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Speaker 1: We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion

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Fest Tell Quitt's walk back to another edition of the

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Pso I am the team, You're telt Tom Fitzgerald, and

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I'm here with the low one, your tee lot. Lorenzo

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has my lovely husband. I don't even know people can

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understand the words that come out of my mouth anymore

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when I do the intro, but they love it. And

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I know we've mentioned this before, but every time we've

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met someone a listener in the real world, they always

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throw the lovely husband line back, which is terrible cute.

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And Lorenzo is my lovely husband.

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Speaker 2: I am a lovely husband.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So we have ground to cover today, and once

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again I need to apologize this podcast got pushed back.

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We're doing it a little bit later in the week

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than we wanted to, and we're tackling some topics that

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are not as fresh as we might have liked for

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this podcast. We're late in getting to someone, one of

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which is we finally got to see The Odyssey. Yes,

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and we have much to discuss about that today. But

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I also wanted to address the comments that we got

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on our twentieth anniversary post last week. But let me

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just explain why we're so far behind on everything right now.

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Is we the dogate our homework. I know I feel

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like I'm giving an excuse, but you know, I'm just

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trying to let people in. We're very I try and

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let people into, like what it's like to publish, what

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it's like to be independent media when it's just the

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two of us. So we went to Ireland and Scotland

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earlier in the month, as you may have noticed because

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we talked about it on our podcast, and then the

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timing wasn't great, but as soon as we got back

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from Europe, we went out to visit our friends Mark

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and Jim and our friend David on Fire Island, and

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in retrospect, I would not have scheduled all of those

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trips back to back like that because I'm freaking exhausted.

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But and it pushed everything back. We didn't get to

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the Odyssey, we didn't get to talk to you about

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your comments on our post last week, so we're very late.

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And I know Lorenzo absolutely adores Fire Island.

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Speaker 2: Right at first, we almost thought about not going again.

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We didn't go last year because we had to go

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to Texas and promote our book, which we loved. So

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we didn't go to Fire Island last year, and because

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we had also travel last year, so this year I

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was like, no, we have to go. I miss my friends.

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And the only time we could all get together was

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right after our trip to Europe, so because you know,

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we all we have friends from all over the country

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and then we get together there and spend you know,

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a few days, so that only worked after our trip.

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So I was like, whoa, we have to go. And

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I absolutely love the island. The island is phenomenal. The

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island can be whatever you want. I mean there's you know,

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it's pretty much a queer island, but not anymore. We

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have straight people too. You have all kinds of people

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going there, and it's a beautiful place, absolutely gorgeous, no

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cars allowed. It's that type of island. It's just relaxing

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and wonderful. Our friend Mark and our friends Mark and

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Gym they have a beautiful house there with a swimming

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pool and all that, and we you know, relax, drink,

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you know, and eat and do everything we need to

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do to just have a wonderful time.

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Speaker 1: So so thank you Mark and jam Yes.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to see some pictures of our trip. Uh,

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They're on our Instagram accompt.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, yes, and that is why we're a little

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late getting to all of this, and for that I apologize,

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But hey, daddy pop Up needs to go out and

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have some vacation time.

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Speaker 2: Seriously, all right.

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Speaker 1: Last week we wrote a post about the twentieth anniversary

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of our blog, and I spent most of this year

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knowing that that anniversary was on the horizon, and then

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I spent most of the last month kind of tossing

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around ideas about how I wanted to talk about because

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I wanted to talk about it, and I want to

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talk about it further today a little bit. First, I

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do I want to acknowledge the response to the post

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was lovely, and several of the comments that we got,

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both on social media and on our own site made

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me cry. I mean, people talking about where they were

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in their lives when they first discovered us and where

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they are in their lives now, or what we meant

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to them at a certain point in their lives. You

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have no idea how much meaning that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely for us, Absolutely we do not take that for

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granted ever, And I keep repeating that because it's true.

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Like you said, I started read it's funny because we

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post that, and then we travel and I started reading

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the comments and I actually had to stop it. I'm

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not lying. I had to stop because they were getting

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so emotion about them. I was like, I can't speed

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through these. I have to take my time reading these.

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People put a lot of effort to write those comments.

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And anyway, it's so kind and nice, you know, to

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read those comments. So thank you, thank.

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Speaker 1: You so much, Yes, thank you. And I want to

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follow that up by as how do I put this,

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because I really don't want to make it sound like

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I'm ungrateful for those comments, because I'm not. I'm extremely

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grateful for them. But I think that that post. I

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had a goal in mind with that post, and it

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wound up becoming a much more celebratory post than I

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actually had in mind when I wrote it. So let

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me just sort of reaffirm a few things that I because, yes,

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that post was a celebration of what we have accomplished

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and what it means to still be publishing in twenty years,

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and and yes, we published. We wrote two books and

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two hundred bylines and five hundred episodes of you know,

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the podcast, Like all of that is an accomplishment, and

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I have no problem celebrating that or thanking the people

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for who have stuck with us all this time. But

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my goal in writing that piece was to really underline

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how bad things are. And I'm not doing this to

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get people to feel sorry for me, but I do

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think the general public does not understand how hard it

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is to be an independent form of media right now.

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The big difference between when we hung out our shingle

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in two thousand and six and now is that in

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two thousand and six, the world was offering a whole

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range of opportunities for writers who wanted to put their

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work out there, and it was encouraging people to start

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do things like start blogs and that sort of thing.

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And for a good fifteen years that's how things were.

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You had, you know, social media came along, and then

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you had influencers, and then you had TikTok, and there

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was all these ways in which people could suddenly become

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a voice on their own away from the institutionalized voices

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of legacy media. That people could go out, build a

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little platform for themselves, find an audience, and make a

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living off of that and In the years since, legacy

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media has been bought up and consolidated by billionaires, and

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social media has been bought up and consolidated by billionaires,

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and now they are working as hard as they can

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to make sure that all other forms of media do

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not exist or do not have any sort of reach.

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So we have watched, for instance, our social media reach

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collapse over the last three or four years. And it

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wasn't because we lost followers. It's because social media lost

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all of its potency because the people in charge of

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social media, they just want ai slop, They just want bots.

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They don't care about things like content, and they will

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and you know, a person like Elon Musk, and actually

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a person like Jeff Bezos and a person like Mark Zuckerberg,

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they have a vested interest in making sure that independent

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voices have no platform. And I don't think they care

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much about a couple of fashion bloggers. What they're really

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trying to do is to get tech reporters and political

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reporters to not have platforms anymore. And we are getting

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stuck in the backwash of that, and it's making it

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much much harder for us to do our jobs. It's

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really I'm sounding an alarm here. Lorenzo and I are

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not going to go anywhere like we are going to

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publish until we die. We'll figure out a way to

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keep doing that until we die. One of the things

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we want to work on is shifting from a blog,

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you know, an advertiser supported blog, to a newsletter format.

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But there are drawbacks to the newsletter format, one of

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which is that you are locked into a readership like

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that's it. Like the people who subscribe and pay for that,

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that's it. That is the entirety of your income. Whereas

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when you have an advertiser supported blog like ours, you

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work to gain an audience. You work to get people

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to come to your site who maybe don't come there

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every day. This is something that we have had to

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sort of explain to a lot of our regular readers

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is that we are not a closed loop. We did

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not choose to create a community, and there's nothing wrong

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with sites and platforms that work and strive to create

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a community of readers. We wanted an open readership. We

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wanted to be treated like a general interest site, so

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anybody can comment in our comment section. You don't even

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have to register, and that has been sort of the

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key to our success all this time is that we

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did not allow ourselves to become a niche, closed community.

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And what happens newsletters is that is you're locked into it,

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and if you start losing readers, it's very hard to

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find new ones that are going to pay for it.

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Don't get me wrong, I think newsletters are where it's

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at in the future. But again, to just sort of

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bring this back, we had a newsletter. We still have

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a newsletter. It's called Twirling Through What I love It.

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We wrote some great pieces back in twenty twenty one

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to twenty twenty three. Part of the two reasons I

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abandon it one is having a newsletter different from a blog.

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It incentivizes you to have takes. You have to have

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a take, so you have to have a take on everything,

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and everything has to be long form and you have

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to unpack it, you know. And this wasn't our style

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of writing. Our style of writing was much lighter than that.

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The second problem with blogs is I mean newsletters, is

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that we started our newsletter on substack when everybody was

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starting on substack because it's it is the best way,

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it is the best platform for earning money for writers.

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Problem substack platforms nazis and comes an issue like as publishers,

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we're not supposed to be on Twitter at all. As

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newsletter publishers, we're not supposed to be on substack at all.

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And I guess what I'm saying. I'm expressing a frustration

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here because people are putting all the onus on small

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business owners like us not to make these choices, when

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the problem is not small business owners like us, it's

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the billionaires that are making these choices untenable. Anyway, I

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want to thank everyone for that, for the response to

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that essay, but I did want to take some time

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and talk about what we're facing as publishers right now.

