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<v Speaker 1>In a surprising move, the IRS has effectively weakened the

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<v Speaker 1>Johnson Amendment by stating that religious organizations can now speak

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<v Speaker 1>about electoral politics from the pulpit without jeopardizing their tax

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<v Speaker 1>exempt status, so long as it's done in good faith

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<v Speaker 1>and within customary religious communication. The Johnson Amendment, in place

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<v Speaker 1>since nineteen fifty four, prohibits nonprofits, including churches, from endorsing

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<v Speaker 1>political candidates. Although rarely enforced, only one church has ever

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<v Speaker 1>lost its tax exempt status. Religious conservatives have long sought

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<v Speaker 1>its removal, arguing is restrict free speech. A legal settlement

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<v Speaker 1>now exact exempts sorry two Texas churches from the rule entirely.

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<v Speaker 1>Critics argue the shift could transform houses of worship into

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<v Speaker 1>political action committees, fueling dark money into elections. Most Americans,

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<v Speaker 1>including major religious groups, oppose pulpit endorsements. Civil rights groups

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<v Speaker 1>warn this decision undermines both the integrity of religious institutions

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<v Speaker 1>and the foundation separation of church and state. The story

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<v Speaker 1>is from NPR, published on July eighth, twenty twenty five. Okay, so,

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<v Speaker 1>first off, before we get started, I would like to

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<v Speaker 1>welcome our brand new guest hosts, Filaba guested. Hello, flabagasted.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing so well. Thank you very much for having

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<v Speaker 2>me here.

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<v Speaker 1>It is our pleasure indeed. And also may I please

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<v Speaker 1>say hello to Eli? How art thou nice?

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<v Speaker 3>Cynthia? Well, how's ever ready?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh? I think that we're all Peter King jellybean in

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<v Speaker 1>the place that we are to be nonprofiting, So, you know, flabbergasted.

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<v Speaker 1>Since you are our first guest that's here, I would

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<v Speaker 1>like to know what are your thoughts on this particular

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<v Speaker 1>decision from the IRS.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh. I think in a way it doesn't really change

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<v Speaker 2>a lot in practice, but I think it does kind

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<v Speaker 2>of start eroding some of the foundations that we have

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<v Speaker 2>set up as a society to ensure that our government

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<v Speaker 2>and religious institutions are separate from each other, which is

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<v Speaker 2>effectively what this nation was founded upon. And that's my

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<v Speaker 2>biggest concern. Like, in practice, it doesn't mean much necessarily,

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<v Speaker 2>it could. I could be totally wrong that there's some

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<v Speaker 2>people talking about like greater concerns when it becomes of

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<v Speaker 2>finances and money and stuff. But when we talk about

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<v Speaker 2>it in practice, I don't know if it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>change much, but it is an erosion of foundations that

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<v Speaker 2>really concern you on it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think that is very factual to

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<v Speaker 1>be concerned about the erosions that could be taking place

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<v Speaker 1>just because now you have faith based organizations that can

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<v Speaker 1>actually involve themselves in electioneering, which is a no no

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<v Speaker 1>for all of us who happen to be part of

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<v Speaker 1>secular organizations. Right, the ACA just not electioneer. We like

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<v Speaker 1>people to come up with their own thoughts. The only

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<v Speaker 1>thing that we do is like present the news. But

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time, we do understand that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>double standard when it comes to religious and faith based organizations. So, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to go ahead and put my next question

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<v Speaker 1>to you. So, can you see or do you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what are the potential consequences for a democracy and civil

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<v Speaker 1>society for allowing tax exempt religious institutions to endorse political candidates.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the consequences, I mean, we're kind of seeing

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<v Speaker 3>this already. I think this is nothing new, Like, churches

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<v Speaker 3>have been doing this for decades. The only time that

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<v Speaker 3>Johnson Amendment was ever enforced, it was mentioned in the article,

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<v Speaker 3>was in nineteen ninety two. So like if if that

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<v Speaker 3>was before April that year, that didn't even happen. In

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<v Speaker 3>my lifetime. So this change isn't really it's just cementing

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<v Speaker 3>what's already been de facto for like a long time

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<v Speaker 3>in my view. But I think as far as the

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<v Speaker 3>consequence is, what we're going to see is that because

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<v Speaker 3>this bareness boundary is no longer there, this line is

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<v Speaker 3>no longer there, now they have the freedom to find

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<v Speaker 3>the next line and start crossing that and like just

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<v Speaker 3>do that little by little until that becomes a norm,

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<v Speaker 3>and then that restriction gets lifted and now there's one

