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<v Speaker 1>We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion

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<v Speaker 1>Fest Tell Quitt's walk back to another edition of the

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<v Speaker 1>Pso I am the team, You're telt Tom Fitzgerald, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here with the low one, your tee lot. Lorenzo

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<v Speaker 1>has my lovely husband. I don't even know people can

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<v Speaker 1>understand the words that come out of my mouth anymore

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<v Speaker 1>when I do the intro, but they love it. And

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<v Speaker 1>I know we've mentioned this before, but every time we've

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<v Speaker 1>met someone a listener in the real world, they always

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<v Speaker 1>throw the lovely husband line back, which is terrible cute.

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<v Speaker 1>And Lorenzo is my lovely husband.

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<v Speaker 2>I am a lovely husband.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So we have ground to cover today, and once

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<v Speaker 1>again I need to apologize this podcast got pushed back.

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<v Speaker 1>We're doing it a little bit later in the week

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<v Speaker 1>than we wanted to, and we're tackling some topics that

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<v Speaker 1>are not as fresh as we might have liked for

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast. We're late in getting to someone, one of

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<v Speaker 1>which is we finally got to see The Odyssey. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have much to discuss about that today. But

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<v Speaker 1>I also wanted to address the comments that we got

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<v Speaker 1>on our twentieth anniversary post last week. But let me

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<v Speaker 1>just explain why we're so far behind on everything right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Is we the dogate our homework. I know I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm giving an excuse, but you know, I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>trying to let people in. We're very I try and

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<v Speaker 1>let people into, like what it's like to publish, what

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<v Speaker 1>it's like to be independent media when it's just the

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<v Speaker 1>two of us. So we went to Ireland and Scotland

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<v Speaker 1>earlier in the month, as you may have noticed because

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about it on our podcast, and then the

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<v Speaker 1>timing wasn't great, but as soon as we got back

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<v Speaker 1>from Europe, we went out to visit our friends Mark

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<v Speaker 1>and Jim and our friend David on Fire Island, and

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<v Speaker 1>in retrospect, I would not have scheduled all of those

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<v Speaker 1>trips back to back like that because I'm freaking exhausted.

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<v Speaker 1>But and it pushed everything back. We didn't get to

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<v Speaker 1>the Odyssey, we didn't get to talk to you about

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<v Speaker 1>your comments on our post last week, so we're very late.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know Lorenzo absolutely adores Fire Island.

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<v Speaker 2>Right at first, we almost thought about not going again.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't go last year because we had to go

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<v Speaker 2>to Texas and promote our book, which we loved. So

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't go to Fire Island last year, and because

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<v Speaker 2>we had also travel last year, so this year I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, no, we have to go. I miss my friends.

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<v Speaker 2>And the only time we could all get together was

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<v Speaker 2>right after our trip to Europe, so because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we all we have friends from all over the country

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<v Speaker 2>and then we get together there and spend you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a few days, so that only worked after our trip.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was like, whoa, we have to go. And

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<v Speaker 2>I absolutely love the island. The island is phenomenal. The

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<v Speaker 2>island can be whatever you want. I mean there's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's pretty much a queer island, but not anymore. We

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<v Speaker 2>have straight people too. You have all kinds of people

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<v Speaker 2>going there, and it's a beautiful place, absolutely gorgeous, no

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<v Speaker 2>cars allowed. It's that type of island. It's just relaxing

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<v Speaker 2>and wonderful. Our friend Mark and our friends Mark and

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<v Speaker 2>Gym they have a beautiful house there with a swimming

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<v Speaker 2>pool and all that, and we you know, relax, drink,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and eat and do everything we need to

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<v Speaker 2>do to just have a wonderful time.

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<v Speaker 1>So so thank you Mark and jam Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you want to see some pictures of our trip. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>They're on our Instagram accompt.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, yes, and that is why we're a little

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<v Speaker 1>late getting to all of this, and for that I apologize,

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<v Speaker 1>But hey, daddy pop Up needs to go out and

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<v Speaker 1>have some vacation time.

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<v Speaker 2>Seriously, all right.

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<v Speaker 1>Last week we wrote a post about the twentieth anniversary

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<v Speaker 1>of our blog, and I spent most of this year

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<v Speaker 1>knowing that that anniversary was on the horizon, and then

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<v Speaker 1>I spent most of the last month kind of tossing

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<v Speaker 1>around ideas about how I wanted to talk about because

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk about it, and I want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about it further today a little bit. First, I

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<v Speaker 1>do I want to acknowledge the response to the post

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<v Speaker 1>was lovely, and several of the comments that we got,

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<v Speaker 1>both on social media and on our own site made

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<v Speaker 1>me cry. I mean, people talking about where they were

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<v Speaker 1>in their lives when they first discovered us and where

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<v Speaker 1>they are in their lives now, or what we meant

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<v Speaker 1>to them at a certain point in their lives. You

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<v Speaker 1>have no idea how much meaning that.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely for us, Absolutely we do not take that for

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<v Speaker 2>granted ever, And I keep repeating that because it's true.

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<v Speaker 2>Like you said, I started read it's funny because we

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<v Speaker 2>post that, and then we travel and I started reading

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<v Speaker 2>the comments and I actually had to stop it. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not lying. I had to stop because they were getting

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<v Speaker 2>so emotion about them. I was like, I can't speed

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<v Speaker 2>through these. I have to take my time reading these.

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<v Speaker 2>People put a lot of effort to write those comments.

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<v Speaker 2>And anyway, it's so kind and nice, you know, to

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<v Speaker 2>read those comments. So thank you, thank.

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<v Speaker 1>You so much, Yes, thank you. And I want to

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<v Speaker 1>follow that up by as how do I put this,

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<v Speaker 1>because I really don't want to make it sound like

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<v Speaker 1>I'm ungrateful for those comments, because I'm not. I'm extremely

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<v Speaker 1>grateful for them. But I think that that post. I

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<v Speaker 1>had a goal in mind with that post, and it

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<v Speaker 1>wound up becoming a much more celebratory post than I

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<v Speaker 1>actually had in mind when I wrote it. So let

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<v Speaker 1>me just sort of reaffirm a few things that I because, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that post was a celebration of what we have accomplished

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<v Speaker 1>and what it means to still be publishing in twenty years,

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<v Speaker 1>and and yes, we published. We wrote two books and

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred bylines and five hundred episodes of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast, Like all of that is an accomplishment, and

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<v Speaker 1>I have no problem celebrating that or thanking the people

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<v Speaker 1>for who have stuck with us all this time. But

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<v Speaker 1>my goal in writing that piece was to really underline

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<v Speaker 1>how bad things are. And I'm not doing this to

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<v Speaker 1>get people to feel sorry for me, but I do

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<v Speaker 1>think the general public does not understand how hard it

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<v Speaker 1>is to be an independent form of media right now.

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<v Speaker 1>The big difference between when we hung out our shingle

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and six and now is that in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and six, the world was offering a whole

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<v Speaker 1>range of opportunities for writers who wanted to put their

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<v Speaker 1>work out there, and it was encouraging people to start

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<v Speaker 1>do things like start blogs and that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And for a good fifteen years that's how things were.

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<v Speaker 1>You had, you know, social media came along, and then

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<v Speaker 1>you had influencers, and then you had TikTok, and there

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<v Speaker 1>was all these ways in which people could suddenly become

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<v Speaker 1>a voice on their own away from the institutionalized voices

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<v Speaker 1>of legacy media. That people could go out, build a

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<v Speaker 1>little platform for themselves, find an audience, and make a

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<v Speaker 1>living off of that and In the years since, legacy

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<v Speaker 1>media has been bought up and consolidated by billionaires, and

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<v Speaker 1>social media has been bought up and consolidated by billionaires,

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<v Speaker 1>and now they are working as hard as they can

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that all other forms of media do

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<v Speaker 1>not exist or do not have any sort of reach.

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<v Speaker 1>So we have watched, for instance, our social media reach

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<v Speaker 1>collapse over the last three or four years. And it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't because we lost followers. It's because social media lost

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<v Speaker 1>all of its potency because the people in charge of

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<v Speaker 1>social media, they just want ai slop, They just want bots.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't care about things like content, and they will

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, a person like Elon Musk, and actually

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<v Speaker 1>a person like Jeff Bezos and a person like Mark Zuckerberg,

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<v Speaker 1>they have a vested interest in making sure that independent

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<v Speaker 1>voices have no platform. And I don't think they care

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<v Speaker 1>much about a couple of fashion bloggers. What they're really

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<v Speaker 1>trying to do is to get tech reporters and political

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<v Speaker 1>reporters to not have platforms anymore. And we are getting

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<v Speaker 1>stuck in the backwash of that, and it's making it

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<v Speaker 1>much much harder for us to do our jobs. It's

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<v Speaker 1>really I'm sounding an alarm here. Lorenzo and I are

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<v Speaker 1>not going to go anywhere like we are going to

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<v Speaker 1>publish until we die. We'll figure out a way to

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<v Speaker 1>keep doing that until we die. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>we want to work on is shifting from a blog,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, an advertiser supported blog, to a newsletter format.

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<v Speaker 1>But there are drawbacks to the newsletter format, one of

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<v Speaker 1>which is that you are locked into a readership like

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<v Speaker 1>that's it. Like the people who subscribe and pay for that,

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<v Speaker 1>that's it. That is the entirety of your income. Whereas

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<v Speaker 1>when you have an advertiser supported blog like ours, you

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<v Speaker 1>work to gain an audience. You work to get people

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<v Speaker 1>to come to your site who maybe don't come there

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<v Speaker 1>every day. This is something that we have had to

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<v Speaker 1>sort of explain to a lot of our regular readers

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<v Speaker 1>is that we are not a closed loop. We did

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<v Speaker 1>not choose to create a community, and there's nothing wrong

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<v Speaker 1>with sites and platforms that work and strive to create

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<v Speaker 1>a community of readers. We wanted an open readership. We

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to be treated like a general interest site, so

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<v Speaker 1>anybody can comment in our comment section. You don't even

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<v Speaker 1>have to register, and that has been sort of the

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<v Speaker 1>key to our success all this time is that we

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<v Speaker 1>did not allow ourselves to become a niche, closed community.

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<v Speaker 1>And what happens newsletters is that is you're locked into it,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you start losing readers, it's very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>find new ones that are going to pay for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't get me wrong, I think newsletters are where it's

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<v Speaker 1>at in the future. But again, to just sort of

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<v Speaker 1>bring this back, we had a newsletter. We still have

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<v Speaker 1>a newsletter. It's called Twirling Through What I love It.

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<v Speaker 1>We wrote some great pieces back in twenty twenty one

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty twenty three. Part of the two reasons I

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<v Speaker 1>abandon it one is having a newsletter different from a blog.

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<v Speaker 1>It incentivizes you to have takes. You have to have

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<v Speaker 1>a take, so you have to have a take on everything,

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<v Speaker 1>and everything has to be long form and you have

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<v Speaker 1>to unpack it, you know. And this wasn't our style

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<v Speaker 1>of writing. Our style of writing was much lighter than that.

