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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: The broadcast this week originated as a U Tube live stream,

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and it's one of the longer shows I've ever done,

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so I understand if you parse this out. Some people

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are used to three hour broadcast, four or five hour broadcasts.

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Not my thing. I'm usually about an hour, maybe an

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hour and a half. This one, I think runs close

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to two and a half hours. But you know there's

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a lot going on. And the YouTube link in the

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description box if you want to go back and watch show. Okay,

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your calls on any subjects, So whatever's on your mind,

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I'll tell you kind of what's on my mind. To start,

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which is how I roll in the monologue. Some people

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like the monologue, some people despise them. It's funny. In

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the comments section, there's always somebody who jumps in and

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they're like, show actually starts at thirteen minutes and eight seconds,

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meaning that's when I shut my blathering pie hole and

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we take calls, and other people say, screw the calls,

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please rant thought. I can't please everybody. I'm just one man.

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Something on your mind, would love to talk to you.

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Natalie and I and a friend named Sam we went

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to a candle making shop last weekend. I don't know.

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It's something that they thought would be fun, a nice distraction,

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bubblegum for the brain. Didn't know we even had one

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of those? How didn't know we had? Yeah, that's right.

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It's called wick and flame or something like that. And

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you go in and you pay I don't know, thirty

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bucks something like that, and you sit at a counter

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and then they say, what do you want? What is

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the aroma that you are seeking? And then they walk

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you over to this big wall of little cops of

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various scents and it could be anything. Could be cinnamon,

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it could be the smell of whiskey. It could be

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leaves and grass, it could be some other thing. I mean,

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there must have been one hundred and fifty and you're

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supposed to go through and it's sample, and then if

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your nose is overwhelmed, you clear your nasal palette by

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sniffing this thing full of coffee beans that's supposed to

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reset you. I guess, almost like a wine tasting. And

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then you go back and you sniff some more until

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you find two or three that you really like. And

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it's funny because of all of us that were there,

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we all had different goals. I went up and I said,

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I would like something that smells like October, because you

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know me, I love the month of October. She's like,

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uh huh, we don't have anything out front, but in

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the back I could go retrieve a few things. Oh yes,

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special treatment for the fall of romas. So she came

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back and she brought me something called pumpkin buttercream, which

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was as delightful as it sounds. Then she had bonfire smoke,

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and it's like we're sitting outside with roasting marshmallows over

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the bondonfire. And then she wanted something to kind of

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spice it. Up. So we took a Moroccan spice and

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I mixed them all together, and she set us at

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our workstation and we appropriated the different ratios of chemicals together,

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poured it into our thing, and then came the wax,

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and then we set the wick and it began to

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set up, and then I put glitter on the top,

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because hey, I just want glitter. I got copper colored glitter.

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And I'm tonight after a week of curing and asked

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to cure apparently because the smells have to talk about it.

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I don't know how it works. Tonight weight, Well, shit,

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you hear my cat? Can you hear that? He does that?

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He just walks the halls and howls. I'm becoming a

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little concerned about his health. He's fifteen, sixteen ish, starting

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to show some signs of decline, but he's also living

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a good life. I did not plan this. This was

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not a pre recorded soundtrack. This morning, when he was

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sitting on my lap, he was totally zending me out,

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and so I grabbed my phone just quietly and I

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took a little video of him doing what he does

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on an early morning. So maybe this will be some

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ASMR for you. Check it out. Sweet little kitty. Right,

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sweet little kitty totally relaxes me. So he doesn't seem

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like he's in discomfort, but he does. And he has

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always howled like a banshee, and he's not keeping his

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food in as much A couple of times a day.

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We're finding a little discovery reason. I'm like, well, what

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does that mean, because don't cats yack a lot? Anyway?

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If it gets any worse, he's going to the vet.

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It's just been that kind of week. And I'll get

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to that in just a second. I had an experience

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with technology that might interest you. So we had a

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front doorbell with this cheap ass camera thing on. You've

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seen the camera doorbells, but the one that we had,

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I forgot exactly where it came from. It was years

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and years old, and the app barely pulled anything up,

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but hardly ever worked. So if someone rings your doorbell,

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in the theory you get a live video feed on

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your phone or you have to go pull it up,

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and you're supposed to see who it is. Is it

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a solicitor, is it a friend or family member, neighbor

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or whatever, But all you could see was an outline

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of a shadow because the light, the back light from

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the yard and the street blew it out. You couldn't

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see a damn thing. Resolution was terrible, and it finally failed.

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I went by and it was flashing this red light.

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I couldn't do a reset. Screw this. So I looked

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online for newer video doorbells and the technology has gotten crazy,

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and I found one five star reviews across the board.

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I'll go ahead and tell you what it was. Let

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me pull it up. It's Tapo. T is in tom

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Ta Po Tapo, and they do cameras and they do doorbells,

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and they do other stuff. They even have like a

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smart rumba thing, a vacuum that goes around your house,

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and they got products never heard of Tapos, Like, all right,

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well it's seventy nine dollars, I'll get it. This thing

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is crazy and we've set all kinds of parameters. It's

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got a two K camera on it with a light

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on the actual doorbells, so if somebody comes up, it'll

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actually boost the light so you can see their face better.

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The clarity is better, it plays with the light better,

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and then you set boundaries so if they walk up

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to your door, you decide you want to know about that.

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You tie it into your home system, and all of

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a sudden, it says someone is standing on your porch.

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What then it rings the doorbell, you know, or someone

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rings the doorbell, and someone is ringing your doorbell ding dong,

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and your phone rings, and you can answer it from

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wherever you are and have a video conversation immediately with

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whoever has rung the doorbell. And there are all kinds

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of crazy options. You can set it to detect pets.

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You can have car detection or ignore the cars. And

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so I went and bought a companion camera for it,

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and I stuck it on the front corner of my house.

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I can see what the hell's going on all around

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my neighborhood. I've got some already installed, but I thought, well,

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I got to try this out. It's two cameras in one,

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each facing a different part of the street, and you

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can set those detections cars, animals, kids, sidewalking down sidewalk, driveway,

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no driveway. You can draw a line and say, if

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anyone crosses this point to this point, I have an

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invisible boundary. Somebody crosses this line, they're not on the sidewalk,

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they're not just hanging out near the street, but oh

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they're in my property. Somebody's doing that shit. I get

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an immediate notification on my phone in my house. It's insane.

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So I am just it's not just a toy, but

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it kind of is. I've just been astounded. And then

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of course I'm like, well, I'm not tied into a cloud,

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or do I not know I'm tied into a cloud?

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Are we being surveilled? Are my patterns being documented when

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I go, where I go, what I'm doing? Am I

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being watched in a surveillance state? These are fair questions

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to ask. Remember the with It the Ring commercial on

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the Super Bowl when somebody's straight dog had walked in

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front of a camera and all of a sudden, all

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the ring cameras talk to each other and they're like, hey,

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Bob's dog who lives You know, this guy lives five

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miles away. Somebody contact Bob, his dog's over here, and

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people the commercial was saying, what a great interconnected information database.

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This is the dog he was rescued. You and I

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are thinking, you gotta be shitting me, right, This isn't

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surveillance network running by itself? And how far does that go.

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But I'll admit it's been kind of awesome. I mean,

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somebody walks up during the broadcast today, I'm in my

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home studio. For now, I'm in my home studio after

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a downstairs flood. We are waiting for the repair of

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the floor. They came in, ripped the whole damn thing out,

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and they brought in industrial fans and tore out sheet

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rock and they just finish repairing the wall. So now

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we're waiting on floors and they say they're going to

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move us out for a few days. So that's one

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of the reasons that I'm doing a broadcast in advance

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here is because we may be ousted. And if I'm

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in a hotel somewhere as we're waiting to get access

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to our home and they have to stain the floor,

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I'm going to be doing I think some more writing.

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I'm working on a book project that you know, projects

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like that are you start a painting, you start a

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piece of music, you start a book and you don't

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even know if you'll ever finish it or if it

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will go anywhere, but you just nibble away at it.

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It has been this way for months. How many words

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am I in like fifteen thousand words in so I'm

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kind of committed. So I'll probably do that. When will

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it release? What's it called? I'm not even going there

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because I can't even promise you that you will see this.

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You won't. I can't promise you'll hear the audio book.

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I can't promise it'll ever happen. But you know, if

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I've got three days, it's going to be me and

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the dogs and cat Cat in a hotel room. I

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don't know how that's gonna work out, you know, Flip

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He's he's going to be doing that stuff in a

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hotel room. I look forward to explaining that to the

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rooms next door. It has been kind of a traumatic weekend.

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And I only bring this up because I know you

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this has touched you in your life, and I just

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want to talk about it if I can, and my

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wife would would not. I'm not betraying my wife's trust.

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She would be obviously a little shy about all this,

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you know, as far as attention, but she would certainly

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be fine with me telling you. Okay, So her mother

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has advanced Alzheimer's. I think Sue is upper seventies and

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a few years ago we got the diagnosis. We saw

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the signs and she was deteriorating, but she was insisting, no, no, no,

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I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, there's nothing wrong with me.

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I'm fine. You became almost belligerent, which is understandable. He's

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panicking because her cognitive abilities are declining, and she's desperate

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for control, and she doesn't want to become an object

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of pity. You know, there's so many gears in that machine,

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and the rest of us are watching helplessly, and every

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day it gets worse, on the order of months and

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then a few years, to the point where Natalie will

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spend time with her, and she knows that Natalie is familiar,

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but she doesn't know that Natalie is her daughter. She

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feels safe enough, like there's something about you that is safe,

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but I don't know that you're my kid. I don't

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know your name. Sometimes she says it's my sister, sometimes

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she says it's my friend. Sometimes she doesn't know. And

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Natalie is just a freaking gladiator, you know. She spends

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all this time and she works on triggers for memory

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that take her to a joyous place. And there's something

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about music, at least for Sue the music of her youth.

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She was a big fan of the fifties, you know,

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genre of the sixties. She even sang in like a

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do wop band back in the day, you know. And

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so Natalie will go over and pull up Pandora or

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whatever and choose that channel. And this woman who does

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not know her daughter's name, doesn't know where she is,

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will see every lyric to the songs is crazy. And

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then she smiles and she kind of bounces in her chair.

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There's some science to this. Forgive me for not knowing

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more about it, I'm sure you may. And then the

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music ends, and the visit ends, and Sue goes back

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to this near panicky place where she's almost she's like

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a piece of thin glass. She becomes weepy like that,

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and then she will go blank faced, and then she'll

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look around, and then she might smile for a second,

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and then she begins to cry again. In a matter

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of a minute, this cycle happens, and Natalie is watching

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the deterioration of her mother. So it was brutal. So

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nat gets a call Friday that her mother her husband

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takes her everywhere because she can't be left alone. She's

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still not in perpetual care. She still lives with her husband,

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who is not a great caregiver, but he's doing the

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best he can. And she collapses low blood pressure. She

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just hits the I think he caught her on the

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way to the pavement in front of a Costco and

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so she was rushed to the emergency room and has

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been admitted and has been in the hospital for a

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few days. And so they've been working in shifts. I

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was up there last night with everybody, and she can't

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really sit up. She certainly can't stand or her blood

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pressure plummets at as all this is going on, she is,

255
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she's lying there and she knows that she's among people

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that she should know, but she doesn't know us. She's

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lost all faculties. She can't control really anything. And we

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go through that minute by minute cycle. There's a smile,

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there's the plant stare, there the tears, there's the reset.

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And I'll tell you, I know, Sue and I have

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never been super close. I mean, she's always been lovely

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to me and vice versa, but we just didn't hang

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a lot, you know, But you know, my wife. To

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watch somebody you care about go through that is tough

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because there's nothing I can do. Right. I'm the husband.

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I'm trying to be a fixer. What can I do

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for you? Can I bring you food? Can I go

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what I tell you? Know, I'm totally helpless and she

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feels the same. And it's such an insidious disease. You know,

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if there is ever any evidence that there is no

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benevolent God, this is up there on the list the

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cruelty of Alzheimer's, the cruelty of it. You lose them

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a day at a time, you know, and yet they

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are still here, but they're not here. They're drawing breath,

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their organs are working for the time being at least somewhat,

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but they're not them, Like Sue died a long time ago.

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So what do you do with that? Cat? I'm trying

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to have a moment with you, and my cat comes in. Cat,

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what are you doing? Honey? He's sympathizing. I don't know

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why I brought this up. It's I just can't not

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think about it. And she's at the hospital now and

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there's nothing I can do. I'm like, can I come

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up now? Whatever? I had this very hard conversation and

284
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I had a version of it after my father passed

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a few years ago, and he died of cystic fibrosis,

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which means his lung scarred over and he suffocated to death. Right,

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They're bringing in oxygen that doesn't keep up, so they

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have a bigger machine that doesn't keep up. Finally, there's

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not a bigger machine, so they're limited, so they pump

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morphine into him so he doesn't panic himself off the

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bed until finally his body just gives out. Holy shit.

292
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And he was a devout, evangelical, right devout, and taking

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his own life or taking control of his death would

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have been a sin because he would have been playing God.

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It never occurred to him, never occurred to him, And

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I thought, nah, never, not for me, Not for me. Right,

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you tell me that I'm going to suffer to death

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and I don't know what it looks. I'm calling final exit.

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I'm going to Portland, I'm going to Switzerland. Cat, what's

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00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:20,359
going on? It's the most odd monologue I think I've

301
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given in the last ten years. I've got candles, I've

302
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got Alzheimer's, and I've got a cat that apparently wants

303
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to sing in a hair band. So let's say I

304
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get the diagnosis tomorrow and when we had and Natalie

305
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,680
wouldn't mind me having this conversation with you either, because

306
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you probably had it in your own life. I get

307
00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:48,839
the diagnosis, Seth. You are going to lose your mind

308
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one day at a time for eight years. You will

309
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lose yourself. You won't know your wife, you won't know

310
00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:04,720
your neighbors, you won't know the members of your community.

311
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You'll be vacant, You'll panic. Your brain will lose the

312
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ability to tell the body how to do what the

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body does. Your heartbeat will flutter, your kidneys will fail,

314
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You'll be going to the bathroom all over yourself. You'll

315
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lose the ability to walk. You will be a vacancy,

316
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,359
your body rebelling against you forty years. And on top

317
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,119
of that, especially in the United States, you will likely

318
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bankrupt the family you leave behind. Perpetual care in this country,

319
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,799
good luck with that. Call it what I think. Some

320
00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:49,200
of those places run forty or fifty thousand dollars a year.

321
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Or if you're home, you've been slaved the caregiver to

322
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do the most awful of tasks and lose their own life,

323
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,599
years of their own life as they watch you die

324
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:10,960
over the course of half a decade. No, not doing that.

325
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,160
I live in a state where that's I think it's

326
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illegal in Oklahoma to do like medical aid and dying.

327
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And then comes the question, because I'm a frontline activist,

328
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and I understand that that comes not with a lot

329
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of risk, but certainly in this climate there is a

330
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measure of risk. So I have life insurance to make

331
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sure that if something was to happen, my wife will

332
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not be abandoned financially, that she'll be taken care of. Okay,

333
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you have Alzheimer's seth and I say, fine, I'm going

334
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to employ a physician, or get an advisor, or take

335
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control of how I exit right. Not in a macabre way,

336
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but in a liberating way. I Am not going to

337
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give up who I am and the decision making process

338
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about my life and death. Not doing it. It's not

339
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playing God. It's living with dignity and dying with some dignity.

340
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If I decided to do that, does it nullify the

341
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policy that I've been paying on for years and years

342
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and years to make sure that my family is not

343
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financially abandoned and goes bankrupt. I've been sitting here while

344
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she's been at the hospital, and I've just been stewing,

345
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and I'm so sorry to burn you with it, but

346
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I know this has touched you in your life. You

347
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have either you have been a caregiver, or you've known

348
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somebody who contracted some long term debilitating Oh my god,

349
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what are we going to do? Disease or condition, and

350
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:58,200
it disrupted every part of your life, and you found

351
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yourself grieving that person and incrementally over the course of weeks, months, years,

352
00:24:05,839 --> 00:24:15,480
and everybody loses. Everybody loses. I don't know. I told

353
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Natalie that if I knew I was going to pass away,

354
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I'm doing my own eulogy, like I wouldn't burden her

355
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:28,279
with it. Now, I certainly don't trust somebody else to

356
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,559
organize it. Oh hey he's dead, let's hire a princher. No, No,

357
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,640
not doing that. And I'm a professional communicator, so I

358
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if I know it's coming, while I still have all

359
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,960
my faculties, I think I'm going to do my own eulogy.

360
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Welcome everybody, you don't wish I was here. I thought

361
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:56,799
about doing those cards with the Luigi boards. You'd seal

362
00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:59,279
them in envelopes and you'd hand them out to everybody.

363
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When they come in and sit in the seats, and

364
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,440
then all of a sudden, I have them open them

365
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,359
and there's a Wigi board inside a ouigi board and

366
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,759
a plan hut, and the message on the Ouiji board says,

367
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,319
let's keep in touch. My religious family would freak out.

368
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:18,759
Everybody else would be howling with laughter, howling with laughter,

369
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,839
and I get a chance to say to the people

370
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,440
I care about, what I've always wanted to say and

371
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,960
what I try to say every day. I'd be able

372
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,000
to speak to my values and talk about the world

373
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I've left behind and what I'd like to see happen.

374
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And then I would tell everybody, don't dwell on this.

375
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,480
Go live. Life is short, life is finite, life is fragile.

376
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:47,519
Live remember me. Somebody better do some crying. Somebody better

377
00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:50,680
be crying over my ass. But when you're done crying,

378
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:58,119
I want you to go live. Terry Pratchett has a documentary.

379
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,559
It's an hour long piece that aired in Britain. He

380
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,640
received a lot of criticism for it about medical aid

381
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,079
and dying, and he chronicled two or three different stories,

382
00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:12,839
including one guy who was he had I think an

383
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,079
autoimmune disease. Some degenerative disease for which there was no cure,

384
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:20,039
and the guy still had his mental faculties, but his

385
00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:24,039
body was failing. He was miserable and decided this is it. So,

386
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,160
alongside his wife, with Terry Pratchett in the room, he

387
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,319
decided he was going to go ahead and plan and

388
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,160
carry out his end on his terms, and so he

389
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,480
allowed cameras in the room, Terry sitting in a chair

390
00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:42,839
across from him, and an exit guide sitting across and

391
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,359
his wife's holding his hand, and with all dignity he

392
00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:50,960
thanks everybody, Thank you for everything you've done, thank you

393
00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,720
for everything you are on his terms. And then he

394
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,400
drank a little thing of liquid and he fell asleep,

395
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,480
and his life was over. You could see Terry Pratchett,

396
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,039
who had been I think diagnosed at the time with Alzheimer's,

397
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,599
himself very moved and I'm sure of really how to

398
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:15,440
feel because of what I've just seen that, I thought, yeah, yeah,

399
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,200
surround me with the people I care about, give me

400
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,880
a measure of control. I'm sorry forgive. I'm just be

401
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,559
laboring it. I'm going to move on. I did not

402
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,039
mean to make the opening monologue about right to die issues,

403
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,319
but I can talk to you, and I know you relate.

