1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 7 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,239 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,519 Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,799 --> 00:00:45,719 Speaker 6: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:50,079 Bill Thomas. We're recapping the sentenccene of Brian Coberger for 16 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,679 the murders of Mattie Morgan, Kayleigan Salvez, then A Kernadal. 17 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 4: And Ethan Chapin. Bill, did you have a chance to 18 00:00:58,679 --> 00:00:59,520 watch the. 19 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: I watched clips, but did not watch the entire thing. 20 00:01:04,359 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 3: From what you and other people have told me, though 21 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:08,319 it was a difficult. 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,519 Speaker 6: Watch, it was but it was very worthwhile, and so 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,159 we wanted to take some time today to make sure 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,239 that we were able to share with everybody probably the 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,760 most important part of that sentencing hearing, and that is 26 00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:25,840 the victim's impact statement. Before we get into it, Bill, 27 00:01:25,879 --> 00:01:28,920 did you have anything we wanted to start the top 28 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:29,519 of the pod with. 29 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:34,239 Speaker 3: This reminded me more than a bit of the Golden 30 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,480 State Killer case in that the families were finally given 31 00:01:38,519 --> 00:01:42,799 an opportunity to speak out. Those family members and the 32 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:46,799 survivors had an opportunity, through their victim's impact statements to 33 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:51,519 address the offender, but also the public and one another, 34 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,959 and in a way that I thought was very meaningful. 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,040 I'm so glad that in recent years there's been a 36 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,439 shift towards allowing these victim impacts statement and giving families 37 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:05,920 an opportunity to speak out and convey some of what 38 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:08,960 they've been through. I hope someday we can do this 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,879 in the Colonial Parkway murders as well. 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 6: So this sentencing hearing, obviously just the name itself is 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,919 self explanatory. It is where the judge imposes the sentence 42 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,960 that's been recommended for the defendant. 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 4: And we'll get into that in a couple of minutes. 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 6: But more importantly, as Bill just said, it's the hearing 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,560 where the families and friends of the victims are allowed 46 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,319 to read victims' impact statements. As you alluded to with 47 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:36,919 the Golden State killer case. It is so very important 48 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,400 because it's one of the only times in the criminal 49 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:45,159 justice system where victims, surviving family, surviving friends are allowed 50 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:48,319 to speak and talk about the impact that the crime 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,000 has had on them. As both of us know, the 52 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:56,680 ripples from an act of violence spread long and wide. 53 00:02:57,599 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 4: It's very important, I. 54 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,719 Speaker 6: Think, for people to underst stand the effect that violent 55 00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:06,520 crime has on not just the victims, but everybody around them. 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: One of the things that we wanted to get into 57 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:15,599 up front here is Coburger's decision not to make a 58 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:18,639 statement or to elocute as they say. 59 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,479 Speaker 6: Yeah, I know, that was something that everybody, including us, 60 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,680 was wondering, is it going to happen? 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,319 Speaker 4: Is it not going to happen? 62 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 6: Because we know that everyone is holding their breath and 63 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:34,280 wanting to know why why did he do this? For 64 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:36,800 anybody who did not follow the sending scene hearing or 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,639 has not been aware Coburger chose. 66 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:40,919 Speaker 4: Not to make a statement. 67 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,919 Speaker 6: So if you're waiting the whole entire episode to hear 68 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,400 whether he did or didn't, don't hold your breath. 69 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: He did not make a statement. 70 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 6: We were doing a little bit of research to see 71 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:55,360 whether or not a person has to make an allocution 72 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,400 statement as part of a plea deal, and they don't. 73 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 4: It's not required. 74 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:02,439 Speaker 6: We were all hoping that was going to be part 75 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:04,639 of it, and I've heard a number of people say 76 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,360 they wish that requirement was part of the plea deal, 77 00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:10,560 that if you want to take the death penalty off 78 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,759 the table, you have to allocute. But as Judge Hippler 79 00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:17,519 said in his own closing statement, he said, I cannot 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:23,519 legally compel Brian Coburger to speak, right, And I think 81 00:04:23,519 --> 00:04:27,839 that's important for people to understand. There is no legal 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,759 measure which can force a person to speak about what 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:32,519 they have done. 84 00:04:32,879 --> 00:04:36,439 Speaker 3: Like a lot of things in these cases, including our own, 85 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,120 we're still learning as we go along. When they first 86 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:45,120 announced that Colberger was asking for and then accepted a 87 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,079 plea deal, which meant that he was not going to 88 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,680 be facing the death penalty, I, along with millions of 89 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,439 other people, hoped that he could be compelled to alocute. 90 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,519 We've done our research now and of course we saw 91 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,480 what happened, and in the sentencing hearing the other day, 92 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:07,279 he actually cannot be forced to testify. So even though 93 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,560 I was disappointed because when I heard about the deal, 94 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:13,399 I thought, at least they'll compel him to speak about 95 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,519 why this happened, I've tried to get a little bit 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,199 more comfortable with this, and I've said this on mind 97 00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:23,079 of a murder before. Even if he did alocute, which 98 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:29,199 is strictly voluntary, it doesn't mean that his explanation, if 99 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,519 you want to call it that, for what happened that night, 100 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,279 is going to make any sense or even be close 101 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:41,079 to acceptable for any of us that are not murderers. 102 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:44,920 I was disappointed, although now I'm trying to get to 103 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,040 a better place where a number of key points were made, 104 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:50,480 and I know you want to get into some of 105 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:56,079 the details about how potential allocution by Brian Coberger or 106 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,560 any murderer is not necessarily going to be that satisfying 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,839 and experience, because nothing this fool can say is going 108 00:06:06,879 --> 00:06:10,759 to bring those beautiful young people back. There isn't ever 109 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,920 going to be an adequate explanation for why this happened, 110 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:18,519 and as the judge pointed out, we don't. 111 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,759 Speaker 2: Even know if what he would say would be even 112 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:21,800 close to the truth. 