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<v Speaker 1>The second problem with blogs is I mean newsletters, is

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<v Speaker 1>that we started our newsletter on substack when everybody was

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<v Speaker 1>starting on substack because it's it is the best way,

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<v Speaker 1>it is the best platform for earning money for writers.

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<v Speaker 1>Problem substack platforms nazis and comes an issue like as publishers,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not supposed to be on Twitter at all. As

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<v Speaker 1>newsletter publishers, we're not supposed to be on substack at all.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess what I'm saying. I'm expressing a frustration

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<v Speaker 1>here because people are putting all the onus on small

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<v Speaker 1>business owners like us not to make these choices, when

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is not small business owners like us, it's

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<v Speaker 1>the billionaires that are making these choices untenable. Anyway, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to thank everyone for that, for the response to

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<v Speaker 1>that essay, but I did want to take some time

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about what we're facing as publishers right now.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess if I even appeal to anybody who's

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<v Speaker 1>listening to this, try and remember that when you come

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<v Speaker 1>to our site, like turn your ad blocker off and

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<v Speaker 1>try and understand those ads are necessary to pay the bills.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're going to keep on figuring out a way

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<v Speaker 1>to do this. It will never stop. We love what

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<v Speaker 1>we do, we love talking to you guys every day,

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<v Speaker 1>but the world right now is working very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that we can't continue doing that. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>why you see so many sites and publications shutting down,

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<v Speaker 1>so many culture writers and journalists who are now out

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<v Speaker 1>of work and probably not returning to their fields because

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<v Speaker 1>the jobs just aren't there anymore. And that's what I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to get across, is like, yay us, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for support, but also things are bad so and I

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<v Speaker 1>had to work really hard not to make to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that that piece wasn't bitter and angry the way

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<v Speaker 1>I sound right now. Probably, but I do feel like

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<v Speaker 1>I needed to correct the record. Lorenzo's very quiet through

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<v Speaker 1>all of this.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just listening now, I'm just listen. You're right. I

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<v Speaker 2>also want to make the point that the only reason,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons why we still here, it's because

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<v Speaker 2>he's the two of.

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<v Speaker 1>Us exactly low overhead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's just the two of us on this site

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<v Speaker 2>doing everything that needs to be done to keep going. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Also your support. Without you, guys wouldn't be here, trust me,

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you all they I mean we you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>have a great product. I believe in it, but if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't read it then it doesn't go anywhere. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you very much. And if you like what we do,

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<v Speaker 2>if you think we should keep going, that's how you

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<v Speaker 2>support it's come to our site.

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<v Speaker 1>Come to our site, keep your ad blocker off light

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<v Speaker 1>and subscribe to this podcast. Follow us our on social

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<v Speaker 1>media when you can.

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<v Speaker 2>Follow us on social media Instagram, any account we.

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<v Speaker 1>Have Blue Sky.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's how we survive and keep going.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's all based on you, right, absolutely, Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for your support and please keep supporting us. All right,

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<v Speaker 1>why don't we take a short break and when we

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<v Speaker 1>come back, we're going to talk about House of the Dragon,

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<v Speaker 1>and then after that we are going deep into the Odyssey.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back. We're back, and there's a twenty

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<v Speaker 1>two pound cat rolling all over this table right now

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<v Speaker 1>looking for affection, sticking his button my face because when

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<v Speaker 1>we turn these mics on tab Hunter, our big boy

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<v Speaker 1>just loves to be part of the conversation. So if

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<v Speaker 1>you hear a lot of and everything, that's that's him.

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<v Speaker 1>That's okay. So how's of the drug? When that arrow

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<v Speaker 1>went flying into Sir Kristen Cole's eye, and after I

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<v Speaker 1>was done cheering, I turned to Lorenzo and I said,

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<v Speaker 1>this is it. We're in the endgame and it's just

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<v Speaker 1>going to be a lot of character deaths from here

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<v Speaker 1>on out. I think this story is going to get

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<v Speaker 1>very depressing in the in the remaining few episodes.

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<v Speaker 2>It's funny because we were watching the episode and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, you know, he's very handsome.

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<v Speaker 1>Bom dead dead, yeah, ah, but I was so happy

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<v Speaker 1>to see him dead. Creep, I know, creep in an asshole.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't have a lot to say about this

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<v Speaker 1>week's episode. I I'm enduring it. It's cooking, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's on all the burners or and everything's bubbling away.

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<v Speaker 1>All the plots are working for me. It's probably getting

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<v Speaker 1>a little plot heavy. It's probably getting to the point

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<v Speaker 1>where it's harder and harder for me for the audience,

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<v Speaker 1>I think to keep track of everything that's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Are just split up in so many different directions, and

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<v Speaker 1>I admit that I I don't really understand what some

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<v Speaker 1>of these where some of these storylines are going, like,

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<v Speaker 1>for instance, I really don't know what's going on with

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<v Speaker 1>ormand High Tower or any of that. I don't I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't read the books. Like I said in the past,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a bare bones understanding of where the story

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<v Speaker 1>goes and pretty much know how all the people who

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<v Speaker 1>die how they die in the story.

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<v Speaker 2>But I feel that that the show has this need,

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<v Speaker 2>and I understand why to keep everybody on screen, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean, Like because they're actors, they're they're hired,

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<v Speaker 2>they have so they have to have some little story

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<v Speaker 2>for that every so sometimes that gets to be a

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<v Speaker 2>little too much, but I enjoyed it. I mean, everybody's horrible,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. At this point, I'm like, I don't care

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<v Speaker 2>if we all die. I really don't, because there are horrible,

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<v Speaker 2>horrible people. I do appreciate some of the acting. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I still love Alison Olivia. What's her name, Olivia? I

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<v Speaker 2>can't remember my name? Cook, Yes, thank you. I think

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<v Speaker 2>she's phenomenal. She is my favorite, and I really like

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<v Speaker 2>her character. Her character makes sense to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>her actions her.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I like to hate her characters. Well that's

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm yeah, I mean I don't. I don't like

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<v Speaker 1>or admire her character. I think she's an asshole. I

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<v Speaker 1>think they're both assholes. I think ryan neiera and actually

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<v Speaker 1>the story is doing a very good job of showing

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<v Speaker 1>Ryania's turn, which I think I said this in the past.

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<v Speaker 1>I think in some ways this show seems to be

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<v Speaker 1>correcting the mistake of how they handled Denaris's turn in

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<v Speaker 1>Game of Thrones because a lot of people felt that

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<v Speaker 1>that turn came out of nowhere, and it didn't come

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<v Speaker 1>out of nowhere. But it doesn't it wasn't well handled.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas Rhiniera, I mean, you can talk about all the

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<v Speaker 1>pain and all the you know, the the way she's

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<v Speaker 1>been shoved aside by the patriarchy, and the sacrifices she

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<v Speaker 1>has made in her life, and et cetera, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera. But she's a bad queen. Yeah, she showed

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<v Speaker 1>a bad queen.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think why she's so frustrated and going crazy

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<v Speaker 2>is because she knows that she knows that she's not

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<v Speaker 2>a great king.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that it was struck me watching

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<v Speaker 1>it last night was the idea that, you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not saying anything new about George or Martin in relation

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<v Speaker 1>to how he views Tolkien. In some ways, all of

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<v Speaker 1>this was written as a response to Tolkien. He wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to take a different approach. He wanted to I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>say correct, but he wanted to do things differently from

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<v Speaker 1>the way Tolkien did them. And one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that really strikes me about these stories is I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>when Tolkien talks about Middle Earth, he talks about just

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<v Speaker 1>kings as these wise and wondrous creatures of nobility, whereas

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<v Speaker 1>in in Uh the Dragon and How's of the Dragon,

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<v Speaker 1>Song of Ice and Fire and all these stories, the

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<v Speaker 1>basic premise of these stories is no, kings are terrible,

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<v Speaker 1>Kings are inbred monster. You actually cannot take a throne

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<v Speaker 1>without becoming a monster, and that is endemic to the

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<v Speaker 1>storyline here. So she is just fulfilling the viewpoint of

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<v Speaker 1>this entire stories, much in the same way that Ara

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<v Speaker 1>Gorn fulfills the viewpoint of Tolkien by becoming nearly a

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<v Speaker 1>Jesus figure by the end of the story. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>complete upending of Tolkien's view and it's the difference between

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<v Speaker 1>when a European writes fantasy and when an American writes fantasy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying it's a better version, and I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I would even go so far as to say it's

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<v Speaker 1>not always a more interesting version, because sometimes this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>gets really old, like just watching all of these assholes

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<v Speaker 1>take the throne over and over and over again, it

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<v Speaker 1>gets old. So but I do think it's closer to history,

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<v Speaker 1>closer to the world as we know it to start

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<v Speaker 1>with the assumption that anybody who takes a throne is

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<v Speaker 1>not at heart a good or noble per, and strangely enough,

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<v Speaker 1>that will tie into our odyssey discussion later. So I

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<v Speaker 1>do like that, and I like that they're handling it

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that makes it clear that a Rania

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<v Speaker 1>is not a good queen, be she never probably would

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<v Speaker 1>have been a good queen, and say, no one can

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<v Speaker 1>be a good queen. No one can rule and still

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<v Speaker 1>be a good person. Which isn't to say necessarily that, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>the throne has corrupted her, although it has partially corrupted her. Essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>that whole family is so innately corrupt that nobody in

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<v Speaker 1>it could possibly do a good job. Allison. Yes, I

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<v Speaker 1>have some feeling for Allison, and I think Olivia Cook

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<v Speaker 1>is doing an amazing job of showing someone who is

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<v Speaker 1>trying desperately to maintain some sort of control in a

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<v Speaker 1>situation where she has almost no control and she's in

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<v Speaker 1>constant danger.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I like about her character is that she's

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<v Speaker 2>fully aware. She knows what's going on, you know, better

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<v Speaker 2>than most of them, because I think most of them

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<v Speaker 2>are just a about a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I just jump in. I do think that is

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<v Speaker 1>the difference between her and Rhiniera, and it's why she

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<v Speaker 1>might possibly come off a slightly more sympathetic character is

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<v Speaker 1>that she doesn't just know what's going on. She knows

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<v Speaker 1>what she did right, unlike Ryaniera, who does not face

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<v Speaker 1>up to any of the things that she did that

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<v Speaker 1>have you know, brought blowback against her. Alison understands she

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<v Speaker 1>made choices. They were not good choices, and she's stuck

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<v Speaker 1>where she is now because of those choices, so there

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<v Speaker 1>is some regret in that. However, she'd fuck over her

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, she'd kill off all her sons in order

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<v Speaker 1>to save her daughter, which I guess is a form

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<v Speaker 1>of nobility. But she also married her daughter off to

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<v Speaker 1>one of her sons, and I did like that. Helena

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<v Speaker 1>called her out on that. What else, so we have

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<v Speaker 1>the two queens. I mean everything that Damon does is

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<v Speaker 1>not interesting to me at all.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think Damon now he's just a monster. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there's nothing interesting about the care.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think Matt Smith is finding anything interesting in

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<v Speaker 1>that portrayal.