404
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,359
I know it's touched you in some way. I'm sorry

405
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:44,079
for getting emotional. So anyway, whatever you want to talk

406
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:47,119
about for the rest of the broadcast, I'm all yours

407
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:50,200
for what it's worth. Plenty of people waiting on the

408
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:54,160
switchboard and many of your calls on the way next,

409
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,720
thank you so much for listening today as we do

410
00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:07,799
kind of an extended show, and go to the phones.

411
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,160
Is it Corwin dialing in.

412
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 4: That? It is Seth.

413
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,759
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Thanks for your patience as I do,

414
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,400
you know, a half an hour of rambling. What do

415
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,119
you want to talk about today?

416
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: Well, first, I'm sorry for what your wife and family

417
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,920
is going through being there done that. It's hard, It's

418
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,519
very hard. So thank you, sympathy to all of you.

419
00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:33,279
Speaker 2: Thank you.

420
00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: So on to me. I'm a trans guy, he him pronouns.

421
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,079
I came out when I was forty five, about five

422
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,319
years ago, almost sixty years ago, and for most of

423
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:53,759
my family, they're mostly atheists, and it went reasonably well.

424
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:57,200
Being atheist doesn't guarantee a good reception, but you know,

425
00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:00,799
we worked our shit out. The exception is my sister

426
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:08,400
and her family hardcore evangelical born again people, and my sister,

427
00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:11,759
I'll be honest, is one of the kindest, most generous

428
00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:14,960
people I've ever known in my entire life. She literally

429
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:18,799
works with her whole careers being working with kids with disabilities.

430
00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:26,839
You know, she's now the program manager for youth you know,

431
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,519
at risk kind of program kind of thing. So she

432
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,200
is a really good person. She is also incredibly bigoted

433
00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:37,359
towards all of the usual suspects when it comes to

434
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:43,240
Evangelical Christians, and I just don't really know how to

435
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:47,359
deal with it. At this point. She refuses to use

436
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,960
hee him pronouns instead just uses my name, refers to

437
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,240
me as her sibling as opposed to brother, et cetera.

438
00:29:55,799 --> 00:30:00,480
And it just keeps coming up, and I know, willing

439
00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:04,359
to cut off the relationship, you know, talking about death.

440
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,119
In the last you know, seven years, I've lost mom, dad, stepmom, grandparents,

441
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,599
like they're all gone. She's virtually the only family I

442
00:30:13,599 --> 00:30:20,400
have left. And I know not all Christians are bigoted.

443
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,359
I know some activists Christians in the LGBT human community

444
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,279
who are extremely accepting and amazing allies. And I just

445
00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:31,839
don't know if there's anything I can say to my

446
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,960
sister to switcher over.

447
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I ask how you've lost your loved ones?

448
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,680
I mean, was it parents to age? Was it tragedy?

449
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680
You know, it sounds like a great many.

450
00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: Of them have cancer. Cancer was a big one. She

451
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:50,960
got both my stepmom and my dad. My stepmom quite young,

452
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,920
my dad at seventy five ish, and my mom just

453
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,519
passed about two years ago, basically the complications of COPD.

454
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:08,519
Speaker 2: May I asked, when you came to terms with your

455
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:11,799
own gender identity, you know, and how did they respond

456
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:16,240
at the time, Mom and dad especially, So.

457
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:19,599
Speaker 4: I started figuring things out when I was forty. I

458
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,960
was a late bloomer, although I came out as by

459
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:26,960
when I was nineteen, so you know, I've always identified

460
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,960
as some level of queer, and then I didn't come

461
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,039
out till I was forty five. But then I speed

462
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:37,599
ran the transition. My dad was shockingly good about it.

463
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,680
I've never had a great relationship with my dad. He's

464
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,680
anger management problems, to say the least, but he was

465
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:47,160
just like I have I don't understand what this is.

466
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,079
I just don't. I'm too old, but I don't freaking care.

467
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:57,119
In the best possible way, my mom. Oddly, although she

468
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,880
was born and raised in San Francisco, ended up being

469
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:04,640
the hardest one to deal with. I had to cut

470
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,440
off communication with her for about two months because it

471
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,200
was just like you just I can't deal with it.

472
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:13,880
Every time I talk to you, I get angry. I

473
00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:16,319
can't do it. But she eventually came around, and when

474
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,200
in the independent living place she was at, she eventually

475
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,240
introduced me to the people there as her son. So

476
00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:26,119
that was really good. My kids have dealt with it

477
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,519
really well. My ex, who I still live with, he

478
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,359
just did not care at all. So for the most part,

479
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,200
things went really well. My sister there were some bumps,

480
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:41,319
but she decided to not make it a huge issue.

481
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,000
So we are very close.

482
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: How does the bigotry manifest itself if you're clothes and

483
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,480
it's not a big deal to her, but you're still

484
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:55,359
hearing bigoted things, How do these things manifest?

485
00:32:57,559 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 5: Okay?

486
00:32:58,039 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 4: So as an example, this just happened last week. We

487
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,000
were we go swimming at the rec center the fauna.

488
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:08,839
There's always chit chat and talk with everybody, and there

489
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,279
was this guy there that has two younger kids, like

490
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,519
twelve and eight, and I was just we were talking

491
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:19,480
about trans stuff, and he's like, I just don't think

492
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:23,920
kids should be allowed to make decisions on transitioning. And

493
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,200
I said, do you mind if I explain, you know,

494
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,240
sort of what transitioning for miners.

495
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 5: Actually looks like.

496
00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 4: My sister was also there, and so I explained how

497
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,759
puberty blockers work, that there doesn't cause sterility, you know,

498
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:40,160
the benefits of it being that, you know, kids who

499
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,200
don't have access stuberty blockers get on illegal hormones, which

500
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,960
is really not good. That's not a good idea for

501
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,920
miners to be doing do it yourself transition, especially where

502
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,960
I am. I'm in Canada. In BC, kids do have

503
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,160
access to puberty blockers, so with full medical consents and

504
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,960
all of that good stuff. And my sister jumps in

505
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,039
and goes, well, you know, trans kids can't be trans.

506
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,679
She's jumping in with her, And I don't think children

507
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,679
should have the right to, you know, dictate their own,

508
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,119
you know, what they do until they're fully adults, you know.

509
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,599
And so she so she was jumping in basically saying

510
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,719
contradicting everything I said, you know, and you know, I

511
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:33,679
don't I don't agree with adults doing it, but I

512
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,119
can't stop them with her, I think literally, is what

513
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,480
she said. So that's just an example of the kind

514
00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:43,239
of stuff she's told me. She thinks I have a

515
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,599
mental illness, that kind of stuff, And.

516
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: Yet you maintain a close relationship. Do you feel like

517
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,840
that is you doing most of the stretching because she

518
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,800
is one of the last of your bio family. Yes,

519
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:03,400
do you, I feel that you are. Do you get

520
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:09,440
fed emotionally intellectually? Does having a connection with her? And

521
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,920
I'm not a not a psychologist, but we're just talking

522
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,079
having a connection with her, what does that do for you?

523
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,599
Speaker 4: So outside of like the religion and the trance stuff,

524
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,960
we are really close. So like we have had for

525
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:32,079
the last like thirty years kind of a policy of

526
00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:35,440
just don't there are topics we can't talk about. We

527
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,000
can't talk about abortions, we can't talk about LGBTQ rights,

528
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:43,119
we can't like there's some things we can't talk about.

529
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,280
But at the same time, you know, there's all.

530
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 5: The rest of life.

531
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,119
Speaker 4: We can talk about her kids, we can talk about

532
00:35:48,199 --> 00:35:52,079
our work, you know, we can talk about books and movies.

533
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:56,920
So I mean we're very very close outside of those areas,

534
00:35:57,119 --> 00:36:01,079
which I mean she she honestly feel like she has

535
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:02,760
said to me, I'm afraid to talk to you about

536
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,079
my religion because at some point you're gonna fly off

537
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:08,840
the handle. Which it's like, We've been doing this for

538
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,280
fifty fucking years. She's only a year, just over a

539
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,079
year younger than me.

540
00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: So when you talk about LGBT issues, does she fly

541
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:18,639
off the handle?

542
00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:23,559
Speaker 4: Well, not fly off the handle, no, but she I

543
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:28,840
mean she won't use him pronounced, So I mean, what

544
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,639
is flying off the handle? I mean, I don't get

545
00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:33,039
angry at her, but she acts like I could suddenly

546
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:36,800
freak out all over her, which I have never done.

547
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of that is, I think her way

548
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,159
of discrediting the witness. You're just being emotional, when a

549
00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:45,880
lot of it might just be you know, she's projecting

550
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,239
some of the high emotions that she is feeling. I

551
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,159
in my life understand, I've got some relationships now where

552
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:57,159
there are people and we stand apart on some very

553
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,039
important key issues. But I have decades of investment in

554
00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:05,400
their lives and theirs in mind. And this sounds odd,

555
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:08,800
but they would give me the shirt off their back.

556
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,880
They would probably advocate for me. If somebody was talking

557
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,400
poorly about me. They are generous in so many other

558
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,719
areas of their lives, but in this one compartmentalized box,

559
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:30,119
it's problematic. And I go back and forth between can

560
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:32,960
I overlook this and then am I part of the

561
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,920
problem because I'm allowing it and not drawing the hard line?

562
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:41,400
Or do I maintain the connection? What is there in

563
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,639
the hopes that we can enjoy what we have and

564
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,519
then maybe I can be a positive influence along the

565
00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:50,719
way to expand their horizons away from those bigotries. And

566
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,840
I don't know the right answer, but I'll bet you

567
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,119
can relate to everything I had just said, right.

568
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,679
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, And I guess what I was wondering is

569
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,960
if you know, because I mean I do have meant

570
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:09,719
many like extremely devout Christians who are absolutely one like

571
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:13,800
perfect allies. Like in the city where I live, one

572
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:20,800
of the biggest LGBTQ organizers is h I mean, I'm

573
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,639
assuming he's sists and heterosexual pastor of a Lutheran church

574
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,800
who is I mean, he is hardcore, he marries queer

575
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,760
couples and stuff like. He's as ally as you can get.

576
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:36,239
So it's not a matter of the Christianity. I mean

577
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,320
obviously I have disagreements. I'm I mean, I'm a hardcore

578
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,719
atheist myself, but you know, obviously I have disagreements with

579
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,400
that belief. But as far as the practical application in

580
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840
the world, I have no problem with you know, somebody

581
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,400
like that at all. He's doing amazing work, and I'm

582
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,400
just wondering if you know of any methodology. I'm not

583
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,840
trying to make my sister not a Christian. What I'm

584
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,519
trying to make her is ideally not a big aga.

585
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: Well, and therein lies the challenge. I have a hardcore

586
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:15,199
evangelical maga mother. How do I make her not be

587
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,519
a part of the cult? You know? How do you

588
00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:22,679
make an addict not addicted to a substance? And that

589
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,360
is a burden that we often take on ourselves because

590
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,079
we're desperate to see someone else be liberated from bad ideas.

591
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:34,760
But it's not realistic because we can't make anyone do anything.

592
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,320
I think all we can do is provide the opportunity

593
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,360
and say here is why I think it would be

594
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,119
good and why everybody's life would be better. But you

595
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:48,519
and I are in this situation where we can't make

596
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,400
anybody do or think or be anything. And I think

597
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,079
for you, all I can tell you is how I

598
00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:56,559
would approach it, and how i'd, in my imperfect way,

599
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:59,880
approach it is that if they say, well, I disagree

600
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:05,719
with abortion, and we can have a conversation about reproductive rights,

601
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,199
and maybe they invoke the Bible, and I talk about

602
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:13,800
this or that and then the biology of it.

603
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 6: And.

604
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: Yet they are not They're not in a way coming

605
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,360
after me personally belittling. If we're having a respected, respectful

606
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,679
conversation in the way that I might have when I

607
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:29,039
was anti abortion, then that is easier for me to

608
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:34,039
abide and be around than if somebody came after me

609
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:37,119
and said, you just want to murder babies, you evil Satanist, Right,

610
00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:41,320
So I have to have a cost benefit situational conversation.

611
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,559
Every time I engage someone in that way and say

612
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,079
I was once the victim of bad ideas, will I

613
00:40:47,159 --> 00:40:51,079
give them a little bit of latitude because I know

614
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,079
overall they are perpetrators of bad ideas, but they're also

615
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,239
victims of bad ideas, and they're operating as in their

616
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,400
minds as best they can out of malice. But because

617
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,880
they simply have married themselves to what kind of mythology

618
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,800
and can I maybe help expand that horizon that makes

619
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,679
it easier to hang. But if they're like you know,

620
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,320
those evil, wicked Satanists and in your case, those perverse

621
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,199
trans people who've messed up God's model in eaborating the

622
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:25,000
world and they're targeting our children, etc. That's a different

623
00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:28,800
conversation and I think only you can decide how much

624
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,039
of that you're willing to abide and tolerate. But if

625
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:34,920
you do end up drawing a harder line, please know

626
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,760
that that's not your fault. I think an authentic life

627
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,440
is something that she should want for you. And if

628
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,320
in some way she wants to deny you your own autonomy,

629
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:51,920
your validity, your humanity, then that's a line that she

630
00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:55,440
drew that has nothing to do with you. She's forced

631
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,400
your hand, and for your own safety and mental health,

632
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,719
you may have to draw awkward, But that's a very

633
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,840
intimate and personal conversation that only you can have with yourself.

634
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,880
Just know that if you get there, she forced you

635
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,840
there and it's not your fault.

636
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

637
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,199
Speaker 2: Does that help it all?

638
00:42:11,199 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 6: Bro?

639
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

640
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: Do you want to hear? Do you have one more

641
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,599
minute to make this all more complicated?

642
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,119
Speaker 2: Go ahead and me I we'll take a minute super quickly.

643
00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:27,119
Speaker 4: My youngest child, who is seventeen, has recently just come

644
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:29,840
out as trends and is still one in the closet.

645
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:32,559
I say recently, I mean within the last couple of years,

646
00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:35,440
has come out to friends and his dad and I,

647
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,079
and so it's feeling a lot more high pressure is

648
00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:44,239
because when they come out, that's going to be like,

649
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:49,159
whatever level of acceptance of the situation I can have

650
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,599
for myself, that's going to be very very different when

651
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:56,079
we're talking about my kid, and that's going to get

652
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,480
that could get very ugly very quickly.

653
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:02,119
Speaker 2: And your child needs that advocacy, right, I mean, and

654
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:05,360
I think it's set's a good example about authenticity and boundaries.

655
00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:10,360
I mean, respect starts with self respect and so but

656
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,239
if it comes to if it comes to taking the

657
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,920
scissors to the cord, I think from my vantage as

658
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,480
best as I can hear that you are much more

659
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,400
interested in coexistence then she may be. And if that,

660
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:29,760
if worse comes to worse, that's simply something that was

661
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,280
forced upon you. That decision is not your fault. I

662
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,800
think a lot of it may be about about self

663
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,159
respect and setting that example of self respect for those

664
00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:42,920
around you, including your child. It's it's not a professional opinion,

665
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,760
but it's an encouragement, and I'm sorry for the trouble

666
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,880
that you've had, but I'm glad that you have found

667
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,840
who you are and are living authentically and I hope

668
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,920
your life is amazing.

669
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:55,679
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, thank you so much, have a great day.

670
00:43:55,599 --> 00:43:57,559
Speaker 2: Honor speaking with you. Thank you for calling me.

671
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,519
Speaker 4: Thanks, bye bye.

672
00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 2: That's people ask me for advice and I feel hyper unqualified.

673
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,280
Excuse me, I'm still sniffling. That's just so dumb. I'm

674
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,119
on camera and I'm sitting there with it, and forgive it.

675
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,719
Let's see, because I don't want to sniff into this

676
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,719
microphone because I was just gross. Now, yeah, here's Here's.

677
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:24,079
Speaker 7: So.

678
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: I had two conversations recently with different people. One person

679
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,519
with someone I've known for thirty five years, still MAGA,

680
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:37,280
and I reached out and I was like, all right,

681
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:42,519
where's the line I forgot which atrocity had happened? And

682
00:44:42,559 --> 00:44:46,199
I just was like, is this enough for you to

683
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,440
say enough? And she hemmed and hawed and hemmed and

684
00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:55,199
hawd idiot right because it was going to be Trump regardless.

685
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,639
She's married to the idea, But I didn't think there

686
00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:02,400
was big a tree there. I think she was just brainwashed.

687
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:05,360
She'd been Fox News into thinking he was a genius

688
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:09,079
and he loves America because he hugged an actual flag

689
00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:12,159
on a pole and he says all the right words

690
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:13,719
and waves a Bible in the air and all that

691
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,679
shallow bullshit. She's not a deep thinker about this stuff,

692
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,880
I will admit. But I thought, well, I I don't

693
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,840
think she's trying to be bigoted. And I asked this question.

694
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,039
I said, okay, well, if Trump goes on television tomorrow

695
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:32,199
and uses the N word, would that be enough of

696
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:38,199
a line for you? And she paused and she said,

697
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:41,880
well it would be wrong. Yeah, I know it would

698
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,159
be wrong. Would that be a bridge too far? Would

699
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:52,079
you stand alongside me shoulder to shoulder to condemn it? Pause?

700
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,559
Well it would, It's I don't He's not a perfect man.

701
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,039
You can hear could hear playing twister in her brain?

702
00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:06,320
You know, we've all we were all imperfect. God sometimes

703
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,280
uses imperfect people, and there's some things he says that

704
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,000
I just don't like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, if

705
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:15,920
he uses the N word, will you stand alongside me

706
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:23,840
and condemn it publicly, and I got a very vague answer,

707
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,599
and so I rephrased the question or ask a different question.

708
00:46:27,639 --> 00:46:33,280
I said, would you still support him? And she said yes,

709
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:43,679
that's what I needed to know. Goodbye. We haven't spoken

710
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:51,599
since the black light at the scene. Man, it's exposed

711
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:57,480
the bigotry and the dehumanizing cruelty, the racism, the sexism,

712
00:46:58,119 --> 00:47:01,000
people that I'd never expected in my eve it And

713
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:04,280
I was like, okay, well you've Maya Angelou once said,

714
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,679
when someone shows you who they are, or tells you

715
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,519
who they are, believe them. I took the scissors and went,

716
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:17,960
yep done. Some would disagree and say, no, you got

717
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,320
to keep trying now. Not for me, maybe for you.

