WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.799 Meaning a light. Man like this man letting butterfly flapping 2 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:07.440 and wing. They've down in a forest. 3 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:10.240 Man, it gonna cause the tree fall, letting five thousand 4 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:10.839 miles away. 5 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:12.919 Man, nobody seen it. Nobody else. 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:17.679 See. 7 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.039 You don't need no man like you followed another story and. 8 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:24.320 You got back in fact that man. 9 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:26.239 Man, don't black to nag on the panel. 10 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:35.960 Man, you don't matter man, I know anyway. All right, 11 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:38.000 Alex Petkis, welcome back to the Jay Burden Show. 12 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.280 How you doing man, Great to be back, mister Burden. 13 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:41.439 I'm well, how are you. 14 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.679 I'm doing quite well. I'm excited to have you back on. 15 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.039 Not simply because the last episode did well, people liked it, 16 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:53.960 they wanted you back, but also because we left off 17 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:58.439 halfway through the story. Right, We left off just before 18 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.399 Caesar assumed his role as a preech over. You know 19 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:06.640 what is modern day Spain? And I'm gonna go ahead 20 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.319 and assume most people have listened to the last one. 21 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:12.599 If not, you can. It's easy to find the last 22 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.519 time I talked to Alex where we went through the 23 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.319 early life of Caesar, and now we're continuing on with 24 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:20.079 the narrative. 25 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:26.920 Yes, well, so we left off with the Caesar was 26 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:32.040 elected praetor, he causes a ruffle with the Catalinarian conspiracy. 27 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:35.599 I don't think he's quite left the city limits yet, 28 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:38.159 so maybe we should start with how he gets out 29 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:45.680 of Rome and the challenges he faced there. So Caesar 30 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:51.560 is he's always been a promising politician. He's always been 31 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:57.400 able to convince people to take bets on him, financial 32 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:03.959 and otherwise. And Caesar is in a crushing load of 33 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.519 debt right now. That's kind of important for the story 34 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:12.439 because the way that you I think we talk about 35 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:17.159 this last time, the way that you get elected offices, 36 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.280 you spend a ton of money, as always in a 37 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:24.319 semi democratic system, and then somehow you make it back. 38 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:26.800 And he's hoping to make it back as a provincial 39 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.080 governor of Spain. But he's he's under so much debt 40 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.240 that his creditors don't want to let him leave town. 41 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.479 And you know, if he can't leave down, well, he 42 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:40.280 can't pay him back Kenny. So he eventually gets his 43 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.280 friend Crassus, who's who's his political patron. I'm not sure 44 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.360 how much we talked about Crassis last time, but Crassus 45 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:51.560 is the richest man in Rome. He Caesar learned so 46 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:53.840 much from Crassus. I did a whole series on Crassus 47 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.520 and came to appreciate how big of an impact Crassus 48 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:03.240 had on Caesar politically, like stylistically, you know, recruiting men 49 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:10.240 from outside the typical political elite populism, sort of crafty 50 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:17.479 measured populism. But but so Krasis eventually stands surety for Caesar. 51 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.960 He's personally guarantees the loans that the the debtors are 52 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.439 or the creditors are clamoring Caesar repay before he leaves town. 53 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.520 And Caesar manages to escape and gets off to his 54 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:36.439 provincial assignment at last in Spain. So I'll see what 55 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:38.479 what's of interest in Spain. Well, when he's in Spain, 56 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:46.479 he finds some unruly tribes to you know, peace, keep around, 57 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:53.319 does a little campaigning Lusitania or Western Hispania, Portugal, southern 58 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.919 southern Spain, and comes back. 59 00:03:59.000 --> 00:03:59.800 Does he come back early? 60 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:02.800 He comes back sort of more or less on time, 61 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:07.000 after having a pretty successful year as governor in Spain, 62 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:12.439 you know, settling disputes and the typical thing, but with 63 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:15.840 a military victory under his belt, and he gets the 64 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:20.759 Senate to approve him for a triumph, which, as you're aware, 65 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.680 is the highest honor that any Roman could hope for. Really, 66 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:28.560 it's even better than being consoles. Plenty of consuls never 67 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.360 had a triumph and wish they had. But you know, 68 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:35.079 once these opportunities don't come very often. See the Ultimate 69 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.839 Glory and Caesar. If he gets a triumph after just 70 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:44.800 being preeter, it's like his political career has made. Everybody's 71 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.959 going to know his name and his face if they 72 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.600 didn't already. But the problem that he's facing now is 73 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:55.279 he he wants to run for console for the upcoming year, 74 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:01.120 and technically you have to make your application to be 75 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.000 the candidate a candidate for consul in the city limits 76 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.000 of Rome. But if you enter the city limits of 77 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.439 Rome before you triumph, then you can have a triumph. 