WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:39.640 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:46.320 The murder that still haunts a Pennsylvania city. On the 8 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:51.520 morning of August eighth, nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old 9 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.039 Debbie Gamma disappeared after leaving her home in Eerie, Pennsylvania, 10 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.520 only to be found dead days later in a creek 11 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.759 nearly thirty. 12 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:05.599 Miles from her home. What followed was an. 13 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:09.640 Investigation that lacks suspects or even evidence pointing to a 14 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:14.719 viable suspect. That is, until a private investigator named Dan 15 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:21.120 Barber uncovered evidence leading directly to her killer, her English teacher, 16 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:28.599 Raymond Payne. After Payne's arrest, Debbie's mother, Betty Ferguson embarked 17 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.959 on her own quest for justice, which unexpectedly led her 18 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:40.400 on an incredible journey of forgiveness, utilizing newspaper articles, court documents, 19 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:46.000 and investigative files. Never before revealed. Justin Dombrowski presents a 20 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:50.840 gripping narrative of one investigator's pursuit of justice and a 21 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:55.439 mother's search for the truth. The book that we're featuring 22 00:01:55.480 --> 00:02:00.640 this evening is The Murder of Debbie Gamma, Justice and 23 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:07.599 Abolition in Erie, with my special guest author, Justin Dombrowski. 24 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:11.080 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 25 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:16.960 this interview. Justin Dombrowski. Thank you very much for having 26 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:19.360 me Dan, thank you so much, and welcome back to 27 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.800 the program. And congratulations on this new book, The Murder 28 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:24.000 of Debbie Gamma. 29 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.000 Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. It's nice to 30 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:27.800 speak with you again. 31 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.759 Let's talk about the setting. Just set the stage here. 32 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.800 The setting for this story are the beaches of presqu 33 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.719 Isle State Park in Erie, Pennsylvania. You say, the sandy 34 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:42.719 beaches flanking the shore of Lake Erie are a sought 35 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:48.560 after tourist destination. Let's talking about Friday morning, August eighth, 36 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:53.719 nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old Deborah Lynn Gamma. Take 37 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:58.560 us back to Erie, Pennsylvania and August eighth, nineteen seventy. 38 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.919 Five, curs you know, as you sayd the book begins, 39 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:05.319 we're in the mid seventies. You know, this is coming after, 40 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.319 you know, the nineteen sixties. You know, the city of 41 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.599 Erie and especially cities along the Great Lakes are experiencing 42 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.400 somewhat of a downturn with the economy, which would go 43 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.479 on to continue. You know, gives you a little bit 44 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.319 of an insight into what these industrial cities and towns 45 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:24.439 were going through. You know. The setting where we're at here, 46 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.199 you know, it's it's it's a typical story that we 47 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:29.439 can all relate to. It's towards the end of or 48 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.879 actually it's the beginning of August. But you know, for 49 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.319 anybody who has children, or even us back when we 50 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.280 were younger, you know, August is kind of that sentimental 51 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:41.599 reminder that school's on the horizon. You got to go 52 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:43.800 back to school, and you know summer is going to 53 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.520 be almost over. So you know, the story starts out 54 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.240 kind of, you know, bittersweet in a way that you know, 55 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.879 at least Debbie's story really begins on that faithful morning 56 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.400 August eighth, you know, nineteen seventy five, you. 57 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.800 Right, that a couple of weeks earlier, the family, Betty 58 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:07.039 and stepdad Norm and her siblings had gone to Florida, 59 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:11.719 and Debbie had been infatuated with a young man at 60 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:14.159 that time. She got his address and his phone number. 61 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.839 And then August eighth, nineteen seventy five, you take us 62 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:21.720 to early morning when she's talking to her sister Michelle, 63 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.959 or as she's called Missy. What is the conversation between 64 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.759 Debbie and her younger sister that morning? 65 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.160 So that morning is is I think your typical in 66 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.480 you know, I had spoken with Michelle, you know, consulted 67 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.199 with her on the book when we started it, and 68 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:40.680 then even you know, once we got further along here, 69 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:44.600 but the banter between two of them was your typical 70 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:49.000 older younger sibling, you know, discussion when your younger sibling. 