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<v Speaker 3>less boundary because like churches are no stranger to like

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<v Speaker 3>crossing lines like ethically or morally illegally. Hi, the Vatican,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm looking at you, so like it's not that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of what I think. It's sort of like there're just

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<v Speaker 3>this I called it like religious quantum tunneling, where like

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<v Speaker 3>there's a boundary there, but the religious movement has just

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<v Speaker 3>enough like momentum or energy that just a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>of that is crossing that boundary and we're just like, Yep,

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<v Speaker 3>that's normal, no problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, first, Eli, I like to mention that you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>that nineteen ninety two wasn't even in your lifetime. Fuck you. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 1>let me clarify it.

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<v Speaker 3>So I was, so, I was more then April of

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<v Speaker 3>ninety two, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So and so kids these days, I don't know when.

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<v Speaker 3>Depends on when when that actual event took.

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<v Speaker 1>Place, but sure, sure, yeah, you know, well whatever, good

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<v Speaker 1>you flabbergasted. We're going to keep this road on the show.

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<v Speaker 1>What are the arguments behind the idea of the Johnson Amendment.

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<v Speaker 2>The idea behind the Johnson Amendment is effectively that if

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<v Speaker 2>you make it where religious institutions or nonprofit organizations in

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<v Speaker 2>general are getting federal benefits but they're also politicking effectively,

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<v Speaker 2>then they're able to engage in politics while also receiving

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<v Speaker 2>benefits from politicking. Right, So it's effectively this circle that

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<v Speaker 2>is a circle of corruption that you want to avoid.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're giving people a tax cut and then you're

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<v Speaker 2>giving them an ability to engage in politics to get

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<v Speaker 2>further tax cuts or do other things with the tax

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<v Speaker 2>cuts that they're receiving, then you're creating, effectively in a

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<v Speaker 2>corrupt system.

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<v Speaker 1>Indeed, I yeah, I bet, I bet, I bet that

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<v Speaker 1>we can all think of certain policies that have come

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<v Speaker 1>out since we've been having issues with some of dark

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<v Speaker 1>money that has been involved with politics, right, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>just this a couple but we are still experiencing the

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<v Speaker 1>backlash of it, right because you know, now we have

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<v Speaker 1>and like I said, I think they look alike of

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of us have seen, you know, churches and

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<v Speaker 1>faith based leadership have like dared the I R s

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<v Speaker 1>to take away the taxes and status. I can even

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<v Speaker 1>think of what's his name, greg A Lott, who's like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't care about the Johnson A Mendment take away

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<v Speaker 1>my taxes in status. I gotta speak the truth. I

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<v Speaker 1>gotta you know, lift the bear.

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<v Speaker 3>God.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah he has to you know, wave a sword and

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<v Speaker 1>things of that nature. Who knows.

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<v Speaker 3>But by the baseball bat in the Barbie house.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yes, yes, yes, And I was like very upset

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<v Speaker 1>because I always wanted a Barbie dream house. How dare

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<v Speaker 1>you destroy that? But you know reasons. But I want

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<v Speaker 1>to know, I Eli, because you mentioned something specifically that

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<v Speaker 1>you were surprised to learn about. Can you talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more about that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so, and it was kind of based off of

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit of your notes.

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<v Speaker 4>But I was, uh uh, well, and I'll say this

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<v Speaker 4>this this here was like this was the first step

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<v Speaker 4>in like like preventing like religion running away in government, right,

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<v Speaker 4>Like in principle, it remains true that like they're not allowed.

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<v Speaker 3>To financially contribute to like electoral campaigns or political campaigns

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<v Speaker 3>as a church organizations, as a charitable organization, but that

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't mean that they can't like now they can encourage

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<v Speaker 3>their congregants to do so, or they can't collect tithings.

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<v Speaker 3>And then just like after they pay them themselves their salary,

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<v Speaker 3>make a personal donation, which they could have done all along,

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<v Speaker 3>I guess anyway, but it just kind of opens the door.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like, that's just that next line that I was

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<v Speaker 3>talking about a little bit ago, like since they're financial

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<v Speaker 3>if they're a most churches or a five oh one

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<v Speaker 3>C four or to have that designation rather than five

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<v Speaker 3>oh one C three, And one of the differences there

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<v Speaker 3>is that they don't have to make their their financial

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<v Speaker 3>books public, so they can basically it's just that next

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<v Speaker 3>line that they can easily get away with crossing because

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<v Speaker 3>who's going to stop them? And it's you know now