78 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.839 Because a triumph is a ceremonial crossing of the boundary 79 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.120 from outside the city into the city. And that that 80 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.439 crossing is a really important moment religiously and politically because 81 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:23.920 it means you're you're legally laying down your imperium, your 82 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.600 your supreme power that a general has, you know, because 83 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:31.519 a general out in the field can execute Roman citizens, 84 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:36.759 you know, uh do whatever he wants without any penalty. 85 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:39.759 It's like he's got the life and death power over 86 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:41.959 his troops, which is important for discipline. 87 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:43.000 And so. 88 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:47.759 He gets the Senate to vote him an exception to 89 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.279 be able to apply for the consulship in absentia, laying 90 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:56.199 a pattern that that will become very ominous later in 91 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.439 his career, so that he can have but have it 92 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:06.959 both ways. And his enemies, Cato, the most vociferous among them, 93 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.759 who's already, as we talked about last time, got his 94 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:14.079 eye on Caesar as a tyrant on the make Kato 95 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.680 blocks him. I think that the Senate was willing technically, 96 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:25.839 and they didn't actually formally ratify the motion to let 97 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:31.560 Caesar run for console and absentia, and so Cato philibusters. Essentially, 98 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.399 he runs out the clock. It's one thing that he 99 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:35.959 was really good at is just talking on and on 100 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.040 and on, and once the sun goes down, then meeting 101 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:41.720 adjourns for the day and you got to wait till 102 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.120 the next day, and all kinds of obstructionism you can 103 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.639 do in a republican constitution. And so Cato's filibustering. He's 104 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.040 trying to make sure that Caesar has to basically choose 105 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.079 between getting his triumph or running for Console for the 106 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:59.759 next year, because the deadline is fast approaching, and I 107 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:01.240 think everybody was betting. 108 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.720 That Caesar would. 109 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:08.279 Would just wait, that Cato would succeed in slowing him 110 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.720 down for a year and kind of make him cool 111 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:17.000 as heels in private practice. But Caesar very ostentatiously, just 112 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:23.439 as soon as the the kind of deadline is imminent, 113 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.800 he just crosses into the city limits and foregoes the triumph, 114 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:30.319 which was a shock to everybody because, you know, for 115 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.720 the reason we discussed, Caesar didn't want to wait a 116 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:37.600 year to become console. He had a plan and he 117 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:39.879 kind of stuck it in Kato's face. 118 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:40.199 Mute. 119 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:46.079 Yeah, Kato won the battle in the sense that Caesar 120 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.439 didn't get his triumph, but Caesar kind of won the war, 121 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:52.839 and that you know, he saw power as a route 122 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.439 to get other triumphs in the future, and he knew 123 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.319 that he could get elected consul, and and so that's 124 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.680 what he did. He just didn't want to wait a year. 125 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.959 Press fast forward, let's get let's get it done with. 126 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.839 It's just an honor, which I love that story. It 127 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.639 just shows how how how how much Caesar knows what 128 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:19.639 he wants and how quickly he wants to how that 129 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:21.360 moment where he was standing in front of the statue 130 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:23.519 of Alexander the Great. You know, he's got to get 131 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.920 serious now, Like if he really wants to achieve something, 132 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.720 he can't pitdle around, you know, racking up badges, merit 133 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:32.480 badges for his sash. 134 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.879 He's he's he's got to be focused. And I think 135 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:36.480 that's a good indication of it. 136 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.759 So several things there. One, of course, you're completely right, 137 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.039 and I love this moment as sort of a character 138 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:51.919 study in miniature of Caesar. Right, he is giving up honor, right, 139 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.399 glory again, right, the biggest gold star of them all, 140 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:01.600 a triumph for power and ultimately, well, you know, we'll 141 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.879 see this. There's more where that comes from. Right, He 142 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.960 you know, is later receives that and many other honors. 