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Speaker 1: Golf Smarter number three hundred and eighty six, published on

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May twenty eight, twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain

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insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the

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Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our

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interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations

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like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.

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Speaker 3: A fellow teammate of mine recently who in the PGA appear,

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and he came out to watch a friend of mine play.

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We're playing for Simmons, and we handed him a Persimmons

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driver to hit a shot, and he hit it about

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two hundred and ten yards. I mean, he just couldn't

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hit it at all. But with the modern driver that's

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ten ounces or eleven ounces and it's forty six inches

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long and has a giant titanium head on it, he

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can just sort of slap at it with his hands

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and get one hundred and five miles an hour of

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club hits. Bee knocked the thing out there two hundred

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and eighty yards.

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Speaker 1: And you don't like this.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't like this. It's dumbing down. The game.

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The thing that's been eliminated from the game has been

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having to hit long irons, and that's how golf courses

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are designed. But they're great architects designed these courses and

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they said, there's ten par fours on a golf course.

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So the golf course is designed to have typically three

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long par fours meaning two three and four iron for

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appro chat, and then they're going to have four mid

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range five six and seven irons for a pro schot

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and then three short part fours eight nine oher edge.

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So the reason that they do that is to test

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the skill set of the professional player, the top amateur

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player on a professional championship course. The player has to

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show their ability to play long irons, mid irons, and

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short irons. That's golf.

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Speaker 1: Today's equipment could be hurting your game with John Lagerts

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of this is.

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Speaker 2: Golf Smarter, sharing tips and insights from golfers and golf

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professionals to help lower your score. It's worked for your host.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.

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Speaker 3: John, Thanks for having me out.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming out to a studio here and

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staring out at uh at the Marine Country Club and

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talking about taking a little walk on the fairway there.

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Speaker 3: It's beautiful. It's a beautiful place.

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Speaker 1: Idiots. You know what I recently discovered. And I've been

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asking a lot of people and I'm no one's ever

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done this, And I'll ask you, have you ever walked

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on a golf course barefooted?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 3: That was part of my training at one point actually,

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how so, Yeah, I was working with I had a

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mental teacher that we were working that side of when

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I was on tour, and he had never played golf before,

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but he felt that it was important for me to

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experience getting more grounded while I was playing. And he

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was kind of more of a spiritualist in a sense,

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so interesting, and he would we'd go out t off

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at six in the morning. He just walk around with

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me and play barefoot. And he wanted me to.

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Speaker 1: Oh he wanted you to play barefoot?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he wanted me to feel connection to the

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earth that way as I was walking.

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Speaker 1: And it was that a valuable lesson for you, because

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I just found it's like just walking out on the

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on the on a fairway, it's luxurious. I mean the grass,

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it's yeah.

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Speaker 3: I meaning to do this when I was a kid.

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My dad had nice lawns around the house, so you know,

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I would walk around barefoot. So it brought that back

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to me. And yeah, it's it helped me feel something

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maybe that I wasn't really tuning into before. And I

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think later on, when I started getting more technical with

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my swing and that sort of thing, I started to

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understand ground pressures and ground forces and and Bradley and

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I spent a lot of time working on those concepts

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with the ABS students or Advanced Ball Striking students.

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Speaker 1: And that is your that's your.

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Speaker 3: Academy, our website, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Advanced ball Striking dot com.

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Speaker 3: Spall Striking dot com.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm fascinated. So you were working with a

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mental coach during the process or before you got into

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heavy part of your mechanics. I mean, where did you

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go first with that?

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Speaker 3: When I came I came out of as a youth.

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I was one of the early prodigies of a book

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called The Golfing Machine.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people are familiar with that, sure show

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on that.

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Speaker 3: And I did that for all through junior golf, college golf,

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and then my first year as a professional playing on

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the Australian Tour. But I quickly realized that that technique

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that I was being taught wasn't going to cut it

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at that level the guys that were the great players

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of that time. This was sort of at the end

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of the personmon age. I got to play against you know,

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Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, you know, these guys in the

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late eighties when you were still hitting per Simon.

