WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.120 Wait, the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.080 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.039 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.719 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.839 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.600 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.280 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:33.039 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 13 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.359 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 14 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.280 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 15 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.000 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 16 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:43.520 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 17 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.000 Chumpbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 18 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:51.119 you can play for free, anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 19 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.679 That's your brighten your day low actually a lot, so 20 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.119 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck 21 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:58.039 Casino dot com. 22 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.039 We're necessary lost your red fading clay. 23 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.079 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 24 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:22.560 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 26 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 28 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.400 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 29 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.840 Good Evening. Growing up on Cape cod in the nineteen sixties, 30 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.000 Liza Rodman was a lonely little girl during the summers 31 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.480 while her mother worked days in a local motel and 32 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.920 dance most nights in the provincetown's bars. Her babysitter, the kind, 33 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:02.439 handsome handyman at the motel where her mother worked, took 34 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.879 her and her sister on adventures in his truck. He 35 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.360 bought them popsicles, and together they visited his secret garden 36 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:12.520 in the Trueau Woods. To Eliza, he was one of 37 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.919 the few kind and understanding adults in her life. Everyone 38 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.840 thought he was just a great guy. But there was 39 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.680 one thing she didn't know. Their babysitter was a serial killer, 40 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.680 and some of the victims were buried in pieces right 41 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.400 there in his garden in the woods. Though Tony Costa's 42 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.840 gruesome case made screaming headlines in nineteen sixty nine and beyond. 43 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.000 Eliza never made the connection between her friendly babysitter and 44 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.759 the infamous killer of numerous women, including four in Massachusetts 45 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:48.680 until decades later. Haunted by nightmares and horrified by what 46 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.919 she learned, Eliza became obsessed with the case. Now, she 47 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.639 and co writer Jennifer Jordan revealed the chilling and unforgettable 48 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:00.439 true story of a charming but brutal psychopath through the 49 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.840 eyes of a young girl who once called them her friend. 50 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.639 The book that we were featuring this evening is The 51 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.840 Babysitter My Summers with a Serial Killer, with my special 52 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.800 guest authors and journalists E. Liza Rodman and Jennifer Jordan. 53 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.199 Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for 54 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:23.879 this interview. E. Liza Rodman and Jennifer Jordan, Thank you, Dan, 55 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:28.080 thank you so much. This is a credible story and 56 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:34.439 let's get right to this amazing story. Now, this book 57 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:39.039 is written by two authors, but you guys are longtime friends. 58 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:45.000 Tell us, Jennifer, how this book project originated. 59 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.719 It originated over Wow, I'm going to date myself over 60 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.159 forty years ago when I was percolating a pot of 61 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.840 coffee in college, and through the door came first a 62 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.560 coffee mug and then already e Liza asking for a 63 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:04.280 cup of real coffee after you know, months of the 64 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:08.000 swill served in the cafeteria. And that was the beginning 65 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:11.680 of a friendship and a lifelong friendship for us. And 66 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.280 we would hitchhike home to my dad in Vermont and 67 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:19.360 to do the infamous Betty in Boston on weekends, and 68 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.360 we spent a summer cleaning toilets on on the coast 69 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.920 of Oregon. And you know, here we are, as I say, 70 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:27.560 forty some years later. 71 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.959 Tell us Liza about this book project and its origins. 72 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:42.199 Okay, for you. I started having nightmares in two thousand 73 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.279 and five. I was working on my thesis for my 74 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.079 bachelor's degree, and I started having these dreams that were 75 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:51.480 all kind of similar in nature. They all had an 76 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.399 anonymous face. And during the process of working on my thesis, 77 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:57.920 I was journaling and doing other things. So I started 78 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.120 writing these dreams down and I was always being hunted 79 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.480 in them, and you know, just near death, and I'd 80 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.079 wake up and they really started to come faster and 81 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:17.120 faster and more violent. And then one night I dreamt of, 82 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.360 you know, the same kind of dream. But I saw 83 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:27.120 Tony's face and I was stunned. He backed me right 84 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.279 up against the wall in the motel, which you'll read 85 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.399 about in The Babysitter, and he backed me up against 86 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:35.920 the wall with a gun and he put it right 87 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.920 