1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,719 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:42,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 14 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,359 Speaker 4: I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,039 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 4: We're joined today by Darren Shaefer here to talk about 17 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:51,320 the podcast The Cooper Vortex and school us on everything 18 00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:52,560 dB Goopert. 19 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: We're back with the second part of our conversation with 20 00:00:58,039 --> 00:01:04,000 Darren Shaeffer is the podcaster behind the dB Cooper Vortex. 21 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,120 This is a continuation of the conversation we had with 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,120 Darren last week, so it probably makes more sense, but 23 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:16,719 you listen to our discussion with Darren last week, which 24 00:01:16,799 --> 00:01:20,760 is The Cooper Vortex Part three, and then this continuation 25 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:25,319 picks up with Kristin asking the question is the dB 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,519 Cooper case, now more than fifty years old, still solvable? 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,920 As always, we have new episodes every Monday, bonus episodes 28 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,359 which are classic episodes every Thursday here on Mind Over Murder. 29 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:41,159 Hope you'll take a few minutes to give us a 30 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,799 five star kind review on your favorite podcast platform, and 31 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,200 thanks for listening. Now back to dB Cooper, the Cooper 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,000 Vortex and Darren Schaefer. 33 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:55,159 Speaker 4: What is it going to take to solve the case? 34 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:57,920 Do you think it's solvable at this point? I know 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,159 that there's been recent discussion about the tie. 36 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 5: What can we get off the tie? 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 4: Is it going to take forensic genetic genealogy, Is it 38 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:08,199 going to take DNA? What is it going to take? 39 00:02:08,599 --> 00:02:11,400 Or is it too called? Too long, we're not going 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,439 to find out who dB Cooper is? What are your thoughts? 41 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 5: Okay, I have a few answers for that, because there 42 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,000 were a few questions baked into that. Good Sorry, Let's 43 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,639 start with what will it take to solve this case? 44 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:25,080 I asked that on my show, And I don't know 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,280 if it's not a confession at this point in time, 46 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,479 because we probably have dozens of confessions that are worthy 47 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,159 of investigation. I think I saw an FBI file that 48 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,199 said they've had over nine hundred people confess to this crime. 49 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:41,039 When I spoke to Larry Carr, who was a case 50 00:02:41,039 --> 00:02:45,879 agent the two thousands, two thousands, he said, during his 51 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:49,599 time as case agent, there were two different people that 52 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:53,520 went into FBI offices to confess to the crime. And 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,439 that's quite a step further than I'm at the bar 54 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,360 with my buddy and hey, by the way, you know 55 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,759 that dB Cooper thing that was me, wasn't that awesome? 56 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,680 I'm pretty cool. No, this is me going into an 57 00:03:03,759 --> 00:03:06,759 FBI office to confess to a crime I know I 58 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,439 did not commit, which is crazy. So we would need 59 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:13,199 some sort of physical evidence at this point in time, 60 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,520 which seems very unlikely to come by if you stumbled across. 61 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,199 You're going through your great uncle's stuff who had just 62 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,120 passed away. And here's a ticket stub from Northwest Orian Airlines. 63 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,439 Here's the remnants of an old military bailout rig and 64 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:33,520 a twenty dollars bill from nineteen sixty nine. Boy, is 65 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,840 that compelling evidence right there. We haven't seen any of 66 00:03:36,919 --> 00:03:39,280 that at this point in time. That would go a 67 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,759 long way towards solving the case. Even though I just 68 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:47,360 totally poop pooed confessions. If there was a confession from 69 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,719 a relative, I had to wait till my great uncle 70 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,000 passed away before I could tell the story that he 71 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,319 told me. It have to be very convincing, and then 72 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,439 we'd take a look at it as the dB Cooper 73 00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:02,360 community or the FBI and maybe verify some of those details. 74 00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:06,159 But outside of a plane ticket, a twenty dollars bill, 75 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,400 or if he happened to keep that bailout rig a 76 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:12,919 confession is going to be pretty tough forensic DNA. Oh, 77 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:14,000 I'm sorry, go ahead, Bill. 78 00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: And I don't think any of us should lose sight 79 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:19,399 of this. We hear this with the Zodiac and certainly 80 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,720 with the dB Cooper case. It isn't like Dbe Cooper 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,319 is going to be clapped in irons because if let's 82 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,560 say he was in his forties and that's fifty four 83 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:34,519 years ago, he himself is likely deceased by this point. 84 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,879 Speaker 5: People that drank and smoked and lived dangerously in nineteen 85 00:04:37,959 --> 00:04:41,160 seventy one in their forties. Those folks aren't alive today. 86 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,560 Best case scenario, Cooper is ninety three years old. More 87 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,120 than likely he's over one hundred years old at this 88 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,720 point in time. I didn't know a lot of people 89 00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:54,279 that chain smoked in the nineteen seventies that are still 90 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:55,120 hanging out today. 