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And I guess if I even appeal to anybody who's

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listening to this, try and remember that when you come

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to our site, like turn your ad blocker off and

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try and understand those ads are necessary to pay the bills.

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And we're going to keep on figuring out a way

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to do this. It will never stop. We love what

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we do, we love talking to you guys every day,

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but the world right now is working very hard to

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make sure that we can't continue doing that. And it's

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why you see so many sites and publications shutting down,

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so many culture writers and journalists who are now out

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of work and probably not returning to their fields because

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the jobs just aren't there anymore. And that's what I

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wanted to get across, is like, yay us, thank you

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for support, but also things are bad so and I

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had to work really hard not to make to make

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sure that that piece wasn't bitter and angry the way

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I sound right now. Probably, but I do feel like

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I needed to correct the record. Lorenzo's very quiet through

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all of this.

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Speaker 2: I'm just listening now, I'm just listen. You're right. I

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also want to make the point that the only reason,

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one of the reasons why we still here, it's because

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he's the two of.

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Speaker 1: Us exactly low overhead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just the two of us on this site

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doing everything that needs to be done to keep going. Yeah.

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Also your support. Without you, guys wouldn't be here, trust me,

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Thank you all they I mean we you know, we

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have a great product. I believe in it, but if

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you don't read it then it doesn't go anywhere. Sorry,

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thank you very much. And if you like what we do,

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if you think we should keep going, that's how you

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support it's come to our site.

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Speaker 1: Come to our site, keep your ad blocker off light

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and subscribe to this podcast. Follow us our on social

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media when you can.

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Speaker 2: Follow us on social media Instagram, any account we.

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Speaker 1: Have Blue Sky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how we survive and keep going.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's all based on you, right, absolutely, Thank you

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for your support and please keep supporting us. All right,

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why don't we take a short break and when we

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come back, we're going to talk about House of the Dragon,

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and then after that we are going deep into the Odyssey.

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We'll be right back. We're back, and there's a twenty

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two pound cat rolling all over this table right now

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looking for affection, sticking his button my face because when

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we turn these mics on tab Hunter, our big boy

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just loves to be part of the conversation. So if

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you hear a lot of and everything, that's that's him.

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That's okay. So how's of the drug? When that arrow

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went flying into Sir Kristen Cole's eye, and after I

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was done cheering, I turned to Lorenzo and I said,

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this is it. We're in the endgame and it's just

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going to be a lot of character deaths from here

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on out. I think this story is going to get

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very depressing in the in the remaining few episodes.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because we were watching the episode and I

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was like, you know, he's very handsome.

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Speaker 1: Bom dead dead, yeah, ah, but I was so happy

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to see him dead. Creep, I know, creep in an asshole.

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So I don't have a lot to say about this

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week's episode. I I'm enduring it. It's cooking, you know,

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it's on all the burners or and everything's bubbling away.

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All the plots are working for me. It's probably getting

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a little plot heavy. It's probably getting to the point

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where it's harder and harder for me for the audience,

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I think to keep track of everything that's going on.

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Are just split up in so many different directions, and

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I admit that I I don't really understand what some

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of these where some of these storylines are going, like,

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for instance, I really don't know what's going on with

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ormand High Tower or any of that. I don't I

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haven't read the books. Like I said in the past,

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I have a bare bones understanding of where the story

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goes and pretty much know how all the people who

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die how they die in the story.

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Speaker 2: But I feel that that the show has this need,

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and I understand why to keep everybody on screen, you

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know what I mean, Like because they're actors, they're they're hired,

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they have so they have to have some little story

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for that every so sometimes that gets to be a

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little too much, but I enjoyed it. I mean, everybody's horrible,

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you know. At this point, I'm like, I don't care

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if we all die. I really don't, because there are horrible,

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horrible people. I do appreciate some of the acting. I mean,

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I still love Alison Olivia. What's her name, Olivia? I

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can't remember my name? Cook, Yes, thank you. I think

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she's phenomenal. She is my favorite, and I really like

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her character. Her character makes sense to be, you know,

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her actions her.

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Speaker 1: I mean I like to hate her characters. Well that's

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what I'm yeah, I mean I don't. I don't like

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or admire her character. I think she's an asshole. I

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think they're both assholes. I think ryan neiera and actually

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the story is doing a very good job of showing

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Ryania's turn, which I think I said this in the past.

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I think in some ways this show seems to be

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correcting the mistake of how they handled Denaris's turn in

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Game of Thrones because a lot of people felt that

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that turn came out of nowhere, and it didn't come

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out of nowhere. But it doesn't it wasn't well handled.

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Whereas Rhiniera, I mean, you can talk about all the

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pain and all the you know, the the way she's

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been shoved aside by the patriarchy, and the sacrifices she

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has made in her life, and et cetera, et cetera,

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et cetera. But she's a bad queen. Yeah, she showed

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a bad queen.

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Speaker 2: And I think why she's so frustrated and going crazy

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is because she knows that she knows that she's not

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a great king.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that it was struck me watching

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it last night was the idea that, you know, I'm

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not saying anything new about George or Martin in relation

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to how he views Tolkien. In some ways, all of

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this was written as a response to Tolkien. He wanted

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to take a different approach. He wanted to I wouldn't

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say correct, but he wanted to do things differently from

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the way Tolkien did them. And one of the things

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that really strikes me about these stories is I mean,

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when Tolkien talks about Middle Earth, he talks about just

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kings as these wise and wondrous creatures of nobility, whereas

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in in Uh the Dragon and How's of the Dragon,

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Song of Ice and Fire and all these stories, the

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basic premise of these stories is no, kings are terrible,

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Kings are inbred monster. You actually cannot take a throne

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without becoming a monster, and that is endemic to the

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storyline here. So she is just fulfilling the viewpoint of

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this entire stories, much in the same way that Ara

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Gorn fulfills the viewpoint of Tolkien by becoming nearly a

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Jesus figure by the end of the story. It's a

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complete upending of Tolkien's view and it's the difference between

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when a European writes fantasy and when an American writes fantasy.

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I'm not saying it's a better version, and I mean

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I would even go so far as to say it's

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not always a more interesting version, because sometimes this stuff

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gets really old, like just watching all of these assholes

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take the throne over and over and over again, it

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gets old. So but I do think it's closer to history,

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closer to the world as we know it to start

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with the assumption that anybody who takes a throne is

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not at heart a good or noble per, and strangely enough,

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that will tie into our odyssey discussion later. So I

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do like that, and I like that they're handling it

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in a way that makes it clear that a Rania

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is not a good queen, be she never probably would

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have been a good queen, and say, no one can

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be a good queen. No one can rule and still

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be a good person. Which isn't to say necessarily that, oh,

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the throne has corrupted her, although it has partially corrupted her. Essentially,

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that whole family is so innately corrupt that nobody in

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it could possibly do a good job. Allison. Yes, I

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have some feeling for Allison, and I think Olivia Cook

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is doing an amazing job of showing someone who is

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trying desperately to maintain some sort of control in a

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situation where she has almost no control and she's in

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constant danger.

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Speaker 2: But what I like about her character is that she's

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fully aware. She knows what's going on, you know, better

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than most of them, because I think most of them

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are just a about a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Can I just jump in. I do think that is

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the difference between her and Rhiniera, and it's why she

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might possibly come off a slightly more sympathetic character is

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that she doesn't just know what's going on. She knows

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what she did right, unlike Ryaniera, who does not face

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up to any of the things that she did that

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have you know, brought blowback against her. Alison understands she

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made choices. They were not good choices, and she's stuck

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where she is now because of those choices, so there

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is some regret in that. However, she'd fuck over her

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I mean, she'd kill off all her sons in order

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to save her daughter, which I guess is a form

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of nobility. But she also married her daughter off to

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one of her sons, and I did like that. Helena

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called her out on that. What else, so we have

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the two queens. I mean everything that Damon does is

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not interesting to me at all.

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Speaker 2: No, I think Damon now he's just a monster. I mean,

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there's nothing interesting about the care.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Matt Smith is finding anything interesting in

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that portrayal.

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Speaker 2: There's no nuance, there's no variation of his It's just

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an asshole. He's just an asshole, whereas people.

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Speaker 1: Like Agon and Amons who are assholes much in the

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same way their uncle is. I feel like those performances

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have some nuance to them where you kind of feel

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something for those people. You feel that they're struggling in.

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Speaker 2: Some way, right. I wish they spent more time with

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the other folks like Oh White than Hugh Hammer. You know,

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the whole thing with the wife and all that. I

399
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would want more of that, like a little side story.

400
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Speaker 1: I don't really find it interesting. You just think, Youugh

401
00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:39,799
the Hammers he is good looking.