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Speaker 1: And and they playing in the Australia.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, playing in the Australian Open, and you know,

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the PGA down there, and I was just a young

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rookie and you know, standing on the driving range and

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listening to the sound of contact, impact of what these

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guys were doing compared with the little golf machine swing

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that I had that was all kind of based on

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kind of a hand throw centrifugal force, kind of a

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swinging what we would call a swinging technique, wasn't I

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could tell that wasn't really going to cut it. So

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I had to make some changes if I wanted to

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win on, you know, at that level. So I just

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went home and I went back to my teacher and said,

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I don't think this is going to work. Although I

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was a pretty good player, I mean I was making

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cuts and that sort of thing. But I mean I

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was a long ways away from being able to win,

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you know, to go that low on those courses down

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there that were tight long, you know, really tough greens

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are super fast. I mean, it was just much more

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difficult than a lot of the stuff that was going

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on over here.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds interesting that you're saying that getting to

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the tour and winning on the tour are different beasts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, because in college golf, you know, I I

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won a couple of times at the you know, collegiate levels,

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and All American that sort of thing. Okay, Yeah, And

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we had a really good team and Kevin and Kevin

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Sutherland a lot of people might know that name from

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the PJ twos on the team with me and his

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younger brother David who played on the PGA Tour, and

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Tim loss a lot was another good player, and so

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myself and another guy named Doug Harper, and that was

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we had five All Americans on our team. We went

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to the NC to a championship, so you know, you

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don't see that very often.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, the difference of

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getting on the tour and succeeding.

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Speaker 3: And winning on yeah, so being able to win at

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the college level and being able to win at the

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pro level. I mean it was a big, you know,

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big leap. In college, you could shoot maybe three or

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four under and win a tournament, you know, and on

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you know, to of course, let's say like Pasa Tiempo

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or something here would be like a world class per

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simon track. You go down to Australia and now you're

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playing that caliber course like you Alster mckensey layouts and

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set up for tournament conditions with tight pharaoh's and long

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ruff or you know, fast, super fast greens, and guys

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are shooting you know, twelve under or fourteen under on

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courses that are you know, just feel like they're impossible

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to shoot those kind of scores. I remember playing in

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the Australian Open at Royal Melbourne and you know, Greg

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Norman shoots back to back sixty six's and I just thought,

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I thought to myself, I mean, there's not even six

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birdies out there, you know. If the greens were so

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fast and it's windy and it was just so hard.

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I mean I shot up pair of seventy threes or

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something and played really well. I mean made the cut by,

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you know, four or five shots easily. I played really

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good and I'm and I'm seeing a pair of sixty

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six is up there, going wow, that's that's another level.

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That's something that's and what is it? I mean, how yeah,

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well what you know, so that kind of that kind

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of golf. You know, Peter Senior another great player that

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was winning down there, and I mean these guys, it

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was just a different sound when they struck the ball.

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But that sound is being created by something, by something

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in physics, you know, it's something different is happening. And

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I had a high speed camera, a ten thousand shutter

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frame camera at the time, and which was not everybody

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had those back then, and I would I would set

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it up in front of myself and then behind me

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might be a guy like Peter Senior or somebody, and

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then they didn't know that I was kind of filming them,

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you know, like see like I'd get out of the way,

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like you know, go change clubs or something. And but

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I I put together some nice footage and also got

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some great footage of Mo Norman up in Canada when

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I played up there, and he let me film them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I read that on the website, and you

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said that you promised him you'd never show it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I still have. Like, I mean, I'll show

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it to people, but I'm I'm not going to post

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it on YouTube and all that stuff. It's just something special,

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you know. But anyway, yeah, getting back to that, So

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I started to study what was going on, and I

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could see what was happening with the shaftlex and these

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guys were holding shaft flex all the way to impact.

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And there's a difference between a guy that's timing the

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shaft into impact. They are, in other words, they are

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trying to time the straightening of the shaft so in

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other words, it flexes a transition and then it starts

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to unflex and you're trying to time it so that

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the shaft ends up straight at impact. And that's what

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we call swinging technique, and that's what most people do.

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But they're really great strikers, you know, you're Ben Hogan,

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people like that that are holding shaft flex all the

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way to impact. And again, you can't get confused by

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looking at power Golf and seing that where the pictures

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in the nineteen forty eight book, or where the shaft

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is flexing the wrong direction that we had to do

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with the camera lenses at that time. There's a distortion

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of rolling shutter and that sort of thing. It's a

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that those are not accurate and people are still confused

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by that to this day. But that actually wasn't happening.