91 00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: And one of those activities would have included jumping out 92 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,199 of an airplane at close to two hundred miles an 93 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,160 hour in the dark into some pretty wild country in 94 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,319 terms of the places that he may have landed in 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,680 the northwest part of the United States. So it seems 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,079 like there's a lot of risky behavior going on there 97 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:15,879 for sure. 98 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 5: Also, his age is a weird thing. If I just 99 00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:22,079 explained this crime to you and then said, guess how 100 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,519 old the guy was, you'd say twenty five, you'd say 101 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,600 twenty two. It's really unusual for a man of that 102 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,720 age to commit such a crazy heist. Nevertheless, a bold, 103 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:36,839 daring heist that involves a lot of physical danger. It's 104 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,839 not just running to the getaway car and driving away. 105 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 2: Now, you were then steering towards DNA. 106 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,879 Speaker 5: Forensic DNA back to a Cooper Kahn. This last year, 107 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,199 we had doctor Colleen Fitzpatrick. 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: Oh, we know Colleen very well, Yeah, we know. I 109 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:53,759 love Colleen. 110 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 5: She's fantastic And she did a whole presentation on solving 111 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,160 the dB Cooper case with forensic DNA, and it upset 112 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:08,360 quite a few people. Whystic she fantasts a very hilarious, 113 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:09,800 like dry sense of humor. 114 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:10,439 Speaker 2: She does. 115 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 5: She's one of the things that's been discussed in this 116 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:16,800 case is dB Cooper cut open one of the four 117 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,959 parachutes he was given to tie the money to himself. 118 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,439 And she said, oh, maybe we can try and pull 119 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,759 DNA from the shroud lines as long as those aren't contaminated. 120 00:06:26,079 --> 00:06:28,839 And then she very quickly flips through ten slides of 121 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,399 ten different people handling the shroud lines with their bare hands, right, 122 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,519 and so then she's we could also examine that parachute 123 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:42,160 from that hijacking, as long as that's not contaminated, and 124 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:44,920 then very quickly flips through ten slides of ten people 125 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:46,399 handling it with no gloves. 126 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,959 Speaker 2: This to be fair to everyone, this is how evidence 127 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,519 was handled in nineteen seventy one. So the idea of 128 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,079 cross contamination and DNA and every buddy wearing the hazmat 129 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,439 suit and all the things we see on TV and 130 00:07:04,519 --> 00:07:09,800 in movies today, that isn't the world of nineteen seventy one. No. 131 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 5: I've even seen a picture of one of the FBI 132 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,279 agents wearing dB Cooper's clip on tie as a joke 133 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:16,040 photo op. 134 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: And we could by the way, we both know Colleen 135 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,000 very well. She stayed here at the house. I could 136 00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:29,360 totally see her, Yes, blow through the slides going click, 137 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000 and that's the way things were handled. Then yep. 138 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,199 Speaker 4: So what was her ultimate conclusion on this That it 139 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,920 really isn't possible to solve it that way. 140 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,519 Speaker 5: Yes, she said there's some sort of like archaeology DNA test, 141 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:46,600 but she said that's like it costs a trillion dollars 142 00:07:46,639 --> 00:07:48,680 at this point in time and wouldn't be used for 143 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,920 this particular case. So maybe in the far future, when 144 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,399 that technology is more readily accessible, we could take a 145 00:07:55,399 --> 00:07:58,319 look at it. But basically her conclusion when at this 146 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,680 point in time, forensic DNA doesn't seem like an avenue 147 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,639 that's going to solve the dB Cooper case. 148 00:08:04,199 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: Because it's easy enough to say, and we even said 149 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:09,480 it on Mind Over Murder. A couple of weeks ago, 150 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,439 the idea of the clip on tie that we might 151 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,360 be able to get touched DNA from the clip on tie. 152 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:18,279 Even when you start hearing things like and here's an 153 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:21,680 FBI agent wearing the clip on tie. Who knows how 154 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:28,639 many different agents and analysts handled the material from this case. 155 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,399 Speaker 5: I would guess over one hundred. 156 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: But it's sure not going to make it easy if 157 00:08:32,639 --> 00:08:36,720 you're trying to extract evidence from fifty four year old evidence. 158 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:39,600 That is a mess at this point. 159 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,639 Speaker 5: Oh yeah. And Weirdly, in this case, all of the 160 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:47,159 forensic examination of this case has been done by civilians, 161 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,039 so even the tie when the only forensic the real 162 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,200 forensic examination of the tie was done by Tom Kay, 163 00:08:55,799 --> 00:09:00,080 who's a civilian who specializes in paleontology and has his 164 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,919 own super fancy microscope at his place. He looked at 165 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,000 it for the first time, and instead of solving the case, 166 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:09,279 it just took us in a different direction because there's 167 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,919 all these weird metals and rare earth elements on the tie. Yeah, 168 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,120 things that Bill and I. If you and I wore 169 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,320 tie every day our entire life, the same tie, we 170 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,519 wouldn't have these materials on our tie, especially in nineteen 171 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,440 seventy one, it's even weirder. So then it throws this 172 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,000 wrench into it where it's okay, now I'm a Wolfgang 173 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,840 Gossip guy. It's Wolfgang Gossip. Then someone's gonna say to me, 174 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,120 how do you explain the elements on the tie? I 175 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:35,799 don't know. I don't know if I can. And then 176 00:09:36,039 --> 00:09:39,879 like Vince Peterson, for example, he is tied to Cooper 177 00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:44,399 directly from the tie, almost exclusively from the tie, but 178 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,279 then there's nothing else that matches. It'd be like I 179 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,919 saw a red Mustang get away from this crime in Miami, Florida, 180 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,120 and I'm like, you know what, Bill Thomas has a 181 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:57,960 Red Mustang. It's definitely him. But Bill wasn't even in 182 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,600 Florida during that time period and is different make and 183 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:04,399 model Mustang. So it's just another part of this case 184 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,519 where instead of getting answers to things, just like the 185 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,799 money find on Tina Barr, that didn't answer any questions. 