113 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:25,199 Speaker 6: The burning question of why is something we're all going 114 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,959 to want answered. But I think the only person who 115 00:06:28,079 --> 00:06:31,800 really knows the why is Brian Coburger, and there is 116 00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:36,519 absolutely no legal maneuvering that can be made to compel 117 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,439 him to say it. As much as we may want 118 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,160 the why, it is very likely that we are never 119 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:44,639 going to get it. And even if we do get it, 120 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:47,600 let's say he decides to do a Netflix special or 121 00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:50,079 a book or whatever else, and we'll talk again about 122 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,360 this idea of a set of sam laws and profiting 123 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:57,600 from the fruits of their crime. There is no guarantee 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,240 that anything that he says, like you said, Bill, is 125 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,839 going to be true or rational or saying even so, 126 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,240 let's put him out of the way focus instead on 127 00:07:10,079 --> 00:07:13,560 the victim's impact statements, because those were, for me, the 128 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,160 most moving part of the whole entire experience. 129 00:07:16,959 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 130 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 4: What we'll do is. 131 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 6: We'll go ahead and address each of the people who 132 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:26,360 offered an impact statement. I decided to sit down and 133 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,879 live stream this watch the whole entire proceeding. I did 134 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,160 it with a legal pad in front of me, and 135 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:36,720 I just scribbled down as much as I could remember 136 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,519 the most compelling important points from each of the impact statements, 137 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,040 and I want to make sure that I highlight some 138 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,519 of those. For some of these, I'll be direct quoting, others, 139 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,120 I'll basically just be reporting on what was said. Most 140 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,680 of these impact statements are probably online somewhere on YouTube. 141 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,759 I do know that within a couple of hours, Olivia 142 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,800 Gonsalvis's absolutely amazing victim's impact statement was circulating widely on YouTube, 143 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:06,759 as was Dylan Mortenson's. So I have a feeling that 144 00:08:06,839 --> 00:08:09,279 most of this you can find somewhere on YouTube. At 145 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:12,279 this point, if anything that we say is interesting to you, 146 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:13,240 go explore YouTube. 147 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:16,199 Speaker 4: I'm sure it's there somewhere. So the first victim's. 148 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,199 Speaker 6: Impact statement came from surviving roommate Bethany Funk. Bethany had 149 00:08:21,199 --> 00:08:23,839 a friend read her impact statement. We don't know if 150 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:25,920 she was unable to come to court or whether she 151 00:08:25,959 --> 00:08:28,839 felt she was just unable to stand up and give it. 152 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:31,759 I wouldn't want to be in front of Brian Coberger either. 153 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:34,759 She had a friend read her impact statement through the 154 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,000 court and the friend definitely had a hard time with it, 155 00:08:38,279 --> 00:08:42,279 as I think I probably would too. Bethany's statement largely 156 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,399 concerned the trauma and survivor's guilt that she has suffered 157 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,720 in the aftermath of that quadruple homicide of her friends. 158 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:54,080 She spoke about her regret and her guilt for not 159 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,879 calling nine to one one right away, and that is 160 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:02,600 something that she was excoriated for the press online. She 161 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,279 offered an explanation that she honestly didn't even have to offer, 162 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:09,200 I don't think, but she went ahead and gave one 163 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,120 in her statement anyway. She explained that morning she woke 164 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,120 up with a terrible toothache. She called her dad, who 165 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,440 was a dentist, who told her to take some advil 166 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,960 and try to get some sleep. She took the advil, 167 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,200 she went back to sleep, and she wasn't really cognizant 168 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,519 of anything until the paramedics were already on their way 169 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,039 and everything was set in motion. She spoke of the 170 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,919 intense survivor's guilt that she feels at having survived while 171 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,679 four of her friends did not. 172 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,399 Speaker 4: She said, I still think of it every day. 173 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,919 Speaker 6: Why me, Why did I get to live while they 174 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,879 did not. She spoke of the terrible harassment that she 175 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:51,960 suffered on social media, including death threats, harassment by the 176 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,080 media at large who would not leave her alone to grieve, 177 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,240 and who wanted her story. 178 00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: This, I think is one of the abst solute worst 179 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:06,000 things about our social media environment. I don't know why 180 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,000 in the world someone would attack Bethany or any of 181 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,440 the friends for their actions that evening. They did the 182 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:19,080 best they could under incredibly difficult circumstances. Now this thing 183 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,039 about the toothache, that's the first time I've heard about this. 184 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:28,120 It makes perfect sense, and it pains me to hear 185 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:32,519 Bethany and others talk about how they were attacked on 186 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,559 social media and death threats. 187 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: This is insane. People. 188 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,639 Speaker 3: We cannot be attacking the survivors of violent crime as 189 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:46,559 if they've done something wrong. It's one thing to be 190 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,120 angry at Brian Coberger or any other offender, and he's 191 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,240 now played guilty, so there's no question that Brian Coberger 192 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,120 did this one thing to be angry with him. It's 193 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:02,480 another thing to be attacking someone like Bethany Funk, who 194 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,279 is simply a housemate and good friend to these four 195 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,919 young people that were murdered. I'm completely baffled that people 196 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,559 feel that it's okay to theorize about these roomaids and 197 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,320 make all sorts of false accusations and death threats. 198 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 6: This is insane, the idea that you can Monday Morning 199 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,399 quarterback what somebody should have done in the event of 200 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:31,200 being at the scene of a major crime. No one 201 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:34,919 has any idea what they themselves would do in that situation. 