to my forehead. And so when I woke up, I 88 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.279 was like, WHOA, Now I have a face. I need 89 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.959 to start asking some questions. And so the next time 90 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.279 I had the opportunity, I took it with my mother 91 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.079 and my aunt, who I refer to her as my 92 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:55.079 aunt in the book, and I referred to her as 93 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.120 my aunt in life. But she was my mother's best 94 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.319 friend and she was the one who built the Royal 95 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.800 Coachman Motel. So I had them both at my house 96 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:08.560 for dinner, and I started asking them questions about Tony. 97 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.959 What do you remember about Tony because I'm having these 98 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:18.439 incredible nightmares. And basically they said to me, well, we 99 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.839 know he became a serial killer. And you know, it 100 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.160 was one of those moments where everything slows down and 101 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.480 all of a sudden starts to align. And I said, 102 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.959 what do you mean he became a serial killer? And 103 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.920 so from there we went. I started researching because I 104 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:38.639 couldn't let it go because now I'm saying to myself, 105 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:41.800 you know, I'm fearful of this. I've got this going on. 106 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.199 Some of this might make sense. Who was this guy 107 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:50.680 I remember as a sweet guy? And how come I 108 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:55.800 didn't know that somewhere along the line the murders that 109 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:59.480 we knew had happened in Provincetown. I didn't. No one 110 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:04.279 told me him. So that is how the whole thing 111 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.800 started in two thousand and five. And from there I 112 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:13.560 researched and wrote and tried to put it away and 113 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.680 didn't really you know, some of the what I was 114 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.959 finding out was really ugly, and I was trying to 115 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.360 match who I knew him to be with who I 116 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.560 was reading about him as an adult, who he really was. 117 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.879 And so that's that's how we got into it. 118 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:36.639 Interesting, now, Jennifer, when did you come into the process 119 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.519 of writing this book and tell us about that Taple? 120 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:40.519 Yeah? 121 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.800 Yeah, I came into the process when Lives I was 122 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.560 visiting Boston. I had since moved to Utah, and I 123 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.639 was visiting Boston and sitting up on sitting on Liza's 124 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.560 couches with our toes Tuck talking as we have been 125 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.560 doing for you know, thirty something years at that point, 126 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:00.519 and she said, yeah, you know, I've started having these 127 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.279 nightmares and it's crazy and I'm trying to write it down, 128 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.639 she told me. And I said, oh my god. I 129 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:08.879 mean there's a book there and that, and you know 130 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:10.839 you've been struggling. I know you've been struggling to kind 131 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.720 of get this out of you and onto the page. 132 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.399 There's the book The Babysitter. And so in the ensuing years, 133 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.920 I would say, so, how's The Babysitter coming? So how 134 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:22.439 are you doing on that project? It's going to be 135 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.800 a hell of a book. How are you doing? And 136 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.680 she would kind of put, you know, fingers to the ears, 137 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:29.680 going la la, la la. I can't talk about it. 138 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.559 It's too convoluted, it's too troubling. It's just taking me 139 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:36.679 down dark holes and rabbit holes and I don't want 140 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:38.360 to go there. And I don't know about how to 141 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.320 do the structure. And so when I got to a 142 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.960 point in my career when I was between books, and 143 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.639 I had just ghost written the book for actually one 144 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:51.639 of the victims of the Boston marathon bombings, and that 145 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.519 book was written in four different voices. So I knew, 146 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:58.159 I knew how to tackle the structure of this book. 147 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.840 I knew that it had to be Liza's young voice, 148 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.240 eight nine ten year old voice in memoir form, and 149 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.200 I knew it also had to be in the omniscient 150 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:13.039 narrator voice of And meanwhile, after he took the girls 151 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.639 for popsicles, he went out to his garden and checked 152 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.879 on his bodies in the woods. And so I said, listen, 153 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.399 let me help you at that point when I was 154 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.279 between books, and Liza just kind of burst into tears 155 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:28.960 and said, oh my god, I was afraid to ask 156 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.399 you for help. And Dan, here we are. You know 157 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:34.679 how many years later, three, four or five years later. 158 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:41.960 Incredible. Let's talk about the process itself, the investigation that 159 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:48.399 you literally undertake, but also what source materials that you used, 160 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:53.240 and some of your impressions along the way in this process. 