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<v Speaker 1>Doug Acts. Thank you for joining me on a commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me here. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So I want to have you on today to discuss

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<v Speaker 1>a new film called The Story of Everything. But before

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<v Speaker 1>we get into that, I kind of want you to

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<v Speaker 1>introduce yourself and give me the story of Doug X

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<v Speaker 1>and how you got involved with something like the Story

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<v Speaker 1>of Everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, I actually became really interested in apologetics as a

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<v Speaker 2>young believer, came to faith in my teen years. In

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<v Speaker 2>my undergrad years, I went to UC Berkeley as an undergraduate, encountered,

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<v Speaker 2>as you might expect, tension between the dominant worldview on

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<v Speaker 2>campus and the dominant worldview of my teachers, my professors,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Christian worldview. And there was a particular lecture

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<v Speaker 2>where a chemistry professor used a lecture on thermodynamics of

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<v Speaker 2>all things to criticize faith and the existence of God.

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<v Speaker 2>And it didn't shake my faith at the time. But

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<v Speaker 2>what it did instead is it stirred a passion in

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<v Speaker 2>me for apologetics because I felt like this guy was

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<v Speaker 2>abusing his podium. He's supposed to be teaching these nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>year olds about chemistry, and instead he was using the

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<v Speaker 2>podium to do something else, and I just started praying

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<v Speaker 2>and feeling as though there's room for people to do science,

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<v Speaker 2>to argue for the basic foundational principles of feis a

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<v Speaker 2>man Christianity. And I don't know whether I was seeing

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<v Speaker 2>at the time that I would be a part of that,

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<v Speaker 2>but I was interested in being a part of that.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, if you pray prayers like that, the

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<v Speaker 2>Lord often says, Okay, you go do that. And so

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<v Speaker 2>that's what happened. A bunch of doors opened and I

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<v Speaker 2>just kept walking through them, and lots of there was

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to sound like a saint here, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot of my own pride mixed up in this.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the Lord used, over a period of

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<v Speaker 2>years challenges and hardship that I encountered by pursuing the

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<v Speaker 2>argument for intelligent design to bring a humble posture in

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<v Speaker 2>me and to make me realize I'm not the only

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<v Speaker 2>one who can do this. God doesn't need me to

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<v Speaker 2>do this, and the glory is ultimately God's not mine.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's what got me along this arc. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I met Steve Meyer way back in nineteen ninety when

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<v Speaker 2>I was at Cambridge with my wife. He returned on

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<v Speaker 2>a trip to Cambridge to do his thesis defense. They

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<v Speaker 2>call it a viva in the British system, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>when we met. I think it was December nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 2>So all the people in this film virtually everyone I

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<v Speaker 2>know personally, there's a few exceptions. I've been involved in

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<v Speaker 2>this a long time. It's been a huge blessing. My

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<v Speaker 2>wife and I look back at those hard times or

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<v Speaker 2>the like what's going on here? And as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you walk in in the Lord for a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>you can often say, well, I never would have chosen that,

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<v Speaker 2>But I can see now that God knew what he

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<v Speaker 2>was doing. It's been consistently the case.

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<v Speaker 1>Amen. Yeah, I mean man plans God laughs. That's one

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<v Speaker 1>of the maxims that I love buy. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>never never be surprised by the path that we're going down.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that I never expected to be sitting in

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<v Speaker 1>this chair. Apologetics was not my favorite thing growing up,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think it's because I grew up in the

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<v Speaker 1>underbelly and I was just so exposed to it. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just just so you know who you're working

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<v Speaker 1>with here. My first d was in high school biology.

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<v Speaker 1>So when I when.

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<v Speaker 2>Before we got cookies on the bottom, Sholf, Is that

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<v Speaker 2>what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we started talking or recording, I said, you know you,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone at the Christian Research Institute said that you are

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<v Speaker 1>better than Jay Richards, so that you can tell him

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<v Speaker 1>that at making the complex simple. So that's what you're

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<v Speaker 1>working with. But I never really that's one of the

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<v Speaker 1>best I've I've never really had any doubts about. And

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<v Speaker 1>the heavens declare the glory of God, show the work

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<v Speaker 1>of his hands. You know, there's plenty plenty of things

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<v Speaker 1>in life that caused me to kind of stare off

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<v Speaker 1>into the distance and wonder or stare at the ceiling. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, and theological misrepresentations or misunderstandings, Yeah, that kept

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<v Speaker 1>me up at night. Creation never really did, and that

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<v Speaker 1>put me at odds quite often with the prevailing worldview.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just to me it was self evident. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think the retort would always be, well, you're religious,

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<v Speaker 1>of course you feel that way, But I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>that that was the main reason. Do you understand what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying, is it was does my intuition line up

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<v Speaker 1>with reality in that case or is it a case

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<v Speaker 1>of you believe in God? And you're interpreting it and

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<v Speaker 1>you're kind of cooking the books so that it works

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<v Speaker 1>to your advantage.

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<v Speaker 2>No. I think in my book called Undeniable, how biology

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<v Speaker 2>confirms our intuition that life is designed starts off without observation.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just my observation. Other people have noticed

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<v Speaker 2>that humans from an early age, when they look at

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<v Speaker 2>the world, they into it that there must be a creator.

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<v Speaker 2>I love this quote from UC Berkeley psychology professor Alison Gopnik.

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<v Speaker 2>She said, by elementary school age, children start to invoke

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<v Speaker 2>an ultimate godlike designer, even children brought up as atheists.

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<v Speaker 2>So and she thought this is a problem. So her

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<v Speaker 2>take on this was, you know, by the time kids

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<v Speaker 2>are being taught the truth of evolution, they've got this

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<v Speaker 2>other intuition that has become quite solid in their minds,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a problem. So we should start early, like

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<v Speaker 2>preschool age, and have pop up books that teach these

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<v Speaker 2>young kids about the truth, the Darwinian the truth, the

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<v Speaker 2>Darwinian truth about how we came to be. But when

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<v Speaker 2>I read that, I thought, no, this is really really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting that there's something innate in humans. When you're a

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<v Speaker 2>young child and you see a butterfly. You know, you

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<v Speaker 2>just know. But that came from someone from a godlike designer,

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<v Speaker 2>As Alison Gothnik said, even if your parents are never

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<v Speaker 2>telling you about God. So no, that intuition is firm.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand why some people doubt and why believers. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the psalms are filled with these psalms of lament where

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<v Speaker 2>firm believers like David can go through seasons of like

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<v Speaker 2>are He's not doubting whether God exists, but he can

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<v Speaker 2>doubt whether God is listening to him, is watching him,

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<v Speaker 2>cares about his circumstances. And that's a very common thing

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<v Speaker 2>for believers to go through. And I think those psalms

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<v Speaker 2>are there to minister to believers during those times. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, Like I said, plenty of theological questions to keep

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<v Speaker 1>me up at night. Yeah, but when I look out

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<v Speaker 1>the window and see just the beauty of God's creation

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<v Speaker 1>that was self evident to me. There are two competing

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<v Speaker 1>narratives or stories of reality, right, there's a mindful, purposeful

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<v Speaker 1>God like intelligence behind it or mindless, undirected purposelessness. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that a fair way to frame the debate?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And the film does a good job of just

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<v Speaker 2>starting off saying here's your options. Here's the big auten.

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<v Speaker 1>How did this become the dominant view in science? And

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<v Speaker 1>more than anything, how did materialism win the not just

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<v Speaker 1>the minds, but the heart of so many modern people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a very interesting question, and it's not really

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<v Speaker 2>a science question because now we start talking about how

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<v Speaker 2>our culture is shaped and how do humans operate. I

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<v Speaker 2>think if you go back, it seems as though this

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<v Speaker 2>got a big push in the nineteenth century, because that's

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<v Speaker 2>when Darwin published his book eighteen fifty nine on the

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<v Speaker 2>a Species. But the rumblings of materialism you have way

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<v Speaker 2>earlier in the eighteenth century, and even before that, David Hume,

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<v Speaker 2>the philosopher, is really questioning whether it's rational to believe

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<v Speaker 2>that miracles could happen. And that's way before Darwin. You

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<v Speaker 2>have a number of thinkers who become empiricists. They're saying

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<v Speaker 2>that the only way you can know the truth is

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<v Speaker 2>through the scientific method. Bacon contributed to that. So Darwin's

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<v Speaker 2>writing at a time, this is Victorian time, when I

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<v Speaker 2>think he had his own personal reasons for wrestling. He

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<v Speaker 2>lost a daughter at a very young age and was

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<v Speaker 2>grieving over that. His faith may have been fragile prior

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<v Speaker 2>to that, and I think maybe that shattered his faith.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think part of what Darwin wanted to do

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<v Speaker 2>is distance God from evil. There's evil in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and when he sees his very young daughter died, that's

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<v Speaker 2>evil very clear to home. Part of his project, I

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<v Speaker 2>think was to say, how can we explain everything that

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<v Speaker 2>we see around us and put God at a distance

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<v Speaker 2>because and maybe his initial intention was I don't want God.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to think that God is directly associated

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<v Speaker 2>with things that go so horribly wrong. So maybe there's

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<v Speaker 2>a like a understandable intent there, but it ends up,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, creating a bigger problem than you started with.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I think it's like power play. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>people think that science is somehow above politics or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the petty human foibles that touch every other human sphere,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not. It's a bunch of humans competing for

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<v Speaker 2>money and for prestige. And in a mix like that

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<v Speaker 2>you always get bad things coming out. Power plays and

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<v Speaker 2>people trying to you know, people trying to dominate the

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<v Speaker 2>scene by ostracizing people who disagree with them, and that

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<v Speaker 2>plays itself out to this day in the scientific community,

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<v Speaker 2>like the other community.

