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<v Speaker 1>About the man who was just arrested for attempted murder

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<v Speaker 1>for the shooting on two two five in Denver. Apparently

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<v Speaker 1>the gentleman who had already been deported three times. He

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty, when he was arrested for child sex

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<v Speaker 1>assault charges. I said, lodged a detainer on him. The

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<v Speaker 1>Denver Justice Center declined to honor the detainer and released

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<v Speaker 1>him into the community instead. Ice caught him later and

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<v Speaker 1>deported him after that. But we know that at some

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<v Speaker 1>point he walked back across the southern border and now

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<v Speaker 1>has perhaps murdered someone. The guy still in the hospital

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<v Speaker 1>fighting for his life. So I just wanted to get

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<v Speaker 1>that update. Another example of the things Democrats fight for

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<v Speaker 1>in Colorado. Joining me now from the fourth Judicial District

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<v Speaker 1>is DA Michael Allen, who reached out to me after

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation with former police chief Paul Pasin about releasing

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<v Speaker 1>criminals and seeing violent crime rise. Although DA Michael Allen,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure there's no connection at all between those two things,

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<v Speaker 1>but then you sent an email and said, man, we're

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<v Speaker 1>not even talking about what the lack of qualified immunity

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<v Speaker 1>for police officers is doing. So welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>To have that conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thanks a lot, Mandy for having me on

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<v Speaker 2>and having a chance to discuss this. I thought the

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<v Speaker 2>conversation you had with Paul Paysen, I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>a Tuesday or Wednesday. I thought it was really good.

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<v Speaker 2>I happened to catch a big chunk of it. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things that I think people have forgotten

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<v Speaker 2>about is that Senate Bill twenty dash two seventeen, which

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<v Speaker 2>was called Police Accountability. I think they had some other

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<v Speaker 2>fancier name for it to make it sound like it

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<v Speaker 2>was a good thing, but it has turned out to

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<v Speaker 2>be a bad thing, and it really it was designed

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<v Speaker 2>to remove qualified immunity protections from police officers who are

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<v Speaker 2>out in the field making tough decisions every day, fighting

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<v Speaker 2>crime and that kind of thing, and it really had

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<v Speaker 2>a detrimental impact on law enforcement agencies around Colorado.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about what their qualified immunity did first,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think a lot of people don't understand. They

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<v Speaker 1>do know, like people understand, you can't sue government, right

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<v Speaker 1>because government has always assumed to act in our best

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<v Speaker 1>interest even when they're clearly not. So I can't sue

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<v Speaker 1>government because they have what's called qualified immunity, which means

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<v Speaker 1>they don't get sued because they're expected to do the

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<v Speaker 1>right thing. For US cops had the same kinds of protections.

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<v Speaker 1>What changed in that crime bill?

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<v Speaker 2>So basically what changes It stripped that qualified immunity from

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<v Speaker 2>police officers. As I said, they're making really tough decisions

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<v Speaker 2>out in the field in real time and reacting to

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<v Speaker 2>dynamic situations that are really dictated by a criminal behavior,

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<v Speaker 2>and by removing qualified immunity, it just puts them personally

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<v Speaker 2>liable for any decisions they made, which is a new

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<v Speaker 2>thing in Colorado that had never been taken away before. Legislators,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, have immunity for the bills that they've

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<v Speaker 2>passed because they're also weighing really tough things and they

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<v Speaker 2>have to say some things maybe that they wouldn't say otherwise,

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<v Speaker 2>or do things they wouldn't do otherwise.

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<v Speaker 3>And so they're also immune from lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't see legislators getting sued for bad bills, even

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<v Speaker 2>though maybe we should.

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<v Speaker 1>Take that way, Amen, I would be in favor of that.

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<v Speaker 1>So how has this affected the actual policing? What are

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<v Speaker 1>the real world impacts of this qualified immunity situation?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there was a couple of real world impacts.

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<v Speaker 2>I think one you can't discount the idea that this

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<v Speaker 2>had a psychological impact on law enforcement. This was legislation

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<v Speaker 2>designed to be very punitive towards law enforcement officers all

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<v Speaker 2>over the state of Colorado.

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<v Speaker 3>So just from a psychological standpoint, when.

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<v Speaker 2>The tough work you're doing isn't being appreciated by those

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<v Speaker 2>passing laws, it makes it tough to do the job,

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<v Speaker 2>makes it tough to wake up every morning, put on

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<v Speaker 2>the uniform and go out and fight crime. And then

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<v Speaker 2>on a separate, more real world basis, you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>really affected recruiting and retention, and so we saw people

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<v Speaker 2>that were close to retirement age they might retire early

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, get out as soon as they possibly can,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the recruiting effort.