161 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:57.120 Such a good question I started. So I started in 162 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.039 two thousand and five looking around, and you know, so 163 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.799 the Internet wasn't quite as well developed then as it 164 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:05.120 is now, but there were some ways there. It pointed 165 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:07.840 me in some different directions. And I started by trying 166 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:12.679 to get the trial transcript from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 167 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.679 And after I waited for three months for them to 168 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:19.320 get back to me, and they get back to me 169 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.399 three months later and said, gee, we can't find it. 170 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:24.759 So I went on my own search, and I found 171 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:30.039 it in an archive in another author's papers after he'd 172 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:35.919 passed away in Kent, Ohio. So that sort of led 173 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.879 me down the road of this author had gotten he'd 174 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.399 written a book on the case many many moons ago, 175 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.159 nineteen eighty one, I think, is when it came out, 176 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:49.120 and he had sort of focused on the trial and 177 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:55.399 the investigation and you know, the truthful specifics of the case. 178 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.039 And he had a great relationship with the state police 179 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.879 because he was an old newspaper reporter. And so I 180 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:08.159 found that he had boxes of evidence from the police 181 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:11.120 that were in his possession when he passed away, and 182 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.159 so I had access to everything. I had the investigator's notebooks, 183 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.519 I had, you know, notes scratched on pieces of paper 184 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.679 over lunch. I had interviews with every witness and even 185 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.759 some non witnesses. As it turned out, I had all 186 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.759 the police stuff. I had all the defense stuff because 187 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:38.399 all of Maurice Goldman, who was Tony's defense attorney, I 188 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:42.559 also had all of his work papers. Had I found 189 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:47.679 personal effects of Tony's I found danteen gum, I found 190 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.879 Tony's sunglasses. So over the years, and it was many 191 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.080 at that point, so two thousand and five to probably 192 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:59.919 twenty fourteen, before I wrote a first draft, I did 193 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.279 this research in these archives, in other in libraries on 194 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:09.799 the Cape, in you know, searching newspaper microfiche, because microfiche 195 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.279 was still a big thing then, so that I could 196 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.679 get all the newspaper articles. And what I was trying 197 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:18.399 to do was match up the man I knew to 198 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.840 the man these papers were describing because they were so 199 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.559 opposite one another, and so it took me quite a 200 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:27.120 long time. 201 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.600 Now, Eliza, you were involved in this as well, and 202 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.639 so you know Tony from a completely different perspective. And 203 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.480 like you say, you found out after all of those 204 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.000 years at this person that was your babysitter, that your 205 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:47.799 friend was this heinous serial killer. So what was what 206 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.240 was the process like for you in terms of finding 207 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.360 out information about your friend, your babysitter. 208 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:57.279 Well, that was it wasn't It was? It was looking 209 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:01.720 through these archives and saying, wow, I don't recognize this 210 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.960 person and why didn't anyone tell me? And so then 211 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.919 I went back and I started talking to other people 212 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.919 who were there with me at the time and trying 213 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.639 to corroborate some of my own memories, trying to say, well, 214 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.679 I remember it this way, what do you remember, Just 215 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:21.720 so I could get a feel for where my own 216 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.360 the validity of my own memories, and put them up 217 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.759 against what I was finding out about this serial killer. 218 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.720 And we were, you know, more than one time, I'd 219 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:36.000 say more than ten times the phrase he was just 220 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.200 a great guy. Everybody liked him. The guys at the 221 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:42.120 front desk all liked him, My aunt and my mother 222 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.879 certainly liked him. As children, we all liked him, And 223 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:52.200 I particularly liked his mother. So you know, she was 224 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:56.120 warmer than he and around more often than he. And 225 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.919 because my mother I had such a difficult relationship with 226 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.759 my mother, she was perfect. She was perfect. She used 227 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.440 to wrap me up in her arms and listen to 228 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:10.120 me chatter on and whatever else. So I always remembered 229 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:14.600 her as well. And so you know, when Jen came 230 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:20.080 on board in twenty eighteen to help me make this 231 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:26.519 a real functioning book, we worked really hard to make 232 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.960 sure that the characters were we were portraying now, so 233 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.840 this would be Cecilia who I just spoke about, and 234 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:37.000 my own mother, and Tony and my aunt and on 235 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.519 and on and on, to make them as three dimensional 236 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:44.720 as we possibly could. And the way we did that, 237 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:47.960 at least in the beginning, as jen has said, is 238 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.360 to put those two voices out there up against one 239 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.559 another and let them do their you know, make their magic. 240 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:59.799 The way that history remembers Tony and the ray that 241 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:04.279 I I remember Tony you. 242 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.159 Talk about, you write about Tony's sad and sordid history. 