143 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:13.279 But I think it's sort of this perfect snapshot in 144 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.399 a similar but slightly different way as in the Execution 145 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.159 of the Pirates who who you know, captured him for 146 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.759 a year or so, right where you see these little 147 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:25.519 incidents which kind of offer you a view of the man. 148 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:30.200 But to backtrack, ever, so slightly. And I don't have 149 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:31.919 a citation on this, It's been a while since I've 150 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:37.759 gone through the primary sources. But to what degree did 151 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:44.360 Caesar's cratorship in Spain relieve him from debt? Was he 152 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.559 able to use sort of his winnings to get people 153 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.679 off his back or was that something that was sort 154 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:52.559 of plaguing him throughout his entire career. 155 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:57.960 Well, we don't really know any details about this. I 156 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.000 think it's likely that he he you know, captured some 157 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:05.279 slaves that he was able to you know, captured prisoners, 158 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.159 he was able to sell his slaves, or did some 159 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:13.200 plundering at least paid them down enough to get them 160 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.639 office back. But no, I as far as we know, 161 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.279 he's probably going to take out an even bigger loan 162 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:24.000 to become consul, and Crassus is just going to guarantee 163 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:29.799 it again or personally underwrite it. And this isn't his 164 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.159 only run in with bad debt. You know, he takes 165 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:36.159 out a lot of loans to run for the office 166 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.399 of pont effects Maximus. This is in the same year 167 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.799 that he was elected praetor he gets selected you know, 168 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:47.120 the chief Magistracy or the chief Priesthood of Rome, and 169 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.679 he's going because these are elected at that time. Funny enough, 170 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:54.759 and as he's going out to the voting grounds for 171 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.600 the pont Effects Maximus election, you know, he leaves the 172 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:01.600 house and he tells his mom, well, mom, either I'm 173 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.039 going to come back pont Effects Maximus, or you're never 174 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:07.080 gonna see me again, because I'm gonna If I lose, 175 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:10.120 I'm screwed and I have to skip town forever because 176 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.240 you know, the debtors are just gonna eat me alive 177 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:13.159 or the creditors. 178 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:14.039 And so. 179 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.879 Now his big financial win ends up being the Gallic campaign, 180 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.919 which is fabulously lucrative as a matter of fact. But 181 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:27.279 I'm not sure about the Spain incident. 182 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.120 So at this point, right, we sort of need to 183 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:39.320 address the triumvirate and also you know his consulship. These 184 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.360 of course they are linked. So I'm curious to what 185 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:49.120 degree is the triumvirate formalized? You know, does to seizear 186 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.559 walk in and say, hey, these are my two buddies. 187 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.519 We are now the triumvirate. This is who in charge? 188 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.879 Who is in charge? Or is it a description of 189 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.200 sort of a as you could say, informal collusion. 190 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:06.879 Well, the technical term that was used by contemporaries was 191 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.240 the three headed monster, which is to say it was 192 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:15.440 not actually a formal, a legal agreement in any way 193 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.000 it was. It was an informal kind of back room, 194 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:24.559 smoke filled cigar room handshake agreement. But to what is 195 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.120 the the triumvir or the first Triumvirate. Well, you've got 196 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.919 in Rome two incredibly powerful men, one of his crasses 197 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:39.360 who we mentioned, and one of them is Pompey. Caesar's 198 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.679 sort of they're friendly at this point, and they get 199 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.000 more friendly before they have a falling out. These are 200 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.919 the two greatest men in Rome that the Crassus has 201 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:55.080 wealth and political influence and political savvy. Pompey has military 202 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.159 glory and by this time even more wealth because he's 203 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.840 just come back from the East from his grain and campaigns, 204 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.360 defeated Mithridates and you know, desecrated the temple at Jerusalem, 205 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.360 possibly on accident, but possibly he knew what he was doing. 