes.
Speaker 6: But there is not one shred of research that indicates
Speaker 6: that MacDonald triad is a predictive factor, not one thing.
Speaker 4: Well, I found it amazing from the very first time
Speaker 4: I ever read it. And I've never read any of
Speaker 4: that information about serial killers. And I've been reading about
Speaker 4: serial killers for quite a few years now, so I
Speaker 4: never read any of that history in any I was
Speaker 4: a young boy. There's a lot of guys doing a
Speaker 4: lot of things to cats and all kinds of animals,
Speaker 4: and thank god, we've come a little well, we've come
Speaker 4: a little ways from there, you know, in general acceptance anyway.
Speaker 4: But there would have been a lot of serial killers
Speaker 4: I would have looked over my shoulder or because same
Speaker 4: with fires. I mean, some of this stuff is not
Speaker 4: that deviant, really, yeah, but no, the you know, I wasn't.
Speaker 4: I was talking about rest of you know, Robert K.
Speaker 4: Wrestler and John Douglas and some of the stuff they've done. Now,
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of research and a lot of
Speaker 4: the development and people have taken off from that starting
Speaker 4: point and have still studied. Tell us a few more
Speaker 4: of the perceived myths or the popular myths about serial
Speaker 4: killers as well.
Speaker 6: There's very few female serial killers. In fact, there are
Speaker 6: quite a few females, And we talked about low Custer,
Speaker 6: who's one of our first documented The person with the
Speaker 6: most victims and record is female. We have quite a
Speaker 6: few femal killers. Some of the other myths or that
Speaker 6: they always go they always go for the same type
Speaker 6: of victim, and that came basically from Bundy, and he
Speaker 6: even he said, I don't look for girls with their
Speaker 6: hair part in the middle. First of all, that was
Speaker 6: the style of the seventies, the all girls have their
Speaker 6: hair part of the middle. But if you really look
Speaker 6: at his victims, it's all over the place. He's got bronze,
Speaker 6: he's got girls with short hair. I mean that that
Speaker 6: was a silly myth that grew up around Bundy, that
Speaker 6: they secretly want to be caught. That's a good one. No,
Speaker 6: they don't. They want to do what they're doing. That's
Speaker 6: their addiction. They don't want to be caught. So that's
Speaker 6: another one. And the FBI actually put out a document
Speaker 6: in two thousand and five based on an international serial
Speaker 6: killer conference that they had. Were they numbered I guess
Speaker 6: maybe eight eight of these myths that they wanted to
Speaker 6: put aside a that there's a profile of a serial killer.
Speaker 6: There is no such thing as profile and the serial killer.
Speaker 6: So that was one. Trying to think of the ones
Speaker 6: they said that they are you can tell where the
Speaker 6: look in their eyes. I hear that one from cops
Speaker 6: all the time. No, no, no, you can't. Only in
Speaker 6: retrospect can you do something like that. You can tell
Speaker 6: whether they're are that they're always insane. Obviously that's not true.
Speaker 6: They're most of these psychopathic predators. Or also that they're
Speaker 6: always psychopaths, That too, is not true, because we definitely
Speaker 6: have those who have had remorse, who've turned themselves in
Speaker 6: or committed suicide. We've definitely had those who have not
Speaker 6: exhibited psychopathic traits. There. It's not a big percentage, but
Speaker 6: still they're they're out there that they can't stop, Yes
Speaker 6: they can. We've had quite a few serial killers stop
Speaker 6: for a their variety of reasons. So you get but
Speaker 6: to get this stuff sort of built up in the media,
Speaker 6: and it's hard for them to let go. And I
Speaker 6: know whenever I'm interviewed, if there's some series of crimes
Speaker 6: going on, they catch the person, they always say, does
Speaker 6: this stick the profile? Like they didn't want to hear
Speaker 6: there is no profile against which to fit. And that's
Speaker 6: I know because I work with I know Wrestler and
Speaker 6: Douglas and I worked with both of them, and I
Speaker 6: know people at the FBI, and it just aggravates them
Speaker 6: that people think there's a profile and a serial killer
Speaker 6: there isn't.
Speaker 4: There's no time to.