390
00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:09.319
<v Speaker 2>There's no nuance, there's no variation of his It's just

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<v Speaker 2>an asshole. He's just an asshole, whereas people.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Agon and Amons who are assholes much in the

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<v Speaker 1>same way their uncle is. I feel like those performances

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<v Speaker 1>have some nuance to them where you kind of feel

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<v Speaker 1>something for those people. You feel that they're struggling in.

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<v Speaker 2>Some way, right. I wish they spent more time with

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<v Speaker 2>the other folks like Oh White than Hugh Hammer. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the whole thing with the wife and all that. I

399
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.240
<v Speaker 2>would want more of that, like a little side story.

400
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't really find it interesting. You just think, Youugh

401
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.799
<v Speaker 1>the Hammers he is good looking.

402
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:42.240
<v Speaker 2>No, but that's not it. It's just that you know,

403
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.519
<v Speaker 2>you need to show the other people. Well.

404
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess I agree with that on some level.

405
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<v Speaker 1>And I can tell that alf and Hugh their storylines

406
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.640
<v Speaker 1>are going somewhere. They are not obeying their queen, they're

407
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.400
<v Speaker 1>not happy with their queen, and they both got dragons.

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<v Speaker 2>So but I couldn't care less about Raina and her

409
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<v Speaker 2>madness and her dragon.

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<v Speaker 1>And here's my issue with Raina. It's Raina. Now, it's Raina.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Raina.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was interesting that they they combined her

413
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.079
<v Speaker 1>character with a different character from the books in order

414
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:19.880
<v Speaker 1>to tell this storyline. With Sheepstealer, but it doesn't actually

415
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:23.559
<v Speaker 1>make sense. Like she, the character in the books who

416
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:25.920
<v Speaker 1>has Sheepstealer, is not noble. She's not a member of

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<v Speaker 1>a house. She's just a side character who's able to

418
00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:33.160
<v Speaker 1>control the dragon by giving a member of the royal

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<v Speaker 1>household this role. She's sort of stuck like, Oh, she

420
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.799
<v Speaker 1>wants to see her her family again, but she also

421
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.519
<v Speaker 1>wants to hold on to her dragon and live in

422
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.319
<v Speaker 1>a case like, I don't understand what what do you want?

423
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.480
<v Speaker 1>What are your motivations here? I do love Lady Jail.

424
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, I knew I could see the smile

425
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:54.079
<v Speaker 1>on your face. I'm like, he's noting to talk about

426
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:54.599
<v Speaker 1>Lady Jane.

427
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.759
<v Speaker 2>Put her in her plates, you know, like girl, But

428
00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:02.440
<v Speaker 2>I would she really slap a targarian princess and.

429
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.839
<v Speaker 1>Threaten her a targarian princess with a dragon. I do

430
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.279
<v Speaker 1>love Lady James, and I love that actress, love the performance.

431
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:15.680
<v Speaker 1>But I'm like, all of that, that whole situation in

432
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:17.400
<v Speaker 1>the veil, I'm not sure that makes any sense to

433
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.200
<v Speaker 1>me at all. Where is that going? I don't understand it.

434
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.839
<v Speaker 1>I agree as similarly, as much as I love Alice

435
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:28.200
<v Speaker 1>rivers at Haaren Hall. It's starting to go on a

436
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.079
<v Speaker 1>little fucking nowhere, actually, you know, I mean, I guess

437
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.440
<v Speaker 1>it's going somewhere. But didn't we have all of this

438
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:35.519
<v Speaker 1>last season with her and Damon?

439
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.319
<v Speaker 2>I can't. I feel like, like I said, I feel

440
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.079
<v Speaker 2>they just need to have these people acting and they

441
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:42.039
<v Speaker 2>just give them something.

442
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it is an amazing cast. I'll give them.

443
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:46.240
<v Speaker 2>It's great. And the whole thing with Aim and I

444
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.000
<v Speaker 2>don't quite understand what's going on. They having a relationship

445
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:49.920
<v Speaker 2>now or she's trying.

446
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:53.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, she wants that Haroen Hols. She wants Haron Hall,

447
00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and so she's going to figure out a way she

448
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.400
<v Speaker 1>will find a man to fuck to get Haroen Hall.

449
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:01.039
<v Speaker 2>My god, because come on, that's an option of it's not.

450
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:02.359
<v Speaker 1>Going to marry into nobility.

451
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:04.839
<v Speaker 2>But she's obsessed with that place. She wants it, and

452
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:06.119
<v Speaker 2>then she's doing whatever she can.

453
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 1>Carlss Vilaria, it looks like he's dead.

454
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Is he? People are questioning that online. I actually like

455
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:20.839
<v Speaker 2>his character, but he felt a little I'm I don't

456
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.799
<v Speaker 2>know what. Yeah, I'm.

457
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:27.599
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you had me for a while. And I think

458
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:29.680
<v Speaker 1>part of it is that actor's performance where it's like,

459
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:31.839
<v Speaker 1>could you just loosen up just a little bit? You're

460
00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:35.920
<v Speaker 1>so stiff, And I realized that's a choice he's making

461
00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:38.799
<v Speaker 1>as an actor. But like the scene with him and Baila,

462
00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:43.799
<v Speaker 1>yeah kissing, no heat there at all, because the guy

463
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:48.480
<v Speaker 1>is just so stiff I need, especially since this character

464
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.200
<v Speaker 1>has gone through such an enormous shift in his perspective,

465
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.480
<v Speaker 1>his father has welcomed him. He is sitting at the

466
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:59.559
<v Speaker 1>Queen's table, like you should have a difference in your performance,

467
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.839
<v Speaker 1>but instead you're still the same stiff, sort of overly formal,

468
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of wounded guy. I just he stopped being interesting

469
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 1>to me once he went wound up sitting at the

470
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Queen's table.

471
00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:12.799
<v Speaker 2>I did like the whole thing with what is GWayne

472
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.720
<v Speaker 2>and Darren, you know the kids? Yes, that's interesting. I do.

473
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:22.200
<v Speaker 1>What's happening with the High Towers is interesting to me.

474
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm just not sure how it relates to the story

475
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.720
<v Speaker 1>at all anymore. And I do like GWayne a lot,

476
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:29.240
<v Speaker 1>and and Ormond is a lot of fun to watch,

477
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 1>so I'm willing to see it play out, but I'm

478
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:33.880
<v Speaker 1>finding it very disconnected.

479
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.000
<v Speaker 2>And they kind of forgot Aimen a little bit, and

480
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:37.559
<v Speaker 2>we didn't see much.

481
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Of Amon's and heron hall. No which wagon agon is

482
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.799
<v Speaker 1>at the one with the burned face, Yeah they I

483
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.079
<v Speaker 1>mean we did see him a little bit. Yeah, But again,

484
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.119
<v Speaker 1>it just feels like that a lot of like we're

485
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.720
<v Speaker 1>waiting for the final I'm not the final battle, but

486
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:00.240
<v Speaker 1>we're waiting for something to happen. I'm enjoying it. It's

487
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:04.000
<v Speaker 1>a much better season than last season. And I feel

488
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.279
<v Speaker 1>like part of the reason this is all working so

489
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:09.279
<v Speaker 1>well is that they have the end game in mind

490
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.480
<v Speaker 1>and they actually know what it is, unlike how Game

491
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:14.319
<v Speaker 1>of Thrones, where they really didn't know what the ending

492
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.960
<v Speaker 1>was according.

493
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>To is this the last season?

494
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.440
<v Speaker 1>No? Last next season is the last season, so.

495
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:20.000
<v Speaker 2>There's more coming.

496
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:26.000
<v Speaker 1>There's like what ten episodes left total? Eleven maybe, And

497
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I like that. I like that they're not going to

498
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:29.480
<v Speaker 1>drag this out for too long and they know how

499
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:32.039
<v Speaker 1>it's going to end. And I feel that everything right

500
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.680
<v Speaker 1>now in the story is slowly turning towards that ending.

501
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>That's why I said we're in the endgame here, like

502
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.079
<v Speaker 1>it's just going to be a lot of death in

503
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:39.319
<v Speaker 1>the stretch from here on out.

504
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.839
<v Speaker 2>Although I didn't read the books, I feel like I

505
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.319
<v Speaker 2>can follow. Now, you know, I'm not lost right as

506
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I was in the past, so now I enjoy it.

507
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:51.799
<v Speaker 1>The writing is very efficient. They are very good at

508
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.160
<v Speaker 1>making sure that everyone's name is mentioned and everyone's agenda

509
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:59.039
<v Speaker 1>is pointed out, and they do a really really good

510
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 1>job of balancing all of.

511
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.839
<v Speaker 2>These Yeah, and then this area, obviously she's gonna turn, and.

512
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.000
<v Speaker 1>It looks like it it looks like she might turn.

513
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Allison might have gotten her Hawk center, which

514
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:15.240
<v Speaker 1>would be quite a coup on Allison's part. I love Helena,

515
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh Helena. I just want her to tell everyone to

516
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:18.799
<v Speaker 1>fuck off and leave her alone.

517
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:20.759
<v Speaker 2>I know she's an interesting character.

518
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.279
<v Speaker 1>I think that I want her to do something really dark.

519
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:26.200
<v Speaker 1>I want her to, like poison someone or just do something.

520
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.640
<v Speaker 1>You need to get a little of your own back, girl.

521
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.119
<v Speaker 1>You just all these people are manipulating you. You need

522
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.880
<v Speaker 1>to do it, all right, to anything.

523
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Else, I think, become pretty much everybody.

524
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:39.000
<v Speaker 1>All right, let's take another break, yep, and then we'll

525
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:41.680
<v Speaker 1>come back and dive deep into the Odyssey. We'll be

526
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.759
<v Speaker 1>right back. We're back, and we finally got to see

527
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:51.920
<v Speaker 1>the Odyssey last night. I said to Lorenzo literally on Monday,

528
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.160
<v Speaker 1>when we were coming back from Fire Island. I said,

529
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, I know we have to do a podcast,

530
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:58.440
<v Speaker 1>but I really want us to be part of this

531
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.440
<v Speaker 1>conversation everyone's talking about and we haven't seen yet. So

532
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:03.440
<v Speaker 1>that was part of the reason why we haven't. We

533
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:05.400
<v Speaker 1>didn't do a podcast before earlier in the week is

534
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 1>because we needed to go and see this. So I'm

535
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:14.599
<v Speaker 1>still processing this. I will say I'm a big fan

536
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.039
<v Speaker 1>of Nolan's films. I don't think he's a flawless director,

537
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:19.680
<v Speaker 1>but I have seen all of his films and I

538
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 1>think he is a very technically adept, very thoughtful director.