202 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,320 Until they are in that situation. You can say, with 203 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:42,480 all the sort of good intentions in your heart, oh, 204 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,159 I would have called nine one one immediately, I would 205 00:11:45,159 --> 00:11:46,639 have done this, I would have done that. 206 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 4: You don't know until you're in that situation. You just don't. 207 00:11:51,639 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 6: And it isn't fair to Monday Morning quarterback on somebody 208 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,240 for what they did in the middle of a grievous emergency. 209 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:03,200 I feel horrible, and that really toxic part of our 210 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,679 social media culture is just something that I would love 211 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,159 to see completely done away with. 212 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,039 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 213 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 6: Bethany spoke about the trauma and fear that she has 214 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,120 lived with every day since the attack and how that 215 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:19,639 has manifested. She talked about requiring double locks on her 216 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,320 doors alarms in every residence that she has. She and 217 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,200 the other surviving room at Dylan Mortenson both said that 218 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,279 they slept in their parents' rooms every night for a 219 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,840 year after the murder because there was this fear that 220 00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:38,720 they would wake up and see someone looming over them. Wow, 221 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:42,559 which I justify. I understand, that's justifiable one hundred percent. 222 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:47,120 She did finish, however, on a very determined note, she said, 223 00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:49,840 I am beyond blessed to be here, and I refuse 224 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,720 to take that for granted. She also said of her friends, 225 00:12:53,759 --> 00:12:56,360 I hope they are remembered for who they are and 226 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,799 not for what happened to them. 227 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,519 Speaker 3: And I have said the exact same thing about the 228 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,519 Colonial Parkway murders victims. We need to focus on these 229 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,159 wonderful people and our own loss as friends and relatives 230 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,240 and the community. It pains me to think of people 231 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:19,120 thinking of the Idaho four victims only for this one 232 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:23,399 horrible evening when four of them lost their lives. We 233 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,320 need to focus on the joy and the love and 234 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,600 the accomplishments and the friendship of these four people. There's 235 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,679 no question there's a dramatic loss here for all of us, 236 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:40,200 especially for the people that were close to them. This 237 00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:43,919 idea that let's remember them for who they are and 238 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,159 not for what happened to them really resonated with me absolutely. 239 00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:52,879 Speaker 6: The second victim's impact statement was from the second surviving 240 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,000 room made in that house, Still and Mortonson. This was 241 00:13:56,039 --> 00:13:59,799 the one that affected me most powerfully on a personal level. 242 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,559 I cried through the entirety of her statement. She was 243 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:08,200 completely unable to stand. Her lawyer asked for a little 244 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,440 leeway from the judge and said she needs to be 245 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:12,519 able to sit down, and the judge was like, yes, 246 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,159 whatever you need, absolutely, And the judge was wonderful through 247 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:20,399 this whole entire process. He spoke to each person who 248 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,120 stood up very graciously and kindly, expressing his thanks to 249 00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:28,039 them for standing up and expressing his condolences as well. 250 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,639 I was very impressed with Judge Hppler, me too. Dylan 251 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,159 gave her statement from one of the lawyer's chairs. She 252 00:14:34,279 --> 00:14:37,879 was visibly shaken up, crying the whole time, almost hyperventilating, 253 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,080 but she steadied herself and she read her statement. And 254 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,879 I got to say, and we saw this with our 255 00:14:44,919 --> 00:14:48,720 friend Kathy Kleiner, who came face to face with Ted Bundy, 256 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:52,120 it must have been a hell of a terrifying experience 257 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,960 to come face to face with Brian Coburger. 258 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,039 Speaker 4: I cannot even imagine what that was like for her. 259 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 6: She she spoke, She said of his actions, he did 260 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,480 not just take their lives. He took away the light 261 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,200 they brought into every room. He took them from me. 262 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:13,200 They were my people and my home. He shattered me 263 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,519 in places I didn't know could break. He stole parts 264 00:15:16,519 --> 00:15:18,279 of me I may never get back. 265 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. 266 00:15:21,039 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 3: One thing that's worth pointing out here, particularly with the 267 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:29,159 youngest of the survivors here. These folks are college students. 268 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,919 They don't have that much life experience. Yet. It's one 269 00:15:34,039 --> 00:15:37,320 thing like with the parents and some of the and 270 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,440 even grandparents and other folks that have lived more of 271 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,200 their lives. 272 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: They've probably suffered other losses. 273 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:49,879 Speaker 3: In their lives and have grieved at different points for 274 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:53,480 any number of reasons. But for these young people, a 275 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:56,600 lot of them, this may be the very first time 276 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,159 they've lost their peers, and then for it to happen 277 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,039 in such a horrific and violent way all they've been through, 278 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:08,639 I have to give them a lot of credit for 279 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:10,480 even being able to do this. 280 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 6: I one hundred percent agreed Dylan spoke about the trauma 281 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,960 and PTSD that she endures in being one of the 282 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,559 two survivors of that massacre. She said, I make escape 283 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,240 plans everywhere I go. She said, I have panic attacks 284 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,759 like a tsunami that hit me out of nowhere, because 285 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:30,399 my nervous system never got the message that it's over. 286 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,759 She said Bethany, she requires alarms and locks and finds 287 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:37,600 it too difficult to sleep in a room alone. But 288 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:40,120 also like Bethany, she ended on a message of hope. 289 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,919 He may have shattered me, but I am still trying 290 00:16:42,919 --> 00:16:45,519 to put myself back together. I am not trying for me. 291 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,159 I am trying for them. Living is how I honor them. 292 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaking today is how I get justice for them. He 293 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,600 will never take my voice from me. Bravo, Dylan. Yeah, 294 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,759 I cried my way through that for a reason. She 295 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:04,680 is so so miraculously strong and confident. She was amazing, 296 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,640 absolutely amazing. The families were up next, and we should 297 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,039 go ahead and acknowledge at the top that one of 298 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,440 the families opted not to speak, and they are well 299 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,559 within their rights not to do that. I was talking 300 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,519 to Cheryl McCollum earlier today, Mac and she said that 301 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,839 in her forty years have been in law enforcement and 302 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,000 watching victims' impact statements. She said, the Chapins deciding we 303 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:34,759 don't need to give him any more time and any 304 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:35,400 more attention. 