718
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,960
If he said the N word, I'd still support him. Snip.

719
00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:33,079
There's somebody else voted for Trump three times, and over

720
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:37,400
the last twelve months has finally started to raise an eyebrow.

721
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,960
I don't know who they'd vote for again, but I

722
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:46,639
know that they are. They're having some moments and they've

723
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,000
they've kind of checked out. Well, you know, I just

724
00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:51,840
don't want to think about it. I just don't. He's

725
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,800
just a bad it's bad. It's I don't know. They're embarrassed.

726
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:02,079
They're embarrassed because they know my stance and remain friends.

727
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:06,599
And I'm watching this progression in them while taking a

728
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,400
very definitive and hardstand for what I feel is right

729
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:13,159
on my end, publicly coming forward day after day, time

730
00:48:13,199 --> 00:48:19,599
after time and saying why. And something interesting happened two

731
00:48:19,679 --> 00:48:24,760
days ago that person who voted for Trump three times

732
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:30,320
sent me a sign that they saw. There's a protester

733
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:34,559
over near seventy first Memorial in Tulsa, and they're out

734
00:48:34,559 --> 00:48:37,960
there all the time holding up a sign. And I

735
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,000
guess he was driving by saw the sign. He took

736
00:48:41,039 --> 00:48:43,440
a phone picture and he texted it to me. The

737
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:49,199
sign said Fuck Trump. He didn't put any commentary with it.

738
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:53,480
He didn't say there's one of your people. He didn't

739
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,320
say this is hysterical. He just sent me the picture.

740
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,039
So a person who was going through I think a crisis,

741
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,760
late to the party by a decade, but going through

742
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,559
a crisis sent me a Fuck Trumps sign. That's a relationship.

743
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:21,239
I'll continue. There's possibility there, but it's messy. And when

744
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,159
people ask where do I draw the line, I just

745
00:49:23,199 --> 00:49:25,840
don't know because I don't always know on my own life,

746
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,719
I don't always know. People are so freaking complicated, aren't they?

747
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,599
Speaking of Donald Trump? Before I get to my next call.

748
00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,960
Everybody's talking about this big state fair that's been going on,

749
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,719
giant two hundred and fiftieth America Anniversary carnival that's been

750
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,639
going on, and there's spectacle of all kinds. And if

751
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,840
you look at if you look at the pictures, and

752
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,119
I brought one here to people are saying that nobody

753
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,199
showed up, and still going on at the time of

754
00:49:56,199 --> 00:50:01,320
this recording, and the photographs show that they're are I

755
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,559
don't know. There are exhibits all the way down the

756
00:50:03,679 --> 00:50:07,679
mall in front of the Capitol rather and he's put

757
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,320
up this fake arch, this fake triumphal arch, which people

758
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,760
are calling the timu Arch, and there are there's a

759
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,480
smattering of people on the lawn And so the headline

760
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:25,119
among my fellow liberals is nobody showed up. Look, it's

761
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:33,199
a disaster. Dozens of people celebrating at Trump's magafare ha. Okay,

762
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,880
I understand the emotion of it. This is lazy liberal shit.

763
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:44,639
There's no time code, there's no timestamp on images like

764
00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:48,639
these that are being posted we have to be better

765
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:51,440
than this. I have every desire to see this thing

766
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:55,679
fall flat on its face. Everything he touches dies, everything

767
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:01,559
he touches becomes algae in the reflecting pool. Right, But

768
00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:04,599
this could have been pre event, This could have been

769
00:51:05,199 --> 00:51:07,920
during a lull. It could have been You and I

770
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,320
are creatures of context, and so what happens is in

771
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,559
the instances where we look at this and we kneed

772
00:51:14,639 --> 00:51:17,400
jerk and we say ah ah ah, look nobody showed

773
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,000
up and not very well. May be true, but if

774
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,239
we can't bring receipts and we get busted, we look

775
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,559
like the idiots. And they have another piece of ammo

776
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:33,119
in their Fox News gun, and it matters. Facts matter.

777
00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:37,840
It was the other ninety eight percent page, which is

778
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,880
a high emotion progressive, liberal Democrat page, and I appreciate

779
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:49,679
their verve. They're lazy. The stuff they post is just lazy.

780
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,559
And there are many who would get mad at me

781
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:56,199
for directing criticism toward my own camp when there's so

782
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,039
much happening over here that's even worse. Blah blah blah,

783
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:02,199
not us. But how dare you, how dare you point

784
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:03,840
to the speck in our eye when they have a

785
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,079
log in their eye. That's bullshit. We are creatures of

786
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:11,920
the evidence. So it may be an accurate photograph from

787
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,880
the middle of the day, when this thing is supposed

788
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,960
to be going heyday in full swing. It might be true,

789
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,880
or this might have been taken before they even opened officially,

790
00:52:21,079 --> 00:52:24,119
or a couple minutes after. And then people show give

791
00:52:24,159 --> 00:52:27,880
me time stamps, give me some code, give me some context.

792
00:52:28,039 --> 00:52:34,480
We owe the conversation accuracy, and that's not unfair, not unfair.

793
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,960
We have a lot more conversations in the queue and

794
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:51,760
more of your calls in just a second. Thank you

795
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,559
so much for being here and for listening, and for

796
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:57,880
your support on Patreon, which makes a big difference. I

797
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,199
say it all the time, makes a big difference. So

798
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,000
maybe that just disappears you don't hear it, but it

799
00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:06,239
makes a difference. You know, we see a lot of

800
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:11,000
challenges when we are doing a content creation because more

801
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,480
and more there are platforms like YouTube that continue to

802
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:19,360
really restrict here's a great example. So i'd done this

803
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,039
recent show about the Manda Green and I played seven

804
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:26,960
second audio clips, not the song, not even a big

805
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,000
piece of the song. Seven second audio clips. YouTube gave

806
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:36,360
me a copyright strike anyway, demonetized the entire freaking show.

807
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,159
Then it put its own ads in wherever it wanted,

808
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,159
and it sent royalties for eight second clips to the

809
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,039
record companies. This is kind of what it's like to

810
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:50,519
do even editorial content online. So to help fill those gaps,

811
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,880
patrons are there. It's just huge. So if you'd like

812
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,000
to support me and the work and the show, Patreon

813
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:04,639
dot com slash Andrews with my thanks. I've got down

814
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,880
dialing in d A W N dialing in from two

815
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,880
three one. Are you there?

816
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:11,199
Speaker 8: Yes?

817
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,119
Speaker 5: Sorry, I forgot the asset Sean.

818
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 2: Sean, I'm sorry. It's an auto screen process so I'm

819
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,880
sure the speech to text was wrong and therefore I

820
00:54:21,079 --> 00:54:23,280
was as well as Sean. I'm glad you're here. Let's

821
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:24,679
talk what's on your mind.

822
00:54:26,519 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 5: Appreciate it. I'm just full disclaimer. I myself, I'm Christian,

823
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,639
not college educated by any stretch. I grew up on

824
00:54:34,679 --> 00:54:38,360
a farm, joined the military, so I'm not eloquent, and

825
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,519
I have a tendency to cuss a lot, so I

826
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:41,440
hope you're okay with that.

827
00:54:42,039 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: Well, the Lord works in mysterious ways. What's going on, Sean?

828
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:47,039
What do you want to talk about.

829
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, so I've been trying to sort of listen

830
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:58,039
to different secular atheistic podcasts and to sort of understand

831
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:00,760
your guys's position, and just so, I don't know, I

832
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,960
guess I could be better around it as a person,

833
00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:05,960
for lack of a better word. I respect that, And

834
00:55:06,119 --> 00:55:09,719
I've been listening to you. You talked to the previous

835
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:17,280
individual about you know, bigotry among Christian family members and

836
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,599
this and that. Just to kind of posit like possibly

837
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:30,679
another perspective, you believe that, say, for example, the LGBTQ

838
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,719
community has an out like, you know, because we talk

839
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,039
about society's obligation to use preferred pronouns and this and that.

840
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:41,239
You believe that the LGBTQ community has an obligation to

841
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,880
society to conform to societal standards.

842
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think societies are made up of different different groups.

843
00:55:51,159 --> 00:55:52,800
I think we can be part of a society but

844
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,880
also still be a diverse and authentic individual. Also, I'm

845
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:03,239
not sure that society has an obligation to use preferred pronouns.

846
00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:08,599
I just think it's I think it's the human thing

847
00:56:08,679 --> 00:56:12,079
to do. It doesn't cost me anything. If someone wants

848
00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:15,760
to be referred to as he him or or she,

849
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,519
her or they doesn't cost me anything.

850
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:24,199
Speaker 5: Well, but I mean sure, but by that, by that standard,

851
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:29,239
it doesn't cost the person who goes by different pronouns

852
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:34,239
to be pronoun incorrectly. It's the same thing if someone

853
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,079
if I whose preference wins.

854
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,039
Speaker 2: Out, Sean. If I say, look, I want to be

855
00:56:40,119 --> 00:56:44,719
called Tim. You know I don't like Seth. Tim's my

856
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,519
name for all practical purposes, it's how I want to

857
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:50,159
be identified. But you know my legal name is Seth

858
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,719
and Tim is nowhere on my birth certificate. The humanistic

859
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,159
thing to do is to say, no problem, Tim, I'll

860
00:56:57,199 --> 00:56:59,239
call you later. Tim, have a good day, Tim. Right,

861
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,639
It costs you, sure, And I don't think it's really

862
00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:06,360
all that different. Someone has an identifier that they prefer,

863
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,960
doesn't cost you anything to use it, and it doesn't

864
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,760
mean that I've changed your name, Sean, You're still Sean, right.

865
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 5: No, I totally agree. Do you think pronouns are identify

866
00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:22,280
or a descriptor?

867
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:26,239
Speaker 2: They can be both, aren't they? I mean, my name

868
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,000
identifies me.

869
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:30,719
Speaker 5: But I would say I would say they're strictly a descriptor.

870
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 2: In this context, because we are assigning them to ourselves.

871
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,199
I think they can be both. More than one thing

872
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:38,519
can be true at the same time.

873
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 5: Right do you assign pronouns to yourself or is it

874
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,920
simply a statement of what exists?

875
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:51,199
Speaker 2: I think either could be true. I myself identify as

876
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,079
a he. But if I realize that I am not

877
00:57:55,159 --> 00:57:57,079
comfortable with that, it's not a good fit for me.

878
00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:00,679
I then can mold that to be identified in a

879
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:03,719
way that better suits my gender identity, and then other

880
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,239
people hopefully will respect that. Again, I'm not sure where

881
00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:11,840
the point of contention is for you, Like, why, what

882
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:12,559
is it cheap?

883
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,679
Speaker 5: Go ahead? Yes, sorry, So my point of contention is,

884
00:58:18,559 --> 00:58:22,199
for example, take your previous caller and I understand he's

885
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,519
not here to defend the position and you you are

886
00:58:26,159 --> 00:58:31,639
not that person, but you know you literally gave him

887
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:36,199
the advice. Well, if this person who for the record,

888
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,400
listening to the phone call, it sounds like their aunt

889
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,519
was nothing but cordial and within the compliance with their

890
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:49,400
own belief system, which happened to disagree with the callers belief.

891
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:52,559
Speaker 2: Hang On, hang on, hang on, Sean, hang on, hang on, sean,

892
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,679
sean sean. His sister. His sister said he was mentally ill,

893
00:58:57,960 --> 00:58:59,320
tell me what's cordial about that?

894
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 5: And huh did did.

895
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:05,119
Speaker 4: I mean?

896
00:59:05,719 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 5: Up until five minutes ago the CBC recognized.

897
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:16,599
Speaker 2: Uh, hang on, hang on, Yeah, what's cordial about your

898
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:19,119
mentally ill? What's cordial about that?

899
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 5: Is it a statement? Is it a statement of fact?

900
00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:27,800
I would say, I would suggest that someone who performs

901
00:59:28,199 --> 00:59:31,840
general mutilation. Here we get state of mind.

902
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: There was so you don't believe that gender identity is

903
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:42,519
a spectrum like so many other attributes of human beings, sexuality,

904
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,480
there were so many different layers to that onion. And you,

905
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,719
in your mind, say, someone who is attempting to simply

906
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,159
live their life without harming anybody else, to be true

907
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:55,599
to themselves and live authentically. Your first thought, or one

908
00:59:55,639 --> 00:59:59,079
of your first thoughts, are, you've mutilated your body, which,

909
00:59:59,079 --> 01:00:01,320
by the way, lot of trans people do not have

910
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,840
gender reassignment right, they don't go there, so that's not

911
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,119
part of the conversation. But your next thought is, Okay,

912
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,800
you are mentally ill. Do you think that's fair, Sean,

913
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,119
Do you think it's unfair? I do think it's unfair.

914
01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:20,559
And how does it affect you in any way? Negatively?

915
01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:23,840
How does it affect you if somebody else says, I'd

916
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,920
like to be identified by this name. I'm more comfortable

917
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:30,239
expressing myself in this way. But does that take away

918
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:31,440
from you? Why do you care?

919
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,559
Speaker 5: Well? I mean, I would say personally, I care about

920
01:00:36,599 --> 01:00:42,440
its affects in society and the objective reality of truth.

921
01:00:42,679 --> 01:00:43,039
Speaker 2: Hang on.

922
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,119
Speaker 5: I prefer to live in the society where truth matters.

923
01:00:47,159 --> 01:00:49,400
I think that that is a genuinely good thing.

924
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,559
Speaker 2: So so where does your objective truth come from?

925
01:00:53,639 --> 01:00:58,159
Speaker 5: Sean Well, I mean I already I was already pretty dish,

926
01:01:00,599 --> 01:01:05,559
pretty honest, straightforward. I'm Christian. I believe that there is

927
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:07,440
a God. I believe there is an a mago day,

928
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,039
and I think that we can derive morality from that.

929
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,639
Speaker 2: Maybe you can. But I'm not a Christian, and I

930
01:01:13,639 --> 01:01:17,039
don't require Christianity. I don't require the Bible. I don't

931
01:01:17,039 --> 01:01:21,559
require any religion to have a value system or see

932
01:01:21,599 --> 01:01:24,719
the world. Nor do I believe that the Bible has

933
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:29,000
provided any kind of objective moral standard. And I know

934
01:01:29,159 --> 01:01:32,159
my Bible. So on this you and I simply disagree.

935
01:01:32,199 --> 01:01:35,320
Now you can show up by matter of declaration and say,

936
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,639
oh shit, someone say, is not living by my rules

937
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,159
set in place by my religion? But nobody else has

938
01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:46,519
to respect that. And honestly, it's your personal faith. You

939
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:49,400
have a relationship with Jesus. Knock yourself out. I'll fight

940
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,199
for your right to be a Christian. And that ends

941
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:55,760
at the tip of your nose. It ends at the

942
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:02,760
tip of your nose. Man, Sorry, it ends at the

943
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,199
tip of your nose. Right it doesn't.

944
01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:09,679
Speaker 5: So you believe, so you believe Moraley is strictly subjective

945
01:02:09,719 --> 01:02:10,519
personal preference.

946
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's subjective or there are some

947
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:19,159
objective We've had this conversation with ethicist Aaron Rabinowitz, but

948
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,440
I do see ethics as part of our evolution pro

949
01:02:23,599 --> 01:02:29,079
social behaviors. I don't think it's unethical to be LGBT,

950
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,320
and I certainly am not going to base that opinion

951
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:33,960
if I thought, I'm not going to base that in

952
01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:37,599
the Bible, because no one knows who wrote any of

953
01:02:37,639 --> 01:02:41,239
the words in that book. We've seen the apologist across

954
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,119
the board for two thousand years disagree on what the

955
01:02:44,159 --> 01:02:47,920
book actually says. And for the things that we do understand,

956
01:02:48,679 --> 01:02:53,320
there's all kinds of problematic hashtag moral behaviors and commands

957
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,360
and edicts in there. The execution of children, human sacrifice, slavery,

958
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:03,239
you know, healthology. Come on, these were primitive men who

959
01:03:03,239 --> 01:03:06,639
didn't fully understand humankind and the world.

960
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 5: Dive into all of that. But that's a little outside

961
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:09,800
the point.

962
01:03:10,039 --> 01:03:13,079
Speaker 2: If you're going to say, this is my foundation, but

963
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:17,039
the foundation has nothing but cracks in it, how can

964
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:18,639
we remove it from the conversation.

965
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 5: Well, because my foundation is based on human value. You

966
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,800
literally just said moralities derived from evolution, which means you

967
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,599
don't have a moral aught. You have a derivative of

968
01:03:31,719 --> 01:03:34,239
human behavior, which you don't get an awe from. You

969
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,519
just simply get a descriptor.

970
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 2: I think we understand the concepts of harm because we

971
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:43,559
have felt harm. We also understand hang on. So we

972
01:03:43,639 --> 01:03:49,079
also understand that pro social behaviors which benefit others, also

973
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,559
reflect back on us. We are stronger together when we

974
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:55,639
act in pro social ways, and while there are aberrations

975
01:03:55,679 --> 01:03:59,960
out there, we survive and thrive much better when we

976
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:04,679
are kinder and more moral and work together. No religion required.

977
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 5: None, Well, I mean I would argue that you just

978
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,880
smuggled in a bunch of religious terms.

979
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,519
Speaker 2: No, I didn't that critique, But religion has religion as

980
01:04:15,679 --> 01:04:17,480
hijacked presupposed moral.

981
01:04:17,559 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 5: You presuppose a moral awe, you presuppose like, let's just

982
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,119
take harm for example, Okay, let's say I agree with

983
01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:26,840
your saying, or let's just produce less harm. Okay, I

984
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,760
say less harms. Let's not mutilate children, and let's let's.

985
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: No one's arguing mutilation of children. I think we were

986
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,159
clear about that in the conversation. No one's arguing gender

987
01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:41,039
reassignment surgery. Hey, I'm going to finish this sentence sewn.

988
01:04:41,119 --> 01:04:43,440
Whether I mutual call or not, I'm going to finish

989
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:48,800
my point. Secondly, okay, go ahead. Secondly, you have just

990
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,559
assigned to Christianity morality, You've married those two. And then

991
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:56,039
you're saying, well, I snuck in religion when I was

992
01:04:56,079 --> 01:04:59,199
talking about ethics and pro social behaviors. But I don't

993
01:04:59,239 --> 01:05:03,000
think that's the case. I think religion hijacked those from humanity.

