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Speaker 1: Good afternoon. You're listening to Gambling with an Edge. Now

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Here are your hosts, Bob Dancer and Richard Munchkin. Good afternoon,

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Welcome to Gambling with an Edge. I'm Bob Dancer and

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I'm Richard Munchkin. Today we're having one of our irregularly

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scheduled podcasts with the guests who has graced our airwaves before.

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We're going to be talking to writer Michael Kaplan discussing

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his new book, Advantage Players. Michael Kaplan, Welcome to Gambling

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with an Edge.

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Speaker 2: Hi, guys, it's super great to be here. Now.

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Speaker 1: You've written about a myriad of subjects. A large part

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of your career has been writing about gamblers and gambling subjects.

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How did you get started in that field?

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Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting. What happened was I mean, I

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grew up you know in New Jersey, Jewish kid hung

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around people. There definitely was a lot of gambling around me,

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like you know, low stakes gambling, like you know, we

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play nicol and die poker after school at this kid's house.

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His last name was gold Figures, Like that's the guy

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who was hosting the game. And I learned very quickly

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that the guy who hosts the game usually wins, and

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he would have like a fake Monopoly board setup in

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case his mother came in and he would like drag

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it across the table. My mom would just playing Monopoly.

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So I kind of grew up around gambling, like you know,

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selling football tickets and stuff like that, and I always

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just you know, was drawn to that world and I

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did a few gambling stories over the years. When I

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did a story about that poker player Austin Squatty for GQ,

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I was like probably the last person to interview Stu

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Hunger before he died for this magazine. Icon was a big, long,

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involved story which was amazing, one of my favorite series

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that I've ever written. Actually. Then I did a story

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about the Binions when the murder happened, when Teddy Binyon

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got murdered. And soon after that I got a call

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from Cigar and Ficionado, for whom I was writing some

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sort of celebrity stories, some stories about Cigars, and they said, oh,

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would you want to do our gambling column because their

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old gambling columnist left. And I was like, Yeah, that's

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that's great. I never thought that that would even be

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an option, and I did it and I learned an

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awful lot. I mean to tell you how much I learned.

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The very first story I did was about beating, was

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about beating blackjack, baccarat, and roulette. And I met with

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somebody that we all knew who had a roulette system,

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which is a losing system, trust me. And I didn't

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know that, and I wrote about it being a way

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to win. It was, you know, it was not what

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I would call my finest hour, but that was the start.

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And then I became friendly with Max, and I got

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invited to a blackjack ball when I was I don't know,

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this probably would have been when it was still at

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his house, in the basement of his house, and wow,

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I went this old house. Yeah, I went there knowing

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nothing about this world at all. And Richard actually did

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a cutting, a cutting demonstration, and he was like able

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to cut like to the fifth card, to the sixth card,

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to whatever Cardbody's like ooh ah. And I knew so

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little about this role. I'm like, okay, fine, that's like

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an interesting parlor trick. How could that possibly help you

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win money? Which I know that's no what now, I

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know that's not the case. And I lost. You know,

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when you do the when you would have the quiz.

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I finished worst the next two for the first two

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years in a row, and I got the Jackass Trophy.

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And I heard somebody say, this guy behind, you know,

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behind my back, obviously whispering to somebody else. He goes,

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this guy's supposed to be some big gambling writer. The fuck.

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And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I try,

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and you know I but I learned. I mean I

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met a lot of people. In fact, one of the

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first or second Black Check, while I went to I

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met James Groschen and he handed me a copy, you know,

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the old original copy of Beyond Counting, and I took it.

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I was like, oh, what's this? You know, of course

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it made noes. I took it home to look at it.

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I couldn't make heads and her tails out of it.

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I mean, still a little bit of a challenge. But

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I started meeting people in that world and like learning

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about the world of advantage play, and it became really

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fascinating to me.

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Speaker 3: How did you it? I mean we often ran into

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the problem of turning up more guests. How do you

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How did you find it getting people to talk to

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you for your articles?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's funny, like I think maybe by

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going to the Blackjack Ball it gave me a certain credibility.

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Max has always been like an amazing ambassador for me.

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I mean, I wanted to do a story on Rob

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Wrights it and I met him at a blackjack ball

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when you know, I think it was the year that

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he that he got player, that he got Player of

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the Year, and I went up to him and talked

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to him, and you know, he kind of sort of

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blew me off a little bit, you know, and I

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think you said to Max, you know, what's with this

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guy Kaplan? And I think Max said some nice things

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about me and then writes and called me, said hey,

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I'm going to be in New York. You want to

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grab some pizza? And we went to I'm a gluten

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free pizza place because he's gluten free, and we became

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we became pals, and I mean, i've we're like legitimate friends.

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And I wrote about him, and I don't know, I

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think being at the Blackjack Ball helped. Knowing some people helped,

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I don't know, learning a card count playing on a

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card counting team that probably helped. That gave me some

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credibility even though, you know, James Grosheen said, you know,

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people think you know of card counters as you know,

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monkeys swinging through the trees, you know, on the evolutionary

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scale of APIs because they're actually salamanders just crawling out

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of the water. I was like, okay, fine, yeah, that

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is one of his notorious quotes. But you know, I

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think I think like, little by little, I became, you know,

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part of this world. I was able to call somebody

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and say, hey, I want to do a story about you.

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You know, would you talk to me? And I think

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it kind of evolved like that. I mean, you know,

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I try to be trustworthy and I'm like, I honor

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what I say I'll do, and I think people like that.

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I actually understand how it works that I'm not just

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like some person is saying, oh, so you're cheating, right,

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because that's what people think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, often so.

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Speaker 1: An advantaged player AP Now it's largely a gambling term,

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although in this book you extend the term to a

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number of non gambling situations. How would you define advantage player?

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Speaker 2: I would say an advantage player is somebody who figures

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out how to do things that other people can't or

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won't figure out how to do, and that they're going

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up against a place or a system, or a world

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or an industry that is difficult to overcome, and they're

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basically beating the odds, like you know, through hustle, through

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not through luck. As somebody said somewhere and somebody else

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said when I was writing the book, they out house

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the house. So I think, like and I think it

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extends beyond gambling. I mean, that's sort of the premise

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of the book. And I know that to people who

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are like, you know, you know, serious advantage players in

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the gambling world, they might they might take umbras with that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I mean this is a theme that

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I like that I've often thought about that there are

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people in life who are advantage players that have nothing

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to do with gambling. I was telling you before we

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started that there's a guy who would have been a

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perfect fit for your book. And you might want to

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find this guy and interview him sometime. But he's the

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pudding guy and he thinks exactly like an advantage player.

