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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office

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<v Speaker 1>of the podcast. I'm John Pegel, saying it's so great

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<v Speaker 1>to have you with us because we've pretty much reached

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<v Speaker 1>a point where the Constitution is basically America's most ignored

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<v Speaker 1>terms of service agreement, and when it comes to fitness

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<v Speaker 1>for running the Department of Justice, Todd Blanche has raised

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<v Speaker 1>the bar on lowering the bar at a time when

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<v Speaker 1>constitutional norm sounds more and more like an endangered species.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me please welcome the star of our show. Constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>law professors have become America's trauma counselors and no one

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<v Speaker 1>saves more. And Professor Corey Bretschneider, the author of The

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<v Speaker 1>Oath and the Office. Professor, welcome back. It's great to

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<v Speaker 1>see you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, John. I'm looking forward to this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Although I'm distressed by what's happening with the confirmation of

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<v Speaker 2>Todd Blanche, which was voted today out of the Judiciary Committee,

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<v Speaker 2>I also think gets a chance to talk about how

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<v Speaker 2>the system's supposed to work and what confirmation is supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to be, namely our main check against a monarch, and

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<v Speaker 2>so as much as we're failing in our current moment,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll also talk about the hope of how the system's

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to work and how to revive it and what

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<v Speaker 2>to expect the representatives who defend it and those unfortunately

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<v Speaker 2>who don't.

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<v Speaker 1>I was on MSNL the other night to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>Senators Tillis and Cornon and their valiant Mister Smith goes

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<v Speaker 1>to Washington efforts to get Todd Blanche to agree in

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<v Speaker 1>writing to get rid of the slush fund for the

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<v Speaker 1>January sixth terrorist. It was essentially they were saying, well, listen,

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<v Speaker 1>all this corruption we're okay with, could you not do

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<v Speaker 1>this one piece of corruption in writing? That's all we're asking.

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<v Speaker 1>And Corey he said, I'd said under oath that it's dead.

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<v Speaker 1>And they're like, sorry, we don't trust you swearing on

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<v Speaker 1>a Bible on camera under oath, mister Blanche, can you please,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to know it's dead, Corey. Ten years after

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<v Speaker 1>Trump started all this, Republicans are demanding Trump produce a

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<v Speaker 1>death certificate for something. The irony floors me. Blanche said,

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<v Speaker 1>we won't do it. And so suddenly Professor all the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein cover up, given Dlane Maxwell a cushy club fed prison,

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<v Speaker 1>all those pardons for all those January sixth terrorists, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean everything, the subpoenas for the New York Times reporters.

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<v Speaker 1>None of it matters anymore. They made this big drama

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<v Speaker 1>about one little thing, and it successfully seems to have

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<v Speaker 1>distracted everybody from talking about the gigantic pyramid of corruption

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<v Speaker 1>this man represents.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And just to go back to the beginning, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there are a number of questions in this nomination.

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<v Speaker 3>The failure to.

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<v Speaker 2>Release the Epstein files, which we've covered with Katie Fang,

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<v Speaker 2>who's suing actually to get this release, and then these

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<v Speaker 2>immediate issues about both the deal that Donald Trump essentially

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<v Speaker 2>made with himself he claims with the IRS, and a

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<v Speaker 2>settlement that resulted in a b with billions, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>over in the billions of dollars, this settlement, which was

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<v Speaker 2>really a slush fund to fund the allies of the

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<v Speaker 2>President of the United States, including potentially to pay off

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<v Speaker 2>the January sixth rioters. Now, a lot of the Republican

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<v Speaker 2>Party has been fine with that, but these two senators,

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<v Speaker 2>as you suggested, in the Republican Party.

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<v Speaker 3>Seemed that at a moment anyway to.

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<v Speaker 2>Have a conscience and to say, you know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to vote for somebody that approved all of this.

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<v Speaker 2>And yet you know the thing that they still are

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<v Speaker 2>saying that, But yet they're being naive. It looks like

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<v Speaker 2>and thinking, well, as long as Donald Trump and or

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<v Speaker 2>Todd blanche in particular puts into writing a promise that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to do this, then we can trust it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now when they're pushed, I've seen comments that suggest they realize, like, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we can't hold him to these promises. But really,

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<v Speaker 2>the assumption that there's any trust in an administration that

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<v Speaker 2>is trying to do this in the first place, I

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<v Speaker 2>think that, yes, it really is, but it does you know, John, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll talk a lot about history. I want to say

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<v Speaker 2>one last thing. There is this tradition of getting promises

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<v Speaker 2>from nominees that were carried out, and so the most

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<v Speaker 2>important I think is Elliott Richardson, the Attorney General, who

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<v Speaker 2>is in the midst of the Watergate scandal, not just

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<v Speaker 2>nominated but confirmed to the Senate, promises he's not going

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<v Speaker 2>to stop the investigation, he's not going to fire Archibald Cox,

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<v Speaker 2>the special prosecutor looking into Nixon's crimes, and he stays

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<v Speaker 2>true to that promise. He basically says, fire me rather

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<v Speaker 2>than see me do this because I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>break and this is how we put it. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to break my word to the Senate. So there

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<v Speaker 2>was a past moment where these promises met something. But

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<v Speaker 2>yet look a moral age of.

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<v Speaker 1>The golden moral age of Watergate, when Republicans were men

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<v Speaker 1>of character. Yes, wow, we never knew how good we

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<v Speaker 1>had it. I mean, Corey, I want to ask you

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<v Speaker 1>about you know something that you just said, because it

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<v Speaker 1>seems like with the Weaponization Fund, doesn't the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>Blanche was willing to pitch it in the first place

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<v Speaker 1>before we're sending it, doesn't that on its own render

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<v Speaker 1>this man unfit for office?

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, John, That's such a great way to pull out

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<v Speaker 2>the really absurdity of the situation, because you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying, I'm going to basically destroy the Department of

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<v Speaker 2>Justice and the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is partly also related to Watergate.

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<v Speaker 2>There was an amazing Attorney General named ed Levy who

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<v Speaker 2>was appointed by Ford, nominated, I should say, and confirm

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<v Speaker 2>by the Senate. That's an important distinction. You don't just

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<v Speaker 2>get put there.

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<v Speaker 3>By the President.

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<v Speaker 2>And what ed Levy did was he instituted a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of these norms that we think are supposed to govern

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<v Speaker 2>the department, like don't well even meet with the president,

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<v Speaker 2>remember the famous tarmac meeting. Even interaction was supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be dangerous because of the worry that we'd return to

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<v Speaker 2>a Nixonian moment where the president was essentially telling the

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<v Speaker 2>Department of Justice to do his own bidding. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there is this history of norms, and what Todd blanche

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<v Speaker 2>has done is just destroy all of them. Now, how

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<v Speaker 2>has he destroyed them? He's basically acting as the president's

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<v Speaker 2>personal lawyer. So to get to your point, which is,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're doing that, if you're destroying the Department of Justice,

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<v Speaker 2>you have no integrity. How are we going to trust

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<v Speaker 2>that you say you're not going to continue the weaponization fund.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why I felt very uncomfortable on MS NOW the

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<v Speaker 1>other night discussing these two senators as performing any kind

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<v Speaker 1>of meaningful oversight or even procedural oversite. It was all

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<v Speaker 1>just theater. I mean, this man has gone from personal

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<v Speaker 1>defense attorney to publicly funded defense attorney right right, and

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<v Speaker 1>again if you want proof of that, and again of

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<v Speaker 1>the unfitness for office. The administration narrowed language regarding the

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<v Speaker 1>tax audit protections they want to give Trump and his

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<v Speaker 1>revolting sons, Fredo and shimp I mean, Corey. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know any private citizens, certainly not any convicted felons who

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<v Speaker 1>are now immune from IRS audits for possible tax fraud

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<v Speaker 1>in the future and in the past. I know of

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<v Speaker 1>three people alive that this administration says should not have audits.

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<v Speaker 1>You'd think our conservative brothers and sisters would find that

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<v Speaker 1>a bit untoward and unfair, wouldn't you. I mean, constitutionally,

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<v Speaker 1>are there broader equal protection concerns for when a government

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<v Speaker 1>is clearly creating a different legal standard for a few

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<v Speaker 1>private citizens.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it really is the destruction of not just equal protection,

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<v Speaker 2>but the rule of law, the idea of democracy because Republicans.

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<v Speaker 4>Voted for it. Every Republican voted for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, the President of the United States, you know, has

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<v Speaker 2>this immunity that the Supreme Court basically pulled out of

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<v Speaker 2>thin error, and he's doubling down on that with this

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<v Speaker 2>IRS deal, this fake deal again, a deal between himself

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<v Speaker 2>and himself, and also trying to extend that to his family.

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<v Speaker 2>And so absolutely, this is, you know, just a real attack.

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<v Speaker 3>On the rule of law.

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<v Speaker 2>I should say something too, you know about all this,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I think a part of the story that

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen talked about, but it was talked about

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<v Speaker 2>on this podcast. As you know, a friend of the show,

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<v Speaker 2>Sky Perryman, was our guest two weeks ago, the head

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<v Speaker 2>of this amazing group, Democracy Forward, and what we spoke

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<v Speaker 2>about was the way that she, you know, really was

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<v Speaker 2>her organization and these amazing team of lawyers, many of

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<v Speaker 2>whom are former DOJ officials themselves and are horrified about

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<v Speaker 2>what's happening. And I've worked with some of them, as

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<v Speaker 2>you know, on the tariff's case. At any rate, they

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<v Speaker 2>brought a case to both against the IRS deal that

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about, but also against the weaponization fund.

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<v Speaker 3>And just to remind people, the.

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<v Speaker 2>Way this worked was the IRS deal was not, in

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<v Speaker 2>the end a payment to Trump directly, but was an

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<v Speaker 2>agreement that the IRS had engaged in this weaponization and

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<v Speaker 2>so he would be given this multi billion dollar fund

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<v Speaker 2>he and the DOJ to fund his friends and the

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<v Speaker 2>January six rioters and those who were supposedly the victims

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<v Speaker 2>of shutdowns of political speech. Anyway, Perryman stopped it essentially

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<v Speaker 2>in the courts for the time being. Now here's the point.

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<v Speaker 2>Now he says it's dead, right Todd blanche Ye, if

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<v Speaker 2>it really is dead? And she we brought this out

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<v Speaker 2>in the podcast in a way. I'm not seeing any

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<v Speaker 2>media covering this. So I know a lot of journalists

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<v Speaker 2>are listening to this show, and I hope that they're

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to use this moment to report on this.