994
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:05,440
So you and I simply disagree at the end of

995
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:06,760
the day, and you and I can go around and

996
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,559
around and around. These people are taking nothing from you.

997
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:12,280
You just think they're icky and you don't want to

998
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,199
share the country or the world with them. I mean,

999
01:05:14,239 --> 01:05:16,400
be honest with yourself about that, and I think you

1000
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,480
may be using your religion to excuse the fact that

1001
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:20,519
you're uncomfortable.

1002
01:05:22,559 --> 01:05:28,719
Speaker 5: Okay, let me, do you mind if I explore that

1003
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:29,239
a little bit.

1004
01:05:29,639 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll take a few minutes. Go ahead, as long

1005
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,920
as the listeners are good, I'll watch the chat and

1006
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,400
let them vote. But keep keep talking. Let's give this

1007
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:39,960
conversation a little more oxygen.

1008
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:46,639
Speaker 5: Sure, all right, So let's let's go back to the harm.

1009
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:52,719
All right, and human flourishing. I say, human flourishing is

1010
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:01,519
it's it's derived from an understanding of human value and

1011
01:06:01,639 --> 01:06:08,159
also is carried forward through reproduction. Now, as a society,

1012
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:13,920
do you believe that I'm sorry, As a individual, do

1013
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,039
you think that there are individual obligations to society?

1014
01:06:17,559 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 2: Hang on, what do you mean by through reproduction?

1015
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 5: I think that there is an obligation that I mean

1016
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,719
because there's certainly if you want, if you simply want

1017
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:36,000
to talk about humanity and human flourishing, reproduction is a

1018
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,719
big part of that. Otherwise we cease to exist.

1019
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 2: I think if we see flourishing only as continuation, but

1020
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,400
what about a flourishing of our finite existence. Let's say

1021
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:51,079
that we lost all the ability to reproduce, and I

1022
01:06:51,159 --> 01:06:54,360
only had forty years left. Let's say I had forty

1023
01:06:54,440 --> 01:07:00,239
years left my goal to flourish, to reduce suffering and

1024
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,760
increase the joy. That that's not negated by the fact

1025
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,519
that I couldn't have kids and that there would be

1026
01:07:06,559 --> 01:07:09,280
no next generation. Flourishing could happen in the here and now,

1027
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:10,400
in the finite, could it not.

1028
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 5: I'd have a hard time getting behind that because then

1029
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,960
again it becomes your opinion versus my opinion. So if

1030
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,840
we limit it down to the finite and say humanity

1031
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,039
has another forty years left because everyone's sterile now, all

1032
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:29,719
of a sudden, human flourishing is just personal preference, because

1033
01:07:29,719 --> 01:07:33,599
there is no long term a thing. So therefore, if

1034
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:37,039
my personal preference is harming another person, you, there's no

1035
01:07:37,199 --> 01:07:38,960
possible way you can tell me I'm wrong.

1036
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 2: If I say, hey, Sean, I'm gonna buy you two

1037
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,760
hours in the spa and you're gonna go and you're

1038
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:48,960
gonna get a massage and facial and you're gonna get

1039
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,800
you're gonna get soft music, and they're gonna give you

1040
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,239
wine or beer or coffee or whatever. You you're gonna

1041
01:07:54,239 --> 01:07:57,159
be pampered out right for one hundred and twenty minutes.

1042
01:07:57,199 --> 01:08:01,360
It's on me, pal, you enjoy that. If I say, hey, Sean,

1043
01:08:01,559 --> 01:08:03,559
I'm gonna show up at your hat with a machete

1044
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,559
and I'm gonna hack your ass to pieces, tell me

1045
01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:09,760
you don't understand that one of those is harm.

1046
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:15,119
Speaker 5: One of those is harm to me and visual but

1047
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:17,840
is a harm to? Is a harm to?

1048
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:23,119
Speaker 2: I mean, grand and hang on and anybody else who

1049
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:27,479
understands what a blade does, what the nervous system does,

1050
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,319
what suffering and harm and violence is, which is all

1051
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:35,840
of us, We understand the difference between help and harm.

1052
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:39,199
Speaker 5: And my body will still be made up of the

1053
01:08:39,199 --> 01:08:42,920
same amount of molecule as it was before you inflicted

1054
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,840
this quote unquote harm to me. All right, And now

1055
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,880
let's say, for example, I mean, because at the end

1056
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,319
of the day, the only difference between versus between pain

1057
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,319
versus joy is a chemical reaction in the brain. So

1058
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,920
what though, if I say I'm sorry, so.

1059
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 2: Whatever the trigger is that causes me to feel something,

1060
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,640
so what I'm still feeling it, you know. And by

1061
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,039
the way, I find it interesting that you put quote

1062
01:09:09,119 --> 01:09:12,279
unquote around the machete attack. I mean, why would you

1063
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:17,000
put quote unquote around the around a machete attack. That's

1064
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:17,640
all I'm saying.

1065
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,079
Speaker 5: Did I put around the machete attack around harm?

1066
01:09:21,159 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 2: You're talking about harm in the context that I just

1067
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,520
gave you. Look, man, I don't want to frustrate our

1068
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,800
people because I don't run a debate show. But I

1069
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:36,760
think you and I simply disagree that morality needs Christianity.

1070
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:41,159
We disagree that anyone identifying in any other way cheats you,

1071
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,399
and I don't think society has an obligation to keep

1072
01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:47,079
you comfortable. I don't want to live in a society

1073
01:09:47,119 --> 01:09:49,800
that does this. You know that in five bucks, will

1074
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,760
gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Man, you

1075
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,840
are not the moral arbiter of what other people do.

1076
01:09:56,159 --> 01:09:59,319
And the more we learn about the wide, wild spectrum

1077
01:09:59,359 --> 01:10:02,800
of humanity, the more we see there is diversity, there

1078
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:07,119
are new ideas, and we should celebrate the spectrum of

1079
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:09,399
people where they are and who they are. You know,

1080
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,279
you would want someone to respect your right to identify

1081
01:10:12,399 --> 01:10:14,399
as a Christian and to be who you are and

1082
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,640
live your faith. Knock yourself out. They're simply asking for

1083
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:22,920
the same equal respect and return. That's not a big ask, Sean, Okay,

1084
01:10:23,119 --> 01:10:24,000
that's not a big ask.

1085
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,079
Speaker 5: I will one thousand percent agree with you that society

1086
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:34,239
does not owe anybody anything. So but anyway, a good conversation, man.

1087
01:10:34,399 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, Hope you have a good day. See ya. Yep,

1088
01:10:39,239 --> 01:10:41,239
I'm looking at the jet all right. All right, how

1089
01:10:41,239 --> 01:10:43,439
are we doing? No, we didn't shatter at each other.

1090
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,880
I mean, he obviously, I'm I'm momentum, guys, So I'm

1091
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,720
listening for specific things and trying to jump in. I

1092
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,680
do some of this when I host a co host

1093
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,520
on the Line, which is a debate show, and I'm

1094
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,039
given the opportunity to be their host or co host

1095
01:10:58,079 --> 01:11:01,960
there once or twice a month, and they take they

1096
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,039
take calls from a great many theists, and you know,

1097
01:11:05,119 --> 01:11:07,560
we go back and forth. It's a balancing act. You know,

1098
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,920
you want you want to be able to give the

1099
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,279
conversation oxygen, but you also want to make sure that

1100
01:11:13,319 --> 01:11:15,079
we're not getting off into the weeds and we're not

1101
01:11:15,199 --> 01:11:18,039
driving everybody who is listening and watching crazy. So I

1102
01:11:18,039 --> 01:11:21,079
did my best with that, But I mean to hear

1103
01:11:21,159 --> 01:11:25,520
that perspective and to push back and challenge. I think, yeah,

1104
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:30,239
spread some light, spread some heat, and people like this

1105
01:11:30,319 --> 01:11:33,399
audience and that person in a Shawn's audience. Whatever that

1106
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:37,520
might be Seawn's circle, they can design for themselves. David

1107
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,600
is dialing in from five six two. Thanks for your patience.

1108
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 7: What's up, hey, sir?

1109
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:46,239
Speaker 2: Welcome.

1110
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:54,399
Speaker 7: So I've got an idea that or let me just

1111
01:11:55,239 --> 01:11:57,960
I'm a little nervous. I've never called into a show before.

1112
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:00,159
Speaker 2: You're fine this.

1113
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 7: I'm convinced, but trying to stay open minded that all

1114
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:13,159
living things require the death and suffering of other living

1115
01:12:13,159 --> 01:12:16,880
things to survive. I think that this is the nature

1116
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,399
of living things, you know, with the exception for living

1117
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:27,479
things that do chemosynthesis and photosynthesis. But I think this

1118
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,319
is just the nature of life. And I think it's

1119
01:12:31,079 --> 01:12:33,800
pretty crazy that it is the nature of life and

1120
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:39,359
accept it. I also genuinely think that the human species

1121
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:46,119
has potential to overcome this, this being causing suffering and

1122
01:12:46,199 --> 01:12:51,600
death to other living things to survive. Does does that

1123
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,800
train of thought comport with reality?

1124
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: Well, we may be beyond my pay grade. I'm having

1125
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,520
a hard time thinking of a great many living things.

1126
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,199
I mean, the squirrel who is harvesting the acorn is

1127
01:13:04,199 --> 01:13:07,000
not causing suffering to the tree?

1128
01:13:07,239 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 9: Is he? No?

1129
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:24,359
Speaker 7: But I would say that it is the acorn was

1130
01:13:24,399 --> 01:13:29,840
at one point living and is now becoming sustenance for

1131
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:30,720
another living thing.

1132
01:13:33,159 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 2: But the acorn is not a sentient creature, right. The

1133
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,319
bee that is spreading pollen from flower to flower is

1134
01:13:42,399 --> 01:13:47,680
you know, pollination does not cause suffering. So I'm not

1135
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,279
trying to be too pedantic, but I think if I

1136
01:13:50,319 --> 01:13:53,439
can show you a couple of little pinholes in the theory,

1137
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,359
then the rest of the theory may reveal itself is

1138
01:13:56,720 --> 01:14:01,680
more problematic. I'm not convinced at all that we all

1139
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,960
must cause suffering to survive and thrive ourselves. We certainly

1140
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,279
do see that, we see it throughout the wild, and

1141
01:14:08,399 --> 01:14:12,560
we have seen human beings perpetrating suffering for our own gain,

1142
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,840
et cetera. But I don't think that's true at all

1143
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:18,840
across the board. I think it's case by case, situation

1144
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:20,199
by situation.

1145
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,119
Speaker 7: Right, And I do agree with you, like I was saying,

1146
01:14:26,359 --> 01:14:30,640
there's organisms at the bottom of the ocean that do chemosynthesis,

1147
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:35,159
and of course plants are doing photo synthesis, and you know,

1148
01:14:35,239 --> 01:14:39,239
we get milk, some towels, or honey from the hives,

1149
01:14:39,359 --> 01:14:44,560
and that's not ultimately causing suffering or death to that being.

1150
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:55,359
That's producing it, But on I would say generally I

1151
01:14:55,399 --> 01:14:59,960
would accept that that's the case, well, being open minded

1152
01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:04,760
to understand that, Oh maybe I'm just looking at the

1153
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:08,560
big picture too much. Like I said, I still understand

1154
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,399
that there are logism through that.

1155
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 10: Well.

1156
01:15:11,039 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 2: An open mind, I think is important to this type

1157
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:18,159
of discussion. And as we scan the horizon for examples

1158
01:15:18,399 --> 01:15:25,239
of how we enhance ourselves and evolve ourselves and reproduce ourselves,

1159
01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:28,159
I think we can ask ourselves the question has suffering

1160
01:15:28,199 --> 01:15:31,239
been involved or has flourishing been involved? That we actually

1161
01:15:31,319 --> 01:15:35,199
done something that makes things and people and other creatures better.

1162
01:15:35,359 --> 01:15:37,640
Because I think there are many examples of that. It

1163
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,079
is an interesting question, David. I'll let the chat take

1164
01:15:40,119 --> 01:15:44,600
over on that one. Okay, all right, Thanks appreciate you

1165
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:50,520
calling very much. Thank you. Clarice is dialing in. Welcome

1166
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:55,079
to the show. Thanks for waiting. Clarice. Are you there, Yes,

1167
01:15:55,199 --> 01:15:55,520
I am.

1168
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:56,159
Speaker 6: Can you hear me?

1169
01:15:56,359 --> 01:15:59,039
Speaker 2: I can? Indeed, let's talk what's on your mind?

1170
01:16:01,159 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 6: Well, I want to thank you for providing an open

1171
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:08,880
discussion for such matters so that people can bring open

1172
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,880
themselves up to talking to other people, and by providing

1173
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,840
a forum where argument is not the point.

1174
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:20,119
Speaker 2: Which matters in question? Forgive me for interrupting, but what

1175
01:16:20,199 --> 01:16:22,439
matters are are we into here?

1176
01:16:24,239 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 6: Well, I myself am a trends trans woman. I am

1177
01:16:30,039 --> 01:16:35,199
married to another trans woman. I transitioned. I'm now seventy.

1178
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:42,560
I transitioned about us God about ten years ago. And

1179
01:16:43,239 --> 01:16:49,880
I have my background involves being in my youth a

1180
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,920
leader in one of the major denominations in the United States.

1181
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,399
I even led a work camp to Alaska to double

1182
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:01,840
the size of a church and sold an Alaska. So

1183
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:07,880
it's not like I hadn't dedicated myself to being upright

1184
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,159
and righteous, as many would define it. I also have

1185
01:17:12,359 --> 01:17:17,800
the experience of having the uh the I having a

1186
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,359
lived a life that where I've tried not to be

1187
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:25,479
what I am, and that led me to an identity

1188
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:31,760
crisis of such enormous mass that really it was me

1189
01:17:32,159 --> 01:17:34,800
or that bridge I was thinking about jumping off of.

1190
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:38,560
And you know, it occurred to me, well, what happened

1191
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:41,079
to break everything? But your brain's still there, and you

1192
01:17:41,159 --> 01:17:44,079
know it's still full of poop, So why not deal

1193
01:17:44,119 --> 01:17:47,840
with your deal with your brain first? Get everything organized,

1194
01:17:48,279 --> 01:17:51,359
and then come at people at a reasonable level. And

1195
01:17:51,399 --> 01:17:54,880
that you know, I've been successful. I mean I worked

1196
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:59,359
in businesses for fifty or fifty years, sold software all

1197
01:17:59,399 --> 01:18:03,119
across the world world, So it didn't hurt me that

1198
01:18:03,199 --> 01:18:05,720
I was trans as long as I was able to

1199
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:10,720
be employed, it didn't change my ability to communicate. One.

1200
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,680
I would give some points to people from my own

1201
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:17,640
personal experience. I do not I'm not a fussy person

1202
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:23,439
about about pronouns, and what I to say people is

1203
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,399
call me by my first name, because every trans person,

1204
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:31,479
every person of diversity, if they're making a big deal

1205
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:35,119
out of pronouns, it's because you're not making a big

1206
01:18:35,239 --> 01:18:39,920
enough deal out of who they are. And so arguing

1207
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,640
over pronouns is a little bit like arguing over ego.

1208
01:18:44,199 --> 01:18:48,199
Ego is what usually presents us our fears into the world. Well,

1209
01:18:48,239 --> 01:18:51,119
if you don't, if you don't honor me, then I'm

1210
01:18:51,159 --> 01:18:54,279
not I don't have leverage over you. I look at

1211
01:18:54,319 --> 01:18:58,159
something completely different. How do we not how do we

1212
01:18:58,199 --> 01:19:02,119
talk to the person on the other side, How do

1213
01:19:02,199 --> 01:19:07,600
we talk not to their mask but to behind the mask?

1214
01:19:09,079 --> 01:19:11,560
And in each case, when we sometimes look at religion,

1215
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:15,920
religion sometimes just you know, we've got cognitive dissonance, we've

1216
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,159
got anxiety, and it just adds to both of those

1217
01:19:19,279 --> 01:19:24,880
issues and makes us make decisions that sound confused. We

1218
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:28,119
call up or we're talking to other people, and most

1219
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:31,039
of the time we're arguing about how broken the world

1220
01:19:31,239 --> 01:19:35,920
is rather than seeing ourselves in other people. And so

1221
01:19:36,239 --> 01:19:40,760
I really am I'm very thrilled to see that you

1222
01:19:41,119 --> 01:19:48,239
undertake these conversations on all different types of discussion levels.

1223
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,800
I'm also I have a kind of a different point

1224
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:56,359
of view about Christianity and its beginnings and some people,

1225
01:19:56,399 --> 01:20:02,640
most people are followed Paul's Paul's respectives on that, I've

1226
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:05,600
kind of felt like Paul was doing his own thing.

1227
01:20:06,319 --> 01:20:09,680
And when I think of how the person that Paul

1228
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:18,000
says he follows spoke. For that person, behavior was equaled

1229
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:25,119
your faith, And that was based on Habakook Spy, which

1230
01:20:25,159 --> 01:20:29,199
is one of the smaller books of the Old Testament,

1231
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:32,159
but in that it says that faith is based on

1232
01:20:32,239 --> 01:20:35,279
the law, and not just the law, but the spirit

1233
01:20:35,319 --> 01:20:38,680
of the law. We live in a country in America

1234
01:20:39,239 --> 01:20:43,279
where the law we have people fighting over how we

1235
01:20:43,359 --> 01:20:46,920
formulate laws rather than figuring out how to live in

1236
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:50,680
the spirit of our laws in the United States and

1237
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,239
the spirit of our spiritual laws. If you are a

1238
01:20:53,319 --> 01:20:57,960
spiritual person, or if you're a moral person. So how

1239
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:02,720
do we see light in another person? What is light?

1240
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:06,199
Light is what we see in the behavior of other people.

1241
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:11,079
When you see a person who you can see that

1242
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:14,359
they bring peace to an argument, that they sottle issues,

1243
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:16,840
that they don't get into the arguments in the first place,

1244
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:21,079
you're seeing light in their actions. And so for me,

1245
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:27,840
when I see a person with your balance, your ability

1246
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,960
to listen and listen positively, it's very inspirational.

1247
01:21:32,039 --> 01:21:35,199
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, well you're very kind. I thank you

1248
01:21:35,279 --> 01:21:38,199
for that. Yeah, I don't know. We can talk about Paul,

1249
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:42,600
who I find tremendously problematic. I do, like I think

1250
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,000
when you say light, much of that I think speaks

1251
01:21:45,239 --> 01:21:48,039
to attitude and intent, which is the mind and heart.