402
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Speaker 2: No, but that's not it. It's just that you know,

403
00:21:42,279 --> 00:21:44,519
you need to show the other people. Well.

404
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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I agree with that on some level.

405
00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:51,960
And I can tell that alf and Hugh their storylines

406
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,640
are going somewhere. They are not obeying their queen, they're

407
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not happy with their queen, and they both got dragons.

408
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Speaker 2: So but I couldn't care less about Raina and her

409
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madness and her dragon.

410
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Speaker 1: And here's my issue with Raina. It's Raina. Now, it's Raina.

411
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Speaker 2: It's Raina.

412
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Speaker 1: I think it was interesting that they they combined her

413
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character with a different character from the books in order

414
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to tell this storyline. With Sheepstealer, but it doesn't actually

415
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make sense. Like she, the character in the books who

416
00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:25,920
has Sheepstealer, is not noble. She's not a member of

417
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a house. She's just a side character who's able to

418
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control the dragon by giving a member of the royal

419
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household this role. She's sort of stuck like, Oh, she

420
00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:41,799
wants to see her her family again, but she also

421
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wants to hold on to her dragon and live in

422
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:46,319
a case like, I don't understand what what do you want?

423
00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:50,480
What are your motivations here? I do love Lady Jail.

424
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,440
Oh my god, I knew I could see the smile

425
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,079
on your face. I'm like, he's noting to talk about

426
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Lady Jane.

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Speaker 2: Put her in her plates, you know, like girl, But

428
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,440
I would she really slap a targarian princess and.

429
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Speaker 1: Threaten her a targarian princess with a dragon. I do

430
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,279
love Lady James, and I love that actress, love the performance.

431
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:15,680
But I'm like, all of that, that whole situation in

432
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,400
the veil, I'm not sure that makes any sense to

433
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,200
me at all. Where is that going? I don't understand it.

434
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I agree as similarly, as much as I love Alice

435
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,200
rivers at Haaren Hall. It's starting to go on a

436
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little fucking nowhere, actually, you know, I mean, I guess

437
00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:33,440
it's going somewhere. But didn't we have all of this

438
00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:35,519
last season with her and Damon?

439
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Speaker 2: I can't. I feel like, like I said, I feel

440
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,079
they just need to have these people acting and they

441
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just give them something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is an amazing cast. I'll give them.

443
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Speaker 2: It's great. And the whole thing with Aim and I

444
00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:49,000
don't quite understand what's going on. They having a relationship

445
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now or she's trying.

446
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Speaker 1: I mean, she wants that Haroen Hols. She wants Haron Hall,

447
00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:55,240
and so she's going to figure out a way she

448
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will find a man to fuck to get Haroen Hall.

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Speaker 2: My god, because come on, that's an option of it's not.

450
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Speaker 1: Going to marry into nobility.

451
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Speaker 2: But she's obsessed with that place. She wants it, and

452
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then she's doing whatever she can.

453
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Speaker 1: Carlss Vilaria, it looks like he's dead.

454
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Speaker 2: Is he? People are questioning that online. I actually like

455
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his character, but he felt a little I'm I don't

456
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,799
know what. Yeah, I'm.

457
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Speaker 1: Yes, you had me for a while. And I think

458
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part of it is that actor's performance where it's like,

459
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,839
could you just loosen up just a little bit? You're

460
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so stiff, And I realized that's a choice he's making

461
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as an actor. But like the scene with him and Baila,

462
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:43,799
yeah kissing, no heat there at all, because the guy

463
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is just so stiff I need, especially since this character

464
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,200
has gone through such an enormous shift in his perspective,

465
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his father has welcomed him. He is sitting at the

466
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:59,559
Queen's table, like you should have a difference in your performance,

467
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:03,839
but instead you're still the same stiff, sort of overly formal,

468
00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:07,240
kind of wounded guy. I just he stopped being interesting

469
00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:08,759
to me once he went wound up sitting at the

470
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Queen's table.

471
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Speaker 2: I did like the whole thing with what is GWayne

472
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,720
and Darren, you know the kids? Yes, that's interesting. I do.

473
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Speaker 1: What's happening with the High Towers is interesting to me.

474
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I'm just not sure how it relates to the story

475
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,720
at all anymore. And I do like GWayne a lot,

476
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:29,240
and and Ormond is a lot of fun to watch,

477
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,400
so I'm willing to see it play out, but I'm

478
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,880
finding it very disconnected.

479
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: And they kind of forgot Aimen a little bit, and

480
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,559
we didn't see much.

481
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: Of Amon's and heron hall. No which wagon agon is

482
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,799
at the one with the burned face, Yeah they I

483
00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:48,079
mean we did see him a little bit. Yeah, But again,

484
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,119
it just feels like that a lot of like we're

485
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,720
waiting for the final I'm not the final battle, but

486
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:00,240
we're waiting for something to happen. I'm enjoying it. It's

487
00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:04,000
a much better season than last season. And I feel

488
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:07,279
like part of the reason this is all working so

489
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,279
well is that they have the end game in mind

490
00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:12,480
and they actually know what it is, unlike how Game

491
00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:14,319
of Thrones, where they really didn't know what the ending

492
00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:15,960
was according.

493
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: To is this the last season?

494
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: No? Last next season is the last season, so.

495
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: There's more coming.

496
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: There's like what ten episodes left total? Eleven maybe, And

497
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:27,640
I like that. I like that they're not going to

498
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,480
drag this out for too long and they know how

499
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,039
it's going to end. And I feel that everything right

500
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,680
now in the story is slowly turning towards that ending.

501
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:36,720
That's why I said we're in the endgame here, like

502
00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:38,079
it's just going to be a lot of death in

503
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:39,319
the stretch from here on out.

504
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,839
Speaker 2: Although I didn't read the books, I feel like I

505
00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,319
can follow. Now, you know, I'm not lost right as

506
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,279
I was in the past, so now I enjoy it.

507
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:51,799
Speaker 1: The writing is very efficient. They are very good at

508
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,160
making sure that everyone's name is mentioned and everyone's agenda

509
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:59,039
is pointed out, and they do a really really good

510
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,319
job of balancing all of.

511
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,839
Speaker 2: These Yeah, and then this area, obviously she's gonna turn, and.

512
00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: It looks like it it looks like she might turn.

513
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,119
I mean, Allison might have gotten her Hawk center, which

514
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,240
would be quite a coup on Allison's part. I love Helena,

515
00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:17,680
Oh Helena. I just want her to tell everyone to

516
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,799
fuck off and leave her alone.

517
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,759
Speaker 2: I know she's an interesting character.

518
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,279
Speaker 1: I think that I want her to do something really dark.

519
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,200
I want her to, like poison someone or just do something.

520
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:28,640
You need to get a little of your own back, girl.

521
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,119
You just all these people are manipulating you. You need

522
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,880
to do it, all right, to anything.

523
00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:35,559
Speaker 2: Else, I think, become pretty much everybody.

524
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: All right, let's take another break, yep, and then we'll

525
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,680
come back and dive deep into the Odyssey. We'll be

526
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:46,759
right back. We're back, and we finally got to see

527
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:51,920
the Odyssey last night. I said to Lorenzo literally on Monday,

528
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,160
when we were coming back from Fire Island. I said,

529
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,920
you know, I know we have to do a podcast,

530
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,440
but I really want us to be part of this

531
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,440
conversation everyone's talking about and we haven't seen yet. So

532
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,440
that was part of the reason why we haven't. We

533
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,400
didn't do a podcast before earlier in the week is

534
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,440
because we needed to go and see this. So I'm

535
00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:14,599
still processing this. I will say I'm a big fan

536
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,039
of Nolan's films. I don't think he's a flawless director,

537
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,680
but I have seen all of his films and I

538
00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:23,880
think he is a very technically adept, very thoughtful director.

539
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,799
I don't think this film is as good as Oppenheimer,

540
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,559
which won him the Oscar last year. I do think

541
00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:36,160
it's a very very very good film. I don't think

542
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,160
it's a masterpiece. I think that's what I'm trying to

543
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,079
say here. However, that is not really a criticism, because

544
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,119
ninety nine percent of films are not masterpieces. And I

545
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,559
would go so far as to say as ninety percent

546
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:51,480
of all very very good films are not masterpieces. It

547
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,200
takes a lot to make a masterpiece, and I don't

548
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,839
think that's what this is. I think I just want

549
00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:57,759
to go ahead, and then I'm going to toss to you.

550
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:03,720
I just I'm starting off with that because the initial

551
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:06,799
round of reviews were so rapturous for this film that

552
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,880
I just wanted to start off with I think this

553
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,880
is a very good film. I'm not necessarily in agreement

554
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,359
that it is quite as good as everyone is saying, good,

555
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,160
all right, go ahead.