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It was actually the shaft was actually flexing the other

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direction because of the camera, so it would be flexing back,

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not forward. You couldn't hit the ball of the shaft.

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But history it was so that book's still there are

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still confuses people to this day, and I still get

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questions on that on the site. But anyway, so yeah,

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I really realized that that was one of the things

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that was causing the ball to sound differently because when

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the energy is held in the shaft and you've got

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a pre stressed club shaft coming into impact, that's stored energy.

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In other words, what happens is the club head it

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doesn't decelerate as much from the forces of impact as

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it would if the shaft has already lost it. It's

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stored energy and it's just straight and now it's just

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a momentum strike. It's the momentum of the clubhead, of

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the weight of the clubhead and that's how most people

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play golf, but there's a different way of doing it

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that these great strikers have figured out, and that's how

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to hold shaffles all the way to impact. And that's

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basically the core direction that the advanced ball striking moves

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the students towards. We show the students how to do that,

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and it's a little bit of work.

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Speaker 1: But once you yeah, it sounds like it's a lot

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of work.

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Speaker 3: Well, it depends. It depends on the player if it's

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already a good player.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, like Brad Hughes, you know, came to

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me and we had known each other from playing on

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the tour, but he'd come across some of my thoughts

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on the game on a website that I'd been involved with,

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and he contacted me and just said, you know, I

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want to come up and visit you. And so we

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just he came up here and we spent a week

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together and it didn't really take long for him to

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get him back to striking the ball well again because

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he had a lot of the the core things there.

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We just need to get as muscle strength back up

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because the lightweight gear that everybody's playing, it's it's like

246
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swing cancer. It slowly kills your swing over time because

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you lose the muscle tone. It's just like going to

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the gym. If you in the preciminage, guys were swinging

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you know, fourteen, fifteen, even sixteen ounce drivers, and now

250
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everybody's got a ten eleven ounce driver. So right away,

251
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oh wow, I hit this really far. It's light and

252
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it has a big head, and I don't have to

253
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worry about, you know, missing the ball again. Swing as

254
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hard as I want at it, and I get all

255
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this speed. I can hit it a mile. But over time,

256
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your muscles lose a little bit of their tone because

257
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you're not swinging a heavier club. So it's just like

258
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going to the gym and working out, and then you

259
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don't work out for a year, Well you don't. All

260
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of a sudden you're not as strong as you were,

261
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so you need to the heavier gear. People don't like

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it at first, like, oh it's too heavy, it's shafts

263
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are too stiff. But if you practice with it and

264
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train with it, it's just like going to the gym.

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You get stronger. And if you look at the great

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ball strikers, they're all pretty strong, like certainly in the forums,

267
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and you see these big forearms, and it's putting forearm rotation,

268
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adding that into the equation in a big way actively,

269
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so you're actively striking it with forearm rotation. I mean,

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Hogan talked about this and five lessons and briefly, but

271
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it's there. But why why do all these great strikers

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have big forearms if it wasn't necessary, you know, if

273
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it's just a passive throw of the hands and the

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impact like you know most people are teaching, then you

275
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wouldn't see that. But I don't think it's a coincidence

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that you see all these you know Snead and Hogan

277
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and Nelson and George Knudsen and you know Moe and Peterson,

278
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you know Norman, like all these guys had you know, guns,

279
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Tom Watson, right, I mean you had strong forearms, you know,

280
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Nicholas Palmer, you know where do I stop? Right?

281
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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Trevino even right. You don't see too many people with thin,

283
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little weak forearms being great ball strikers.

284
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Speaker 1: Today. You're seeing guys in phenomenal golf shape or just

285
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phenomenal shape. Yeah, Tiger's led the way on that. It

286
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seems like he's a completely different body than the old

287
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school players.