1252
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,640
And there are people, often even with those with bad ideas,

1253
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,640
who are operating in good faith. And that's a lot

1254
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:58,840
different than somebody who is coming at you with malice

1255
01:21:59,119 --> 01:22:04,359
or you know, some ill intent. I'm also with you,

1256
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:07,479
and this is a bit unpopular among some of my

1257
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,720
fellow lefties, and I'm a Lefty. I'll just stay all right.

1258
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,359
But you know, some people, I feel like pronouns in

1259
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:17,399
a lot of ways, especially in some of these forward

1260
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:23,760
facing broadcasts, become a bit of it. There's gatekeeping going on.

1261
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:27,680
So if someone calls in but they don't give a

1262
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:32,479
pronoun or they don't want to acknowledge a pronoun at

1263
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,159
the beginning of whatever other conversation they wanted to have,

1264
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:39,720
the host will shut them down and say, oh, we're

1265
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,399
not even going to validate you. We're not going to

1266
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:45,119
have this conversation unless you say that, you know, unless

1267
01:22:45,159 --> 01:22:47,359
you choose one, or we're going to ridicule you for

1268
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:50,359
not choosing one. And I find that's a bit dogmatic.

1269
01:22:51,039 --> 01:22:54,119
I think it often happens for noble reasons, because we

1270
01:22:54,199 --> 01:22:57,000
want to advocate for those who have been marginalized and

1271
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:00,000
we want to say we see those who are identified

1272
01:23:00,159 --> 01:23:02,600
in different ways. But I don't like the fact that

1273
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,920
we can become very dogmatic. If somebody says, I'm not

1274
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,479
going to go there, I can step over that pebble

1275
01:23:10,159 --> 01:23:13,680
to maybe get into a deeper, larger conversation. Is that

1276
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,399
also fair clarice from your perspective?

1277
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:21,760
Speaker 6: I think so. I'll tell you why, and that is

1278
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:28,479
that I don't think the main point is that if

1279
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:32,520
you're trans or intersects. You really don't have any control

1280
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:36,720
over what's happened to you. It's not a choice. It's

1281
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,680
something that it's made on a high if it's made

1282
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:45,479
in any kind of realm above just our cellular level,

1283
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,880
which obviously it is. The brain is affected by transsexual

1284
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,760
lloy to have different sections of the brain which are

1285
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:57,279
of different size, and that determines how often in the

1286
01:23:57,359 --> 01:24:03,520
last trimester, the effect of hormones cause a mismatch between

1287
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:09,359
the size of these these these organs within the brain,

1288
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:13,000
these glands within the brain, which actually are the best

1289
01:24:13,039 --> 01:24:20,000
determinant of what gender you will later represent and later

1290
01:24:20,079 --> 01:24:24,279
live out, and men those structures are larger, and females

1291
01:24:24,279 --> 01:24:27,960
they are smaller, and then trans people they're often slightly

1292
01:24:28,359 --> 01:24:33,279
in between. And so because of that, it's not uncommon

1293
01:24:33,359 --> 01:24:36,560
for a trans person to start out their life gendered

1294
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:40,960
by their mother by because she sees them come out

1295
01:24:41,199 --> 01:24:44,239
and then says, oh, you're this or you're that. But

1296
01:24:44,359 --> 01:24:50,600
then as they get older, they as their neuroplasticity expands

1297
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:53,399
into your twenty six, twenty five or twenty six, it

1298
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:57,079
keeps going on, so you're when you're born. Children don't

1299
01:24:57,119 --> 01:25:01,760
even see, they hear they feel. So for the first

1300
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:07,319
ten years of a child's life, it's going on pattern identification.

1301
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:13,640
The most important thing to a child is friends, is security,

1302
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:19,319
and rewards. If you are in your childhood and you

1303
01:25:19,359 --> 01:25:24,159
are affected by a family that threatens any of those three,

1304
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,239
you're going to carry that into your adult life and

1305
01:25:27,279 --> 01:25:30,000
it will see in you when you were when you're

1306
01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:36,720
an adult. But neuroplasticity accounts for much of the developmental

1307
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:42,479
issues that we see of people recognizing that they are

1308
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:47,760
trans later on, because the longer you've got it, the

1309
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,119
more you get irritated by it. At first, you try,

1310
01:25:50,399 --> 01:25:54,920
you try to fit in, but your brain is doing

1311
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:58,920
what I call cross talk. You're saying to yourself, you're trying.

1312
01:25:59,079 --> 01:26:02,680
You will take situations you're in and explain them to

1313
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:07,079
other people in order to be In my case, I tried.

1314
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,399
I'm born with a male body at that point, but

1315
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:17,199
my my, my thinking, my reactions to things were for feminine,

1316
01:26:17,319 --> 01:26:19,960
and so what I tried to do is I tried

1317
01:26:20,039 --> 01:26:27,159
to justify by over over overcompensating for even even as

1318
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:32,199
in that in that situation, I had to be stronger

1319
01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:38,319
than strong in order to reduce my risk of being outed.

1320
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:40,920
Right and that happened to me even the very first

1321
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:43,640
time I was in a bathroom and a changing room

1322
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:47,479
in elementary school when I'm we were taking off off

1323
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:49,720
all our clothes and I'm surrounded by all these boys,

1324
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:54,600
but they're obvious accrudements, and I'm sitting there and completely

1325
01:26:54,760 --> 01:27:00,600
totally totally freaked out right, So in my fault, my fault.

1326
01:27:01,239 --> 01:27:05,399
I even had complications that came after that because I

1327
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,880
lived in a very religious family with a very religious mother,

1328
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:12,840
you know, and this mother came in, she would hunt

1329
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:14,800
me around the house when I was a young person.

1330
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:17,720
She came out eventually and beat me for about fifteen

1331
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:21,439
to twenty minutes with my father's belt. My father had

1332
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:23,800
been in the same room with me and my brother

1333
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,640
at one point and said, if either of you touch

1334
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:29,800
your mother or have anything to do with your mother,

1335
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:33,680
that's not It'll be the day that I lovingly strangle

1336
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:38,640
you to death. Okay. So I've seen the face of

1337
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:44,439
religious justification, of being just in yourself, of walking around

1338
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:49,039
thinking that you were God's angel. But I also realized

1339
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:54,920
that that isn't God in them. It's misunderstanding, it's confusion,

1340
01:27:55,640 --> 01:28:01,520
and if you are trans you are not. Nobody wants

1341
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,720
to be trans. You are, you have to deal with it.

1342
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:08,840
And so that's what's missing in the United States to

1343
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:13,760
a great, great deal, is that people don't understand the

1344
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:16,840
nature of it because people are on our side are

1345
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:20,079
not explaining it. It's not a choice. You can't choose

1346
01:28:20,119 --> 01:28:24,520
this stuff. You wouldn't choose to be treated by like dirt,

1347
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,079
by people who have no experience with your situation, or

1348
01:28:29,119 --> 01:28:32,399
to walk into a place and have somebody. I mean,

1349
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,279
I would much rather look walk into a place dressed

1350
01:28:35,359 --> 01:28:39,720
like the nines, looking wonderful, and then have everybody treat

1351
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:43,640
me like a normal person, you know, And that's what

1352
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:46,840
most trans people are all about. They want to be

1353
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:51,560
treated as normal people. And just a little you point

1354
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:53,920
into my life. I live in Germany for thirty four

1355
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:59,039
years now. Nobody makes a difference in Germany if your

1356
01:28:59,159 --> 01:29:01,800
trans are not. I live in a little farm community.

1357
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:07,239
Everybody treats me, treats my wife, treats any other transperson

1358
01:29:07,319 --> 01:29:12,199
in this little dwarf like we are their best fies.

1359
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:17,079
We are all cut from the same same cells, from

1360
01:29:17,159 --> 01:29:20,560
the same cloth, and so it's hard for me to

1361
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:25,199
go through this. I feel sorry for you. In a

1362
01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:29,079
way because you listen to people say, well, don't you

1363
01:29:29,119 --> 01:29:31,960
believe this, don't you believe that? Don't believe that? Who

1364
01:29:32,039 --> 01:29:33,680
is the judge?

1365
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1366
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:38,439
Speaker 6: Why do we take the time to judge rather than love?

1367
01:29:39,359 --> 01:29:42,079
Speaker 2: I'll tell you this. I've had a lot of people

1368
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:47,560
invoking God to judge and be awful, and I've had,

1369
01:29:48,399 --> 01:29:51,560
you know, with one exception, I've never met a trans

1370
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:55,640
person who is anything other than kind and generous and wonderful.

1371
01:29:56,079 --> 01:29:58,880
And you know, doesn't it come down to the human

1372
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:02,479
heart and what does it take away from me? Right?

1373
01:30:03,199 --> 01:30:06,960
So I appreciate your heart so much and you're like me,

1374
01:30:07,119 --> 01:30:08,920
I mean, as coming out of my faith. I was

1375
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,359
a late bloomer, but I kind of found my own voice.

1376
01:30:11,399 --> 01:30:13,920
It sounds like you got there eventually too, and that

1377
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:16,840
inspires me. And I'm thankful for your voice on the

1378
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:18,960
show today. Anything else before I move on?

1379
01:30:21,239 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 6: No, just I would say to anybody who's out meeting

1380
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:28,399
with other people, do not argue with somebody. Try to

1381
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,439
find what you have in common with somebody. If you

1382
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:34,560
want to move them in a different direction, just say

1383
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,399
to them, have you ever isn't it funny how? And

1384
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:41,319
then you can mention something that means something to you.

1385
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:45,000
But if you don't, if that other person doesn't, doesn't

1386
01:30:45,279 --> 01:30:50,479
identify with you when you say, isn't it funny? How

1387
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:55,079
if you don't know how to bring somebody else close

1388
01:30:55,119 --> 01:30:59,000
to you without being in conflict, then you're looking at

1389
01:30:59,039 --> 01:31:02,520
the world is broken, and the world isn't broken. You

1390
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,159
can look at people as facts, you're still being a judge.

1391
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:11,840
When you realize that everybody has has suffered as children

1392
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:15,840
and learned to be what they are as adults, then

1393
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:18,720
you'll all know that we all have reasons to be

1394
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:23,399
the way we are, but we are all of the

1395
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:27,840
same unity. We're all of the same body, spirit, mind.

1396
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:31,479
We may not all have the same ideas or beliefs,

1397
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,720
but we're all coming from one place. And that's why.

1398
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:39,640
If there's only two two commandments and you and that

1399
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:45,760
that that that wise person in Israel once said, love

1400
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,720
your God and love the other person exactly as you

1401
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:54,319
would love yourself. That means unity. You have to see

1402
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:59,840
everyone else as you as an expression of what you

1403
01:32:00,119 --> 01:32:03,119
have or don't have. Yes, but you do not have

1404
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,279
a right to sit in the judgment seat and say

1405
01:32:06,319 --> 01:32:11,319
to someone else you're invalid because we don't have that choice.

1406
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:16,039
We are born, and everybody who who's hearers, who's live,

1407
01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:19,800
was successful. Their parents all were successful. They made it.

1408
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:25,039
We were babies. Yeah, we're all successful. Well so the

1409
01:32:25,079 --> 01:32:29,840
people who weren't successful, they don't live. So bring life

1410
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:32,479
to this life. That's what we should do, because that's

1411
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:33,520
what life is all about.

1412
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 2: Be very kind to call the show. Thank you so

1413
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:39,039
much for an eloquence conversation. We appreciate you.

1414
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:40,760
Speaker 7: Thank you all right, see you later.

1415
01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 2: Kat has not howled in an hour. That's good. No

1416
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:48,399
one has approached across the line of my security camera.

1417
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:52,760
That's good. My boundaries have not been violated by the way.

1418
01:32:53,119 --> 01:32:56,199
A lot of people enjoy this little piece of trivia.

1419
01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:00,880
So after we had some little church and her kids

1420
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:05,159
ring the doorbell, and it was a windy day, and

1421
01:33:05,439 --> 01:33:08,439
I went out front. The door was pushed shut by

1422
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:13,760
the wind and broke Linus's arm. His'll paw in two places.

1423
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,560
And that was a big you know, three months in

1424
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:20,960
a cast, it was a nightmare. I was like, well,

1425
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:24,840
no soliciting signs hardly ever work when you put them

1426
01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:28,239
in your yard or on your door. In fact, salespeople

1427
01:33:28,279 --> 01:33:30,840
when they come by those who are not family members

1428
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,520
or neighbors or who as someone you would welcome those

1429
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:39,439
the signs are invisible. So I had my own sign made,

1430
01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:42,239
and also I brought it up for the YouTube viewers,

1431
01:33:42,239 --> 01:33:44,880
but I'll read it for the audio listeners. It says

1432
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:48,239
no soliciting at the top, and then it says, if

1433
01:33:48,279 --> 01:33:52,399
we wanted it, we've already bought it. We've heard about Jesus,

1434
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:56,479
we know how we're voting. The doorbell agitates the dogs

1435
01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:00,920
and we're probably watching Netflix. If you're not a friend, neighbor,

1436
01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:05,640
package delivery or selling the mints, we are not interested.

1437
01:34:06,319 --> 01:34:12,319
Thank you, well, I please with myself over. I kind

1438
01:34:12,359 --> 01:34:15,560
of am And it's amazing because as I'm in the

1439
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:19,760
studio and I'm watching the monitor with a camera, how

1440
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:23,119
many solicitors and they're selling everything from weed control to

1441
01:34:23,399 --> 01:34:28,960
alarm systems, to lawn com or whatever you know, roof repair,

1442
01:34:29,239 --> 01:34:32,840
gut ring or insurance. Who knows what they're selling. You

1443
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,680
can see they walk up and their finger goes out

1444
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:38,439
to the doorbell, and then they see the sign and

1445
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:41,319
they stoop down to read it, and they stand up

1446
01:34:41,359 --> 01:34:44,439
and they blink once or twice. They either smile or

1447
01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:48,560
they just look blank, turn around and walk away. I

1448
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:53,800
feel a sense of real satisfaction, real satisfaction about that.

1449
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:58,479
So anyway, cav hey, you can make these. You just

1450
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:03,279
go and say like, homemade sign, a small metal sign,

1451
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:06,560
six by nine, and you have it made and then

1452
01:35:06,600 --> 01:35:09,439
they ship it to you from Etsy or whatever, and

1453
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:11,439
you put a little string or a chord on it

1454
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:13,920
and just hang it on your front door. It's awesome.

1455
01:35:14,079 --> 01:35:16,199
And the neighbors even know about it because when they

1456
01:35:16,199 --> 01:35:19,920
stop by, they're like, set's got an awesome sign. I'm

1457
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:22,159
so glad you are here and listening in part of

1458
01:35:22,199 --> 01:35:25,880
this community, and so glad for my callers, with many

1459
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:36,199
more to come, taking a whole bunch of phone calls

1460
01:35:36,279 --> 01:35:39,399
on whatever topic is on your mind. On this week's

1461
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:46,239
extended broadcast, let's talk to Gail, who was dialing in

1462
01:35:46,279 --> 01:35:49,439
from seven to zero two. Hi, Gail, thanks for calling.

1463
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:49,840
What's up?

1464
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:52,000
Speaker 9: Hi?

1465
01:35:52,359 --> 01:35:57,359
Speaker 11: Do you know the YouTube series Beyond the Believing Mind?

1466
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,119
Speaker 2: Beyond the Believing Mind? No, I don't think I've ever

1467
01:36:01,159 --> 01:36:03,159
heard of it.

1468
01:36:03,159 --> 01:36:08,239
Speaker 11: It is absolutely I'm a fan, and it's absolutely exactly

1469
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:12,000
what you teach, only with all the details and done

1470
01:36:12,119 --> 01:36:17,880
in a very very non judgmental way, but just based

1471
01:36:17,920 --> 01:36:20,520
on facts. A lot of it's based on Stainosa, but

1472
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:24,920
it's just the facts, and it talks a lot about

1473
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:27,600
things that would be right out of your value.

1474
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 2: Wick Beyond the Believing Mind, Okay.

1475
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:37,920
Speaker 11: I usually end up watching your videos after they happen.

1476
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:42,680
I watched them a great deal, but I happened because

1477
01:36:43,359 --> 01:36:46,319
I have a little empathy with you right now because

1478
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:50,399
we had a flood in our house that is finally, finally,

1479
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:55,079
six months later, finally recovered. But I fell and got

1480
01:36:55,079 --> 01:36:59,319
an injury, and I'm old and I'm suckond fround of

1481
01:36:59,319 --> 01:37:02,239
the television because that's about all I can can't handle

1482
01:37:02,319 --> 01:37:04,840
right now. And I would just put it into the

1483
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:08,399
comments sections that I don't have access to it because

1484
01:37:08,399 --> 01:37:09,239
I'm out my computer.

1485
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:12,920
Speaker 2: I'm glad you called Beyond the Believing Mind. All right, Well,

1486
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,159
when the dust settles here, I'll make a note to

1487
01:37:15,199 --> 01:37:15,920
go check it out.

1488
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 11: Okay, Gail's I think it's going to make you happy

1489
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:22,119
and keep you busy for quite a while. And I'm

1490
01:37:22,159 --> 01:37:24,520
hoping that a couple of the listeners. You have some

1491
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:29,199
really interesting listeners just before me, and one of them,

1492
01:37:29,399 --> 01:37:32,359
I hope is hearing this so that they look for

1493
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,760
too This is exactly the kind of thing that will

1494
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,680
cause people to start to think. And that's what the

1495
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,359
thinking atheist is all about, right, all right.

1496
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:46,359
Speaker 2: Beyond the believing mind. Nice pitch, Thanks for the call,

1497
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:51,039
Have a wonderful day and get well soon. Okay, thank you,

1498
01:37:51,199 --> 01:37:54,760
all right, bye. Gail and I we have similar stories

1499
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:57,880
because whenever I was pushing the water out the front door,

1500
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:03,399
I slipped and I broke the knuckle of the middle

1501
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:06,439
finger of my left hand, and I just stopped wearing

1502
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:10,279
the brace. But it's hard to bend, and I guess

1503
01:38:10,399 --> 01:38:14,279
it takes seven months eight months to fully heal. And

1504
01:38:14,319 --> 01:38:17,319
I don't know why, but I for a while, I

1505
01:38:17,359 --> 01:38:19,920
was just walking around like this all the time with

1506
01:38:20,079 --> 01:38:22,199
a It wasn't a cast, but it was like a

1507
01:38:22,239 --> 01:38:25,800
middle finger metal brace. I just walked around flipping everybody off.

1508
01:38:26,239 --> 01:38:29,199
But it's, man, it's just a slow heel, one of

1509
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:30,760
those things. I don't know if it's slow because of

1510
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:34,399
my advanced age. I don't know if that's true or not.