305 00:17:35,839 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 4: We don't want this anymore. 306 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 6: She said it was the bosses most badass move that 307 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:43,680 she's ever seen, and she said she thinks it's important 308 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,720 that we acknowledge that the Chapins did not have to 309 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:50,119 participate in this if they didn't want to, and it 310 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,440 doesn't say anything about them or their willingness to honor Ethan. 311 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:57,759 It just shows that they don't want the spotlight on 312 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,319 Coburger anymore and don't want to share any more of 313 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:03,759 Ethan with him. And I understand that, and I actually 314 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:04,319 applaud that. 315 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do too. We've talked about this this. 316 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,839 Speaker 3: Whole Your mileage may vary expression that I use, and 317 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,279 maybe I'll come up with a better expression at some point, 318 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,519 but it's something I've learned going through the Colonial Parkway 319 00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:22,960 murders experience. Everyone is going to react to these losses 320 00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:27,319 in their own way, and sometimes it'll even shift over time. 321 00:18:28,079 --> 00:18:32,960 And for the Chapin family, they've actually been incredibly articulate, 322 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:36,319 as have all the families but they have their reasons 323 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,799 why they don't want to spend any more time worrying 324 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,000 about or talking about Brian Coberger, and I totally get it. 325 00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 6: When I was talking to Mac earlier today, she also 326 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,759 said something that I thought was very appropriate for this. 327 00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:56,240 She really liked the fact that during all the victim's 328 00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:59,799 impact statements, you got a wide array of responses from 329 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:03,359 the family members. Those who needed to get mad got mad. 330 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:06,000 Those who needed to cuss him out cussed him out. 331 00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:10,039 Those who needed to forgive him and offer a message 332 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:15,400 of forgiveness, and through a religious lens, they did. She said, 333 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,839 she loved the fact that every person who spoke did 334 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,200 it in their own way in order to gain the 335 00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:23,839 we both know closure isn't the right word here, but 336 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,400 to gain the closure that they needed from this experience. 337 00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 4: They got out of it what they needed to get 338 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:29,640 out of it. 339 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 6: And so I think, Bill, it's very similar to your 340 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,000 knowledge may very approach. I love the fact that Olivia 341 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,240 Gonkalvas got up there and basically said, screw you, you 342 00:19:40,279 --> 00:19:42,440 suck your basic You're terrible, and my sister would have 343 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:45,279 kicked your ass. She needed to say that, and not 344 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,000 everybody needed to do that, so I really liked the 345 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,039 fact that everybody came at it in their own way. 346 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:52,880 The first of the families to have her victims and 347 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,880 peck statements was Matty Morgan's family. First up was her stepfather, 348 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,920 Scott Laramie. He said, there are no words to act 349 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,119 ccurately described the pain of losing Mattie. 350 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 4: The world was a better place with her in it. 351 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 6: He in particular spoke of the pain of his wife 352 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,480 and Mattie's mother, Karen. He said, she sometimes asks, how 353 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:13,279 am I supposed to go on when I've lost my 354 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,200 favorite person in the world, And Bill, I know that 355 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,759 your mom went through a similar experience. 356 00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:22,279 Speaker 3: Losing Kathy, or when I read this, this reminded me 357 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,440 so much of things my mom passed away some years ago, now, 358 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:29,759 what she used to say about my sister Kathy, about 359 00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:33,559 how in one evening she lost her only daughter, her 360 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:35,240 youngest child, and her best friend. 361 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,799 Speaker 6: Mister Laramie spoke about his feelings about the Plea Deal 362 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,880 in response to those media stories about the division within 363 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,640 the families. He stated, we support the Plea Agreement. Society 364 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,400 needs to be protected from this evil, but this evil 365 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,119 does not deserve our time and attention any longer, which 366 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:56,160 I fully agree with. He ended on the powerful statement 367 00:20:56,279 --> 00:20:59,079 we are done being victims. We are taking back our 368 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:05,400 lives and will endure very well. Said Yeah, this theme 369 00:21:05,559 --> 00:21:09,240 of refusing to be victims, of refusing to allow Coburger 370 00:21:09,279 --> 00:21:12,279 to have power over them, that was reflected in the 371 00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:15,759 statements of other family members as well. And I really 372 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,880 think those are very strong messages to send forward to 373 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,559 anybody who's gone through something like this. Okay. Next up 374 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,160 was Karen Laramie, Mattie's mother. She did not read her 375 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,640 statement aloud, she passed it to her attorney, Lander James, 376 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,359 but she did stand at the podium with him with 377 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,759 tissues and watched Tim read. She echoed her husband Scott's 378 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:38,920 love for her daughter, saying Mattie was our hope and 379 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,319 our light. She also stated, with regards to Braying Coburger, 380 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,240 we will not ask for mercy for what he has done, 381 00:21:46,319 --> 00:21:49,200 but we will waste no further words or thoughts on him. 382 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000 So again, this continuing thread of your nothing, We're done 383 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:54,279 with you. 384 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I like this a lot, actually. 