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Because what happened was, I believe it was Craft was

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doing this promotion with the airlines where for every item

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you bought you would get airline miles. This guy, he

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valued airline miles at like two cents apiece, and he

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liked this particular soup, and he realized that buying this soup,

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you know, it was costing him much less because of

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the airline miles he was getting. So he started going

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through the grocery store and he found these six packs

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of pudding that were you basically got the miles for

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every one of the six and so it was actually

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positive ev to buy the pudding. So this guy bought

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out the entire store and went around to other stores

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buying all the pudding he could. And then, like a

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true advantage player, he realized, oh man, cutting out all

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these UPC quodes is going to be a big, a

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big problem. So he went to the Salvation Army and said,

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I'll donate all this pudding to you if you get

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your people to cut out the aps UPC codes for me. So, uh,

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you know, he ended up with lifetime free flying I

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think on American airlines and gold status I'm United. And

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then to take it even one step further, because he

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donated the pudding to the Salvation Army, he got to

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write it off on his taxes as a charitable donation.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was about to I was about to say,

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I bet he was able to write it off. That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they they kind of took this idea. There's

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an Adam Sandler movie, which the name of it I

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forget now, I think now I can't remember it. But

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he he is the pudding guy in the movie. Although

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it's got nothing. The rest of the movie's got nothing

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to do.

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Speaker 2: It's awesome. I wish I knew about that. I would

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have put him in the book. He would have been perfect.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the one of the common definition to ap

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includes the caveat without cheating or without breaking the law.

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Speaker 2: Is that.

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Speaker 1: Now many of your examples in the book certainly didn't

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follow that, But do you consider that a key part

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of being an AP or just not.

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Speaker 2: I think it's on the fringes of advantage play. And

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I think here we have said that somewhere in the book.

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I hope we did, because I agree with that. I

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think it's definitely on the fringes of the advantage play world.

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I mean, I don't know. I think Dustin Marx seemed,

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you know, I guess like I felt like even though

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they were cheating and breaking the law, they weren't doing

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it in like kind of an innovative way. It wasn't

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just like you know, brute force walking and robbing a

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bank and putting a gun to somebody's head. There was

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some finesse to what the AP's quote unquote aps who

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did break the law did in the book. So I guess,

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I guess it is an expansion of AP I will

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agree with that, but I felt like it's sort of

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I don't know, it was on the edge of it.

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Speaker 3: So the original definition, there was a book called The

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Advantage Player. I think it was called The Advantage Player,

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and it's from like the late eighteen hundreds, I think,

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oh wow, and that book they were talking about people

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who cheated. They were talking about people who got who

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would do anything to gain an advantage at a game.

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But the more modern definition has really become do it legally,

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you know?

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Speaker 2: So I mean, I do say I mean so maybe

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the book is somewhat contradictory in a way because in

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the introduction when I describe it, I do say, you know,

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advantage players do it without cheating, and I say something

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along the lines of, you know, cheaters go to jail

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advantage players, you know, go to the cage and cash

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out their chips. Right, So there is I do make

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that delineation, And yeah, I guess that last section of

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the book does kind of tredict that, But I don't know.

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Maybe I couldn't resist the juiciness of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they were interesting stories.

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Speaker 2: You know. They may not have been advantage players in

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the truest truest sense of the word, but I hope

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the epilogue redeemed me.

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Speaker 1: So now you've attended several Black Tech Balls. At every

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one of them, there were several dozen players who could

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accurately be called a piece, each of whom are getting

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the money from the casinos in a slightly different way.

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Of all those players, you only have time and space

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to interview a few. How do you pick and choose

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which ones you believe will have the most compelling stories?

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Speaker 2: I mean, to a degree, it's the ones that I

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know about and the ones who will talk to me.

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I mean, there is a degree of that. Not everybody

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is game to talk to me, and I do think

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like it's by snooping around and finding who are the

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interesting sturgeon. There's one person who's incredibly interesting who I

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would love to interview, and I don't know if that's

238
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ever going to happen. And I've talked to her about

239
00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:04,840
it and she was kind of into it, and then

240
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,519
I don't know. It seems now it might not happen

241
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,679
for reasons that I'm not sure of. But they have

242
00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:12,919
to be game to do it. Number one and number two,

243
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,080
you know it's I don't. I can't say that I

244
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120
know about every single Advantage player because some of them

245
00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:21,879
they're at the Blackjack Ball and they're kind of they're

246
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,399
kind of quiet, and I'm not having any contact with them,

247
00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:27,200
and I really don't know about all of them. I

248
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,759
would imagine that Richard knows about a lot more of

249
00:13:29,799 --> 00:13:32,200
them than I do. I mean, I've heard about people

250
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,759
doing some things that I found pretty extraordinary that I'm

251
00:13:34,799 --> 00:13:38,039
not sure if I should mention or not that I

252
00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:43,320
have not been able to access those people. I mean,

253
00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:45,039
certainly us too.

254
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,399
Speaker 3: We have that same You know, there are certain people

255
00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:51,159
on our wish list that we would love to get

256
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,960
on this show but just have never been willing to do.

257
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 2: Well. We should collaborate, maybe see who we think. Wow,

258
00:13:58,840 --> 00:13:59,360
I have to.

259
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,960
Speaker 3: Say, I would, you know, really amazed when you I

260
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,799
mean that was many many years ago when you got

261
00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:11,120
Alan Woods and did Bill Bener talk to you for this?

262
00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, no, this this was a crazy This was

263
00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:17,360
a crazy situation. I mean, I went to Hong Kong

264
00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:21,360
for Details magazine to just do like a random story

265
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:23,919
on like Hong Kong horse racing, because I thought it

266
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,960
was like this cool scene. And somehow I met there

267
00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,279
was a guy I was told was the turf columnist

268
00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:35,120
for the Hong Kong What is it, the Hong Kong

269
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,799
Jack Post. Oh oh yeah, yeah, that's that's the daily paper. Yeah,

270
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,919
And I go to the racetrack looking for him, and

271
00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:46,159
I say, oh, I don't even remember this guy's name. Now,

272
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,480
I go, oh, so and so here, and they all

273
00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:50,559
kind of snicker. They go, well, he doesn't really come

274
00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:53,360
here to report. I'm like, oh, do you have a

275
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,399
number for him? They gave me his number and I

276
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,759
called him and he goes, yeah, you can come by.

277
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,440
And I came by and talking to him, and he's

278
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,120
explaining to me that he bets and like you know,

279
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,519
uses computer models, and of course that was more fascinating

280
00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:09,919
than anything else. Then he introduced me to a guy

281
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,000
named Rod Duffersee, who was like incredibly open. He let

282
00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:17,600
me come on a racing day. It was his wife

283
00:15:17,679 --> 00:15:20,159
or girlfriend and her sister. They were like entering all

284
00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:22,840
this stuff. It was really cool and I watched and

285
00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:25,600
hung out with him and we became kind of friendly.

286
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,279
And then I found out that the big guys are

287
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,600
you know, Bill and Alan Woods. So I came back.