243 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.919 You talk about his mother, but also his marriage early 244 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.360 on to a woman much younger Avis, and you talk 245 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:21.600 about doctor Callus again, another important character in this. But 246 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:25.639 but tell us, Jennifer, some of the background that you 247 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:30.879 found about Tony and his in his early history. 248 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.000 Right, And that's one of the ironies for me, as 249 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.720 you know, as a as an investigative journalist and as 250 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:42.960 as as a writer, The irony that Tony grew up with, 251 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.519 by all intents and purposes, a loving, nurturing woman whom 252 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.399 Liza adored and would just you know, sit in the 253 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.679 laundry room with Cecilia and help Ufold towels by the hour, 254 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:02.799 and and Liza was raised by Betty, who was an abusive, 255 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:07.440 neglectible mother. And yet Tony became the serial killer, and 256 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.799 Liza became the generous, loving woman that she is. So 257 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:17.679 there's for me looking at this and the juxtaposition of 258 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:22.360 these two mothers and these two children was a fascinating 259 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.360 look at character and what happened. And in Toni's case, 260 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.360 I'm not sure we'll ever know what happened to him. 261 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:35.120 You know, obviously, the truth itself died with him. And 262 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:39.600 what Cecilia may or may not have done it to 263 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:43.320 him in his childhood to create a monster, We'll never know. 264 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.360 That we know a lot more than we ever did 265 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.720 fifty years ago, certainly about mental health issues, about psychopathy, 266 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.919 about what makes a monster. And we know that Tony 267 00:16:55.480 --> 00:17:00.799 certainly had all the characteristics of a you know, of 268 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.839 a serial killer and of a psychopath. But we will 269 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:10.039 never know exactly what broke that psyche, what broke that 270 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.839 that little bull boys soul. And uh, you know, he 271 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.480 tried to blame it on draw his defense, tried to 272 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.920 blame it on drugs, and yet you know, drugs don't 273 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.880 make a killer. So you know, it was. It was 274 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.599 for me, just one of the most fascinating investigations I've 275 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:28.119 ever done. 276 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:36.519 Elijah, What are your memories of Tony? We just we 277 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.839 alluded to them and we talked about them briefly. But 278 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.359 what are some of the things we Jennifer just described 279 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.319 him as this psychopathic killer, right, which you didn't. You didn't. 280 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:49.359 You didn't see him as that. So what was the 281 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.680 what was your time with him characterized by tell us 282 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:55.440 a little bit about your time with Tony? 283 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:02.160 Okay, So my aunt tells a great story about So 284 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.279 Tony was looking for work. He was always all for work, Yeah, 285 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:12.240 and so he came to work through his mother at 286 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:16.000 the Royal Coachman, where my mother was working. And that's 287 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:20.839 the same hotel that my aunt owned. And so as 288 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:25.279 he started doing his handyman work in his carpentry, and 289 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.720 he did a lot of trash hauling back and forth, 290 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:29.920 because in a motel like that, you have a ton 291 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.039 of trash. And so the dump runs were really frequent, 292 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.759 sometimes twice a day. Now, my aunt tells a great story. 293 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.519 She says Tony would come up the driveway either on 294 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:45.440 his bicycle or in his dilapid some dilapidated old car 295 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.319 that he was driving. I know he at one point 296 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.880 he had a blue Bonneville, you know, in nineteen sixty 297 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:55.519 something Bonneville. So he'd come up the driveway and she'd holler, 298 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.680 here comes Tony, and we'd all throw our towels around us, 299 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:04.559 and out we'd go and beg to go in the 300 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.559 truck with Tony because it was fun and he was 301 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:10.240 all over the place. I mean he was, you know. 302 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.319 I joke about the fact that we probably went from 303 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.200 every dump on the Lower Cape at one point or 304 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.680 another with him. It wasn't the days when you had 305 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.680 to have a dump pass so that you could get in. 306 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.559 You could go anywhere. And Jen often will tell the 307 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.599 story about Norman Mayler how he described Provincetown in those 308 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.400 days as the wild west of the East, and that's 309 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:38.720 exactly what it was. It was a place where people 310 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:43.640 could get lost. The culture of the sixties was coming out. 311 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.799 It was sort of nineteen sixties. Let it all hang 312 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.200 out was a phrase my mother used to like to use, 313 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:54.640 And so it was a free for all and kind 314 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:58.319 of a wild, windy, sunny day, sand in your face 315 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.799 free for all. And so everych opportunity we got. We 316 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.920 wanted to go with Tony because he was fun and 317 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.160 he always had the radio on in the utility truck 318 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.400 from the Royal Coachman. He would then get in the truck. 319 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:14.599 They had an old green truck, and he would get 320 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.240 in the truck and we would get in the big 321 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.799 what do you call it, the bench seat in the front. 