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<v Speaker 2>That lawsuit hasn't been dropped. So how can all this

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<v Speaker 2>bs about where there was a letter and we're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to do the weaponization fund? And I promise, and

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<v Speaker 2>I promise, you know he's got his fingers crossed behind

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<v Speaker 2>his back, And how do I know that because he

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't dropped the cads just give up? Why litigate in

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<v Speaker 2>court on behalf of a weaponization fund that's dead. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that was a really powerful argument. And that's the

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<v Speaker 2>real litmus test, not what he says, not what letter

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<v Speaker 2>he promises, and.

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<v Speaker 3>All this back and forth. The reason for their suspicion

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<v Speaker 3>should be.

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<v Speaker 2>At its height no matter what he says, because he

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't dropped the case.

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<v Speaker 4>What does it say that these senators would vote to

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<v Speaker 4>advance this nomination for a man they acknowledged they don't

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<v Speaker 4>believe when he's sworn under oath. I mean, they don't

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<v Speaker 4>accept his word under oath on camera. That's not enough

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<v Speaker 4>for him to believe it. And they vote for him anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>And again, this is all just days after the DOJ

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<v Speaker 1>subpoena is targeting the New York Times reporters.

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<v Speaker 4>Can I ask you about this?

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<v Speaker 1>I know that on a constitutional level there has to

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<v Speaker 1>be a line between legitimate leak investigations and protecting a

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<v Speaker 1>free press. But the DOJ withdrew these subpoenas after a

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<v Speaker 1>federal judge said, no, you didn't follow procedure, So unlike

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<v Speaker 1>these Republican senators and the Congress, at least one judge

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<v Speaker 1>is practicing some judicial oversight out there. But how insane

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<v Speaker 1>and illegal was this? They're subpoena New York Times reporters

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<v Speaker 1>and he still shows up at the correspondence dinner.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, if we're going to make a list

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<v Speaker 2>of what's wrong with the blanche nomination and the reason

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<v Speaker 2>why every Republican senator, every Democratic senator should be voting, no,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not what's happening.

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<v Speaker 3>This is high on the list.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked about the DOJ slush fund, the creation of

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<v Speaker 2>the slush fund, the fake IRS case that came from it,

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<v Speaker 2>with a federal judges called a fraud on the court.

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<v Speaker 2>And now we're onto this other topic, which is that,

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<v Speaker 2>under Blanche's direction of the Department of Justice, another nominee,

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<v Speaker 2>who we're going to talk about, Jay Clayton, who is

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<v Speaker 2>now the Director of National Intelligence, a totally frightening thought.

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<v Speaker 3>Subpoena these journalists.

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<v Speaker 2>Now they trying to back out of this, claiming, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>they were never really subpoenaed because they were targets of

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<v Speaker 2>the investigation.

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<v Speaker 3>They weren't criminal targets.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a distinction in prosecution between the target of the

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<v Speaker 2>investigation and somebody who's essentially a witness, and somehow they

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<v Speaker 2>were just well, what was the crime. We haven't even

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<v Speaker 2>heard that. And what was obviously happening here was, although

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<v Speaker 2>they knew they weren't going to get a conviction, harassment

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<v Speaker 2>to create that chilling effect that we're often talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>not to prosecute anybody in the way John Adams did

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<v Speaker 2>and get a conviction and put people in prison, but

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<v Speaker 2>to make them think twice before they do. Another story

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<v Speaker 2>about a bribe plane. That's what the story was about.

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<v Speaker 2>The cutter gave Donald Trump this bribe plane, and the

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times was investigating on why it needed to

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<v Speaker 2>be retrofitted because it wasn't prepared to have the defenses

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<v Speaker 2>to cover to carry a president of the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>So, you know, here we are again.

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<v Speaker 2>The main point is there's this story after story, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's all under his leadership. If he found out, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe wanted to blame it on Jay Clayton, that he

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<v Speaker 2>was the one to do it, he could have stopped it,

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<v Speaker 2>or he could have called it out, and he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>do anything of the sort. To talk about how far

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<v Speaker 2>we are from Watergate, think of how far that is

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<v Speaker 2>from a devoted Republican. Elliott Richardson was a devoted Republican

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<v Speaker 2>who had served multiple cabinet positions, nominated to be Attorney General,

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<v Speaker 2>he was a party stalwart.

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<v Speaker 3>And yet you know heid by.

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<v Speaker 2>His word, which is I'm not going to stop the

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<v Speaker 2>investigation of Richard Nixon. Look how far we are we

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<v Speaker 2>have somebody who's just presided over destruction of the Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Justice and presided essentially over an attack on democracy,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we're supposed to trust them.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think so.

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<v Speaker 2>Republican senators who have turned their backs on democracy.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, as bad as you make it sound, I want

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<v Speaker 1>to remind people it's worse because the DOJ wasn't just

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<v Speaker 1>seeking reporters phone records, but they wanted records involving their

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<v Speaker 1>family members. Right, try to imagine what would have happened

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<v Speaker 1>if Barack Obama wanted the phone records of Sean Hannity's

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<v Speaker 1>trophy wife. I mean, like, try to imagine if a

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<v Speaker 1>democratic president had tried to get the call records of

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<v Speaker 1>a right wing journalist family members. I mean, doesn't this

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<v Speaker 1>raise constitutional and civil liberties concerns?

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<v Speaker 2>You know it does, and you know, sometimes you have

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<v Speaker 2>to go I'm always talking about hope on this show,

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<v Speaker 2>and one thing that I really do think is hopeful

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<v Speaker 2>is that we forget some times where the norms, where

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<v Speaker 2>the rules of the Department of Justice came from. And

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<v Speaker 2>Nixon was so terrible, not just in the crimes of Watergate,

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<v Speaker 2>but in his attack on political opponents, his abuse of

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<v Speaker 2>the irs, his attempt to manipulate actually antitrust suits, including

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<v Speaker 2>one involving a company called Itt, and over and over

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<v Speaker 2>these abuses were coming to light. And when Ford took

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<v Speaker 2>after Nixon resigned, Ford takes his place. This new Attorney General,

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<v Speaker 2>ed Levy again had been the president of University of Chicago.

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<v Speaker 2>He picked somebody who wasn't his friend, who was at

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<v Speaker 2>the height of the legal profession. And you know the

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<v Speaker 2>institution of these norms, which say you're not even supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to the president, much less allow the president

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<v Speaker 2>to commandeer the department, and the department is supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>defend the people, not the personal interests of the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>Those were in place so much so that if any

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<v Speaker 2>president violated them, even in the slightest and I do

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<v Speaker 2>think this was true of Democratic and Republican presidents, that

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<v Speaker 2>what would happen is the press would go crazy. It

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<v Speaker 2>would be a scandal, even a discussion, And that's what

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<v Speaker 2>we were Now.

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<v Speaker 3>Todd Blanche really has destroyed that. I mean completely.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been on the run in the first Trump administration.

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly we saw a tax on it with Bill Barr

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<v Speaker 2>and others, and we could talk about that, but this

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<v Speaker 2>is somebody who really is acting. You said this, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want people to miss it, not just as the

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<v Speaker 2>president's lawyer, but as his criminal defense lawyer, and he had,

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<v Speaker 2>of course been Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer in the

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<v Speaker 2>Stormy Daniels case in Manhattan. That's how he's acting. It

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<v Speaker 2>has blown apart these norms. One last thing on this point,

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<v Speaker 2>The norms themselves turn out to not be a good

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<v Speaker 2>way of guaranteeing democracy because if you just get somebody

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<v Speaker 2>wants to violate them, norms are not really a legal

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<v Speaker 2>check on this event. Right, That's why we're seeing what

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, right now, somewhere in hell, Nixon is looking

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<v Speaker 1>up at these guys saying too much.

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<v Speaker 4>Guys, too much, pull it back, pull it back.

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<v Speaker 1>But in the midst of all of this, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Senate Democrats are asking whether the White House played any

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<v Speaker 1>role in directing these subpoenas Corey. And now we're getting

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<v Speaker 1>into real Nixon territory, because how problematic would it be.

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<v Speaker 1>I know this sounds really impossible, but go with me

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<v Speaker 1>on this hypothetical. But what if Donald Trump personally influenced

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<v Speaker 1>criminal investigation decisions regarding I know it's hard to believe,

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<v Speaker 1>but what if Donald Trump ordered the code read Corey,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, so much of the problem here is getting

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<v Speaker 2>the information, and we have journalists. We had Jody Kanter,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the best, I think probably the best journalists

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<v Speaker 2>out there covering the courts, who's gotten us secret memos

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<v Speaker 2>from John Roberts showing us what's.

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<v Speaker 3>Really going on behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are other great reporters doing work about Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump and his secret orders. Yeah, but the problem is

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<v Speaker 2>how do you get that information? And so much of

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<v Speaker 2>what happens between the President and the Department of Justice

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<v Speaker 2>is concealed, and so the more we learn, I have

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<v Speaker 2>no doubt that as bad as what we're seeing is

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<v Speaker 2>that it's not a coincidence that his political enemies James

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<v Speaker 2>Gomi gets target. No, he tells us that, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>listen to him in his public statements, and so of

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<v Speaker 2>course it could be that these subpoenas for the brideplane

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<v Speaker 2>were at his direction, because you know, that's just how

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<v Speaker 2>he operates.

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<v Speaker 3>Again and again, one thing on this.

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<v Speaker 2>Is, you know, we do need there's so many pieces

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<v Speaker 2>of legislation we need to recover from this mass and

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<v Speaker 2>the hope is that as we see how bad it is,

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<v Speaker 2>we see the laws that we need to recover. And

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<v Speaker 2>we talked with Senator Wyden who's been at the forefront

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<v Speaker 2>of a lot of these battles about the need for

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<v Speaker 2>legislation that would allow people to get access to this information.

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<v Speaker 3>The jaw Boning Act is one example.

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<v Speaker 2>Katie Fang is using the Epstein Files Act in a

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<v Speaker 2>totally innovative way to get access for journalists. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of thing that we need more and more

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<v Speaker 2>and more laws that are going to.

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<v Speaker 4>Do this absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, again, Donald Trump really is not going

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to persecute James Comey as fully as

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<v Speaker 1>he'd like unless he has really creative ways to cheat

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<v Speaker 1>in the upcoming midterms. And we've talked extensively about how

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<v Speaker 1>they've been trying to since early twenty twenty five with

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<v Speaker 1>Jerry benderin in Texas in a very off year from

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<v Speaker 1>a census. So they're now asking the Supreme Court to

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<v Speaker 1>revive portions of their old executive order that affect mail voting.