288
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Speaker 3: Yeah, but then you know you have a guy like Cabrera, right,

289
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just one of the Masters. There's a guy, doesn't you know,

290
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It doesn't look like he walked out of the fitness van. Yeah,

291
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so there's something else going on there. And to be honestly,

292
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that's the first time, you know, in the last well

293
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since I started following golf a little bit again, that's

294
00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:39,919
the first time I've seen a guy really hit it

295
00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:44,960
good coming down the stretch hmm, you know, and hitting

296
00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:48,480
it straight and hitting it stiff and look like he

297
00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:51,480
really had control over it. I mean, this year's Masters,

298
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that was really impressive of what Cabrera did, I thought,

299
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But he looks like a guy that just walked out

300
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of the sixties. Like, yeah, I feel like I can

301
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hand him. I could hand him a set of per

302
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,960
Simmon and little blades and he just go and wipe

303
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,879
everybody out. I mean, I think he'd win a lot

304
00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:08,279
more if it was if golf was played back in

305
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the old way.

306
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Speaker 1: You you come off kind of like a throwback you.

307
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I mean, we were talking about sound recording a little

308
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while ago before we started this interview, and you're talking

309
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about tubes and listening to vinyl, and now you're talking

310
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about per Simmons and you're not that old of a guy.

311
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,960
I mean, you're much longer than I am. But you

312
00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:33,919
seem to have this love of the way it used

313
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to be.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's what I have is a love for quality.

315
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Speaker 1: Okay.

316
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Speaker 3: So if quality is better now than I love that.

317
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,559
I mean I'm not a throwback. I just like quality.

318
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I mean, we talked a little bit about music, but

319
00:15:47,759 --> 00:15:50,519
you know, I think anyone that knows music understands the

320
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,200
vinyl records sound better than digital recording. I mean, you

321
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can go on and on about that. That's a whole

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other com So is.

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Speaker 1: The quality of golf, And that's a multiple question. Is

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00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,799
quality of golf or is it quality of golf equipment?

325
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,639
Or is it quality of golflers.

326
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 3: The quality of ball striking, I would say, okay, And

327
00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:14,320
here's how you tell. Like, if you take a modern player, Well,

328
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,480
you can't dig these guys out of the grave and

329
00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:18,559
see how they would do with the modern gear. That's

330
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,840
not possible. But you can hand the modern players the

331
00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:25,360
old gear and see how they would do, and I

332
00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:27,840
would say that they don't do nearly as well as

333
00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:30,720
the players in the past, because it's a different game

334
00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:35,279
because it's a different equipment. So if you hand a

335
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,600
modern player a set of Persimmon woods and a blot

336
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,080
of golf ball that spins at a much higher rate,

337
00:16:43,159 --> 00:16:46,240
so it's much more difficult, difficult to control. If you're

338
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:52,279
not playing well, it's easier to access tight pin placements

339
00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:54,120
and that sort of thing. If you're really good and

340
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,120
you can control the spin of the ball, you can

341
00:16:56,159 --> 00:16:58,000
hit it into the green and spin it left or

342
00:16:58,039 --> 00:16:59,759
spin it right, and a lot of this has been

343
00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:03,519
a lot as the shot making being able to curve

344
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,759
the ball where the golf ball holds its curvature all

345
00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,160
the way into the green. So basically what's happening now

346
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,200
is the ball goes up, it curves to the apex

347
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,319
and falls straight down, and you don't have the ball

348
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,119
curving nearly as much as in the Blotta age. So

349
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,160
I would say that the players now are not as

350
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,079
good because every time I've handed you know, a young

351
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,759
player of per Simons, say try and hit this, they

352
00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:32,720
can't even hit it at all. I mean, a fellow

353
00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:36,079
teammate of mine recently who is a you know in

354
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,880
the PGA up here and he came out to watch

355
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,000
a friend of mine play. We're playing Per Simmons, and

356
00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,839
we handed him a personmon driver to hit a shot,

357
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,240
and he hit it about two hundred and ten yards.

358
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,079
I mean, he just couldn't hit it at all. But

359
00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:54,680
with a modern driver that's ten ounces or eleven ounces

360
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,759
and it's forty six inches long and has a giant

361
00:17:58,319 --> 00:18:01,440
titanium head on it, can just sort of slap at

362
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,200
it with his hands and get one hundred and five

363
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,359
miles an hour a club hit speed, knock the thing

364
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,200
out there two hundred and eighty yards.

365
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 1: And you don't like this.