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<v Speaker 1>Doug, you were you co wrote a book with the

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<v Speaker 1>aforementioned Jay Richards and somebody else called The Price of

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<v Speaker 1>Panic not Bridge, and you you ran right up to

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<v Speaker 1>that issue there, and that was something that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>even when we started promoting that book, we in the

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<v Speaker 1>midst of it, in the thick of it, I'm sitting

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<v Speaker 1>there thinking, are we sure?

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<v Speaker 2>Are we right?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh? That came out right in the I mean pretty

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<v Speaker 1>early on. I mean you were you were ahead of

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<v Speaker 1>the curve, so you had to be very confident with

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<v Speaker 1>what you were putting out there.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Very contrarian to the narrative that we were told. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if COVID was a bless and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't really want to get too deep into COVID, but

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<v Speaker 1>whether it might have been a blessing in the sense

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<v Speaker 1>of people saw what they were told and the reality

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<v Speaker 1>being so different. And I mean, how did you get

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<v Speaker 1>the bravery to kind of stick your neck out there?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So that The Price of Panic, How the tear

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<v Speaker 2>any of experts turned a pandemic into a catastrophe is

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<v Speaker 2>the book. That book came out in October twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>so we h it says William Briggs on the title,

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<v Speaker 2>but we know him as Matt Briggs. I've never actually

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<v Speaker 2>met him face to face, but we did a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of work over Google docs together. I was here in

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<v Speaker 2>La Jay was in on the East coast, and Matt

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<v Speaker 2>was stuck in Taiwan I think, and he couldn't lead

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<v Speaker 2>because the airports were closed. So we authored this in

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<v Speaker 2>about two months. It was a really fun project but crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>But I agree with you. What stirred in me was

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<v Speaker 2>everything looked crazy. I'm here in California. Gavin Newsom was

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<v Speaker 2>the first we were the first half a shutdown. It

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<v Speaker 2>was I think March fourteenth, twenty twenty or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys had a real shutdown, I mean in North Carolina.

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<v Speaker 1>I say we had it pretty easy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, light guys, you could go so we

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<v Speaker 2>would go to the beach here, you could go to

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<v Speaker 2>Huntington Beach and people were like, chill, we're not we're

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<v Speaker 2>not playing this game. But it was a very strange

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<v Speaker 2>era and just my my sense of this isn't usually

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<v Speaker 2>how America operates. We don't tell people to go home,

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<v Speaker 2>and how close they can get to other people.

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<v Speaker 1>And what bothered me how sorry it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I was gonna say, it's not how science is

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to operate, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, No, you clearly had politics change its way into

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<v Speaker 2>science because the administration at the time, the Biden administration

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<v Speaker 2>had and the CDC, so this is a government branch,

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<v Speaker 2>had their sort of policy that it came out with,

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<v Speaker 2>and they realized that a lot of people are going

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<v Speaker 2>to push back against this, and so you get government saying, well,

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<v Speaker 2>for the sake of public health, we need to suppress

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<v Speaker 2>counter information. And that's just not the way you'll operate

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<v Speaker 2>in a free society. You should so at the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>you could. You can recall the very beginning of the

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<v Speaker 2>operat there were multiple sides being debated and X on

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<v Speaker 2>both sides, and then very quickly one side becomes dominant.

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<v Speaker 2>It shuts down the other side. You know, it rails

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<v Speaker 2>against them and says, these people are not this is pseudoscience.

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<v Speaker 2>We're telling you the truth science. And I think you're right.

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<v Speaker 2>Seeing the scientific community behave so badly and get things

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<v Speaker 2>so wrong during COVID, I think I was thinking at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, one good thing that could come out of

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<v Speaker 2>this is downsizing our sort of we tend to idolize

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<v Speaker 2>sciences though it's a discipline that tells us the truth

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<v Speaker 2>and nothing about the truth. And there's something inherently virtuous

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<v Speaker 2>about everyone who's a scientist. And I think we saw

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<v Speaker 2>the way that played out. That's not the case. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to weigh and carefully assess things that come out

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<v Speaker 2>of scientific community just as you would out of politics

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<v Speaker 2>or out of big business or pharmaceuticals. These are all

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<v Speaker 2>human endeavors where there's lots of self interest at play,

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<v Speaker 2>and you have to kind of carefully, yeah, to step carefully. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and for so many science is a religion of sorts,

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<v Speaker 1>and so what happens in a scenario like that is

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<v Speaker 1>you start to develop almost a crisis of faith. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that this thing that I believed was you know, so

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<v Speaker 1>valiant and so value based, there was an underbelly, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was and and and you know, I remember,

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a priest, uh that's part of our parish.

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<v Speaker 1>But he's also a very well respected medical doctor. And

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<v Speaker 1>so we were talking to him about this and said,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't what do you think? And he would just

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<v Speaker 1>got he said, I've never seen science act this way before,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I've never seen let's say natural immunity denied

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<v Speaker 1>by a doctor until now there's something else in play here.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's kind of moving the needle for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And once you see that, then you start say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>where else is this?

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<v Speaker 1>Where else it it lied to me about that? What

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<v Speaker 1>else have you been lying to me about? And if

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<v Speaker 1>you treated me like that? And the reason that I

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<v Speaker 1>bring this up once again wasn't to kind of go

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<v Speaker 1>on a diatribe about COVID, but it is a good

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<v Speaker 1>point to jump off from to kind of say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>you treated me like this about that, and I may

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<v Speaker 1>have been largely right. The same is done to people

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<v Speaker 1>who advocate for intelligent design. That's pseudoscience, right, And I

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<v Speaker 1>think you alluded to some struggles earlier in the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure if that's what you were talking about,

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<v Speaker 1>but I know a lot of people in your shoes

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<v Speaker 1>are derided by their colleagues for their belief Is that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of what you were getting at?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I was removed from my position in Cambridge.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a long time ago now, two thousand and two,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was over this controversy. I didn't do anything wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>but the director of the center where I was working

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<v Speaker 2>did not want the controversy landing on his doorstep, so

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<v Speaker 2>he gave a false excuse. I got an email from

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<v Speaker 2>his assistant saying, we've run out of space. We need

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<v Speaker 2>you to leave. I had seniority in the place. It

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<v Speaker 2>is total nonsense, but I do understand that he did

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<v Speaker 2>not know the controversy that could hit the center when

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<v Speaker 2>I started putting out work that was being used by

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<v Speaker 2>the intelligent design community. He knew I was being funded

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<v Speaker 2>by Discovery Institute, by the way, and that didn't bother

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<v Speaker 2>him because money's money. Until things got hot, and then

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<v Speaker 2>he reacted.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, Well, you know you said early two thousands, I wonder,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean new atheism. When I had Jay Richards on

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast, he said, new atheism is dead. It's over,

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<v Speaker 1>like that era is over. I don't know if it's dead,

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<v Speaker 1>but I do see it to be to some degree

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<v Speaker 1>on life support. There's this concept of the surprising rebirth

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<v Speaker 1>of the belief in God, and it's gotten to a

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<v Speaker 1>point where I mean, when I was growing up, if

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<v Speaker 1>you had any form of belief that automatically took you

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<v Speaker 1>out of the realm of intelligent people, you know it

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<v Speaker 1>just you weren't taken seriously, I see that shifting. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you do you see that? I really want to know,

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<v Speaker 1>especially do you see that happening in the scientific community.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there is a shift. It can be difficult

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<v Speaker 2>to get, you know, a reliable read on this. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of it is you know, something observed here, something observed there,

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<v Speaker 2>and you start to thinking, huh, is something going on.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think there is a shift. There is a

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<v Speaker 2>shift both in the US and in the UK in

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<v Speaker 2>young people saying it used to have the nuns, the

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<v Speaker 2>rise of the nuns, like I have no religious affiliation,

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<v Speaker 2>and that trend has reversed, and there's now an uptick

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<v Speaker 2>in people who say I'm a Christian or I have

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<v Speaker 2>a religious commitment. And that's true in the UK, I

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<v Speaker 2>think throughout Europe, and it's true in the US as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So something's going on. I also, sort of anecdotally through conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>I think people are tired of the old stick, which is,

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<v Speaker 2>don't listen to those id people. They're a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, creationists in cheap tuxedos. As it was someone

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<v Speaker 2>said about us, The thing is, we keep going, and

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<v Speaker 2>we keep having evidence, and we keep having strong things

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<v Speaker 2>to offer. And I think this film, this film does

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<v Speaker 2>a great job of reversing that lie very very well

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<v Speaker 2>and showing atheists who had their own atheism challenged by

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<v Speaker 2>their research. And that's a pretty that's a pretty powerful

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<v Speaker 2>thing to have on the screen.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Doug, I told you before we recorded, you know

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<v Speaker 1>that tuxedo isn't cheap. This film is so well done.