288
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,519
I wrote the story for details, and I pitched to

289
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,519
Wire to do you know his story on Bill Benter

290
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:42,000
and Alan Woods, and they assigned it to me. And

291
00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:46,600
somehow I got the number for Alan Woods and he

292
00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:48,519
would talk to me on the phone like he would,

293
00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:52,240
you know, entertain my calling him, and you know, he

294
00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:54,480
talked briefly, go, well, the guy you really no? I

295
00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:57,639
think I got Bill Bener's number originally, and then Bill

296
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:00,639
and Alan had out a falling out. The guy you

297
00:16:00,679 --> 00:16:04,240
really need to talk to is Alan Woods. He gives

298
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,039
me Alan's number, and he was like Bill was not

299
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,039
enthusiastic to talk to me. He gives me Alan's number,

300
00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:12,919
and Alan was much more forthcoming to talk to me.

301
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,639
And so I'm having a I mean, I was having

302
00:16:16,679 --> 00:16:19,960
a bunch of conversations with Bill, like off the record, conversation.

303
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,279
He wasn't really telling me that much. And I'm having,

304
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,279
you know, off the record conversations with Alan. And I

305
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,080
had a story to do for another magazine in Bali,

306
00:16:28,559 --> 00:16:30,799
and I said to Wired, I go, look, I'm in Bali.

307
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,480
What would you think about flying me to Hong Kong,

308
00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:35,559
putting me up for a few days and let me

309
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,440
try to get this story. I mean, it's speculative. I

310
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,120
may not get it. And if I don't get it,

311
00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:42,679
you know I'll have wasted some time, You'll have wasted

312
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,360
some expense money. But you know, we'll call it a day.

313
00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:48,399
So I land in Hong Kong and I call Bill

314
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:52,639
and I say, oh, it's Michael Kaplan you know, yes

315
00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:55,399
or I am? And I go, I go, I'm in

316
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,879
Hong Kong. I want to come talk to you. He goes, uh,

317
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,120
I've got to go basically right. And I called him

318
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,880
back multiple tuzzles, Oh he's not here, He's not here.

319
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,880
And then I called Alan. I go, guess where I am?

320
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,960
And he goes Hong Kong. I go, yeah, I want

321
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,440
to come talk to you. He goes, you know, you

322
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,839
know how he would do that, right? And so I go, well,

323
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,359
look I go him all the way here. How about

324
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,079
letting me come see you. He's like, okay, fine, and

325
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,160
he gives me his address. I went there the next

326
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,640
day and he was awesome. I mean, he gave me

327
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,039
a story. I mean, I hung out with Rod again,

328
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,839
got some more stuff from him. I think in the end,

329
00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:36,359
like Bill was trying to get me not to do it,

330
00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:38,920
and he let me. I went through the whole story

331
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,559
with him, and he said, well, maybe I'll give you

332
00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:42,680
some stuff if I know everything in the story. I

333
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,680
eventually went through. It was like basically an elaborate fact check,

334
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,440
and he didn't really in the end, I mean, he

335
00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:50,359
kind of got what he wanted. It was a bit

336
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,160
of an advantage play on his part. You know, he

337
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,880
got what he wanted and I didn't really get. But

338
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,599
we became we're like some I mean I would say

339
00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,880
when I see him with the Blackjack ball, I say hello,

340
00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:02,279
he talks to me a little bit. I mean I

341
00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:05,240
was jealous. When Bloomberg BusinessWeek did the big story on

342
00:18:05,319 --> 00:18:07,440
Bill Benter, I was like, Wow, how did that guy

343
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,759
get it? That was like kind of annoying to me.

344
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,960
But not only did I interview Alan Woods for Wired,

345
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,519
but he had me come out again. And oh and

346
00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:18,920
I got the greatest compliment from Anthony when that Wired

347
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,640
story came out. He goes, this story is the tells

348
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,720
the exact way that advantage players earned livings. He loved it,

349
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,200
and I was like, I was super flattered at the time.

350
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,000
I'd be flattered now to hear that from him. And

351
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,079
he and then Alan and I stayed in touch. I

352
00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:41,599
guess Alan liked the Wired story well enough, and he

353
00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:45,039
called me once and he messaged that emailed me and

354
00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:47,400
he said, there's a big triple trio coming up. Would

355
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:48,720
you like to come out and be with me when

356
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,079
I bet on it? And I go, yeah, of course,

357
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,480
and I pictured it to Cigar Fishenado. They put me

358
00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,200
on a plane and sent me to the Philippines where

359
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,000
Alan was living at the time. Went up to his apartment,

360
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,279
and you know, I spent I spent a couple of

361
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:03,799
days with him, and I was with him for the

362
00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:07,240
triple trio which he lost. They lost, They got crushed,

363
00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:09,599
and you know, he said, he goes, We've we've lost

364
00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:12,359
about a million dollars. He goes, well, after those a

365
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,039
million dollars, I'm glad I did it. In front of

366
00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:18,559
a journalist, so it shows that he loses also, and

367
00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:20,559
he told me he didn't really. I mean, he took

368
00:19:20,599 --> 00:19:23,200
it like remarkably well obviously. I mean, you know, he

369
00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:26,400
knows that it happens, and I think he was legitimately

370
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,440
happy that I didn't see him, you know, win a

371
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,759
ton of money. And it was great. I thought Alan

372
00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:33,759
Woods was an amazing guy. I thought it was really

373
00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:34,400
really cool.

374
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 3: Changed my life.

375
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:37,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it.

376
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's funny because I when I was got the

377
00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:46,079
idea for Gambling Wizards, I was reading a book on

378
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,519
the plane going to Hong Kong to do some work

379
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,920
for Bill, and I was reading this book, Market Wizards

380
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,480
that was a collection of interviews with commodities and futures traders,

381
00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:01,319
and I was like, gamblers are way more interesting than

382
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,200
these people, right, And so when I first got there

383
00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:06,279
and the first person I talked to was Bill, and

384
00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:08,519
I was like, Hey, I have this idea to do

385
00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:10,319
this book. And he was like, I can't do it.

386
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,200
He goes, but Alan'll do it, and he was right, Yeah,

387
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,680
Alan was sure.

388
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,160
Speaker 2: He got annoyed at one thing. I sent him the

389
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,160
John Bradshaw book Fast Company. Yes, I thought, oh, you know,

390
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,240
he you know, kind of is a thanks to him

391
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,359
being so nice to me. I ordered from Amazon I

392
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,519
had sent to his address, and then I go, how'd

393
00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:33,400
you like that book? He goes, Oh, those people are

394
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,079
awful because they're all cheaters. They're all broke. He goes there.

395
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,680
You know, he was very strict I guess about his

396
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,440
definition of an advanity. He didn't think any of the

397
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,599
people in there were advantage players. So I was like, wow,

398
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,680
that's interesting. Yeah, he was like he was like totally.