Speaker 6: People to let go of that.
Speaker 4: Well, certainly these myths have been perpetrated, and apart me, perpetuated,
Speaker 4: like you say, in fiction and nonfiction as well. The
Speaker 4: CVC was doing a sorry Canadian Broadcasting Corporation was doing
Speaker 4: a story about a young woman who was suspected and
Speaker 4: I guess maybe she even confessed to killing some pets.
Speaker 4: And then they threw out that triad of you know,
Speaker 4: of predictability on serial killer and they were trying to
Speaker 4: table some kind of legislation, legislation to keep her incarcerated
Speaker 4: over something that she was planning. She was talking about.
Speaker 4: She wrote a song about what she was going to do,
Speaker 4: and I went, this is incredible.
Speaker 6: The Cannibal cop convicted over his thoughts. It's a very
Speaker 6: scary president, in my opinion, especially to those of us
Speaker 6: who write dark things. Very scary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean the thing is
Speaker 4: that there's a there's usually they have enough problems with
Speaker 4: just direct evidence. So yeah, taking stuff like that and
Speaker 4: bringing that to a jury, I don't know. Yeah, it's
Speaker 4: it prejudices a jury by talking about that stuff, and
Speaker 4: so I think it clouds a decision on an important
Speaker 4: decision on whether that was a plan and a conspiracy
Speaker 4: and he taking any steps towards that.
Speaker 6: So well, you know, we have all these these TV
Speaker 6: shows that are getting so incredibly over the top with violence,
Speaker 6: criminal minds, the following now we have Hannibal starting up
Speaker 6: so over the top, and then you pick a jury
Speaker 6: out of people who've been viewing these things or hearing
Speaker 6: about them. It becomes these verdicts are highly emotional, and
Speaker 6: who's to blame? And they can't be to blame because
Speaker 6: you know, we really work them into a frenzy over
Speaker 6: these monsters and how disgusting and grotesque they are and
Speaker 6: how they torture and dismember and cannibalize people. I mean,
Speaker 6: we're constantly putting that in people's faces because we're searching
Speaker 6: forever more shocking and jarring and disturbing content with which
Speaker 6: to entertain them. So you can't really blame juries for saying,
Speaker 6: you know what, I want to lock these people up.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean it was deemed admissible of what
Speaker 4: they're so, I mean the judge felt it was important
Speaker 4: and enough evidentiary value to bring to a jury, and
Speaker 4: you know, they follow directions. So so in the end,
Speaker 4: from your total examination from the very big you know,
Speaker 4: from the dark ages to the present day, how have
Speaker 4: killers changed and how have they stayed the same.
Speaker 6: Well, they stay the same because they're killing people, and
Speaker 6: there they're still quite often addicted to it. There's for many,
Speaker 6: but not all, is a sexual compulsion of fetish. Almost
Speaker 6: they're still basically doing the same kinds of things shooting, stabbing, choking, asphyxiation,
Speaker 6: poisoning that they've been doing for sent injuries. They changed though,
Speaker 6: with the changes in social pressures and expectations, so they'll
Speaker 6: just the manifest differently. They do respond to cultures. For example,
Speaker 6: there was a very good study comparing Asian serial killers
Speaker 6: in Japan against United States Seria killers in Asia far more,
Speaker 6: far greater percentage were motivated by greed and financial gain
Speaker 6: as opposed to more sexually oriented and compelled killers in
Speaker 6: the United States. Not a surprise when you look at
Speaker 6: the values of those two cultures. In South Africa, it
Speaker 6: was interesting we had a whole flew of serial killers
Speaker 6: all of a sudden claiming multiple personality one after another
Speaker 6: after another. That's got to be a culture open that.
Speaker 6: It can't be that, you know, they all have multiple
Speaker 6: personality disorder. And it was very directly after we had
Speaker 6: a whole flew of them doing it in the United States.
Speaker 6: So culture does certainly influence the form in which it's
Speaker 6: going to take. But nevertheless, the idea of power over
Speaker 6: other people, of killing other people for self centered reasons
Speaker 6: remains the same.