366
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,319
Speaker 3: But with a persimmon, no, I don't like this because

367
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,160
it's dumbing down the game. In other words, if you're

368
00:18:16,319 --> 00:18:19,640
if you're a great ball striker, then you should be

369
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,440
able to do it the old way. You should be

370
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,799
able to do it that way. And now if you

371
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,160
if you take the modern gear and add that into it,

372
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,000
then then that's a whole nother argument. But I want

373
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,440
to see that a guy can still do it the

374
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,319
old way. He's not using it as a crutch or

375
00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:36,599
as a handicap. When you watch, you know, some of

376
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,519
the old footage. I mean some of those Shells matches

377
00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:42,559
are great to watch because you can see what those

378
00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:46,599
guys were doing back then. And you know, there's a

379
00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:48,799
lot of really impressive stuff. I mean, people have seen

380
00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:50,880
the Hogan and Sneed match. Of course, that's great stuff.

381
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,400
I mean, you know, but the thing that's been eliminated

382
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,960
from the game has been the long iron play. You know,

383
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,759
having to hit long irons, and that's how golf courses

384
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,640
were designed, right, So the great architects designed these courses

385
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,519
and they said, okay, we're going to have we're going

386
00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:12,920
to have there's ten par fours on a golf course, right,

387
00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:17,079
typically par seventy two, you know, so the par fours

388
00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:20,200
of the heart of the golf course. So the golf

389
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,240
course is designed to have typically three long par fours

390
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,799
meaning two three and four iron for approach shot, okay,

391
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,960
and then they're going to have four mid range five

392
00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:32,440
six and seven irons for approach shot, and then three

393
00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:36,440
short par fours eight nine oer wedge. So the reason

394
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,759
that they do that is to test the skill set

395
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,839
of the player, of the professional player, the top amateur

396
00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:46,559
player on a professional championship course, the player has to

397
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,920
show their ability to play long irons, mid irons and

398
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:51,720
short irons.

399
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,079
Speaker 1: That's golf, but today it's driver wedge. Well on the.

400
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 3: Tour, yes, of course. You know what's happening now is

401
00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:05,880
the players are not being properly tested, so they're hitting

402
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,920
I'm seeing guys hit mid irons into.

403
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 1: Par fives right crazy.

404
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 3: So what are they doing on par fours? Well, even

405
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,319
the longest par fours they're hitting. I mean, guys are

406
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,079
still hitting short irons and even the longest par fours

407
00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:25,400
at times a lot of mid irons. But to me,

408
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,640
the great thing about the great ball strikers of the

409
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,279
past was their ability to play two irons, three irons,

410
00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:34,599
one iron from the fairway into a par four and

411
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:36,359
be able to shape a ball into the green and

412
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,920
hold it on a green that was designed to accept

413
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,799
that kind of a shot. And when I look at

414
00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:46,920
the Masters, which we just saw recently here, and if

415
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,440
you look at the AT's say ten and eleven, those

416
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,480
are you know the famous holes, Well those were those

417
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,480
are long par fours that were meant to accept long

418
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:57,799
iron shots, which means a lower trajectory. So in the

419
00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,279
old days, the guys were kind of bumping them into

420
00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:01,920
that green like they'd hid into the front part of

421
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,720
the green. They'd skip, But you didn't see a guy

422
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:05,960
backing the ball up on the green. I mean it

423
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,559
would it would. It would come in and it would

424
00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:10,519
land and then it would kick forward. And you were

425
00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:13,680
coming into those holes with a lower trajectory shot. Now

426
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,960
I'm seeing guys coming in with eight irons that are

427
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,279
just throwing it at the flag and stopping the ball

428
00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:22,000
on the green, you know, backing them up on the green.

429
00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:25,160
That's not how the hole was designed. I mean, Jones

430
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,519
and McKenzie would be spinning in their graves if they

431
00:21:28,599 --> 00:21:30,400
knew that that was going on. They would not be

432
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,359
happy about that. And it's disrespectful to the game. Wow,

433
00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:36,880
it's disrespectful to the game. It's disrespectful to the history

434
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,279
of the game. And what it does is it makes

435
00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,799
the It trivializes the efforts of the great players of

436
00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:47,559
the past, you know, and they look back and they say, oh,

437
00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:51,359
the old footage or whatever. But the other thing about

438
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,559
the masters is those greens were never meant to be

439
00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:57,400
that that fast either. I don't think could the undulating

440
00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:00,799
of the slope, undulations of the slope the greens. If

441
00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:02,799
you go back and look at the old footage they

442
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:06,599
they were putting like a public course of slow greens

443
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,839
or something, and that's how it was designed really to

444
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,200
play that way. So it's kind of turned into something else.