556
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,079
Speaker 2: I was interested because it's, you know, it's an interesting story,

557
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:21,559
a very famous story. Many movies have been made in

558
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,920
serious TV series about it, so I was curious to

559
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,799
see his take on it. I think he's over praised,

560
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,400
in my opinion in general as a director. I think

561
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,559
people to tend to look at him and think everything

562
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,200
he does is flawless, which I don't agree. I think

563
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,640
he's an interesting director. He has an interesting take on things,

564
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,200
the way he directs his movies. But I don't know.

565
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,200
Sometimes I don't know. I think he's a little I

566
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,200
don't know, full little what full of himself as a director,

567
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:57,960
and stubborn sometimes on his decisions, like like the way

568
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,279
he sees things and he wants to direct things in

569
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,079
a certain way, and sometimes it don't make sense in

570
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,000
the story in the movie, but he wants it that

571
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,759
way because it's I don't know, it's controversial wards or

572
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,119
it's a different take on something I think he is.

573
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,119
We'll get to that point here, to this point here

574
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,359
with obviously anyway. So I was curious and then all this,

575
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,880
you know, all these articles written about it, like with

576
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,759
the cast, because he hired all these people, and you know,

577
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,039
hired you know, black people, brown people, and they're not

578
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:32,559
all white, and then they're not what we imagine the

579
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,160
artist it should be. So all this conversation, and I

580
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,119
was really curious. I was like, all right, let's see.

581
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:39,359
I watched the trailer. I was like, all right, you

582
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,559
can't see much, but okay, let's see. I'll wait. You know,

583
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,920
I have my like I said, I know the story.

584
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400
I was a fan of some of the fifties movies

585
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,920
about it, you know, the Troy and Everything story. So

586
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,680
I was curious. I really wanted to see how he

587
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,079
and I was hoping, because it's twenty twenty six, that

588
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,440
the technowledge that we have right now would work, you know,

589
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,680
like would make magic and present a different version of it,

590
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:13,319
a more interesting version with a.

591
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: Lot more critical of this film than I feel.

592
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:17,559
Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, let me, let me

593
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:20,240
see it. Let's go see it, And you know that's

594
00:31:20,279 --> 00:31:21,960
my introduction, all right.

595
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:27,559
Speaker 1: I think it's stunningly gorgeous film. I think it's an

596
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:32,000
incredibly thoughtful film. I think he wrestles with the themes

597
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,200
of the poem and he tries to subdue them into

598
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,880
a cinematic form as best he can. I think he

599
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,640
makes some choices that perhaps are questionable, and in fact,

600
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,400
I'm going to question a few of them. I am

601
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,079
not an expert on the poem at all, but I

602
00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:52,480
am trying to look at this cinematically and to see

603
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:54,759
if he accomplished his goals as a director. And in

604
00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:56,759
order to do that, you do have to have some

605
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:02,160
understanding of where he diverged from the poem. But I

606
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,799
am not an expert, so I would not You should

607
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,319
not expect me to have any sort of insights into

608
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:10,319
Homer or into epic poetry at the Bronze Age or

609
00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:18,160
anything like that. But overall impressions, let's say, let's start

610
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,960
with this. I loved how he made the world seem

611
00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:32,440
mysterious and magical but also really small when you get

612
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,559
into and I know that the film was shot in

613
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:36,559
like six different countries, and I mean they were pretty

614
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:38,599
they were. He was shot in the Sahara, it was

615
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,119
shot in Scotland, it was shot in Iceland as well

616
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,519
as in the Mediterranean. But the sense that you get

617
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:47,599
in this film is that they are just wandering around

618
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:49,720
in a small patch of space and they just cannot

619
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,640
get home. And at the same token, even though the

620
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,279
world that they are in is not that long, I mean,

621
00:32:56,279 --> 00:32:57,880
because let's face that. I mean, he took him ten

622
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,400
years to get home, but it's not like he sailed

623
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,000
to America or anything like that. He didn't discover new continents.

624
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:04,240
It all takes place in the Mediterranean for the most part,

625
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:07,400
but it's three thousand years ago, and you know, it's

626
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:10,440
much more difficult to travel. And I felt that the

627
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,039
film did a good job of saying that without saying it.

628
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,759
At the same token, he makes the world look and

629
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:23,279
feel mysterious, weird and old. I loved the castle in Ithaca.

630
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,279
I thought it was so fucking gorgeous. I loved that

631
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,640
it already looks three thousand years old. And maybe there's

632
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,400
some question as to whether or not it should look

633
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,839
as old as it looked, but it felt like we

634
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:39,200
were in an old civilization, which at the time, this civilization,

635
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,599
it actually had been around for a long time, so

636
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,640
it would have had some weight too. Right, let's see

637
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,039
what else. I I don't think the film has much,

638
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:52,160
and I could be wrong. People might be mad at me.

639
00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:54,759
Maybe I just missed it all, but I didn't think

640
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:57,839
the film had much in terms of a soundtrack. In

641
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,400
terms of the music, I look. I have a lot

642
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,359
of memory of the music in the film at all.

643
00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: I look for it because they use that same guy

644
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,960
who just won an Oscar I can't remember his name,

645
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:10,280
long haired guy, and he's very talented, and they use

646
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,440
him and he's very good. So I was listening trying

647
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,760
to pay attention to the soundtrack very little. It wasn't like,

648
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,320
you know, pumping circumstin now. This wasn't a lot.

649
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,039
Speaker 1: And I think I think a lot of Nolan's choices

650
00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:28,199
in this film, for good or for ill, was that

651
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,239
he wanted to avoid a lot of cliches about the

652
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,239
cinematic depictions of the Bronze Age. So everybody speaks with

653
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,039
an American accent, even the British actors do. He cast

654
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,320
you know, he did racially blind casting and that sort

655
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,199
of thing, and when it comes to the music, I

656
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,239
think he wanted to avoid anything that sounded like, you know,

657
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,280
old timey Greek, like you know, people plucking liars and

658
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,280
harps and stuff like that. I think he wanted to

659
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,159
avoid anything that's smacked up cliche.

660
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: Right. He is a Swedish composer. His name is Ludwig Garanzen.

661
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,239
He won for Oppenheimer and you know he's done tanted

662
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,559
his work with Nolan before. He's a very talented composer.

663
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,679
And apparently Nolan said that they he didn't want orchestra,

664
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,519
they didn't want like sounded sound a little too modern. Yeah, well,

665
00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:20,480
I think anyway.

666
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:22,599
Speaker 1: It's not a criticism of the film, but it really

667
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:24,599
struck me later. I was like, wow, I can't remember

668
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:26,800
one musical moment at all.

669
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,599
Speaker 2: I can't. Yes, I agree, and I mean I.

670
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,599
Speaker 1: Guess you could actually see that as a criticism because

671
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:36,119
it plays into a larger criticism. But that I do

672
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:38,719
have about the work, and it's true of Nolan in general,

673
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,239
is that it's cold. His films are cold, and they're clinical,

674
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,639
and there's a certain detachment in his films and in

675
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,519
films like the Batman films or in Memento or in Oppenheimer,

676
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,679
that sort of detachment works well with the story, and

677
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,599
I think it it didn't work well here. This is

678
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:01,119
a story about passion and fire and sex and blood

679
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,960
and music and food, you know, like it, and we

680
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,920
didn't get any of that, and we just got this

681
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,159
sense that all of these people are living a very

682
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,840
dry sort of life. And I don't think that's a

683
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,199
very good way to depict a Bronze Age culture. Like

684
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,199
they weren't. They had a rich life, They had a

685
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,960
very rich cultural life, they had a rich history. They

686
00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,039
and all of that is is kind of kept as

687
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:28,159
minimalist as possible because that is his style of directing.

688
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,679
Speaker 2: Right, I think, all right, here's my take. It's a

689
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,199
very old story. It's like, what three thousand year old story.

690
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,880
That's why the journey feels so special because you know,

691
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:44,079
it took Otis's like a lot of time to go

692
00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:47,239
from front A from point A to point B. So

693
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,119
it it's an old story, so you know it, And

694
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,360
that plays a lot into the whole story that it

695
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,079
took it took him a long time and everything was unknown,

696
00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:02,239
you know, all these lands, all these places. So I

697
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,400
think that's what's special about the story, what he confronted,

698
00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:10,039
what he saw when he went to every island, and

699
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,280
so that I needed that. I think that's part of

700
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,559
the story, is that it's the the absurd, all the

701
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:21,880
things that he saw on every land, that he had

702
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,239
to go through on every land. So I needed that.

703
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,039
I was expecting that. I mean, it's it's what is

704
00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,559
it like twenty four books or something, the region of

705
00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:33,000
the story. Of course, he can't cover everything, but I

706
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,840
felt like he missed a couple of things that I

707
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,000
wish was in the movie. But again, you make choices.

708
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,280
I'm not you know, you choose what you want to show.

709
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:46,840
I felt that not having the gods more present, Yeah,

710
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,719
can we shelve that.