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<v Speaker 1>It's based off of Stephen Meyer's book Return of the

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<v Speaker 1>God hypothesis. That is three big ideas that he kind

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<v Speaker 1>of bases this around. Could you explain what they are?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? Three? Okay, So it starts off with this, You've

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<v Speaker 2>got these two options you have. This is a universe

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<v Speaker 2>that was brought into being by a personal intelligent creator

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<v Speaker 2>or there's nothing but the material realm. And then it

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<v Speaker 2>does this nice job of kind of looking at these

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<v Speaker 2>different aspects. Starts with the universe having had a beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>and how controversial that was among scientists for the very

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<v Speaker 2>reasons that we're talking about. Scientists have their own predilections,

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<v Speaker 2>their own predispositions, their own biases. There are scientists featured

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<v Speaker 2>in this. Sir Fred Hoyle is one of them who

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<v Speaker 2>hated the idea that the universe had a beginning, and

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<v Speaker 2>he for his whole career he was pushing against this

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<v Speaker 2>and he just could not get his head around it.

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<v Speaker 2>But he also could not deny the evidence in the end.

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<v Speaker 2>So the universe has a beginning. And then there's a

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<v Speaker 2>section of the film that talks about the Goldilocks universe.

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<v Speaker 2>Not only did the universe start, which sounds like Genesis

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<v Speaker 2>chapter one, Chapter one, verse one, but it is a

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<v Speaker 2>universe that, in measurable, quantifiable ways, is spectacularly well designed

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<v Speaker 2>to support life. So that's the Goldilocks principle. Not too hot,

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<v Speaker 2>not too cold, not too firm, not too soft, everything

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<v Speaker 2>is just right. Then it goes into our position within

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<v Speaker 2>the universe. So Earth within the universe has everything just right.

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<v Speaker 2>We're in our own Goldilocks zone for life. And then

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<v Speaker 2>it starts on unpacking origin of life and design within life.

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<v Speaker 2>So it gives a full run from the origin of

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<v Speaker 2>the universe right through intelligent life and humanity, all of

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<v Speaker 2>this pointing to a personal creator. So if if you would.

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<v Speaker 1>Drill down for me, why does the beginning of the

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<v Speaker 1>universe really matter?

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<v Speaker 2>They quote some people in the film. One of them

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<v Speaker 2>is someone who said an eternal universe would relieve us

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<v Speaker 2>of the burden of having to explain the origin, because

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<v Speaker 2>prior to Big Bang cosmology was steady state universe cosmology.

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<v Speaker 2>People said, do you if you point a telescope up

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<v Speaker 2>into the sky, you're seeing what's been there forever. There

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<v Speaker 2>was no start. So do you see how in that

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<v Speaker 2>you know worldview? The universe is God? Okay, we know

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<v Speaker 2>God is eternal and has always been, is the uncreated

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<v Speaker 2>source of all things? People say, no, no, no, the

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<v Speaker 2>universe is eternal and it is the source of all

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<v Speaker 2>of all things. So it is idolatry. And yet you

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<v Speaker 2>could get away with it until astrophysics and cosmology showed no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>this is an expanding universe and that means it came

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<v Speaker 2>from a beginning, and there was a beginning. And in

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of tension mid twenty century tension that was

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<v Speaker 2>working itself out among astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists, they didn't most

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<v Speaker 2>of them did not at all like the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>the Big Bang. Fred Hoyle coined the term as a pejorative,

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<v Speaker 2>this big Bang theory. It's stuck and now everyone believes

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<v Speaker 2>in Big Bang theory. But the reason he didn't like

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<v Speaker 2>it is it sounds too much like Genesis one to one.

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<v Speaker 1>What I love in the film how they really point

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<v Speaker 1>out the word relieve. That's not a scientific term, that

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<v Speaker 1>this would relieve us. And it really if you really

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<v Speaker 1>drill down on that, it gets at the motivation and

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<v Speaker 1>I really won't want to know why in your perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>this is such a strong motivation for so many scientists

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<v Speaker 1>to relieve any concept of a God hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 2>It's this strain. I mean, we were talking about Darwin

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<v Speaker 2>and the mix of ideas that was coming out. They

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<v Speaker 2>have their antecedents, but they really were becoming ripe. In

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteenth century. You have the Freud Marx Darwin kind

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<v Speaker 2>of trifecta, a way of thinking that denies God and

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<v Speaker 2>tries to come up with something that replaces everything that

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<v Speaker 2>classically humans used to draw from a scriptural basis, a

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<v Speaker 2>scriptural underpinning, and so an understanding of the universe, an

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<v Speaker 2>understanding of life, and understanding of humanity, and understanding of

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<v Speaker 2>moral structure. And to this day you have. My favorite

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<v Speaker 2>atheist is Thomas Nagel. He's a philosopher of mind and

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<v Speaker 2>he realizes that materialism and Darwinism can't work because consciousness, cognition,

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<v Speaker 2>and moral sense, he says, are definitely real and they're

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<v Speaker 2>a real part of the universe. But he says, but

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want there to be a God, so help

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<v Speaker 2>me think of another way to understand this. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think that project people saw that Darwin's theory is

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<v Speaker 2>a cornerstone of the project of coming up with an

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<v Speaker 2>explanation of everything that avoids God, and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people for because we're all born in a state of

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<v Speaker 2>a fallen state. We're all born in a state of

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<v Speaker 2>rebellion against God until God doesn't work in us. And

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<v Speaker 2>when we're in that state, we feel very uncomfortable when

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<v Speaker 2>you see things that point to God, and so you

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<v Speaker 2>want you want an alternative. Dawkins does a great job

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<v Speaker 2>of describing as saying, you know, it seems very reasonable

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<v Speaker 2>to say that if there's a garden, there must be

419
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.920
<v Speaker 2>a gardener. But we've now come up with another explanation.

420
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.039
<v Speaker 2>He's wrong on that, but he does, in saying that,

421
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.799
<v Speaker 2>admit that he's got a problem as an atheist, and

422
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Arwinism is the solution. He thinks, well, and.

423
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.000
<v Speaker 1>I think the problem just keeps getting harder and harder

424
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:10.000
<v Speaker 1>to solve on their end. I mean, one of my

425
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 1>favorite parts of the entire film is it's Berlinsky, right that, yes,

426
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:20.599
<v Speaker 1>David Boonen talking about the multiverse, because he gives he

427
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.519
<v Speaker 1>treats it the way that I think it should be treated.

428
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.319
<v Speaker 1>Just just He's just this is utter ridiculousness. This is fantasy.

429
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:31.920
<v Speaker 1>This this belongs in the movies, like and I mean,

430
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.640
<v Speaker 1>do scientists really take the multiverse seriously? Because to me,

431
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.119
<v Speaker 1>it says, Okay, well, you've done a really good job

432
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.359
<v Speaker 1>pointing out the fine tuning and the goldilocks on and everything.

433
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Well we're just one of you know, any number how

434
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 1>many millions, billions, trillions of universes and we're just the

435
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.519
<v Speaker 1>lucky one. I mean, that feels like a really faith

436
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:51.480
<v Speaker 1>based claim to me.

437
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.759
<v Speaker 2>It also, I think you're alluding to this. It's it's

438
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.480
<v Speaker 2>it shows that there's a state of desperation when you

439
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.559
<v Speaker 2>go to simulation theory, and they talked about briefly simulation theory.

440
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 2>We're in a computer simulation or an infinite multiverse. These

441
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:17.240
<v Speaker 2>are obviously not things that you can demonstrate through scientific analysis.

442
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.880
<v Speaker 2>So there are obviously things that people ideas whacky ideas

443
00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:24.240
<v Speaker 2>that people bring to try to solve the problem, and

444
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.720
<v Speaker 2>the problem is we don't want there to be a god.