71 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:51.519 You know, we've all been there where they're they're nagging 72 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:53.879 you and you know you're annoying me, leaving me alone. 73 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:55.600 That kind of a little bit bit back and forth, 74 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.959 playful talk. So that that's kind of really what kind 75 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:01.040 of starts and set that's the scene. First thing in 76 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.120 the book is there's this discussion and dialogue between both 77 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:07.759 of them, and Michelle actually would become critical with being 78 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.600 one of the few people to last see Debbie alive 79 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:11.759 that morning. 80 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:16.279 There's a conversation about where she's going. She's trying on 81 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.639 different clothes, and Missy after where she's going. She says 82 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:21.959 she's going to the beach, and so you write that 83 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:26.839 sometime between seven and seven thirty am, Debbie departed with 84 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.839 the blue top and blue shorts and as far as 85 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.519 Missy knew, she was going to the beach, and that 86 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.879 was the beach we spoke about Prescottle State Park in Neary, Pennsylvania, 87 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.639 that beach, that tourist attraction. So tell us what happens 88 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:45.680 a little bit later with Betty, her mother and looking 89 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:46.879 for her daughter. 90 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.759 So really, and that's kind of one of the many 91 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.199 enduring mysteries that we have in this case, kind of 92 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.360 you run into that it's reoccurring throughout the book, is 93 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.399 that there's you know, even with the resolution that you 94 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.079 know readers will find out, there's still one of the mysteries. 95 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:05.480 And that's one of these ones, is that you know, 96 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.079 she says she was going to the beach. We don't 97 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.319 really know what happened. Just kind of a little bit 98 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:12.800 of a side point is that Debbie did have a 99 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:14.600 habit of going with one of her best friends to 100 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.000 the beach. You know, she was involved in a click 101 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:19.519 of kids that all knew each other that would go. 102 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:24.399 They would hang out, socialize, typical teenage things you would 103 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:26.319 do back in the seventies. So it wasn't really out 104 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.759 of the ordinary. It wasn't something that later on when 105 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.680 her mother, Betty, woke up and found that she was gone, 106 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.120 it wasn't really out of the ordinary. Debbie had a 107 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:39.000 habit of going to the beach with her friends. Her 108 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.959 mother figured, Okay, when she gets back, you know, we'll 109 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.680 have a talk with her. Because at the time, Debbie's 110 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.079 mother and her stepfather were preparing to sell the house. 111 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:50.000 They had unfortunately gotten into an argument the night before 112 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:53.040 about Debbie keeping her room clean, something along those lines. 113 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.839 You know. As the day they kind of wore out, 114 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.680 you know, the sun starts to set an evening on 115 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.879 all states and Betty Ferguson comes to the realization that 116 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.560 her daughter's not home. Panic doesn't immediately set him, you know, 117 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:09.079 and this is kind of a critical part of the story. 118 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.439 This is something we as parents all fear is, you know, 119 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.240 you let your child go outside, is it really safe? 120 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:17.959 You know, when they don't come home, when the street 121 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.680 lights are on. That's kind of where things start to 122 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:22.560 begin to take a downturn. 123 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.759 You say that the family was preparing to go to 124 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:29.839 an amusement park the next day, and Betty said, no, 125 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:34.720 we're not going anywhere till we find Debbie. And that's it, 126 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.879 And so you say it, panic doesn't really set in. 127 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.920 She doesn't want to imagine anything they could have happened 128 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.800 to her. And again, it's nineteen seventy five, and there's 129 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:50.439 a certain amount of innocence and naivety that people suffered 130 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:53.120 from at that time, especially when they lived in smaller 131 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.000 towns where they felt they knew most everyone. So what 132 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.199 happens in terms of she speaks to Missy and ask 133 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:06.199 her questions, how does she proceed in discovering things about that, 134 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.639 for example, that her daughter had left her person or 135 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:15.680 contact lenses. So tell us about her growing fear of 136 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.360 something happening and how she proceeds with discovering what happened 137 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:19.920 to her daughter. 