711
00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: Because that's a whole conversation I am planning.

712
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,599
Speaker 2: I missed that part. It felt like the decisions. It

713
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,800
felt to me. We'll talk about it later, but it

714
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,239
felt to me that whatever they were going through, it

715
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,159
was just the weather. Yeah.

716
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the philosophical aspect of how

717
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,920
we handle the gods, but that's a way to earth.

718
00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:10,960
I wanted to get into the form and what we

719
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:13,400
liked and disliked before we start getting into the themes.

720
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,760
I also want to run down almost all of the

721
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:21,800
major performances and talk about course. So uh, And I

722
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,039
struggled in the beginning.

723
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: Can I just say a few more? I struggle in

724
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,599
the beginning with the language. But I went back and

725
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:29,480
forth on that. Let me just let me just finish

726
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:31,400
my thought here. At first, I was like, this is

727
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:34,119
very common length, it's a very common language. It doesn't

728
00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:37,039
feel like a little special. But again it's my brain

729
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,199
going back to all the old versions of the story.

730
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:47,039
It felt a little simple. But then I kept watching

731
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:49,559
the movie. I kept seeing the movie in a movie theater,

732
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:51,960
and I'm like, you know, it makes sense here. I

733
00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:55,880
understand where this is going, the language and the cinematography,

734
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,719
and you know, it's it's a more realistic approach the story,

735
00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:04,719
their conversations and all that. So I guess the language

736
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,840
works here, but and I'll add more to it later.

737
00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:13,320
The common language combined with very bad performances is just

738
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:13,760
threw me.

739
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:19,519
Speaker 1: Off, all right, So I guess we'll get into the

740
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,599
themes then. And I don't think we are going to

741
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:30,960
agree on this, but I he's a very deliberate director.

742
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,360
He makes very deliberate choices. So for him to have

743
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,840
everyone speaking in an American accent. There was a point

744
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,239
to that, and I don't think it had anything to

745
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,159
do with class or anything like that, because as an Englishman,

746
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:45,400
I don't think he thinks. I don't think that's how

747
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,280
he would have approached it, like, oh, the classic characters

748
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,960
have English accents and the non classic characters don't. That

749
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:53,119
isn't what he did. That's what they did in Star Wars.

750
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,880
All the evil people had English accents and all the

751
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,800
good people had American ones. So there's a lot about

752
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,079
this film that diverges from the themes and style of

753
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:14,480
Homer of the original poem. And that isn't because Nolan

754
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:18,159
didn't understand it, or that because he necessarily rejected it.

755
00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:23,400
It's that he is trying to, for lack of a

756
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,119
better term, he's americanizing the story, and he's doing that

757
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:32,119
on purpose. He isn't. I mean, I could be wrong.

758
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:35,760
This is my read. I feel that he cast, he

759
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,480
did racially blindcasting, and then gave everyone an American accent

760
00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:43,840
because he is making a film about America in the

761
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:52,639
present day. When you look at the story about about Okay,

762
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,559
there's so much here that I have to unpack that

763
00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:56,840
we're going to get into the casting as well. So

764
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,920
about halfway through the film, I was having problems with Odysseus.

765
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,440
I was having problems with Matt Damon's performance because I

766
00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:08,320
felt like he wasn't modulating his performance at all. I

767
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,119
felt he was just giving me Matt Damon, and I'm like,

768
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:13,119
I don't forget the sense that this is some great

769
00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:16,000
warrior king. I just feel like some guy from Boston.

770
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:23,119
But exactly again, Lorenzo, I think that's deliberate and well.

771
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:26,880
First off, Nolan said in an interview for The Vulture,

772
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:29,880
he said he cast Matt Damon specifically for that reason.

773
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,719
He knew that people would listen to this guy and

774
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,360
assume that this guy was a good guy because of

775
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,440
the persona. And this is what I want to say

776
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,199
about all of the casting choices, especially when you get

777
00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:46,320
into the major major stars in this film, and it

778
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,599
is a star studded film, they are all being cast

779
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:57,920
because of their persona. So Matt Damon plays a guy.

780
00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:01,800
You have to understand that. And I'm not crazy that

781
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,920
he did it this way. That Nolan has this obsession

782
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,159
with memory and with timelines, and he forced it into

783
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,039
this story so that Odysseus has amnesia, and there's multiple

784
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:14,960
and there's all these flashbacks, and nothing is told in

785
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,320
a linear way, and I kind of got annoyed with

786
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,920
the whole thing. However, when we get to the end

787
00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:25,559
of the movie and he's telling about his regrets about

788
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:29,599
the sack of Troy, you realize that he has been

789
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:32,360
lying to you as a narrator through the entire movie,

790
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,320
and that Odysseus is actually terrible. We get hints of

791
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,719
this throughout the story. We get hints of his he

792
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,840
keeps making these bold mistakes. He shoots the cyclops when

793
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,440
he shouldn't have done that, that sort of thing. But

794
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:47,159
it's not until we get to the end of the

795
00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:50,239
film that we realize, Okay, he has been lying the

796
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,079
whole time. He was bad throughout this whole movie. It's

797
00:42:54,199 --> 00:43:01,000
very notable that you see scenes of his soldiers beheading

798
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:04,800
women and ravishing, you know, ravaging women and burning down

799
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:08,440
you never see him do it. And he tells this

800
00:43:08,599 --> 00:43:11,880
version of the story that holds him up as this

801
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:15,159
moral figure when in fact, he's been lying to you

802
00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:17,840
the whole time, and he has been a dark figure,

803
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,199
a violent figure, and a liar throughout this entire story.

804
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,920
So this, to me is my take on why I

805
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,960
think he's making a commentary about America. I'm not necessarily

806
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,480
saying it's an allegory or anything like that, but he

807
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:41,679
wanted to tell a story about a violent, disruptive culture

808
00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:47,840
that is dying because it's lost its way, because it's

809
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,480
lost its moral center. And to him in twenty twenty six,

810
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:54,880
the best way to shorthand best shorthand way to do

811
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,360
that is to constantly refer to America.

812
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 2: Interesting take, and I.

813
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,519
Speaker 1: Do think that's why so many of the choices he

814
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:07,039
makes are in I don't think all of them work,

815
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:09,000
and we can talk about the gods in fact, do

816
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,119
you want to lead right into that?

817
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: No, I just felt that it's not if you don't

818
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,880
know the stories, not very clear why things are happening.

819
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:18,079
I agree with that it feels like things are happening

820
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:21,000
because it's bed weather or the island is dangerous, but

821
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:24,079
you know, there's a reason why their boats went that way,

822
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:27,039
or because they had that kind of weather, you know,

823
00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:30,159
and because certain things appeared or not.

824
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,199
Speaker 1: It makes some really strange choices here to be sort

825
00:44:35,199 --> 00:44:39,119
of circumspect about the existence of the gods, and in fact,

826
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:43,079
he makes Odysseus out to be basically an atheist, which

827
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:47,960
makes no fucking sense at all. And there are parts

828
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,599
of it where I've I've said this to you when

829
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:52,320
we were leaving the theater, I was like, you know,

830
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,199
I'm not an expert, but I do know this. When

831
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:59,159
you get into Greek drama, Greek poems and Greek plays,

832
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,960
gods are not concepts. They are physical, actual people who

833
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,800
speak and interact and do things. And that was the

834
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,519
belief of the Greeks back then. So when you have

835
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,360
this sort of Judeo Christian idea of invisible gods in

836
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,280
the scott like, no, that's not that's not what they thought.

837
00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:24,400
What I don't like and I don't think characters like

838
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,199
Odysseus would have acted that way, right, That's.

839
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,079
Speaker 2: Why I don't like his choices. Sometimes he makes he

840
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,480
makes these choices, and sometimes they make no sense at all,

841
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:36,360
or they don't they're.

842
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:38,039
Speaker 1: Not Are you talking about Odysseus or Nolan.

843
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm talking about Nolan and Joe Like he pretty much

844
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,320
had no god, but then he decided to have Athena because.

845
00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: You know, well he he If.

846
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: You have Tom Holland, then you have to have Zindan

847
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,360
in the movie, So let's let let's let's get up.

848
00:45:52,440 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: No, no, no, he didn't have Athena, he had no guilt. Well,

849
00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:06,960
Nolan shot it in such a way and that reveal.

850
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:09,480
Listen that I heard that there was a last minute

851
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,320
reveal about who Zendeya really quote unquote really is in

852
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,840
the film. So I was ready for it to happen.

853
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,480
But when it did happen, I was like, Okay, that's

854
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,599
poignan as hell, that's heartbreaking as hell. And he hasn't

855
00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:25,000
been having visions of Athena all this time. He's been

856
00:46:25,039 --> 00:46:27,760
having visions of the girl that got killed at Athena's temple.