186 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,080 It only added more mystery to this. 187 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:16,279 Speaker 2: And then, of course, as a car buff I would 188 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,639 mention that the Ford Mustang was the best selling car 189 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,559 for several years running in the mid sixties, and who 190 00:10:23,639 --> 00:10:27,919 knows how many millions of Mustangs were sold, and then 191 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,399 of course if you narrowed it down to how many 192 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,519 of them were red, and of course the car could 193 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,039 have been repainted, and you can just go on and on. 194 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,679 But the fact that someone was seen in a red 195 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:41,080 Mustang doesn't really give you very much exactly. 196 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:43,919 Speaker 5: It's just one sort of piece of evidence that you 197 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,600 can connect to or not depending on your suspect. The 198 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,080 derogatory term for some people in this is suspect peddlers, 199 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,519 where you have one suspect and you just absolutely stick 200 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,279 to it when different clues come out or different evidence 201 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,039 or this new a Thai particle. It is funny to 202 00:11:02,039 --> 00:11:04,759 see someone who is dead set on their suspect then 203 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:08,360 try to jump through all these hoops. Oh, my suspect 204 00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:12,080 could got those tie elements because his grandpa liked to 205 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,600 work on electronics in his basement. 206 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:17,799 Speaker 2: Boy, is that a stretch right? 207 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 4: That actually kind of steers me toward another question that 208 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:24,759 you and I addressed off air, and that is, let's 209 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:30,519 get into the community surrounding dB Cooper. Through long and 210 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,559 bitter experience within the true crime community, we know that 211 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:36,399 cases that are old, cold, or intriguing, or all three 212 00:11:36,879 --> 00:11:39,759 have a wide network of followers, many of whom are 213 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:42,440 positive their suspect is the right suspect. We see it 214 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,879 with Zodiac, we see with Jack the Ripper, and I'm 215 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:46,879 sure that you see it in the dB Cooper case, 216 00:11:47,039 --> 00:11:50,200 which leads, of course to competing researchers, competing theories, and 217 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,720 competing podcasts. As someone who lives inside the dB Cooper vortex, 218 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,879 can you tell us a little bit about the inside 219 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:02,159 scoop on the GB Cooper community. What are the things 220 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,279 that you see really positive about the community and what 221 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,039 are the things that you would like to see the 222 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:09,120 community do a little bit better moving forward. 223 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 5: I would say one of the most positive things about 224 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,399 this community is that most people come into it not 225 00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:18,120 from a true crime angle, but from a oh I 226 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,759 have expertise in this field and I can offer some insights. 227 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,080 So a lot of pilots, a lot of skydivers come 228 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,919 into it from that angle, and so the community is 229 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:29,840 very oh I know about this. Let me tell you 230 00:12:29,919 --> 00:12:34,039 about that where it's not a lot of arguing suspect 231 00:12:34,159 --> 00:12:38,799 versus suspect. More, let's argue the nitty gritty details of 232 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,519 this particular navy backpack. It would have d rings in 233 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,320 these locations and they'd be affixed and the strap would 234 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,159 go diagonally and not horizontally. Weird details like that are 235 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,120 arguing about the landing, then you have, if I could 236 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:56,600 go back to my derogatory term, suspect peddlers. Yeah, that's 237 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,679 where you're going to have people who will get angry 238 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,279 about other people offering their opinion. You might see on 239 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,039 a board somewhere, Hey, I don't think I just read 240 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,240 about Billy Bob on this one website, and I don't 241 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:10,960 think that Billy Bob is dbe Cooper. And then you're 242 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,559 gonna have the guy pushing for Billy Bob just jump 243 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,720 right in and be like, you don't know what you're 244 00:13:15,759 --> 00:13:17,759 talking about. And I looked at this for ten years, 245 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,440 and one thing that I've learned doing this show is 246 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,320 there's a certain type of person that can put a 247 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,679 lot of work into something and then realize, hey, I 248 00:13:27,799 --> 00:13:30,279 was wrong about that, and then say hey I was 249 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,240 wrong about that, and then move on and be cool. 250 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,080 And then there's a different type of person where they've 251 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,360 put a lot of work into something and they will 252 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,200 not accept being wrong and they cannot accept critique. And 253 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,480 that's where you get a lot of people that become 254 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:51,120 angry or or even online will verbally assault someone or 255 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,919 call names or do things like that, try to get 256 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:56,320 forums taken down. 257 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you get into the flame wars and all of that. 258 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,679 Is that a small percentage of people that get locked 259 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,879 into No, my guy John Doe is Dbie Cooper. Is 260 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:09,720 that frequent. 