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<v Speaker 1>Once again, Donald Trump, a guy who votes by mail,

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<v Speaker 1>is trying to make it harder for people to vote

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<v Speaker 1>by mail, because, as we've said, it's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>deaf by a thousand cuts. They're going to try to

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<v Speaker 1>make a little bit harder with a voter ID law

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit harder with getting rid of drop boxes

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<v Speaker 1>over here, maybe the Save Act and you ladies change

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<v Speaker 1>your name a little bit harder. I mean, what constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>questions are at the center of this case, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>take a means of exercising a right away from citizens.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, let's start from the beginning that what

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<v Speaker 2>the Post Office is being tolled by Donald Trump is

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<v Speaker 2>that there is massive voter fraud. And to say the

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<v Speaker 2>obvious listeners are not going to be surprised by this

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<v Speaker 2>in the least, there is no such voter fraud. This

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<v Speaker 2>is the same kind of thing he's been saying since

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty twenty election, when he claimed again and again

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<v Speaker 2>that there was voter fraud and there wasn't And now

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<v Speaker 2>he's doing it again.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is that he's saying it this time not

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<v Speaker 2>to courts, who are an independent branch of government that

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<v Speaker 2>are going to push back, but to the Post Office,

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<v Speaker 2>which is dependent in many ways. It is part of

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<v Speaker 2>the executive branch. And with the theory of the unitary executive,

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<v Speaker 2>this Supreme Court has strengthened the position of the president

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<v Speaker 2>over any civil servant in the executive branch. Even though

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<v Speaker 2>there are laws that govern the executive branch.

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<v Speaker 3>That's how it's worked.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Department of Justice and the Solicitor General. I

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<v Speaker 2>just went and looked at this argument to see how

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<v Speaker 2>blatant it is. Is essentially saying, what are you talking

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<v Speaker 2>about that the president can't stop fraud. That's not up

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<v Speaker 2>to you the courts to decide. That's between the president

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<v Speaker 2>and his employees. Through the theory of the unitary executive,

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<v Speaker 2>the Post Office are his employees. Now, a federal court

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<v Speaker 2>has pushed back the Court of Appeals.

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<v Speaker 3>It's gone to and what.

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<v Speaker 2>That court has said is, no, the president can't say

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<v Speaker 2>that you have to do things that are illegal. You

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<v Speaker 2>can't do things that are going to undermine the state

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<v Speaker 2>constitutional ability of the states in the document to regulate elections.

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<v Speaker 2>And you can't go back on prior agreements that keep

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<v Speaker 2>from the politicization of the Post Office. So you have

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<v Speaker 2>these two battles happening now. So far, the winning argument,

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<v Speaker 2>thankfully is the rule of law that says, yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter what branch are and you can't break the

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<v Speaker 2>law period. You can't undermine the power of the states

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<v Speaker 2>just because you're in the Post Office. And that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of the executive branch. But what's the Supreme Court going

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<v Speaker 2>to say eventually? I'm not sure because they are the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that have built up this theory of the unitary executive. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>even in the Court of Appeals there was you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the three judges agreed basically to put a stop to this,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was a trumpet point to judge who had

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of wiggle room in there when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to the ability of the president of the United States

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<v Speaker 2>to control the Post Office.

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<v Speaker 3>And so this is scary stuff. John definitely, Well.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, and again, these like Trump, the Supreme Court,

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<v Speaker 1>their executive power is something they treat like I treat

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<v Speaker 1>my airplane carry on bags. I'm trying to see how

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<v Speaker 1>much more stuff I can keep on stuffing into it

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<v Speaker 1>every time and cram more and more into it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I went to public school, professor, but

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<v Speaker 1>I always thought elections were administered by the states. Seems

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<v Speaker 1>like this is a states rights issue, except that's only

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<v Speaker 1>deployed when people are trying to justify racism. Where in

424
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.400
<v Speaker 1>this instance does presidential authority end and state authority begin?

425
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Because it seems like this Supreme Court is going to

426
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.000
<v Speaker 1>have to do some really creative dancing to make this fly.

427
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I love this airplane analogy that you know,

428
00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:54.960
<v Speaker 2>you're exactly right that what the theory of the unitary

429
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.119
<v Speaker 2>executive is becoming is a theory of everything. So what's

430
00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:01.200
<v Speaker 2>in the executive branch? What are the powers everything?

431
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.880
<v Speaker 3>More and more? What about the power to destroy.

432
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.759
<v Speaker 2>The laws that are supposed to govern the civil service?

433
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:11.559
<v Speaker 2>Put that in the unitary executive and destroy it, get rid.

434
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:12.839
<v Speaker 3>Of all of those laws.

435
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.519
<v Speaker 2>Put the power of the states is supposed to be

436
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.160
<v Speaker 2>independent of the federal government and certainly of the presidency,

437
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.119
<v Speaker 2>in the executive branch. Well, let's put that in the

438
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:25.440
<v Speaker 2>theory of executive power. And so it's trying to swallow

439
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:27.799
<v Speaker 2>up everything. And notice how they do it. You know,

440
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>lawyers are so crafty. And these lawyers, the lawyers of

441
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.319
<v Speaker 2>the unitary executive, which go back and you know, part

442
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.279
<v Speaker 2>of what I'm talking about in my book is the

443
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.960
<v Speaker 2>lawyers of the nineteen eighties, people like Elito and people

444
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.839
<v Speaker 2>like Roberts, who were crafting this theory of the unitary executive.

445
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.039
<v Speaker 2>It's the same people people that's who's doing it.

446
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.079
<v Speaker 3>And they are expanding and expanding it.

447
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.319
<v Speaker 2>And that's what's really scaring me about this case because

448
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.039
<v Speaker 2>when I read what the Solicitor General is saying in

449
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.640
<v Speaker 2>the brief, it essentially is no, this has nothing to

450
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.839
<v Speaker 2>do with courts. It's all between the president and his

451
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.680
<v Speaker 2>employee who he has command total loyalty from and has

452
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.319
<v Speaker 2>to do what he says. And you know, that's how

453
00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.160
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to skirt the law. That's what it comes

454
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.839
<v Speaker 2>down to. So far, not successful, but we'll see what

455
00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:12.960
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court says.

456
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Could a president with an obedient Supreme Court effectively like

457
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:20.960
<v Speaker 1>nationalize a whole election just through executive orders or would

458
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.720
<v Speaker 1>he still have to get congressional authorization.

459
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:25.599
<v Speaker 2>I got to say, John, you know the answer should

460
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:30.359
<v Speaker 2>be absolutely should be that you need congressional authorization or

461
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.279
<v Speaker 2>even you know that this again, the states have this

462
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.920
<v Speaker 2>role in regulating elections too, that there are all these checks,

463
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.279
<v Speaker 2>a check from Congress and a check from the states.

464
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:42.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, now, when you start to look at the facts,

465
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.519
<v Speaker 2>the way legal cases work, and this is something that's

466
00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.400
<v Speaker 2>so frustrating is we can state a general principle, but

467
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.359
<v Speaker 2>lawyers crafty lawyers, and let's not make any mistake that

468
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.599
<v Speaker 2>lawyers who have created and are extending the unitary executive

469
00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.079
<v Speaker 2>theory are very good at this, and they take this

470
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.839
<v Speaker 2>idea that the Post Office this is part of the

471
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.839
<v Speaker 2>executive branch, and they start saying, there's nothing going on

472
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.039
<v Speaker 2>here that's about violation of laws or even involved courts.

473
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:10.599
<v Speaker 2>It's just a president essentially saying, hey, we don't want

474
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:13.759
<v Speaker 2>to deliver fraudulent ballots, and so you know, look at

475
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.240
<v Speaker 2>the roles and if you have people on the rolls

476
00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.799
<v Speaker 2>that are not supposed to be voting, you're supposed to

477
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:19.319
<v Speaker 2>stop that.

478
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:19.880
<v Speaker 3>Now.

479
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.200
<v Speaker 2>Isn't that within the president's obligation to supposedly, as Article

480
00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.400
<v Speaker 2>two of the Constitution says, take care that the laws

481
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.160
<v Speaker 2>be faithfully executed. I'm making the point of the unitary

482
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.880
<v Speaker 2>executive theory. How frightening that might work.

483
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, the White House says that they're just

484
00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:38.599
<v Speaker 1>they're just managing their own internal federal directives like they're

485
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.960
<v Speaker 1>supposed to. But the state's just saying, no, you guys

486
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:44.240
<v Speaker 1>are already changing how we conduct our elections because of

487
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:47.759
<v Speaker 1>your order. So if the Supreme Court Professor allows parts

488
00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:53.079
<v Speaker 1>of this to proceed before the midterms, what kind of

489
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.599
<v Speaker 1>precedents are we talking about here?

490
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, the unitary executive theory started as a kind of

491
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.200
<v Speaker 2>wacky idea. I should say what it's basis is, and

492
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.079
<v Speaker 2>when I tell you, it's going to be upsetting, because

493
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.920
<v Speaker 2>supposedly this is an idea based on the text of

494
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.279
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution, and it's really only based on a phrase,

495
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.240
<v Speaker 2>which is that the executive power is vested in a president.

496
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.400
<v Speaker 2>And what they've done is use that to just expand

497
00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.240
<v Speaker 2>and expand what the president can do. And the president's

498
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.839
<v Speaker 2>total control, not just control, but total control over his

499
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>own employees. That's how they'd put it. Now, what's the

500
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.440
<v Speaker 2>response to that. The response to that should be, well,

501
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the legislative power is vested in a Congress, and it's

502
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:36.400
<v Speaker 2>made laws, and the Constitution has created structures that give

503
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 2>the states and Congress the power to limit what government

504
00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 2>can do.

505
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.400
<v Speaker 3>But what this very.

506
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.160
<v Speaker 2>Specific example I'm glad that we've gone so deep shows

507
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>us is how the whole idea, that the right idea

508
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of the Constitution, which we all learned about in grade school,

509
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.880
<v Speaker 2>of three coequal branches, how that is under assault by

510
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 2>this president successfully who doesn't understand in the three branches

511
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:03.960
<v Speaker 2>of government I'm sure couldn't name them and tried it.