445
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.559
<v Speaker 2>So it does show the desperation I think people will

446
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>if people are desperate enough. I think multiverse cosmology is

447
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:37.519
<v Speaker 2>on the rise for that reason, for the same reason

448
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:43.599
<v Speaker 2>that people glombed onto Darwinism. They like the idea. And

449
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I think this is maybe mentioned in the film that

450
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.519
<v Speaker 2>some people have said, Look, this is the only way

451
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:54.119
<v Speaker 2>that we can get around design is multiverse. So get

452
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.160
<v Speaker 2>over get over your qualms about multiverse. This is the

453
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:01.519
<v Speaker 2>only game we have left to try to stave off design.

454
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.519
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, put your multiverse hat on for a minute.

455
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:09.279
<v Speaker 1>What's the best explanation that you could possibly give to

456
00:27:09.319 --> 00:27:12.119
<v Speaker 1>make me take it seriously? Because just like I said,

457
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 1>what you know, I never really had doubts about creation.

458
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.440
<v Speaker 1>It was intuitive. The multiverse seems the opposite. It seems

459
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.599
<v Speaker 1>intuitively ridiculous. And yes it's positive.

460
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:22.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you hear.

461
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.680
<v Speaker 1>These people who you want to or should take seriously,

462
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.599
<v Speaker 1>and they you know, we're definitely living in a simulation.

463
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:35.160
<v Speaker 1>The multiverse theory is true. Explain it to make it

464
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.680
<v Speaker 1>make sense to me, or you can you do that?

465
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Because I don't think it makes sense. I can't make

466
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.279
<v Speaker 2>those things make sense because I don't think they do.

467
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 2>But you can see that if someone is desperate to

468
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.400
<v Speaker 2>write God out of the picture and they realize nothing

469
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.759
<v Speaker 2>that's been tried before is working, then we're going to

470
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:55.400
<v Speaker 2>have to get creative. And I think that's how you

471
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.599
<v Speaker 2>end up with these creative things and you get smart.

472
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:02.200
<v Speaker 2>People like Elon Musk and Neil deGrasse Tyson have said

473
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:05.200
<v Speaker 2>they think we're living in a simulation. I don't know

474
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.400
<v Speaker 2>how you could actually believe that. I think maybe when

475
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.680
<v Speaker 2>they're you know, they have a drink or too them,

476
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:12.480
<v Speaker 2>they're kind of mulling things over, they would say that.

477
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.720
<v Speaker 2>But nobody can live their life as though they believe

478
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.640
<v Speaker 2>we're in a computer simulation. So I don't think there's

479
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.039
<v Speaker 2>self consistency there. And you can actually refute these things

480
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.799
<v Speaker 2>with careful thinking. You can refute the idea that you

481
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.720
<v Speaker 2>can't prove that there isn't a multiverse, but you can

482
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 2>prove that it doesn't explain what we see, and likewise

483
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.119
<v Speaker 2>the simulation theory, you can show that that's not consistent

484
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 2>with what we know to be true.

485
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, and you get that into materialism and free will.

486
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean they can't really coexist very well, right.

487
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 2>They can't. And so you get people who deny free will,

488
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.920
<v Speaker 2>or even people who deny consciousness because they're so committed

489
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.319
<v Speaker 2>to a material view of reality. And if they come

490
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 2>to the conclusion that Adams and molecules cannot become self aware,

491
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.319
<v Speaker 2>then they say, well, then there must not be self awareness.

492
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:09.519
<v Speaker 2>But that's so self defeating because you only came to

493
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.680
<v Speaker 2>your view through conscious action, and now you're denying your

494
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:17.160
<v Speaker 2>own consciousness. That seems like you're cutting you're sitting on

495
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.599
<v Speaker 2>the limb that you're sawing off. I mean, everything falls

496
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:24.079
<v Speaker 2>when you deny the process by which you got to

497
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>these ideas. So yeah, it's very it's very It lacks

498
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:29.759
<v Speaker 2>self consistency for sure.

499
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:35.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, your specialty is biology. Where did the first

500
00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:36.400
<v Speaker 1>cell come from?

501
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you say the first cell, you're already in

502
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.759
<v Speaker 2>the domain of sort of Darwinian evolutionary arguing, because to

503
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 2>a materialist, there has to be an origin of life

504
00:29:55.079 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Speaker 2>that looks like in a pond, you know, biotic soup,

505
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.759
<v Speaker 2>things coming together and the first self replicating cell. So

506
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the notion of the first cell is a materialist thing.

507
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.920
<v Speaker 2>If as theists and Christians we take scripture seriously. There

508
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.920
<v Speaker 2>isn't really a first cell. There's first organisms. Because God

509
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:20.519
<v Speaker 2>is God doesn't have to let molecules come together and

510
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>watch them and hope that something comes out of it.

511
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.519
<v Speaker 2>He bang, puts it, puts it there so he can

512
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.559
<v Speaker 2>create out of nothing. So he fills this planet in stages,

513
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:33.920
<v Speaker 2>as it's revealed in scripture. And I think the scientists

514
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:38.400
<v Speaker 2>who believe in evolution agree that in stages this Earth

515
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:42.079
<v Speaker 2>was populated by remarkable forms of life. But we don't

516
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.079
<v Speaker 2>have to talk about a first cell. Its entire populations

517
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:47.720
<v Speaker 2>that he brings into being and tells them to be

518
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.880
<v Speaker 2>fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And that's exactly

519
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:52.519
<v Speaker 2>what happened.

520
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:58.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what does Darwinian evolution explain. Well, well, there

521
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:00.000
<v Speaker 1>are a couple of things that are right about it.

522
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.359
<v Speaker 1>Darwin didn't know about DNA because that hadn't been discovered

523
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:06.799
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen fifteen nine. He didn't know about genetics or

524
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:11.759
<v Speaker 1>the genetic code. He framed his theory in terms of

525
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.759
<v Speaker 1>natural selection, which is the star of his show. He

526
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:20.359
<v Speaker 1>thinks natural selection explains everything, and there are modern evolutionists

527
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.000
<v Speaker 1>who still believe that Rich or they say they do

528
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 1>Richard Dawkins, but fewer and fewer. So most evolutionary biologists

529
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.720
<v Speaker 1>realize that natural selection cannot be the full explanation, and

530
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.440
<v Speaker 1>so they think there must be these auxiliary things. But

531
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Darwin's idea is that there's natural variation within populations. He

532
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't know how it was caused, and that natural selection

533
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:52.720
<v Speaker 1>sorts or favors the more fit organisms, those that have

534
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:57.359
<v Speaker 1>more offspring over the less fit, and so these variations

535
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.359
<v Speaker 1>get sorted generation after gen and you end up with

536
00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:06.519
<v Speaker 1>different properties. Now, so the true things are there are

537
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:11.079
<v Speaker 1>variants within populations, and this sort of sorting does happen.

538
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Natural selection is a real thing. But the false thing

539
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.359
<v Speaker 1>it's that it's a wild extrapolation.

540
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so although this is true, it doesn't explain how

541
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:25.599
<v Speaker 2>you get completely new versions of organism, new new designs

542
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>of life. It only explains relatively minor things, but some

543
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.400
<v Speaker 2>of them have huge importance for human health. Sickle cell

544
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.039
<v Speaker 2>anemia is a great example of something that arose and

545
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:42.160
<v Speaker 2>has become prevalent in parts of the globe because of

546
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:46.839
<v Speaker 2>a Darwinian mechanism. But it's not inventing something new, it's

547
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.279
<v Speaker 2>actually breaking something existing. The reason we have sickle cell

548
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.519
<v Speaker 2>anemia and a high prevalence in portions of the globe

549
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.839
<v Speaker 2>is that malaria is a killer in those portions of

550
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:02.279
<v Speaker 2>the globe, and sickle cell anemia provides protection against malaria.

551
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:05.079
<v Speaker 2>So that is an evolutionary thing that's happened and it's

552
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:09.680
<v Speaker 2>changed the human population. But it's not something that could

553
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 2>invent humans. So the big story is false, but there

554
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.000
<v Speaker 2>are little aspects of it that are true.

555
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:19.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when you talked about DNA and information and how

556
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:22.519
<v Speaker 1>you didn't have access to that, I mean, that's one

557
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 1>of your specialties. Why is information such a big deal?

558
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think, and information figures heavily in the film.

559
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:36.480
<v Speaker 2>Information in a computer age is something that we've come to.

560
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.279
<v Speaker 2>We've grappled with information. We use information, and even if

561
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.960
<v Speaker 2>people don't think about it abstractly or theoretically, you know

562
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:50.079
<v Speaker 2>that if your Wi Fi connection isn't working, you're not

563
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:53.519
<v Speaker 2>getting information to your phone or to your computer, and

564
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Speaker 2>you know what that means. It can't do what it

565
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.440
<v Speaker 2>needs to do because it doesn't have the it doesn't

566
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.680
<v Speaker 2>have the bits that are all allowing to do it.