261 00:14:10,159 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 5: It's I would say it's definitely a very small percentage. 262 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:15,840 It's people that have had this book out on the case, 263 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,679 and it's usually people who discovered a suspect before learning 264 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,799 about the case. So for whatever reason, I found Billy 265 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,960 Bob and you know what I heard about the Dbie 266 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,120 Cooper thing. I bet Billy Bob was Dbie Cooper. And 267 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:33,720 then they work backwards from there to match Billy Bob 268 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:37,679 to Cooper right versus someone who was in the case 269 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:41,159 and then maybe discovered a suspect. Those people tend to 270 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,679 go through suspects and rule them out one by one. 271 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,320 Another topic I've brought up on my show quite a 272 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,960 bit is accusing someone publicly of a crime with Cooper. 273 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:54,759 Most of those people are dead, almost all of them 274 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:57,960 are dead. On my show. I won't be the first one. 275 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:00,240 You're not going to come on my show and going 276 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,320 to be the first place you're going to name this suspect. 277 00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:04,679 I would have to be very impressed for that. I 278 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,360 actually did one interview when the guy started naming names 279 00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:10,360 and people that were alive, and I was like, WHOA, 280 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,679 I'm not doing this on this show. It's a slippery 281 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:17,879 area to accuse someone of a crime. I've known quite 282 00:15:17,919 --> 00:15:20,200 a few people in the dB Cooper community that have 283 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:23,559 reached someone that they thought was a suspect to the 284 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,840 point where they've contacted the family. Hey what do you 285 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:30,200 think about this? Or Hey, I'm going forward with this. 286 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: How can families respond? 287 00:15:32,759 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 5: You know what? Usually the families in my experience are like, Okay, yeah, 288 00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:39,799 that checks out. I don't know that he was Cooper. 289 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:42,200 I have no evidence of that, but I could see 290 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,120 that happening. That makes sense really yeah. And in the 291 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:50,639 instance Vince Peterson, though the family was contacted, it was 292 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,679 like a second cousin who didn't know him, and then 293 00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:56,879 he publicly went with that and then the immediate family 294 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,519 was shocked and upset. So it's something I've covered. Michelle. 295 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:04,120 If you're looking into a suspect, what's the proper etiquette? 296 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,960 How do you go about doing that I'll ask my guest, Hey, 297 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,159 you Milton for Ordahl, for example, a suspect that more 298 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,639 than likely knew Vince Peterson and had worked together. My 299 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,480 friend Ryan and Nicky worked that guy, got to it, 300 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:22,960 made contact with the family in back channel before Milton 301 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,480 was ever a publicly named person anywhere, and their response was, yeah, 302 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:30,360 I could. I could see that. It's very possible. He 303 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,639 was a very odd, unique guy. And then they got 304 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:36,039 permission to say, hey, we're going to come forward with 305 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,320 this theory. The family didn't give an endorsement either way. 306 00:16:39,399 --> 00:16:41,559 It was more we don't know, but it's not out 307 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,360 of the realm of possibility. But they did get permission 308 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:47,440 from the family to go forward versus the hey, I'm 309 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,679 just going to name this guy, and then you have 310 00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:52,720 all these super amateur web sluts that are now going 311 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:56,639 to reach out to a family member, Hey did your dad, 312 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,879 by the way, did he smoke Raleigh cigarettes? And Jed, 313 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:01,519 It's just not the way to handle it. 314 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,559 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 315 00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:14,559 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 316 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:15,480 mindover Murder. 317 00:17:17,279 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 4: Before we wrap up, I think a really compelling question 318 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,519 to end on is this idea that apparently we got 319 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,920 dinged for by an I rate listener, that we'd put forth, 320 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,720 this idea that d. B. Cooper has hit folk hero 321 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,680 status for some people, and that I think didn't sit 322 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:38,240 well with someone who was listening. 323 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:40,759 Speaker 2: What do you think. 324 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 4: About this idea of dB Cooper being a folk hero, 325 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,440 like almost a robin Hood figure. And maybe I'm not 326 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,680 going in the right direction with the Robinhood parallel. I 327 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,160 think maybe you've got probably something a little better in mind. 328 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,319 But this idea of dB Cooper as he's a cool figure, 329 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,359 what do you think about that? 330 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,799 Speaker 5: Well, folk hero robin Hood. You guys aren't the first 331 00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:05,079 people to put those phrases out about dB Cooper, not 332 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,759 at all. This hijacking takes place in the Pacific Northwest, 333 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:11,559 where it's a very already anti authority we do our 334 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:12,559 own thing kind of a. 335 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:13,279 Speaker 2: Place, yep. 336 00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 5: So immediately after the skyjacking, people are rooting for him. 337 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,039 Good he got away. He didn't physically hurt anyone in 338 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,960 doing this. If somebody was physically hurt in this, he 339 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:30,759 is probably the only one. If he was hurt at all. 340 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:33,440 But there are two camps in this. There is the 341 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,920 