512
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:06.240
<v Speaker 1>In the first term, he thought the three branches were

513
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:09.799
<v Speaker 1>the White House, the Senate, and the House. After he

514
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:12.039
<v Speaker 1>was elected the first time, he thought those were the

515
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>three branches of American government. And no one ever thought

516
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:16.079
<v Speaker 1>this was remarkable except me.

517
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's turning it into one branch, and that's

518
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.720
<v Speaker 2>the presidency. That's why this podcast, i should say, is

519
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.240
<v Speaker 2>called the Oath in the Office, to try to emphasize

520
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.319
<v Speaker 2>the idea that that office is created by law and

521
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 2>is beholden to law. And that's what's being destroyed by

522
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.559
<v Speaker 2>this unitary executive theory. And here's the worst part, just

523
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to sum up, the Supreme Court has.

524
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.680
<v Speaker 3>Again and again enabled.

525
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.200
<v Speaker 2>The destruction of the other branches, the building up of one,

526
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 2>the presidency. And we might see it here again, Corey.

527
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.480
<v Speaker 1>These guys treat the Constitution like a hotel room Bible.

528
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:52.920
<v Speaker 1>They know it's there, they're never going to open it.

529
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.759
<v Speaker 1>All right, we got to take a quick break. But

530
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.440
<v Speaker 1>when we come back, much more on the Oath in

531
00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:01.039
<v Speaker 1>the Office, including the never ending war against.

532
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.880
<v Speaker 4>A free press by these people. Be right back.

533
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.519
<v Speaker 5>The new John Fiegel Sang Show every day at dwelve noon.

534
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 6>Good afternoon, John, and welcome back to afternoon Radio.

535
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 4>I have missed you. Now you're back into the daylight.

536
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:21.279
<v Speaker 3>Good afternoon, John congraduates on the new show, loving congratulations

537
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.000
<v Speaker 3>on the changes happening with the show.

538
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:24.759
<v Speaker 4>Excited for you, Excited.

539
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.000
<v Speaker 3>For me personally, like, oh my god, I can call

540
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 3>it again.

541
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:31.240
<v Speaker 5>The new John Feugel Sang Show every day at dwelve

542
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.920
<v Speaker 5>noon on Serious XM Progress Channel one twenty seven or

543
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:36.319
<v Speaker 5>on the Serious XMN.

544
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:42.920
<v Speaker 4>Welcome back to the Oath in the Office.

545
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm John Fugel Sang alone with Professor Corey Bretschneider. I mean, Corey,

546
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.680
<v Speaker 1>you've written so much about constitutional guardrails. Which institutions do

547
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.960
<v Speaker 1>you think are under the greatest strain right now? Is

548
00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:58.319
<v Speaker 1>is it Congress? Is it the courts? Is it federal agencies?

549
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.359
<v Speaker 1>Or is it the free than us?

550
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.119
<v Speaker 3>Well us, you know, it's all of the above.

551
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.519
<v Speaker 2>But I'm going to just continue our discussion from the

552
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:10.079
<v Speaker 2>first segment and talk about the federal agencies because what

553
00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.640
<v Speaker 2>these agencies are supposed to be doing is carrying out

554
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.119
<v Speaker 2>the law, and we have laws passed by Congress.

555
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:15.680
<v Speaker 3>For instance.

556
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:17.759
<v Speaker 2>You know, if you're working for the Post Office, you're

557
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.880
<v Speaker 2>not supposed to be engaged in the subversion of democracy.

558
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:24.519
<v Speaker 2>And what's happened is that that whole idea that these

559
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>agencies are bound by the law, that they also civil

560
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.559
<v Speaker 2>servants also take an oath of office to preserve, protect,

561
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and defend the constitution. And yet it's being undermined by

562
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.640
<v Speaker 2>this demand for loyalty at all costs by the President

563
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.799
<v Speaker 2>of the United States, and he's demanding that from postal officials.

564
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:43.200
<v Speaker 2>We're seeing that in the FCC, I which I know

565
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:46.079
<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about, and you know, that's how

566
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:50.799
<v Speaker 2>this process of swallowing up the other branches, the administrative agencies,

567
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:55.599
<v Speaker 2>civil servants, jobs, the law, into the executive branch is happening.

568
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:58.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about ABC. I mean, the FCC has

569
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:00.880
<v Speaker 1>been at war with the free media. You know, hey,

570
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 1>they got Colbert fired and they've tried to get Kimmel fired.

571
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 4>Lord knows.

572
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:08.039
<v Speaker 1>We don't give enough credit to Monday Night Football for

573
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.319
<v Speaker 1>making Sinclair back down on that last year. But ABC

574
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 1>is arguing, Professor, that the FCC's review of their broadcast

575
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.359
<v Speaker 1>license is just retaliation for their editorial decisions. I mean,

576
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 1>like freedom of speech subject to management approval, right, I mean,

577
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:27.079
<v Speaker 1>how seriously is that allegation on a constitutional level, because

578
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.599
<v Speaker 1>it certainly seems to be exactly what the hell is happening.

579
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, all these stories intersacked, and the story here is

580
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>the story of the way that although the administration is

581
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.880
<v Speaker 2>claiming that CBS and other networks have voluntarily started to,

582
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, show more sympathy to the president voltarily, the

583
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.640
<v Speaker 2>real story is that they've done so under threat of

584
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>having their licenses revoked. And some of these networks, CBS

585
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>is you know, the worst defender, have just backed down.

586
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.640
<v Speaker 2>And what ABC is saying, thankfully, is I don't think so.

587
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.200
<v Speaker 2>You can't use the threat of retaliation to get us

588
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:06.079
<v Speaker 2>to supposedly volunteer to self censor.

589
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:07.839
<v Speaker 3>And this is called job boning.

590
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 2>That's essentially what they're accusing the administration of and job boning.

591
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:13.680
<v Speaker 2>To go back to the episode with Senator Wide, and

592
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:15.559
<v Speaker 2>I hope listeners will go back and listen to that.

593
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.720
<v Speaker 2>It's really important legislation and important idea. The idea of

594
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:24.279
<v Speaker 2>job owning is that when government secretly forces you to

595
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:27.119
<v Speaker 2>do something, it's not any less of a First Amendment

596
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>right than if it does it in the open.

597
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.119
<v Speaker 3>So there's a case, for instance, about a.

598
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Bookstore and Basically, the cops keep coming back and they're like,

599
00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:37.960
<v Speaker 2>ban these books, you know, but they don't do it

600
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:38.480
<v Speaker 2>in the open.

601
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:40.400
<v Speaker 3>They do it in sort of secret threats.

602
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.440
<v Speaker 2>And the court says, you know, you can't can't go

603
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>into a bookstore and tell them how to manage their

604
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.480
<v Speaker 2>internal dynamic and claim that it's voluntary.

605
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.839
<v Speaker 3>And you know, that's what's going on here.

606
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 2>And so one of the things that I talked about

607
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:57.039
<v Speaker 2>with Senator Widen, which I'm increasingly interested in, is job

608
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>bonning is hidden almost by definition. They're doing it in secret,

609
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and so we need legislation to start opening things up.

610
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.920
<v Speaker 2>And you know what, ABC, in making this complaint to

611
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the FCC and hopefully litigation full litigation will come after,

612
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.359
<v Speaker 2>is starting to give us an understanding of what's going on.

613
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.759
<v Speaker 3>They have the goods, they have the documents.

614
00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:19.799
<v Speaker 2>They should be able to get more documents from Brandon Carr.

615
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.960
<v Speaker 2>But this is not only you know, bad, it is

616
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:24.039
<v Speaker 2>illegal activity.

617
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:26.279
<v Speaker 4>But this is how close and USTRA works.

618
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:29.759
<v Speaker 1>Nice constitutional norms be a shame as something happened to it, right,

619
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:34.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, throughout our history have constitutional checks. I mean

620
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.359
<v Speaker 1>they've really depended a lot more on written law than

621
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:38.680
<v Speaker 1>on political norms right.

622
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, often, you know, that's a great way to put it,

623
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>because how do you prove the violation of a right

624
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.759
<v Speaker 2>when it's being done in secret? And that's so much

625
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:49.079
<v Speaker 2>of this administration that we've talked about. How do you

626
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 2>prove that Trump is ordering the Department of Justice and

627
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 2>not just Todd Blanche but also Jay Clayton, the head

628
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.839
<v Speaker 2>of the Southern District of New York, to subpoena these journalists.

629
00:31:58.359 --> 00:31:59.480
<v Speaker 3>It's happening in secret.

630
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.319
<v Speaker 2>Now eventually, you know, a lot of what I'm doing

631
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.279
<v Speaker 2>these days is looking in the Nixon and four documents

632
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.160
<v Speaker 2>and it comes to light, you know, decades later. But

633
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.160
<v Speaker 2>what legislation would do that allows us to peer into

634
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the dynamics of job owning would do is bring it

635
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>to light sooner.

636
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.279
<v Speaker 3>And you know another thing that will bring it to

637
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:16.920
<v Speaker 3>light is this.

638
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully this case and thankfully, you know, this has been

639
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.759
<v Speaker 2>the last since Donald Trump was elected, these these months

640
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:27.480
<v Speaker 2>have been a story and often in failure of courage

641
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 2>because people just give in. That's CBS, that's the universities

642
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:34.039
<v Speaker 2>like Vanderbilt that seem to be caming into this administration.

643
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.160
<v Speaker 2>That's the law firms like Sullivan and Cromwell that are

644
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.799
<v Speaker 2>going along with it. And in the networks again, CBS

645
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.359
<v Speaker 2>is almost like the poster child for non courage and

646
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:48.519
<v Speaker 2>ABC here is adding themselves to the law firms, universities,

647
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:49.680
<v Speaker 2>those who are fighting back.

648
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:51.759
<v Speaker 4>And I'm glad, Tolly God Corey.

649
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 1>Do you understand this administration is so evil They've got

650
00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.359
<v Speaker 1>us praising the Catholic bishops and Disney. That's how evil

651
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.519
<v Speaker 1>they are. We're embracing those institutions. Now, Look, this whole

652
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:05.920
<v Speaker 1>thing is nuts because it's like, I know enough to

653
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.640
<v Speaker 1>know that broadcast licenses aren't supposed to come with like

654
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:12.920
<v Speaker 1>editorial performance reviews, right, I mean, it's the FCC. They're

655
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.680
<v Speaker 1>not yelp, but they want this is all about content.

656
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.519
<v Speaker 1>And I know they have broad authority over broadcast licenses,

657
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.240
<v Speaker 1>but we've seen former FCC officials of both parties say

658
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.240
<v Speaker 1>that this is unprecedented. I mean, is there a dividing

659
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:30.079
<v Speaker 1>line where the regulation ends and the viewpoint discrimination begins.