Speaker 4: Do you think that serial killers, whether just by the
Speaker 4: definition or or we'll say multiple killers, people who are
Speaker 4: killed more than one or two or three people, do
Speaker 4: you think they've really essentially other than these motivations more
Speaker 4: maybe more sexual and like say, shocking, Have they changed
Speaker 4: that much in terms of you know, if you have
Speaker 4: the ability to kill three or twenty or fifteen. Is
Speaker 4: still the basic mentality to cap ability of people to
Speaker 4: be able to do this savagery? Is that still the same?
Speaker 4: The killer is still the same.
Speaker 6: I think so, because the way they develop is really
Speaker 6: is really the key and how much freedom do they
Speaker 6: have to exercise this thing? For example, take his name,
Speaker 6: just escape Me, a black serial killer in Ohio who
Speaker 6: had this house near a meat pay so you know
Speaker 6: the smells. Nobody really understood that he had all these
Speaker 6: bodies in his house. I think he had something at
Speaker 6: eleven or so, and he kept just getting away with
Speaker 6: it because nobody was really checking. It's low income, you know,
Speaker 6: a low income area, many of them are prostitutes. Nobody
Speaker 6: was going after it. So there he was kind of
Speaker 6: getting pretty with nobody really checking into him, despite the
Speaker 6: fact that there were complaints. And you know, really it
Speaker 6: really depends on what's their circumstance with their situation, and
Speaker 6: you know, for how long do they want to keep
Speaker 6: doing it? How much risk are they taking If they
Speaker 6: stay low risk, like it's all in my house and
Speaker 6: nobody's coming in my house, it's pretty low risk. If
Speaker 6: you're going into other people's houses, pretty high risk. So
Speaker 6: really it's very hard to talk generically about serial killers
Speaker 6: for me, because I've looked at you know, well over
Speaker 6: a thousand cases, and there's a lot more diversity among
Speaker 6: serial killers than there is, say for mass murderers, who
Speaker 6: have a very common type of temperament. But you don't
Speaker 6: find that among serial killers, not by a long shot.
Speaker 6: I mean, we have the youngest serial code that I've
Speaker 6: heard of is eight years old. I've heard of three,
Speaker 6: two boys and a girl who's ten. That's pretty young.
Speaker 6: So how do they get that way? Well, each has
Speaker 6: his or her own story. We have serial killers up
Speaker 6: in their fifties and sixties. Most aren't that old, but
Speaker 6: those that are, you know, who are they? Why do
Speaker 6: they start so late? Or how they end up getting
Speaker 6: away with it for so long? You know, so they're
Speaker 6: a like let's look at Dennis Rader. He starts with
Speaker 6: a family of four. He starts with a family of
Speaker 6: four and then you know, then it's one at a
Speaker 6: time after that. That's very unusual.
Speaker 4: Well, those are characteristics that I can understand. It would
Speaker 4: that would be prone to have some sort of variety.
Speaker 4: And like you say, when you read about you know,
Speaker 4: Ramerez or Gacy or Bundy, all these people come from
Speaker 4: a different variety of backgrounds as well.
Speaker 6: They do and are definitely motivated by different things.
Speaker 4: But can you say if you saw if you said,
Speaker 4: this is the background of this person, and you didn't
Speaker 4: know the results, you just okay, here's the background of
Speaker 4: this person. Here's the background of this person, background of
Speaker 4: this person. Any of these serial killers I can say, I.
Speaker 6: Can say, well, you don't want to do a prospective profiling,
Speaker 6: but you can definitely do a probability analysis on if
Speaker 6: you had three people and their case histories. You could say,
Speaker 6: of these three, I can tell you that one is
Speaker 6: more likely than the other two to be a serial killer.
Speaker 6: But I would still say, but I don't know that
Speaker 6: this person will become a serial killer. I couldn't tell
Speaker 6: you that. I can only tell you that we would
Speaker 6: find this cluster traits and behaviors more often in serial
Speaker 6: killers than we do these other clusters of traits and behaviors.
Speaker 6: That's about all I can do is a probability analysis.
Speaker 4: And what would be those clusters of behaviors and traits
Speaker 4: that you would say, definitely, you know this is a recipe.