399
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: I thought.

400
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,759
Speaker 2: I was like, he's gonna say, oh, wow, this is

401
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:51,559
so cool that you sent me this. That definitely was

402
00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:52,359
not what he said.

403
00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,519
Speaker 1: In the section where you discussed Phil Ivy, Phil makes

404
00:20:57,519 --> 00:21:01,240
a point that a secret to his success his humble beginnings.

405
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,079
He didn't have money growing up, and he had to win.

406
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,319
If he didn't win, he had to resort to sleeping

407
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,920
out of doors under bridges. Do you believe that this

408
00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:14,160
humble beginnings makes you a better? Ap theory is something

409
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,079
that applies to a lot of people, or just something

410
00:21:17,599 --> 00:21:18,079
to fill?

411
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I thought it was interesting, but well,

412
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,839
I mean, listen, I don't know how much money people

413
00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:26,799
who went to MIT had to begin with, I have

414
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,720
no idea, and like those guys were obviously grade aps.

415
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,319
But I think Phil's point was if you have a

416
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,519
lot of money, you don't have to really put in

417
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:38,640
the work, and you could gamble, you could play poker

418
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,279
and it could be a fun thing and maybe you'll

419
00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,839
win a little bit, but you're not like kind of

420
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,400
playing for your life. And I think I think he's right.

421
00:21:46,559 --> 00:21:48,599
I mean, I think that you know, if you're out

422
00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:50,599
there playing for your life and if you don't, if

423
00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:53,519
you lose, you know that you might not be able

424
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:56,160
to pay your rent. And I think that doesn't make

425
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,640
you take it more seriously. It doesn't make you really

426
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,240
grind and would make you find ways of winning that

427
00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:04,599
other people might not be able to find, which kind

428
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,400
of is a definition of being an advantage player to me.

429
00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:09,559
It's like, you know, finding these ways to do it

430
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,519
that other people might not be able to figure out.

431
00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:15,759
But I mean, if you were born super rich, also,

432
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,680
it's so much work. It's not like, you know, it's

433
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,880
not like the easiest life in the world. I don't

434
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,079
know that somebody who was born rich they might think, oh, yeah,

435
00:22:25,079 --> 00:22:27,680
this is interesting. I don't really would have it in them,

436
00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:30,599
like to walk through casinos for hours on end trying

437
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,039
to find the one great dealer, the superstar dealer as

438
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,319
James would call them, who were giving it up. I mean,

439
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,839
you know, we're giving up whole cards. And I think

440
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,920
that it's and I learned that when I played on

441
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,359
the card counting team. I mean I really enjoyed it.

442
00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:49,400
And this was not I wasn't doing it for a living,

443
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,400
so it was not you know what I mean, And

444
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,640
to me, it was fun. I was enjoying it because

445
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,759
it was. It was amazing to me, like to be

446
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,599
you know, even tangentially a part of the AP world,

447
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,039
being on a card counting team. But you know, it

448
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,720
was it was definitely work, you know. I mean, it

449
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:09,519
was fun, but it was also work for sure. And

450
00:23:09,559 --> 00:23:11,920
I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think that

451
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,440
the real work that aps do, like you know how hard.

452
00:23:16,039 --> 00:23:18,599
I mean. I know James, you know, I've seen him

453
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,319
working on, you know, figuring out games. I mean, to

454
00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:23,480
sit in front of a computer as long as he does,

455
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,079
and to spend as much time, you know, at the

456
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,119
casino before the game even happens, to kind of get

457
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,119
himself set up and to get to get things going

458
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:34,400
and then to do what he called clean up at

459
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,519
the end. I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot

460
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:39,480
of work where you're not really making you know, the money,

461
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,519
You're basically playing like a regular player. And I think

462
00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:47,920
I think having humble beginnings goes a long way, because

463
00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:50,640
I just don't think somebody who was born rich would

464
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,079
want to do all the hard work that you have

465
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,119
to do. I think, you know, I think being an

466
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,440
advantaced player is a little bit like being a journalist.

467
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,960
I mean, I've said to people I've met, like young

468
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,720
people who want to become journalists, and like they say, well,

469
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,519
how do I do it? And I'm like, listen, if

470
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:07,119
this is not the thing that you want to do

471
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,960
more than anything in the world, it's never going to

472
00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:12,319
work for you. Like unless you're the most talent, unless

473
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,640
you're like the one percent of one percent, or we're

474
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,720
like that talented that it's easy. But if it's not,

475
00:24:17,799 --> 00:24:20,119
If it's not, if you're not in that one percent

476
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,279
of one percent, which you know you're probably not, you

477
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,039
have to like say, oh, I'd rather go out and

478
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,559
chase down stories and hang out with my friends. I

479
00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:30,079
would rather come up with story ideas than watch a

480
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,480
really cool movie on TV. And I think it's the

481
00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:34,960
same thing with being an AP. You have to want

482
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:37,000
to do it more than you want to do anything

483
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,920
else in life. Like it has to be a thing

484
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,279
that you love doing and you're willing to kind of

485
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:45,319
sacrifice large parts of your life to do it. I mean,

486
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,240
you know, people are on the road endlessly playing it

487
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,079
out of the way casinos, places where not. They always

488
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,079
quote James, but he's very quotable, as James put it,

489
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,759
where the cell phones don't work. You have to be

490
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,400
willing to do that. And if you're not willing to

491
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,119
do it, you are not going to have much of

492
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,319
an AP career in my opinion. And also you have

493
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,720
to be willing to be thrown out of casinos. That

494
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,079
was one of the interesting things when I was playing

495
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,960
on this card counting team. I got thrown off with

496
00:25:13,079 --> 00:25:16,079
so many tables, you know, to me, as Bill Bender

497
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,279
puts it, if they're not chasing you out, you're doing

498
00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:22,440
something wrong. So I said, oh, wow, this is like

499
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:25,200
proof of concept. When I would get backed off from

500
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,079
a table, I'd be like, they're not backing me off

501
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,119
because I think I'm an idiot, you know, even though

502
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,640
everybody would say you like you were the worst person

503
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,920
on earth. And there was a guy on the team

504
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,640
who said to me, I hate getting backed off. I

505
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,400
really try to avoid it because everybody the table looks

506
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,200
at me like a complete degenerate. And I was like, wow,

507
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,720
how can you care about that? So I do think

508
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:47,400
you can't be the kind of person who's going to

509
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,680
get bothered by being told you got to stop playing.

510
00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:53,599
You know, we don't want your business, which I don't know.

511
00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:55,160
I don't know that everybody could handle that.

512
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 3: No, You're right, A lot of people can't and a

513
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,839
lot of people can't handle betting large amounts of money.

514
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,240
I Oh, I had a friend that we we tried,

515
00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:08,960
you know, we taught him. He learned how to count cards,

516
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,559
and we tried to use himount of team, and if

517
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:13,880
he put out two hands of five hundred dollars, his

518
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:14,680
hands would shake.