539
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:27.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't think this film is as good as Oppenheimer,

540
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.559
<v Speaker 1>which won him the Oscar last year. I do think

541
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:36.160
<v Speaker 1>it's a very very very good film. I don't think

542
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.160
<v Speaker 1>it's a masterpiece. I think that's what I'm trying to

543
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.079
<v Speaker 1>say here. However, that is not really a criticism, because

544
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.119
<v Speaker 1>ninety nine percent of films are not masterpieces. And I

545
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.559
<v Speaker 1>would go so far as to say as ninety percent

546
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 1>of all very very good films are not masterpieces. It

547
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:53.200
<v Speaker 1>takes a lot to make a masterpiece, and I don't

548
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.839
<v Speaker 1>think that's what this is. I think I just want

549
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:57.759
<v Speaker 1>to go ahead, and then I'm going to toss to you.

550
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 1>I just I'm starting off with that because the initial

551
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.799
<v Speaker 1>round of reviews were so rapturous for this film that

552
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to start off with I think this

553
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.880
<v Speaker 1>is a very good film. I'm not necessarily in agreement

554
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.359
<v Speaker 1>that it is quite as good as everyone is saying, good,

555
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.160
<v Speaker 1>all right, go ahead.

556
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:19.079
<v Speaker 2>I was interested because it's, you know, it's an interesting story,

557
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:21.559
<v Speaker 2>a very famous story. Many movies have been made in

558
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.920
<v Speaker 2>serious TV series about it, so I was curious to

559
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 2>see his take on it. I think he's over praised,

560
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion in general as a director. I think

561
00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:33.559
<v Speaker 2>people to tend to look at him and think everything

562
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.200
<v Speaker 2>he does is flawless, which I don't agree. I think

563
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:40.640
<v Speaker 2>he's an interesting director. He has an interesting take on things,

564
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.200
<v Speaker 2>the way he directs his movies. But I don't know.

565
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I don't know. I think he's a little I

566
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.200
<v Speaker 2>don't know, full little what full of himself as a director,

567
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>and stubborn sometimes on his decisions, like like the way

568
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.279
<v Speaker 2>he sees things and he wants to direct things in

569
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.079
<v Speaker 2>a certain way, and sometimes it don't make sense in

570
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.000
<v Speaker 2>the story in the movie, but he wants it that

571
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.759
<v Speaker 2>way because it's I don't know, it's controversial wards or

572
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:12.119
<v Speaker 2>it's a different take on something I think he is.

573
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:15.119
<v Speaker 2>We'll get to that point here, to this point here

574
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.359
<v Speaker 2>with obviously anyway. So I was curious and then all this,

575
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, all these articles written about it, like with

576
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.759
<v Speaker 2>the cast, because he hired all these people, and you know,

577
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.039
<v Speaker 2>hired you know, black people, brown people, and they're not

578
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.559
<v Speaker 2>all white, and then they're not what we imagine the

579
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.160
<v Speaker 2>artist it should be. So all this conversation, and I

580
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.119
<v Speaker 2>was really curious. I was like, all right, let's see.

581
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.359
<v Speaker 2>I watched the trailer. I was like, all right, you

582
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:43.559
<v Speaker 2>can't see much, but okay, let's see. I'll wait. You know,

583
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.920
<v Speaker 2>I have my like I said, I know the story.

584
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I was a fan of some of the fifties movies

585
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:54.920
<v Speaker 2>about it, you know, the Troy and Everything story. So

586
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:57.680
<v Speaker 2>I was curious. I really wanted to see how he

587
00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:02.079
<v Speaker 2>and I was hoping, because it's twenty twenty six, that

588
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the technowledge that we have right now would work, you know,

589
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.680
<v Speaker 2>like would make magic and present a different version of it,

590
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.319
<v Speaker 2>a more interesting version with a.

591
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Lot more critical of this film than I feel.

592
00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:17.559
<v Speaker 2>So I was like, all right, let me, let me

593
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.240
<v Speaker 2>see it. Let's go see it, And you know that's

594
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:21.960
<v Speaker 2>my introduction, all right.

595
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:27.559
<v Speaker 1>I think it's stunningly gorgeous film. I think it's an

596
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:32.000
<v Speaker 1>incredibly thoughtful film. I think he wrestles with the themes

597
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of the poem and he tries to subdue them into

598
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.880
<v Speaker 1>a cinematic form as best he can. I think he

599
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker 1>makes some choices that perhaps are questionable, and in fact,

600
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:44.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to question a few of them. I am

601
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.079
<v Speaker 1>not an expert on the poem at all, but I

602
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.480
<v Speaker 1>am trying to look at this cinematically and to see

603
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.759
<v Speaker 1>if he accomplished his goals as a director. And in

604
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:56.759
<v Speaker 1>order to do that, you do have to have some

605
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:02.160
<v Speaker 1>understanding of where he diverged from the poem. But I

606
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.799
<v Speaker 1>am not an expert, so I would not You should

607
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.319
<v Speaker 1>not expect me to have any sort of insights into

608
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.319
<v Speaker 1>Homer or into epic poetry at the Bronze Age or

609
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:18.160
<v Speaker 1>anything like that. But overall impressions, let's say, let's start

610
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:24.960
<v Speaker 1>with this. I loved how he made the world seem

611
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:32.440
<v Speaker 1>mysterious and magical but also really small when you get

612
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.559
<v Speaker 1>into and I know that the film was shot in

613
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 1>like six different countries, and I mean they were pretty

614
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:38.599
<v Speaker 1>they were. He was shot in the Sahara, it was

615
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.119
<v Speaker 1>shot in Scotland, it was shot in Iceland as well

616
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.519
<v Speaker 1>as in the Mediterranean. But the sense that you get

617
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.599
<v Speaker 1>in this film is that they are just wandering around

618
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 1>in a small patch of space and they just cannot

619
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:54.640
<v Speaker 1>get home. And at the same token, even though the

620
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:56.279
<v Speaker 1>world that they are in is not that long, I mean,

621
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:57.880
<v Speaker 1>because let's face that. I mean, he took him ten

622
00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.400
<v Speaker 1>years to get home, but it's not like he sailed

623
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.000
<v Speaker 1>to America or anything like that. He didn't discover new continents.

624
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.240
<v Speaker 1>It all takes place in the Mediterranean for the most part,

625
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:07.400
<v Speaker 1>but it's three thousand years ago, and you know, it's

626
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>much more difficult to travel. And I felt that the

627
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:13.039
<v Speaker 1>film did a good job of saying that without saying it.

628
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.759
<v Speaker 1>At the same token, he makes the world look and

629
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:23.279
<v Speaker 1>feel mysterious, weird and old. I loved the castle in Ithaca.

630
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.279
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was so fucking gorgeous. I loved that

631
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.640
<v Speaker 1>it already looks three thousand years old. And maybe there's

632
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.400
<v Speaker 1>some question as to whether or not it should look

633
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.839
<v Speaker 1>as old as it looked, but it felt like we

634
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:39.200
<v Speaker 1>were in an old civilization, which at the time, this civilization,

635
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.599
<v Speaker 1>it actually had been around for a long time, so

636
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:45.640
<v Speaker 1>it would have had some weight too. Right, let's see

637
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:50.039
<v Speaker 1>what else. I I don't think the film has much,

638
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.160
<v Speaker 1>and I could be wrong. People might be mad at me.

639
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.759
<v Speaker 1>Maybe I just missed it all, but I didn't think

640
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.839
<v Speaker 1>the film had much in terms of a soundtrack. In

641
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.400
<v Speaker 1>terms of the music, I look. I have a lot

642
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.359
<v Speaker 1>of memory of the music in the film at all.

643
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.640
<v Speaker 2>I look for it because they use that same guy

644
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.960
<v Speaker 2>who just won an Oscar I can't remember his name,

645
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.280
<v Speaker 2>long haired guy, and he's very talented, and they use

646
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.440
<v Speaker 2>him and he's very good. So I was listening trying

647
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.760
<v Speaker 2>to pay attention to the soundtrack very little. It wasn't like,

648
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, pumping circumstin now. This wasn't a lot.

649
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 1>And I think I think a lot of Nolan's choices

650
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 1>in this film, for good or for ill, was that

651
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:32.239
<v Speaker 1>he wanted to avoid a lot of cliches about the

652
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.239
<v Speaker 1>cinematic depictions of the Bronze Age. So everybody speaks with

653
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.039
<v Speaker 1>an American accent, even the British actors do. He cast

654
00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:45.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, he did racially blind casting and that sort

655
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.199
<v Speaker 1>of thing, and when it comes to the music, I

656
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:50.239
<v Speaker 1>think he wanted to avoid anything that sounded like, you know,

657
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.280
<v Speaker 1>old timey Greek, like you know, people plucking liars and

658
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.280
<v Speaker 1>harps and stuff like that. I think he wanted to

659
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.159
<v Speaker 1>avoid anything that's smacked up cliche.

660
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Right. He is a Swedish composer. His name is Ludwig Garanzen.

661
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>He won for Oppenheimer and you know he's done tanted

662
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:10.559
<v Speaker 2>his work with Nolan before. He's a very talented composer.

663
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:14.679
<v Speaker 2>And apparently Nolan said that they he didn't want orchestra,

664
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.519
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want like sounded sound a little too modern. Yeah, well,

665
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>I think anyway.

666
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.599
<v Speaker 1>It's not a criticism of the film, but it really

667
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:24.599
<v Speaker 1>struck me later. I was like, wow, I can't remember

668
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:26.800
<v Speaker 1>one musical moment at all.

669
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:29.599
<v Speaker 2>I can't. Yes, I agree, and I mean I.

670
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.599
<v Speaker 1>Guess you could actually see that as a criticism because

671
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:36.119
<v Speaker 1>it plays into a larger criticism. But that I do

672
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.719
<v Speaker 1>have about the work, and it's true of Nolan in general,

673
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.239
<v Speaker 1>is that it's cold. His films are cold, and they're clinical,

674
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.639
<v Speaker 1>and there's a certain detachment in his films and in

675
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:49.519
<v Speaker 1>films like the Batman films or in Memento or in Oppenheimer,

676
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:53.679
<v Speaker 1>that sort of detachment works well with the story, and

677
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:57.599
<v Speaker 1>I think it it didn't work well here. This is

678
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.119
<v Speaker 1>a story about passion and fire and sex and blood

679
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.960
<v Speaker 1>and music and food, you know, like it, and we

680
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't get any of that, and we just got this

681
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.159
<v Speaker 1>sense that all of these people are living a very

682
00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:13.840
<v Speaker 1>dry sort of life. And I don't think that's a

683
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.199
<v Speaker 1>very good way to depict a Bronze Age culture. Like

684
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:18.199
<v Speaker 1>they weren't. They had a rich life, They had a

685
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.960
<v Speaker 1>very rich cultural life, they had a rich history. They

686
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:24.039
<v Speaker 1>and all of that is is kind of kept as

687
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:28.159
<v Speaker 1>minimalist as possible because that is his style of directing.

688
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Right, I think, all right, here's my take. It's a

689
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.199
<v Speaker 2>very old story. It's like, what three thousand year old story.