Speaker 6: For disaster here, Well, I think humiliation in youth, especially
Speaker 6: for males, coupled with anger, head injuries, psychopathy acting out
Speaker 6: that is not disciplined, so they feel like they can
Speaker 6: get away with it, and they developed the sense of
Speaker 6: narcissistic community. Those are some of the things. And we
Speaker 6: definitely see animal cruelty, but not the dead wedding and
Speaker 6: all that. We definitely see animal cruelty or cruelty to
Speaker 6: other children, picking out other children, trying to bully people.
Speaker 6: If I saw clusts of behaviors like that. But you know,
Speaker 6: what we really do see in what we call the
Speaker 6: fledgling psychopath is called callous disregard and ADHD. If you
Speaker 6: get both together, hyperactivity tension deficit and callous disregard, that
Speaker 6: those appear to be part of what it takes to
Speaker 6: become an adult psychopath. Now that's just the psychopath part.
Speaker 6: Most psychopaths are not criminals, killers, or serial killers. But
Speaker 6: if you do have the psychopathy trades already there, and
Speaker 6: you have a person who's acting out violently or sadistically,
Speaker 6: or lying easily or blaming others or you know, things
Speaker 6: like that, and has that sort of anger simmering anger, resentment,
Speaker 6: humiliation factor. I always say to my students. Never underestimate
Speaker 6: the effect of humiliation because that simmers in people, and
Speaker 6: when they get a chance to pay back, he'll do it,
Speaker 6: They will do it. So humiliation is a big, big deal,
Speaker 6: but head injuries as well. And so I'd have to
Speaker 6: say if I saw a lot of that going on
Speaker 6: in a person that doesn't make that doesn't mean they'll
Speaker 6: become a serial killer. But I think that you can
Speaker 6: say that that's the kind of person you'd want to
Speaker 6: watch and certainly do inactive interventions with.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't take issue, but I just found it interesting
Speaker 4: what you said about the psychopaths because I I just
Speaker 4: have a little bit of an issue with the determination
Speaker 4: that you know, you know your boss can be a psychopath. Again,
Speaker 4: I hate to beat up on the show.
Speaker 6: I agree with you. I hate these studies. They're so unscientific,
Speaker 6: they're so oh, I hate them. Yeah, you can tell
Speaker 6: them psychopath by their Twitter tweet or whatever. Really well,
Speaker 6: I think I agree with you.
Speaker 4: I think there's a danger though in Robert Hare saying
Speaker 4: that listen, not only are psychopaths again we change the
Speaker 4: word to sociopath again. It sounds nicer, but psychopath I
Speaker 4: think has to be I think there has to be something,
Speaker 4: some term reserved for these kinds of people. Now, if
Speaker 4: my boss is a psychopathic, then I have to say, Okay,
Speaker 4: this is a psychopathic killer. But we've already taken and
Speaker 4: rendered that words sort of somewhat less dangerous because my boss.
Speaker 6: Psychopaths are not killers, They're not even criminals.
Speaker 4: I could say that, I could see that. But at
Speaker 4: the same time, I think there's a danger in diminishing
Speaker 4: or at least not having a term for these people
Speaker 4: that can are psychopathic killers. I think it's I think
Speaker 4: it's also a danger when you when people see a
Speaker 4: person who happens to be schizophrenic, who is charged with
Speaker 4: this atrocious murder on a Greyhound bus, and then and then,
Speaker 4: and then you're gonna walk into a room and say, hey,
Speaker 4: by the way, I'm schizophrenic, you know.
Speaker 6: Instead of that becomes that becomes part of you know,
Speaker 6: the media is implicated in that they often will will
Speaker 6: spread these stories without true understanding of the conditions. You're
Speaker 6: not more probe to be violent if you have schizophrenia,
Speaker 6: unless you have a certain brand of paranoid schizophrenia, and
Speaker 6: in that case, it's more preemptive violence. Self defense than it.