857
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,480
She is his guilt embodied, yes, but in the story

858
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,320
is I know. But in the movie, right, he made it,

859
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,840
and that's part of the theme is and this is

860
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,440
why I feel it's really confused, because putting aside Zendeya,

861
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,639
who I really felt by the end of that final

862
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,760
scene where he's confessing about the sack of Troy, I

863
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,039
thought that made it clear that she's not a goddess,

864
00:46:51,159 --> 00:46:52,039
she's his guilt.

865
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,039
Speaker 2: I understood that at the end.

866
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:58,519
Speaker 1: And my point is that doesn't that's fine whatever I

867
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:02,960
don't care. I didn't. But you had a Cyclops, you

868
00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:08,400
had the Lystragonian giants, you had seriously turning them into pigs.

869
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,039
You had skill in charibdis, you know, pulling them out

870
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:15,360
of the open ocean. You had all of these mythological

871
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,840
figures and monsters and witches, and you didn't shy away

872
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,440
from depicting them as monsters and witches. Right, why are

873
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,000
you being weird about the gods? And again, I think

874
00:47:26,039 --> 00:47:27,920
this comes down to he did not want to do

875
00:47:28,039 --> 00:47:30,599
like a Ray Harryhausen Clash of the Titans kind of thing.

876
00:47:30,679 --> 00:47:33,559
He did not want to show Zeus on a mountaintop

877
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,800
or Hermes running or whatever the hell the story required,

878
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:39,840
because from his perspective as a director, that would have

879
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,400
been cheesy as hell. And I get that. But what

880
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,480
we wound up with was a sort of Christian version

881
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:48,840
of the gods, which, you know, the sort of you

882
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,320
never see them, they're mysterious.

883
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: No, that's not it, That's not how the Greeks saw them. No.

884
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,519
I mean, if you if you're going to embrace that

885
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:56,679
kind of story, you have to you have to ignore

886
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,800
how to have gods. You have to acknowledge the gods

887
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,159
I mean, they're the reasons why shit is happening. You know,

888
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,760
the guys are deciding where the where the fuck they

889
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,360
go and who kills them or tried to kill them

890
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,559
or you know, it's it's not that simply.

891
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: I did roll my eyes, like the scenes with Calypso

892
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:17,400
where she's like, you know, serving as a therapist and

893
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:22,079
there's all this thunder happening because if you know the stories,

894
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:25,000
Zeus wanted her to let him go. So that's Zeus

895
00:48:25,079 --> 00:48:25,840
yelling at her.

896
00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:26,559
Speaker 2: Hello.

897
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: I realized we can't have Lawrence Olivier come down holding

898
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,840
a lightning bolt and getting a speech. But that you know,

899
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,400
as a director, you need to come up with better ideas.

900
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,880
That to me was the major failing.

901
00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:40,039
Speaker 2: And certain combinations made no sense to me. She's someone

902
00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:42,480
giving him the lotus flower, which is not the case

903
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:46,079
in the whole way. Now, I mean, yeah, avoiding certain

904
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:49,320
things like there's things that were interesting in the story

905
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,440
that he didn't show, which is fine, it's your choice.

906
00:48:51,559 --> 00:48:56,119
You avoided them. The leather bag situation, what else, things

907
00:48:56,159 --> 00:48:59,639
like that that I wish it was there but wasn't.

908
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,199
That's but it felt to me that the women just

909
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,119
showed up and you know, like I mean, it felt

910
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:09,000
to me that every time there was a woman, you know,

911
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,159
there was not much there. They were just there to

912
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,559
I don't know, support the man, and and.

913
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: I wish they hadn't get that.

914
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,679
Speaker 2: I wish they had explore those characters a little more.

915
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,480
I mean, it is it's not very clear what Calypso

916
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:24,039
is or I don't know. I just that felt to

917
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:24,599
me that.

918
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: I'll grant you that. I think again, the Calypso here,

919
00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:31,960
this scenario was I don't know why we're being so

920
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:35,199
circumspect here she is a se nymph, like she's obviously

921
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,199
got him under a certain amount of control. Like why

922
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,440
are we pretending that she's just some gorgeous woman fishing?

923
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:44,480
But I do want to see this actually makes a

924
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,800
good segue into the point about casting. Why don't we

925
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,280
take a short break now when we get back, we'll

926
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,960
talk about that. We're back talking about the Odyssey, and

927
00:49:57,039 --> 00:49:59,519
now we're going to talk about the casting. Lorenzo doesn't

928
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:02,719
like of these actors, so you need to take all

929
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,360
that with a grain of salt. But I do want

930
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,920
to point out a few things here. As I noted,

931
00:50:09,639 --> 00:50:12,679
he cast Matt Damon because he knew the audience would

932
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,360
assume that Matt Damon was a good guy doing moral things,

933
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,159
telling the truth. He's essentially the Jimmy Stewart of his generation.

934
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,280
He's that kind of actor where the audience is on

935
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:28,360
board immediately. Similarly, you can look at Charlie's m M.

936
00:50:29,039 --> 00:50:32,639
You don't need to explain too much about what's going

937
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:36,960
on there because it's Charlie's. She looks like that, and

938
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,840
all you need to do is say he's stuck with

939
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,719
this stunningly gorgeous creature who will not let him go.

940
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,159
Don't get me wrong, I don't love that Calypso wasn't

941
00:50:46,159 --> 00:50:50,639
explained better, but I am explaining his casting choices. So

942
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,000
when you cast Shirley's Theren, you don't really need to

943
00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:56,320
explain too much about what's going on there. She looked

944
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,239
fucking amazing, and this shows up.

945
00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: It is a your perfume campaign.

946
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,159
Speaker 1: I mean she was in nets and rags and she looked, Oh,

947
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:06,840
it's just explecting amazing.

948
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:08,519
Speaker 2: It's der commercial right now.

949
00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:13,159
Speaker 1: Similarly, Lupita and Yango I gasped the first time they

950
00:51:13,199 --> 00:51:15,920
showed her because you know she's I already know what

951
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,320
Lupita looks like but they had her all done up

952
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:24,000
like a queen and jewelry and everything. Again, you cast

953
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:27,719
Lapita and Youngo in that role because A she's undeniably

954
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,719
beautiful and B she just gives you regal. She looks

955
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,360
like a queen. And when you put her in those

956
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,079
like you know, old style Greek jewelry and every you know,

957
00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:40,920
Bronze era jewelry and fashions, and I realized that none

958
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,800
of that stuff was accurate. She just feels like she

959
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,039
belongs there. She looks like she belongs in that world.

960
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: But that that was my point. Yeah, my previous point

961
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,119
is that these women are were just gorgeous women.

962
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true of well, I yes, I

963
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,159
don't think that's true of seriously, and I don't don't

964
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:01,320
think that's true of Penelope.

965
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,079
Speaker 2: Penelope was an exception because she's the major exception, well

966
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:08,079
because of an Anne Hathway's incredible performance.

967
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: Yes, Anne Hathaway won for the Ages.

968
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:12,519
Speaker 2: Man.

969
00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: That was like I kept thinking of, and I mean

970
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,559
this as a compliment, when her and Matt Damon were together.

971
00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:22,719
First off, I was like, wow, look at those middle

972
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,079
aged faces, man, And I do like that. Nolan really

973
00:52:27,159 --> 00:52:29,320
lingered on that, you know, lingered on the fact because

974
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,440
they are playing characters who are probably slightly older than

975
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:36,480
they actually are. Because she's the mother to uh Telemachus.

976
00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:39,000
Well no, granted she's old enough to be mother to

977
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:42,880
an eighteen year old, but it felt like I was

978
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,480
watching like Sean Connery and Katherine Hepburn. It just felt

979
00:52:46,639 --> 00:52:49,639
old school, and with her especially, it just felt like

980
00:52:49,679 --> 00:52:53,679
an old school diva turn. She ate.

981
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,159
Speaker 2: She was phenomena. I love.

982
00:52:57,559 --> 00:52:59,119
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, go ahead, No, she was.

983
00:52:59,079 --> 00:53:03,039
Speaker 2: Phenomena because she was able to convey all the emotions,

984
00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:05,960
all she was going through as a mother, as a wife,

985
00:53:06,039 --> 00:53:08,159
and all that, all the queen as the queen, all

986
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:11,320
the waiting, all the stress to deal with those suitors,

987
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,840
and all that. She did a phenomenal I think, I

988
00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:18,039
think you have to do that. You have to embody

989
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:20,519
the story. You have to embody the character so that

990
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:22,800
it becomes believable that you look at that person and

991
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,800
you believe that that person went through hell, went through

992
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,480
a lot of stuff. Well not necessarily him, but went

993
00:53:28,519 --> 00:53:30,880
through a lot of stuff. And you look at her

994
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,800
and you can tell. And when she opens her mouth,

995
00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:34,599
she she does it.