567
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.160
<v Speaker 2>If you're streaming a video and you lose your connection,

568
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.519
<v Speaker 2>you won't get the rest of the video because information

569
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:11.519
<v Speaker 2>is not streaming anymore. So I think we if we

570
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.079
<v Speaker 2>go back to you know, two hundred and fifty years ago,

571
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.119
<v Speaker 2>people had a very different notion of it. We have

572
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:21.440
<v Speaker 2>a very sort of real world today. Understanding of information

573
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:26.199
<v Speaker 2>is basically my cell phone, you know how many bars

574
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:29.159
<v Speaker 2>I've got, and my WiFi connection is telling how well

575
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.519
<v Speaker 2>information can communicate with my device, and I can't do

576
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.480
<v Speaker 2>anything with my device without that information. That gives us

577
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.679
<v Speaker 2>a context for talking about cells and the complex things

578
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>that they do, and they likewise can't do those things

579
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:49.079
<v Speaker 2>without having correct information. And in the film it talks

580
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:53.199
<v Speaker 2>about DNA being an information carrier and it even says,

581
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, instead of ACG's and t's, you could represent

582
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.800
<v Speaker 2>that in terms of zeros and ones. It's very much

583
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>like what we use with computing. And in the cell,

584
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.239
<v Speaker 2>that information is telling the cell how to build proteins,

585
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:11.159
<v Speaker 2>how to put together incorrect sequence amino acids, to form

586
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:16.280
<v Speaker 2>chains that fold into structures that actually do the subcellular functions.

587
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:21.039
<v Speaker 2>So information has a very central role in life, and

588
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.119
<v Speaker 2>information has If we look at the history of the

589
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:29.039
<v Speaker 2>modern intelligent design thinking, information is at the center of that.

590
00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:31.920
<v Speaker 2>For the same reason, you can show that information is

591
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.119
<v Speaker 2>critical for life. You can show that information has to

592
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.679
<v Speaker 2>have an intelligent cause. That means life has to have

593
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:39.800
<v Speaker 2>an intelligent cause.

594
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:45.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and just once again going back to my d

595
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:50.400
<v Speaker 1>in high school biology, these things are not I don't

596
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.639
<v Speaker 1>come by them naturally, and it can be a little

597
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:54.480
<v Speaker 1>bit more difficult, especially if you're reading a book. And

598
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.719
<v Speaker 1>that's one of the real benefits of this film is

599
00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:00.360
<v Speaker 1>that it kind of paints a picture for some like

600
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:04.320
<v Speaker 1>me who kind of ah, I get it, and you

601
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:09.199
<v Speaker 1>see the beauty of it. And it's like, you know,

602
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.159
<v Speaker 1>if you and a bunch of your biology friends get

603
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.920
<v Speaker 1>together and see something, and I might look at it

604
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.199
<v Speaker 1>and go, oh, yeah, what's that You you don't understand that.

605
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.239
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's like a football player. Okay, I've been

606
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.880
<v Speaker 1>watching pro football my whole life. I can see a

607
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.599
<v Speaker 1>quarterback throw into a tight window on the sideline and

608
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:31.159
<v Speaker 1>I go, that's pretty good. But pretty good?

609
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Do you know how hard that is?

610
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:36.239
<v Speaker 1>Like somebody who actually played football, Like, no, that's not

611
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:40.760
<v Speaker 1>pretty good. That's almost impossible, like to get that. And

612
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.719
<v Speaker 1>I feel like the film does a really good job

613
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.760
<v Speaker 1>and you get scientists like yourself getting excited and say,

614
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 1>look at this. I mean, this discovery just unpack the universe.

615
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:53.199
<v Speaker 1>But then when you see it for yourself and you

616
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:56.360
<v Speaker 1>start it really gets unpacked. You go, yeah, ah, that

617
00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:02.320
<v Speaker 1>is beautiful, and you help take the complex and make

618
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.000
<v Speaker 1>it easily understood. I mean that's the beauty of films

619
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:05.320
<v Speaker 1>like this.

620
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think you're right. And there's something powerful as

621
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:15.360
<v Speaker 2>well about seeing actual historical figures who were died in

622
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:19.119
<v Speaker 2>the world atheists and they're deeply troubled by what their

623
00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.800
<v Speaker 2>own field showed them. And that's powerful.

624
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:27.639
<v Speaker 1>Troubled or convinced because that and that's that's what I mean.

625
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to say that we were better then,

626
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:32.960
<v Speaker 1>but I mean, you really there seemed to be such

627
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.840
<v Speaker 1>a strong principled involvement that a desire to follow truth

628
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.199
<v Speaker 1>where it led. Yeah, and if if the truth converts

629
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.920
<v Speaker 1>my preconceived notions, well then I have to change my

630
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.320
<v Speaker 1>preconceived notions to evolve with what I'm seeing right before

631
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.559
<v Speaker 1>my very eyes. I mean that that was the thing

632
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:55.039
<v Speaker 1>about the discovery of DNA that was really really well

633
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.400
<v Speaker 1>done and beautiful in the film, kind of like.

634
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.840
<v Speaker 2>A Saul conversion on the road to mask is a

635
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:06.960
<v Speaker 2>very powerful apologetic because you can say, oh, these people

636
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.559
<v Speaker 2>who love Jesus, they're just duped because they've loved Jesus.

637
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.760
<v Speaker 2>And even that doesn't work. But take someone who didn't

638
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 2>love Jesus is arguing against and is powerful and is

639
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:24.079
<v Speaker 2>having people rounded up and executed for loving Jesus, and

640
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:26.880
<v Speaker 2>he becomes a Jesus lover. That's something you have to

641
00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:29.800
<v Speaker 2>sit up and say, hang on, that is an interesting story.

642
00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.559
<v Speaker 2>There's got to be something behind that, and you see

643
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a version of that in this film with these people

644
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.679
<v Speaker 2>who were The last thing I want to be is

645
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:41.559
<v Speaker 2>a theist, and now I'm finding myself using the word theology.

646
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:46.239
<v Speaker 2>There has to be a theological explanation at scientific conferences,

647
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 2>an interesting thing that doesn't come out in the film.

648
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:52.360
<v Speaker 2>But I was sitting next to Steve Meyer watching a

649
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.199
<v Speaker 2>preview of this yesterday, and he was at that conference

650
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:04.960
<v Speaker 2>where Alan Sandage and Dean Kenyon both said I don't

651
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:08.239
<v Speaker 2>see any other way to interpret this other than a

652
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:12.239
<v Speaker 2>theological interpretation. He was there and that's really what lit

653
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the fire for Steve Meyer. So this film actually comes

654
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:19.679
<v Speaker 2>out of things that got started by things that are

655
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:23.199
<v Speaker 2>shown in the film as old clips from nineteen eighty five?

656
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.599
<v Speaker 1>Is that is that the part where they said is

657
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:29.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he said theologically said super natural, And

658
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 1>there was a.

659
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Dean Kenyon said, I don't think you have to

660
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>jump off the cliff something like this. I'm paraphrasing it

661
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:44.519
<v Speaker 2>to realize that life has to have a theological explanation. Yeah,

662
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:49.320
<v Speaker 2>supernatural was Alan Sandage, but those were both at that nineteen.

663
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Eighty five at the same conference, I think so, yeah, yeah,

664
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.960
<v Speaker 1>that would have been something in plain English. What a

665
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.159
<v Speaker 1>specified complexity.

666
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a good little graphic for this in the film

667
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:08.280
<v Speaker 2>to distinguish between mere complexity and specified complexity. So if

668
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.760
<v Speaker 2>you take a bunch of scrabble tiles they have letters

669
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:15.599
<v Speaker 2>on them, you throw them out on a table. However

670
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:22.079
<v Speaker 2>they land is improbable in retrospect. Obviously they have to

671
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.519
<v Speaker 2>land some way, But once you see how they landed,

672
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.679
<v Speaker 2>you could say, well, if I throw them again, it's

673
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.679
<v Speaker 2>very unlikely that they will land this way. Right, this

674
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.039
<v Speaker 2>is a one off because there's so many ways that

675
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:38.599
<v Speaker 2>they could land. So that's complexity. You have complexity whenever

676
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:42.800
<v Speaker 2>you have a system that could take a very very

677
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.239
<v Speaker 2>very large number of states, but at any given time

678
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.480
<v Speaker 2>it's in one state. So that is a complex system.