Speaker 6: There's anything else, but the media doesn't teach us that stuff,
Speaker 6: so that becomes an issue. And now we have such
Speaker 6: a flood of crap on about psychopaths. It's hard to
Speaker 6: know how to make your way through all of it
Speaker 6: because the studies are terrible. They're headline grabbing studies based
Speaker 6: on you know, ten people, things like that. It's very
Speaker 6: hard to make your way through it and to know
Speaker 6: really what it means. And then of course you get
Speaker 6: these programs where the psychopath is is just is just
Speaker 6: the worst, most evil person you can image. So these
Speaker 6: do become issues, but there's there's little doubt from the research.
Speaker 6: And when I was talking about the fledgling psychopath, I
Speaker 6: wasn't even talking about Hair's research. There's little doubt from
Speaker 6: the research that psychopaths definitely have more if they are criminals,
Speaker 6: they have more criminal diversity, and they do recitibate more
Speaker 6: often than other people. So that's why I say, if,
Speaker 6: because we do have that research, you can do a
Speaker 6: probability analysis on you know, if you have the potential
Speaker 6: the fledgling psychopathic behaviors in place, and also this violent
Speaker 6: temperament and narcissistic community, you have certainly a person who
Speaker 6: needs intervention. That that's a person who is certainly on
Speaker 6: the road to doing what they want to do for
Speaker 6: their own self gratification, no matter what it might cost
Speaker 6: somebody else. That doesn't mean they'll become a serial killer,
Speaker 6: but the likelihood of that is greater than for somebody
Speaker 6: who's just an ordinary person.
Speaker 4: Now, what do you see as the sort of the
Speaker 4: the next step in terms of learning something from these
Speaker 4: particular type of killers. I know that you, yourself and
Speaker 4: all kinds of really dedicated people are doing as much
Speaker 4: research as you can tackling some of this information from
Speaker 4: all kinds of angles and perspectives and years and years
Speaker 4: of dedicated research like yourself. Tell us what you see
Speaker 4: in terms of what would be the next step in
Speaker 4: terms of trying to understand these unique Again you say
Speaker 4: they don't share any characteristics, But what's the next step
Speaker 4: in trying to understand the serial killer mindset, the psychology
Speaker 4: behind these people.
Speaker 6: The neuropsychologies, what's the next step? Already they're doing the
Speaker 6: brain scans, not just they're doing brain skins and secopath
Speaker 6: they're doing brain skins on violent people. So they have
Speaker 6: to add one more thing. And that's the case history.
Speaker 6: You can't at this time, you can't correlate differences in
Speaker 6: the brain with you know, violent behavior. We know that
Speaker 6: certain things are showing up, and the more brain scans
Speaker 6: we get to differentiate the violent brain, the better we're
Speaker 6: going to be. But we have to have the case
Speaker 6: history going along with that, and the case history takes
Speaker 6: a much longer time than sticking somebody in an MRI machine.
Speaker 6: You can do thousands of brain scans and you're not
Speaker 6: going to be able to catch up with all the
Speaker 6: details you need developmentally to really try to understand how
Speaker 6: does that what we see in that brain figure into
Speaker 6: the person's life story. So that's pretty intensive research. But
Speaker 6: certainly someone like Kent Kiel, you know who's doing that
Speaker 6: out in New Mexico, he understands. He's made some statements
Speaker 6: which I think he's not really quite got the support
Speaker 6: to make, but he certainly understands that you can't just
Speaker 6: take correlation and make that into causation. And that while
Speaker 6: would be great if we had ten thousand brain scans
Speaker 6: of psychopaths, that would be even greater if we had
Speaker 6: we could match these the developmentally, these brain scans against
Speaker 6: the life story, the details of the person's life, and
Speaker 6: that's going to be a lot of work.
Speaker 4: And it's hard sometimes to go backwards with people passing away,
Speaker 4: So you have to take some information from sometimes these killers,
Speaker 4: which are notorious liars. No mixture of lies, yeah, a
Speaker 4: mixture of lies and truth, but a fair amount of
Speaker 4: lies too are in there.
Speaker 6: Some of the good studies I've seen are the the
Speaker 6: adolescents who you know, I just mentioned the fledgling psychopaths.