206 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.799 And very rich. 207 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.639 But they both have needs, they both have big needs. 208 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:19.200 Crassis is getting blocked in the Senate because he is 209 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:24.279 an investor in some tax farming operations. Some Equestrian businessmen 210 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.440 like promised that they would, you know, return to the 211 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.840 Senate a huge sum of money from collecting taxes in 212 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:35.080 the East, and they realized that the East has just 213 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:38.600 been utterly ravaged and plundered by Pompey's campaigns and there's 214 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.600 just no way that they can make up the shortfall. 215 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.159 So they're trying to get They're trying to get their 216 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:49.879 debt to knock down so they can come up short 217 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.320 on the contract. Otherwise they're going to be ruined and 218 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.240 they therefore Crasses is maybe not gonna be ruined, but 219 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.799 going to be hurting financially. Crass is trying to champion 220 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.759 these questrian businessmen, but it's not happening. Cato and the 221 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:08.639 Optimates are filibustering and doing their obstructionism thing. Pompey needs 222 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:13.320 his veterans resettled. He's got all these men counting on 223 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.440 him to give him pots of land after their successful service, 224 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:23.360 loyal service to him and to roam. He's getting blocked there. 225 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.960 He's also got all these arrangements that he's made in 226 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.039 the East with client kings and various states and put 227 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.120 down law codes and just kind of like his signature 228 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:38.320 piece of legislation which was very well done and well 229 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.679 thought through, and it happened to benefit him immensely, the 230 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.960 arrangements that he set up with all these city states 231 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.200 and client kingdoms that are now his clients. And he's 232 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.840 getting blocked there too by Cato and the Optimists. You know, 233 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:55.559 they're doing the typical thing that Cato and the Optimates do. 234 00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:00.240 The Conservatives. They don't want any man rising above the 235 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:04.159 rest of the poppies, and so Crassis and Pompey both 236 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:09.960 kind of get the shaft politically that this is going 237 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:15.080 on as Caesar is running for Console. Maybe this is 238 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.360 one of the reasons why Caesar wanted to be Console 239 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:19.000 that year and not to wait another year, because he 240 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.320 saw this opportunity, he saw the stars aligning. Caesar is 241 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.720 not really a powerful man at this point. He's promising, 242 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:30.120 he's got talent, he's got a good patron. But he 243 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.000 so he makes a deal with basically with Pompey and Crassus. 244 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:34.960 You could call it a duum for it. It's like 245 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:39.759 twin towers and then a little bridge, a little tightrope 246 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:43.639 with the guy walking between them, and that's Caesar. But 247 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:45.679 what he does, what he will have that he can 248 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.639 bring to the table is executive power. As console, he'll 249 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.159 be able to pass through legislation that favors both of them. 250 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.759 And the only thing that he really asks of them 251 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.360 is and goes to show that Pompey and Crassis were 252 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:05.720 not buddies. He asks them not to injure the other's 253 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.039 interests each of them, so it's actually like a negative agreement. 254 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.519 So I'm not going to screw you if you promise 255 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.759 not to screw me. That's all he gets them to 256 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.240 agree to, which is enough to be a mortal threat 257 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.919 in the eyes of the optimates, because you know, the 258 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.919 whole idea of the Republican Constitution is the great men 259 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.440 kind of keep each other in check. So they're not 260 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.120 going to keep each other other in check. And so 261 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.480 it's all arranged kind of secretly behind the scenes, and 262 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:38.159 it doesn't come out until well into Caesar's consulship that 263 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:39.840 there's there's some collusion going on. 264 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:49.360 So speaking to Caesar's consulship, there's sort of a series 265 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:57.960 of reforms right that Caesar tempts and then passes. And 266 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.159 we've been speaking at multiple points about this sort of 267 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.680 populist and elitist in the broadest possible terms factions within 268 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:13.759 Roman politics. And you know, on one hand, right, look 269 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.200 at Caesar's lineage, which we mentioned earlier, but on the 270 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:20.319 other he is in bed with the most powerful men 271 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:26.720 in Rome. How can we characterize Caesar's period is consule? 