138 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:23.439 Sure, so, I mean, I think you know the initial 139 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.199 progression was, you know, you kind of hinted at an 140 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:29.399 excellent point, is that this is the nineteen seventies than today, 141 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:31.560 you know, we don't have technology back then, of course, 142 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.720 you know, there's a little bit more of a freedom 143 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.759 of kids at the time, and Debbie was regarded and 144 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:40.639 she still often remembered as a free spirited kid who 145 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:43.879 just loved life. So it wasn't anything really out of 146 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:46.919 the ordinary. You know, Debbie would always usually sure she 147 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.240 would come back. But that next day, when she still 148 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.919 hadn't returned, you know, her mother and stepfather had started 149 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:56.919 to get you know, a little concerned enough to start 150 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.039 reaching out to friends, you know, relatives who may have 151 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.600 had a close relationship with her, trying to figure out 152 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:06.879 what she was. And I think, you know, it kind 153 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:13.399 of you know, and people in recent times have criticized 154 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.000 Betty for it, but there was nothing completely out of 155 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.759 character with what Debbie had. Ultimately decides the fact that 156 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:23.879 she just hadn't come home. You know, Like I said, 157 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:25.960 she was a typical teenager at the time. She didn't 158 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.759 do anything out of the ordinary that any other teenagers did. 159 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.720 So as that progresses through the weeknd and Debbie's still 160 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:36.799 not home, her best friend hadn't seen her, you know, 161 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.679 then her mom starts to become worried, and then they 162 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.320 really start to go through the motions and even to 163 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.279 the point to where they Her mother eventually relented and 164 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.720 decided to visit the go downtown to Eerie to visit 165 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:54.000 the city very police department. And at the time she 166 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.000 took a picture of her, and the sergeant at the 167 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.000 front desk or office or whoever she spoke with actually 168 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.320 declined to take the photo and decline to take a 169 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.000 missing person's report. So she's really faced with this dilemma 170 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.000 that you know her, her teenage daughter is missing. She 171 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:15.120 doesn't know where she is in any kind of leads 172 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.879 that they can search or go through to find her 173 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.120 coming up empty. And it's you and you really kind 174 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.480 of notice as it starts to progress and get worse. 175 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:26.879 Like I said, it all kind of hinges on that 176 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:28.159 parent's worst nightmare. 177 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:32.559 You're right that August thirteenth, nineteen seventy five, the morning 178 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.679 news the front page. Betty gets a call from Robin's father, 179 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:41.679 Robin Neil being the best friend of our daughter. Debbie 180 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.399 said they needed to read the front page and it's 181 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:49.879 the headline is women's woman's body found floating in area creek. 182 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.600 There was some description about her legs and her hands 183 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.559 being bound by wire, and so in this creek is 184 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.399 just north of Meadville in another county in Crawford County. 185 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.279 So Betty doesn't want to believe it, but the more 186 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:09.360 she reads and the more she's urged by other people 187 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.279 to take a look at this, she finally is urged 188 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:14.080 to call the police. 189 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:19.399 Throughout that entire time, and Betty wrote about this quite prevalently, 190 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:21.799 is her mind was kind of going back and forth. 191 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.879 You know, Debbie's missing. There's a body that was found 192 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.320 in Mill Creek. But then she kind of goes back 193 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.080 and forth. Wall says here that it was a body 194 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:33.039 not of a teenager but a young woman, and she 195 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:35.679 does what every parent does. You know, second guess is herself, 196 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:37.799 did I go through the things in her room? Did she? 197 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.039 You know, Betty had a pretty good idea of what 198 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.960 Debbie would wear. You know, Debbie had a unique wardrobe. 