385 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:58,519 Speaker 4: Yeah. 386 00:21:58,599 --> 00:22:02,559 Speaker 6: Kim Cheley, Mattie's grandmother, spoke next. She shared her love 387 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:06,759 of her granddaughter, including sharing very personal things, Mattie's nickname 388 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:10,759 for her. She spoke of the day that they have 389 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:14,920 used as a family to honor Mattie May twenty fifth, 390 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,039 Mattie's birthday is Mattie May Day, a day in which 391 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:21,279 her family encourages others to do random acts of kindness 392 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,680 in Mattie's honor, and from the podium, Miss Cheley encouraged 393 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,960 everyone listening to commit a random act of kindness this 394 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,319 week in Mattie's. 395 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,039 Speaker 2: Name with great idea. 396 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,599 Speaker 4: I like that a lot. 397 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 6: The last member of the Mogan family to speak was 398 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,039 Ben Mogan, who is Mattie's biological father. He was very 399 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,240 visibly moved and obviously distressed, but he stood up at 400 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:47,559 the podium because he was determined to honor his daughter. 401 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,279 I think the most gut wrenching thing that he said was, 402 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:54,799 she is the only great thing I ever did, the 403 00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:57,440 only thing I was ever proud of. I thought her 404 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,720 college graduation was going to be the beginning of a 405 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:04,240 law life together, but we never got that. Wow ooh, 406 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,599 sorry I needed a second there. This is it's incredibly 407 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,279 emotional to watch these. It really is like it's a 408 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:12,839 good thing to do, and I'm glad that I did it, 409 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,480 But you can feel the pain coming off of these folks, 410 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,920 and it's so gut wrenching. 411 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very palpable. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 412 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,599 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors, 413 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:34,559 We're back here at Mind over Murder. 414 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 6: The next family to speak was that I realized that 415 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,039 we've been pronouncing the Gonsalvez family a couple of different ways, 416 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:44,799 and that's because I've heard it a couple of different ways. 417 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,440 I've heard Gonkalvez, I've heard Gonsolves. We got dinged the 418 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,599 other day in social media for saying it wrong. We 419 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,000 apologize for that, but legitimately, I've heard. 420 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:54,559 Speaker 4: It both ways. 421 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,839 Speaker 6: So I'm going to go with Gonsalves. And if I 422 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:02,079 mispronounce it again, and I'm sorry, it's just one of 423 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:03,359 those things I'm trying. 424 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 4: We're out here doing our. 425 00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:09,759 Speaker 3: Best, and until I heard family members say it, you 426 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,279 really don't know what the correct pronunciation is. Look, I 427 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,240 for quite a while, I thought Dylan was a man, 428 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,599 because in my experience, the Dylan's I've met over the 429 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,519 years have been men and boys. I didn't realize that 430 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:30,480 Dylan was female until further along in the process, so 431 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,240 apologies for any mispronunciation. So I guess we're going with Gonsalves, 432 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,480 which is a little bit more of an S sound. 433 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:41,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, and if I mispronounced it again, sorry. 434 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,519 Speaker 2: We're doing the best we can here. 435 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: We're doing the best we can. We're all out here 436 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,160 trying to make a living. 437 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 6: The gonsalvast family was next to offer their victim's impact statements, 438 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,880 and I really liked the fact that when Steve Gonsalvez 439 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,319 took the podium, he turned it around ninety degrees directly 440 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:01,680 to face Brian Coburger and speak to him. In fact, 441 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:05,200 all the members of his family spoke directly to Brian Coburger. 442 00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: Very interesting and he's been very outspoken, but he was 443 00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:09,799 here too. 444 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,799 Speaker 6: I really enjoyed listening to him speak because he managed 445 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:19,440 to get across everything that he needed to say without 446 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,720 avert like out of control anger. But you could tell 447 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:25,680 this is a guy who you give him five minutes 448 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,920 with Coburger, there's not going to be a whole lot. Leve. 449 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,119 He started by again turning to speak directly to Coburger 450 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,799 and said, today we are here to prove to the 451 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:36,720 world that you picked the wrong families, the wrong state, 452 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,400 the wrong community. We are united in our disgust of you, 453 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,960 and united in our love for these children. He went 454 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:48,039 on to cut Coburger down to size with his words, 455 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,160 listing everything he did wrong in the commission of the crime, 456 00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:55,839 and then every potential personal failing that he saw. He said, 457 00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:58,400 for example, leaving your DNA at the scene. You were 458 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,480 that careless, that foolish, that's stupid. You have a master's degree, 459 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,400 You're a joke. He assured Coburger that the world is 460 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,720 watching because of these kids, not because of you, and 461 00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:12,440 finished with this statement, From this moment on, we will 462 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,759 forget you. And again, I am sure that those are 463 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:17,880 the things he needed to say to help him sleep 464 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,160 better at night, and I applaud that wholeheartedly. 465 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 466 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: What's interesting, too, is that Steve Consale has been very outspoken. 467 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:30,799 He was expressing his family's disappointment about the plebeal and 468 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,359 the fact that the death penalty had been taken off 469 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,400 the table. Obviously, the Consaldist family supported the idea of 470 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:42,759 implementing the death penalty. Other family members did not see 471 00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:46,160 it that way. And I think everybody's entitled to their 472 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,279 own perspective. 473 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: But I love this. 474 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 3: We are united in our disgust for you and united 475 00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:56,000 in our love for these children. He's I think, demonstrating 476 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,119 that regardless of what someone's viewpoint might be in this 477 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,160 case regarding the death penalty, they were still all united 478 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:06,200 as families. 479 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, and that was echoed later by many other members 480 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,920 of the families as well. 481 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:16,079 Speaker 4: I had said before that Dylan Mortenson was the I want. 482 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 6: To give you a hug hero of the day, but 483 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:21,119 the I want to give you a high five and 484 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,799 take you out for a drink hero of the day 485 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,240 was Olivia A Gonsalveez, who offered a passionate confidence speech 486 00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:33,400 in which she tore Brian Coburger to shreds and I 487 00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:38,160 love it. I highly encourage everybody go watch this woman's 488 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,559 victims impact statement. 