Speaker 6: So some of there's there's a few places. There's one
Speaker 6: in Wisconsin where they're doing very intensive work with kids
Speaker 6: who are at risk becoming becoming adult psychopathic offenders, and
Speaker 6: they're finding that some of the interventions they're doing are
Speaker 6: in fact dropping the recidivism rate. Now, if you take
Speaker 6: you take that kind of work and then match it neurologically,
Speaker 6: you know, with the with the brain scans and also
Speaker 6: with the you know what, how do the kid get
Speaker 6: to this point because now so he's sixteen, he hasn't
Speaker 6: had so many years to develop. We can do a
Speaker 6: lot more with that than we can with somebody who's
Speaker 6: forty six. So if you if you got some really
Speaker 6: focused research on people of you know, in that sort
Speaker 6: of clientele. I think that that would be a pretty
Speaker 6: good start to help us know how to intervene and
Speaker 6: you know, really really try to prevent. I don't know
Speaker 6: that you can prevent psychopathy, especially if it turns out
Speaker 6: that it really is a brain disorder, but you might
Speaker 6: be able to shift the behaviors into something a little
Speaker 6: more pro social than currently we seem. But I don't know,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm just I'm really speculating because we just
Speaker 6: don't know. But we've we've we've seen enough to know
Speaker 6: that cosmative behavioral therapy is probably not the only thing
Speaker 6: we're going to be able to do. Unlet's we come
Speaker 6: up with some kind of medication to rebalance the brain
Speaker 6: or create more gray matter in areas that are deficient
Speaker 6: or something like that.
Speaker 4: Oh, don't give pharmaceutical companies any ideas on marketing.
Speaker 6: They're already got the ideas. I'm not.
Speaker 2: Figuring this stuff out.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 6: But I know what you mean, because we are becoming
Speaker 6: a an entire culture of drug addicted people thanks to
Speaker 6: every everybody being diagnosed with some kind of something or
Speaker 6: other that needs to be fixed with drugs. And I
Speaker 6: don't I don't mean it to sound like that. But
Speaker 6: if we do find let's say, let's just say we
Speaker 6: find in violent, in psychopathic people who are prone to violence,
Speaker 6: we find an area of the brain that is deficient
Speaker 6: in gray matters, it's thin or it's you know whatever,
Speaker 6: and we find some way to rebuild that and lo
Speaker 6: and behold their behavior changes. Wouldn't that be amazing? I
Speaker 6: think that's not far away.
Speaker 4: Well, you're pretty optimistic. I'll tell you what's going on.
Speaker 4: If you don't, I don't know if you're aware of this.
Speaker 4: But the Vincent Lee, the Greyhound bus, schizophrenic shiller, that
Speaker 4: person he's incarcerated for three years, and he is on
Speaker 4: escorted passes now into the community. Man and he will
Speaker 4: yeh escorted passes with unarmed guards walking in the Community's
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 6: Take a responsibility for making sure you stay a medication?
Speaker 4: Well, who I always wonder If they have medication that
Speaker 4: can render that person harmless, then why is anybody in
Speaker 4: an institution. I don't I don't understand how this medication
Speaker 4: wouldn't work on far less severe cases stop.
Speaker 6: Taking their medication because they have no accountability and nobody
Speaker 6: is there making sure they do it. That is a
Speaker 6: lot of it right there.
Speaker 4: This person here. What I've said is that they're taking
Speaker 4: because they said he's responding to this medication so wonderfully
Speaker 4: that this person would likely be out in five years
Speaker 4: into the community and there's no other charges. Not once
Speaker 4: you've been deemed insane at trial, it's not you're you're
Speaker 4: never retroy it again. So if you go from the
Speaker 4: institution out and what they're doing now is proving his
Speaker 4: his his ability not to rea his harmlessness by taking
Speaker 4: them out in the community and for fresh air. But
Speaker 4: they're turning them into I think there's a danger because
Speaker 4: there are other again less clear cut, far less clear
Speaker 4: cut case of insanity. I'm not saying this person isn't insane.
Speaker 4: I'm saying other cases that you would not consider insanity
Speaker 4: are being pushed through the courts as well. And again
Speaker 4: that if the person is temporarily insane, well then we'll
Speaker 4: just need medication temporarily for a few months and then
Speaker 4: reassess them. And so I think it's a there's a
Speaker 4: danger in that the medication can work in all cases,
Speaker 4: don't I don't know, And we have a.