199 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.799 She always went out with a pair of rings on 200 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.480 each finger, which we're missing at the time. So Betty 201 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.039 believed she had a good idea of what Debbie was 202 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:57.399 wearing when she went missing, went upstairs, found that pretty 203 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.639 much almost everything was in order. But then there's other 204 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.000 things that start to come into play in the next 205 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:04.960 day or two with that, which I won't get into 206 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.919 too much detail and spoil it, but there's like I said, 207 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.200 it initially then kind of escalates with with these newspaper 208 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.960 articles reporting about it because at the time they had 209 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.399 a newspaper correspondent through the morning news that would report 210 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.440 on news items in Meadville. You know, oil city Titus 211 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.320 filled those areas, and you know, as more details start 212 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.480 to come out, they kind of Betty's family, including her 213 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.600 husband Norma. At the time, it urged her, Look, you 214 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:32.919 need to at least go the worst thing that can 215 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.120 happen and is they tell you it's Debbie, or the 216 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.000 best thing that could happen is they rolled out and say, no, 217 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.200 this isn't your daughter and she's somewhere else. 218 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.480 She is finally convinced when a person comes to the home, 219 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:47.240 a friend of the family and says, I have a 220 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:51.879 friend that's the dispatcher, and they talked about this girl 221 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:58.200 having no fillings whatsoever, knowing that Debbie didn't have any fillings, 222 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:02.799 and so that jarred Betty into the realization that it 223 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.200 very well could be your daughter. 224 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.399 Yeah, I mean that kind of plays into it as well. 225 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.919 But and this is still kind of prevalence today even 226 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.559 though Erie has Erie is not as large of a 227 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:15.600 city as it used to be. That characterization of a 228 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:19.200 small town where everybody knows somebody still exists as it 229 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.879 did back then, So stuff like that would not have 230 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:23.919 been out of the ordinary, of course. But you know, 231 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:26.840 once she hears the details about the teeth and then 232 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.039 there's a comment made about what kind of nail Paul 233 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.279 she was wearing, right then that kind of you know, 234 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:34.879 begins to take a turn from that moment on. 235 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:41.000 Very interesting. While the family is trying to grieve August 236 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:46.960 twenty second, a letter addressed to Betty arrives at their 237 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:53.240 home with an Erie, Pennsylvania postmark, and the letter what 238 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.639 does it say in the letter? 239 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.240 So the letter, to the best of my knowledge, I 240 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.600 believes look for the wolf and Deep's clothing. There is 241 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.720 several letters that the family received that may be the 242 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.799 wrong one. I may be mentioning, but the letters pretty 243 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:13.159 much indicated or gave it just that they're not necessarily 244 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.720 that they're looking in the wrong place, but that you know, 245 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.759 they need to kind of look closer at who would 246 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.120 be responsible for it. 247 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:26.559 It's also very interesting the norm and her actual biological father, 248 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:31.519 Dick Gamma, are both engaged in the search at first 249 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.840 for Debbie and her body, but then later they are 250 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:41.000 involved in making an illustration. For example, Dick made illustrations 251 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.159 of the missing jewelry to aid the police in the search. 252 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.440 And then we also talk about that this is a 253 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:54.440 state police case jurisdiction. But Betty is Ferguson and her 254 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:59.519 husband Noram are very frustrated and they look for help 255 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.799 with a private investigator. Tell us about Dan Barber and 256 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.000 his introduction to the Ferguson family. 257 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:10.919 So Dan Barber is actually a native of the area. 258 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:14.840 Pretty good. He's actually, you know, through this process, actually 259 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.679 became a really good friend of mine in the process, 260 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.080 you know, kind of going back to nineteen seventy five. 261 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.440 You know, Dan Barber also had connections with Meadville growing up. 262 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:27.600 He had, you know, a desire and background to do 263 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:30.519 something in law enforcement. You know, at least that Heath 264 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.639 States goes back to an early age. You know, he 265 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.120 first enlisted it in the United States Army Military Police Corps, 266 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.679 served briefly as a vice Section chief for the provosts. 