679
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.920
<v Speaker 2>But that's not specified complexity because if I throw scrabble

680
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.320
<v Speaker 2>tiles on the table and you walk in, you're not

681
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.599
<v Speaker 2>going to go, oh my gosh, how could they have landed?

682
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Like that? Thing significant about it? So specified complexity is

683
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:07.639
<v Speaker 2>when you do have that possibility of a vast number

684
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:12.480
<v Speaker 2>of states, but the state the thing is in is special.

685
00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:17.679
<v Speaker 2>So if I said, happy birthday, Dave with scrabble tiles,

686
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:20.960
<v Speaker 2>and it's your birthday, you know, not only is this

687
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:23.400
<v Speaker 2>complex because you've got a lot of tiles that do something,

688
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:28.440
<v Speaker 2>but it does something that's significant, Happy Birthday, Dave. And

689
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:31.920
<v Speaker 2>you know nobody just threw those there. Someone had to

690
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:36.400
<v Speaker 2>arrange it. So the implication of specified complexity always is

691
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>that someone who knew how to do this arrange the

692
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:41.320
<v Speaker 2>things in order for it.

693
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So I mean, why is it so hard for

694
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:47.079
<v Speaker 1>an unguided process to do that?

695
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Because you have the in the In the first case,

696
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:56.159
<v Speaker 2>if we say just throwing scrabble tiles onto the table,

697
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.960
<v Speaker 2>the probability of you collect taking a picture of them,

698
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:04.679
<v Speaker 2>collecting them all together, and throwing them again and getting

699
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:10.440
<v Speaker 2>the same arrangement is virtually zero. Okay, So chance cannot

700
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:16.320
<v Speaker 2>hit a probability a target that has a probability that's

701
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:19.480
<v Speaker 2>close to zero, because that's the whole thing in probability.

702
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.559
<v Speaker 2>It's close to zero, it's not going to happen. And likewise,

703
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the probability of the tiles by chance saying happy birthday,

704
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Dave is close to zero. But in this case, in life,

705
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:36.960
<v Speaker 2>we see sequence after sequence after sequence that have content

706
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.079
<v Speaker 2>and meaning, and the probability of that happening by chance

707
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:41.960
<v Speaker 2>is close to zero. So it's not at all like

708
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:46.800
<v Speaker 2>just walking in and finding something random. That's one of many,

709
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:50.199
<v Speaker 2>many possibilities. It's that there are many, many possibilities, and

710
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:53.599
<v Speaker 2>this is the working possibility. This is the special possibility

711
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.840
<v Speaker 2>that's been landed on. So that's why you can infer

712
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>design from specified complexity, but not just from complexity itself.

713
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:06.920
<v Speaker 1>But Doug, isn't the answer always time. With enough time,

714
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.519
<v Speaker 1>it would have eventually happened.

715
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:12.400
<v Speaker 2>And worst numbers are helpful because if a probability is

716
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 2>one in a million and you've got a million years,

717
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:18.639
<v Speaker 2>then yeah, you can solve that. But we're not talking

718
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>about one in a million. We're talking about one in

719
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:26.119
<v Speaker 2>ten to the you know, two hundred thousandth power, so

720
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:30.920
<v Speaker 2>very quickly, a billion years is nowhere near enough time

721
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:34.480
<v Speaker 2>for something like this to happen. And a planet and

722
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:38.000
<v Speaker 2>the size of Earth over billions of years is nowhere

723
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:42.159
<v Speaker 2>near enough opportunities for odds like that to have been overcome.

724
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, you and I agree on that, but that but

725
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.079
<v Speaker 1>there there is the pushback. That's the hey, with enough time,

726
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:50.159
<v Speaker 1>this is what happens.

727
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.320
<v Speaker 2>If someone wants to argue that, then you say, well,

728
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:56.400
<v Speaker 2>let's get out our pencils and our calculators and say

729
00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:59.119
<v Speaker 2>what enough time would be, And you very quickly find

730
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.079
<v Speaker 2>that the age of the universe there're, you know, an

731
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.440
<v Speaker 2>old universe at thirteen point eight billion years is not

732
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:07.840
<v Speaker 2>nearly enough time for these things to have happened. So

733
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:10.280
<v Speaker 2>you could say, I agree with you in a way,

734
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:15.360
<v Speaker 2>but even you acknowledge that things that we see cannot

735
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:19.079
<v Speaker 2>have happened even in billions of years. There's another way

736
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:21.960
<v Speaker 2>to go, though, and I teach a course called the

737
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.079
<v Speaker 2>Design of Life at Biola. Another way to go with

738
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:30.400
<v Speaker 2>that is to demonstrate that a human being cannot be

739
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:34.119
<v Speaker 2>just a physical thing. We have physical bodies, but we

740
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:38.079
<v Speaker 2>have to have an immaterial mind, soul, spirit, our mind

741
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.599
<v Speaker 2>that's doing our thinking cannot be physical. Thought can't be

742
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:45.599
<v Speaker 2>a physical process. And once you show that, then you

743
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:48.320
<v Speaker 2>can say, even with an infinite amount of time or

744
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:53.159
<v Speaker 2>an infinite number of universes in an infinite multiverse, if

745
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.480
<v Speaker 2>that's physical, it can't produce something that's non physical. And

746
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.280
<v Speaker 2>a key component of a human being is non physical.

747
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:04.559
<v Speaker 2>So that's it's it's a category error to think that

748
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.559
<v Speaker 2>a physical universe can come up with a human because

749
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:09.199
<v Speaker 2>a human isn't merely a physical thing.

750
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Hmm, the hard problem of consciousness exactly. I mean, do

751
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:15.639
<v Speaker 1>you want to get into that at all? I mean

752
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.199
<v Speaker 1>you could bring take it down to the bottom shelf

753
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:18.559
<v Speaker 1>for me.

754
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:27.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, in very simple terms. You can show that well

755
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the way I would think about it. And this is

756
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:30.079
<v Speaker 2>also relevant to AI. I have been spending a lot

757
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:31.960
<v Speaker 2>of time talking about AI too, because that's a big

758
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.199
<v Speaker 2>subject and they actually connect. So bringing this down to

759
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:42.719
<v Speaker 2>the bottom shelf, what is uh? What is thought? What

760
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:48.719
<v Speaker 2>is thinking if it is not dealing with thoughts? I say,

761
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 2>there is no conception of thinking other than working with thoughts.

762
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:56.360
<v Speaker 2>And what is a thought is a thought made out

763
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.760
<v Speaker 2>of carbon and nitrogen and phosphorus and oxygen. Or is

764
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.440
<v Speaker 2>it though something that exists in a different realm. It's

765
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:06.719
<v Speaker 2>a concept, it's an idea. There is no coherent way

766
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:13.360
<v Speaker 2>to say that. Ideas basically are physical things. They're basically

767
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.599
<v Speaker 2>made out of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen. That's it doesn't work.

768
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:21.280
<v Speaker 2>If you try that, it becomes absolutely incoherent. So if

769
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.599
<v Speaker 2>we accept the ideas and thoughts, they live in a

770
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.280
<v Speaker 2>different realm. They are non physical things, concepts. The number two.

771
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.360
<v Speaker 2>There is no physical thing that is the number two.

772
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:34.320
<v Speaker 2>You can get too. Here are my two fists. They're physical,

773
00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:37.400
<v Speaker 2>but that isn't the number two. I'm applying the number

774
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.639
<v Speaker 2>two to the two fists. Right, here's two fingers that

775
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.840
<v Speaker 2>are physical. But I shouldn't do that one in Britain

776
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:46.639
<v Speaker 2>by it, I do it like this. Here are two

777
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:50.119
<v Speaker 2>things that are physical, but that isn't the number two.