996
00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: She doesn't about her performance is that she spends most

997
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,760
about whispering yes, and but whispering with an intensity because

998
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,559
she is intense and she is angry. But at the

999
00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:49,719
same token, she is extremely vulnerable and scared.

1000
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean she has to be behind a wall.

1001
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,559
Speaker 1: So she's fierce in her line deliveries. But she's also timid.

1002
00:53:56,599 --> 00:53:59,119
She manages a timidity at the same time. It's such

1003
00:53:59,119 --> 00:54:02,440
a well modulate to performance. And honestly, if she doesn't

1004
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,960
get an Oscar for that, that's crazy to me.

1005
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:06,519
Speaker 2: She should at least be nominated.

1006
00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:10,159
Speaker 1: She will be, I mean, and Matt Past will be nominated.

1007
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is anyway, But she she is phenomenal. Let

1008
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,280
me just say one more thing. I was looking at

1009
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:17,800
her and I was like, wow, you came a long

1010
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:18,719
way as an actress.

1011
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,119
Speaker 1: She really really did. She really really really did. She

1012
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,719
is like a standing testament to movie stars who become

1013
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,559
better over time. Yes, who allowed their movie stardom to

1014
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,400
make them better actors, and she is a prime example

1015
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:35,639
of that.

1016
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean truly there and performance was you know, delivered.

1017
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: It was this week Emily Wilson, the translator of the

1018
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,840
the Odyssey, who you know, the right wingers hate and

1019
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,760
who Nolan. Nolan used her translation for his version of

1020
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,320
the script. She came out with an article in the

1021
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:02,000
London Review of Books this Week and it was nasty

1022
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:04,559
and there was a lot of blowback to it. She

1023
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:07,199
was highly highly critical of the film, and a lot

1024
00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:10,960
of people felt it was nasty of her to be

1025
00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:13,760
so critical of a film like She apparently had sold

1026
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,199
a million copies of her book after an old announced

1027
00:55:16,199 --> 00:55:17,639
that he was doing the movie, so a lot of

1028
00:55:17,639 --> 00:55:19,960
people felt like, well, you're trashing a film that made you,

1029
00:55:20,159 --> 00:55:24,280
that is making you rich. I don't really want to

1030
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,960
get into too much about her piece. I do think

1031
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:31,920
she was looking at it, obviously from the perspective of

1032
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,480
a scholar of that era and that material, and I

1033
00:55:36,519 --> 00:55:38,679
don't think that actually makes for a very interesting film

1034
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,079
review because you're just going to list all the things

1035
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:43,199
that they got wrong, which is essentially what she did.

1036
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,760
But she did talk a lot about Charlie's theron being

1037
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,880
a therapist, and I was like that one, I will

1038
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,239
grant you. I don't like those scenes at all. There's

1039
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,239
no sense of mystery there and she just talks like

1040
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,800
she's in you know, southern California meeting you were in

1041
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,519
her office, like it just didn't be a ancient or

1042
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:04,039
weird or fucked up the way it should have.

1043
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: Been, because Nolan was obsessed with him not remembering things

1044
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,400
and she was there to try to get those information. No,

1045
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,800
she's greedy, she is selfish to the she you know,

1046
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,719
she kept him on the island so that she could

1047
00:56:18,119 --> 00:56:21,159
it's a rape essentially, so she could screw him for

1048
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:21,920
seven years.

1049
00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 1: And all of that is tossed out the ways because

1050
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:25,119
she's so gorgeous.

1051
00:56:25,199 --> 00:56:27,639
Speaker 2: That's the other thing. There's no sex in the movie.

1052
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: I agree with, and that was something Emily Wilson pointed out.

1053
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,079
And again, yet they lead such dry lives in those stories,

1054
00:56:34,199 --> 00:56:36,960
just that no one enjoys food, no one enjoys drinking,

1055
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,559
no one fucks, no one sings.

1056
00:56:39,159 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: And there's no I don't need to see sex scenes,

1057
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,400
but I but sex was a very important part why

1058
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,159
these men did the thing they did. Yeah, I think.

1059
00:56:48,119 --> 00:56:52,119
Speaker 1: A Calypso sex scene was probably required. Yes, And the

1060
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:55,000
fact that because her time together is completely sexless, and

1061
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,400
he looks like he's about nine hundred years old in

1062
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:58,000
those scenes.

1063
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:01,199
Speaker 2: I mean he lived with Circey for a while. I

1064
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,920
mean none of that. I understand this choice.

1065
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:06,639
Speaker 1: But but and he yeah, he slept with her, he

1066
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,119
slept with Princess Nasoga, right, he slept with everybody. Yeah,

1067
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:16,079
they don't. And again this comes again. It's all about

1068
00:57:16,159 --> 00:57:18,960
him being an unreliable narrator. So, for all we know,

1069
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,599
the Odysseus of the movie was going around and fucking

1070
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:24,760
all these people, but he had a story to tell

1071
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,719
about his returning to his beloved wife.

1072
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,199
Speaker 2: So and he didn't.

1073
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm giving Nolan too much credit here,

1074
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,880
but but that I do understand the idea that we're

1075
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,719
not going to show how terrible Odysseus is until the

1076
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,719
very end of the movie, which is that's silly because

1077
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:43,199
it's his obsession with timelines.

1078
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:44,119
Speaker 2: It's not a journey.

1079
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,119
Speaker 1: I uh huh. I agree with that.

1080
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,719
Speaker 2: If you think of a journey, people go through things

1081
00:57:49,079 --> 00:57:53,159
right and betrayal, you know, fucking out the people, screwing up,

1082
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,920
you know, betraying your your your your you know, your

1083
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,880
people whatever, and then you come back. So this way

1084
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,960
is just very black and white. Okay, well I'm just

1085
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,159
going here, Oh my god, the weather and then you know,

1086
00:58:03,239 --> 00:58:05,159
oh my god, you know, our boat blah blah blah,

1087
00:58:05,159 --> 00:58:08,599
and I'm back and it's it's that's not what a

1088
00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:12,000
journey is about. Yeah, the whole story. I mean, the

1089
00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,559
reason why this story is so wonderful is because he

1090
00:58:15,679 --> 00:58:18,679
go through so much, you know, there's so much, so much,

1091
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,000
a lot of challenge, you know, a lot of things happen, right,

1092
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:24,159
and that he has to go through with his people,

1093
00:58:24,199 --> 00:58:28,519
with his you know, and I don't know, it felt

1094
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:32,320
a little light to me. That's what I meant by

1095
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,760
the language. Also, you combine the language and the performance.

1096
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,559
I thought the I mean, I absolutely hated Tom Holland.

1097
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:39,679
He eats horrible in the movie.

1098
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: I do think Tom Holland and Sunday are the two

1099
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:46,400
weakest performances in the film. I don't think they were

1100
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:47,719
up to the material. Well, first of all, I don't

1101
00:58:47,719 --> 00:58:49,880
think the material asked much of either of them, But

1102
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,719
that was probably Nolan realizing that he couldn't ass much

1103
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,159
of either of them. I don't hate them as much

1104
00:58:55,159 --> 00:58:56,880
as you do, but I agree with you that they're

1105
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,760
not actors of any great No, not really. And and

1106
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,360
Tom Holland just has two or three expressions that he

1107
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:05,559
cycles throughout that.

1108
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,039
Speaker 2: And he's he sounds like a teenager number one, and

1109
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:10,119
I know the character is not about tag, but anyway,

1110
00:59:10,239 --> 00:59:13,079
there's a scene with when end Hathaway's.

1111
00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:16,679
Speaker 1: Like showing him showing you her guts.

1112
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,519
Speaker 2: He's just staring at her the whole time, like what

1113
00:59:19,679 --> 00:59:22,360
is going on? Dude? Your mom is talking to you,

1114
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,559
yell at you have some reaction here. And the same

1115
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:28,599
thing with India. There's a scene where she she's looking

1116
00:59:28,639 --> 00:59:31,639
at him and some some something about going back home

1117
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:34,360
with Matt Damon. There's a scene a very serious thing,

1118
00:59:34,719 --> 00:59:37,320
emotional thing, and then she acts like she's pouting.

1119
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: She looks, she pounce a lot. She resorts to that

1120
00:59:42,559 --> 00:59:45,519
pou a lot. And it was in euphoria. It's in

1121
00:59:45,559 --> 00:59:47,519
the Spider Man movies, like like.

1122
00:59:47,559 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 2: He he's expressing I don't know, I forget the scene,

1123
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,159
but he's talking think about going back and it was

1124
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:55,679
time to go back or something like that, and she

1125
00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:57,679
pounced and I'm like what.