he's a full hero. It's cool. It's James Bond. He 342 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,400 stuck it to the man, y'all. He got his money 343 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,880 from the airline and an insurance company. He didn't steal 344 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,400 from a grandma. So all of that. Yeah, that's a 345 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:52,000 very popular narrative. A lot of people believe that. The 346 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:55,799 other is, Hey, here's a guy who put all these 347 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,480 passengers in danger. He completely stressed out these stewardess. Even 348 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,240 if his bomb is fake, if I show you a 349 00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:07,599 bomb on an airplane, you can't ask, You can't say 350 00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:10,559 that it's not real, can't say prove it. You have 351 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000 to take the person at their word that their bomb 352 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,559 is real and the stress that this has caused on them. 353 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,599 Both of those angles of viewing him are true. He 354 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,319 is this criminal. He did stress out all these people, 355 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,599 although Tina Mucklow famously said that she was more bothered 356 00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:33,319 by the attention from dB Cooper than the dB Cooper hijacking, 357 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,279 just the NonStop of the FBI was talking to them 358 00:19:39,319 --> 00:19:42,559 for a while. One of the I think it's the 359 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:45,759 ex husband of one of the stewardesses said that they 360 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:48,799 believed that they were being tailed by the FBI for 361 00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:51,799 a few weeks after the hijacking though, and then just 362 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,759 constant reporters, amateur sleuths. You can look someone up and 363 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,000 get a hold of them. And Tina's had people knock 364 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:02,000 on her door to her about the dB Cooper hijacket. 365 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,799 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is insane. 366 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, and she didn't choose to be a part of this. 367 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,880 She went to work one day. But while we are 368 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,880 on the topic of Stewardess's there are two things about 369 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:20,160 this case that drive me absolutely crazy. Two theories that 370 00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:22,880 if you're just learning about dB Cooper from this show, 371 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,880 and it's the first time you've heard about it, you're 372 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,559 more than likely going to come up with one of 373 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:29,880 these two theories and think that they're valid and that 374 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,279 you may have solved the case. The first is that 375 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,440 the dB Cooper didn't exist and the flight crew was 376 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,000 in on it, or potentially dB Cooper was in on 377 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:44,119 it with the flight crew. It's absolutely ridiculous. There's zero 378 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,519 evidence to support it. The FBI looked into the flight crew. 379 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,240 I've talked too many people that worked for airlines, even 380 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:55,440 that particular airline in the sixties and seventies. They'll all 381 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,440 tell you the same thing. They loved their job. It 382 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,119 was very glamorous, paid very well. And the idea that 383 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,319 you're going to whack up two hundred thousand dollars between three, four, five, 384 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,839 six seven people. 385 00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, and risk your career jail. 386 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 5: Of using your job is just completely ridiculous. Don't fall 387 00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:18,680 into that trap. There's nothing there. The other one that 388 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,240 I absolutely can't stand, that's a total joke is dB 389 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,359 Cooper never jumped from the airplane. He hid on the 390 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,240 airplane and then escaped when no one was looking or 391 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:34,400 when it was convenient. That's absolutely ridiculous. The plane lands 392 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,319 in Reno, they thought there might be a potential for 393 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,680 him to jump off the airplane as it's landing, So 394 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,759 as the plane touches the ground, there were two squad 395 00:21:43,839 --> 00:21:45,680 cars that trailed the plane all the way to a 396 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,640 complete stop. The plane is also then immediately searched with dogs. Right, 397 00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:54,519 And if you've ever been on an airplane, you know 398 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,160 that there isn't a whole bunch of extra space they're 399 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,720 not using. 400 00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:00,319 Speaker 2: Yeah in the restaurant. 401 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,839 Speaker 5: Quare inch of available space in that aluminum fuselage. 402 00:22:05,839 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that part is insane. While we're on the he 403 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:13,519 might not have put that many people at risk topic. 404 00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:18,200 What's your take on this bomb that he had? I 405 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,079 put air quotes around that. Are we talking road flares 406 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,440 and wires? Do you think it was fake? Do you 407 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:25,319 think it was real? 408 00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:29,599 Speaker 5: We don't know. This is another question I ask every 409 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,359 guest on the show, what do you think of Cooper's bomb? 410 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,319 Was a real? When I first came into this, I 411 00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:37,480 would have told you the bomb was fake. There's no 412 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,079 reason for it to be real. But the more that 413 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,440 I've looked into this case and different copycats and the 414 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:49,119 way they operated, I lean towards it being real. Now. 415 00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:53,279 The main reason for that is when the plane lands 416 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:56,119 in Seattle, if they just get the pilots off that 417 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:02,000 plane and he's sitting alone in that plane, there's no escape. True, 418 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:05,880 he's toast, and so if that plane doesn't take back off, 419 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,880 he's quote Tom Kay, trapped in an aluminum jail cell. 420 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,839 And so that I could see that reason for the 421 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,440 bomb being real, especially if you believe the narrative that 422 00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:19,960 he's this down and out guy and this is his 423 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,079 last chance thing where Okay, I'm stuck now, I'm just 424 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:28,720 gonna blow myself up in the back row of this airplane. 