519
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: You know. It's like to me, like, this is gonna

520
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,160
sound this is gonna sound counterintuitive. But one of my

521
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,920
proudest moments as a card counter was I was playing

522
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,400
at the Palms. I had won a couple grand and

523
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,559
I put in my hour. That was the protocol, play

524
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,519
for an hour. No matter win or lose. Leave. So

525
00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:33,680
I was colored up. I'm ready to go, and this

526
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,960
guy sits down, takes out a giant marker. He's got

527
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,759
a beautiful woman with him. I'm like, oh, nobody's gonna

528
00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:40,599
be looking at me. I go all stick around and

529
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,079
play one more shoe. Get my you know, you know,

530
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,799
get my low denomination ships. The kind of immediately goes

531
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:49,920
through the roof. I'm betting two spots of fifteen hundred

532
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,839
getting crushed. I left there with like, you know, the

533
00:26:54,039 --> 00:26:58,079
the packs of ten k those rappers with two rappers

534
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,200
on the table in front of me, and that's all

535
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,039
I had left. And I had to, you know, call

536
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,400
our guy in Vegas and get more money, and he goes, well,

537
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,160
dig your way out. But like looking back, there was

538
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,839
no way I was going to stop playing or alter

539
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,960
the way I was playing, even though I was just

540
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240
incredibly unlucky. You know, the dealer would have you know,

541
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,279
sixteen and get a five. I would have you know,

542
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:24,000
eleven and get a five. I mean, it just was

543
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,359
one of these horrible, horrible shoes, and the dealer felt

544
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,119
bad to me. He even said, maybe you wanted to

545
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,400
just play one hand and change the rhythm of the cards,

546
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,960
I'm like, nah, I'm trying to get my money back,

547
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,359
and you know I and I'm sure that you know,

548
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,519
everybody was loving it. The casino was probably loving that

549
00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:43,359
I was losing so much and wouldn't stop digging into

550
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,839
my money belt throwing out more cash. And but like,

551
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,759
in retrospect, that to me was kind of a proud

552
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:53,559
moment because I didn't alter what I did. I played

553
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:56,640
exactly the way I was supposed to play, like I was.

554
00:27:56,759 --> 00:27:59,599
I made myself be numb to losing that kind of money,

555
00:27:59,599 --> 00:28:01,000
Like that's a lot of money to a guy like

556
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,160
me twenty k and I made myself completely numb to that.

557
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,799
And I did exactly what I was supposed to do

558
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:09,440
that I got more money, and I don't know that

559
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,640
I want it all back, but I definitely played continually

560
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,799
as much as I possibly could. I won back as

561
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,079
much of it as I could. And I don't know,

562
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,799
I thought that was an interesting Like at the time,

563
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,359
I didn't think of it like that, But in retrospect,

564
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:25,319
I think of that as you know, that's part of it.

565
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,400
And I don't know that everybody in the world could

566
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,519
do that, Like I would never leave with a positive count,

567
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,359
like some people might say, Oh, man, I'm just unlucky

568
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,759
on this shoe. I'm going to stop. I've lost ten

569
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:38,039
k you know, in record time. I'm not going to

570
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,119
keep playing. Well. Yeah, people can't make it. Yeah, yeah,

571
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,920
you would get if I left with a positive count

572
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,759
and told the people running the team, they might have

573
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,039
thrown me off. I mean that would be a really

574
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:51,359
really bad thing to do.

575
00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

576
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: You know, one of the things that really surprised me

577
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,279
of the book, maybe the thing that surprised me the

578
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:03,000
most was you, for the first time in the book,

579
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:10,720
revealed that James and his partner Keith were behind the

580
00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:15,279
whole Don Johnson thing. Which how did you get allowed

581
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,599
to reveal that?

582
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: Don told me the whole story? It was interesting. I

583
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,440
mean I knew it, so like, this is the funny thing, Okay,

584
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,039
this is how I found that, This is how I

585
00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,119
got an inkling of it. I was at the Wyn

586
00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:31,480
and I was friends with the guy who owned Excess,

587
00:29:31,599 --> 00:29:33,839
you know the night club there. And I was at

588
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Excess and I was sitting at Victor Dre's table and

589
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,400
you knowble pretty good table. He was one of the

590
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,599
co owners or you know, or managing partners. It was

591
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,319
a pretty good table to be sitting at. You know,

592
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,559
Victor's there, he's getting you know, lots of booze or

593
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,640
all these attractive women, blah blah blah. And then walks

594
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,759
over Keith and he I think we had met once

595
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,119
or twice, and he goes, hey, he goes, he goes,

596
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,720
we're one table ahead of you. And I looked over

597
00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:04,359
and I see, I see James. And I didn't I

598
00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:05,920
didn't know do I didn't even really, I don't think

599
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,200
I even knew who Don was at the time. And

600
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,599
I see, I see they're sitting at his table. They've

601
00:30:10,599 --> 00:30:12,920
also got a bunch of you know, interesting people there,

602
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,680
and I'm like, oh, that's cool. And we're talking a

603
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,039
little bit, you know, blah blah blah. And then it

604
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:21,640
turns out that there's a big party in Don's villa

605
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,480
after so I'd followed them out. There were a couple

606
00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:26,400
of people from my table who were going to the parties,

607
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,119
so I kind of glombed onto them and we're following,

608
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,279
you know, we're following every the crowd to Don's you know,

609
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,960
fleet of cars to go back to his villa. And

610
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:37,519
I'm there and then the guy that they call Big G.

611
00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:40,000
He says to me, oh, no, you know, you can't go,

612
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,119
like like I think he like took my aunt and

613
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,240
basically ushered be away and said, yeah, you can't. You

614
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:47,720
can't come. I go, why because yeah, we got too

615
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,960
many people. I'm like, really, I go, I'm friends with

616
00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:54,240
two of the guys that are going. And he goes, yeah,

617
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:56,559
he goes, you can't go. I let him from Keith.

618
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,319
I told Big G not to let you go. I

619
00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,599
think the reporter at the party, I wasn't. I guess

620
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,200
I wasn't that trusted at that point. I wasn't that

621
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:08,720
tested me. And you know, Don goes, oh you could

622
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,640
have come. I'm like, well not really.

623
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,079
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, well Don wouldn't have been the one objecting.