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<v Speaker 3>Was really difficult. And so law enforcement has.

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<v Speaker 2>Had a real fight really since that bill was passed

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<v Speaker 2>to recruit and properly fully staff their police departments. So

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<v Speaker 2>down here in Colorado Springs, we've got the second biggest

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<v Speaker 2>city in the state of Colorado, and our police department

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<v Speaker 2>is severely understaffed and it struggles all the time to

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<v Speaker 2>get even close to something that on what we actually

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<v Speaker 2>need down here, and it's the same all over the state.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to share with you an email from a

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<v Speaker 1>former law enforcement officer here in Colorado who has since

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<v Speaker 1>left the state, and he said, I have so much

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<v Speaker 1>to say on this. First, it's not really the pay

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<v Speaker 1>up to twenty five K, because that was always the case.

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<v Speaker 1>When you were found to be acting outside the color

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<v Speaker 1>of authority, you can be held liable and no immunity applies.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most chilling parts of the reforms was

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<v Speaker 1>the form you have to fill out after every contact.

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<v Speaker 1>It consists of why contact, race, outcome, forced use, and

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<v Speaker 1>who initiated the contact. An extra fifteen minutes if there's

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<v Speaker 1>only one person in the contact, add more time for

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<v Speaker 1>more people. It is one of the huge reasons why

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<v Speaker 1>cops don't do traffic stops. And this may shock you.

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<v Speaker 1>When it came out, it was so gray as to

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<v Speaker 1>was what it was used for and when you needed

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<v Speaker 1>to fill it out. According to the Democrat pass law,

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<v Speaker 1>just another pain in the ass and a tool which

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<v Speaker 1>can selectively be used to show racism depending on how

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<v Speaker 1>you pull the data. So there's I think for people

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<v Speaker 1>who are not in law enforcement and generally speaking, I

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<v Speaker 1>hate it when legislators legislate anything that they don't know

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<v Speaker 1>anything about. And let's be real, they don't know anything

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<v Speaker 1>about most stuff, right, They just don't. They have their

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<v Speaker 1>very individual, siloed views. What I've always found fascinating, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>is when you see news stories where you have a

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<v Speaker 1>community activist who then goes through the point and shoot

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<v Speaker 1>training that the cops have to go through, the split

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<v Speaker 1>second training, and they come out on the other side

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<v Speaker 1>and go, holy crap, that was a lot different than

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<v Speaker 1>I thought.

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<v Speaker 3>What was going on?

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<v Speaker 1>What can we do in Colorado to either help legislators

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<v Speaker 1>or help regular people understand these life and death decisions

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<v Speaker 1>that are made instantaneously every single day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think if we can ever figure that out,

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<v Speaker 3>we'd be onto something. It's a tough thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Voters, unfortunately, are so distracted by so many different things,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that's ultimately what it comes down to,

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<v Speaker 2>is that elections do have consequences. When we're allowing people

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<v Speaker 2>to get elected into the state legislature that.

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<v Speaker 3>Have maybe an acts to grind against law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the thing that we get and we shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>surprised when we get the government we deserve.

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<v Speaker 3>When we're so distracted as a community.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do we do with this bill and how

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<v Speaker 1>would that make an impact? I don't see this legislature

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<v Speaker 1>made up controlled by Democrats. This is a zero percent

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<v Speaker 1>chance they're going to roll back this qualified immunity change.

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<v Speaker 1>So what could we do? What could be possible?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think you asked Paul this the other day

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<v Speaker 2>on the radio too, about if he could undo one

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<v Speaker 2>legislative change over the last several years with the criminal

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<v Speaker 2>justice reform, what.

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<v Speaker 3>Would that be?

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is, there's been so many that are so

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<v Speaker 2>detrimental to public safety that it's hard to pick just one.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the Senate built two seventeen from twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 2>would be a really good one to just completely undo.

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<v Speaker 2>It's led to less police on the streets and that

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<v Speaker 2>means fewer crimes being solved. And then as you all

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about on Tuesday, is more repeat offenders. They're

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<v Speaker 2>just down on the street and they have a proclivity

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<v Speaker 2>to commit crime and they're doing that because they can.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm want to ask you another question that isn't directly

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<v Speaker 1>related to the qualified immunity story, but we've just had

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<v Speaker 1>a story where we have a guy who's been arrested

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<v Speaker 1>for attempted murder after allegedly shooting someone on two two five,

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<v Speaker 1>And he is an illegal immigrant from Honduras. He was

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<v Speaker 1>deported three times, and I don't even know how the

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<v Speaker 1>Aurora ped was able to loop in Homeland Security to

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<v Speaker 1>get this guy off the streets finally, But we're in

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<v Speaker 1>a state where Democrats are increasingly protecting people like this.