660
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, the unprecedented, you know, I think that is a

661
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:35.880
<v Speaker 2>theme of this podcast that you hear it a lot,

662
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.640
<v Speaker 2>and if you you know, watch public media journalists who

663
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>are doing a great job of covering this. The one

664
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.079
<v Speaker 2>issue that I often have is when they start talking

665
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.000
<v Speaker 2>about history and they say it's unprecedent. No, it's not unprecedent.

666
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:51.200
<v Speaker 2>We've seen total shutdowns of free speech in American history before,

667
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:54.319
<v Speaker 2>starting with John Adams, somebody who didn't.

668
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:55.279
<v Speaker 3>Believe in free speech at all.

669
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>You thought, if you criticized the president of the United States,

670
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.200
<v Speaker 2>you should go to prison. And in fact he had

671
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:03.680
<v Speaker 2>written into the Sedition Act was the idea that it

672
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.240
<v Speaker 2>was illegal to criticize the president, but it was fine

673
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.280
<v Speaker 2>to criticize the vice president. It was Thomas Jefferson, the

674
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.519
<v Speaker 2>leader of the opposition party under the way presidential elections work, so.

675
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 1>That that was worse getting started on those guys, I know, yeah, you.

676
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Know Woodrow Wilson, you know, advocated for the shutdown of

677
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.159
<v Speaker 2>leftist speech, including the Bernie Sanders of the time, who

678
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:28.960
<v Speaker 2>found himself on trial for his viewpoints of democratic socialism.

679
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Eugene Devi and you know ran for president from prison.

680
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:34.599
<v Speaker 3>So there is a long history.

681
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, the McCarthy period we could talk about as well.

682
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.840
<v Speaker 2>What's going on here is it's not in the open

683
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.920
<v Speaker 2>in the same way it's happening in secret, and yet

684
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:46.760
<v Speaker 2>it's in some ways that makes it more dangerous because

685
00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:48.880
<v Speaker 2>it's harder to call it out. And that's why it's

686
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 2>so important that we have these individuals who are willing

687
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to stand up to it.

688
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, that will bring us back to Koby because I mean,

689
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.519
<v Speaker 1>I guess, as we've discovered before, posting pictures of seashells

690
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:00.480
<v Speaker 1>as a gate crime.

691
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 4>Corey, I need you to walk me through this. Now.

692
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.400
<v Speaker 1>We know that they've gone after James Comy because he

693
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.639
<v Speaker 1>saw some seashells that spelled out eighty six forty seven,

694
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:12.679
<v Speaker 1>took a picture, posted it on Instagram, and they're saying

695
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.920
<v Speaker 1>that this was somehow a death threat. We've talked extensively

696
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.639
<v Speaker 1>about how this is Donald Trump's m He punishes people

697
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.239
<v Speaker 1>who tell the truth about him by taking the court

698
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.639
<v Speaker 1>and trying to bankrupt them with legal fees over absolute

699
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:29.559
<v Speaker 1>rubbish cases like this. But Combe's attorneys are alleging that

700
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:34.320
<v Speaker 1>there was warrantless surveillance during an investigation into his eighty

701
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.920
<v Speaker 1>six forty seven Instagram post. Can you break that down?

702
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what has been accused and if it's proven,

703
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.400
<v Speaker 1>what rights would potentially be implicated here?

704
00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know you have a right the United States

705
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Constitution against unreasonable search and seizure.

706
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:51.159
<v Speaker 3>And if you want to comply.

707
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.559
<v Speaker 2>If government wants to get a warrant to spy on

708
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.559
<v Speaker 2>us or to investigate us, it needs to get a warrant,

709
00:35:57.559 --> 00:35:59.199
<v Speaker 2>needs to go to court and show that it has

710
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:03.000
<v Speaker 2>a reasonable suspicion that you know, there's some criminal activity here.

711
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:07.079
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, before the indictment, it looks like

712
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.360
<v Speaker 2>that's what was going on, that they didn't go to court,

713
00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:12.920
<v Speaker 2>they didn't follow the procedure, that they were just basically.

714
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:13.760
<v Speaker 3>Spying on their opponents.

715
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.639
<v Speaker 2>This is, you know, is talking about precedented. This is

716
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:20.039
<v Speaker 2>very Nixonian. This was what the plumbers were all about.

717
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.400
<v Speaker 2>What Nixon was trying to do with the FBI, getting

718
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:27.119
<v Speaker 2>them to spy on his opponents and you know, including

719
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:32.519
<v Speaker 2>in this case a former FBI director. So no, you

720
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:34.760
<v Speaker 2>can't do that. I mean, I have to say something

721
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:36.960
<v Speaker 2>about the case. As bad as this is, you know,

722
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 2>warrantless surveyed because questions. I mean, when I teach, I've

723
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.599
<v Speaker 2>written a book about the First Amendment called When the

724
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:48.000
<v Speaker 2>State Speaks, What should it say? All about the idea

725
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 2>about the freedom of speech and when government itself can

726
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.800
<v Speaker 2>share its own opinions without violating our rights. And you know,

727
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I've taught First Amendment and a variety of law schools,

728
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.719
<v Speaker 2>including the one which I will say I have enormous

729
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.320
<v Speaker 2>love foreign respect at Harvard University who are fighting back,

730
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 2>and when I did that class, this example would be

731
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.079
<v Speaker 2>the kind of thing I would say in the beginning, like,

732
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.000
<v Speaker 2>let me give you something that's like so obvious that

733
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.599
<v Speaker 2>you can't do it, and trying to claim that somebody

734
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 2>is issuing a threat when they're obviously using one of

735
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.199
<v Speaker 2>the most common expressions out there eighty six somebody doesn't mean,

736
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, well from their job, doesn't mean kill them.

737
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 4>It means cancel that what I mean is.

738
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 2>And so it's just almost like so much of Trump's

739
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:41.719
<v Speaker 2>administration is like this that it just strains credulity to

740
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>try to think about the way in which there even

741
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.679
<v Speaker 2>is an argument about this. You know, the First Amendment

742
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:52.199
<v Speaker 2>says Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

743
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.519
<v Speaker 3>But I also will add.

744
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.119
<v Speaker 2>To that that you know, you could give an example

745
00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:00.639
<v Speaker 2>that would just scream an abridgment of rereadom of speech

746
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 2>and saying that you go to prison for eighty six

747
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.719
<v Speaker 2>forty seven is as it's almost like saying I hate

748
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.440
<v Speaker 2>free speech. That's what Donald Trump's doing, and DOJ is

749
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:11.079
<v Speaker 2>doing and bringing these charges.

750
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:13.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, and again, let's be honest. I mean, tell me

751
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.440
<v Speaker 1>if I'm wrong about this professor. But like this case

752
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.480
<v Speaker 1>against Comy, it's already dead, right, it's never going anywhere.

753
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:23.199
<v Speaker 1>They know this case is garbage. They are just using

754
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 1>the court system to harass this man because that is

755
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.199
<v Speaker 1>what Donald Trump has done with the court system, because

756
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.000
<v Speaker 1>he inherited a lot of money and you didn't, and

757
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:31.880
<v Speaker 1>this is how he beats people up in the courts.

758
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:36.480
<v Speaker 1>The case itself isn't going anywhere, but their defense attorneys

759
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 1>are saying that after this whole thing happened with the photo,

760
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.280
<v Speaker 1>the Secret Service, without a warrant and at the direction

761
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.719
<v Speaker 1>of an unnamed high level DOJ official, did physical surveillance

762
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:48.960
<v Speaker 1>and they tracked his cell phone as he and his

763
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:51.440
<v Speaker 1>wife did a drive from North Carolina to Virginia. I

764
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.840
<v Speaker 1>mean that seems rather black and white when it comes

765
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:56.679
<v Speaker 1>to legality, doesn't it corny?

766
00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because it goes to you know, it's a it's

767
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:03.599
<v Speaker 2>a free speech violation, and B it's obviously a selected

768
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.320
<v Speaker 2>prosecution where they're going after the individual not for a

769
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:08.440
<v Speaker 2>crime that was committed.

770
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.199
<v Speaker 3>They couldn't care less about the crime. They're looking for anything.

771
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.079
<v Speaker 2>And my guess is that James Gommi is such a

772
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.199
<v Speaker 2>straight shooter that there is no crime, so they had

773
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.119
<v Speaker 2>to just make something up. But you know, again, here's

774
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:21.840
<v Speaker 2>what's scary about the case. It's so obviously a violation

775
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 2>of his rights to the free speech and also his

776
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:28.760
<v Speaker 2>rights against unreasonable search and seizure. We're adding to that now,

777
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.840
<v Speaker 2>and yet it isn't dead. And even though it's unlikely

778
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.199
<v Speaker 2>I agree that he's going to get a conviction, or

779
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.079
<v Speaker 2>that this will get to a jury, or that a

780
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.039
<v Speaker 2>jury would actually agree with any of it is it

781
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter. That's not what they're trying to do. They're

782
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.000
<v Speaker 2>just trying to a scare him and be scare the

783
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.079
<v Speaker 2>rest of us, because if they could do it to him,

784
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.320
<v Speaker 2>they could do it to you at me, John. I mean,

785
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:49.880
<v Speaker 2>that's really the bottom line.

786
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.599
<v Speaker 1>It's important they are They are trying to you know,

787
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 1>stochastic self censorship is the name of the game. And again,

788
00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:00.519
<v Speaker 1>the filing also alleges that investigative updates were being provided

789
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.079
<v Speaker 1>directly to Air Force One. Again, Professor liked the New

790
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.199
<v Speaker 1>York Times journalists. If it can be proven that the

791
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:11.559
<v Speaker 1>president was directing this campaign of harassment and retribution, then

792
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.079
<v Speaker 1>we're into some very black and white Nicksonian territory.

793
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.480
<v Speaker 4>Right, That's right.