267 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:44.559 Marshall's office in the Paju Gun Province in the Republic 268 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:48.000 of Korea. You know, he then returned stateside was stationed 269 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.080 in Arizona. He then went to Military Police School in 270 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:55.879 Fort Gordon, which located in Augusta, Georgia. This is about 271 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:59.440 in nineteen sixty eight. You know, it was there he 272 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.320 underwent further training with the Criminal Investigation Division of Military 273 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.000 known what we referred to as the CIDEA as a 274 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.759 special agent. Now the SEA IDEA essentially is you know, 275 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.320 pretty much the law enforcement arm of the United States 276 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.240 Army at the time, and in nineteen sixty eight, you know, 277 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.360 this is kind of I think this perfectly reflects on 278 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.639 Dan's character and his ability to do such an excellent 279 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.200 investigation with any of the cases he's done, including debies 280 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.960 and over the years. Is he benefited from instructors who 281 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.480 were some of the most experienced former law enforcement officers 282 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.399 from around the country post World War Two. You know, 283 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.759 one of his instructors, for example, was Thomas Joseph McGreevy, 284 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.440 who was a World War Two veteran. You know, McGreevy 285 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.919 had he was a veteran of the eighty second Airborne 286 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.720 and then who was recruited into the CID in nineteen 287 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.720 fifty two. Greevy actually would go on and was reassigned 288 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:02.679 to the Malai massacre investigation that occurred. After his stint 289 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.599 with the CID, Dan Barbara returned to Arizona and then 290 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.359 was asked to become involved in several different other cases. 291 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.279 Now before or after he became a special agent. Rather, 292 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.720 he did serve with the United States Army Criminal Intelligence, 293 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.000 Criminal Investigation, sorry, Commanding Castle, Germany. Now this is in 294 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.240 the early nineteen seventies, before he would go on to 295 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.359 become a senior intelligence analyst. He actually, you know, the 296 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.440 Gamma case, just to kind of give a little bit 297 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:35.359 of a footnote, would not be his first introduction to 298 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.799 a homicide investigation. He had dealt with a prior homicide 299 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.759 investigation in Germany involving a United States soldier. A little 300 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.400 bit too much of a footnote to go into that, 301 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:51.759 but he had extensive backgrounds and doing investigations, interrogation techniques, 302 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.440 and like I said, he came from the cream of 303 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.039 the crop of the CID investigators and his credential supported that. 304 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.720 So essentially what happens is kind of getting a little 305 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.039 bit off topic there. But you know, Dick Yamma Debbie's 306 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:12.440 father calls Dan Barber introduces himself you know, says he 307 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.200 wants to talk about his daughter's murder, which at that 308 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:17.920 time had the case had completely fizzled out, they had 309 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.400 no leads and whatnot. Dan, who was assisted by his 310 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.039 partner Tom Martin, who was a veteran of the United 311 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.559 States Marine Corps and also a good friend of his, 312 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:35.279 visit with Dick get information about the case. Eventually Betty's 313 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.200 mom and stepdad are brought in and you know they 314 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.880 discussed the case as well. That's essentially I you know, 315 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.000 Dan's introduction into the case. 316 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.920 Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 317 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.640 The State Police are investigating and Dan Barber is conducting 318 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.240 his own investigation. What is the first thing, significant thing 319 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.200 in terms of this case breaking that Dan Barber discovers 320 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.359 before we talk about Dan Barber trying to share information 321 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.039 with the Pennsylvania State Police. 322 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:14.319 Well, what essentially happens is in the coming It was 323 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.440 pretty quick, I would say, you know, beginning of December 324 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:22.240 until about mid December, Dan Barber had accumulated quite a 325 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.000 bit of information. He had spoken with Debbie's close friends, 326 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:31.119 including her good friend Robneil. He had accumulated enough information 327 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.200 where he was kind of at least he could rule 328 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:38.559 out certain individuals, and you know, by mid December, you know, 329 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.559 he he had met with a gentleman by the name 330 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.880 of Louis Penman at the Lawrence Park Police barracks. Essentially 331 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.440 what had happened is they essentially just brushed him off 332 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.559 and said they didn't need his assistance. They told him 333 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.720 he was more than welcome to do a parallel investigation, 334 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.440 but that they declined to share any information with him, 335 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:58.720 