690
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:38.880
<v Speaker 2>That's why the journey feels so special because you know,

691
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:44.079
<v Speaker 2>it took Otis's like a lot of time to go

692
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.239
<v Speaker 2>from front A from point A to point B. So

693
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:52.119
<v Speaker 2>it it's an old story, so you know it, And

694
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.360
<v Speaker 2>that plays a lot into the whole story that it

695
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:59.079
<v Speaker 2>took it took him a long time and everything was unknown,

696
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, all these lands, all these places. So I

697
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.400
<v Speaker 2>think that's what's special about the story, what he confronted,

698
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:10.039
<v Speaker 2>what he saw when he went to every island, and

699
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.280
<v Speaker 2>so that I needed that. I think that's part of

700
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:19.559
<v Speaker 2>the story, is that it's the the absurd, all the

701
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:21.880
<v Speaker 2>things that he saw on every land, that he had

702
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to go through on every land. So I needed that.

703
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.039
<v Speaker 2>I was expecting that. I mean, it's it's what is

704
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.559
<v Speaker 2>it like twenty four books or something, the region of

705
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.000
<v Speaker 2>the story. Of course, he can't cover everything, but I

706
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>felt like he missed a couple of things that I

707
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.000
<v Speaker 2>wish was in the movie. But again, you make choices.

708
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not you know, you choose what you want to show.

709
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:46.840
<v Speaker 2>I felt that not having the gods more present, Yeah,

710
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:47.719
<v Speaker 2>can we shelve that.

711
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Because that's a whole conversation I am planning.

712
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:55.599
<v Speaker 2>I missed that part. It felt like the decisions. It

713
00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 2>felt to me. We'll talk about it later, but it

714
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 2>felt to me that whatever they were going through, it

715
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.159
<v Speaker 2>was just the weather. Yeah.

716
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:05.760
<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about the philosophical aspect of how

717
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.920
<v Speaker 1>we handle the gods, but that's a way to earth.

718
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.960
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to get into the form and what we

719
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.400
<v Speaker 1>liked and disliked before we start getting into the themes.

720
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:15.760
<v Speaker 1>I also want to run down almost all of the

721
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 1>major performances and talk about course. So uh, And I

722
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:23.039
<v Speaker 1>struggled in the beginning.

723
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Can I just say a few more? I struggle in

724
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.599
<v Speaker 2>the beginning with the language. But I went back and

725
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.480
<v Speaker 2>forth on that. Let me just let me just finish

726
00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:31.400
<v Speaker 2>my thought here. At first, I was like, this is

727
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:34.119
<v Speaker 2>very common length, it's a very common language. It doesn't

728
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:37.039
<v Speaker 2>feel like a little special. But again it's my brain

729
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.199
<v Speaker 2>going back to all the old versions of the story.

730
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:47.039
<v Speaker 2>It felt a little simple. But then I kept watching

731
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.559
<v Speaker 2>the movie. I kept seeing the movie in a movie theater,

732
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, you know, it makes sense here. I

733
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 2>understand where this is going, the language and the cinematography,

734
00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:00.719
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's it's a more realistic approach the story,

735
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.719
<v Speaker 2>their conversations and all that. So I guess the language

736
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:08.840
<v Speaker 2>works here, but and I'll add more to it later.

737
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:13.320
<v Speaker 2>The common language combined with very bad performances is just

738
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:13.760
<v Speaker 2>threw me.

739
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:19.519
<v Speaker 1>Off, all right, So I guess we'll get into the

740
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.599
<v Speaker 1>themes then. And I don't think we are going to

741
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:30.960
<v Speaker 1>agree on this, but I he's a very deliberate director.

742
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.360
<v Speaker 1>He makes very deliberate choices. So for him to have

743
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:35.840
<v Speaker 1>everyone speaking in an American accent. There was a point

744
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:39.239
<v Speaker 1>to that, and I don't think it had anything to

745
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.159
<v Speaker 1>do with class or anything like that, because as an Englishman,

746
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he thinks. I don't think that's how

747
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.280
<v Speaker 1>he would have approached it, like, oh, the classic characters

748
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.960
<v Speaker 1>have English accents and the non classic characters don't. That

749
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:53.119
<v Speaker 1>isn't what he did. That's what they did in Star Wars.

750
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:55.880
<v Speaker 1>All the evil people had English accents and all the

751
00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:02.800
<v Speaker 1>good people had American ones. So there's a lot about

752
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:07.079
<v Speaker 1>this film that diverges from the themes and style of

753
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Homer of the original poem. And that isn't because Nolan

754
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:18.159
<v Speaker 1>didn't understand it, or that because he necessarily rejected it.

755
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:23.400
<v Speaker 1>It's that he is trying to, for lack of a

756
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.119
<v Speaker 1>better term, he's americanizing the story, and he's doing that

757
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:32.119
<v Speaker 1>on purpose. He isn't. I mean, I could be wrong.

758
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:35.760
<v Speaker 1>This is my read. I feel that he cast, he

759
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.480
<v Speaker 1>did racially blindcasting, and then gave everyone an American accent

760
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.840
<v Speaker 1>because he is making a film about America in the

761
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:52.639
<v Speaker 1>present day. When you look at the story about about Okay,

762
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:54.559
<v Speaker 1>there's so much here that I have to unpack that

763
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.840
<v Speaker 1>we're going to get into the casting as well. So

764
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.920
<v Speaker 1>about halfway through the film, I was having problems with Odysseus.

765
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.440
<v Speaker 1>I was having problems with Matt Damon's performance because I

766
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.320
<v Speaker 1>felt like he wasn't modulating his performance at all. I

767
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:11.119
<v Speaker 1>felt he was just giving me Matt Damon, and I'm like,

768
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:13.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't forget the sense that this is some great

769
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:16.000
<v Speaker 1>warrior king. I just feel like some guy from Boston.

770
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:23.119
<v Speaker 1>But exactly again, Lorenzo, I think that's deliberate and well.

771
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.880
<v Speaker 1>First off, Nolan said in an interview for The Vulture,

772
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:29.880
<v Speaker 1>he said he cast Matt Damon specifically for that reason.

773
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.719
<v Speaker 1>He knew that people would listen to this guy and

774
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:36.360
<v Speaker 1>assume that this guy was a good guy because of

775
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.440
<v Speaker 1>the persona. And this is what I want to say

776
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:44.199
<v Speaker 1>about all of the casting choices, especially when you get

777
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.320
<v Speaker 1>into the major major stars in this film, and it

778
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:49.599
<v Speaker 1>is a star studded film, they are all being cast

779
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:57.920
<v Speaker 1>because of their persona. So Matt Damon plays a guy.

780
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.800
<v Speaker 1>You have to understand that. And I'm not crazy that

781
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:04.920
<v Speaker 1>he did it this way. That Nolan has this obsession

782
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:08.159
<v Speaker 1>with memory and with timelines, and he forced it into

783
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:12.039
<v Speaker 1>this story so that Odysseus has amnesia, and there's multiple

784
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:14.960
<v Speaker 1>and there's all these flashbacks, and nothing is told in

785
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.320
<v Speaker 1>a linear way, and I kind of got annoyed with

786
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.920
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing. However, when we get to the end

787
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:25.559
<v Speaker 1>of the movie and he's telling about his regrets about

788
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.599
<v Speaker 1>the sack of Troy, you realize that he has been

789
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:32.360
<v Speaker 1>lying to you as a narrator through the entire movie,

790
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:37.320
<v Speaker 1>and that Odysseus is actually terrible. We get hints of

791
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.719
<v Speaker 1>this throughout the story. We get hints of his he

792
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:42.840
<v Speaker 1>keeps making these bold mistakes. He shoots the cyclops when

793
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.440
<v Speaker 1>he shouldn't have done that, that sort of thing. But

794
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.159
<v Speaker 1>it's not until we get to the end of the

795
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:50.239
<v Speaker 1>film that we realize, Okay, he has been lying the

796
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:54.079
<v Speaker 1>whole time. He was bad throughout this whole movie. It's

797
00:42:54.199 --> 00:43:01.000
<v Speaker 1>very notable that you see scenes of his soldiers beheading

798
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:04.800
<v Speaker 1>women and ravishing, you know, ravaging women and burning down

799
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.440
<v Speaker 1>you never see him do it. And he tells this

800
00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:11.880
<v Speaker 1>version of the story that holds him up as this

801
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.159
<v Speaker 1>moral figure when in fact, he's been lying to you

802
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.840
<v Speaker 1>the whole time, and he has been a dark figure,

803
00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:22.199
<v Speaker 1>a violent figure, and a liar throughout this entire story.

804
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 1>So this, to me is my take on why I

805
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.960
<v Speaker 1>think he's making a commentary about America. I'm not necessarily

806
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.480
<v Speaker 1>saying it's an allegory or anything like that, but he

807
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:41.679
<v Speaker 1>wanted to tell a story about a violent, disruptive culture

808
00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:47.840
<v Speaker 1>that is dying because it's lost its way, because it's

809
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.480
<v Speaker 1>lost its moral center. And to him in twenty twenty six,

810
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:54.880
<v Speaker 1>the best way to shorthand best shorthand way to do

811
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:57.360
<v Speaker 1>that is to constantly refer to America.

812
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:00.800
<v Speaker 2>Interesting take, and I.

813
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Do think that's why so many of the choices he

814
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:07.039
<v Speaker 1>makes are in I don't think all of them work,

815
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.000
<v Speaker 1>and we can talk about the gods in fact, do

816
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:10.119
<v Speaker 1>you want to lead right into that?

817
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.440
<v Speaker 2>No, I just felt that it's not if you don't

818
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:15.880
<v Speaker 2>know the stories, not very clear why things are happening.

819
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:18.079
<v Speaker 2>I agree with that it feels like things are happening

820
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.000
<v Speaker 2>because it's bed weather or the island is dangerous, but

821
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a reason why their boats went that way,

822
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.039
<v Speaker 2>or because they had that kind of weather, you know,

823
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.159
<v Speaker 2>and because certain things appeared or not.

824
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.199
<v Speaker 1>It makes some really strange choices here to be sort

825
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.119
<v Speaker 1>of circumspect about the existence of the gods, and in fact,

826
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:43.079
<v Speaker 1>he makes Odysseus out to be basically an atheist, which

827
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:47.960
<v Speaker 1>makes no fucking sense at all. And there are parts

828
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:50.599
<v Speaker 1>of it where I've I've said this to you when

829
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:52.320
<v Speaker 1>we were leaving the theater, I was like, you know,

830
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm not an expert, but I do know this. When

831
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.159
<v Speaker 1>you get into Greek drama, Greek poems and Greek plays,

832
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 1>gods are not concepts. They are physical, actual people who

833
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:09.800
<v Speaker 1>speak and interact and do things. And that was the

834
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:12.519
<v Speaker 1>belief of the Greeks back then. So when you have

835
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:18.360
<v Speaker 1>this sort of Judeo Christian idea of invisible gods in

836
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 1>the scott like, no, that's not that's not what they thought.