Speaker 6: Great deal of ignorance about how it works, and we
Speaker 6: have a lot of resistance to our communities to have
Speaker 6: to pay for them. You know, our whole deinstitutionalization movement
Speaker 6: in this country is very political. It's not about caring
Speaker 6: for people. Well, it's not about compassion. It's not about
Speaker 6: awareness and being intelligent about the mentally ill. It's why
Speaker 6: we get you know, crazy people going into movie theaters
Speaker 6: and shooting, shooting us. We want to save money. We'd
Speaker 6: rather save money, and that's called the collateral damage of it.
Speaker 6: But I know, talking politics, I hate talking politics. Let's
Speaker 6: talk about serio killers are nothing.
Speaker 4: Well, the mettal ill are are down the list on priority.
Speaker 4: And what we did here is we deinstitutionalized too. And
Speaker 4: now now you see them in the soup kitchens and
Speaker 4: wandering the streets.
Speaker 6: It's horrible. We're not going to go backwards. We're not
Speaker 6: going to take care of them, and that's the horrible
Speaker 6: part of it. So yeah, something like that's going to
Speaker 6: be able to get out and and that's the way
Speaker 6: it is.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. But that's yeah, there's not there's not much
Speaker 4: analysis of that. And like I'm I'm totally interested in
Speaker 4: separating the insane from the evil. And but that's it.
Speaker 4: I'm not so confident that that psychiatry, through the piaty
Speaker 4: that definitely not yeah, disturbing you like what you have
Speaker 4: in America is a total resistance even if the person's
Speaker 4: bald face crazy, to say, yes, that person's insane. It
Speaker 4: almost seems a jury and the courts and the city,
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter, doesn't.
Speaker 6: Matter that they they're not. But for some reason, by law,
Speaker 6: they're not allowed to know what will happen when they
Speaker 6: deliver them. When they actually say somebody is not guilty
Speaker 6: by reason of insanity, they're not allowed to know what
Speaker 6: will happen, which is bizarre because then they are scared. Well,
Speaker 6: we're not allowed to know. Maybe they'll just get out
Speaker 6: in two months or something like that. And so we
Speaker 6: have a very strange court system regarding insanity, a very
Speaker 6: strange system, and there are a number of people who
Speaker 6: should have been found not guilty by reason of insanity
Speaker 6: who weren't, mostly because there's just so much ignorance about
Speaker 6: what it is, and people don't want to know, they
Speaker 6: don't want to be educated.
Speaker 4: It's just it's just responding to fear. And again, you know,
Speaker 4: the media doesn't do any justice most times in terms
Speaker 4: of analysis, it's headlines and so yeah, it's it's a
Speaker 4: it's a confluence of events that that keep continuing, you know,
Speaker 4: so that there's justice seems to be less. I mean,
Speaker 4: we were losing sight of justice in itself with a
Speaker 4: lot of the cases where you know, the wrongfully convicted
Speaker 4: a person not deemed insane. Uh, you know, circumstantial elevenence
Speaker 4: like the Casey Anthony case. It just you just shake.
Speaker 6: Your head, wow, you know that was that was just
Speaker 6: simply mismanaged from the start, as though, I have to say,
Speaker 6: and we'll see what happens with Jody Arius. I mean,
Speaker 6: that's that's been an interesting case.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not so much so up on it, but
Speaker 4: I've got a lot of notices about it, like I
Speaker 4: have very much.
Speaker 6: Like Anthony, lots of manipulation and it's an Arizona jury
Speaker 6: though they're a little different than Floriday'll see.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very very interesting. Well, Catherine, I want to thank
Speaker 4: you very much for this fascinating interview and for your
Speaker 4: fascinating book, The Human Predator, Historical Chronicle of Serial Murder
Speaker 4: and Forensic Investigation. It's been very very enjoyable discussing this
Speaker 4: with you, and thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 4: the program.
Speaker 6: H you welcome. Was it was fun to talk with
Speaker 6: you well.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much and hopefully we can talk again sometimes. Okay, great,
Speaker 4: have a good have a good night. All right, thanks,
Speaker 4: thank you, thank you,