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<v Speaker 3>that they don't have to worry about catching a fade

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<v Speaker 3>from the I R S for supporting uh, like you know,

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<v Speaker 3>speaking in support of any given you know, system or

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<v Speaker 3>candidate and now they can just do the next thing.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I just think about, like, while I was

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<v Speaker 1>listening to you about when it comes to enforcing Ceartain

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<v Speaker 1>guardrails that are placed up in order for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>certain constitutional laws to be adhered to, and how slowly

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<v Speaker 1>but surely we're eroding them. It makes me just think about, like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so what is going to be the guardrail is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be put up right in order to keep people

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<v Speaker 1>from actually going too far? You know, we have in

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<v Speaker 1>like federal government, you know, regulators, right, we have inspector

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<v Speaker 1>generals what we used to to actually say what you

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<v Speaker 1>could and could not do and actually like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>step in and investigate certain things that may be happening

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<v Speaker 1>from the top level on down that would say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't do this because the law says blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 1>But when you get rid of that guardrail, what does

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<v Speaker 1>that say? What does that say to the institution, What

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<v Speaker 1>does that say to how to protect you know, people

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<v Speaker 1>from being propagandized by faith based leaders and how they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be led when it comes to their politics. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>and even like we're always seeing and we've been seeing

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<v Speaker 1>this chipping away of the church state separation. I would

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<v Speaker 1>say for the past like fifty to sixty years right

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<v Speaker 1>where we are constantly blurring the lines about what can

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<v Speaker 1>be said, what can't be said, what can be done,

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<v Speaker 1>what can't be done, and to the point where we're

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<v Speaker 1>just looking at just like I said, article said to

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<v Speaker 1>turn you know, churches into packs right five one, one

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<v Speaker 1>c fours instead of being like five o' one to

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<v Speaker 1>ce threes where they can give money to candidates, where

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<v Speaker 1>they can like invite what they which a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>them already do, invite candidates for them to go ahead

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<v Speaker 1>and to talk to their congregations about you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>they want to do if you send them into whatever

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<v Speaker 1>seats that they're going to be occupying at that time.

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<v Speaker 1>And we even did a story, you know, I would

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<v Speaker 1>say like a few years not like a few weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 1>where a pastor openly admitted that they received a ten

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars donation just because they were open about their

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<v Speaker 1>political leanings. And that was and I mean like it

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<v Speaker 1>was on tape and everything, and like nothing happened to

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<v Speaker 1>this person. He used to still run around like ain't

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<v Speaker 1>nothing wrong, you know what I'm saying, so he's like,

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<v Speaker 1>da da da da da, send me more money. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to tell I'm going to say more things that

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<v Speaker 1>you are going to like, and you know, and and

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<v Speaker 1>in the meantime, I can go ahead and just get

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<v Speaker 1>enriched by, you know, doing this thing. So all of

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<v Speaker 1>it is like so problematic. But you know, fiber guests,

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<v Speaker 1>did I want to ask you, if the Johnson Amendment

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<v Speaker 1>is no longer meaningful and meaningfully enforced, what safeguards, if any,

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<v Speaker 1>should exist to prevent tax exempt churches from becoming political

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<v Speaker 1>powers centers.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the best approach to addressing this as a

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<v Speaker 2>problem is to not have a rule on the books

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<v Speaker 2>that people can wave away with a stroke of a

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<v Speaker 2>pen as the way that we're drawing a line between

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<v Speaker 2>what we should and shouldn't be allowed to do as

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<v Speaker 2>nonprofit organizations or as churches who are getting nonprofit benefits, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's Congress needs to step up and create legislation

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<v Speaker 2>that can't be removed with that penstroke, because aside from

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<v Speaker 2>removing this Johnson Amendment, there are no other guardrails. There

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<v Speaker 2>is nothing else holding any of any of them accountable. None,

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<v Speaker 2>And so there's not a solution and we could just

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<v Speaker 2>put this back, but then it never had teeth in

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<v Speaker 2>the first place. And if we just put it back

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<v Speaker 2>into place, then it's going to be ignored even more

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<v Speaker 2>than it was in the past, because the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>it could just be removed under someone's whim means it's pointless.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we need actual legislation we needed, and we

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<v Speaker 2>need it actually enforced. If anything, anything that's actually put

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<v Speaker 2>back on the books needs to be enforced meaningfully. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we need to be doing if we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to be having this clear cut line between church and

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<v Speaker 2>the state in the meaningful way.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I hear you. What about you, Eli, same question

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<v Speaker 1>to you.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that kind of goes right back to what