794
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean that really was what Nixon was trying to

795
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.800
<v Speaker 2>do in all points, was control all aspects of the government, control,

796
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Department of Justice. He actually imagined using

797
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:28.679
<v Speaker 2>special prosecutors to attack his opponents. He certainly demanded the

798
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.400
<v Speaker 2>prosecution of Daniel Elsberg for the release of the Pentagon papers,

799
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.360
<v Speaker 2>and they knew they couldn't win that case, so they

800
00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:37.840
<v Speaker 2>ordered all sorts of dirty tricks around it. And you're

801
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:42.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing the difference again. They were often stopped by people

802
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:46.880
<v Speaker 2>like Elliott Richardson, people who might have been partisan Republicans,

803
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:48.400
<v Speaker 2>but who aren't going to go so far as to

804
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 2>enable it. What's different now is that the Todd Blanches

805
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:54.079
<v Speaker 2>of the world. I'll add Jake Clayton to that list too,

806
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.119
<v Speaker 2>talking about the New York case, and so many of

807
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:02.440
<v Speaker 2>the US attorneys miss purerou instance with her now thankfully

808
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:06.719
<v Speaker 2>ended prosecution of somebody supposedly for terrorism and destroying the

809
00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:10.519
<v Speaker 2>reflecting pool that Donald Trump couldn't manage to make blue.

810
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:14.159
<v Speaker 2>So all of these are things I think that wouldn't

811
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.320
<v Speaker 2>have happened in prior administrations. You would have had more

812
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:20.880
<v Speaker 2>secret ways of doing it, or in the Nixon case,

813
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.840
<v Speaker 2>he was trying and stopped often. But you know what's

814
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:28.079
<v Speaker 2>so scary is that this Department of Justice is turning

815
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 2>into the personal lawyers for the president. I have to

816
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.880
<v Speaker 2>say something John about history, because just to shape how

817
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:37.000
<v Speaker 2>important this is. At the founding, one of the chief

818
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.960
<v Speaker 2>objections to the whole system was that the attorney general

819
00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:43.840
<v Speaker 2>was going to work for the president. And that was

820
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.480
<v Speaker 2>the objection to the unitary executive in New York, for instance,

821
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.800
<v Speaker 2>which they had as a model Letitia James. The attorney

822
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.840
<v Speaker 2>general is independently elected. That gives her a way of

823
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.920
<v Speaker 2>saying no to the Andrew Cuomo's of the world. And

824
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:01.800
<v Speaker 2>if we would have had that situation elected independent attorney

825
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.559
<v Speaker 2>general at the federal level, that person would just say

826
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:05.320
<v Speaker 2>no to Trump.

827
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:06.400
<v Speaker 3>But that's not the system.

828
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.480
<v Speaker 2>System is in which the attorney general is in the cabinet,

829
00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:13.559
<v Speaker 2>in the executive branch. And that's what we're seeing basically

830
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:14.840
<v Speaker 2>eroding our democracy.

831
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.480
<v Speaker 1>And thank you for mentioning, Judge Janine. I know we're

832
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:19.440
<v Speaker 1>not covering her this week, but as someone who's been

833
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.679
<v Speaker 1>on her show and hung out in her office, it's

834
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:25.920
<v Speaker 1>amazing to see America's most famous boxed wine enthusiast be

835
00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:30.119
<v Speaker 1>demoted to deep state trader because she made the catastrophic

836
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 1>sin of looking at the reflecting pool evidence and not

837
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.400
<v Speaker 1>putting innocent Americans in jail's.

838
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:37.559
<v Speaker 3>You have a boxed wine with her? Is that?

839
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:37.840
<v Speaker 4>No?

840
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I know I did not know. My eyes still sting

841
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.679
<v Speaker 1>from the scent of it. So you mentioned, you mentioned, Yeah,

842
00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:46.039
<v Speaker 1>she didn't like me on her show. I'll tell you

843
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:50.159
<v Speaker 1>that story. Sometimes. You mentioned Jay Clayton, and he's tell

844
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.039
<v Speaker 1>us the story. I did her show, and you know

845
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:54.000
<v Speaker 1>it's it's not that satisfying.

846
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:54.400
<v Speaker 2>You know.

847
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.800
<v Speaker 1>I just said to her, she was just so nasty,

848
00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:59.519
<v Speaker 1>and I finally said on the air, you have liberal friends.

849
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:01.800
<v Speaker 1>She said, I admit you're a liberal. I'm like, I'm like,

850
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.239
<v Speaker 1>what do you mean. He goes, admit you're a liberal?

851
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.880
<v Speaker 1>And I'm like, I'm a liberal according to the dictionary definition.

852
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.880
<v Speaker 1>She goes, no, it'd make you're a liberal. I'm like, well,

853
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I am the way George Washington intended the word the

854
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:14.119
<v Speaker 1>way Jesus was it make you a liberal? And I said, Judge,

855
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:16.239
<v Speaker 1>I'll admit I'm a liberal if you admit to your

856
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.880
<v Speaker 1>audience that you live in New York City and have

857
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:22.440
<v Speaker 1>liberal friends. And I was never invited back on that

858
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 1>show after that. So aren't you glad you dragged that out?

859
00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:28.400
<v Speaker 1>So let me ask you, though, Jake Clayton your handshake, buddy.

860
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:33.039
<v Speaker 1>He's now been confirmed as Director of National Intelligence. It

861
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 1>was Tulsa that it was Pulty, that it was Chanye

862
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:36.679
<v Speaker 1>and Clayton that was Pulty. Next year it's going to

863
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.679
<v Speaker 1>be Kid Rocks. Hepatitis gets this job. But obviously there's

864
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:42.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of constitutional concerns. Jay Clayton seems to have

865
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:44.800
<v Speaker 1>got the job because he was willing to go on

866
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.360
<v Speaker 1>CNBC and say, oh, there might have been voter irregularity

867
00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:51.920
<v Speaker 1>in California. Three days later he gets the offer. But

868
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 1>while this is happening, our intelligence community is undergoing significant

869
00:43:56.079 --> 00:44:00.000
<v Speaker 1>workforce reductions, I guess, and that's one way to reduce intelligence, right,

870
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:06.760
<v Speaker 1>But are there constitutional concerns when major national security institutions

871
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:12.199
<v Speaker 1>are being substantially downsized by the executive branch? This is

872
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.320
<v Speaker 1>again national security stuff they're downsizing.

873
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean necessarily is a way to bring the

874
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.679
<v Speaker 2>point home. So the guy Jake Clayton, yes, I will

875
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:23.039
<v Speaker 2>admit I have shook in his hand.

876
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:26.679
<v Speaker 1>I regret, Okay, that's okay. I broke bread with Jude Janine.

877
00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:28.000
<v Speaker 1>We're all sinners, yet no one's.

878
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:28.440
<v Speaker 4>Better than yeah.

879
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:29.519
<v Speaker 3>You know.

880
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.559
<v Speaker 2>The fact is that the same person that we've been

881
00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:36.239
<v Speaker 2>talking about, who may be under orders of Donald Trump

882
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.519
<v Speaker 2>or Todd Blanche but regardless of who ordered it, he

883
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:43.280
<v Speaker 2>did it subpoena these journalists in an attempt to intimidate them,

884
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:45.679
<v Speaker 2>and there was no legal reason to do so. And

885
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:47.920
<v Speaker 2>now they're trying to back off, and it wasn't They

886
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:49.000
<v Speaker 2>weren't targets.

887
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:50.599
<v Speaker 3>Of the investigation. Bottom line is he.

888
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.079
<v Speaker 2>Did it, and he brought them to the grand jury

889
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.519
<v Speaker 2>in order to scare them. And now that guy is

890
00:44:56.559 --> 00:45:00.440
<v Speaker 2>going to be given the position he is not going

891
00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:04.199
<v Speaker 2>to be. He is the Director of National Intelligence that

892
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:08.599
<v Speaker 2>gives him control over this enormous surveillance apparatus. We talked

893
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:12.559
<v Speaker 2>before about unreasonable search and seizure. One of the problems

894
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.039
<v Speaker 2>with the DNI, with the entire surveillance system, is that

895
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.440
<v Speaker 2>there's a massive amount of search that's being done supposedly

896
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.039
<v Speaker 2>to stop terrorists. But we now know increasingly that some

897
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 2>of these warrantless searches, these are searches without a warrant,

898
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.679
<v Speaker 2>are catching up American citizens.

899
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:31.920
<v Speaker 3>And who's the guy that's.

900
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Going to be able to kind of use these weekly

901
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.639
<v Speaker 2>enforced rules, these exceptions to the Constitution in order to

902
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:40.880
<v Speaker 2>make the decision of who to go. Well, this person

903
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:44.559
<v Speaker 2>could use this international surveillance state to go after the

904
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.280
<v Speaker 2>political opponents of Donald Trump. Now that would have sounded

905
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 2>totally paranoid. I think three years ago.

906
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:54.480
<v Speaker 3>It's not paranoid at all. There's good reasons. That's exactly

907
00:45:54.519 --> 00:45:55.199
<v Speaker 3>what's happening.

908
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:58.960
<v Speaker 1>That's why Bill Poulti was made acting DNI because he

909
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:01.679
<v Speaker 1>had no experience, but he was a mortgage guy, and

910
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:06.320
<v Speaker 1>so he abused the mechanisms of national intelligence to harass

911
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Letitia James, to try to go after people who've told

912
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:10.519
<v Speaker 1>the truth about Trump and see if they have real

913
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:14.280
<v Speaker 1>estate problems he could prosecute and exploit. But I mean, again,

914
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.519
<v Speaker 1>this is Donald Trump, right and they're reducing intelligence like

915
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:23.519
<v Speaker 1>they're downsizing spies. China and Russia are updating their linkedins

916
00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:27.159
<v Speaker 1>right now. I mean, shouldn't Congress exercise a little more

917
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:32.480
<v Speaker 1>oversight regarding reductions in intelligence capacity when there are concerns

918
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.639
<v Speaker 1>that a president I don't know could be compromised by

919
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:36.440
<v Speaker 1>a foreign entity.

920
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, you know again in the.

921
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:42.599
<v Speaker 4>Answer story, hold, I mean, this is terrifying.

922
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:45.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, I want to just bring together this story.

923
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.039
<v Speaker 2>I think polls together so many of the different threads, really,

924
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:50.880
<v Speaker 2>all of them that we've been talking about today, because

925
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:55.119
<v Speaker 2>you have somebody who was thought, I should say originally

926
00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:58.119
<v Speaker 2>to be a person that would stand up to Donald Trump.

927
00:46:58.119 --> 00:46:59.760
<v Speaker 3>And that's why, you know he was the head of

928
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:00.440
<v Speaker 3>the SEC.