425 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,200 So I would tend to toward it being real, but 426 00:23:32,759 --> 00:23:33,559 gotta push back. 427 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:36,799 Speaker 2: I got to push back here. I don't think that 428 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,920 there's enough benefit to dB Cooper carrying a real bomb, 429 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,359 because the whole point is unless you're suicidal. I get 430 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,440 the point that when they landed in Reno that they 431 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,559 could have stormed the aircraft and taken it over. What's 432 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,920 the incentive for Cooper to blow himself and this Northwest 433 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,759 orient aircraft up there? There isn't really anything unless your 434 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:06,720 intention is effectively suicide or suicide by cop. I just 435 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:09,839 don't see the benefit your bluff, which is or you 436 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,920 show the flight attendant this tangle of explosives and what 437 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:18,559 looks like a timer and dynamite explosives. I think that 438 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,799 works just as well as a real bomb, doesn't it. 439 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,559 Speaker 5: Oh? Absolutely, a fake bomb absolutely works just as well. 440 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:28,319 The only reason for it to be real is if 441 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:32,880 the plan goes completely south in Seattle, specifically on the ground, 442 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,720 and the flight crew escapes because the pilots have sort 443 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,119 of an emergency window release in the front of the plane, 444 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:42,400 and then they get down the jankiest rope ladder you've 445 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,039 ever seen through the ground. And if that happens, then 446 00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:50,240 he's trapped there, then at that point he could use 447 00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:53,920 the bomb. I think he would have only hurt himself 448 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,720 with the bomb. I don't think he ever had any 449 00:24:56,759 --> 00:24:59,720 intention of hurting anyone else. Because when they land and 450 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:01,839 seat out of one of his demands as meals for 451 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,480 the flight crew, because somehow he knew that flight crew 452 00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:08,160 it was their last stop, and so now he was 453 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,960 extending their workday by another four hours. 454 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:17,039 Speaker 2: So he'd actually clearly studied some of the work responsibilities 455 00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:20,200 and the hours and even their meal plan. 456 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he clearly knew more about the plane than 457 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:26,400 the pilots. The pilots didn't know that plane could be jumped. 458 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,640 They had to call air traffic control because he demanded 459 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,400 the plane take off with the aft stairs down. And 460 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,319 they call air traffic control and ask, can this plane 461 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,960 even fly with the aft stairs down? Air traffic control 462 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:42,799 has no idea. They had to call Boeing. Boeing confirmed, yes, 463 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,319 that plane can fly with the aft stairs down. We've 464 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,839 tested it. But the pilots still refused to take off 465 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,839 with the aft stairs down. They said it was unsafe 466 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,640 in a plane full of fuel. Interestingly, Cooper says, you 467 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,400 guys are wrong about that, but I'll just lower the 468 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,400 aft stairs in flight. There's a video on YouTube where 469 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,640 you can see a seven twenty seven taking off with 470 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,200 the aft stairs down. So how did Cooper know that 471 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,319 when the pilots of the plane had no idea about 472 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:12,680 any of this. 473 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 2: I've actually deplaned in various airports and they used to 474 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,839 lower those rear stairs sometimes and you go down on 475 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,799 the tarmac. One of my jobs with ASKAP, the Songwriters Organization, 476 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,519 I had to fly all over the country for meetings 477 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:33,160 with members of Congress and songwriters and composers who made 478 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,359 up ass gaps membership. So I ended up traveling on 479 00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:40,079 every single airline you've ever thought of, including a whole 480 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:43,839 bunch that are long out of business. And I remember 481 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,440 landing in Saint Louis once and there were dozens and 482 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,559 dozens of TWA aircraft and TWA had effectively gone out 483 00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:55,000 of business except in that one hub. But I remember 484 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,079 getting off the plane several times where they lowered the 485 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,200 rear stairs. It never occurred to me to try to 486 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,440 do this in flight. As we read the Boeing and 487 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,000 the airlines did change the security systems on those rear 488 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:14,240 stairs so that they could not be lowered in flight. 489 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:15,039 Is that correct? 490 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 5: Yes, in the most budget friendly way. They basically installed 491 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,319 a little flap that they coined the Cooper vein that 492 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,200 would attach to the latch mechanism on the rear stairs, 493 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,000 so that in flight, when the planes at speed, the 494 00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:35,519 air will push that flap sideways and lock those stairs closed, 495 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,480 and then when the plane comes to a stop with 496 00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:40,759 no wind anymore, the spring pressure pulls it back and 497 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,960 the aft stairs can be lowered. I've tried desperately to 498 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,759 get my hands on one of those, because it's just 499 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:50,119 a small little part, but I no luck yet. So 500 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,240 before I could get a Cooper van, reach out to 501 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,680 me because I'd love to have one. 502 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 4: Future collectible Darren, where can our listeners find your podcast? 