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<v Speaker 3>I was saying earlier, like this, this was it. This

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<v Speaker 3>was the one that was like supposed to stop, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>people from doing that. Now that don't have that to

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<v Speaker 3>worry about, you know, they can just casually contribute here

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<v Speaker 3>and there and wait and eventually it'll just be the

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<v Speaker 3>way of the world. I think that I think that

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<v Speaker 3>it makes sense for people's religious views to influence their

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<v Speaker 3>to be careful to the decisions they make politically. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>So I they're going to listen to their religious leaders

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<v Speaker 3>when it comes to forming those opinions that form their

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<v Speaker 3>their voting decisions. So I think that it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 3>But like if if they're going to go, if they're

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<v Speaker 3>going to get advice to form those decisions from that clergy,

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<v Speaker 3>from those religious leaders, I think that should be like

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<v Speaker 3>a private conversation. I think that's and and and and

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<v Speaker 3>it it goes so deep, and it doesn't really like

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<v Speaker 3>what the thought I have there doesn't really answer your question.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have. I don't know what else it should

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<v Speaker 3>be that this was the one thing that was in

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<v Speaker 3>place to stop that from happening, and it's not there.

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<v Speaker 3>So it makes me nervous, and I hope that there

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<v Speaker 3>will be I'm going to stop that thought, but in

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<v Speaker 3>the interest of our organization. But I think in a

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<v Speaker 3>truly free society, there would be a time in which

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<v Speaker 3>this Johnson Amendment is adequately enforced and there is a

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<v Speaker 3>lot less relious influence in governance.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I was just thinking as he was

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how I've recently had a conversation with the theist,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was alluded to how a lot of us

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<v Speaker 1>have watched debates over time where apologists will make a

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<v Speaker 1>mistake and say that there is an atheist world view,

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<v Speaker 1>like there is a specific atheist world view, and that

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<v Speaker 1>always makes me go insane because atheists are varying when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to their world views, and being an atheist

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<v Speaker 1>is not a worldview in itself. It's just a position.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you believe in a God or God's answer?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So, but I can say personally that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>being secular, being a non believer, does influence some of

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<v Speaker 1>my worldview, but there are going to be other factors

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<v Speaker 1>that are more predominant in my life that's going to

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<v Speaker 1>definitely influence how I think and how I how I

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<v Speaker 1>proceed in life, and including how I look at the

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<v Speaker 1>world and even how I look at the nation and

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<v Speaker 1>I and I know that if I had like some

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<v Speaker 1>what let's just like you know, as we always say,

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<v Speaker 1>if we had like some flying spaghetti monster that was

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<v Speaker 1>constantly talking to the atheists and say you vote this way,

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<v Speaker 1>you do this, you do that, I think that we

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<v Speaker 1>would balk at that, right. We would definitely be like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, shut up, fine spaghetti monster, get on my plate,

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<v Speaker 1>give me some marinaire sauce. And then also I want

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<v Speaker 1>all the parmesan in the world, right, you know, went

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<v Speaker 1>a little fennel. But regardless of that now making myself hungry.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, but that's where that stops, right, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>because like I think that, like all of us have

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<v Speaker 1>had conversations with other people who happen to be atheists

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<v Speaker 1>who were from a very different spectrum when when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to like how we lean politically. But one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that I felt was important, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>something that you know, we do and highly influence and

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<v Speaker 1>highly respect in our religion. In our particular UH organization

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<v Speaker 1>at the Atheist Community of Austin is making sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we have a way for us to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about certain things without electioneering, without jeopardizing our positions

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to to A five and one C three.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, like we believe in actually I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>following the rules of the law. That's why, Yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, you know, so when you say, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm was going to stop right here, I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel you because like I was doing that like

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<v Speaker 1>the whole time that I was actually just keeping coming

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<v Speaker 1>up with my notes. But I think that like what

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<v Speaker 1>can be said about all of this is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's if I want to speak for myself, it's incredibly

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<v Speaker 1>unfair for there to be a standard that's different from

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<v Speaker 1>you know, faith based organizations versus like, you know, organizations

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<v Speaker 1>like us when it comes to you know, how we

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<v Speaker 1>proceed with you know, political thought. But at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it would make more sense for a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of us to be like, you know what, even though

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<v Speaker 1>that may be something that the irs decided to do,

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<v Speaker 1>we're still going to follow those So with that being said,

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<v Speaker 1>I like to give both of you a chance to

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<v Speaker 1>get out your final thoughts. Flabberg A said, I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to start with you, and then I'm went to round