929
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:03.639
<v Speaker 2>The thought was if he is the director of National Intelligence,

930
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.440
<v Speaker 2>he can be confirmed because he has integrity. But the

931
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:11.440
<v Speaker 2>second that those subpoenas happen for those journalists, he was

932
00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:14.079
<v Speaker 2>making it clear he was sending a message to one

933
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:18.079
<v Speaker 2>person that no, he's not some schoolboy, He's not this

934
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:21.079
<v Speaker 2>choir boy. He is somebody that is going to do

935
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:22.960
<v Speaker 2>the bidding of the president of the United States. And

936
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:25.880
<v Speaker 2>now he's being put into position where, yeah, he will

937
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.159
<v Speaker 2>have enormous access to the information of Americans and is

938
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:31.440
<v Speaker 2>he going to use it to spy on American citizens

939
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.880
<v Speaker 2>who are opponents of the president. I don't have any

940
00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:36.679
<v Speaker 2>confidence that he won't, and in fact, in all likelihoods,

941
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:38.639
<v Speaker 2>given what we saw with these subpoenas, he will.

942
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Have you seen the Odyssey, Corey, I'm looking for way

943
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:44.400
<v Speaker 1>to get out of this beat. I'm looking for something positive.

944
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:47.280
<v Speaker 3>Did you like him? Well, we always want to talk

945
00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:48.119
<v Speaker 3>about heroes.

946
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.159
<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's a debate about The Odyssey that

947
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm following among you know, whether or not did they

948
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:56.880
<v Speaker 2>basically turn this into an anti war film when really.

949
00:47:57.079 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 3>The Odyssey is not. It's about glory.

950
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, there are all these academic arguments it's a

951
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 2>film that really is about heroism, about.

952
00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:08.840
<v Speaker 3>Wanting to go home. You know, I don't know.

953
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:10.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to tie it to the moment,

954
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.280
<v Speaker 2>to be honest, John, But I feel like it's something

955
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:14.159
<v Speaker 2>people should see.

956
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Should everyone should see. It's a film about cinema, and

957
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 1>it's the greatest reason to go to the cinema. I

958
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.800
<v Speaker 1>saw it in Imax in LA two weeks ago, and

959
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:24.880
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait to see it Imax again several years

960
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:26.199
<v Speaker 1>from now when I can get a ticket.

961
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:27.519
<v Speaker 4>It's just amazing.

962
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.440
<v Speaker 2>In New York where I am, I said, there was

963
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.119
<v Speaker 2>a showing that there was one seat available. I think

964
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:35.559
<v Speaker 2>it was five thirty am, so I was thinking about

965
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.159
<v Speaker 2>going again. That's awesome how much I liked it, and

966
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I probably will going. We'll see if I could get

967
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:43.639
<v Speaker 2>my wife to come with me, or I'll go by

968
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:44.880
<v Speaker 2>myself if I need to.

969
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.239
<v Speaker 1>See an imax. I mean the whole seat shaking. It

970
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.760
<v Speaker 1>just it really really works. I had a lot of

971
00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.519
<v Speaker 1>problems with Oppenheimer, and you know, a lot of problem

972
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:55.000
<v Speaker 1>and great filmmaking, but a lot of storytelling problems, and

973
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:58.199
<v Speaker 1>this was just so satisfying and a great time in

974
00:48:58.239 --> 00:48:58.639
<v Speaker 1>the movies.

975
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:01.440
<v Speaker 2>We don't talk enough about the idea that we're covering

976
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:04.679
<v Speaker 2>these stories week after week. They are depressing. It is

977
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.760
<v Speaker 2>an obligation to know about them, and I think, by

978
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:10.239
<v Speaker 2>the way, people should be educating their kids to know

979
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:13.239
<v Speaker 2>about the horror of what's happening. But it's all in

980
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.320
<v Speaker 2>the hope that we'll recover and there also are ways

981
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.760
<v Speaker 2>in the midst of it to reclaim our humanity, and

982
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.800
<v Speaker 2>that's one thing that works of art do, including this one.

983
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:24.159
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, we'll keep going to the movies

984
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.960
<v Speaker 2>even as we discuss the attempted destruction of the minds.

985
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeap, that's what it's looking like. All right, we got

986
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:32.920
<v Speaker 1>to take another break back in just a moment. This

987
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:35.800
<v Speaker 1>is the Oath in the Office.

988
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.960
<v Speaker 6>Hey all, Clean Kershner here, So friends, I hope you'll

989
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:44.239
<v Speaker 6>join me on my audio podcast, Justice Matters.

990
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:45.800
<v Speaker 4>You care about.

991
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:52.000
<v Speaker 6>Ethics and government, criminal justice, reform, a conflict free federal judiciary.

992
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:53.639
<v Speaker 4>I thought so.

993
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.679
<v Speaker 6>On Justice Matters, we take on issues involving the need

994
00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:01.840
<v Speaker 6>to reform our government and it's institutions, and we talk

995
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:06.840
<v Speaker 6>about real, achievable reform. I hope you'll join us. Look

996
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:11.639
<v Speaker 6>for Justice Matters wherever you usually get your podcasts.

997
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Oath in the Office podcast. I'm

998
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.719
<v Speaker 1>John Fugel Sang and I got to say Professor Corey

999
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Bretschneider is a man who spent years studying constitutional crises.

1000
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:29.480
<v Speaker 1>He never expected them to become serialized TV. Corey, I mean,

1001
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:31.519
<v Speaker 1>when we look across all these issues that we've covered,

1002
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:36.920
<v Speaker 1>the DOJ investigations, the election administration, the media, regulation and harassment,

1003
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:43.400
<v Speaker 1>restructuring of intelligence, are there any common constitutional threads besides

1004
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:45.000
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, our hair's on fire.

1005
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think you've got one thing. I was

1006
00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:51.679
<v Speaker 2>on CNN today talking about Blanche and one thing that

1007
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, this John from doing your various shows as

1008
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.960
<v Speaker 2>a guest, there's often a tendency to just sort of

1009
00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:00.280
<v Speaker 2>break down the story in the moment, to do a

1010
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:04.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of prediction, to do a sort of referee, you know,

1011
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:08.400
<v Speaker 2>or who's ahead scorekeeping. And I think the real key,

1012
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the whole reason why I wanted to start the Oath

1013
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:12.840
<v Speaker 2>in the Office podcast with you, is to tie the

1014
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 2>stories together, because there really is one story, and that's

1015
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that the president pledges to protect the law under the Constitution.

1016
00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:22.519
<v Speaker 2>He has to say that the first few seconds in office,

1017
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:26.159
<v Speaker 2>and every moment each of these stories is not just

1018
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:30.519
<v Speaker 2>about something that we disagree with or a partisan dispute,

1019
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:34.159
<v Speaker 2>but really is an attack on democracy. And sometimes, you know,

1020
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.840
<v Speaker 2>one thing that really hurts, frankly, is when I hear

1021
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.880
<v Speaker 2>people say if I'm attacking Donald Trump, that I'm being partisan.

1022
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:44.840
<v Speaker 2>I am a professor of constitutional law who cares about democracy.

1023
00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:48.559
<v Speaker 2>That's the reason I'm doing this stuff, because what Trump

1024
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:52.559
<v Speaker 2>is about each moment each of these stories is not

1025
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:54.679
<v Speaker 2>a normal partisan disagreement.

1026
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:55.800
<v Speaker 3>It is an.

1027
00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.679
<v Speaker 2>Attack on the whole creation of the American Republic and

1028
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:02.400
<v Speaker 2>really an attempt to turn it either into a monarchy.

1029
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:06.719
<v Speaker 2>That's probably his fantasy or more likely an authoritarian dictatorship

1030
00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:11.079
<v Speaker 2>and through things like the unitary executive. Unfortunately, he's succeeding,

1031
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:13.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, over and over. He hasn't won yet.

1032
00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:15.679
<v Speaker 3>But that's what ties all these stories together.

1033
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:20.360
<v Speaker 1>It just seems like increasingly our major political disputes always

1034
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.639
<v Speaker 1>just seem to end up in front of the Supreme Court,

1035
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Like the Supreme Court is now America's customer service department

1036
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:29.400
<v Speaker 1>for everything. I mean, is that healthy for a constitutional democracy?

1037
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:30.360
<v Speaker 4>Ooka?

1038
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:32.199
<v Speaker 2>I think the Supreme Court should have a role in

1039
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.760
<v Speaker 2>protecting the rights of democracy. It should have protected rights

1040
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:38.760
<v Speaker 2>of free speech. In the Eugene Debs case, it didn't.

1041
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:41.559
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes it has. It protected the New York Times in

1042
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:44.639
<v Speaker 2>the Pentagon Papers case in which Daniel Ellsberg leaked the

1043
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 2>secret history of the war. It has moments throughout American history,

1044
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:52.199
<v Speaker 2>most famously during the civil rights movement. Of course, Brown

1045
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.760
<v Speaker 2>versus Board of Education ruling that Topeka, Kansas is for

1046
00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:00.239
<v Speaker 2>segregation of students was on constitutional. Those are moments where

1047
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:04.039
<v Speaker 2>the Court is active and yet doing the right thing.

1048
00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:06.760
<v Speaker 3>But what we're seeing increasingly is the.

1049
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Control of this court by government lawyers, and again from

1050
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:12.039
<v Speaker 2>the Reagan administration.

1051
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:14.079
<v Speaker 3>Lawyers Alito and Roberts.

1052
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Instead of going to Justice Alito, Justice Roberts are going

1053
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:20.280
<v Speaker 2>the lawyers Alito and Roberts trying to engineer a system

1054
00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:23.559
<v Speaker 2>that swallows up the other branches of government into the

1055
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.480
<v Speaker 2>executive branch. And nowhere you know that the force that

1056
00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:31.280
<v Speaker 2>we saw that with right before this president won election,

1057
00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:34.559
<v Speaker 2>actually the day after my book came out, threatening that

1058
00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:38.159
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court often mikes crises worse rather than better,

1059
00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:40.840
<v Speaker 2>was in that immunity case, which was essentially a green

1060
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.360
<v Speaker 2>light for all of it. We saw it too in

1061
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the destruction of independent agencies. So you know, there is

1062
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.079
<v Speaker 2>a role for a Supreme Court. I'm not an abolished

1063
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:52.679
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court person, but I certainly don't want to

1064
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:56.800
<v Speaker 2>see it commandeered by government lawyers with an agenda to

1065
00:53:56.920 --> 00:53:58.960
<v Speaker 2>try to help, by the way, not.

1066
00:53:58.840 --> 00:53:59.760
<v Speaker 3>Just any truth event.

1067
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.239
<v Speaker 2>It seem fine in stopping Biden, you know, in all

1068
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.679
<v Speaker 2>sorts of ways, but to help this president basically succeed

1069
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.239
<v Speaker 2>in all his worst ambitions.