624
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,759
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly exactly. So I kind of knew, but

625
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:20,960
I wound up. I knew. I knew that they were

626
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,720
playing together, obviously, And I think that James at one

627
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,359
point told me the story about how they met, you know,

628
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,200
which is in the book about how they met, and

629
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:32,359
that Keith went over there and you know, as James

630
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:34,839
put it, go there with pockets empty because they didn't

631
00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:37,319
know anything about Don at the time, they didn't know

632
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,160
he was who he was, and I was like fascinated

633
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,559
by it all. And then I think I was talking

634
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:45,039
to Don and said we should maybe do a book together,

635
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,680
and he's like, yeah, that'll be okay. And then I

636
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,160
came out to see him and you know where he lives,

637
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,079
and went to his house. We hung out for a

638
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:55,319
few hours, went to movies with him and his kids,

639
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,319
one of his kids friends, and then we went back

640
00:31:58,359 --> 00:32:00,240
and finished talking. I think he made play to go

641
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,839
to the movies, so we did the movie break and

642
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,279
then we went back and finished talking, and he told

643
00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:08,160
me a lot of stuff, you know, and I was

644
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,480
like wow. And then I became friendly, you know, relatively

645
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:13,960
you know, friendly with Don. And when I was and

646
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,839
I never really wrote it up because I think we're

647
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,839
going to do a book and then I couldn't really

648
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,400
figure out what the book would be. And I don't

649
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,720
know it just I never wrote the proposal, like I

650
00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:24,920
was injewing him, hoping I would write a proposal then

651
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,079
it could be you know, by him with me, like

652
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,960
history of how I won you know, X amount of dollars.

653
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,640
It never happened, but I had I had all the

654
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,359
recordings I had the interviews, and I think I used

655
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:37,640
a couple of little bits and pieces of it somewhere.

656
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:40,039
But when I was going to do the book, I

657
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,680
called him and said, would it be okay if I

658
00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:46,960
used that? And he goes, yeah, And so then I

659
00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,720
I wrote it up and as a courtesy, because I go,

660
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,839
I know, you don't really talk to people about this,

661
00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:54,720
I went through the whole chapter with him, from beginning

662
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:56,759
to end, and he wanted me to change a couple

663
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:59,359
of little things, which I changed. I don't know. It

664
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,440
was Yeah, it was interesting that, like he was willing

665
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,519
to reveal all that, but he was comfortable with it.

666
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,079
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure he was, but I'm not. I'm not

667
00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:12,559
sure how comfortable Keith and James were with it. But

668
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:14,519
I haven't asked them, so I don't know.

669
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,119
Speaker 2: They've seen it, they've seen the book, they've seen everything

670
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,039
in the they've seen the whole book. So yeah, you know,

671
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:24,079
you know, I guess they were. They're comfortable. Yeah. Did

672
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,400
James say anything to you?

673
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,759
Speaker 3: No, No, he didn't. He didn't.

674
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,079
Speaker 2: He would if he wasn't, right.

675
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would think so yeah, but and and again,

676
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:34,839
and it wouldn't be with you, it would be with

677
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,200
don that they'd be upset if they were going to

678
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:37,720
be right.

679
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:39,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I think I think he was cool

680
00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:43,839
with it and they and James gave me incredible access

681
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:50,000
when I when I did the the story for the

682
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,319
Times magazine. I mean, that was like insane access that

683
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,680
he gave me. And then he had me come out

684
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,400
and bep for him after the story came out, and

685
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,640
that was like filed access. I mean, I was. It

686
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,240
wasn't like, oh, yeah, we want you to come right

687
00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:08,280
about it, but it was. That was incredible. Yeah. So

688
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,320
my getting to actually play with James, that was that

689
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,119
was an unbelievable experience. I mean because basically my advantage

690
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:19,400
playing up to that point was limited to card counting,

691
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:23,480
doing some whole carding. But playing with James was really

692
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,480
a real experience. I mean that was I don't know

693
00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:29,760
that that was that was amazing. And listen, that underscores

694
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,599
what we were talking about before. You know, He's got as

695
00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:35,559
great a work ethic as anybody I've ever met. I mean,

696
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,599
he'd be up all night running numbers on his computer.

697
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:40,480
You wake up, he goes, oh, we could shave off

698
00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:43,199
one tenth of one percent if we do this, and

699
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,400
I'd be like, wow, you know it just I don't know.

700
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:48,840
And it was amazing, like how how hard he worked

701
00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:53,000
and how generous he was with the other people in

702
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,199
on the play, because he said, oh, this is my play.

703
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,760
I'm giving you X amount of dollars per hour, like

704
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,760
everybody was a partner the play, which I found to

705
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,000
be extraordinary and really really smart on James's part.

706
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's not greedy, he's not. And his work ethic,

707
00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:14,599
I mean he'll go out and play sixteen hours a day,

708
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,039
get back to the hotel room, and then program for

709
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,000
you know, six or eight hours while everybody else sleeps.

710
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well that was the funny thing. When I

711
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,239
was there. We were like staying in this in this

712
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,920
like quote unquote cabin together and everybody was angling to

713
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,800
get their own bedroom, and James was happy to sleep

714
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,559
on the couch because there was a giant TV at

715
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:39,360
the TV playing movies all night. He sleep for a

716
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,400
few minutes, then get up and do more coding, watch

717
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,559
the movie, fall asleep, get up, do more coding. So

718
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,519
he wasn't really even getting a full night's sleep, it seemed, ever,

719
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,079
which again I found that extraordinary considering. You know, it's

720
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:56,239
a big responsibility what he was doing.

721
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,679
Speaker 3: He told me recently he was somewhere and in a

722
00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:09,440
large casino and basically he had logged thirty three thousand

723
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:11,920
steps that day in the.

724
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: Casino, like looking for dealers.

725
00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, five years ago or so, I got to

726
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,480
sit with Edward Thorpe and his family at the Blackjack

727
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:24,480
Ball really by accident, but I had a nice long chat. Wow,

728
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,519
I held it together inside. I was pretty giddy from

729
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:29,760
being able to spend time with one of my heroes.

730
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:34,000
James Gross Jean and Phil Ivy are kind of ap royalty.

731
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,480
When you interview such people, do you get giddy?

732
00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:40,039
Speaker 2: I don't know. I try to be really focused on

733
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:42,920
what I'm doing and that I'm going to get my story,

734
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,000
But yeah, there definitely is a degree of that. I

735
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:50,039
mean with Ivy, it was a little bit different because

736
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:53,119
it was the time was really stilted. I mean I

737
00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:55,199
think that he thought I was going to just come

738
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,440
and interview him and leave, and that's not what I

739
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:01,360
was promised, and I wound up spending I think I

740
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,880
was there for like ten days for Playboy, and I

741
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,360
would sort of hang out with him. Then I then

742
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,239
I would call him and not hang out with him

743
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:10,960
for a couple of days. I'd hang out with him

744
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,599
for a day, so it was stretched out. So it

745
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:15,239
was a little bit too stressful for me to be

746
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,159
very giddy. I would say. The first time I interviewed him,

747
00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:20,880
I had that feeling. So I did a start on

748
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,079
him for Cigar f Shonado and it was like, that

749
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,199
was what it was. I mean, I met him at

750
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:31,760
in his sweet at the at Aria, and I hung

751
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,960
out with him there and it was, Yeah, it was

752
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,199
just him and I sitting down and there was that sense.