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<v Speaker 1>up with mister Eli.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you. I think what you touched on there

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<v Speaker 2>is really important in regards to the two things. One

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that this rule only seems to be applying

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<v Speaker 2>for religious institutions, not all nonprofits. So the entire justification

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<v Speaker 2>that they put out for this as a problem was

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<v Speaker 2>that it was an infringement on free speech. But apparently

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<v Speaker 2>free speech now only applies to religious institutions and not

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<v Speaker 2>all nonprofits, and so it's completely contradicting the basis for

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<v Speaker 2>their argument. It also shows that where the bias actually

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<v Speaker 2>is in this case. They're not trying to give people

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<v Speaker 2>more opportunities to engage in politics or not be curtailed

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<v Speaker 2>in their speech in any meaningful way, which is also

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<v Speaker 2>a misunderstanding what free speech actually means. But they're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to give effectively more power to people who they think

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be supporting them on these topics. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's a very biased approach to it. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>the other thing that's really important that we all need

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<v Speaker 2>to be aware of is this is not an atheist

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<v Speaker 2>versus religious issue. This is not a This is a

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<v Speaker 2>issue of secularism, which is beneficial to all types of

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<v Speaker 2>religious beliefs across the spectrum, right because once you allow

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<v Speaker 2>one religion and we all know there's a particular version

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<v Speaker 2>of religiosity that's going to be advantaged in this much

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<v Speaker 2>more than any other religion that you can't guess which

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<v Speaker 2>one that is. It's not Buddhism, my friend, that it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to negatively affect all of these Everyone, everyone across

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<v Speaker 2>the spectrum is being negatively influenced, not just religious believers,

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<v Speaker 2>different versions of Christianity that don't agree with the type

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<v Speaker 2>of Christians that are going to be taking advantage of

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<v Speaker 2>this new rule set are going to be disadvantaged by

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<v Speaker 2>this as well. So it's clear favoritism towards not just

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<v Speaker 2>religions in general, but particular versions of religion that tend

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<v Speaker 2>to engage in this far more than others, because the

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<v Speaker 2>other ones value, generally speaking, this idea of a secular

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<v Speaker 2>society because that is how you have a society with

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<v Speaker 2>multiple religions existing and thriving, which they should be allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And certainly, Yeah, so.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the I don't have the name in front

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<v Speaker 3>of me right now, but one of the people that

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<v Speaker 3>was sort of like involved with overturning this was coryas

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<v Speaker 3>saying or comparing churches talking about political views more like

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<v Speaker 3>a They said, it's more like a family discussion. And

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<v Speaker 3>for a second I was like, I didn't really think

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<v Speaker 3>that that was I was like, honestly, I kind of

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<v Speaker 3>can keep behind that a little bit. But then I realized,

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<v Speaker 3>like that would be the case if there weren't so

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<v Speaker 3>much like coercion and blackmail basically just like baked into

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<v Speaker 3>the whole concept. If the pass, then we're getting up

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<v Speaker 3>in the pulpit and saying like I think this person

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<v Speaker 3>is good because they represent these things, and that's how

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<v Speaker 3>I interpret, you know, what God is saying to me

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<v Speaker 3>when I read the Bible. I encourage you to make

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<v Speaker 3>sure that you understand what God is saying to you

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<v Speaker 3>when you read the Bible, and make decisions that align

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<v Speaker 3>with what God is saying to you. If that's what

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<v Speaker 3>they were doing, like that's one thing. That's religious guidance,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, for political views, but that's not what's happening.

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<v Speaker 3>They're saying like if you don't, you know, behave, if

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<v Speaker 3>you don't make this choice, then you're going to go

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<v Speaker 3>to hell because this person is God's chosen politician. And

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<v Speaker 3>that's coercion, that's black mail. Like there are people that

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<v Speaker 3>are actually genuinely terrified of what they consider or perceive

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<v Speaker 3>to be a very real possibility of going to hell

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<v Speaker 3>for violating what God wants. So that's not how you

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<v Speaker 3>treat your family or in diesel. But it's it's violent,

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<v Speaker 3>it's coercive, it's it's extortive, and it's exploitative. I guess

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<v Speaker 3>extortive maybe also, but that's not what I meant.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, all right, well, you know, I'd just like to

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<v Speaker 1>say this like. As secular humanists, we should ask if fairness, plurism,

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<v Speaker 1>plurism pluralism that is the word, and evidence based policies

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<v Speaker 1>are our goals, what do we lose when religion gains

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<v Speaker 1>unchecked political access. Tax three