1511
01:38:35,479 --> 01:38:39,239
A couple of notes about shows. I was just invited

1512
01:38:39,279 --> 01:38:44,560
to appear on a series called World of Views. They

1513
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:48,439
say they talk to religious leaders, skeptics, authors, creators, activist

1514
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:53,760
public intellectuals. Ha, I'm not that, but they want to

1515
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,119
talk to me about my journey out of Christianity. So

1516
01:38:57,319 --> 01:39:01,439
I don't know if they're religious or not. But I

1517
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:04,239
ask around to a few other activists who had heard

1518
01:39:04,239 --> 01:39:07,000
of them, and they say they think they're legit and

1519
01:39:07,039 --> 01:39:09,920
it's not an ambush. So apparently I will be one

1520
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:14,399
of their guests. Moving forward, I am releasing and for

1521
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:18,600
my audio listeners it will already be out a fun

1522
01:39:18,680 --> 01:39:23,000
broadcast about Manda Greens, which are those song lyrics that

1523
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:25,479
you and I hear, but we hear them wrong, and

1524
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,039
we learn them wrong, and we remember them wrong, and

1525
01:39:28,079 --> 01:39:31,199
we sing them wrong on the order of decades. And

1526
01:39:31,279 --> 01:39:34,760
you're thinking of a song right now, already in your brain,

1527
01:39:35,119 --> 01:39:37,439
a song where you're like, I still don't know what

1528
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:40,840
it says, but I've been singing this way right, Excuse

1529
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:46,560
me while I kiss this guy down Hendrix, right. And

1530
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:49,520
there's tons of them, and they have become known as

1531
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:53,000
Monda Greenes. So as a break from all of these

1532
01:39:53,079 --> 01:39:57,560
heavy topics religion and politics, I did a whole show

1533
01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:00,720
where I play nothing but clips. We get into some

1534
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:04,359
brain science about why our pattern seeking minds are filling

1535
01:40:04,359 --> 01:40:08,800
in blanks, often incorrectly and in very entertaining ways. We

1536
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:14,439
learn things wrong, and it's fascinating science and it's a fun,

1537
01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:17,760
fun show. So if you are watching in video, it

1538
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:20,239
comes out in two days, and if you are listening

1539
01:40:20,239 --> 01:40:22,800
in podcast, it should be one of the previous shows.

1540
01:40:22,840 --> 01:40:26,000
Just scroll back in your podcast app. And it's called

1541
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:31,479
it's called I'm Farting Carrots, mishard Lyrics and the Mind.

1542
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:36,399
And that comes from a Selena Gomez song called fourteen Carrot.

1543
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:41,920
She's singing, I'm fourteen Carrot, but people are singing I'm

1544
01:40:42,039 --> 01:40:46,319
farting Carrots. I thought, what a great show name. So

1545
01:40:46,399 --> 01:40:50,479
it's called I'm Farting Carrots, Raising the bar, taking the highway.

1546
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:57,319
It's a classy broadcast, is it not farting carrots? Let's

1547
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:02,359
take a look at you doing good time? I've got time,

1548
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,800
and so I figure maybe we'll just continue to share

1549
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:08,319
the moments and fellowship in the Lord. I've got two

1550
01:41:08,399 --> 01:41:09,960
one six high. What's your name?

1551
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 10: Oh?

1552
01:41:11,199 --> 01:41:13,119
Speaker 5: Come back.

1553
01:41:13,159 --> 01:41:16,039
Speaker 3: In the early eighties, when I first met my fiance

1554
01:41:16,359 --> 01:41:20,079
and his family, his sister who he was very close to,

1555
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:25,319
joined a religious group, a covenant community, a very Catholic

1556
01:41:25,399 --> 01:41:28,920
Covenant community that was in the news when a Supreme

1557
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:34,359
Court justice got nominated. So anyway, she's still in that community.

1558
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:37,800
But when she joined it, my husband was very concerned

1559
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:40,239
about his sister. And I did some research on the group,

1560
01:41:40,319 --> 01:41:44,079
and I got some information from the Cult Information Network,

1561
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,720
and I shared that with my you know, at the

1562
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:52,279
time future father in law, who was a very very

1563
01:41:52,279 --> 01:41:56,039
intelligent man, and his and you know, we were expressed

1564
01:41:56,039 --> 01:41:59,319
concern about my sister in law's mental health joining this

1565
01:41:59,479 --> 01:42:02,560
kind of extra dream group. That kind of scared us.

1566
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:08,399
And he said back, he says, you know, her problem

1567
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:12,720
is genetic. Her mother was very religious and belonged to

1568
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:17,359
an intense community, which which which she dristed away from

1569
01:42:17,399 --> 01:42:19,840
after she married me. So there's nothing we can do

1570
01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:22,680
about this because it's genetic. And I thought that sounded

1571
01:42:23,039 --> 01:42:26,600
really crazy to me. But I went on to study

1572
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:32,760
psychology and I came across the twins separated at birth

1573
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:38,319
Information and found out that, you know, back before birth control,

1574
01:42:38,399 --> 01:42:41,119
there were a lot more children available for adults than

1575
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:45,640
homes wanting children, and it was pretty routine to separate

1576
01:42:45,880 --> 01:42:50,279
identical twins because twins were most likely to be returned

1577
01:42:50,319 --> 01:42:52,520
to the orphanage because infant twins are hard to take

1578
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:56,119
care of, so they would separate them. And then the

1579
01:42:56,199 --> 01:42:58,600
researches in the in the in the in the like

1580
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:02,359
in the eighties and nineties began finding these adults now

1581
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:06,760
who were separated at birth, to study them nature and nurture.

1582
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,680
You know, if you're identical but you grew up in

1583
01:43:09,720 --> 01:43:12,359
a different environment, how much do you have in common

1584
01:43:12,359 --> 01:43:15,319
with your identical twin who has the same genome as you.

1585
01:43:16,239 --> 01:43:19,039
And one of the things that struck me was that

1586
01:43:19,239 --> 01:43:22,680
identical twins who are reared separately both tend to have

1587
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:27,079
the same level of religiosity, not religion. They could be

1588
01:43:27,159 --> 01:43:29,920
raised in different communities would be completely different religions, but

1589
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:36,840
how involved in their religion they are, how important religion

1590
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:38,960
is to them, and how much time they spend with

1591
01:43:39,039 --> 01:43:42,159
religion seemed to be very similar. And it seemed to

1592
01:43:42,159 --> 01:43:48,479
have a genetic component. And you know, I continued to

1593
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:52,479
study psychology. I'm now a retired school psychologist and I

1594
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:55,000
taught at a community college for a while, so I

1595
01:43:55,039 --> 01:43:58,039
was always kind of you. I've never been a researcher,

1596
01:43:58,079 --> 01:44:03,119
but I've always been keeping up with the literature and

1597
01:44:03,159 --> 01:44:10,199
the findings, and there's a component or a one type

1598
01:44:10,239 --> 01:44:16,039
of obsessive compulsive behavior. Now, compulsive means you do something

1599
01:44:16,079 --> 01:44:18,359
like wash your hands over and over again, and obsessive

1600
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:21,640
means you think about something a lot. And there's a

1601
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:27,359
obsessive behavior called scrupulosity where a person worries about what

1602
01:44:27,399 --> 01:44:31,199
they're thinking all the time. And religion and quite often

1603
01:44:31,239 --> 01:44:33,399
has a religious bent. It's like, oh, I had a

1604
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:35,720
bad thought, I need to pray, I need to talk

1605
01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:38,000
to God, or I need to you know. And for

1606
01:44:38,439 --> 01:44:40,199
if it's a compulsion that they may need to get

1607
01:44:40,239 --> 01:44:41,760
on their knees they need to pray, or they need

1608
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:43,800
to do a ritual, or they need to sprinkle themselves

1609
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:48,079
with water. And I mean a lot of times this

1610
01:44:48,239 --> 01:44:53,239
is not a it doesn't reach the level of mental

1611
01:44:53,239 --> 01:44:56,399
health disorder. I know myself. I tend to knock on

1612
01:44:56,439 --> 01:44:59,760
wood when I say something like, oh, I've been pretty healthy,

1613
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:02,800
like and you seem to be financially secure. Would make

1614
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:06,920
sure that stays. And so I mean a little bit

1615
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:10,600
of it's not a mental health problem, but there does

1616
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:12,880
seem to be a genetic component to it, and that

1617
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:18,640
obsessive compulsive tendency does play into religion quite a bit,

1618
01:45:18,680 --> 01:45:23,600
and there is a genetic component to it. So I'm

1619
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:28,880
wondering if, if, and does religion maybe become the mental

1620
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:33,600
illness or does mental illness grab onto religion to kind

1621
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:37,560
of justify the symptoms. It's very hard to sort out.

1622
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:41,760
Speaker 2: Well, psychology is not my sandbox. I do know there

1623
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:45,039
is a lot of research out there. A great example

1624
01:45:45,079 --> 01:45:52,000
are people who lean toward like high control conservatism. You

1625
01:45:52,079 --> 01:45:56,159
find personality types, people who are let's call it genetically

1626
01:45:56,399 --> 01:46:00,279
wired to have certain tendencies, tend to grab a hate

1627
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:04,439
in certain ways. So we find that people on the

1628
01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:09,600
far right, they tend to travel less. They are more

1629
01:46:10,319 --> 01:46:15,760
locked into routine and find security. They resist new experiences

1630
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:22,079
and risk. They are more germ averse. They're more afraid of,

1631
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,439
you know, whatever might be coming over the horizon. Now,

1632
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:30,039
obviously it's extremely complicated, but it helps to explain that

1633
01:46:30,159 --> 01:46:34,640
there is a nature nurture combination that might help us

1634
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,479
to explain why some people live their lives in such

1635
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:41,079
limited ways. While other people who are more open to

1636
01:46:41,159 --> 01:46:45,520
experience in the human spectrum and you know, who aren't

1637
01:46:45,600 --> 01:46:48,479
terrified of what's under every rock and all those things,

1638
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:51,920
they end up with different value systems, and they see

1639
01:46:52,079 --> 01:46:54,239
the world and live in the world in very different ways.

1640
01:46:54,279 --> 01:46:57,119
And I think religion may may be part of that.

1641
01:46:57,199 --> 01:47:00,760
I don't think religion or religious people are mentally ill.

1642
01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:05,680
I think there may be reasons across the gamut that

1643
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:10,640
people become religious childhood and doctrination. Maybe they're caught at

1644
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:15,319
a vulnerable time. Maybe they have not been properly taught

1645
01:47:15,359 --> 01:47:17,840
how to think, but have been told what to think. Well,

1646
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:22,720
that's not a mental illness. That is simply ignorance and

1647
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:25,439
the lack of training of the mind to think. You know,

1648
01:47:25,479 --> 01:47:30,840
when I think mental illness, I see memes about this,

1649
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:32,840
and I know this is not where you're going sharing.

1650
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:36,119
But you know, all the mentally ill people are at

1651
01:47:36,199 --> 01:47:39,560
church is something that the atheist meme verse likes to

1652
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:42,880
jump onto. And I just hate it because I wasn't

1653
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:46,720
mentally ill when I was a thirty year Christian. I

1654
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:49,680
was a victim of bad ideas and I was ignorant,

1655
01:47:50,079 --> 01:47:53,000
and that ignorance was fixed. My IQ didn't change, my

1656
01:47:53,079 --> 01:47:56,560
mental capacities didn't change. My information and what I was

1657
01:47:56,600 --> 01:47:59,640
doing with it changed. My attitudes changed. But it's an

1658
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:02,159
interesting thing to talk about. Maybe what are our genetic

1659
01:48:02,199 --> 01:48:05,239
predispositions to how we live in the world, and where

1660
01:48:05,239 --> 01:48:07,960
does that send us? Where do we feel most comfortable.

1661
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:10,199
I think that's an interesting conversation. Sharon.

1662
01:48:12,159 --> 01:48:14,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I you know, I didn't need to imply

1663
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:17,279
that that religion was a mental illness. I'm a thing

1664
01:48:17,319 --> 01:48:22,319
that some people who are mentally ill, you know, schizophrenics

1665
01:48:22,399 --> 01:48:24,720
quite often have religious hallucinations.

1666
01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 2: Yea.

1667
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:30,520
Speaker 3: And people with with with extreme obsessive compulsive disorder have

1668
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:36,560
a religious pick or quirk that that that they practice

1669
01:48:37,199 --> 01:48:40,920
as part of their their mental health problem. And and

1670
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:43,079
and I can see just as much that sometimes a

1671
01:48:43,159 --> 01:48:48,399
religious practice can can be a stabilizing and a healthy influence,

1672
01:48:48,439 --> 01:48:53,520
you know, like alcoholics anonymous has has religious overtones and

1673
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:57,359
it does help people deal with with addictive behavior. So

1674
01:48:57,720 --> 01:49:02,119
you know, it's like it is a very complicated issue.

1675
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:05,000
But I think and that right wing left wing thing

1676
01:49:05,079 --> 01:49:07,279
too is I think the people that are drawn to

1677
01:49:08,199 --> 01:49:11,680
religiosity and the people are maybe drawn to right wing

1678
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:20,800
authoritarian political beliefs are There's something called locus of control.

1679
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:23,479
It's like, do you feel in control of your life?

1680
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:25,600
Do you feel like you can make your own choices?

1681
01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:28,439
You can influence your own future. Do you feel confident

1682
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:30,800
that if you have a problem you can solve it,

1683
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:34,800
Then you have an internal locus of control. You know what,

1684
01:49:35,119 --> 01:49:37,520
I'm not doing well in school, I just need to

1685
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:39,920
study harder and my grades will go up. Or I'm

1686
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:42,479
not doing well in school because I'm just not cut

1687
01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:45,680
out for academics. It would be an external locus of control.

1688
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:50,279
And so the internal locus of control. People are much

1689
01:49:50,319 --> 01:49:53,359
more likely, I think, to be comfortable with agnosticism and

1690
01:49:53,399 --> 01:49:59,880
atheism and left wing ideology, where the external locus of

1691
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:02,399
control is. Oh my goodness, I can't control anything. I'm

1692
01:50:02,399 --> 01:50:05,079
stuck in this situation. I'm born into this world. I

1693
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:08,960
don't even want to know what my IQ is because

1694
01:50:09,840 --> 01:50:12,920
you know, and but if somebody will tell me what

1695
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:14,479
to do and what to think and how to do

1696
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:19,079
it and what to think it, I feel comfort. Yeah,

1697
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:22,560
they don't have they don't have the confidence of the

1698
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:24,840
internal locus of control. It's like, whatever it is, I

1699
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:26,920
can handle it. It's like, whatever it is, I better

1700
01:50:26,960 --> 01:50:29,760
put it in God's hand, or I better you know,

1701
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:32,439
we better have a strong government that's going to get

1702
01:50:32,520 --> 01:50:35,079
rid of all the bad people, so I don't have

1703
01:50:35,159 --> 01:50:35,920
to deal with them.

1704
01:50:36,279 --> 01:50:41,800
Speaker 2: Oh, these are such complicated conversations, most of them beyond

1705
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:47,279
my purview. I mean, I'm you're the psychologist, but I

1706
01:50:47,279 --> 01:50:49,760
I go ahead, go ahead, Sharon.

1707
01:50:50,079 --> 01:50:52,239
Speaker 3: Well, Seth, I've been listening to you a long time.

1708
01:50:52,239 --> 01:50:53,760
You're no lightweight. I read your book.

1709
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:56,720
Speaker 2: Oh shit, you know I would never take an IQ test.

1710
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:59,279
I have this. I suspect I have the IQ of

1711
01:50:59,319 --> 01:51:03,159
a block of geez. I just want that on the record.

1712
01:51:03,359 --> 01:51:05,399
I'm just one guy doing his best here.

1713
01:51:05,520 --> 01:51:09,720
Speaker 3: So Seth, Seth, I have given thousands of IQ tests,

1714
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:12,239
and I have a sense of when I meet somebody

1715
01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:15,199
where they are in the spectrum. And you would definitely

1716
01:51:15,279 --> 01:51:19,840
have be in the in the upper quadrant, perhaps the

1717
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:25,079
upper decile of people who are with with IQ's.

1718
01:51:25,279 --> 01:51:27,640
Speaker 2: You are. You are so very You're.

1719
01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:32,239
Speaker 3: Very You're very articulate, and you're very thoughtful, and you

1720
01:51:32,239 --> 01:51:34,439
you and you think on your feet well enough to

1721
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:39,960
have these kinds of conversations and and do the kind

1722
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:45,239
of balance between you know, not be you know, maintaining

1723
01:51:45,640 --> 01:51:48,800
civility and all that. That's this. This requires a certain

1724
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:53,279
skill set that does not correlate with low intelligence.

1725
01:51:53,319 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 2: Okay, Sharon, You're not just a school psychologist. You you

1726
01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:00,119
were a school cheerleader. I think you're amazing. I'm I'm

1727
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:01,520
going to take you with me on the road. You

1728
01:52:01,560 --> 01:52:03,560
can build me up before I take the stage. You

1729
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:06,079
get me in the zone. I mean, you're just a gift.

1730
01:52:06,279 --> 01:52:06,479
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1731
01:52:06,479 --> 01:52:10,119
Speaker 3: Well, I'll see you in Cincinnati. I'm planning on this.

1732
01:52:10,560 --> 01:52:13,960
Speaker 2: That's a date. And that's a date, Sharon, you are

1733
01:52:14,039 --> 01:52:14,600
most kind.

1734
01:52:14,640 --> 01:52:15,039
Speaker 10: I want to.

1735
01:52:15,079 --> 01:52:18,159
Speaker 3: Chat before I will. I will, I will come up

1736
01:52:18,199 --> 01:52:21,079
and chat with you and tell you how smart you are,

1737
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:23,199
how beloved you are.

1738
01:52:24,199 --> 01:52:26,159
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, oh well that's a date.

1739
01:52:26,279 --> 01:52:29,520
Speaker 3: And I look, if you if you weren't if you

1740
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:31,199
weren't good at what you were doing, you wouldn't be

1741
01:52:31,239 --> 01:52:33,760
successful at it. And you wouldn't be good at it

1742
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:35,039
if you weren't intelligence.

1743
01:52:35,119 --> 01:52:38,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you evidence. All right, well, thank you again.

1744
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:40,640
You've given us a lot to think and talk about,

1745
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:42,720
which is what I want this show to always be.

1746
01:52:43,159 --> 01:52:45,520
And so thank you for the call. And I look

1747
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:49,680
forward to meeting you in person. Okay, all right, all right,

1748
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:56,159
take care bye. You know I don't get cocky, right,

1749
01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:58,560
I've been in the I've been in the room with

1750
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:04,279
Ac Grayling, and I think I'm an idiot. You know.