503 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 5: The Cooper Vortex wherever you listen to podcasts? 504 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 4: You've given us the names of so many wonderful resources. 505 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:10,319 I know you've named a couple of different books, but 506 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,839 are there any that you would recommend for somebody who 507 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,960 is just starting to get interested in the dB Cooper case. 508 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,839 Speaker 5: Yes, especially if you don't want to read a bunch 509 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,319 of lengthy books, if you'd just rather watch a couple 510 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,559 short YouTube clips or videos. My good friend Ryan Burns. 511 00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:29,559 He's got this YouTube channel Dbie Cooper Sleuth. There's a 512 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,680 lot of really good videos on that. He'll do some 513 00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:36,799 long form podcast style discussions on there, and then there's 514 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:40,480 a lot of really good short videos, including even YouTube shorts. 515 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,480 There was a story recently about a finding of a 516 00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:49,079 parachute that was connected to Richard McCoy right, Ryan Burns 517 00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:53,039 did three or four different videos completely debunking that that 518 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:56,279 are absolutely fantastic, And whenever that comes up on writ 519 00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:58,400 It or something, someone'as, hey, I just heard about this. 520 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,240 I love for people to just be able to point to, Hey, 521 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:06,319 Ryan Burns dB Cooper Sleuth made this video. Watch this video. 522 00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:09,599 It's all the facts about the case. And he'll go 523 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,200 into different things like he's got a video about smoking cigarettes, 524 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,200 he's got a video about the seven twenty seven half stars, 525 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,240 all these little things and debunkings particular suspects. It's a 526 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:24,440 great resource and really great guy. I love Ryan. 527 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,319 Speaker 2: What's your schedule? How often do you put out episodes 528 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:31,440 on the Cooper Vortex podcast. 529 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 5: When I get real motivated, I'm doing one, maybe one 530 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,119 or two a month, and then I'll take a break. 531 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,960 I did this book review series at the beginning of 532 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,319 this year where I read like fourteen books in sixty 533 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,160 days and that burned me out on dB. Cooper a 534 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,000 little bit picked it back up, but I was trying 535 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:56,119 to keep a schedule, but it got to the point 536 00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:58,559 where I was having people on the show where I 537 00:29:58,599 --> 00:30:00,759 was like, this person doesn't deserve to be on the show, 538 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,400 because when I started the show, it's not like I'm 539 00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:07,440 solving the case or anything like that. The point of 540 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,799 the show is there are so many different theories in 541 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:15,039 this case and so many super interesting suspects. I just 542 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,000 wanted it to be a place where here are all 543 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,039 the theories, and here are all the suspects on the case, 544 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,119 and you, as the listener, can decide what's legit, what's not, 545 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,839 who's onto something, who's a total quack. I'm just the 546 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,319 guy holding the microphone for you and helping the guests 547 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,960 guide them through their theory. I'm not I have some 548 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,079 guests on where I'm real friendly with them and I 549 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:40,839 can push back on things they say, but sure you'll 550 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:43,799 hear me in episodes, not push back on something that's 551 00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:47,200 absolutely ridiculous, because I'm just trying to help that guest 552 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:48,880 get their story out. 553 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 2: Are there people you would still like to have on 554 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:55,519 the podcast? Obviously, you have a standing offer for Dan 555 00:30:55,599 --> 00:30:59,240 Cooper to contact you from the Old Age Home, and 556 00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,160 I agree to it here on the podcast. Are there 557 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,960 other people you'd still like to get on the Cooper 558 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,119 of Vortex and have a good conversation with. 559 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 5: Yes. Number one is Jeffrey Gray. I've tried to get 560 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,359 him on the show so many times. We've had interviews 561 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,359 scheduled and it didn't work out for him for one 562 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,880 reason or another. He keeps saying he's going to do it. 563 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,000 I haven't got him yet. But other than that, I've 564 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:28,880 been real lucky in being able to get who I've 565 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,440 wanted on the show. On Larry Carr brought the case. 566 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,279 He's a FBI agent. He brought the case to the 567 00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:39,359 public in the two thousands because he thought, Okay, we've 568 00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:42,119 gone nowhere with this. Let's put some of the stuff 569 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,480 in the public and see what comes in and see 570 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,240 if they can help us with it. I wanted him 571 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:50,960 on the show so badly. I even went through this 572 00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:54,119 super lengthy process to have an FBI agent on the 573 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,319 show because he was still with the FBI. I ended 574 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,759 up doing that three separate times. The FBI rejected me 575 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,680 all three times. Oh and hilariously the last time. My 576 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:08,400 response was no, he will not be able to come 577 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,400 on the show, and you do not get to know why, 578 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:13,720 which I just saw was the most hilarious answer. No, 579 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,279 I need to know why because somebody just said no. 580 00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:20,920 And I thought anything. But he told me privately after 581 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,680 that he was like, Hey, they're not going to let 582 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,559 me do it, but I'm retiring in eighteen months and 583 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,640 as soon as I retire, I'll reach out to you. 584 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:32,920 And I thought, okay, sure, whatever, I'll make a note. 585 00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:36,039 And he reached out to me. He was like, Hey, 586 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,000 just had my retirement party yesterday. When are we doing 587 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:40,119 the show? 588 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: I love it? 589 00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 5: Yes, So that was one I was really excited to do. 590 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:48,480 That was probably when I started this. It would have 591 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,240 been like Jeffrey Gray, Larry Carr, and then Joe Weber. 