753
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,079
I mean, yeah, you're with like a guy who's like

754
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:43,159
the best of the best in that world. And it

755
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,079
really did feel it did feel that way. I mean

756
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:47,840
I felt that way a little bit, to be honest

757
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,800
with you, With Alan Woods, I mean when I was

758
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,000
with him, it was like this set when when I

759
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,800
interviewed him for I guess probably for the Cigar Officionado

760
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,519
story more than for War, because the Wars story also

761
00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:02,280
was like one of these ten stories. I didn't know

762
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,760
when he was going to end it, when he was

763
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,000
going to kick me out. It wasn't like one hundred

764
00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:08,840
percent comfortable. When I went to the cigar for Sionado.

765
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,039
So I was kind of like an invited guest, and

766
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:13,599
there was that sense of giddiness. And I mean, you know,

767
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:15,840
I watched him swimming up on his roof, waited for

768
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,800
him to come down. And the great thing was he

769
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,719
sent a photographer there, and like, you know, he's doing

770
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,000
all this stuff. He had a pool table in his

771
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:26,199
living room and he's like doing all stuff around. He's

772
00:38:26,199 --> 00:38:28,480
shooting pool, he's like doing all stuff. I go, hey,

773
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:30,440
I go, I've got a great idea. Why don't we

774
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,760
get some some Filipino money. You could set it on fire.

775
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,239
He goes, yeah, I'm not doing that. He wasn't just

776
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,719
set money on fire. For the story there was, well,

777
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,960
there was a great story about Ted Binyon when I

778
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,760
when I was doing this story about him from I

779
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,960
wrote about for Los Angeles magazine. You know, after he

780
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:50,280
was murdered, and somebody told me that he would go

781
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,639
to strip clubs and if he wasn't getting attention, he'd

782
00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:55,320
take one hundred dollars bills, start lighting them on fire

783
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,800
and hold them up over his head till somebody came

784
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,559
over and said, stop burning that money. We'll take it.

785
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: One of the people in your book God included as

786
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,760
an ap because he was hung like a horse. I

787
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,400
found myself wondering how being well endowed qualified one to

788
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,000
be an ap.

789
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so my thinking was he took a thing

790
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,400
that he had, and admittedly he was born with that. Well,

791
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,199
you know, you could argue that some people are born

792
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,880
really mathematically astute, and you know, it comes easier to

793
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,119
them than others. But I felt like he kind of

794
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,800
decided to use that to to make more money at

795
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,320
a pursuit than he could have made. You know, he

796
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,119
was working as a stockbroker. I mean, I'm sure he

797
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:41,079
was making pretty good money as a stockbroker, and he

798
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:43,440
realized that he could make more money in porn, and

799
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,400
I guess I viewed that as you know, the ultimate tool,

800
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,199
let's say, and he was gonna you know, I don't know.

801
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,280
In my opinion, I think it is kind of an

802
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,119
advantage play to take this thing that you have and

803
00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:58,960
to use it in the most profitable way possible. It'd

804
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,280
be like if somebody was really really good at math.

805
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,440
I mean, they could be somebody who I don't know

806
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,960
what they would do instead of you know, a casino ap,

807
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:10,800
but they could do something just I don't know. Maybe

808
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,679
they would play a lot of chess. You know, somebody

809
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,760
was really good at strategizing, and they'd spend hours and

810
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,920
hours playing chess and not really capitalize on it, but

811
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,639
they would use it instead. They would apply it for

812
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,320
either beating Poper or figuring out ways to beat casino games,

813
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:28,400
like in a weird way. And I know, I know

814
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,239
this might be a little bit of a stretch, but

815
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,360
in a weird way. You could argue that Lexington Steele

816
00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:35,280
did that with his large appendage.

817
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,039
Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm confused, Michael. A few minutes ago, we

818
00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:43,559
agreed that the APS are the smartest people in the room,

819
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:49,519
the hardest working, and really exceptional intelligence wise, and now

820
00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:54,039
you're implying that everybody can be an AP. Those are

821
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:58,840
two different sets of people. What do you say to that?

822
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I think that they're they're

823
00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:03,639
the smartest people in the room. They're also the most

824
00:41:03,679 --> 00:41:06,559
observant people in the room, the hardest working people in

825
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:09,199
the room, and the people who are best at applying

826
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,400
their intelligence towards something. I mean, I do think that's

827
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,800
another AP quality is figuring out what you could apply

828
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,159
your intelligence too. I mean, I mean I'm not trying

829
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:22,199
to say, oh, I'm like, you know, the James Grosteen

830
00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:26,039
of journalism or something, but like, I'm not the smartest

831
00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:29,000
guy in the world. But I did realize that, like

832
00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:31,239
I have a skill like for writing, I'm good at

833
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,599
talking to people, I'm good at getting information. I'm going

834
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:35,679
to figure out how to make that into a story.

835
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:38,239
So that is like a little bit of an AP move.

836
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,159
I think it is. There is an element of being

837
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:43,840
able to take this skill or this intelligence or this

838
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:47,400
I don't know, maybe born ability that you have and

839
00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:51,400
knowing how to apply it to a certain pursuit.

840
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, once you have the AP mindset, then you see

841
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,599
the world in a different way. Even if it's just

842
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,159
the during out how to best unload the dishwasher, you

843
00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:06,960
know you're gonna think about doing it the most efficient way.

844
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a great story about that. Sidney Lamet's daughter,

845
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,320
the director was talking about her father, and I know

846
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,920
it was an actor hanging out having like an hour

847
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,000
long discussion about the best way to load and unload

848
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:21,320
a dishwasher, the most efficient way to do it, And

849
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,840
I was like, that was a total AP move, Like

850
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,400
exactly you're saying, and I think that people who are

851
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,559
aps want to do everything in the most efficient way possible,

852
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:31,519
in the smartest way. I mean I was telling you

853
00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:34,239
a poker player who said, like, you know, yeah, Like

854
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,639
you know, if you drive fifty five miles an hour

855
00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:38,760
instead of sixty five miles an hour, the lifeli of

856
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,920
you getting into an accident is reduced by x percent,

857
00:42:42,119 --> 00:42:44,159
and you're giving up x percent in the time it

858
00:42:44,199 --> 00:42:47,440
takes to get there. It's a better deal to spend

859
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,360
the extra time. I mean, you know it sounds obvious,

860
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:51,960
but you also have to have it in you to

861
00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:54,760
do that. I mean, you know, most people would be like, oh,

862
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,920
I'm going fifty five, Well why is everybody passing me?

863
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,039
Speaker 3: All?

864
00:42:57,119 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 2: Maybe you'll seventy and but if you're an AP, you

865
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,760
might have thought that through and said, I don't really care.