1751
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:10,359
There was a cardiac surgeon who and an activist at

1752
01:53:10,399 --> 01:53:13,560
weekend Reason in Calgary, and when I listened to him

1753
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:20,560
speak just extemporaneously, I thought, I'm an idiot. It's all relative.

1754
01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:24,319
Of course, I have met people in my life that

1755
01:53:24,399 --> 01:53:28,039
do that. I don't know how else to say this.

1756
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:31,039
I don't know why I'm going to tell you this.

1757
01:53:32,079 --> 01:53:36,119
Now I do know why, because it's funny. But there

1758
01:53:36,159 --> 01:53:39,800
are So there's a comedian, his name is Ron White,

1759
01:53:40,640 --> 01:53:42,319
and he has this I think it's the name of

1760
01:53:42,359 --> 01:53:44,399
an album. I don't follow his work, but I just

1761
01:53:44,479 --> 01:53:46,960
happened to see a clip and it's called you Can't

1762
01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:51,239
Fix Stupid. So the thinking is ignorance can be fixed.

1763
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:54,319
I think in the Unholy Trinity promo. And by the way,

1764
01:53:54,319 --> 01:53:57,319
the Unholy Trinity are in raw and Matt dill Hunty

1765
01:53:57,319 --> 01:53:59,560
and I were going to Fort Worth August twenty ninth.

1766
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:04,399
But in Matt clip, he's like, I understand ignorance, which

1767
01:54:04,399 --> 01:54:08,039
can be fixed through education. I hate wilful ignorance, which

1768
01:54:08,079 --> 01:54:11,840
I think is just stupidity. And Natalie and I were

1769
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:14,800
talking about how we in this culture have gotten wherever

1770
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:18,199
we are, and I think first of all, we are

1771
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:23,640
encouraged to live our lives in a culture of distraction.

1772
01:54:24,399 --> 01:54:26,680
They don't want us to know who our Supreme Court

1773
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:30,239
justices are, where they came from, what their background and

1774
01:54:30,319 --> 01:54:34,119
values are, who funded them. They don't want us to

1775
01:54:34,159 --> 01:54:36,319
know who the Speaker of the House is. They don't

1776
01:54:36,399 --> 01:54:40,119
want us to know Donald Trump's long history. They don't

1777
01:54:40,159 --> 01:54:43,039
want us to know the details of how things work

1778
01:54:43,199 --> 01:54:47,079
in the machine in which we happen to live or exist.

1779
01:54:47,479 --> 01:54:52,199
They want us watching The Bachelor. They want us glued

1780
01:54:52,239 --> 01:54:58,119
to some other distraction. They want us over here freaking

1781
01:54:58,119 --> 01:55:02,199
out about all this other stuff, or just checked out.

1782
01:55:02,920 --> 01:55:05,279
It's too noisy in this world. I give up. They're

1783
01:55:05,319 --> 01:55:08,039
all corrupt, it's all bad. I'm not even going to participate.

1784
01:55:08,119 --> 01:55:10,039
I'm going to take my ball and go home. They

1785
01:55:10,079 --> 01:55:12,279
want us that way. Was a George Carlin who said,

1786
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:14,960
we don't have leaders in this country. We have owners.

1787
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:21,319
And when I do hear an opinion rendered by some

1788
01:55:21,359 --> 01:55:24,800
of the people that I bump into here in Red State, Oklahoma,

1789
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:31,520
I'm terrified of the fact that they do sort of

1790
01:55:32,119 --> 01:55:36,279
pull the lever at the ballot box. They have an opinion,

1791
01:55:36,319 --> 01:55:40,439
but they don't have an informed opinion, and the opinions

1792
01:55:40,439 --> 01:55:47,800
that they express are terrifyingly stupid. I overheard, I'll get

1793
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:49,560
to you, Emily. You've been on hold for an hour.

1794
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:55,479
I'm right there. I'm over I over here somebody in

1795
01:55:55,560 --> 01:55:58,520
this group, and she's like, you know what, you know?

1796
01:55:58,560 --> 01:56:01,279
I didn't vaccinate my kids. I mean I did this.

1797
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:04,239
Homeopathy is what I use for my family because all

1798
01:56:04,359 --> 01:56:09,800
natural and blah Blah'm big farming and I'm just like homeopathy.

1799
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:18,119
How easy is it to debunk the bunk of homeopathy? Homeopathy?

1800
01:56:18,199 --> 01:56:22,279
It's an every size mountain of bullshit. It is so

1801
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:29,520
easily refuted. Homeopathy worshit. And it wouldn't matter what I

1802
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:33,520
said to her about the process and how it's been debunked.

1803
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:36,079
And I could show her the video of skeptic James

1804
01:56:36,119 --> 01:56:39,720
Randy who took a whole bottle of homeopathic medicine and

1805
01:56:40,439 --> 01:56:43,520
ate it on stage and oh deed on homeopathy and

1806
01:56:43,560 --> 01:56:48,319
nothing happened to him. The danger of rejecting science based medicine,

1807
01:56:48,399 --> 01:56:51,199
especially when it comes to children who deserve better. I

1808
01:56:51,199 --> 01:56:53,279
could have gotten into all that asked. She didn't care.

1809
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:56,960
She didn't care. She's right because she's right. Homeopathy works.

1810
01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:59,880
She also believes in astrology, and I shit you not

1811
01:57:00,199 --> 01:57:07,079
that the Earth is flat because the Bible? Is it ignorance? Okay?

1812
01:57:07,279 --> 01:57:11,239
Is it stupid? You damn right, it's stupid. And there

1813
01:57:11,239 --> 01:57:12,880
are some people who would get mad at me for

1814
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:18,520
using that word stupid. The acoustics inside her skull must

1815
01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:28,760
be amazing. Emily, are you still there? After an hour? Emily?

1816
01:57:28,800 --> 01:57:30,920
Hello Earth to Emily. Are you there?

1817
01:57:33,560 --> 01:57:34,119
Speaker 10: Can you hear me?

1818
01:57:34,359 --> 01:57:37,119
Speaker 2: I can? Thanks for your patience. What's going on?

1819
01:57:40,319 --> 01:57:43,239
Speaker 10: Well, first of all, you mentioned George Carlin earlier. I

1820
01:57:43,279 --> 01:57:45,319
just wanted to point out that probably one of my

1821
01:57:45,319 --> 01:57:48,239
favorite clips from him was and he's talking about how

1822
01:57:48,399 --> 01:57:52,760
pro life is really anti woman. But it's really sad

1823
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:56,479
that how after all these years it's still relevant.

1824
01:57:57,319 --> 01:58:02,600
Speaker 2: It is. You know, Carlin had an amazing comic gift,

1825
01:58:03,319 --> 01:58:07,279
but he was a great commenter on our culture. He

1826
01:58:07,479 --> 01:58:10,600
just saw it and when I go back through the

1827
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:15,319
classic clips, I think he got it. And he was.

1828
01:58:15,840 --> 01:58:20,920
He said it's unfixable, and I hate to say I agree.

1829
01:58:21,399 --> 01:58:24,239
I'm not going to give up. But he began to

1830
01:58:24,279 --> 01:58:27,079
focus more on his own inner circle and his interpersonal

1831
01:58:27,119 --> 01:58:30,119
relationships and trying to live a happy life. As best

1832
01:58:30,159 --> 01:58:33,119
he could while commenting on everything else. But he knew

1833
01:58:33,560 --> 01:58:36,920
we're owned the government. Politicians don't give a shit about us.

1834
01:58:36,960 --> 01:58:40,159
The oligarch certainly don't. The world's on fire. Human beings

1835
01:58:40,199 --> 01:58:42,680
have a self destructive tendency in a lot of ways,

1836
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:44,720
at least the power players do. And those are the

1837
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:46,960
people that tend to rise to power. And the rest

1838
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:49,359
of us look around and go, oh, they want us

1839
01:58:49,359 --> 01:58:52,720
to Hey, we'll give him a sixty hour work week.

1840
01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:55,800
We'll give him maybe two weeks off a year to relax,

1841
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:59,399
to go vacation, just enough of an income to survive,

1842
01:59:00,079 --> 01:59:03,199
and they'll think that's an existence, while we go off

1843
01:59:03,239 --> 01:59:06,279
and live the life of Riley and that's just going

1844
01:59:06,279 --> 01:59:10,000
to be normal. And Carlin was a prophet in many

1845
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:12,199
ways too about what we're in today. I'm sorry I

1846
01:59:12,239 --> 01:59:16,239
went off on a tangent emily, what's on your mind today?

1847
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 10: I guess I don't know how to work this very well,

1848
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:22,159
so let me try to. I'm a little awkward. Sorry,

1849
01:59:22,239 --> 01:59:28,920
you're fine. I'm an atheist, but I don't always I'm

1850
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:31,560
very selective on who I come out, you know, as

1851
01:59:31,640 --> 01:59:34,479
atheists too. I have to like trust you, but there's

1852
01:59:34,520 --> 01:59:36,960
been times where I've told somebody I'm an atheist and

1853
01:59:37,039 --> 01:59:41,560
they push backl how how can younot believe in a god?

1854
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:42,079
Speaker 3: Something?

1855
01:59:42,159 --> 01:59:46,079
Speaker 10: Something tornado through a drunkyard builds a plane? And like

1856
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:52,159
I have like a basic understanding of like you know, biology, cosmology,

1857
01:59:52,479 --> 01:59:54,840
that sort of thing. So I guess my question is

1858
01:59:55,560 --> 02:00:00,000
how do I defend my I guess lack of beliefs

1859
02:00:00,119 --> 02:00:03,680
out like relying on like a appeal to authority for

1860
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:06,000
a policy. You get what I'm saying.

1861
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:09,880
Speaker 2: Well, the conversation about evolution and the conversation about a

1862
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:13,920
belief in God are actually ab conversations. They're both very different.

1863
02:00:14,199 --> 02:00:15,600
A lot of God.

1864
02:00:15,439 --> 02:00:18,079
Speaker 10: Believers, yeah, but they're the ones that usually bring up,

1865
02:00:18,119 --> 02:00:21,199
you know, how can you believe? You know, how can

1866
02:00:21,239 --> 02:00:22,840
you not believe in a god? What do you think

1867
02:00:23,439 --> 02:00:26,319
we came from apes? Or that sort of thing? Yeah,

1868
02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:29,119
I understand it myself. It's just I'm not very good

1869
02:00:29,159 --> 02:00:31,680
at articulating. I guess, well, it's good.

1870
02:00:32,039 --> 02:00:34,279
Speaker 2: It's good to know that about yourself. First of all,

1871
02:00:34,279 --> 02:00:35,680
for those who are listening, and they want me to

1872
02:00:35,720 --> 02:00:39,199
address the seven forty seven in a junkyard argument that

1873
02:00:39,239 --> 02:00:42,159
apologists like to use. You know, How in the world

1874
02:00:42,239 --> 02:00:45,880
did all these things accidentally spin into existence one of

1875
02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:49,319
these amazing complex machines with purpose, And they've totally misunderstood

1876
02:00:49,359 --> 02:00:52,800
and misrepresented what evolution is. Evolution does not operate with

1877
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:57,159
an end zone in mind, right, so the premise of

1878
02:00:57,199 --> 02:01:00,479
the argument itself. But you already know that, Emily. I

1879
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:03,079
think if you have a hard time drawing the water

1880
02:01:03,159 --> 02:01:06,520
from the well, if you don't feel confident enough to

1881
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:10,680
engage verbally, these may not be exchanges you want to

1882
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:14,439
subject yourself to. You don't owe them, right, No, And

1883
02:01:15,479 --> 02:01:18,600
a conversation or explanation unless you simply just want to

1884
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:21,399
when you're trying to sharpen those tools. Is that it?

1885
02:01:23,359 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1886
02:01:24,039 --> 02:01:26,600
Speaker 10: I just kind of want people to understand where I'm

1887
02:01:26,600 --> 02:01:30,439
coming from, sure, and I you know, and I don't

1888
02:01:30,560 --> 02:01:35,039
want people like misconstruing what my beliefs are, like the

1889
02:01:35,159 --> 02:01:37,319
beliefs mean, does that make sense?

1890
02:01:37,520 --> 02:01:41,840
Speaker 2: I think from where you're at, let's distill it down.

1891
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:45,800
These conversations tend to spin out of control, right, So

1892
02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:48,560
here's what happens. I sit in the living room and

1893
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:50,640
somebody's like, well, how can you not believe in a god?

1894
02:01:51,199 --> 02:01:54,319
And I'm like, well, I just don't. I've read the Bible,

1895
02:01:54,359 --> 02:01:57,000
I've read the Kouran. Here's what I see and don't

1896
02:01:57,000 --> 02:02:00,439
see in nature, and I don't need it. And then

1897
02:02:00,479 --> 02:02:03,279
they jump into the seven forty seven in a junkyard,

1898
02:02:03,399 --> 02:02:05,399
or the evolution of the eye, or where do your

1899
02:02:05,399 --> 02:02:07,960
morals come from? And then I'm running around trying to

1900
02:02:08,039 --> 02:02:11,000
chase down all those things, and then that brings up

1901
02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:13,560
three or four other topics, and voices start to raise,

1902
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:16,359
and everybody starts to straighten up and stiffen up and

1903
02:02:16,399 --> 02:02:20,079
sit forward, and it becomes chaos. Right, And this is

1904
02:02:20,079 --> 02:02:23,760
a trap. We've all falled fallen fault, We've all done

1905
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:27,840
fold into these traps, Emily, And my encouragement to you

1906
02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:31,319
would be to resist that. I think your best friend

1907
02:02:31,399 --> 02:02:35,079
right now is simplicity. When someone says, how can you

1908
02:02:35,119 --> 02:02:38,199
not believe in God? And this is something you can practice.

1909
02:02:38,319 --> 02:02:40,880
Some people have used little que cards, I kid you not.

1910
02:02:41,239 --> 02:02:43,640
They actually are able to take a point on point

1911
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:45,760
point and make a dozen que cards, and they just

1912
02:02:46,079 --> 02:02:49,600
are able to situationalize what might be said. How would

1913
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:51,520
I approach and how would I not get sucked in?

1914
02:02:52,399 --> 02:02:55,920
And you just are able to say, well, I've looked

1915
02:02:55,920 --> 02:02:59,520
into Christianity, and I've read about this and I don't

1916
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:01,640
see any evidence for God, and in my own life,

1917
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:05,600
I don't need it. I'm certainly curious if evidence for

1918
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:09,680
a God becomes available, I would be interested because I

1919
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:12,680
want to be a creature of truth. But I in

1920
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,880
my own life, I don't believe it. I don't really

1921
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:18,000
buy it, and I don't need it. Thanks for asking

1922
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:22,640
a simple answer that doesn't lead you down a potential

1923
02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:26,800
dozen other paths that might escalate into something that doesn't

1924
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:30,880
become productive. You've made your position. I don't believe it.

1925
02:03:31,199 --> 02:03:33,199
I've looked into it, don't buy it, don't need it.

1926
02:03:33,239 --> 02:03:36,479
Thank you for asking. It's all good that may serve

1927
02:03:36,520 --> 02:03:39,279
you better than trying to answer a lot of these

1928
02:03:39,359 --> 02:03:44,439
sort of minefield questions about evolution and design, etc. Does

1929
02:03:44,439 --> 02:03:45,560
that make any sense.

1930
02:03:47,079 --> 02:03:50,479
Speaker 10: Totally? I know that helps. My background is I was

1931
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:54,439
originally born into a Catholic family, not like an extreme

1932
02:03:54,520 --> 02:03:56,359
Catholic family or anything. We just you know, went to

1933
02:03:56,439 --> 02:03:59,119
church like once a week, and I went to a

1934
02:03:59,159 --> 02:04:02,840
Catholic school for few years. And later on, as a teenager,

1935
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:06,800
I fell into a Baptist church and was with them

1936
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:10,319
for a while, but then as I got older, as

1937
02:04:10,319 --> 02:04:11,960
I got to be an adult, as about the time

1938
02:04:12,279 --> 02:04:17,199
I think you started, and then you know, people like ah,

1939
02:04:17,239 --> 02:04:19,840
and I was falling and fill into that rabbit hole

1940
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:22,720
of atheism, and I'm an atheist.

1941
02:04:23,119 --> 02:04:24,920
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if we're in a rabbit hole.

1942
02:04:25,079 --> 02:04:27,800
I think, you know, mostly we just don't buy it.

1943
02:04:27,840 --> 02:04:30,239
We don't believe in a gun. And you've got some

1944
02:04:30,319 --> 02:04:32,960
equity there. You know. I was raised in the church.

1945
02:04:33,039 --> 02:04:36,640
I speak the language. I understand what's being taught and preached,

1946
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:41,680
and and I get it. And here's how I phrase it, Emily,

1947
02:04:42,319 --> 02:04:44,520
I say, I realize, and I use the word I,

1948
02:04:45,039 --> 02:04:48,039
not you, are they or it or you know. I

1949
02:04:48,079 --> 02:04:50,439
looked at I use the word I, and I say,

1950
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:53,079
I realized that in my own life I'd been raised

1951
02:04:53,199 --> 02:04:56,279
as it to be true, but I had never done

1952
02:04:56,359 --> 02:04:59,520
my own thinking on it. So I came to a

1953
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:02,439
point when and I did my own thinking, and I

1954
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:07,199
began to read and research and reabsorb and reanalyze, and

1955
02:05:07,439 --> 02:05:10,359
I came to a point where I did not believe it.

1956
02:05:11,119 --> 02:05:13,560
And I don't need it in my own life. I

1957
02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:16,760
love my life. I'm doing great. And you know, I

1958
02:05:16,800 --> 02:05:19,399
hope that that clears it up right. It keeps them

1959
02:05:19,439 --> 02:05:24,439
from being usually on the defensive. It's simple, and you

1960
02:05:24,479 --> 02:05:27,439
don't get sucked in. And they will try to suck

1961
02:05:27,479 --> 02:05:30,720
you in, all right, They're going to throw the kitchen

1962
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:34,600
sink at you. You can have those conversations about the details,

1963
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:37,520
but certainly not at the beginning. And I think you

1964
02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:41,840
have to parse them out and be aware this conversations

1965
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:45,880
about you. You don't owe them a defense. You're simply saying, hey,

1966
02:05:46,119 --> 02:05:47,680
you want to know where I'm at here It is

1967
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:49,920
in a nutshell. Thank you for asking. My life is

1968
02:05:49,960 --> 02:05:52,880
good and appreciate you very much. I think that's going

1969
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:54,279
to serve you down the way.