272 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.279 What does he do? What are sort of the most 273 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.880 important moments of that time? 274 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:36.559 Yeah, well, Pompy and Crasis both are kind of outsiders politically. 275 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.400 I mean, you know, Crasus is from a noble family, 276 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.799 and he kind of grew up on the inside. His 277 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:48.119 father was a consul. But Crassus has has built up 278 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:51.319 an independent power base and like doesn't want to be 279 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:58.839 dependent on the oligarchic click of power brokers. And Pompey similarly, 280 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.119 is a kind of modern populists. And the main thing 281 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.759 that he wants is extraordinary commands so that he can 282 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.720 go and fight glorious wars and come back and be honored. 283 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:12.039 But he's not really great at the political game. And 284 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.440 and he's he's not from one of the noble families himself, 285 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.359 although his dad was at consul to be fair, so, 286 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.160 so they're they're kind of antagonists to the the aristocratic 287 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:29.559 core and uh, and they sort of stand above it 288 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:31.640 a little bit outside of it, a little bit above it, 289 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.519 and and so what what Caesar? 290 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:36.160 I mean? 291 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.839 Kind of same same goes for Caesar in his way. 292 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:48.400 What's heesters consulship is chiefly aimed at is furthering the 293 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.279 interests of Crassus and Pompey and himself, but through a 294 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:58.359 just brilliant program of legislation that I think Geltzer puts 295 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.960 it really well. Call I won't remember his exact words, 296 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.920 but essentially, the office of the consul had become a 297 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:13.799 kind of rubber stamp for policies that the Senate approved. 298 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.119 They didn't have a lot of real political agency to 299 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.960 it for several decades, partly because all the consuls tend 300 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:26.160 to be insiders, and they're not gonna, you know, they're 301 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.720 not going to get the support of the people they 302 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.880 need to get elected if they're in any way threatening 303 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.519 to rock the vote. So it's it's a filtering problem 304 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.200 on the one hand. But on the other hand, there's 305 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:42.599 there's so much obstructionism in the available to people who 306 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:43.440 want to block. 307 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:46.519 Policies and reforms. 308 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:51.680 That the only real way that change tended to happen 309 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.799 for radical or sort of even moderate reforms was through 310 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.039 the office of Tribune of the Plubs, which kind of 311 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.519 is a to ignore the Senate, Like you don't have 312 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:07.079 to get the Senate's approval to pass laws. You know, 313 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:09.880 you might get murdered in the streets during or after 314 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.720 your term, or you know, become a political nobody in exile. 315 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.640 But at least you can get like laws passed if 316 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:17.839 you're willing to take that risk. 317 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.599 And so what I like to think. 318 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.559 Actually that one of the big overriding policies of Caesar's 319 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:32.559 consulship was to prove that the Senate and the Optimists 320 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.920 didn't actually run the show at Rome. It was a 321 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.599 kind of a procedural point that he was making. And 322 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:40.559 so he passes these reforms, like there's a law and 323 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:47.920 order type reform to cut back on the abusive practices 324 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:51.519 and exploitation of provincial governors. He does manage to get 325 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:56.480 Pompey's soldiers rewarded for their service and distributes land, and 326 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:01.279 he doesn't drain the treasury because provides the funds from 327 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:05.559 his war plunder. Crassus's equestrian businessmen they do get there, 328 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.759 they get their contract knocked down, so they don't, you know, 329 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.319 end up in financial ruin but you know, you could 330 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:19.200 make the case that, as Cicero would, that the Equestrians 331 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:23.839 are like a really important pillar of stability, and doing 332 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:26.519 the Equestrians a favor was actually very much in the 333 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:28.440 Senate's interest. So there's all these kind of ways that 334 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.519 Caesar just kind of passes, all these