866
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:05,480
That's the other thing is like not really caring about

867
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,960
how other people do things. That you want to do

868
00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:10,639
things in the right way, the most efficient way, the

869
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,800
most advantageous way, the way that gives you ev at

870
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:14,760
whatever you're doing.

871
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: So another person that usually does not want to talk

872
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,800
about what they do is Eddie Teams and you somehow

873
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,760
managed to get him to talk to you too.

874
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,639
Speaker 2: I met him when I was doing the story for

875
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:32,679
the Sunday Times magazine and I interviewed him for that,

876
00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:36,159
So I first met Eddie teams in a strange way.

877
00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:38,800
So when I was card counting, one of the things

878
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,400
I learned was tournament strategy, because sometimes we were get

879
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,079
invited to play in these free roll tournaments and somebody

880
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,199
I know knew that and he put me He paid

881
00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:51,679
for me to get into a tournament at Treasure Island.

882
00:43:51,679 --> 00:43:53,079
He put up the money for me to enter, and

883
00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:54,840
if I won, we were going to chop the money.

884
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,320
So I was there playing and I advanced a couple

885
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,920
level and I'm not making the money. Came pretty close,

886
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,280
but i want up. Not making the money unfortunate, but

887
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,079
I advanced I think one or two levels. And there

888
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:08,920
was a break and I went with the guy who

889
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,280
put me up. We went to breakfast and there were

890
00:44:11,519 --> 00:44:14,480
a couple other players at the breakfast and Eddie was there,

891
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,159
and Stanford Wang is there, and Eddie's got Stanford Wong's

892
00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:21,719
tournament Blackjack book with him, and there are all these

893
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,039
post it notes sticking out, and I'm like to myself,

894
00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:29,079
like this goofball. He brought the book to the tournament

895
00:44:29,519 --> 00:44:31,639
and he's gonna like try to get Stanford Wang to

896
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:34,239
sign it or something. It's just like it's weird. I

897
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,440
was like, who is this guy? And we sit down

898
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,360
and the guy who put me up he whispers to me,

899
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,679
he goes that guy is the sharpest of the sharp

900
00:44:41,039 --> 00:44:44,719
meaning Eddie, and I'm like, okay, right, and then he

901
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,239
starts talking about what happened while he was playing, and

902
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,960
he's talking about things that I one hundred percent do

903
00:44:51,039 --> 00:44:54,360
not even understand. What he's talking about happened to him

904
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,920
and how he handled it and what he did. I'm like, Okay,

905
00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:00,480
this guy's obviously, you know, a few planets above me

906
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,199
and no ornament play. And I sort of said, okay,

907
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,840
I probably shouldn't judge a guy by carrying this book.

908
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,679
And I later found out he's got a library full

909
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,079
of books loaded with post it notes, and he's like,

910
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:15,920
you know, does insane research for everything he's interested. And

911
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,320
when I was doing the Sunday Times magazine story, I

912
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:24,239
was hoping to meet Kelly, and I reached out to

913
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,079
this guy who put me into the tournament and said,

914
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,239
do you know anybody who would know Kelly's son, because

915
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,480
I didn't know. It was clear that what the play

916
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:36,599
she did with Ivy was known, but I didn't know her.

917
00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:38,239
I didn't know, you know, I really, I just knew

918
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,760
what was in the newspapers. He put me in touch

919
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,960
with Eddie. I went and met with Eddie and I

920
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,039
was asking a bunch of questions about Kelly, and he goes,

921
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:47,440
you want to just meet her? And I was like yeah,

922
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:51,960
and we went and I met her at this casino

923
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,880
was it, I don't know, some casino at the bottom

924
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,599
of the strip where she was playing baccarat and we,

925
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:01,519
you know, we hit it off and we talked. You

926
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:04,119
gave me some pretty good quotes from my story, and

927
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:06,320
the story came out and you know, she liked it.

928
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,880
And then I said, what are you think about just

929
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,840
doing a story on you? And she was like, okay.

930
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,440
I came out and did it, and we did the

931
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:18,679
story and that went really well, and it wound up

932
00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:20,800
getting optioned for a movie, and I wound up doing

933
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,960
a story on Eddie. On Eddie himself, Yeah, I did

934
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,400
a story on Eddie Teams and that's in the book.

935
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:30,159
I think Eddie's a fascinating guy. It's really he's a

936
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:33,159
guy who's really really smart and you know, really knows

937
00:46:33,159 --> 00:46:33,880
what he's doing.

938
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 3: Obviously, Michael, we want to thank you for joining us today.

939
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,079
This has been a very fascinating episode and so for

940
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:44,320
our audience. For people who want to find your book,

941
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,800
where where can they find it?

942
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, you can find it on Amazon dot com.

943
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,480
Or you could order it directly from Hunting Compress, which

944
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,639
I'm sure Anthony would like. But either way, it's a

945
00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:58,760
great book, and you know, Amazon is an easy place

946
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,280
to get it, as is Hunting Impress. You get it

947
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,079
from either either place, and I hope people or to

948
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,960
you know, the what I would hope is that people

949
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,199
will read this book and what you know and realize

950
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,920
that you could that everybody could be an advantage player,

951
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,320
that there's advantage play in almost everybody, that you could

952
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,920
find your area where advantage play makes sense and where

953
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,880
you could be an advantage player in your dominion, which

954
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,760
is a term that we use in the book that

955
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,760
dec came up with, not me, and that that's a

956
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:34,760
you know, I think I would hope that this will

957
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,880
inspire people to find their kind of inner advantage player

958
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,239
and you know, use that to be more successful and

959
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,760
live a better life and do more interesting things, more efficient,

960
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,119
make more money, have more fun. Whatever reward it is

961
00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:51,800
that you want, you could get by being an advantage

962
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,559
player in some area, whether it's coaching Little league baseball

963
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:59,679
or I don't know, racing motorcycles or fixing your car

964
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,880
or anything, or emptying your dishwasher, it will be. There

965
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,519
will be an advantage play thing that you can do

966
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:09,599
in life, and it will make your life better.

967
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 3: Michael, if people want to get a hold of you,

968
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:13,320
how can they do that?

969
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,119
Speaker 2: They could do it. I mean, I have a website

970
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:23,320
and I have My email is Michael at advantage playersbook

971
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:25,800
dot com, and that would be a great way to

972
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:26,199
reach me.

973
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,159
Speaker 3: Okay, well, we will put a link to that in

974
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,039
the show notes, and of course we will put a

975
00:48:33,079 --> 00:48:36,519
link to the book as well. So Michael, thank you

976
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:40,480
very much for being with us today. All Right, well,

977
00:48:40,519 --> 00:48:45,440
Bob's connection seems to have dropped out, So go out

978
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,360
and hit less royal flushes everybody.

979
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:48,079
Speaker 1: Good day.