489 00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 4: It's amazing, like it's for the. 490 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: Ages, good for her. 491 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 6: I want to teach this in my rhetoric class. Honestly, 492 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,440 I can't even begin to hit all of the good 493 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,079 notes that she hit, but I'll go ahead and give 494 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,960 you some of the highlights. Again, she looked right at 495 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,000 him and said, you are terrified of being ordinary, aren't you. 496 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,279 You're a classic case of insecurity disguised his control. 497 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 4: You're basic. 498 00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 6: The scariest part about you is how painfully average you 499 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:09,279 turned out to be. 500 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:10,839 Speaker 2: Wow. 501 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:14,759 Speaker 6: She stated at the top that she not only considered 502 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,799 Kaylie her sister, but she considered Matty Mogan to be 503 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,599 her sister as well, And so she said, my sisters 504 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,599 were not yours to study, to stock and to take. 505 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,480 She stated, that darkness that you carried, that emptiness, you 506 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:31,640 will sit with that for the rest of your life. 507 00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:32,839 Speaker 4: That is your sentence. 508 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:34,839 Speaker 2: Very powerful stuff. 509 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,559 Speaker 6: Again, good for her, and she ended with a statement 510 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:41,720 that drew a round of applause from everyone in the courtroom. 511 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,279 Here's the statement that will be hardest for you to accept. 512 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,279 If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep like a pedophile, 513 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,920 Kayllie would have kicked your fucking ass. Wow. 514 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 4: Oh, I cheered, I cheered. 515 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 6: I've stood up and stood up from the dining room 516 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,000 table and I cheered, go off, queen. She was amazing 517 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,000 and I loved it. High fives and drinks all around. 518 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:10,599 She was absolutely phenomenal. I highly recommend you watch her speech. 519 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,440 Christy Cansavez, Kayley's mother, spoke next. She was just as 520 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,720 fiery as her daughter. Obviously, it's a family trait. She 521 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,000 denigrated Coburger about his inability to make and keep relationships, 522 00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:26,200 among other things. She said, you couldn't get a job, 523 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,359 You couldn't even get a woman to look in your direction. 524 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:30,759 The men in prison will have their way with you 525 00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:33,759 in more ways than one, and you'll finally get what 526 00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:35,319 you want physical touch. 527 00:29:35,799 --> 00:29:36,119 Speaker 2: Oh my. 528 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:41,519 Speaker 6: And she finished with a message from her youngest daughter, Aubrey, 529 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,880 who simply said, you may have received a's in high school, 530 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,160 in college, you'll be You'll be getting big d's in prison. 531 00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 2: Ouch. 532 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,079 Speaker 3: Wow, I look, I get it, and I've got no 533 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,839 love for Brian Coberger. 534 00:29:57,079 --> 00:29:59,279 Speaker 2: I think the whole family should just say what they 535 00:29:59,319 --> 00:29:59,880 really think. 536 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 4: The Gonsalvist women a Feerce. 537 00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:03,119 Speaker 2: I love that. 538 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,079 Speaker 4: I thought it was fantastic. 539 00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:09,559 Speaker 6: There were some additional statements from other Gansalvest family members 540 00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:11,680 who could not be president the hearing. Those were read 541 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,480 by the family's lawyer, Shin and Gray. The general tenor 542 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:18,920 of the statements was that Brian Koberger would pay for 543 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,720 his crimes in the afterlife. A lot of them basically 544 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:24,640 came around to the idea that he should burn and 545 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:25,680 hell and again. 546 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,119 Speaker 4: If you got to say it say it. 547 00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 6: That's what the victim's impact statements are for, so they 548 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,799 can express to this terrible, awful, less than human person, 549 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:36,839 here's what we think. 550 00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: This is very powerful stuff. 551 00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:42,599 Speaker 3: And the great thing about victims impact statements is that 552 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,240 you can deliver these things directly in the face of 553 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,880 the horrible monster that took your loved ones away, and 554 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,680 it gives you an opportunity to express your rage. 555 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 6: I think it was Olivia who actually told him at 556 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,559 one point, look at me. 557 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw that. 558 00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:08,759 Speaker 4: It was like, you know what good for you? Good 559 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:09,039 for you? 560 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: She told him to sit up straight in his chair 561 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,319 and look at her. It was really powerful. 562 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:15,519 Speaker 4: Yeah. 563 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,799 Speaker 6: I think that for all that it must have been 564 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,480 very difficult to stand up and give those statements, there 565 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:23,960 had to be a certain sense of Catharsis in there too, 566 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:24,920 I would imagine. 567 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: Oh, I would think, so, I've not been through this experience, 568 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,799 but we know people that have, and it seems to 569 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,160 have had great benefit for them. 570 00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:38,519 Speaker 6: I remember watching the Golden State Kill victims impact statements. 571 00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:41,880 I know you did too, and I remember being happy 572 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 that Jane Carson Sandler got the opportunity to look him 573 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,000 in the face and tell him to rot in hell, 574 00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:47,799 you bastard. 575 00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:50,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, good for you, because that has to be that 576 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,519 has to feel good. 577 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 3: A couple of years ago, my partner Pamela and I 578 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:57,319 had an opportunity to go up and spend a few 579 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,279 days with Jane Carson Sandler and husband Roger, who were 580 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:04,359 lovely people, beautiful home up in Maine, and they asked 581 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,319 us to come up and visit with them, and we did. 582 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:10,359 First of all, the two of them are the most amazing, wonderful, 583 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,880 positive people. Even though a couple of years have gone by, 584 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,720 you could really tell that Jane took great pride in 585 00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,279 what she said and how she said it to the 586 00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:24,599 offender in the Golden State killer case. 587 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:28,359 Speaker 2: The victim's impact statements afford. 