837
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.400
<v Speaker 1>What I don't like and I don't think characters like

838
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:28.199
<v Speaker 1>Odysseus would have acted that way, right, That's.

839
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.079
<v Speaker 2>Why I don't like his choices. Sometimes he makes he

840
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:34.480
<v Speaker 2>makes these choices, and sometimes they make no sense at all,

841
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:36.360
<v Speaker 2>or they don't they're.

842
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 1>Not Are you talking about Odysseus or Nolan.

843
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about Nolan and Joe Like he pretty much

844
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:45.320
<v Speaker 2>had no god, but then he decided to have Athena because.

845
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:47.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, well he he If.

846
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:49.000
<v Speaker 2>You have Tom Holland, then you have to have Zindan

847
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.360
<v Speaker 2>in the movie, So let's let let's let's get up.

848
00:45:52.440 --> 00:46:02.239
<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, he didn't have Athena, he had no guilt. Well,

849
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Nolan shot it in such a way and that reveal.

850
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.480
<v Speaker 1>Listen that I heard that there was a last minute

851
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:14.320
<v Speaker 1>reveal about who Zendeya really quote unquote really is in

852
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.840
<v Speaker 1>the film. So I was ready for it to happen.

853
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:18.480
<v Speaker 1>But when it did happen, I was like, Okay, that's

854
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:22.599
<v Speaker 1>poignan as hell, that's heartbreaking as hell. And he hasn't

855
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:25.000
<v Speaker 1>been having visions of Athena all this time. He's been

856
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.760
<v Speaker 1>having visions of the girl that got killed at Athena's temple.

857
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:32.480
<v Speaker 1>She is his guilt embodied, yes, but in the story

858
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:36.320
<v Speaker 1>is I know. But in the movie, right, he made it,

859
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 1>and that's part of the theme is and this is

860
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:42.440
<v Speaker 1>why I feel it's really confused, because putting aside Zendeya,

861
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.639
<v Speaker 1>who I really felt by the end of that final

862
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.760
<v Speaker 1>scene where he's confessing about the sack of Troy, I

863
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:51.039
<v Speaker 1>thought that made it clear that she's not a goddess,

864
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:52.039
<v Speaker 1>she's his guilt.

865
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.039
<v Speaker 2>I understood that at the end.

866
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:58.519
<v Speaker 1>And my point is that doesn't that's fine whatever I

867
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:02.960
<v Speaker 1>don't care. I didn't. But you had a Cyclops, you

868
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:08.400
<v Speaker 1>had the Lystragonian giants, you had seriously turning them into pigs.

869
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:12.039
<v Speaker 1>You had skill in charibdis, you know, pulling them out

870
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 1>of the open ocean. You had all of these mythological

871
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 1>figures and monsters and witches, and you didn't shy away

872
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.440
<v Speaker 1>from depicting them as monsters and witches. Right, why are

873
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you being weird about the gods? And again, I think

874
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:27.920
<v Speaker 1>this comes down to he did not want to do

875
00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:30.599
<v Speaker 1>like a Ray Harryhausen Clash of the Titans kind of thing.

876
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:33.559
<v Speaker 1>He did not want to show Zeus on a mountaintop

877
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:36.800
<v Speaker 1>or Hermes running or whatever the hell the story required,

878
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.840
<v Speaker 1>because from his perspective as a director, that would have

879
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:43.400
<v Speaker 1>been cheesy as hell. And I get that. But what

880
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.480
<v Speaker 1>we wound up with was a sort of Christian version

881
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:48.840
<v Speaker 1>of the gods, which, you know, the sort of you

882
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:50.320
<v Speaker 1>never see them, they're mysterious.

883
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.800
<v Speaker 2>No, that's not it, That's not how the Greeks saw them. No.

884
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:54.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you if you're going to embrace that

885
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.679
<v Speaker 2>kind of story, you have to you have to ignore

886
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:58.800
<v Speaker 2>how to have gods. You have to acknowledge the gods

887
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're the reasons why shit is happening. You know,

888
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.760
<v Speaker 2>the guys are deciding where the where the fuck they

889
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:07.360
<v Speaker 2>go and who kills them or tried to kill them

890
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.559
<v Speaker 2>or you know, it's it's not that simply.

891
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.840
<v Speaker 1>I did roll my eyes, like the scenes with Calypso

892
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:17.400
<v Speaker 1>where she's like, you know, serving as a therapist and

893
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:22.079
<v Speaker 1>there's all this thunder happening because if you know the stories,

894
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Zeus wanted her to let him go. So that's Zeus

895
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:25.840
<v Speaker 1>yelling at her.

896
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Hello.

897
00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:29.960
<v Speaker 1>I realized we can't have Lawrence Olivier come down holding

898
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:32.840
<v Speaker 1>a lightning bolt and getting a speech. But that you know,

899
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.400
<v Speaker 1>as a director, you need to come up with better ideas.

900
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:37.880
<v Speaker 1>That to me was the major failing.

901
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:40.039
<v Speaker 2>And certain combinations made no sense to me. She's someone

902
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.480
<v Speaker 2>giving him the lotus flower, which is not the case

903
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:46.079
<v Speaker 2>in the whole way. Now, I mean, yeah, avoiding certain

904
00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:49.320
<v Speaker 2>things like there's things that were interesting in the story

905
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:51.440
<v Speaker 2>that he didn't show, which is fine, it's your choice.

906
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:56.119
<v Speaker 2>You avoided them. The leather bag situation, what else, things

907
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:59.639
<v Speaker 2>like that that I wish it was there but wasn't.

908
00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:03.199
<v Speaker 2>That's but it felt to me that the women just

909
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:07.119
<v Speaker 2>showed up and you know, like I mean, it felt

910
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to me that every time there was a woman, you know,

911
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:12.159
<v Speaker 2>there was not much there. They were just there to

912
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, support the man, and and.

913
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:15.840
<v Speaker 1>I wish they hadn't get that.

914
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.679
<v Speaker 2>I wish they had explore those characters a little more.

915
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it is it's not very clear what Calypso

916
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.039
<v Speaker 2>is or I don't know. I just that felt to

917
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:24.599
<v Speaker 2>me that.

918
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:29.320
<v Speaker 1>I'll grant you that. I think again, the Calypso here,

919
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:31.960
<v Speaker 1>this scenario was I don't know why we're being so

920
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.199
<v Speaker 1>circumspect here she is a se nymph, like she's obviously

921
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:38.199
<v Speaker 1>got him under a certain amount of control. Like why

922
00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:41.440
<v Speaker 1>are we pretending that she's just some gorgeous woman fishing?

923
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:44.480
<v Speaker 1>But I do want to see this actually makes a

924
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.800
<v Speaker 1>good segue into the point about casting. Why don't we

925
00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:51.280
<v Speaker 1>take a short break now when we get back, we'll

926
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:56.960
<v Speaker 1>talk about that. We're back talking about the Odyssey, and

927
00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.519
<v Speaker 1>now we're going to talk about the casting. Lorenzo doesn't

928
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:02.719
<v Speaker 1>like of these actors, so you need to take all

929
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:05.360
<v Speaker 1>that with a grain of salt. But I do want

930
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.920
<v Speaker 1>to point out a few things here. As I noted,

931
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:12.679
<v Speaker 1>he cast Matt Damon because he knew the audience would

932
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:16.360
<v Speaker 1>assume that Matt Damon was a good guy doing moral things,

933
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:20.159
<v Speaker 1>telling the truth. He's essentially the Jimmy Stewart of his generation.

934
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:22.280
<v Speaker 1>He's that kind of actor where the audience is on

935
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:28.360
<v Speaker 1>board immediately. Similarly, you can look at Charlie's m M.

936
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:32.639
<v Speaker 1>You don't need to explain too much about what's going

937
00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:36.960
<v Speaker 1>on there because it's Charlie's. She looks like that, and

938
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.840
<v Speaker 1>all you need to do is say he's stuck with

939
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:42.719
<v Speaker 1>this stunningly gorgeous creature who will not let him go.

940
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.159
<v Speaker 1>Don't get me wrong, I don't love that Calypso wasn't

941
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:50.639
<v Speaker 1>explained better, but I am explaining his casting choices. So

942
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:53.000
<v Speaker 1>when you cast Shirley's Theren, you don't really need to

943
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.320
<v Speaker 1>explain too much about what's going on there. She looked

944
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.239
<v Speaker 1>fucking amazing, and this shows up.

945
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:01.719
<v Speaker 2>It is a your perfume campaign.

946
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean she was in nets and rags and she looked, Oh,

947
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:06.840
<v Speaker 1>it's just explecting amazing.

948
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 2>It's der commercial right now.

949
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Similarly, Lupita and Yango I gasped the first time they

950
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:15.920
<v Speaker 1>showed her because you know she's I already know what

951
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Lupita looks like but they had her all done up

952
00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:24.000
<v Speaker 1>like a queen and jewelry and everything. Again, you cast

953
00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Lapita and Youngo in that role because A she's undeniably

954
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:31.719
<v Speaker 1>beautiful and B she just gives you regal. She looks

955
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 1>like a queen. And when you put her in those

956
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:38.079
<v Speaker 1>like you know, old style Greek jewelry and every you know,

957
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Bronze era jewelry and fashions, and I realized that none

958
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:45.800
<v Speaker 1>of that stuff was accurate. She just feels like she

959
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:49.039
<v Speaker 1>belongs there. She looks like she belongs in that world.

960
00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:51.880
<v Speaker 2>But that that was my point. Yeah, my previous point

961
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.119
<v Speaker 2>is that these women are were just gorgeous women.

962
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's true of well, I yes, I

963
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:00.159
<v Speaker 1>don't think that's true of seriously, and I don't don't

964
00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:01.320
<v Speaker 1>think that's true of Penelope.

965
00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Penelope was an exception because she's the major exception, well

966
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:08.079
<v Speaker 2>because of an Anne Hathway's incredible performance.

967
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.239
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Anne Hathaway won for the Ages.

968
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:12.519
<v Speaker 2>Man.

969
00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:15.840
<v Speaker 1>That was like I kept thinking of, and I mean

970
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:19.559
<v Speaker 1>this as a compliment, when her and Matt Damon were together.

971
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.719
<v Speaker 1>First off, I was like, wow, look at those middle

972
00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:27.079
<v Speaker 1>aged faces, man, And I do like that. Nolan really

973
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:29.320
<v Speaker 1>lingered on that, you know, lingered on the fact because

974
00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:31.440
<v Speaker 1>they are playing characters who are probably slightly older than

975
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.480
<v Speaker 1>they actually are. Because she's the mother to uh Telemachus.

976
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Well no, granted she's old enough to be mother to

977
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:42.880
<v Speaker 1>an eighteen year old, but it felt like I was

978
00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 1>watching like Sean Connery and Katherine Hepburn. It just felt

979
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:49.639
<v Speaker 1>old school, and with her especially, it just felt like

980
00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:53.679
<v Speaker 1>an old school diva turn. She ate.