322 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.160 You know, there were no bucket feats in those days, 323 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.440 and so we'd slide in there in our bathing suits 324 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.079 and our flip flops and go along for the ride. 325 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:35.680 And I will say this he as is written in 326 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.359 the book. He used to get us ice cream. There 327 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.680 was a soda machine right there by where the truck 328 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.680 pulled up. We'd get a soda we'd get He took 329 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:49.799 us out for ice cream. Who knows what he was doing. 330 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.759 I don't have nefarious memories of what he was doing 331 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.920 other than emptying trash, and thank god I don't, or 332 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.480 at least I don't have any that I've uncovered. But 333 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.519 for us, it was like that cousin. I used to 334 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:07.240 have a female cousin and she was a few years 335 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.880 older than me, and I wanted to be her right. 336 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:13.200 I wanted her to hang around with her, to tag 337 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:16.200 along after her, to do what she did, listen to 338 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.839 what she listened to, and be who she was. And 339 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.359 that's how it was with him. He just was fun, 340 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.000 and so we wanted to be with fun because it 341 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.079 wasn't so fun to be hanging around the Royal Coachman 342 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.279 with some adult yelling at you all day long. And 343 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.920 we had also other babysitters at the time, and some 344 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:41.240 of them are really heinous, So in comparison to the 345 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.839 heinous babysitters, when Tony would come up the driveway, we 346 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:46.519 were like, let's get out of here. And we were 347 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.279 little kids, so we just wanted to relax and be 348 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.079 in the company of someone who wasn't screaming at us 349 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:53.680 all the time. 350 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:59.119 And she was that guy, and not only not screaming 351 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.160 at you all the time, but really treating you like 352 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.720 a peer, I mean, complimenting your music memory and complimenting 353 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:11.480 your you know, long deer legs and you know, really 354 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.599 really looking at you and making you feel like a 355 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:20.319 gros making you feel like you know, some important one 356 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:24.880 of He used to call his female followers his kid chicks, 357 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.000 and Liva felt like, you know, one of the kid 358 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.960 chicks in grooming, you know, to be and so you know, 359 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.720 she sat there, you know, kind kind of blushing, blushing 360 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.079 with the attention that Tony would bestow on her. 361 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:43.519 Yeah, and he didn't have a father either. And it's 362 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:48.440 a significant point that I remember those conversations because I 363 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.640 when when the book describes me as a lonely little girl, 364 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:55.839 lonely insomuch as I missed my father, right, and so 365 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.880 in a lot of ways, he was like that. He 366 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.000 was like a father figure. Or he was about the 367 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.359 same age as my father, maybe just a little younger. 368 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:09.279 He was strapping and good looking and kind and so 369 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.440 like I imagined my father to be my absent father, 370 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.720 and Tony also didn't have a father. And I remembered 371 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.720 those conversations. It was one of the things that drew 372 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:25.759 me in initially when I realized who Tony was to 373 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.559 both to me and to the world. And then I 374 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:34.400 suddenly was like, my god, look how close this could 375 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:38.640 have been, this conversation about my father. I always remembered it, 376 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:42.240 and I always remembered the kindness I thought because of it, 377 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:47.079 we sort of shared that little wound, and so it 378 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:52.279 was it was intoxicating to be with a guy like 379 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.680 that who was kind to you. Really, I mean, those 380 00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.759 are the only memories I have of Tony. He took 381 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.720 us out to those Trureau woods and any number of times. 382 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.400 I couldn't give you a number of times, but I've 383 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:10.680 pieced together the memories I have in the narrative because 384 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:14.200 we were that was a place he went on a 385 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.160 regular basis, as it turns out from the research, because 386 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.079 he had his drugs stashed out there, He had his 387 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:24.720 later on in nineteen sixty eight, he had his body 388 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:29.240 stashed out there, He had his weapons stashed out there, 389 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.839 He had coffee cans buried under the ground. In fact, 390 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.200 that's where they found the gun that killed these last 391 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:42.160 two women was at the base of a tree right 392 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:44.920 out there in that secret garden, if you will. He 393 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.680 had marijuana growing out there. Wasn't much of a garden, 394 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.200 but he thought it was. And that was another place 395 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.599 where he and I because my grandfather lived next door 396 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.559 to us growing up and he was a huge gardener. 397 00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.759 So it was something I learned, like you learned to 398 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:04.079 write a bike before you know that you're learning, And 399 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.319 so knew. I thought, here I am, I'm eight, I'm nine. 400 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.039 I know gardening. I can talk to Tony about gardening 401 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:16.200