592 00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:56,759 I really wanted on the show. Her husband confessed on 593 00:32:56,799 --> 00:33:01,119 his deathbed, I'm Dan Cooper. This great story. She was 594 00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:06,319 buck wild online. She was quite the character, huh. But unfortunately, 595 00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:09,039 by the time I got into this, I had a 596 00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:12,279 phone call with her, a very lengthy one. I might 597 00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:14,079 have had a couple phone calls with her, but the 598 00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:16,240 one in particular, the first time I spoke to her, 599 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:18,960 I thought it would be cruel to put her in 600 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,119 front of a microphone at that point in her life 601 00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:24,160 because things were getting a little bit slippery for her. 602 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,759 Oh okay, which that was two years before HBO put 603 00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:31,400 her on camera, when I was like, Oh, it's cruel 604 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,519 to put her on at this point in her life. 605 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:37,000 But that was one I was gonna fly to Florida 606 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:39,599 to do that interview, right, But when I got off 607 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:41,359 the phone with her, I was just like, it's not 608 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,200 the right thing to do. 609 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:45,079 Speaker 2: You were concerned that she'd be embarrassed because she was 610 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:47,720 getting older and slowing down. 611 00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:51,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, and just wouldn't present the way she would have 612 00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:54,640 five or ten years prior. I want anyone that comes 613 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,880 on my show, I wanted to be an episode that 614 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,920 they liked, that they enjoyed, that they're going to share 615 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,599 with their friends and family. And I just didn't want 616 00:34:01,599 --> 00:34:05,599 to put someone elderly that might not have the best 617 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,039 grasp of what's going on or what they're saying. 618 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole point is, you weren't looking to embarrass 619 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,400 someone or make them look like they were less in 620 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,400 command of the facts. 621 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:21,119 Speaker 5: Oh, definitely not at all. That's not what I want 622 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:21,320 to do. 623 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Gray has been named and shamed here on Mind 624 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,880 over Murder for not appearing with you on the Cooper Vortex. 625 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,199 Speaker 5: Shame on you, Jeffrey, What are you going to do? 626 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,000 My show? But Kristen that book it holds up really well. 627 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,639 And there are three phases of dB Cooper books. There 628 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:46,559 are pre internet books, post internet books, and then now 629 00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:51,119 we have post FBI files books. There are two books 630 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:56,079 that hold up post FBI files extremely well. One is 631 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,199 Richard Tusaw's book. I think it's called Cooper. I can't 632 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,599 remember the name of Tusa, but it's Richard Tusa's book 633 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,800 on dB Cooper holds up extremely well. Ralph Heimmel'sbox Book 634 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,159 nor Jack that holds up pretty good too. Both of 635 00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:15,119 those are pre Internet. Jeffrey Gray's book is post Internet 636 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:18,599 but pre FBI files. And one of the reasons that 637 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:24,079 holds up extremely well today is that because of Larry Carr, 638 00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:29,440 he got unprecedented access to the FBI files. So he 639 00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:32,360 was working with what Larry Carr gave him, which was 640 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,719 the best of the FBI files. Very cool all the 641 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,760 dB Cooper guys now are getting into the weeds, but 642 00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:42,719 Jeffrey Gray had access to the FBI files before they 643 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,400 were made public. 644 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 4: Darren, this has been extraordinarily interesting, complex and very interesting. 645 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,280 It makes me want to spend more time digging into 646 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,559 the dB Cooper case. So thank you very much for 647 00:35:56,559 --> 00:35:59,719 giving us your time and expertise today and for helping 648 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,719 us deepen our understanding of the case. 649 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,079 Speaker 5: We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. 650 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 4: I had a blust that is going to do it 651 00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:09,360 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so 652 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:10,159 much for listening. 653 00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:12,079 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. 654 00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:25,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 655 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,679 Another Dog Productions. 656 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,559 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 657 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 658 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,039 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 659 00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 660 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 661 00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:47,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 662 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,159 Murders on Facebook. 663 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 664 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,559 Bill Thomas five six. 665 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 666 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 4: H