778
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm applying the number two to it. Two is a

779
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:56.000
<v Speaker 2>concept that lives in a different realm. So once you've

780
00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.599
<v Speaker 2>convinced someone of that, and that's you can do that,

781
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:03.119
<v Speaker 2>then you say, okay, when we're thinking, are we dealing

782
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:07.400
<v Speaker 2>with concepts? And you destroy thought if you say no,

783
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.480
<v Speaker 2>we're not. We are. We are working with concepts, and

784
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:16.719
<v Speaker 2>concepts are non physical. Okay, So a physical thing cannot manipulate,

785
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.960
<v Speaker 2>access touch non physical concepts, and that means our mind

786
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:25.320
<v Speaker 2>if it is to If our mind is to be

787
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.239
<v Speaker 2>working with non physical concepts, then our mind cannot be

788
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:32.039
<v Speaker 2>a physical thing. It can't be a machine. And the

789
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:35.480
<v Speaker 2>idea that your brain, these neurons that are you know,

790
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.639
<v Speaker 2>connected in marvelously complex ways in your brain, are thinking

791
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.719
<v Speaker 2>is a claim that a physical thing is manipulating non

792
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:49.440
<v Speaker 2>physical things ideas, and that's just incoherent. The only coherent

793
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:53.360
<v Speaker 2>understanding of what we're doing is yes, you have a brain,

794
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.719
<v Speaker 2>and your mind is knit in a beautiful way to

795
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:58.599
<v Speaker 2>your body, and the brain is part of it. And

796
00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that's why if something happens to your brain, or drugs

797
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.840
<v Speaker 2>or alcohol, there are physical things that affect your brain

798
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.519
<v Speaker 2>and they do affect your ability to think. But that's

799
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:12.559
<v Speaker 2>because the immaterial part of you is knit to your

800
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:16.280
<v Speaker 2>physical body, and your brain is the key interface between

801
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 2>the two. But once we realize that whatever is doing

802
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:22.760
<v Speaker 2>our thinking has to be working with concepts, that rules

803
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:26.079
<v Speaker 2>out the brain because the brain is it has it

804
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:30.119
<v Speaker 2>can't touch concepts. It's a physical thing made out of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen,

805
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:33.719
<v Speaker 2>and all these things on the periodic table, and that

806
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:41.000
<v Speaker 2>means that no physical process operating on purely physical stuff

807
00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:47.960
<v Speaker 2>can have produced us because we have this key component mind, soul,

808
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:51.760
<v Speaker 2>spirit that's not physical. And so all of this fits

809
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:56.000
<v Speaker 2>beautifully with the idea that God breathed He formed the

810
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.199
<v Speaker 2>man out of the dust and breathed his spirit into him,

811
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:00.880
<v Speaker 2>so that I think that's a reference to them. There's

812
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:06.320
<v Speaker 2>a non physical part. The dust of the ground is physical,

813
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.880
<v Speaker 2>but when God breathes the breath of life into him,

814
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:16.280
<v Speaker 2>into Adam, that's poetic reference to Okay, there's a non

815
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.719
<v Speaker 2>physical thing that's part of who you are, Adam, and

816
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:21.840
<v Speaker 2>will always be part of who you are, and it's

817
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:24.679
<v Speaker 2>part of being made in the image of God. So

818
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:26.480
<v Speaker 2>all of this makes total sense if you have that

819
00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:30.280
<v Speaker 2>view of humanity. If you try to reduce humans to molecules,

820
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:35.119
<v Speaker 2>it all falls to pieces. It doesn't work. Yeah.

821
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:39.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean there was the Stephen Hawking aspect of

822
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the film where he talked about that the first beginning

823
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:45.880
<v Speaker 1>was theoretical math or something like that.

824
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's done. Is an interesting and good aspect in film,

825
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:55.480
<v Speaker 2>there's the Hawking quote because there is gravity, because there

826
00:49:55.599 --> 00:50:01.920
<v Speaker 2>is a law like gravity, the universe can and will

827
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:05.320
<v Speaker 2>create itself out of nothing, and John Lennox does a

828
00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:09.679
<v Speaker 2>good job of scratching his heads that's gravity isn't nothing.

829
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 2>But basically what Hawking is another one of these scientists

830
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:19.320
<v Speaker 2>who his own work made him uncomfortable because he's wanted

831
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:24.280
<v Speaker 2>to deny a theistic understanding of reality, and yet he

832
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.559
<v Speaker 2>realized there's a singularity at the beginning of our universe,

833
00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.119
<v Speaker 2>and the only thing that he could do is come

834
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:35.960
<v Speaker 2>up with quantum cosmology. But it ends up being like

835
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:43.239
<v Speaker 2>this mathematical structure that connects somehow to a beginning of

836
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.920
<v Speaker 2>a physical universe. And he himself said, there's the problem

837
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:49.239
<v Speaker 2>of understanding how the math could get a universe for

838
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:52.719
<v Speaker 2>it to apply to, because math can't produce a universe.

839
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Steve did a good job in the film of saying, really,

840
00:50:56.119 --> 00:50:59.599
<v Speaker 2>what we're saying is the universe came out of ideas.

841
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.639
<v Speaker 2>The universe came out of mind because minds are Mathematicians

842
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.239
<v Speaker 2>always have a mind, and they're dealing with math in

843
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:12.119
<v Speaker 2>their mind, and that means that points to a god,

844
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and God in his mind conceives of the universe, which

845
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:20.239
<v Speaker 2>is true. And did God have math in mind as

846
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:22.960
<v Speaker 2>part of how the triune God is saying let there

847
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:26.400
<v Speaker 2>be light? Does he have math in mind when he's

848
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:28.880
<v Speaker 2>doing that? Yes, And that's why physics has such a

849
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.760
<v Speaker 2>beautiful mathematical structure to it is it comes from the

850
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:33.400
<v Speaker 2>mind of God.

851
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, you've used the word several times now, and I

852
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:41.519
<v Speaker 1>it's how the film ends. And I think it's beautiful

853
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:44.480
<v Speaker 1>and you talk about the beauty principle that it's so

854
00:51:44.679 --> 00:51:46.360
<v Speaker 1>beautiful it must be right.

855
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:50.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a great principle that's brought out in the film.

856
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:51.719
<v Speaker 2>It actually starts with I don't know if you know.

857
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:56.320
<v Speaker 2>That's my voice that introduces I was wondering. Yeah, there's

858
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:59.719
<v Speaker 2>several parts where it's my voice kind of talking about

859
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:03.599
<v Speaker 2>what's man I do. It's my voice introducing this beauty

860
00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:06.960
<v Speaker 2>principle because it's something that struck me very, very profoundly. That,

861
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 2>apart from all the other ways to show that Darwin's

862
00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:14.400
<v Speaker 2>theory doesn't work, just look at what's around you. Is

863
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:21.320
<v Speaker 2>it like brute survival machines, ruthless survival machines? You know,

864
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:26.159
<v Speaker 2>everything is ugly, Everything is like you know, brutalist architecture.

865
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:28.719
<v Speaker 2>It gets the job done. It ain't pretty, but all

866
00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:30.679
<v Speaker 2>it has to do is beat out the things that

867
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:37.440
<v Speaker 2>it's competing against. Or do you see this extraordinary profusion

868
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:40.880
<v Speaker 2>of elegance and beauty around you? And it's the latter,

869
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:45.920
<v Speaker 2>And that can only be explained by a personal creator

870
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:51.639
<v Speaker 2>God who in his mind is not thinking this is

871
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:54.599
<v Speaker 2>going to be about natural selection. He's thinking this is

872
00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:56.400
<v Speaker 2>gonna be about something else. This is gonna be about

873
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.920
<v Speaker 2>my glory. And that's what you see and you can't

874
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.960
<v Speaker 2>deny it. I mean, there's look around you. As I

875
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.719
<v Speaker 2>said at the gathering last night, there are six thousand

876
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:11.000
<v Speaker 2>species of ladybug. Six thousand species of ladybug with different

877
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:15.239
<v Speaker 2>spot patterns and colors. That's somebody having fun and saying, boom,

878
00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:19.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna make this be beautiful, interful, and that's.

879
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:22.119
<v Speaker 1>The path to truth leads through beauty.

880
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Open the window.

881
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:27.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean that the phrase that really, I mean, it's

882
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:32.679
<v Speaker 1>just beautiful, gratuitous beauty. It's like God grabbing us by

883
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:35.119
<v Speaker 1>the neck and getting our attention, like look at look

884
00:53:35.159 --> 00:53:38.440
<v Speaker 1>at that. There's no like you said, there's no survival

885
00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:42.559
<v Speaker 1>based need for that degree of beauty Yep, for sure.

886
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:44.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean.

887
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:48.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just like I said, it's one of the things

888
00:53:48.440 --> 00:53:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that a film about science that really ends with the

889
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:55.679
<v Speaker 1>crescendo of beauty, beauty, beauty.

890
00:53:56.199 --> 00:53:59.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love that part of it. In the end,

891
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the very in the film, you have these beautiful animations,

892
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:06.760
<v Speaker 2>these sort of ethereal animations that things come together and

893
00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:10.559
<v Speaker 2>you see these life forms. It's it's done really really well.

894
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:13.760
<v Speaker 1>It's incredible. It's it's it's for people like me. I mean,

895
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:16.519
<v Speaker 1>I I kept thinking that, like, because I.

896
00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:19.599
<v Speaker 2>Hope it's for for for all kinds of people. So

897
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:25.039
<v Speaker 2>I think, I hope there are agnostics and people who

898
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:27.440
<v Speaker 2>are well trained in the sciences who see the film,

899
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and I hope it does I hope the Lord uses

900
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:34.519
<v Speaker 2>it to touch people in ways that they need to

901
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:35.039
<v Speaker 2>be touched.