1070
00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I mean, I'm sure Congress will do something about it,

1071
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:13.800
<v Speaker 1>but I mean, Corey, congressional oversight is just what is it?

1072
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.000
<v Speaker 3>This?

1073
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:18.079
<v Speaker 1>It's just strongly worded disappointment at this point, are there

1074
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:22.320
<v Speaker 1>any historical periods that could offer us useful comparisons to

1075
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.719
<v Speaker 1>what we're going through today in terms of executive authority.

1076
00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:28.039
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to give you a really hopeful one.

1077
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:30.840
<v Speaker 2>And one of the main things I hear from listeners

1078
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:32.960
<v Speaker 2>is please give us some hope. So now here's a

1079
00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:36.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty hopeful one. There's a poll that was released and

1080
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.719
<v Speaker 2>I spoke to the New Republic about this, and you

1081
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:42.000
<v Speaker 2>can see my comments there in that story. But I'll

1082
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.360
<v Speaker 2>tell you what I say, which is what the poll

1083
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:48.239
<v Speaker 2>is showing, is that Donald Trump's approval ratings are plummeting,

1084
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:52.639
<v Speaker 2>and they're plummeting on a very specific dimension, which is

1085
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:56.119
<v Speaker 2>his threat to democracy and especially his corruption. That's what

1086
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:59.039
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the polling was asking about. You see

1087
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:03.400
<v Speaker 2>these numbers slipping and slipping. And I was asked by

1088
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:07.079
<v Speaker 2>the writer of this New Republic article to comment on

1089
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:09.280
<v Speaker 2>whether or not we had ever seen in a historical

1090
00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:13.400
<v Speaker 2>slippage like this, And the most immediate example was Richard Nixon.

1091
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:14.159
<v Speaker 3>We did see it.

1092
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:16.960
<v Speaker 2>He was re elected in nineteen seventy two, even as

1093
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:18.039
<v Speaker 2>Watergate picked up.

1094
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:19.559
<v Speaker 3>So it seems to care.

1095
00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:22.519
<v Speaker 2>But as the details of the corruption and when you

1096
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:25.800
<v Speaker 2>heard him on the tapes, and when you heard him

1097
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.360
<v Speaker 2>ordering the crimes, when you heard the way covering up

1098
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:31.119
<v Speaker 2>the crimes, that's when the numbers started to go. Now,

1099
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:33.400
<v Speaker 2>they went lower than they are now. For Trump, they

1100
00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:36.480
<v Speaker 2>went into the mid twenties. We're now in the low thirties.

1101
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:40.679
<v Speaker 2>But it shows, you know, the impeachment didn't come by accident.

1102
00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:43.679
<v Speaker 2>Congress gets courage all of a sudden when the approval

1103
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.920
<v Speaker 2>ratings go way down. So especially if Democrats take this Congress,

1104
00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:49.760
<v Speaker 2>I think it will go way down.

1105
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:51.719
<v Speaker 3>I'll put one fine point on that, though.

1106
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.639
<v Speaker 2>There is a difference between Nixon as much as I

1107
00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:56.800
<v Speaker 2>want to use that as an example of hope, because

1108
00:55:56.840 --> 00:56:00.119
<v Speaker 2>those low poll numbers were directly responsible. I think for

1109
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the fact that I should say impeachment began in the

1110
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:06.199
<v Speaker 2>House Judiciary Committee, and when Nixon saw that the votes

1111
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:08.639
<v Speaker 2>were there to remove him, he resigned before there was

1112
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.280
<v Speaker 2>a full impeachment in the House. And that would be

1113
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:13.039
<v Speaker 2>an amazing moment here what.

1114
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:15.559
<v Speaker 1>May never happened if Nixon and at Fox News, he

1115
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.000
<v Speaker 1>would not have even opened the door for Bury Goldwater.

1116
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:20.039
<v Speaker 3>Maybe I don't know.

1117
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:22.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because when the numbers are that low, you know,

1118
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:24.840
<v Speaker 2>Fox isn't going to save Trump.

1119
00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:25.400
<v Speaker 3>I don't think.

1120
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:28.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if his numbers go into twenty five percent territory,

1121
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:29.440
<v Speaker 2>we'll see.

1122
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 3>I think that.

1123
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:32.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, Fox's whole point is to keep the numbers up, right,

1124
00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:33.719
<v Speaker 2>that's the idea.

1125
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:37.119
<v Speaker 1>But no, no, there's Rupert. They're no different than Trump. They

1126
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.119
<v Speaker 1>want to keep their numbers up. Rupert is tearing Trump

1127
00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:43.519
<v Speaker 1>to shreds in the Wall Street Journal every day and

1128
00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:47.800
<v Speaker 1>still selling him as our savior on Fox News. Rupert

1129
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.199
<v Speaker 1>cares about his profits more than right or wrong when

1130
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:51.760
<v Speaker 1>it comes to Trump and everything else.

1131
00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:54.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, it'll be an interesting example. I don't

1132
00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:56.519
<v Speaker 2>expect I should say. And I think this is the

1133
00:56:56.559 --> 00:56:59.159
<v Speaker 2>point you're making too. That Trump is gonna, you know,

1134
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:02.480
<v Speaker 2>receive a bunch of Republicans who tell him to resign, No,

1135
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:03.480
<v Speaker 2>please step down.

1136
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:04.440
<v Speaker 3>That's not going to happen.

1137
00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:06.440
<v Speaker 2>But the question is whether or not the votes will

1138
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:08.719
<v Speaker 2>be there as the numbers dip, And I think they

1139
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 2>might be even if Fox is giving him lip serves.

1140
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:13.159
<v Speaker 2>And as you say, you know, in the same way

1141
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:16.840
<v Speaker 2>that Ruber Murdoch's newspapers might turn on Trump even when

1142
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Fox News doesn't. Eventually, Fox itself might turn on Trump,

1143
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.719
<v Speaker 2>they might decide that, you know, it's good for ratings.

1144
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:24.760
<v Speaker 2>That's going to be good for ratings to see another

1145
00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:28.239
<v Speaker 2>beachment and removal of a president, because that's very exciting.

1146
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:29.079
<v Speaker 3>Anyway.

1147
00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, the numbers are plummeting. That is a hopeful thing.

1148
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:35.039
<v Speaker 2>It's hopeful for the midterms especially. I should say one

1149
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:37.559
<v Speaker 2>other thing about the midterms too, also on the note

1150
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:41.000
<v Speaker 2>of hope, which is that you know, Victor orbon did

1151
00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:44.159
<v Speaker 2>everything he could to jerry mander, to essentially cheat in

1152
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.679
<v Speaker 2>order to stay in power, and the numbers of people

1153
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.599
<v Speaker 2>who came out in Hungary to vote against him were

1154
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:52.000
<v Speaker 2>so enormous that it did make a difference. And that's

1155
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:54.880
<v Speaker 2>what I'm hoping again that we'll see here, and these

1156
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.920
<v Speaker 2>low poll numbers I think help help make that possible.

1157
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:00.800
<v Speaker 2>One thing I was going to say too, is, you know,

1158
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.800
<v Speaker 2>although there is this parallel the corruption here, there was

1159
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:05.920
<v Speaker 2>corruption during Nixon.

1160
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.079
<v Speaker 3>The corruption here is off the charts.

1161
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:12.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, millions of dollars into this fund to fund

1162
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:18.559
<v Speaker 2>your slush fund, you know, the cryptocurrency scams, the bride plane,

1163
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:21.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, a thing after things. So I just think

1164
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:24.440
<v Speaker 2>that that momentum that we're seeing that's bringing down those

1165
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:25.360
<v Speaker 2>numbers that that.

1166
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:26.360
<v Speaker 3>Can only be a good thing.

1167
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:29.800
<v Speaker 2>And I'm optimistic about what's to come once Democrats, as

1168
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I believe they will at least take the House.

1169
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:33.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think you're right.

1170
00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:37.679
<v Speaker 1>We will never see a few Republican senators stop Donald Trump,

1171
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.599
<v Speaker 1>but maybe one or two of his own arteries.

1172
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:42.760
<v Speaker 4>Professor Corey Breutschneider.

1173
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.119
<v Speaker 1>What is the best way for our listeners to follow

1174
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:46.000
<v Speaker 1>you and keep up with your work throughout the week?

1175
00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:49.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts.

1176
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:51.280
<v Speaker 3>I keep seeing these great reviews.

1177
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:54.559
<v Speaker 2>Pop up on Spotify, on Apple. There is also an

1178
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:58.199
<v Speaker 2>Oath in the Office substack. There is a Oath in

1179
00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:01.360
<v Speaker 2>the Office YouTube which is takeing off. Check out all

1180
00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:04.280
<v Speaker 2>of these options. Listen to us wherever you get your podcasts.

1181
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.519
<v Speaker 2>You could also buy my book The Presidents and the

1182
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.639
<v Speaker 2>People Five leaders who threatened democracy and the citizens who

1183
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:12.119
<v Speaker 2>fought to defend it, which is both all about the

1184
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Nixon abuses in part Adam's abuses. I'll mention the other

1185
00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:20.840
<v Speaker 2>presidents Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, and Woodrow Wilson. But it's also

1186
00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:23.440
<v Speaker 2>about those who fought back, and that's where the hope

1187
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:25.880
<v Speaker 2>comes from. And so what I'm doing every week is

1188
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:29.920
<v Speaker 2>trying to draw inspiration from those amazing citizens who've saved

1189
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.000
<v Speaker 2>us in the past, and hopefully we'll do it again.

1190
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:33.199
<v Speaker 4>That's it.

1191
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:37.559
<v Speaker 1>The previous constitutional crises did strengthen our institutions, so just

1192
00:59:37.639 --> 00:59:40.800
<v Speaker 1>think how great things will be when this freak show

1193
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:42.440
<v Speaker 1>is over. Thank you all so much. I want to

1194
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:44.599
<v Speaker 1>think Wendy and Baywilp when everyone who puts the show together.

1195
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:48.119
<v Speaker 1>I host a show on Sirius XM Progress one twenty

1196
00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.639
<v Speaker 1>seven every day. We are now daytimes, five days a

1197
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:54.000
<v Speaker 1>week noon two three eastern nine am to twelve noon Pacific.

1198
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.159
<v Speaker 1>Thank you all so much for joining us, and thanks

1199
00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:59.199
<v Speaker 1>once again for being here on the Oath and the

1200
00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:01.639
<v Speaker 1>Office