445
00:22:13,319 --> 00:22:17,079
But what happens when you do that, is it when

446
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,440
you change the game, you change the rules or the

447
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,640
equipment rules or their requirements for equipment. Then the past

448
00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:28,039
is now no longer relevant. Really, it just becomes, you know,

449
00:22:28,839 --> 00:22:33,000
a novelty of the past. And I think that's sad.

450
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,720
You know, Geen Saracen knocked his famous forward in from

451
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,200
two hundred and thirty four yards or some about two

452
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,160
hundred and thirty yards forward, and up until maybe the

453
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,519
end of the eighties, guys were still hitting forwards or

454
00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:53,039
those that length of a shot into say the fifteenth

455
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:57,720
that Augusta. But now I'm seeing guys hitting mid irons

456
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,440
in there, right, you know? So that too that he

457
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,599
made knocking it in the cup with a forwood. I mean,

458
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,799
that's he did that in the thirties.

459
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: In watching the Masters, the fourteen year old kid who

460
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,480
doesn't have a ton of power but kind of hung

461
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:20,839
on there. Did you is it? Did you?

462
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: I'm angry about it?

463
00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:28,319
Speaker 1: Tell me? Oh, I love this well.

464
00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:31,559
Speaker 3: I mean a fourteen year old kid. I mean you

465
00:23:31,599 --> 00:23:33,680
have to remember three years ago he was eleven, right.

466
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,400
I mean, golf traditionally has been a game that takes

467
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:41,599
years and years to learn how to play. And when

468
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,440
you dumb the game down with a giant headed driver

469
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,279
that you know, is like a frying pan or a

470
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,400
toaster on a stick, so there's no there's no precision

471
00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,279
needed to strike an insert on a per simon, for instance.

472
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,200
The game's been dumbed down to the point to we're

473
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,240
a fourteen year old that just swings hard at it

474
00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:05,440
can hit the ball out there far enough on the

475
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,559
tour now to just kind of contend or whatever.

476
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,839
Speaker 1: So you're saying, if I can interpret this, that today's

477
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:15,119
equipment is removing a lot of the skill that is

478
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,720
required for competitive golf.

479
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,279
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely it is, and dumbing it down and making

480
00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:25,440
it easier doesn't make the game better. It's just like

481
00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:28,440
playing chess or playing checkers. You know, you're playing on

482
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,640
the same board, but one has chess pieces that have

483
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,319
a very sophisticated game, a very old traditional game. I

484
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,880
think the one change they made was the castling move,

485
00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:40,519
Like back in the late eighteen hundreds or something, and

486
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:42,680
that was very controversial at the time, but that was like,

487
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:46,480
that was it. But that game is still being played

488
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,359
the same. So if you go to checkers, then that's

489
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,920
a different you know, it's just kind of a dumbed

490
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,599
down version of a chest in a way, like you

491
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,720
just you know, you have black and red checkers right

492
00:24:58,759 --> 00:25:01,200
that skip over each other, So you know, it's it's

493
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,799
the dumbing the game down. And that's what the mentality

494
00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:08,039
has been over the last twenty years. Like I think

495
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:10,680
these the people that are running the game or haters,

496
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,480
they hate golf, they're angry.

497
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: It's today running the game that you're talking about, the us.