1126
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,599
Speaker 1: Anyway, However, there was a scene I think it's when

1127
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:03,880
they're leaving Hades, which I have to admit that scene

1128
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,679
in Hades was fucking stunning with all the black sand

1129
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:09,800
and everything, and sin On speaking, I know you didn't

1130
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,719
like Elliott Page in this movie. But I thought sin

1131
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,760
On was fucking stunning in that scene, and I thought

1132
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,119
his performance was amazing in that scene. Yeah, I also think, again,

1133
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:24,880
why did you cast a very slightly built trans masculine

1134
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:29,239
man for this role. That's why. I mean, people all thought,

1135
01:00:29,719 --> 01:00:31,760
all the right wingers thought that that he had cast

1136
01:00:32,039 --> 01:00:34,920
Elliott as Achilles or something like that, But no, he

1137
01:00:35,039 --> 01:00:38,760
cast him as you know, the one that Odyssey has

1138
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,559
fucked over, the one that got fucked over by everybody,

1139
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:47,480
the one who clearly wasn't suited for battle, right, That's

1140
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:50,920
why he cast him. That's and to me, that's very

1141
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,760
interesting casting. It's very thoughtful casting. So I get all

1142
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:56,519
of that, and I appreciate it.

1143
01:00:56,639 --> 01:00:59,079
Speaker 2: I felt that the performances had no weight.

1144
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't agree. I think Damon was excellent.

1145
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,599
I think Hathaway was excellent. I think I was disappointed

1146
01:01:07,639 --> 01:01:11,039
with John leg I think Samantha Morton was fucking amazing.

1147
01:01:11,199 --> 01:01:14,079
You really weretant you didn't think Lego Ozama was good.

1148
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,400
He's gonna get nominated. I thought it was probably when

1149
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,039
I thought he was amazing.

1150
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:20,719
Speaker 2: He didn't know what to do with Mia Goss. I

1151
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,920
mean she has a Yeah, he didn't know what to

1152
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:23,199
do with it.

1153
01:01:23,239 --> 01:01:24,679
Speaker 1: He didn't know what to do with her. And I

1154
01:01:24,719 --> 01:01:27,119
loved her the little bits of her that I saw.

1155
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,639
I love her the character. There's more to the character. Well,

1156
01:01:30,679 --> 01:01:32,719
I know he hangs all the maids exactly. Well, they're

1157
01:01:32,719 --> 01:01:34,400
not going to show that. We're not going to show

1158
01:01:34,599 --> 01:01:36,559
because he's you know, they don't want him to be

1159
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:37,880
too much of a monster.

1160
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: Samantha Morton was awesome.

1161
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: She was That scene was very disturbing.

1162
01:01:42,119 --> 01:01:44,599
Speaker 2: That's what I was expecting more of Nolan in twenty

1163
01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:47,079
twenty six with all the technology and everything we have

1164
01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:48,239
available today.

1165
01:01:48,719 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: Like when she's she's molding their faces.

1166
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 2: Turning them into pigs. That was gorgeous to look at.

1167
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,079
It disturbing, disturbing, but I was expecting more of that.

1168
01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:02,800
I mean, come on, yeah, do more of that. But no,

1169
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,920
I thought it was awesome and she was really really good.

1170
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,559
Speaker 1: She was very good and I liked that. Again. I

1171
01:02:10,599 --> 01:02:12,320
really want to go back and watch this film a

1172
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,320
second time, because you know, he waits until the end

1173
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,559
of the film to show to you that Odysseus is

1174
01:02:18,559 --> 01:02:22,599
actually a terrible person. But that's how she was reacting

1175
01:02:22,639 --> 01:02:25,400
to him. I mean, her reaction to him and his

1176
01:02:25,559 --> 01:02:31,960
men was understandable and relatable if you think about the

1177
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,400
world that she lives in, and you know, again, if

1178
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,440
you go back and watch it a second time. I

1179
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,199
think there are a lot of hints throughout the film

1180
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:44,079
that the story you're not getting is not completely true.

1181
01:02:44,119 --> 01:02:46,599
And I think that is a major scene, because you

1182
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,280
if you believe everything that Odysseus is telling you up

1183
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,000
to that point, and if you believe that his men

1184
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:54,880
were very friendly and nice to her when they first

1185
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,039
got there, then she's acting crazy. What the hell's wrong

1186
01:02:57,079 --> 01:02:59,159
with that bitch. You get to the end of the

1187
01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:01,119
story and you find out its and his men were

1188
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,679
horrible and monsters and they were violating Zeus's law everywhere

1189
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:10,119
they went. Her response actually makes much. It's protective, it's correct,

1190
01:03:10,239 --> 01:03:13,400
it's the right way for her to act. So I

1191
01:03:14,039 --> 01:03:17,599
do think it was interesting and I think it's an

1192
01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:21,079
excellent film that is going to get a fuck ton

1193
01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:25,840
of Oscar nominations. Of course, I think many of those

1194
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:32,440
nominations will be warranted. I really think a Hathaway, Damon Legozamo,

1195
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:33,920
they are all getting.

1196
01:03:34,119 --> 01:03:36,119
Speaker 2: And Samantha probably Samantha.

1197
01:03:35,719 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: Morton is definitely going to get one.

1198
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: I thought Robert Pattinson was okay.

1199
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought he was great. Again, going back to

1200
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,119
the casting thing. If you want some snively little shithead

1201
01:03:46,159 --> 01:03:49,519
they can't trust and you are waiting for someone to

1202
01:03:49,599 --> 01:03:53,760
kill him, you cast Robert Pattinson. Everybody he cast was

1203
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,280
cast for those reasons because they're movie stars and they

1204
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,639
already come with baggage. And he was using that in

1205
01:03:59,679 --> 01:04:02,079
the store in a way that I thought was very smart.

1206
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:06,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I feel like, don't. I mean, now

1207
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,400
you know, Yeah, it's like going to the supermarket. You

1208
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,239
buy certain items because you you you know you can

1209
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,280
rely on them for certain things. I don't think that's

1210
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,960
acting to me. That's not acting to me. It's picking

1211
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:20,840
people who you know you can rely on. But that's

1212
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:21,519
not acting to me.

1213
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about their acting. I'm talking about their casting.

1214
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: Well that's what I mean.

1215
01:04:27,199 --> 01:04:30,639
Speaker 1: You good casting is when you were casting movie stars.

1216
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,440
You cast people according to how you know the audience

1217
01:04:33,519 --> 01:04:34,320
is going to react.

1218
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 2: Why. I think the keyword he's movie star, they're probably

1219
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,320
that's the mistake in casting them. I have to say,

1220
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,119
I absolutely love all right. Yeah, we disagree on this

1221
01:04:43,719 --> 01:04:47,360
I absolutely loved him, Himish Patel whatever, he was very good.

1222
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,360
I thought his expressions, his loyalty, it was just heartbreaking.

1223
01:04:52,599 --> 01:04:55,480
I thought that he did a phenomenal job. I really

1224
01:04:55,559 --> 01:04:56,400
liked his performance.

1225
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind seeing him get nominated as well. But no,

1226
01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:03,159
Zendeia and Tom Holland absolutely not, absolutely not.

1227
01:05:03,199 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 2: Terrible, terrible, absolutely terrible. Sometimes you don't know if it's

1228
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,559
a Dune movie or whatever the hell she doing because

1229
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:13,039
it's the same expression, the same poddy.

1230
01:05:12,719 --> 01:05:14,519
Speaker 1: Oh right, yeah, she pounded all the way through doing

1231
01:05:14,559 --> 01:05:16,880
as well, Yeah, it's her thing, it's her thing.

1232
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,159
Speaker 2: And then why is she there? Because Tom Holland is there.

1233
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:23,119
They have to work together, they can't be separated anyway.

1234
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,760
He was terrible. He was really really bad. That guy

1235
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,199
can't do anything but Spider Man.

1236
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't think he's He was quite as bad as

1237
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,480
Lorenzo was making it out to be terrible. This is

1238
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:37,440
a great film with some questionable choices that are worthy

1239
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,800
of being discussed. But I don't agree with Lorenzo's take

1240
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,400
on everyone being terrible in this movie. And I want

1241
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,320
to hear what you guys all think. Yes, so let's

1242
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:48,719
do you anything else you want to add.

1243
01:05:50,039 --> 01:05:54,679
Speaker 2: The locations were absolutely gorgeous, and it's an interesting take.

1244
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,039
It misses a lot of stuff I don't I didn't

1245
01:05:58,079 --> 01:06:01,280
hate the movie. I thought the movie had an interesting

1246
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:06,559
take and uh, but some important parts were missing and

1247
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:12,480
most of the performances were terrible. That's mighty all right, then,

1248
01:06:12,519 --> 01:06:14,320
we'd love to hear what you guys think. We'll be

1249
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,599
back next We'll be back tomorrow with a bittercut movie club.

1250
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:20,559
We're watching Blue Moon, and we'll be back next week

1251
01:06:20,559 --> 01:06:22,960
with whatever crosses our eyes or crosses our desk. Until then,

1252
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:24,960
take care of yourselves. Love you Meana, by bye bye