981
00:52:55.719 --> 00:52:57.159
<v Speaker 2>She was phenomena. I love.

982
00:52:57.559 --> 00:52:59.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, go ahead, No, she was.

983
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Phenomena because she was able to convey all the emotions,

984
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:05.960
<v Speaker 2>all she was going through as a mother, as a wife,

985
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:08.159
<v Speaker 2>and all that, all the queen as the queen, all

986
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.320
<v Speaker 2>the waiting, all the stress to deal with those suitors,

987
00:53:11.320 --> 00:53:13.840
<v Speaker 2>and all that. She did a phenomenal I think, I

988
00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:18.039
<v Speaker 2>think you have to do that. You have to embody

989
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:20.519
<v Speaker 2>the story. You have to embody the character so that

990
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:22.800
<v Speaker 2>it becomes believable that you look at that person and

991
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.800
<v Speaker 2>you believe that that person went through hell, went through

992
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:28.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff. Well not necessarily him, but went

993
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:30.880
<v Speaker 2>through a lot of stuff. And you look at her

994
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and you can tell. And when she opens her mouth,

995
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:34.599
<v Speaker 2>she she does it.

996
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:38.280
<v Speaker 1>She doesn't about her performance is that she spends most

997
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:42.760
<v Speaker 1>about whispering yes, and but whispering with an intensity because

998
00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:46.559
<v Speaker 1>she is intense and she is angry. But at the

999
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:49.719
<v Speaker 1>same token, she is extremely vulnerable and scared.

1000
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:52.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean she has to be behind a wall.

1001
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:56.559
<v Speaker 1>So she's fierce in her line deliveries. But she's also timid.

1002
00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.119
<v Speaker 1>She manages a timidity at the same time. It's such

1003
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.440
<v Speaker 1>a well modulate to performance. And honestly, if she doesn't

1004
00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:04.960
<v Speaker 1>get an Oscar for that, that's crazy to me.

1005
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:06.519
<v Speaker 2>She should at least be nominated.

1006
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:10.159
<v Speaker 1>She will be, I mean, and Matt Past will be nominated.

1007
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is anyway, But she she is phenomenal. Let

1008
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:16.280
<v Speaker 2>me just say one more thing. I was looking at

1009
00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:17.800
<v Speaker 2>her and I was like, wow, you came a long

1010
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:18.719
<v Speaker 2>way as an actress.

1011
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:23.119
<v Speaker 1>She really really did. She really really really did. She

1012
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:28.719
<v Speaker 1>is like a standing testament to movie stars who become

1013
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:32.559
<v Speaker 1>better over time. Yes, who allowed their movie stardom to

1014
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.400
<v Speaker 1>make them better actors, and she is a prime example

1015
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:35.639
<v Speaker 1>of that.

1016
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:40.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean truly there and performance was you know, delivered.

1017
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:45.360
<v Speaker 1>It was this week Emily Wilson, the translator of the

1018
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:49.840
<v Speaker 1>the Odyssey, who you know, the right wingers hate and

1019
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:54.760
<v Speaker 1>who Nolan. Nolan used her translation for his version of

1020
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:56.320
<v Speaker 1>the script. She came out with an article in the

1021
00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:02.000
<v Speaker 1>London Review of Books this Week and it was nasty

1022
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:04.559
<v Speaker 1>and there was a lot of blowback to it. She

1023
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.199
<v Speaker 1>was highly highly critical of the film, and a lot

1024
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:10.960
<v Speaker 1>of people felt it was nasty of her to be

1025
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.760
<v Speaker 1>so critical of a film like She apparently had sold

1026
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.199
<v Speaker 1>a million copies of her book after an old announced

1027
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:17.639
<v Speaker 1>that he was doing the movie, so a lot of

1028
00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:19.960
<v Speaker 1>people felt like, well, you're trashing a film that made you,

1029
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:24.280
<v Speaker 1>that is making you rich. I don't really want to

1030
00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:28.960
<v Speaker 1>get into too much about her piece. I do think

1031
00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:31.920
<v Speaker 1>she was looking at it, obviously from the perspective of

1032
00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:36.480
<v Speaker 1>a scholar of that era and that material, and I

1033
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:38.679
<v Speaker 1>don't think that actually makes for a very interesting film

1034
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:41.079
<v Speaker 1>review because you're just going to list all the things

1035
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:43.199
<v Speaker 1>that they got wrong, which is essentially what she did.

1036
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.760
<v Speaker 1>But she did talk a lot about Charlie's theron being

1037
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:48.880
<v Speaker 1>a therapist, and I was like that one, I will

1038
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:51.239
<v Speaker 1>grant you. I don't like those scenes at all. There's

1039
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.239
<v Speaker 1>no sense of mystery there and she just talks like

1040
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:57.800
<v Speaker 1>she's in you know, southern California meeting you were in

1041
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.519
<v Speaker 1>her office, like it just didn't be a ancient or

1042
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:04.039
<v Speaker 1>weird or fucked up the way it should have.

1043
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Been, because Nolan was obsessed with him not remembering things

1044
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:10.400
<v Speaker 2>and she was there to try to get those information. No,

1045
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:14.800
<v Speaker 2>she's greedy, she is selfish to the she you know,

1046
00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:17.719
<v Speaker 2>she kept him on the island so that she could

1047
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:21.159
<v Speaker 2>it's a rape essentially, so she could screw him for

1048
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:21.920
<v Speaker 2>seven years.

1049
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:24.320
<v Speaker 1>And all of that is tossed out the ways because

1050
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:25.119
<v Speaker 1>she's so gorgeous.

1051
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:27.639
<v Speaker 2>That's the other thing. There's no sex in the movie.

1052
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:30.920
<v Speaker 1>I agree with, and that was something Emily Wilson pointed out.

1053
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:34.079
<v Speaker 1>And again, yet they lead such dry lives in those stories,

1054
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:36.960
<v Speaker 1>just that no one enjoys food, no one enjoys drinking,

1055
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.559
<v Speaker 1>no one fucks, no one sings.

1056
00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:41.880
<v Speaker 2>And there's no I don't need to see sex scenes,

1057
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:45.400
<v Speaker 2>but I but sex was a very important part why

1058
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:48.159
<v Speaker 2>these men did the thing they did. Yeah, I think.

1059
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:52.119
<v Speaker 1>A Calypso sex scene was probably required. Yes, And the

1060
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:55.000
<v Speaker 1>fact that because her time together is completely sexless, and

1061
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:57.400
<v Speaker 1>he looks like he's about nine hundred years old in

1062
00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:58.000
<v Speaker 1>those scenes.

1063
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:01.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean he lived with Circey for a while. I

1064
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:03.920
<v Speaker 2>mean none of that. I understand this choice.

1065
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:06.639
<v Speaker 1>But but and he yeah, he slept with her, he

1066
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:10.119
<v Speaker 1>slept with Princess Nasoga, right, he slept with everybody. Yeah,

1067
00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:16.079
<v Speaker 1>they don't. And again this comes again. It's all about

1068
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 1>him being an unreliable narrator. So, for all we know,

1069
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.599
<v Speaker 1>the Odysseus of the movie was going around and fucking

1070
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:24.760
<v Speaker 1>all these people, but he had a story to tell

1071
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:26.719
<v Speaker 1>about his returning to his beloved wife.

1072
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:28.199
<v Speaker 2>So and he didn't.

1073
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. Maybe I'm giving Nolan too much credit here,

1074
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:34.880
<v Speaker 1>but but that I do understand the idea that we're

1075
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:38.719
<v Speaker 1>not going to show how terrible Odysseus is until the

1076
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:41.719
<v Speaker 1>very end of the movie, which is that's silly because

1077
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:43.199
<v Speaker 1>it's his obsession with timelines.

1078
00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:44.119
<v Speaker 2>It's not a journey.

1079
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:46.119
<v Speaker 1>I uh huh. I agree with that.

1080
00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:48.719
<v Speaker 2>If you think of a journey, people go through things

1081
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:53.159
<v Speaker 2>right and betrayal, you know, fucking out the people, screwing up,

1082
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, betraying your your your your you know, your

1083
00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:58.880
<v Speaker 2>people whatever, and then you come back. So this way

1084
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:00.960
<v Speaker 2>is just very black and white. Okay, well I'm just

1085
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.159
<v Speaker 2>going here, Oh my god, the weather and then you know,

1086
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:05.159
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, you know, our boat blah blah blah,

1087
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:08.599
<v Speaker 2>and I'm back and it's it's that's not what a

1088
00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:12.000
<v Speaker 2>journey is about. Yeah, the whole story. I mean, the

1089
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:15.559
<v Speaker 2>reason why this story is so wonderful is because he

1090
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:18.679
<v Speaker 2>go through so much, you know, there's so much, so much,

1091
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of challenge, you know, a lot of things happen, right,

1092
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:24.159
<v Speaker 2>and that he has to go through with his people,

1093
00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:28.519
<v Speaker 2>with his you know, and I don't know, it felt

1094
00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:32.320
<v Speaker 2>a little light to me. That's what I meant by

1095
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:34.760
<v Speaker 2>the language. Also, you combine the language and the performance.

1096
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:37.559
<v Speaker 2>I thought the I mean, I absolutely hated Tom Holland.

1097
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.679
<v Speaker 2>He eats horrible in the movie.

1098
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:41.800
<v Speaker 1>I do think Tom Holland and Sunday are the two

1099
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:46.400
<v Speaker 1>weakest performances in the film. I don't think they were

1100
00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:47.719
<v Speaker 1>up to the material. Well, first of all, I don't

1101
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:49.880
<v Speaker 1>think the material asked much of either of them, But

1102
00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:52.719
<v Speaker 1>that was probably Nolan realizing that he couldn't ass much

1103
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.159
<v Speaker 1>of either of them. I don't hate them as much

1104
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:56.880
<v Speaker 1>as you do, but I agree with you that they're

1105
00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:01.760
<v Speaker 1>not actors of any great No, not really. And and

1106
00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Tom Holland just has two or three expressions that he

1107
00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:05.559
<v Speaker 1>cycles throughout that.

1108
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:08.039
<v Speaker 2>And he's he sounds like a teenager number one, and

1109
00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:10.119
<v Speaker 2>I know the character is not about tag, but anyway,

1110
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:13.079
<v Speaker 2>there's a scene with when end Hathaway's.

1111
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:16.679
<v Speaker 1>Like showing him showing you her guts.

1112
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:19.519
<v Speaker 2>He's just staring at her the whole time, like what

1113
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:22.360
<v Speaker 2>is going on? Dude? Your mom is talking to you,

1114
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 2>yell at you have some reaction here. And the same

1115
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:28.599
<v Speaker 2>thing with India. There's a scene where she she's looking

1116
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:31.639
<v Speaker 2>at him and some some something about going back home

1117
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:34.360
<v Speaker 2>with Matt Damon. There's a scene a very serious thing,

1118
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.320
<v Speaker 2>emotional thing, and then she acts like she's pouting.