498
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:19,279
Speaker 3: USGA, the RNA, the equipment companies, the people that are

499
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:22,799
that are in control of what happens out there at

500
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,359
the club level, at the professional level, these are people

501
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,240
that are hackers. They hate golf. It's too difficult for them,

502
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,839
and the idea that inventing a club where they can

503
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,880
propel the ball farther it's very selfish. They're thinking for

504
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,480
themselves and they're not thinking about the implications of what's

505
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:43,960
happening at the professional level. Now, if you hand these

506
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,279
same clubs to the pros that's great for amateurs to

507
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:50,000
be able to hit the ball next to forty yard,

508
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,680
it's fine. I have no problem with that. At the

509
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,319
club level, people can do what they want. If they

510
00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:56,119
want to ride around on tricycles, that's fine, okay, But

511
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,880
I don't want to see the crafts. Yeah, I don't

512
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,240
want to see tricycle racing. At the pro level. You know,

513
00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:03,400
you got to be on two wheels, you know, go

514
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:05,799
back to persimmon and blades, get back on two wheels again.

515
00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:08,119
You know, let's see some skill. You know, everybody's got

516
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,400
these crutches, they got this extra you know, long putters

517
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,720
and all this stuff going on cavity backs, all this

518
00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:18,759
stuff to a ball that flies ten percent farther than

519
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,079
maybe fifteen percent, far farther than it used to. So

520
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,599
the classic sixty eight hundred yard course has to be

521
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,640
close to eight thousand yards, So the courses aren't long

522
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,279
enough and doesn't really make sense to have eight thousand

523
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:32,160
yard golf courses. I mean, I don't think so.

524
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't think no, because well, the eight thousand yard

525
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,599
golf courses are playing into their hand. I mean, these

526
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,480
guys are hitting farther and farther so they make the

527
00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:42,759
courses longer to make it look good on television. I

528
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,160
get a sense that you may be an advocate for bifurcation.

529
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah. And because the USGA is not going to change.

530
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,599
I mean they're like a it's like an ocean liner

531
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,200
out there. That's okay, we need you to make a

532
00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:00,960
U turn. It's like it's going to take a long time.

533
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:03,319
You know, it's not there. They're trying to the grooves thing.

534
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,240
I mean, that was silly.

535
00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: You know. It's like the USGA is hiding behind you know,

536
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:10,640
the protect the integrity of the game, but yet the game.

537
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:13,200
You know, there are two different things going on. We

538
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:15,920
got the tour and we've got the rest of us right,

539
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:22,319
and it's like the USGA. I would hope, in trying

540
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,480
to grow the game is going to make it more

541
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,480
enjoyable for the rest of us. Or should everything be

542
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:34,759
focused around the elite scratch players And when ninety plus

543
00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:38,920
percent of the people don't even break one hundred, what

544
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:43,119
should we do about those rules? And who's it for?

545
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Should we let those people?

546
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,039
Speaker 3: I think at the club level, I mean I have

547
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,759
no problem with the frying pan drivers and all that

548
00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:52,440
people want to hit that stuff. I mean, at the

549
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,000
club level, I don't think it should be banned, long putters, whatever,

550
00:27:55,079 --> 00:27:56,960
it's a whatever they want to do. But at the

551
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,599
pro lem because I'm a professional played on the tour

552
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,359
speaking from that perspective, and the thing is that most

553
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,559
people they watched the pros because they derive inspiration from

554
00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:09,960
that from the professionals. They watch professional they go, wow,

555
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,640
that's really great. I want to be like that, or

556
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,319
they relate to this player or that player. You know,

557
00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:16,680
in the era that I played, you had you know,

558
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,079
Greg Norman. They could drive a person in three hundred yards,

559
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:20,960
and then you had Corey Paven they could drive a

560
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,599
person in about two hundred and twenty five yards. But

561
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,279
yet Corey Paven could just maneuver the ball around the

562
00:28:27,319 --> 00:28:29,880
golf course on a good a good week and beat

563
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,000
a guy like Greg Norman, which is really impressive. And see,

564
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,319
we don't have that kind of diversity anymore. Maybe there

565
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,200
might be a short hitter that can do well on

566
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:42,160
a couple courses, you know, but for the most part,

567
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,480
the tour doesn't play tight golf courses anymore. And in

568
00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:50,000
the US Open, they don't really have US Open roff anymore.