902
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:39.159
<v Speaker 1>I think you will. Like I said, it's just it's

903
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:44.960
<v Speaker 1>so expertly done, first class in every way. Doug, there's

904
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:46.480
<v Speaker 1>a couple of things I want to talk to you

905
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:48.360
<v Speaker 1>about that are a little bit of a wild card.

906
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:52.559
<v Speaker 1>All right, So you talked about AI. Another thing that's

907
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:57.320
<v Speaker 1>really popular in the the cultural zeitgeist right now is aliens.

908
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Could you unpack that for me? Because I was listening

909
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:05.800
<v Speaker 1>to a podcast not that long ago, and the guest

910
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:09.639
<v Speaker 1>said something interesting. It wasn't a religious podcast, and so

911
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:14.840
<v Speaker 1>that most people assume that if aliens were discovered or

912
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:18.119
<v Speaker 1>some sort of alien life form, that it would undermine

913
00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:22.440
<v Speaker 1>religion or Christianity, and this guy, who was not a

914
00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Christian said, I actually think it would strengthen their point.

915
00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:30.679
<v Speaker 1>What do you say about them?

916
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.840
<v Speaker 2>It depends on whether we're talking about what we mean

917
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:35.400
<v Speaker 2>by alien.

918
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.039
<v Speaker 1>Uh, if we mean life, life somewhere else in the universe.

919
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we're not saying intelligent life.

920
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.199
<v Speaker 1>Just let's let's do both play, let's play with both.

921
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:49.199
<v Speaker 2>I think it would not be I think it would

922
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:54.519
<v Speaker 2>not be a contrary to scripture. If, for example, some

923
00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>spores of something that are very much like in earth

924
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:02.239
<v Speaker 2>like life were found on Mars and they've been, you know,

925
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:06.239
<v Speaker 2>dormant because there's no water. But it looks as though

926
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:10.039
<v Speaker 2>there was some sort of mold and bacterial life that

927
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:14.039
<v Speaker 2>did exist on Mars and it's sitting there and there's

928
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.440
<v Speaker 2>there's no way for it to live without water. I

929
00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:21.760
<v Speaker 2>don't think that would be I don't think that that

930
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:26.239
<v Speaker 2>would upset anything that we should draw from scripture. I

931
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:31.280
<v Speaker 2>do think if we if we found there to be

932
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.519
<v Speaker 2>intelligent life, say, and that wouldn't be on Mars, but

933
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:38.480
<v Speaker 2>say another solar system turns out is beaming stuff to

934
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:41.960
<v Speaker 2>us as an intelligent life. And here's why I think

935
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:50.159
<v Speaker 2>that is problematic, because if there's intelligent life elsewhere, that's

936
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.159
<v Speaker 2>the sort of life that would be made in God's image,

937
00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Because I think part of the imago day is our

938
00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.639
<v Speaker 2>ability to think about things. So would there be life

939
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:04.239
<v Speaker 2>elsewhere that has the imago day. If it does have

940
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:06.840
<v Speaker 2>the imago day, it seems like it's going to need

941
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:10.000
<v Speaker 2>a savior because the thing, because what played out for

942
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:13.159
<v Speaker 2>us is the image of God is a good thing,

943
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:18.159
<v Speaker 2>but without God's perfections, it leads to a fall, and

944
00:57:18.199 --> 00:57:24.639
<v Speaker 2>that means that were cooked. Unless God sends his son

945
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:28.000
<v Speaker 2>to become one of us and to save us. And

946
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:32.880
<v Speaker 2>the language around that event, around the second person of

947
00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the God had becoming human, dying once for all, that

948
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:42.119
<v Speaker 2>is universal language. I think it is contrary to Scripture

949
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:46.880
<v Speaker 2>to think that Jesus went and died multiple times, or

950
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:52.519
<v Speaker 2>that his death on Earth having been a human somehow

951
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:56.679
<v Speaker 2>provides atonement for those other people out there in another

952
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.920
<v Speaker 2>galaxy because that would be very, very strange. The whole

953
00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:03.800
<v Speaker 2>thing is it becomes personal when the creator of this

954
00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:09.159
<v Speaker 2>vast universe steps onto this little planet and becomes one

955
00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:11.079
<v Speaker 2>of us and walks among us and becomes part of

956
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:16.119
<v Speaker 2>our history. And that wouldn't work if scripture said, you know,

957
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:20.880
<v Speaker 2>to us on Earth, trust us, this guy who was

958
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:25.599
<v Speaker 2>born and named Jesus in another galaxy lived a perfect

959
00:58:25.639 --> 00:58:29.079
<v Speaker 2>life and died on a cross. Trust us. It didn't

960
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:31.119
<v Speaker 2>happen on Earth, and so there's not gonna be any

961
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:34.199
<v Speaker 2>historical record here. But trust me in another galaxy, that's happened.

962
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:37.360
<v Speaker 2>That's that. I just can't see that that working, So

963
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I think that's problematic. I also think that part of

964
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.360
<v Speaker 2>the reason that people believe there must be life elsewhere

965
00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:50.960
<v Speaker 2>is the materialist philosophy. They think that natural causes. It's

966
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:54.679
<v Speaker 2>embarrassing to an atheist to think, in a universe this

967
00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:59.599
<v Speaker 2>vast life is only here because that looks special. It's

968
00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:03.800
<v Speaker 2>again like the Big Bang was an embarrassment to the atheists,

969
00:59:03.800 --> 00:59:07.000
<v Speaker 2>because that means there was a beginning. It's also embarrassing

970
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:08.719
<v Speaker 2>if you're an atheist to think that in all this

971
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:12.639
<v Speaker 2>vast universe there's only one place where life is, and

972
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:16.480
<v Speaker 2>it's here, and that's why they think, well, there must

973
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:20.199
<v Speaker 2>be life. If physics can produce life, it must have

974
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:22.159
<v Speaker 2>produced it lots and lots of time, so there must

975
00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:24.480
<v Speaker 2>be life elsewhere. That's why we have the search for

976
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>extraterrestrial intelligence. It's never come up with anything. I don't

977
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.519
<v Speaker 2>think it ever will. I think this is the one

978
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:34.280
<v Speaker 2>place where God made it all happen on planet Earth.

979
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Having said that, if there were spores and some something

980
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:41.760
<v Speaker 2>that's far short of, you know, microbial life somewhere else,

981
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:45.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that would upset anything. But my guess

982
00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:49.119
<v Speaker 2>is that requires special action, and it looks as though

983
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:52.760
<v Speaker 2>God's special action with respect to life is here and

984
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:53.320
<v Speaker 2>here alone.

985
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, Doug X the Story of Everything. One more

986
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:02.679
<v Speaker 1>pitch for it and where can people see it?

987
01:00:03.719 --> 01:00:07.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great film. It covers a wide

988
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:11.840
<v Speaker 2>range of arguments that are apologetic for the existence of God,

989
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.920
<v Speaker 2>but not just God, a personal God who has made

990
01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:19.920
<v Speaker 2>himself known to us and made his love of beauty

991
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:21.920
<v Speaker 2>known to us. Because the beauty argument, as we said,

992
01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:26.239
<v Speaker 2>is part of this coming out in theaters Thursday, April thirtieth.

993
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:29.760
<v Speaker 2>There are a number of people who are booking entire

994
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:32.880
<v Speaker 2>theaters for church groups to go, but I'd love to

995
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 2>see people bringing non believing friends, agnostics, atheists, or seekers.

996
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:41.719
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great film for those types of people.

997
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 2>The more people go in the first Apparently the first

998
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:48.280
<v Speaker 2>four days are critical for a film to get it

999
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:50.920
<v Speaker 2>second week. So if we want this to stay in theaters,

1000
01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:53.320
<v Speaker 2>the more people who go and see it in those

1001
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:56.360
<v Speaker 2>first four days it helps for it to have some

1002
01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:58.519
<v Speaker 2>longevity in the theaters, which I think would be a

1003
01:00:58.559 --> 01:00:59.039
<v Speaker 2>great thing.

1004
01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:03.639
<v Speaker 1>Amen. No, I watched it twice and I would gladly

1005
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.800
<v Speaker 1>watch the third time in theaters. Doug X, thank you

1006
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.280
<v Speaker 1>for joining me on a commitment to reality. I really

1007
01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 1>appreciate you and your work.

1008
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me. It's been a good conversation.

1009
01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for joining me on a commitment to reality.

1010
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.199
<v Speaker 1>I never do this, but I really want to let

1011
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:23.440
<v Speaker 1>you know that if you're enjoying the podcast, please rate, review,

1012
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:26.239
<v Speaker 1>and subscribe. It helps a lot, and we are still

1013
01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:28.480
<v Speaker 1>in our infancies. This helps get the word out and

1014
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:31.679
<v Speaker 1>keeps the conversation going until next time. On a commitment

1015
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:33.039
<v Speaker 1>to reality,