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<v Speaker 1>This is what's going on. How has the banning of

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<v Speaker 1>any cooperation between your office or any law enforcement agency

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<v Speaker 1>and ICE affected you in the fourth Judicial District?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's I can actually point to even

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<v Speaker 2>across the whole state of Colorado law enforcement. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>our local law enforcement agencies, whether it's a sheriff's office

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<v Speaker 2>or a police department, they're really nervous about working with

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<v Speaker 2>ICE on anything or any federal agency for that matter,

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<v Speaker 2>that might have some tangential connection to immigration. So if

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<v Speaker 2>we have a drug distribution investigation and it is involving

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<v Speaker 2>cartel activity, that means somehow that the federal government is

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<v Speaker 2>involved in investigating these people because it's a transnational drug

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<v Speaker 2>distribution organization, which means that immigration potentially is at play

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<v Speaker 2>in any sort of convictions.

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<v Speaker 3>That you might get in the case like that, And

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<v Speaker 3>I've had.

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<v Speaker 2>Police officers locally tell me that they're nervous about working

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<v Speaker 2>on those types of cases because we've had our attorney

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<v Speaker 2>general suing law enforcement officers across the state of Colorado.

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<v Speaker 3>We've obviously got the law that says you're not.

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<v Speaker 2>Allowed to do that, although there is a caveat in

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<v Speaker 2>that law that says if you are working on an

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<v Speaker 2>active criminal investigation, you can still cooperate on that criminal investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you've got an attorney general that's actively going

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<v Speaker 2>after people, it makes them nervous about working on these cases.

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<v Speaker 1>In a general sense, my frustration with this entire thing

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<v Speaker 1>is that imagine, just imagine if Colorado said to the

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<v Speaker 1>federal government, we'd love your help in getting these people

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<v Speaker 1>that are violent criminals, like this guy from Honduras out

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<v Speaker 1>of our state. We'd love to cooperate with you to

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<v Speaker 1>get these violent criminals who already have a deportation order,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe been deported three more times. We'd love to work

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<v Speaker 1>with you. At least from that perspective, a collaboration could

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<v Speaker 1>actually get something done. A collaboration could actually get this guy,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe permanently out of the country, although I have no

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<v Speaker 1>reason to think he won't just come back because there's

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<v Speaker 1>no penalty to be paid, right if you just keep

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<v Speaker 1>coming back, Apparently all they do is keep sending you

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<v Speaker 1>out again. I just it's insane. How is there any

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<v Speaker 1>way for your office to and you just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>explained how to navigate this whole thing, But I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>what what I want, and I'm never going to get it,

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<v Speaker 1>is for everyone outside state government to just say we're

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<v Speaker 1>not following this bad law. It's a bad law and

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<v Speaker 1>we're not following it. I realize that won't happen, but

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<v Speaker 1>it seems to me we have ample ammunition rhetorical to

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<v Speaker 1>make the case that we are actually harming Colorado and

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<v Speaker 1>citizens by not doing that. So I mean, can you

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<v Speaker 1>make that argument in any compelling way to anyone who

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<v Speaker 1>will listen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's a hard thing to actually put

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<v Speaker 2>into practice, because you know, as an executive branch member

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<v Speaker 2>that's where I am as a prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 3>The police are executive branch. We take a note to support.

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<v Speaker 2>The constitution of the State of Colorado, the laws of

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<v Speaker 2>the State of Colorado. It's hard to start picking and

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<v Speaker 2>choosing and you know, you could get a scenario potentially

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<v Speaker 2>where maybe a far left leaning person gets elected to

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<v Speaker 2>a position like this and they start ignoring other laws

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<v Speaker 2>that we think are important on violent crime, for instance. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a slippery slope to go down. The

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<v Speaker 2>I think for me, the better avenue is bring attention

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<v Speaker 2>to it, and let's try to get some advances in

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<v Speaker 2>the legislature so we can get more seats and maybe

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<v Speaker 2>stop some of this, and then as we build momentum,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe start undoing.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of the nonsense.

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<v Speaker 2>D A.

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Allen from the fourth Judicial District, Thanks so much

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<v Speaker 1>for your time today, Mike. I really appreciate it. Thank you,

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<v Speaker 1>Mandy all Right, that is good information.