1970
02:05:54,279 --> 02:05:58,880
Speaker 5: Okay, Emily, Yeah that makes sense.

1971
02:05:59,319 --> 02:06:00,000
Speaker 10: Thank you so much.

1972
02:06:00,119 --> 02:06:04,039
Speaker 2: Thanks for calling. Good luck out there. I see you

1973
02:06:04,319 --> 02:06:09,039
all right, I've gotten sucked in. Family members are like, well,

1974
02:06:09,079 --> 02:06:10,600
what about this and what about that? And I'm like,

1975
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:12,239
oh yeah, what about this and what about that? And

1976
02:06:12,239 --> 02:06:13,640
then they say oh yeah, and then I get into

1977
02:06:13,680 --> 02:06:15,479
the Old Testament of the New Testament and gun and

1978
02:06:15,600 --> 02:06:18,720
Jesus fulfilled the law. What about what about baby's dying

1979
02:06:18,720 --> 02:06:20,279
of cancer and natural disasters?

1980
02:06:20,279 --> 02:06:20,319
Speaker 5: No?

1981
02:06:20,439 --> 02:06:22,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about this? And man sin and followed man

1982
02:06:22,439 --> 02:06:25,760
and nan genesis, and before you know it, we are

1983
02:06:26,119 --> 02:06:29,880
well off into the weeds. Everybody's pissed, everybody's shouting, doubling down,

1984
02:06:30,039 --> 02:06:32,720
somebody hangs up. I've hung up on people. And you

1985
02:06:32,720 --> 02:06:35,880
don't even get the satisfaction that you got back in

1986
02:06:35,920 --> 02:06:40,399
the eighties when you had an actual phone plugged into

1987
02:06:40,439 --> 02:06:44,600
the wall with a handset. Bam. Oh yeah, well that's

1988
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:47,800
all I have to say to you about that. Bam.

1989
02:06:48,159 --> 02:06:51,039
You don't even get the satisfaction of a good, solid

1990
02:06:51,039 --> 02:06:55,279
hang up. Instead, you reach for the button to go bip.

1991
02:06:55,640 --> 02:07:00,279
That is not satisfying. It's not satisfying the need to

1992
02:07:00,319 --> 02:07:03,199
bring back the handset just for the conversations where you

1993
02:07:03,279 --> 02:07:08,279
want to go Bye, Bram. I've done it, and I've

1994
02:07:08,279 --> 02:07:12,199
had to train myself. Parse it out, keep it simple.

1995
02:07:12,600 --> 02:07:16,880
Make sure you don't get sucked in, because those say

1996
02:07:17,079 --> 02:07:18,760
tell me a time, and somebody has gotten into a

1997
02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:21,680
shouting match like that, and all of a sudden, one

1998
02:07:21,720 --> 02:07:23,359
party looked at the other and said, you know what,

1999
02:07:24,319 --> 02:07:26,920
You're absolutely right. I've totally changed my mind on this

2000
02:07:27,039 --> 02:07:32,640
important issue. Thank you for being so reasonable. Never never, never, never, never,

2001
02:07:32,880 --> 02:07:36,680
never shouting matches like that. It may be about your

2002
02:07:37,079 --> 02:07:40,720
protesting you feel belittle, that's a different thing. But even then,

2003
02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:47,720
know when to give up and leave simple, parse it out.

2004
02:07:48,319 --> 02:07:54,199
Conversations take a while. What would my psychiatrist friend Sharon

2005
02:07:54,319 --> 02:07:55,920
say about that response?

2006
02:07:56,199 --> 02:07:57,079
Speaker 6: I do not know.

2007
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:02,039
Speaker 2: One final break and our final segment to the show

2008
02:08:02,199 --> 02:08:12,199
is just a moment away. Hang on. So appreciated that

2009
02:08:12,279 --> 02:08:16,000
you are joining me for this long form broadcast loaded

2010
02:08:16,119 --> 02:08:19,960
with humanism and heathen re As we go back to

2011
02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:24,479
the phones, I've got a web call. I don't know

2012
02:08:24,520 --> 02:08:28,439
how to pronounce your first name. Please help me out here, Hi,

2013
02:08:28,840 --> 02:08:32,199
My howel my Howell. Thank you very much for calling.

2014
02:08:32,239 --> 02:08:32,880
What's going on?

2015
02:08:34,399 --> 02:08:41,319
Speaker 9: Hi? I called in to say that to you Americanian people,

2016
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:49,920
USA people, that your president has said these things about

2017
02:08:49,960 --> 02:08:52,680
how everyone's used to laugh at the country. You're not

2018
02:08:52,800 --> 02:09:00,239
laughing now and the Bible will make it all right,

2019
02:09:00,359 --> 02:09:05,039
and everything out here in what I think it was

2020
02:09:05,479 --> 02:09:10,560
the real world, it's just laughable. It's just it's just ridiculous.

2021
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:17,840
It's just it's it's it's just it's insane. Like, for instance,

2022
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:23,600
your country says to us, not you personally, but your

2023
02:09:23,600 --> 02:09:27,000
country says to it us. Put the way we're back

2024
02:09:27,039 --> 02:09:33,000
in the schools prayer back in the schools. Oh yeah, yeah.

2025
02:09:33,039 --> 02:09:36,560
Well when I went to school, we had prayer every day.

2026
02:09:36,640 --> 02:09:41,640
We had him singing every day, and we had some

2027
02:09:42,279 --> 02:09:45,199
bloke stand up and talk to us about the book.

2028
02:09:45,359 --> 02:09:47,199
You know the book you know, you know what I mean,

2029
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:52,159
And well I came, I was letting me before I went,

2030
02:09:52,199 --> 02:09:54,960
oh no, this is not happening, man, No, no way.

2031
02:09:55,359 --> 02:09:58,720
And that put that behind me, but still had it

2032
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:04,039
going through my last job. I was working at preschool

2033
02:10:04,119 --> 02:10:06,840
with children are two and a half to four years old,

2034
02:10:07,119 --> 02:10:10,720
and because of the Education Act nineteen forty four, we

2035
02:10:10,800 --> 02:10:15,039
had daily prayer twice a day and we only left

2036
02:10:15,079 --> 02:10:17,359
from nine till twelve in the morning, nine in the

2037
02:10:17,399 --> 02:10:20,239
morning for twelve midday, and we had two sets of prayer,

2038
02:10:20,359 --> 02:10:24,800
one past ten before we had our toast. We had

2039
02:10:24,880 --> 02:10:27,680
a little prayer saying thank you for the toast, oh,

2040
02:10:27,720 --> 02:10:30,560
thank you for the food, and a nonsense and then

2041
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:35,159
another one that fighters joined just before the children left,

2042
02:10:35,359 --> 02:10:39,760
where we say oh, thank you, thank you nonsense And

2043
02:10:40,600 --> 02:10:43,760
it was this is four year old who did not

2044
02:10:44,159 --> 02:10:46,560
understand what was going on, and they were made to

2045
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:49,680
say this. And my boss turned around to me and

2046
02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:51,760
said to me, Oh, you've got to make them do this.

2047
02:10:52,920 --> 02:10:56,520
I don't know. And children were sat around the table.

2048
02:10:56,680 --> 02:11:01,319
Six children and me sat around the table, and three

2049
02:11:01,359 --> 02:11:03,159
year old just say to me, you've got to put

2050
02:11:03,199 --> 02:11:05,560
your ants together like this. You know what I mean,

2051
02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:08,239
put your hands together like this. I said, no, you

2052
02:11:08,279 --> 02:11:11,479
don't have to. We don't have to. All we need

2053
02:11:11,520 --> 02:11:13,800
to do is be quiet, to let other people get

2054
02:11:13,840 --> 02:11:16,359
home with doing that thing and don't disturb.

2055
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:18,800
Speaker 5: So I was looking after a.

2056
02:11:20,720 --> 02:11:23,920
Speaker 9: Child with I was I was personally want the one

2057
02:11:24,199 --> 02:11:28,960
with a child. We're learning difficulty issues, say uh pre

2058
02:11:29,119 --> 02:11:37,439
lingual didn't speak not here, not with the rest of us,

2059
02:11:37,479 --> 02:11:42,920
not quite on the ball. Yeah, lovely person, lovely lovely

2060
02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:46,640
just didn't understand, didn't get on. And the boss is

2061
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:50,800
going put her hands together. She kind of joined in,

2062
02:11:51,039 --> 02:11:56,600
and I know this doesn't happen a restrictor from being

2063
02:11:56,680 --> 02:12:01,920
distruct anyway. That's the education out nineteen forty four in

2064
02:12:02,000 --> 02:12:08,560
the United Kingdom, Great Britain where I live, which daily prayer. Oh,

2065
02:12:08,840 --> 02:12:11,279
it is ridiculous. And you want to introduce you in

2066
02:12:11,319 --> 02:12:15,359
your country? No, no, I know you the government there

2067
02:12:15,720 --> 02:12:18,680
some people what you're introduced you in the United States

2068
02:12:18,720 --> 02:12:21,600
and go oh, now, go for it, man, because it

2069
02:12:20,560 --> 02:12:25,239
will kick so many people off. And you're just and

2070
02:12:25,319 --> 02:12:27,439
people will go, no, I don't know, this is back

2071
02:12:27,439 --> 02:12:29,279
away from it because it's nonsense.

2072
02:12:30,359 --> 02:12:34,159
Speaker 2: Well, how's that one, if I may? I know Texas

2073
02:12:34,199 --> 02:12:37,159
just voted to mandate the teaching of the Bible in

2074
02:12:37,279 --> 02:12:41,279
public school classrooms. And of course part of me is like, fine,

2075
02:12:41,680 --> 02:12:44,520
let's teach the whole thing. Let's go, come on, let's

2076
02:12:44,520 --> 02:12:47,920
teach it. Let's teach about the kidnapping of the Midianite virgins.

2077
02:12:48,000 --> 02:12:51,840
Let's let's talk about burning Jeptha's daughter on the pire.

2078
02:12:52,199 --> 02:12:56,119
Let's talk about executing disobedient kids. Let's talk about slavery

2079
02:12:56,159 --> 02:12:58,439
and the beating of slaves. Let's tell them the whole thing.

2080
02:12:58,760 --> 02:13:02,000
Let's talk about, you know, the ejaculation upon the ground

2081
02:13:02,119 --> 02:13:04,920
and all those types of the stories. Give me the

2082
02:13:05,000 --> 02:13:08,039
book and give me half an hour and the minds

2083
02:13:08,039 --> 02:13:10,680
of young children, and allow me to teach the good

2084
02:13:10,680 --> 02:13:13,079
word of God quickly. What was your second point?

2085
02:13:14,720 --> 02:13:23,039
Speaker 9: Okay, that was religion, politics, just the same thing. It's honestly,

2086
02:13:23,199 --> 02:13:27,319
we are l we I'm saying we, we Europeans are

2087
02:13:27,600 --> 02:13:34,079
laughing at you. You personally, your country, You've got a clown.

2088
02:13:36,520 --> 02:13:39,119
And worse yet, you've elected.

2089
02:13:38,479 --> 02:13:39,880
Speaker 2: That clown twice.

2090
02:13:41,199 --> 02:13:45,279
Speaker 9: I'm so sad for you. I look at a bit

2091
02:13:45,359 --> 02:13:49,079
of it and go, oh, yes, probably don't this electoral college,

2092
02:13:49,119 --> 02:13:53,239
which was a good idea two hundred years ago when

2093
02:13:53,520 --> 02:13:58,000
you didn't have telegraph and and and you can let

2094
02:13:58,039 --> 02:14:01,760
every count every village, let the city known the city,

2095
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:04,119
let the state known the state, let the country. You know,

2096
02:14:04,439 --> 02:14:07,399
when you don't have that. Yeah, sure, it takes three

2097
02:14:08,439 --> 02:14:14,039
months to get the election sorted, and then the boy,

2098
02:14:14,199 --> 02:14:17,199
it's always a boy, come through in January, after the

2099
02:14:17,279 --> 02:14:21,600
vote in November. But in my country, we have a

2100
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:25,159
vote like it takes all the night to count. Sometimes

2101
02:14:25,159 --> 02:14:29,119
you don't come through to a midday next day by

2102
02:14:29,199 --> 02:14:29,720
tea time.

2103
02:14:32,560 --> 02:14:35,880
Speaker 2: I got it, I got it. The more Trump says

2104
02:14:35,920 --> 02:14:38,279
the world has never taken us more seriously, the more

2105
02:14:38,319 --> 02:14:42,159
the rest of the world is laughing at us, and

2106
02:14:42,279 --> 02:14:45,399
all of you are wondering what the hell happened and

2107
02:14:45,479 --> 02:14:48,319
how could we do it? I think, if I may,

2108
02:14:49,560 --> 02:14:51,520
I would like to say this, and this is part

2109
02:14:51,560 --> 02:14:53,239
of what I've been writing about in the book. That

2110
02:14:53,279 --> 02:14:56,000
may never see the light of day, but what has

2111
02:14:56,039 --> 02:14:58,640
happened is part of more than a fifty year campaign.

2112
02:14:59,239 --> 02:15:02,640
Much of the doings have been behind the scenes, where

2113
02:15:02,720 --> 02:15:07,199
people have been using the Trump presidency to be able

2114
02:15:07,199 --> 02:15:10,359
to secure the halls of power. So while yes, we

2115
02:15:10,439 --> 02:15:13,039
have a nation of tens of millions of idiots and

2116
02:15:13,079 --> 02:15:16,439
bigots who looked at Donald Trump and said yay more,

2117
02:15:17,039 --> 02:15:20,439
we are also looking at people like Peter Teel and

2118
02:15:21,000 --> 02:15:24,000
Russell Voe and Leonard Leo and Barry Side and a

2119
02:15:24,079 --> 02:15:28,880
lot of these massively wealthy organizations that are behind the

2120
02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:32,439
scenes been putting the chess pieces in place for a

2121
02:15:32,479 --> 02:15:36,359
theocratic takeover of the United States, using Donald Trump as

2122
02:15:36,399 --> 02:15:40,039
their way in. It's a massively complicated machine. But we

2123
02:15:40,119 --> 02:15:44,199
deserve mockery, we deserve ridicule, and we deserve grief and

2124
02:15:44,279 --> 02:15:46,640
concern by the rest of the world. Just know that

2125
02:15:46,680 --> 02:15:50,159
there are tens of millions of American citizens who feel

2126
02:15:50,199 --> 02:15:52,560
exactly the same way as you do in the UK.

2127
02:15:52,800 --> 02:16:00,560
Speaker 8: Okay, I've seen the kings that no kings rallies. I

2128
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:06,319
know there are plenty of decent, good, sensible, logical news

2129
02:16:06,359 --> 02:16:13,159
reading of where people are. I just but the face,

2130
02:16:13,520 --> 02:16:16,479
the forward face, the presentation that.

2131
02:16:16,640 --> 02:16:22,439
Speaker 9: The boy using. We all look at the our pleep

2132
02:16:23,199 --> 02:16:29,880
the Orange person. Uh oh no, oh gosh, it's so

2133
02:16:30,039 --> 02:16:33,120
much sympathy for you. I hope you get better soon, are.

2134
02:16:32,959 --> 02:16:37,120
Speaker 2: You very exact? Thanks? Thanks for understanding that we are now.

2135
02:16:37,440 --> 02:16:40,319
We're not all trying to you know, shoot holes in

2136
02:16:40,360 --> 02:16:43,360
the hull of the ship. So it sinks to own

2137
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:46,159
the Libs. Many of us are trying to save what's

2138
02:16:46,239 --> 02:16:49,280
left of our democracy. But I do appreciate your call.

2139
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:51,040
I'm going to move on, my friend. You'd be safe

2140
02:16:51,040 --> 02:16:56,360
over there in the UK. Okay, all right, thank you,

2141
02:16:56,440 --> 02:17:04,399
take care, very zuberant caller from London. That's all I

2142
02:17:04,399 --> 02:17:08,520
got for you today. What we've gone a while, haven't we?

2143
02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:11,440
Well over to two and a half ish hours. And

2144
02:17:12,280 --> 02:17:15,280
thank you for indulging me, you know, telling my personal stories.

2145
02:17:15,319 --> 02:17:17,920
Thank you for some great and compelling and interesting calls.

2146
02:17:17,920 --> 02:17:20,360
A variety of calls today, a lot of stuff to

2147
02:17:20,399 --> 02:17:22,799
talk about. Thanks for being a part of the community.

2148
02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:24,360
I hope I do get a chance to see you

2149
02:17:24,399 --> 02:17:27,079
on the road, whether it's in Cincinnati or in Fort Worth.

2150
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:30,000
I'm going to be in Sarnia, Ontario, going to Huntsville,

2151
02:17:30,040 --> 02:17:34,000
Alabama again. The Thinking Atheist dot com slash events does

2152
02:17:34,040 --> 02:17:37,200
have details on major events not just the stuff I'm

2153
02:17:37,239 --> 02:17:39,440
going to be I'm just stuff that's going on all

2154
02:17:39,479 --> 02:17:42,440
around the country, including Nanocon, freedom from religion, and I

2155
02:17:42,479 --> 02:17:46,559
think there's some other stuff on the way. In the meantime,

2156
02:17:47,440 --> 02:17:50,680
I'm so thankful for your friendship and support, and I'm

2157
02:17:50,719 --> 02:17:55,479
thankful for you just being here, and it means the world,

2158
02:17:55,559 --> 02:17:57,680
and it's been good therapy for me just be able

2159
02:17:57,680 --> 02:17:59,639
to talk about some of this family stuff. I hope

2160
02:17:59,639 --> 02:18:03,639
I burdened you with it, but it's been that's good medicine,

2161
02:18:04,000 --> 02:18:06,719
and so so anyway, it means a lot to me,

2162
02:18:06,760 --> 02:18:08,600
and it means a lot to Natalie to note that

2163
02:18:08,639 --> 02:18:11,079
there's a community that has our back out here as well.

2164
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:13,959
So I'm gonna go and check on my whaling cat.

2165
02:18:15,319 --> 02:18:17,200
I'm gonna check out my wife. I'm gonna go check

2166
02:18:17,239 --> 02:18:19,440
on my my whaling cat, and then I'm gonna light

2167
02:18:19,479 --> 02:18:23,280
my magical candle and see how she does today. And

2168
02:18:23,559 --> 02:18:25,760
I will see you back here on the stream next time.

2169
02:18:25,879 --> 02:18:27,159
You take care.

2170
02:18:27,440 --> 02:18:30,959
Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

2171
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:34,639
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and

2172
02:18:34,639 --> 02:18:38,319
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist

2173
02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:42,040
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events

2174
02:18:42,040 --> 02:18:49,200
and conventions, log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.