569
00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:52,400
I mean I played in you know, a few USGA

570
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,519
events where the rough was like over your ankles and

571
00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:56,240
if you hit it, if you hit it into the rough,

572
00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:59,079
you just wedged out basically, and it was it was

573
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:02,160
about a half a shot penalty. And you know, when

574
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:04,079
Rory won the US Open, I mean, that was great

575
00:29:04,079 --> 00:29:05,720
golf that he played, sure, but there was just a

576
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:08,880
typical PGA Tour event set up. You know, there was

577
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,720
no rough to spe a little bit of rough, but

578
00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:14,200
I was watching him spin the ball back from the rough,

579
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:16,759
and we know they say that the course was wet

580
00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:18,000
and you know, and then they had a lot of

581
00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:21,599
rain and this sort of thing. But the course definitely

582
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:24,240
what they should have done is grown the rough really long,

583
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:26,039
and they can always cut it right. They can always

584
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:29,559
cut it back if they need to. But to me,

585
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,960
that was a disgrace to see seventeen under as the

586
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,559
US Open record, because eight under par was the record

587
00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:38,480
for what how many thirty years or Hogan and Nicholas

588
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,839
and Hogan set the record, then Nicholas came along and

589
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,200
then Tiger, you know, played some of the greatest golf

590
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,200
ever right at Pebble Beach and then broke the records

591
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,200
at twelve under. And now you have a guy that

592
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,279
comes along, she's seventeen under. But the course wasn't set

593
00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:51,279
up like a US Open. It's not fair. If you

594
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:53,599
look at the footage from when Hogan wanted Olympic Club,

595
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,440
when he won Olympic Club, but when he lost at

596
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,720
Olympic Club, I would say, yeah, but he you know

597
00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:02,559
that the rough was like almost to his knees. I mean,

598
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,559
he's like pitching out with a wedge on eighteen. He

599
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:06,440
hooked it in the left rough, foot slipped or whatever,

600
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,920
and you hit in the left rough. And if you

601
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,079
look at the photos of that, I mean that stuff's like,

602
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:12,400
you know, way up over his ankles, right right, you

603
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,960
know you see that bushes. Yeah, you don't see that anymore.

604
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,880
So the tour and the US g and all, they

605
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,240
want the guys to shoot low. They want the scores

606
00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:23,160
to be low. They think, you know, people are impressed

607
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,319
by that, But I'm impressed by seeing the golf course.

608
00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:30,279
Like I like to stick up for the course itself,

609
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,359
you know, And I want to stick up for the golfer,

610
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:36,640
stick up for the course itself, and and I like

611
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,359
to stick up for the ball strikers, the guys that

612
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,359
can hit it straight. So how can you be if

613
00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:41,920
you're a straight hitter of the golf, Well, how can

614
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,319
you be rewarded if there's no penalty for guys that

615
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,799
hit a crookeet right?

616
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,079
Speaker 1: Well, for I need to uh wrap this up for

617
00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:52,559
for this episode. Could you stick around because I want

618
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:55,359
to continue because you know the reason you and I

619
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,000
are doing this is I got an email from Golf

620
00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:02,039
Smarter listener John Pappus and he said that you and

621
00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:06,359
your Aussie partner Bradley Hughes are both big on learning

622
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,640
the swing from impact backwards and I want to spend

623
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,799
a lot of time talking about that, what that means

624
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,039
and how we can institute that in our lives, how

625
00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:19,680
you approach it. Also, he says you have very unique

626
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,680
perspective on today's light equipment and huge driver heads, which

627
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,319
we've touched on. Yeah, and then and again he says

628
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:30,880
from two thousand that he says that you've said that

629
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,000
from two thousand onward that the pro swings who deteriorated

630
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,920
number of fairways hit has gotten worse and lighter equipment

631
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,160
is hurt.

632
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: So they handed Brent Sedeker, Per Simmon and Blades. Okay,

633
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,240
he's top three in the world.

634
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: Now.

635
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: A few years ago, handed per Simon and Blade sent

636
00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:50,039
him out to Hilton and he shot eighty So what

637
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:52,119
does that say. It says something. I mean, yeah, I mean,

638
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,319
had he worked with them a little bit, obviously would

639
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,680
shoot eighty. He might shoot seventy two or three. But

640
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,119
I don't think he's just going to necessarily go out

641
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:00,799
there and shoot sixty six. That's what those things.

642
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: There's a difference, all right, So we can pursue this

643
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,440
further on the next episode. You stick around, Thank you.

644
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,599
I appreciate that, and I appreciate you coming out.

645
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.