and he went on his way. So I would say, 336 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:04.480 what really kind of piques his interests is when Debbie's 337 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.200 mother indicates that Debbie was not necessarily close, but she 338 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:10.880 was on friendly terms with her English teacher, Raymond Payne 339 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:14.119 and strong Vincent High School. There's a few other items 340 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.559 of information that fall into place gradually that lead towards 341 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.839 a suspicion that at least Raymond Payne should be looked at, 342 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.039 you know, especially and this kind of goes back to 343 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.039 some conversations he has with her friends and classmates that 344 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.559 no Debbie fellow girls that were at high school with 345 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.359 her on you know, doing extracurricular activities and such. So 346 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.960 he sort of starts to lead the investigation that way, 347 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:43.920 and even then when he brings this information to the 348 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:46.880 state police, they still want nothing to do with him. 349 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.519 They kind of schew him away and tell him to 350 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:52.920 pretty much that they don't need his information. 351 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.680 He discovers a person named John Lesqueris and also that 352 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.720 he's a student at this same school as Debbie attended, 353 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.960 but also that he had a relationship with the same 354 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.960 teacher that you mentioned that Raymond Payne. It was also 355 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.240 one of his own teachers as well. He finds out 356 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.759 about John Lacaris, the relationship he has with his teacher 357 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.279 in terms of living with him, and also his criminal 358 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.240 record and that connection with his teacher. 359 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.119 Yeah, Laskaris is a unique individual, and this is something 360 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.200 that you know when las Karras is arrested for doing 361 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.599 burglaries and petty thefts and stuff like that. Lascaris had 362 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.720 a long prior criminal history of these types of crimes, 363 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:43.759 so it wasn't really out of the ordinary when he 364 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.079 was arrested. But when that information is brought into the 365 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.960 public and Betty Ferguson, Debbie's mother, notices it, she brings 366 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:54.279 it to Dan Barber's attention, and this is another kind 367 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.119 of nail on the coffin for Dan, where he says, oh, 368 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.920 Lascars not only knows of Debbie, but he lives with 369 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.440 Ray Payne and with las Karis. Is Debbie did not 370 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:11.960 have a real favorable opinion of him. Las Karis was 371 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.119 reviewed kind of by his classmates as a bragger, I 372 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:20.480 know at all, somebody who's real cocky. So Dan could 373 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.279 at least kind of rule out and assimilate that, you know, 374 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:26.440 this isn't something that would have been like, you know, 375 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.319 a romantic trust or a boyfriend or anything like that. 376 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.960 But Laskaris comes into play and you know, eventually gives 377 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.680 Dan Barber some information which again sets him on what 378 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.480 he believes is the right path towards Debbie's killer. 379 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:46.920 In particular, he talks and Barber is very interested in 380 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:52.720 the copper wire that was bound Debbie at this crime scene. 381 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:59.759 So what does Lacaris have to say regarding that copper wire? 382 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.240 Much the gist of the conversation when last Kari's question 383 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.640 by Dan Barber about the wire is he states that 384 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:13.279 he had burglarized a store in Erie, Pennsylvania on Casgate Street, 385 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.240 that he had stolen the wire, that he had brought 386 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.160 it back to Payne's house, and he makes a comment 387 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.839 that Paine had told him to get rid of the wire. 388 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:28.799 This was after Debbie had been located, and he had 389 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:31.839 mentioned also that there was still a school wire on 390 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:36.400 the property where Raymond Pain still resided. Now, the interesting 391 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:41.000 thing with this is that the wire itself was a 392 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.880 really really unique type of wire. It was a very 393 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.680 thin type of welding wire. Not real, i would say, 394 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:56.119 in excessive demand to where you could just go to 395 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:57.640 any like, you know, if you were to go to 396 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.680 Home Depot or Low's today. It wasn't a So that 397 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:04.880 was kind of another clue that Dan Barber had as 398 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.319 this wire which was used, which was found on Debbie's 399 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.599 you know, her hands, her throat, and her ankles, was 400 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.400 very unique any of the stores that had had burglaries 401 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.680