588 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,039 Speaker 3: People who are survivors an opportunity to really speak their 589 00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:36,559 mind and vent some spleen if they need to. But 590 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,680 I think for most people, they walk away from that 591 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:45,359 experience feeling a lot better about at least being afforded 592 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,359 the opportunity to speak from the heart. 593 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 6: I think that it's also an opportunity to feel as 594 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,079 if you gained some of the power back that you 595 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,119 lose when you become a victim of crime. 596 00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 4: Being victimiz is. 597 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 6: It's a terrible thing because it makes you powerless. You 598 00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:11,400 lose something when you are victimized. The ability to speak 599 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,559 to an offender, to tell him go to Hell or 600 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:17,440 whatever it is that you need to do, it gives 601 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,559 you the opportunity to take some of what you lost back, 602 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:24,440 and I think that we were seeing a lot of 603 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,759 that with these victims impact statements. 604 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,119 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 605 00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:33,559 Speaker 3: Three of the four victims in this case are young women, 606 00:33:33,759 --> 00:33:37,400 and I think it was incredibly important, for example, for 607 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,519 the consultus's sisters, surviving sisters to have the opportunity to 608 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,559 push back and to say something and express themselves in 609 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:49,960 the way that they did. And I think that can 610 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,519 be very powerful because down the road you can take 611 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,640 some small degree of comfort in the fact that you 612 00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:00,880 face down this demon and told him what you thought 613 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,319 of him exactly. 614 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:06,279 Speaker 6: The final family to share their victims impact statements was 615 00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:09,679 the Carnadal family. As we'd said before, the Chapin family 616 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,760 opted not to attend the hearing, so the Cernadal family 617 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:13,280 was the last. 618 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 4: They had six statements. 619 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:18,079 Speaker 6: Some of which we are just going to summarize without excerpting, 620 00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:20,440 because at that point I had about ten pages worth 621 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,000 of notes on my legal pad, and I was reaching 622 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:26,079 a point where I couldn't write everything down. So the 623 00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:28,159 first to speak from the Carnadal family was in his 624 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,519 sister Chasmin, who spoke directly to Brian Koberger when she said, 625 00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:36,840 I hope that one day you will feel the full weight. 626 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 4: Of what you did. 627 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 6: She also said, again speaking directly to him, I came 628 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,199 here to say this. I am strong, I am brave, 629 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,159 I am a fighter. You do not get to control 630 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,880 how I move forward in that sense of taking power 631 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,159 back exactly, And she finished by saying, Xana's story does 632 00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:59,719 not end with what was taken from her. 633 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 4: It ends with her light. 634 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 3: I love this, and this I think is something that 635 00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:10,679 I hope will provide some degree of comfort because we 636 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,960 feel the same way about my sister Kathy. She was 637 00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,360 on the planet for twenty seven years and did a 638 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,280 lot of amazing things and made a difference in many 639 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,119 people's lives, and we try to focus on that, not 640 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,079 what happened one night in October. 641 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,159 Speaker 6: Yeah, there was a lot of discussion in the family's 642 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:34,039 impact statements about taking back the narrative of the story 643 00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:37,960 from Brian Coberger, people saying they will not allow themselves 644 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,280 to be victims. They will go forward on their own terms. Bill, 645 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,679 as the brother of a murder victim, does that resonate 646 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,000 with you about being able to take the narrative and 647 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,800 make it about moving forward and healing? 648 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:54,079 Speaker 2: Oh very much. 649 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 3: I think this is wonderful what they did, what they said, 650 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:03,599 this idea. I think they probably talked about it, certainly 651 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:08,639 as families, about their frustrations. Obviously they go through the loss, 652 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,719 which they're still recovering from, and then the insanity that 653 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,599 has surrounded this case. You have to feel like you've 654 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:20,519 lost control of your own life on some level. 655 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,159 Speaker 2: This really resonated with me. 656 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 3: We feel the same way regarding the Colonial Parkway murders. 657 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 2: There are some differences. They have a live. 658 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 3: Suspect who's admitted guilt in these cases, so there's someone 659 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,559 to focus on. 660 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:40,079 Speaker 2: We don't have that right now. 661 00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:43,599 Speaker 3: We have Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, who's been identified as 662 00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:47,400 the killer in one of our double homicides, and hopefully, 663 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,880 if the FBI and the Virginia State Police continue to 664 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,760 do their job properly, will have more information about is 665 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,960 it Wilmer or is it someone else? There are certainly 666 00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:01,920 accomplices have been mentioned to us by the investigators, but 667 00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:03,679 still nothing definitive. 668 00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: But the idea that these. 669 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,599 Speaker 3: Families and friends had an opportunity to address the killer directly, 670 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,079 I think has great benefit. 671 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 6: This idea also of taking back the narrative. I feel 672 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,639 like for a case like the Colonial Parkway murders, where 673 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:26,119 there is so many aspects of misinformation still out that 674 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,519 I feel one of the ways that you, guys, although 675 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,559 you don't have a living perpetrator, I feel like one 676 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:34,079 of the ways of taking back the narrative is something 677 00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:39,119 even as simple as correcting the misconceptions and the misperceptions 678 00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:42,480 of what goes along, even when it stings as simple 679 00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:44,159 as oh, all the cars. 680 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 4: Were running when they were found on the parkway. 