1119
00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:42.480
<v Speaker 1>She looks, she pounce a lot. She resorts to that

1120
00:59:42.559 --> 00:59:45.519
<v Speaker 1>pou a lot. And it was in euphoria. It's in

1121
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:47.519
<v Speaker 1>the Spider Man movies, like like.

1122
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:51.360
<v Speaker 2>He he's expressing I don't know, I forget the scene,

1123
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:53.159
<v Speaker 2>but he's talking think about going back and it was

1124
00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:55.679
<v Speaker 2>time to go back or something like that, and she

1125
00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:57.679
<v Speaker 2>pounced and I'm like what.

1126
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:01.599
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, However, there was a scene I think it's when

1127
01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:03.880
<v Speaker 1>they're leaving Hades, which I have to admit that scene

1128
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:06.679
<v Speaker 1>in Hades was fucking stunning with all the black sand

1129
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>and everything, and sin On speaking, I know you didn't

1130
01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:13.719
<v Speaker 1>like Elliott Page in this movie. But I thought sin

1131
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:16.760
<v Speaker 1>On was fucking stunning in that scene, and I thought

1132
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:20.119
<v Speaker 1>his performance was amazing in that scene. Yeah, I also think, again,

1133
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.880
<v Speaker 1>why did you cast a very slightly built trans masculine

1134
01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:29.239
<v Speaker 1>man for this role. That's why. I mean, people all thought,

1135
01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:31.760
<v Speaker 1>all the right wingers thought that that he had cast

1136
01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Elliott as Achilles or something like that, But no, he

1137
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:38.760
<v Speaker 1>cast him as you know, the one that Odyssey has

1138
01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:41.559
<v Speaker 1>fucked over, the one that got fucked over by everybody,

1139
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:47.480
<v Speaker 1>the one who clearly wasn't suited for battle, right, That's

1140
01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:50.920
<v Speaker 1>why he cast him. That's and to me, that's very

1141
01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:54.760
<v Speaker 1>interesting casting. It's very thoughtful casting. So I get all

1142
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:56.519
<v Speaker 1>of that, and I appreciate it.

1143
01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I felt that the performances had no weight.

1144
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I don't agree. I think Damon was excellent.

1145
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:07.599
<v Speaker 1>I think Hathaway was excellent. I think I was disappointed

1146
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:11.039
<v Speaker 1>with John leg I think Samantha Morton was fucking amazing.

1147
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:14.079
<v Speaker 1>You really weretant you didn't think Lego Ozama was good.

1148
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:16.400
<v Speaker 1>He's gonna get nominated. I thought it was probably when

1149
01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:19.039
<v Speaker 1>I thought he was amazing.

1150
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:20.719
<v Speaker 2>He didn't know what to do with Mia Goss. I

1151
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:22.920
<v Speaker 2>mean she has a Yeah, he didn't know what to

1152
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:23.199
<v Speaker 2>do with it.

1153
01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:24.679
<v Speaker 1>He didn't know what to do with her. And I

1154
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:27.119
<v Speaker 1>loved her the little bits of her that I saw.

1155
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:30.639
<v Speaker 1>I love her the character. There's more to the character. Well,

1156
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:32.719
<v Speaker 1>I know he hangs all the maids exactly. Well, they're

1157
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:34.400
<v Speaker 1>not going to show that. We're not going to show

1158
01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:36.559
<v Speaker 1>because he's you know, they don't want him to be

1159
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:37.880
<v Speaker 1>too much of a monster.

1160
01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Samantha Morton was awesome.

1161
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 1>She was That scene was very disturbing.

1162
01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:44.599
<v Speaker 2>That's what I was expecting more of Nolan in twenty

1163
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.079
<v Speaker 2>twenty six with all the technology and everything we have

1164
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:48.239
<v Speaker 2>available today.

1165
01:01:48.719 --> 01:01:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Like when she's she's molding their faces.

1166
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Turning them into pigs. That was gorgeous to look at.

1167
01:01:55.840 --> 01:01:59.079
<v Speaker 2>It disturbing, disturbing, but I was expecting more of that.

1168
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, come on, yeah, do more of that. But no,

1169
01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was awesome and she was really really good.

1170
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:10.559
<v Speaker 1>She was very good and I liked that. Again. I

1171
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:12.320
<v Speaker 1>really want to go back and watch this film a

1172
01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:15.320
<v Speaker 1>second time, because you know, he waits until the end

1173
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.559
<v Speaker 1>of the film to show to you that Odysseus is

1174
01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:22.599
<v Speaker 1>actually a terrible person. But that's how she was reacting

1175
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to him. I mean, her reaction to him and his

1176
01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:31.960
<v Speaker 1>men was understandable and relatable if you think about the

1177
01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:35.400
<v Speaker 1>world that she lives in, and you know, again, if

1178
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:37.440
<v Speaker 1>you go back and watch it a second time. I

1179
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.199
<v Speaker 1>think there are a lot of hints throughout the film

1180
01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:44.079
<v Speaker 1>that the story you're not getting is not completely true.

1181
01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:46.599
<v Speaker 1>And I think that is a major scene, because you

1182
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:51.280
<v Speaker 1>if you believe everything that Odysseus is telling you up

1183
01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:53.000
<v Speaker 1>to that point, and if you believe that his men

1184
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:54.880
<v Speaker 1>were very friendly and nice to her when they first

1185
01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:57.039
<v Speaker 1>got there, then she's acting crazy. What the hell's wrong

1186
01:02:57.079 --> 01:02:59.159
<v Speaker 1>with that bitch. You get to the end of the

1187
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.119
<v Speaker 1>story and you find out its and his men were

1188
01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:04.679
<v Speaker 1>horrible and monsters and they were violating Zeus's law everywhere

1189
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:10.119
<v Speaker 1>they went. Her response actually makes much. It's protective, it's correct,

1190
01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:13.400
<v Speaker 1>it's the right way for her to act. So I

1191
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:17.599
<v Speaker 1>do think it was interesting and I think it's an

1192
01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:21.079
<v Speaker 1>excellent film that is going to get a fuck ton

1193
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:25.840
<v Speaker 1>of Oscar nominations. Of course, I think many of those

1194
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:32.440
<v Speaker 1>nominations will be warranted. I really think a Hathaway, Damon Legozamo,

1195
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:33.920
<v Speaker 1>they are all getting.

1196
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:36.119
<v Speaker 2>And Samantha probably Samantha.

1197
01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Morton is definitely going to get one.

1198
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.280
<v Speaker 2>I thought Robert Pattinson was okay.

1199
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I thought he was great. Again, going back to

1200
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:46.119
<v Speaker 1>the casting thing. If you want some snively little shithead

1201
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:49.519
<v Speaker 1>they can't trust and you are waiting for someone to

1202
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:53.760
<v Speaker 1>kill him, you cast Robert Pattinson. Everybody he cast was

1203
01:03:53.800 --> 01:03:57.280
<v Speaker 1>cast for those reasons because they're movie stars and they

1204
01:03:57.360 --> 01:03:59.639
<v Speaker 1>already come with baggage. And he was using that in

1205
01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:02.079
<v Speaker 1>the store in a way that I thought was very smart.

1206
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:06.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess I feel like, don't. I mean, now

1207
01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:09.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, Yeah, it's like going to the supermarket. You

1208
01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:12.239
<v Speaker 2>buy certain items because you you you know you can

1209
01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:14.280
<v Speaker 2>rely on them for certain things. I don't think that's

1210
01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:17.960
<v Speaker 2>acting to me. That's not acting to me. It's picking

1211
01:04:18.079 --> 01:04:20.840
<v Speaker 2>people who you know you can rely on. But that's

1212
01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:21.519
<v Speaker 2>not acting to me.

1213
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:25.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm not talking about their acting. I'm talking about their casting.

1214
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Well that's what I mean.

1215
01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:30.639
<v Speaker 1>You good casting is when you were casting movie stars.

1216
01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:33.440
<v Speaker 1>You cast people according to how you know the audience

1217
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:34.320
<v Speaker 1>is going to react.

1218
01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Why. I think the keyword he's movie star, they're probably

1219
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:40.320
<v Speaker 2>that's the mistake in casting them. I have to say,

1220
01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely love all right. Yeah, we disagree on this

1221
01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:47.360
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely loved him, Himish Patel whatever, he was very good.

1222
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I thought his expressions, his loyalty, it was just heartbreaking.

1223
01:04:52.599 --> 01:04:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I thought that he did a phenomenal job. I really

1224
01:04:55.559 --> 01:04:56.400
<v Speaker 2>liked his performance.

1225
01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:59.840
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't mind seeing him get nominated as well. But no,

1226
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:03.159
<v Speaker 1>Zendeia and Tom Holland absolutely not, absolutely not.

1227
01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Terrible, terrible, absolutely terrible. Sometimes you don't know if it's

1228
01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:10.559
<v Speaker 2>a Dune movie or whatever the hell she doing because

1229
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:13.039
<v Speaker 2>it's the same expression, the same poddy.

1230
01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:14.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh right, yeah, she pounded all the way through doing

1231
01:05:14.559 --> 01:05:16.880
<v Speaker 1>as well, Yeah, it's her thing, it's her thing.

1232
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.159
<v Speaker 2>And then why is she there? Because Tom Holland is there.

1233
01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:23.119
<v Speaker 2>They have to work together, they can't be separated anyway.

1234
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:26.760
<v Speaker 2>He was terrible. He was really really bad. That guy

1235
01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:28.199
<v Speaker 2>can't do anything but Spider Man.

1236
01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:30.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he's He was quite as bad as

1237
01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Lorenzo was making it out to be terrible. This is

1238
01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:37.440
<v Speaker 1>a great film with some questionable choices that are worthy

1239
01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:40.800
<v Speaker 1>of being discussed. But I don't agree with Lorenzo's take

1240
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:43.400
<v Speaker 1>on everyone being terrible in this movie. And I want

1241
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:47.320
<v Speaker 1>to hear what you guys all think. Yes, so let's

1242
01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:48.719
<v Speaker 1>do you anything else you want to add.

1243
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:54.679
<v Speaker 2>The locations were absolutely gorgeous, and it's an interesting take.

1244
01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:58.039
<v Speaker 2>It misses a lot of stuff I don't I didn't

1245
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:01.280
<v Speaker 2>hate the movie. I thought the movie had an interesting

1246
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:06.559
<v Speaker 2>take and uh, but some important parts were missing and

1247
01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:12.480
<v Speaker 2>most of the performances were terrible. That's mighty all right, then,

1248
01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.320
<v Speaker 2>we'd love to hear what you guys think. We'll be

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<v Speaker 2>back next We'll be back tomorrow with a bittercut movie club.

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<v Speaker 2>We're watching Blue Moon, and we'll be back next week

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<v Speaker 2>with whatever crosses our eyes or crosses our desk. Until then,

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<v Speaker 2>take care of yourselves. Love you Meana, by bye bye