reasonable policies, they're 335 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:37.000 all like really good laws, and he gets merciless obstruction 336 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:42.799 from Cato and the other consoles, an enemy of Caesar, Bibulous, 337 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.319 and their objections to Caesar just are any any success 338 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:53.319 that he has is even if it seems good for Rome, 339 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:55.640 it's actually bad for Rome because it's Caesar having the 340 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.480 success and he's a bad man and a tyrant on 341 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:02.920 the make. And this is Cato's only reason for objecting 342 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:08.759 to some of Caesar's policies. Amazingly, and to pass through 343 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:15.519 his laws, he ends up breaking with some procedural points 344 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:23.559 in Roman constitutional traditionalism. So Bibulous the other consul tries 345 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.119 to declare all of the voting days for the rest 346 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.400 of the year public holidays, so that no law can 347 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:35.519 be voted on. And this is you know, unprecedented and 348 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.599 kind of unprincipled, but it's legal. It's his it's his 349 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.920 legal right as a consul, because consoles get to declare 350 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:43.759 what the religious holidays are and you can't. You can't 351 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:48.799 vote on a holiday. And then Caesar just ignores this, 352 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:52.440 and all right, well, you know I didn't hear bibulous objecting. 353 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:54.960 I'm just going to do this, and you know, the 354 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.799 people show up to vote, the votes happen, the laws 355 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.440 are passed, and you know, traditionalists might be pulling their 356 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:09.480 hair out and lamenting the loss of piety all kinds 357 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:12.519 of things, but it just happens. It kind of shows. 358 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.480 These are kind of shows that sometimes you can just 359 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.920 do things and and test how far the limits go 360 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:25.079 by by bending or even breaking with procedural norms. So 361 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:27.240 it is a very disturbing year in a lot of 362 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:32.359 ways for the common Roman man who is just not 363 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.559 sure what to expect. I mean, these laws are getting broken, 364 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.559 and nothing seems to are these you know, these rules 365 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:40.559 are getting broken. In politics, nothing seems to be happening 366 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.480 except grand standing by the traditionalists. 367 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:45.960 Uh. 368 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.240 And and yet they do have a kind of a 369 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.759 backlash publicly, like Pompey actually faces a lot more of 370 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.799 the backlashan than Crassus, as Pompy is just a lot 371 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:01.000 more visible as a target of ire. He gets soldiers 372 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.440 to show up for some of these important votes so 373 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.160 they can have a quorum, and Pompy kind of loses 374 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.079 a lot of clout in that year, but Caesar gets 375 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.880 you know, it tests his own popularity too, because many 376 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:20.200 people are you know, railing against him in public, politicians 377 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:25.240 in particular. So yeah, it's it's a it's a it's 378 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.640 a most disturbing year for Rome. But but a lot 379 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:31.440 of stuff gets done, like a like a more stuff 380 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.640 than ever gets done, and anyone's anyone's consulships. Caesar just 381 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:39.880 knows how to manipulate the system and get policies pushed through. 382 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.279 So it shows his legislative brilliance, and it shows this 383 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:46.680 kind of lack of scruple when it comes to silly 384 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.960 traditions that get in the way of progress. A lot 385 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:51.640 of lessons there. 386 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.119 So the next part of the story is a massive 387 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:02.720 topic in its own right, and so at the risk 388 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:08.160 of getting kind of lost in the Gallic Wars, it 389 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.720 might be best if we speak about this primarily from 390 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:18.640 a political angle, right, What is happening with Caesar's appointment 391 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.519 to this role? Obviously, you know, I don't know if 392 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:23.559 we have the time to go into you know this 393 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.559 what five or seven I can never remember year period 394 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:31.400 of you know, intense conflict. But at the same time, 395 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:36.079 while Caesar is out of Rome, politics is still developing, right, 396 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.279 he is still an ambitious man. There is at least 397 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:42.640 some correspondence back home. And so if you could, could 398 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.200 you describe, well, one, how does Caesar end up trapesing 399 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:51.000 around France? Right? And two? Well, what happens while he's there? 400 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:52.880 What happens to the triumvir? 401 00:25:54.079 --> 00:26:02.359