681 00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 6: I think that addressing the issues that come up as 682 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,320 the story is told year after year is certainly similar 683 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,239 to that kind of taking back the narrative. 684 00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:01,119 Speaker 3: And something that's come up in the last months especially, 685 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:08,440 is we're seeing these horrible AI generated stories, mostly on YouTube, 686 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,920 but they show up on a number of other platforms. 687 00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:17,599 They're voiced by a computer. They supposedly are giving you 688 00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:22,239 the story of the Colonial Parkway murders. Tons of misinformation, 689 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:28,280 lots of facts wrong, mispronounced names. They failed to mention 690 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,639 that at least one of the Colonial Parkway murders has 691 00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:39,280 been solved. They're just slocky and stupid and insulting. Those 692 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,039 are incredibly frustrating. Now, obviously one of my goals in 693 00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:46,679 terms of our public outreach is to try to at. 694 00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 2: Least get the facts. 695 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 3: Straight on the Colonial Parkway murders and push back against 696 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,119 the misinformation. Oh my gosh, this drek that comes out 697 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,440 with these AI generated computer or robot voices telling us 698 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:06,079 what the story of the Colonial Parkway murders is all about, 699 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,559 and getting fact after fact after name after place wrong. 700 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 2: It's just infuriating. 701 00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 3: Now, I don't feel like I'm being attacked personally or 702 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,039 anything like that, which actually, sadly, some of these families, 703 00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:25,039 particularly the roommates, were actually attacked and criticized. 704 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,159 Speaker 2: Which is just horrible. Why would you do that? 705 00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 3: And this is where our ongoing conversation about ethics and 706 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,039 true crime we have to remember these are not fictional characters. Yeah, 707 00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:40,800 this isn't some made up story. This really happened to 708 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,400 these people, including their roommates. And why in the world 709 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:48,280 would you want to attack them and criticize them and 710 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,800 make death threats. 711 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,679 Speaker 4: And it's heartbreaking. The next family member to speak with 712 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:54,440 Jeff Cernadel. 713 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 6: He was Zanna's father, who shared a particularly heartbreaking if only. 714 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,880 He said that the last time he spoke to Xana, 715 00:40:03,079 --> 00:40:07,199 she told him she wasn't feeling well. He had considered 716 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,480 it and then ultimately opted not to go to the 717 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:12,599 King Road House to visit her that night, but he 718 00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:15,280 said he wished that he had. He said that if 719 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,280 he had been at the King Road House, the four 720 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,360 victims would have had a chance. 721 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so hard though, because there's some self blame 722 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,679 being mixed in there, and I hope he can ultimately 723 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,239 let that go. I feel terrible for mister Carnadle. I 724 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,360 understand why he feels that way, but I'm hoping he 725 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,079 can let that go over time, agreed. 726 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 6: Kim and Stratton carn Xanna's aunt and uncle, both spoke. 727 00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:46,480 Kim acknowledged the love and support among all four families. 728 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,559 She expressed her gratitude for the family that they have 729 00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:52,599 built in the midst of all of this horror. 730 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 4: She said, this tragedy has united us. 731 00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:59,119 Speaker 6: We are stronger together and that's something that was echoed 732 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:02,480 a number of times. She also stated that she has 733 00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:06,000 tried her hardest to forgive Brian Coburger, and she said 734 00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:08,760 it's not because he deserves it, but because she cannot 735 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,559 carry that hatred around in her heart. She actually spoke 736 00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:15,400 directly to him and offered to be a sounding board 737 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,280 for him if he ever wished to contact her and 738 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:19,199 talk to her. 739 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:22,079 Speaker 4: Obviously, that's not something she has to do. 740 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 6: I wouldn't be able to do that, but that feeling 741 00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:28,559 of needing to not carry the hatred forward with her. 742 00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:31,079 She's a bigger person than i'll than I could be, 743 00:41:31,199 --> 00:41:33,400 that's for sure, But I understand why she would need 744 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:33,840 to do that. 745 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,679 Speaker 2: I had a similar reaction. 746 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 3: I don't think I could do this, but I admire 747 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,760 her for having that room in her heart to do that. 748 00:41:43,679 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 6: And Stratton Corn the uncle, offered his sympathy to brain 749 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,119 Coberger's own family. Burger's mom was in the courtroom. She 750 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,880 listened to the impact statements. She cried other times, she 751 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,639 held her head in her hands. To her credit, she 752 00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:02,320 stayed there the whole time. Told brain Koberger that he 753 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,000 felt sorry for his family, whose name is now tainted 754 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,360 by their association with him. And I think he's got 755 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,039 a very good point. I do feel sorry for his family. 756 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,800 They didn't ask for their son to be a spree killer. 757 00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:19,079 We have so much more that we want to continue 758 00:42:19,119 --> 00:42:22,960 to talk about regarding the sentencing hearing and victim's impact statement. 759 00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:26,079 So we're going to carry this over into a second episode. 760 00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:29,440 Stay tuned for our next episode of mind Over Murder. 761 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,119 We'll continue with this conversation for now. Thank you so 762 00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:35,880 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 763 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 764 00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:50,960 Another Dog Productions. 765 00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 766 00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:57,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 767 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin mc out. 768 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 769 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 770 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,519 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 771 00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:13,400 Murders on Facebook. 772 00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:16,199 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 773 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:17,840 Bill Thomas five six. 774 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder