Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
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Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2: The murder that still haunts a Pennsylvania city. On the
Speaker 2: morning of August eighth, nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old
Speaker 2: Debbie Gamma disappeared after leaving her home in Eerie, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: only to be found dead days later in a creek
Speaker 2: nearly thirty.
Speaker 3: Miles from her home. What followed was an.
Speaker 2: Investigation that lacks suspects or even evidence pointing to a
Speaker 2: viable suspect. That is, until a private investigator named Dan
Speaker 2: Barber uncovered evidence leading directly to her killer, her English teacher,
Speaker 2: Raymond Payne. After Payne's arrest, Debbie's mother, Betty Ferguson embarked
Speaker 2: on her own quest for justice, which unexpectedly led her
Speaker 2: on an incredible journey of forgiveness, utilizing newspaper articles, court documents,
Speaker 2: and investigative files. Never before revealed. Justin Dombrowski presents a
Speaker 2: gripping narrative of one investigator's pursuit of justice and a
Speaker 2: mother's search for the truth. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 2: this evening is The Murder of Debbie Gamma, Justice and
Speaker 2: Abolition in Erie, with my special guest author, Justin Dombrowski.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 2: this interview. Justin Dombrowski. Thank you very much for having
Speaker 2: me Dan, thank you so much, and welcome back to
Speaker 2: the program. And congratulations on this new book, The Murder
Speaker 2: of Debbie Gamma.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. It's nice to
Speaker 3: speak with you again.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the setting. Just set the stage here.
Speaker 2: The setting for this story are the beaches of presqu
Speaker 2: Isle State Park in Erie, Pennsylvania. You say, the sandy
Speaker 2: beaches flanking the shore of Lake Erie are a sought
Speaker 2: after tourist destination. Let's talking about Friday morning, August eighth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old Deborah Lynn Gamma. Take
Speaker 2: us back to Erie, Pennsylvania and August eighth, nineteen seventy.
Speaker 3: Five, curs you know, as you sayd the book begins,
Speaker 3: we're in the mid seventies. You know, this is coming after,
Speaker 3: you know, the nineteen sixties. You know, the city of
Speaker 3: Erie and especially cities along the Great Lakes are experiencing
Speaker 3: somewhat of a downturn with the economy, which would go
Speaker 3: on to continue. You know, gives you a little bit
Speaker 3: of an insight into what these industrial cities and towns
Speaker 3: were going through. You know. The setting where we're at here,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's a typical story that we
Speaker 3: can all relate to. It's towards the end of or
Speaker 3: actually it's the beginning of August. But you know, for
Speaker 3: anybody who has children, or even us back when we
Speaker 3: were younger, you know, August is kind of that sentimental
Speaker 3: reminder that school's on the horizon. You got to go
Speaker 3: back to school, and you know summer is going to
Speaker 3: be almost over. So you know, the story starts out
Speaker 3: kind of, you know, bittersweet in a way that you know,
Speaker 3: at least Debbie's story really begins on that faithful morning
Speaker 3: August eighth, you know, nineteen seventy five, you.
Speaker 2: Right, that a couple of weeks earlier, the family, Betty
Speaker 2: and stepdad Norm and her siblings had gone to Florida,
Speaker 2: and Debbie had been infatuated with a young man at
Speaker 2: that time. She got his address and his phone number.
Speaker 2: And then August eighth, nineteen seventy five, you take us
Speaker 2: to early morning when she's talking to her sister Michelle,
Speaker 2: or as she's called Missy. What is the conversation between
Speaker 2: Debbie and her younger sister that morning?
Speaker 3: So that morning is is I think your typical in
Speaker 3: you know, I had spoken with Michelle, you know, consulted
Speaker 3: with her on the book when we started it, and
Speaker 3: then even you know, once we got further along here,
Speaker 3: but the banter between two of them was your typical
Speaker 3: older younger sibling, you know, discussion when your younger sibling.
Speaker 3: You know, we've all been there where they're they're nagging
Speaker 3: you and you know you're annoying me, leaving me alone.
Speaker 3: That kind of a little bit bit back and forth,
Speaker 3: playful talk. So that that's kind of really what kind
Speaker 3: of starts and set that's the scene. First thing in
Speaker 3: the book is there's this discussion and dialogue between both
Speaker 3: of them, and Michelle actually would become critical with being
Speaker 3: one of the few people to last see Debbie alive
Speaker 3: that morning.
Speaker 2: There's a conversation about where she's going. She's trying on
Speaker 2: different clothes, and Missy after where she's going. She says
Speaker 2: she's going to the beach, and so you write that
Speaker 2: sometime between seven and seven thirty am, Debbie departed with
Speaker 2: the blue top and blue shorts and as far as
Speaker 2: Missy knew, she was going to the beach, and that
Speaker 2: was the beach we spoke about Prescottle State Park in Neary, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: that beach, that tourist attraction. So tell us what happens
Speaker 2: a little bit later with Betty, her mother and looking
Speaker 2: for her daughter.
Speaker 3: So really, and that's kind of one of the many
Speaker 3: enduring mysteries that we have in this case, kind of
Speaker 3: you run into that it's reoccurring throughout the book, is
Speaker 3: that there's you know, even with the resolution that you
Speaker 3: know readers will find out, there's still one of the mysteries.
Speaker 3: And that's one of these ones, is that you know,
Speaker 3: she says she was going to the beach. We don't
Speaker 3: really know what happened. Just kind of a little bit
Speaker 3: of a side point is that Debbie did have a
Speaker 3: habit of going with one of her best friends to
Speaker 3: the beach. You know, she was involved in a click
Speaker 3: of kids that all knew each other that would go.
Speaker 3: They would hang out, socialize, typical teenage things you would
Speaker 3: do back in the seventies. So it wasn't really out
Speaker 3: of the ordinary. It wasn't something that later on when
Speaker 3: her mother, Betty, woke up and found that she was gone,
Speaker 3: it wasn't really out of the ordinary. Debbie had a
Speaker 3: habit of going to the beach with her friends. Her
Speaker 3: mother figured, Okay, when she gets back, you know, we'll
Speaker 3: have a talk with her. Because at the time, Debbie's
Speaker 3: mother and her stepfather were preparing to sell the house.
Speaker 3: They had unfortunately gotten into an argument the night before
Speaker 3: about Debbie keeping her room clean, something along those lines.
Speaker 3: You know. As the day they kind of wore out,
Speaker 3: you know, the sun starts to set an evening on
Speaker 3: all states and Betty Ferguson comes to the realization that
Speaker 3: her daughter's not home. Panic doesn't immediately set him, you know,
Speaker 3: and this is kind of a critical part of the story.
Speaker 3: This is something we as parents all fear is, you know,
Speaker 3: you let your child go outside, is it really safe?
Speaker 3: You know, when they don't come home, when the street
Speaker 3: lights are on. That's kind of where things start to
Speaker 3: begin to take a downturn.
Speaker 2: You say that the family was preparing to go to
Speaker 2: an amusement park the next day, and Betty said, no,
Speaker 2: we're not going anywhere till we find Debbie. And that's it,
Speaker 2: And so you say it, panic doesn't really set in.
Speaker 2: She doesn't want to imagine anything they could have happened
Speaker 2: to her. And again, it's nineteen seventy five, and there's
Speaker 2: a certain amount of innocence and naivety that people suffered
Speaker 2: from at that time, especially when they lived in smaller
Speaker 2: towns where they felt they knew most everyone. So what
Speaker 2: happens in terms of she speaks to Missy and ask
Speaker 2: her questions, how does she proceed in discovering things about that,
Speaker 2: for example, that her daughter had left her person or
Speaker 2: contact lenses. So tell us about her growing fear of
Speaker 2: something happening and how she proceeds with discovering what happened
Speaker 2: to her daughter.
Speaker 3: Sure, so, I mean, I think you know the initial
Speaker 3: progression was, you know, you kind of hinted at an
Speaker 3: excellent point, is that this is the nineteen seventies than today,
Speaker 3: you know, we don't have technology back then, of course,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a little bit more of a freedom
Speaker 3: of kids at the time, and Debbie was regarded and
Speaker 3: she still often remembered as a free spirited kid who
Speaker 3: just loved life. So it wasn't anything really out of
Speaker 3: the ordinary. You know, Debbie would always usually sure she
Speaker 3: would come back. But that next day, when she still
Speaker 3: hadn't returned, you know, her mother and stepfather had started
Speaker 3: to get you know, a little concerned enough to start
Speaker 3: reaching out to friends, you know, relatives who may have
Speaker 3: had a close relationship with her, trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what she was. And I think, you know, it kind
Speaker 3: of you know, and people in recent times have criticized
Speaker 3: Betty for it, but there was nothing completely out of
Speaker 3: character with what Debbie had. Ultimately decides the fact that
Speaker 3: she just hadn't come home. You know, Like I said,
Speaker 3: she was a typical teenager at the time. She didn't
Speaker 3: do anything out of the ordinary that any other teenagers did.
Speaker 3: So as that progresses through the weeknd and Debbie's still
Speaker 3: not home, her best friend hadn't seen her, you know,
Speaker 3: then her mom starts to become worried, and then they
Speaker 3: really start to go through the motions and even to
Speaker 3: the point to where they Her mother eventually relented and
Speaker 3: decided to visit the go downtown to Eerie to visit
Speaker 3: the city very police department. And at the time she
Speaker 3: took a picture of her, and the sergeant at the
Speaker 3: front desk or office or whoever she spoke with actually
Speaker 3: declined to take the photo and decline to take a
Speaker 3: missing person's report. So she's really faced with this dilemma
Speaker 3: that you know her, her teenage daughter is missing. She
Speaker 3: doesn't know where she is in any kind of leads
Speaker 3: that they can search or go through to find her
Speaker 3: coming up empty. And it's you and you really kind
Speaker 3: of notice as it starts to progress and get worse.
Speaker 3: Like I said, it all kind of hinges on that
Speaker 3: parent's worst nightmare.
Speaker 2: You're right that August thirteenth, nineteen seventy five, the morning
Speaker 2: news the front page. Betty gets a call from Robin's father,
Speaker 2: Robin Neil being the best friend of our daughter. Debbie
Speaker 2: said they needed to read the front page and it's
Speaker 2: the headline is women's woman's body found floating in area creek.
Speaker 2: There was some description about her legs and her hands
Speaker 2: being bound by wire, and so in this creek is
Speaker 2: just north of Meadville in another county in Crawford County.
Speaker 2: So Betty doesn't want to believe it, but the more
Speaker 2: she reads and the more she's urged by other people
Speaker 2: to take a look at this, she finally is urged
Speaker 2: to call the police.
Speaker 3: Throughout that entire time, and Betty wrote about this quite prevalently,
Speaker 3: is her mind was kind of going back and forth.
Speaker 3: You know, Debbie's missing. There's a body that was found
Speaker 3: in Mill Creek. But then she kind of goes back
Speaker 3: and forth. Wall says here that it was a body
Speaker 3: not of a teenager but a young woman, and she
Speaker 3: does what every parent does. You know, second guess is herself,
Speaker 3: did I go through the things in her room? Did she?
Speaker 3: You know, Betty had a pretty good idea of what
Speaker 3: Debbie would wear. You know, Debbie had a unique wardrobe.
Speaker 3: She always went out with a pair of rings on
Speaker 3: each finger, which we're missing at the time. So Betty
Speaker 3: believed she had a good idea of what Debbie was
Speaker 3: wearing when she went missing, went upstairs, found that pretty
Speaker 3: much almost everything was in order. But then there's other
Speaker 3: things that start to come into play in the next
Speaker 3: day or two with that, which I won't get into
Speaker 3: too much detail and spoil it, but there's like I said,
Speaker 3: it initially then kind of escalates with with these newspaper
Speaker 3: articles reporting about it because at the time they had
Speaker 3: a newspaper correspondent through the morning news that would report
Speaker 3: on news items in Meadville. You know, oil city Titus
Speaker 3: filled those areas, and you know, as more details start
Speaker 3: to come out, they kind of Betty's family, including her
Speaker 3: husband Norma. At the time, it urged her, Look, you
Speaker 3: need to at least go the worst thing that can
Speaker 3: happen and is they tell you it's Debbie, or the
Speaker 3: best thing that could happen is they rolled out and say, no,
Speaker 3: this isn't your daughter and she's somewhere else.
Speaker 2: She is finally convinced when a person comes to the home,
Speaker 2: a friend of the family and says, I have a
Speaker 2: friend that's the dispatcher, and they talked about this girl
Speaker 2: having no fillings whatsoever, knowing that Debbie didn't have any fillings,
Speaker 2: and so that jarred Betty into the realization that it
Speaker 2: very well could be your daughter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that kind of plays into it as well.
Speaker 3: But and this is still kind of prevalence today even
Speaker 3: though Erie has Erie is not as large of a
Speaker 3: city as it used to be. That characterization of a
Speaker 3: small town where everybody knows somebody still exists as it
Speaker 3: did back then, So stuff like that would not have
Speaker 3: been out of the ordinary, of course. But you know,
Speaker 3: once she hears the details about the teeth and then
Speaker 3: there's a comment made about what kind of nail Paul
Speaker 3: she was wearing, right then that kind of you know,
Speaker 3: begins to take a turn from that moment on.
Speaker 2: Very interesting. While the family is trying to grieve August
Speaker 2: twenty second, a letter addressed to Betty arrives at their
Speaker 2: home with an Erie, Pennsylvania postmark, and the letter what
Speaker 2: does it say in the letter?
Speaker 3: So the letter, to the best of my knowledge, I
Speaker 3: believes look for the wolf and Deep's clothing. There is
Speaker 3: several letters that the family received that may be the
Speaker 3: wrong one. I may be mentioning, but the letters pretty
Speaker 3: much indicated or gave it just that they're not necessarily
Speaker 3: that they're looking in the wrong place, but that you know,
Speaker 3: they need to kind of look closer at who would
Speaker 3: be responsible for it.
Speaker 2: It's also very interesting the norm and her actual biological father,
Speaker 2: Dick Gamma, are both engaged in the search at first
Speaker 2: for Debbie and her body, but then later they are
Speaker 2: involved in making an illustration. For example, Dick made illustrations
Speaker 2: of the missing jewelry to aid the police in the search.
Speaker 2: And then we also talk about that this is a
Speaker 2: state police case jurisdiction. But Betty is Ferguson and her
Speaker 2: husband Noram are very frustrated and they look for help
Speaker 2: with a private investigator. Tell us about Dan Barber and
Speaker 2: his introduction to the Ferguson family.
Speaker 3: So Dan Barber is actually a native of the area.
Speaker 3: Pretty good. He's actually, you know, through this process, actually
Speaker 3: became a really good friend of mine in the process,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of going back to nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 3: You know, Dan Barber also had connections with Meadville growing up.
Speaker 3: He had, you know, a desire and background to do
Speaker 3: something in law enforcement. You know, at least that Heath
Speaker 3: States goes back to an early age. You know, he
Speaker 3: first enlisted it in the United States Army Military Police Corps,
Speaker 3: served briefly as a vice Section chief for the provosts.
Speaker 3: Marshall's office in the Paju Gun Province in the Republic
Speaker 3: of Korea. You know, he then returned stateside was stationed
Speaker 3: in Arizona. He then went to Military Police School in
Speaker 3: Fort Gordon, which located in Augusta, Georgia. This is about
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight. You know, it was there he
Speaker 3: underwent further training with the Criminal Investigation Division of Military
Speaker 3: known what we referred to as the CIDEA as a
Speaker 3: special agent. Now the SEA IDEA essentially is you know,
Speaker 3: pretty much the law enforcement arm of the United States
Speaker 3: Army at the time, and in nineteen sixty eight, you know,
Speaker 3: this is kind of I think this perfectly reflects on
Speaker 3: Dan's character and his ability to do such an excellent
Speaker 3: investigation with any of the cases he's done, including debies
Speaker 3: and over the years. Is he benefited from instructors who
Speaker 3: were some of the most experienced former law enforcement officers
Speaker 3: from around the country post World War Two. You know,
Speaker 3: one of his instructors, for example, was Thomas Joseph McGreevy,
Speaker 3: who was a World War Two veteran. You know, McGreevy
Speaker 3: had he was a veteran of the eighty second Airborne
Speaker 3: and then who was recruited into the CID in nineteen
Speaker 3: fifty two. Greevy actually would go on and was reassigned
Speaker 3: to the Malai massacre investigation that occurred. After his stint
Speaker 3: with the CID, Dan Barbara returned to Arizona and then
Speaker 3: was asked to become involved in several different other cases.
Speaker 3: Now before or after he became a special agent. Rather,
Speaker 3: he did serve with the United States Army Criminal Intelligence,
Speaker 3: Criminal Investigation, sorry, Commanding Castle, Germany. Now this is in
Speaker 3: the early nineteen seventies, before he would go on to
Speaker 3: become a senior intelligence analyst. He actually, you know, the
Speaker 3: Gamma case, just to kind of give a little bit
Speaker 3: of a footnote, would not be his first introduction to
Speaker 3: a homicide investigation. He had dealt with a prior homicide
Speaker 3: investigation in Germany involving a United States soldier. A little
Speaker 3: bit too much of a footnote to go into that,
Speaker 3: but he had extensive backgrounds and doing investigations, interrogation techniques,
Speaker 3: and like I said, he came from the cream of
Speaker 3: the crop of the CID investigators and his credential supported that.
Speaker 3: So essentially what happens is kind of getting a little
Speaker 3: bit off topic there. But you know, Dick Yamma Debbie's
Speaker 3: father calls Dan Barber introduces himself you know, says he
Speaker 3: wants to talk about his daughter's murder, which at that
Speaker 3: time had the case had completely fizzled out, they had
Speaker 3: no leads and whatnot. Dan, who was assisted by his
Speaker 3: partner Tom Martin, who was a veteran of the United
Speaker 3: States Marine Corps and also a good friend of his,
Speaker 3: visit with Dick get information about the case. Eventually Betty's
Speaker 3: mom and stepdad are brought in and you know they
Speaker 3: discussed the case as well. That's essentially I you know,
Speaker 3: Dan's introduction into the case.
Speaker 2: Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 2: The State Police are investigating and Dan Barber is conducting
Speaker 2: his own investigation. What is the first thing, significant thing
Speaker 2: in terms of this case breaking that Dan Barber discovers
Speaker 2: before we talk about Dan Barber trying to share information
Speaker 2: with the Pennsylvania State Police.
Speaker 3: Well, what essentially happens is in the coming It was
Speaker 3: pretty quick, I would say, you know, beginning of December
Speaker 3: until about mid December, Dan Barber had accumulated quite a
Speaker 3: bit of information. He had spoken with Debbie's close friends,
Speaker 3: including her good friend Robneil. He had accumulated enough information
Speaker 3: where he was kind of at least he could rule
Speaker 3: out certain individuals, and you know, by mid December, you know,
Speaker 3: he he had met with a gentleman by the name
Speaker 3: of Louis Penman at the Lawrence Park Police barracks. Essentially
Speaker 3: what had happened is they essentially just brushed him off
Speaker 3: and said they didn't need his assistance. They told him
Speaker 3: he was more than welcome to do a parallel investigation,
Speaker 3: but that they declined to share any information with him,
Speaker 3: and he went on his way. So I would say,
Speaker 3: what really kind of piques his interests is when Debbie's
Speaker 3: mother indicates that Debbie was not necessarily close, but she
Speaker 3: was on friendly terms with her English teacher, Raymond Payne
Speaker 3: and strong Vincent High School. There's a few other items
Speaker 3: of information that fall into place gradually that lead towards
Speaker 3: a suspicion that at least Raymond Payne should be looked at,
Speaker 3: you know, especially and this kind of goes back to
Speaker 3: some conversations he has with her friends and classmates that
Speaker 3: no Debbie fellow girls that were at high school with
Speaker 3: her on you know, doing extracurricular activities and such. So
Speaker 3: he sort of starts to lead the investigation that way,
Speaker 3: and even then when he brings this information to the
Speaker 3: state police, they still want nothing to do with him.
Speaker 3: They kind of schew him away and tell him to
Speaker 3: pretty much that they don't need his information.
Speaker 2: He discovers a person named John Lesqueris and also that
Speaker 2: he's a student at this same school as Debbie attended,
Speaker 2: but also that he had a relationship with the same
Speaker 2: teacher that you mentioned that Raymond Payne. It was also
Speaker 2: one of his own teachers as well. He finds out
Speaker 2: about John Lacaris, the relationship he has with his teacher
Speaker 2: in terms of living with him, and also his criminal
Speaker 2: record and that connection with his teacher.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Laskaris is a unique individual, and this is something
Speaker 3: that you know when las Karras is arrested for doing
Speaker 3: burglaries and petty thefts and stuff like that. Lascaris had
Speaker 3: a long prior criminal history of these types of crimes,
Speaker 3: so it wasn't really out of the ordinary when he
Speaker 3: was arrested. But when that information is brought into the
Speaker 3: public and Betty Ferguson, Debbie's mother, notices it, she brings
Speaker 3: it to Dan Barber's attention, and this is another kind
Speaker 3: of nail on the coffin for Dan, where he says, oh,
Speaker 3: Lascars not only knows of Debbie, but he lives with
Speaker 3: Ray Payne and with las Karis. Is Debbie did not
Speaker 3: have a real favorable opinion of him. Las Karis was
Speaker 3: reviewed kind of by his classmates as a bragger, I
Speaker 3: know at all, somebody who's real cocky. So Dan could
Speaker 3: at least kind of rule out and assimilate that, you know,
Speaker 3: this isn't something that would have been like, you know,
Speaker 3: a romantic trust or a boyfriend or anything like that.
Speaker 3: But Laskaris comes into play and you know, eventually gives
Speaker 3: Dan Barber some information which again sets him on what
Speaker 3: he believes is the right path towards Debbie's killer.
Speaker 2: In particular, he talks and Barber is very interested in
Speaker 2: the copper wire that was bound Debbie at this crime scene.
Speaker 2: So what does Lacaris have to say regarding that copper wire?
Speaker 3: Much the gist of the conversation when last Kari's question
Speaker 3: by Dan Barber about the wire is he states that
Speaker 3: he had burglarized a store in Erie, Pennsylvania on Casgate Street,
Speaker 3: that he had stolen the wire, that he had brought
Speaker 3: it back to Payne's house, and he makes a comment
Speaker 3: that Paine had told him to get rid of the wire.
Speaker 3: This was after Debbie had been located, and he had
Speaker 3: mentioned also that there was still a school wire on
Speaker 3: the property where Raymond Pain still resided. Now, the interesting
Speaker 3: thing with this is that the wire itself was a
Speaker 3: really really unique type of wire. It was a very
Speaker 3: thin type of welding wire. Not real, i would say,
Speaker 3: in excessive demand to where you could just go to
Speaker 3: any like, you know, if you were to go to
Speaker 3: Home Depot or Low's today. It wasn't a So that
Speaker 3: was kind of another clue that Dan Barber had as
Speaker 3: this wire which was used, which was found on Debbie's
Speaker 3: you know, her hands, her throat, and her ankles, was
Speaker 3: very unique any of the stores that had had burglaries
Speaker 3: around this month. He then decided, Okay, he's connected to
Speaker 3: Raymond Pain. Let's see if we can connect the wire
Speaker 3: that he stole and see if that matches what that's
Speaker 3: found on Debbie's body.
Speaker 2: Now, in terms of trying to get some confirmation about
Speaker 2: this wire, of course, they they go ahead and try
Speaker 2: to match this wire, try to find the origins of
Speaker 2: this copper wire. But at the same time, they try
Speaker 2: to get a search warrant for Payne's property to be
Speaker 2: able to search tell us about that.
Speaker 3: So at this point is this is what makes this
Speaker 3: story fascinating, is that by this point, keep in mind,
Speaker 3: the state police had still run out of essentially ran
Speaker 3: out of any leads. In fact, the state police had
Speaker 3: focused more so on Norm Ferguson as a suspect because
Speaker 3: Norm had walding Weier in his basement. He was known
Speaker 3: to tinker around with I mean ness, I mean essentially
Speaker 3: along the lines of stuff he worked with. So they
Speaker 3: believed that Norm was a suspect that couldn't be discounted.
Speaker 3: As far as Dan Barbara was concerned, he didn't believe
Speaker 3: Norm was involved at all. It was pretty clear from
Speaker 3: the onset. So with that being said, there wasn't necessarily
Speaker 3: I would say, a search warrant. But Dan Barber, now
Speaker 3: keep in mind, he's operating as a private investigator. Even
Speaker 3: back then in the nineteen seventies, you're operating under different
Speaker 3: circumstances compared to today. You know, you don't have the
Speaker 3: assistants in the state Police. You can't just go in
Speaker 3: and say here, I need to pick you know, we
Speaker 3: have a search warm signed by a judge X y Z.
Speaker 3: We need this item of information. So originally what had happened,
Speaker 3: you see, went out to the property next to where
Speaker 3: Raymond Pain lived, which is where his brother Ed lived,
Speaker 3: and essentially spoke with his brother about the case. Or
Speaker 3: essentially what he did is he used the ruse that
Speaker 3: he was working in regards to individuals who had lost
Speaker 3: property that was stolen by Lascaris. He didn't mention that
Speaker 3: he was looking into his brother Raymond for Debbie's case,
Speaker 3: but he brings up that last Charis mentioned this type
Speaker 3: of wire. You know, by then Barbara had accumulated some
Speaker 3: samples from some of the plumbing and electrical stores where
Speaker 3: they had this wire. And he shows up to Ed
Speaker 3: Payne and there's a specific type of wire that Ed
Speaker 3: picks out as being what he recalls as being the wire.
Speaker 3: Not only that, but he tells Dan Barbara, hey, I
Speaker 3: still have this wire in my barn, and he recalls
Speaker 3: also seeing his brother have it in his possession in
Speaker 3: August eighteen seventy five. So they go into the barn
Speaker 3: and look for it, and sure enough, the wire is
Speaker 3: no longer there. They don't know where it is, so
Speaker 3: that poses a little bit of a problem. And then
Speaker 3: you know, Dan Barbara runs into another issue, which after
Speaker 3: that he essentially gets to cease and desists from Raymond
Speaker 3: Pay's atturning, telling him to leave not only Raymond pain alone,
Speaker 3: but to leave Haynes family alone as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he says, regardless of your private investigative status,
Speaker 2: he says, you're just a private citizen. I can't share
Speaker 2: anything with you. I'm not going to take your information
Speaker 2: right And.
Speaker 3: That was the State Police once he really started to
Speaker 3: gain traction and obtain all this information and present this
Speaker 3: to them in March of nineteen seventy five. And look,
Speaker 3: this isn't you know, this book wasn't you know, at
Speaker 3: least the way that it's written is not meant to
Speaker 3: chastiser be a hit piece against the State Police. But
Speaker 3: but it's it's it's true the state that they dropped
Speaker 3: the ball. There's some numerous things, you know, we don't
Speaker 3: want to spoil everything with the book, but there was
Speaker 3: numerous instances in their investigation where they came close, but
Speaker 3: they were, you know, kind of narrow minded on who
Speaker 3: they felt was responsible. And you know, Dan barbera being
Speaker 3: you know, an experienced investigator and his own right was
Speaker 3: trying to steer them in the right direction and they
Speaker 3: refuse to get help. Eventually he would get that help
Speaker 3: down the road, but unfortunately it took quite some time.
Speaker 2: In Dan Barber's investigation, along with his partner Tom Martin,
Speaker 2: he found out Raymond Pain's extensive and very very interesting
Speaker 2: criminal record. You talk about in the nineteen fifties, he
Speaker 2: stabbed and attempted to rape a woman. Tell us about
Speaker 2: some of the criminal record that he discovered about Raymond Pain.
Speaker 3: So Ray Pain is really, I would say, a really
Speaker 3: interesting character. What would essentially happen at least you know
Speaker 3: that we have that we know about Pain. Is one
Speaker 3: thing to keep.
Speaker 4: In mind is we don't know everything about Pain's life,
Speaker 4: but what can be surmised is, of course, at least
Speaker 4: when he was you know, He's born in nineteen thirty
Speaker 4: seven in imperiod Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: He was the oldest of two sons to teachers. The
Speaker 3: family eventually relocated the Eerie. His father, Jeffrey Payne, is
Speaker 3: actually still today a well respected teacher. I mean he
Speaker 3: sens passed away, but Raymond Payne's mother and father are
Speaker 3: both still former respected teachers, the family themselves still held
Speaker 3: in high regard. So you know, we see in Payne's
Speaker 3: early life, you know, he gets involved in certain things,
Speaker 3: you know, the cup Scouts and boy Scouts. It's not
Speaker 3: until he's in his early teens, around the age of thirteen,
Speaker 3: that he starts to engage various experiments and sexual acts
Speaker 3: including bondage and so on and so forth. And you know,
Speaker 3: he starts to gain this unusual appetite with sexual tendencies
Speaker 3: that we would consider today abnormal or not not right.
Speaker 3: So what happens essentially is, you know, up until his
Speaker 3: graduation from high school in nineteen sixty six, he joins
Speaker 3: the United States Navy. We know he gets stationed in Alexandria,
Speaker 3: Virginia for a short time, He gets married, eventually gets
Speaker 3: an honorable discharge, returns back to Erie. He's employed briefly
Speaker 3: as a loan collector. But soon, you know, his violent
Speaker 3: sexual fantasies that would continue to plague him kind of
Speaker 3: metamorphosize into this incident in nineteen fifty eight with an
Speaker 3: attempted rape and stabbing of a young woman in south
Speaker 3: of Erie. What essentially happens with that, it's just a
Speaker 3: long list of instances where there is an individual that
Speaker 3: has a clear and present danger to society, specifically to women,
Speaker 3: young females, you know, children. We get sit here, probably
Speaker 3: for hours and discuss his criminal background, but it just
Speaker 3: starts a domino effect of one thing after the other
Speaker 3: of where the criminal justice system failed properly take care
Speaker 3: of a criminal like Raymond Pain, who is the exact
Speaker 3: type of person it was meant to be put in
Speaker 3: place to protect the general public.
Speaker 2: From Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages along with the investigation regarding his criminal record.
Speaker 2: What they do find out is how on earth he
Speaker 2: is dismissed for various things like misconduct from other school
Speaker 2: districts and yet doesn't seem to be vetted for his
Speaker 2: criminal record, but also for his record as a teacher
Speaker 2: at these districts.
Speaker 3: And this is this is something that Dan Barber still
Speaker 3: to this day coins as a fact. Is what with
Speaker 3: school districts? And this is another reason for writing that
Speaker 3: I that I wrote this book is this type of
Speaker 3: crime is not unusual throughout America. This has happened to
Speaker 3: numerous students where their teachers have committed horrible crimes against
Speaker 3: I mean, it still happens. But what happens is is,
Speaker 3: you know, raym Pain and eventually became a teacher. He
Speaker 3: worked originally in the Eurea School District for a little
Speaker 3: bit of time and then went to the Gerard School district.
Speaker 3: There's clear and present evidence that we have that he
Speaker 3: was improper with his students. There is numerous examples of
Speaker 3: that throughout the years. But instead of properly handling the
Speaker 3: situation reporting it to the authorities, what happened is they
Speaker 3: did what Dan Barbara calls passing the trash, rather than
Speaker 3: take accountability for his actions and properly address it. You know,
Speaker 3: they're so easy to dismiss him, write him a letter
Speaker 3: of recommendation, and then let it be somebody else's problem.
Speaker 3: And it's a reoccurrence in society that we still see today.
Speaker 3: And this is something that would also kind of rear
Speaker 3: its ugly head later on in this case, long after
Speaker 3: you know, court cases and convictions that still stand out.
Speaker 2: You write about that Don Barber or Don barbera pardon
Speaker 2: me goes to eventually the assistant district Attorney, Don Lewis
Speaker 2: at Don Lewis is much more receptive, tell us about
Speaker 2: this meeting and what is accomplished with this meeting.
Speaker 3: So so Don Lewis, by this time the assistant District
Speaker 3: Attorney for Crawford County, which is where Debbie's body was found.
Speaker 3: Don Lewis had a prior relationship with Dan Barber. Dan
Speaker 3: had worked on some cases in Crawford County, so Don
Speaker 3: knew him. He knew his background, he knew his investigative
Speaker 3: techniques and skills, knew that Dan was as good as
Speaker 3: his word and that he was a solid guy. So
Speaker 3: Dan comes in and he pretty much brings this, brings
Speaker 3: all his evidence with him. He lays it out in
Speaker 3: front of Don Lewis and says, look, here's all the
Speaker 3: evidence I have. Here's who I believe it points to
Speaker 3: is being responsible for Debbie's murder. State police will not listen.
Speaker 3: So after that discussion, Don Lewis says, essentially says that
Speaker 3: you know, he'll he'll see what he can do to
Speaker 3: assist him, and you know, he becomes really the driving
Speaker 3: force and kind of putting a wedge into the state
Speaker 3: police to say, hey, I had a meeting with Dan Barber.
Speaker 3: His stuff seems pretty serious. You need to check it out.
Speaker 3: And then that's when a working relationship begins with you know,
Speaker 3: Detective John Loftus with the State Police, who had been
Speaker 3: heading the investigation, who was assisted by John Martin at
Speaker 3: the State Police. And you know, finally, finally, you know
Speaker 3: John Loftus, who's who you know, I think is also
Speaker 3: another unsung hero. I mean, he was a decent cop
Speaker 3: as well. He listens to Dan's evidence and he too
Speaker 3: gets on on Dan's side and says, Okay, I see
Speaker 3: where you're going with all this evidence. This guy does
Speaker 3: seem pretty good for it. Let's see what else we
Speaker 3: can do. At that point, you know, once you finally
Speaker 3: get the State Police to look into it, you know,
Speaker 3: as far as Dan Barbera's there's nothing Dan Barber's concerned.
Speaker 3: There's nothing further he could do, you know. The State
Speaker 3: Police actually then by that spring into the summer, began
Speaker 3: to finally start looking at Raymond Payne as a serious suspect.
Speaker 2: You say, the case takes a shocking turn when Raymond
Speaker 2: Payne met was his attorney in Don Lewis's office in
Speaker 2: early October. What is this meeting all about?
Speaker 3: So this meeting occurs after Pain's arrest and essentially what
Speaker 3: happens is through Pain's attorney, he states that he wants
Speaker 3: to confess, and the idea, the gist of it is
Speaker 3: that if he confesses, if he cooperates that that there
Speaker 3: could be a potential to try to get a lesser
Speaker 3: term or a lesser sentence. The general way of thinking
Speaker 3: at least is that, you know, he also gives the
Speaker 3: He also gives what is now widely believed as a
Speaker 3: confession that is really not trustworthy at all. He gives
Speaker 3: a confession to Don Lewis, you know, in a price
Speaker 3: of his attorney, where he supposedly states what happened to Debbie,
Speaker 3: that she died in Erie County, at Crawford County where
Speaker 3: her body was found. Now, keep in mind, because her
Speaker 3: body was found in Crawford County, it was Crawford County's
Speaker 3: case to prosecute, not Erie County, right, So that also
Speaker 3: kind of sets up a benchmark, a little bit of
Speaker 3: a legal tussle as to which county would handle the case.
Speaker 3: Don Lewis was prepared to handle it for Crawford County
Speaker 3: if he had to. But essentially the key with that
Speaker 3: story is that confession points the investigation as pointing back
Speaker 3: up to Erie, Pennsylvania, with the District Attorney's office then
Speaker 3: wondering if they need to step in and handle to
Speaker 3: handle the case from that point. I won't go into
Speaker 3: too much detail about Payne's confession, but you know, he
Speaker 3: goes into he's at least a little bit graphic, essentially
Speaker 3: states that he took Debbie to a park in the
Speaker 3: Borough water for Pennsylvania, that he tied her up, that
Speaker 3: he was going to take some photographs. He went back
Speaker 3: to his his vehicle to get some marijuana and came back.
Speaker 3: She was dead. She has supposedly strangled herself by accident.
Speaker 3: Why is in the face of everything forensic evidence and
Speaker 3: essentially you know, again it's kind of an It's what
Speaker 3: offenders do, right, you know, they attacked the character. I
Speaker 3: didn't do this, she did this. Yeah, So it's a
Speaker 3: typical blame game that we see with typical offenders. Were
Speaker 3: what they do is they minimize their own actions for
Speaker 3: their crimes, and they placed it on the victim. And
Speaker 3: that's essentially what the statement amounted to.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say it's much more when you depict
Speaker 2: this murder as a accident, which is what he basically
Speaker 2: says he accidentally killed her. That wasn't his intention. The
Speaker 2: photos were consensual. But he also talks about a drug
Speaker 2: he calls downs and metro. I can't remember the term,
Speaker 2: but this drug that he said that she found in
Speaker 2: his glove compartment and then asked to do so. So
Speaker 2: again a ludicrous story, far more than just downplaying his involvement.
Speaker 3: Yeah so, and it really And the thing is is
Speaker 3: the one thing that we learn about Raymond Pain, especially
Speaker 3: with with this story, and at least in generalize an individual,
Speaker 3: is Pain is all about control. He's all about manipulation
Speaker 3: as well. And that kind of shows within the confession
Speaker 3: because he wants to steer it in a direction where
Speaker 3: he says, hey, this was not intentional. I did not
Speaker 3: set out to do this. It was an accident. You know,
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's all kind of self serving, because
Speaker 3: if it's an accident, then guess what, then you're looking
Speaker 3: at something maybe more along lines of you know, involuntary
Speaker 3: manslaughter or lesser charge. And then you get out, right,
Speaker 3: it's not a felony. You're not looking at first or
Speaker 3: second degree murder, right, and you know, so it kind
Speaker 3: of hinges on, Well, that's going to be his defense.
Speaker 3: You know, usually with with these types of criminal defenses
Speaker 3: like that, it's like, well it's either insanity or hey,
Speaker 3: it was an accident or self defense, and that's kind
Speaker 3: of initially kind of what he's gearing towards.
Speaker 2: He also adamantly says he denies having sex with Debbi,
Speaker 2: but there is seminal fluid that was found on the
Speaker 2: body at the crime scene.
Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, there were swaps taken from the autopsy and
Speaker 3: that did detect seminal fluid, which again it goes against
Speaker 3: the evidence that we have in the case. But again
Speaker 3: the thing is is also with all this evidence in
Speaker 3: the case, and this is what really has kind of
Speaker 3: compounded the story over the years, is evidence of that
Speaker 3: that he had potentially raped or assaulted Debbie somehow has
Speaker 3: morph sized into this rumor that still permeates, you know,
Speaker 3: around the city of very that Debbie was promiscuous, that
Speaker 3: Debbie ran around, that Debbie did, you know, with all
Speaker 3: kinds of boys in That further from the truth, and
Speaker 3: it's important to point that out because it's nothing more
Speaker 3: than a character association against a young girl who, from
Speaker 3: what we know from her best friends, was not really
Speaker 3: into boys. She was not into dating. She was just
Speaker 3: into loving life, spending time with her friends and having
Speaker 3: a good time. There's no evidence that Debbie was promiscuous
Speaker 3: at the time, which you know, essentially with that DNA
Speaker 3: evidence on her body. There's only two ways you're gonna
Speaker 3: leave it, Okay. You're gonna leave it either through a
Speaker 3: consensual encounter or through a criminal encounter. And if there
Speaker 3: was a criminal encounter, especially with a minor, that's somewhat
Speaker 3: of an issue, okay. And the one thing we also
Speaker 3: have to think about with that as well is, you know,
Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies and even today, individuals who murder children, rape,
Speaker 3: sexually assault children. I'm pretty sure Pain's also thinking if
Speaker 3: I go to prison, it's not gonna end well for me.
Speaker 2: Right. What he does do in this confession is that
Speaker 2: he does state that there are some jewelry and other
Speaker 2: items of Debbie's pertinent to this case that are stashed
Speaker 2: at his property. So they go with a search warrant
Speaker 2: and to confirm parts of his story. Anyway, these items
Speaker 2: are found on this property, correct, right.
Speaker 3: And it's probably one of the it's probably one of
Speaker 3: the very few minimal ideas we have from Raymond Payne's
Speaker 3: statement that actually is corroborated by factual evidence. It's probably
Speaker 3: one of the few things, if any of the only
Speaker 3: things if his statement, that are actually true where he
Speaker 3: says it, items are here. If you go there and
Speaker 3: you find him where you dig them up, I know
Speaker 3: that he had placed them or her jewelry in the well.
Speaker 3: That's exactly where police founder or found the inform found
Speaker 3: that he said there were cement blocks that he originally
Speaker 3: tied her body down in a pond on his property.
Speaker 3: They found a cement blocks with wires still attached, the
Speaker 3: same molding wire that was found on her body. Her
Speaker 3: shoes were secreted in the woods. They found those two.
Speaker 3: So at least for that part where he says, hey,
Speaker 3: you can find us there, I'm telling the truth. He
Speaker 3: was truthful about it because they did locate it.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages. Now there is this issue, and you had
Speaker 2: mentioned it, the idea that it's there's a hearing, a
Speaker 2: separate hearing on whether this will be a third, second
Speaker 2: or first degree murder. So the third degree with the
Speaker 2: threat of the third degree, is that it's only ten
Speaker 2: to twenty years sentence as opposed to a second or
Speaker 2: a first degree which is an automatic life sentence with
Speaker 2: no parole. Tell us about Mike Paul Masano and Shad
Speaker 2: Connolly and they're getting ready to prosecute Raymond Pain.
Speaker 3: So so Mike Palmazano and then Shad Connolly. Palmazano actually
Speaker 3: he passed away a few weeks go, unfortunately, but Mike
Speaker 3: Palmisano was a seasoned lawyer here in Erie. He was
Speaker 3: a well respected, well known prosecutor here in the District
Speaker 3: Attorney's office, widely respected by many, and he still is
Speaker 3: to this day. Him and Shad Conley. You know, Conley
Speaker 3: also went on to become a judge later on, he
Speaker 3: had another respected prosecutor. So what they're looking at essentially is,
Speaker 3: you know, after the case is then remitted back to
Speaker 3: the to Erie County because that's where according to pain
Speaker 3: statement that he died, you know, pal Masano takes over
Speaker 3: the case. He's assisted by Conley on the case, and
Speaker 3: their plan is essentially tryumph for first degree, first degree murder.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of rumors about the time that they're
Speaker 3: going to try to go for the death penalty. Palmizano
Speaker 3: kind of hinges back and forth on on whether they
Speaker 3: should pursue the death penalty and whatnot. But there their
Speaker 3: kind of approach, I would say, at least in this case,
Speaker 3: is that the evidence they have suggests that pretty much.
Speaker 3: You know, it wouldn't say it's a solid case, but
Speaker 3: it's it's largely circumstantial. And you know, and this kind
Speaker 3: of goes back to some of the ethics that Dan
Speaker 3: Barber having he did his investigation, where he believes, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, even in the world of forensic technology today,
Speaker 3: even back in the seventies, some of the best evidence
Speaker 3: you could have as it was, you know, circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 3: But there were concerns because the fact of the matter
Speaker 3: is is Pain says it was an accident. I know that.
Speaker 3: You know, they were also looking at the possibility of
Speaker 3: that Sarah wacked, you know, the famous pathologist from outside Pittsburgh. Yes,
Speaker 3: Payn's attorney was looking at having him come on for
Speaker 3: the defense. There was discussions about that. And you know,
Speaker 3: sure Pain had this these items from Debi, but there
Speaker 3: was nothing that they could specifically tie him to her
Speaker 3: murder as happening. You know, there's no blood, you know,
Speaker 3: It's not like they could do the DNA tests and
Speaker 3: and say, oh, well this is your DNA you did
Speaker 3: it or not. So you know, it kind of goes
Speaker 3: back to the circumstantial evidence, and that kind of bleeds
Speaker 3: into the worries. You know, you're always going to have
Speaker 3: this worry as a prosecutor. You know, a case can
Speaker 3: go anyway. You know, you know, a drake can hear
Speaker 3: all the evidence and say hey, we don't have you know,
Speaker 3: enough to convict or they're going to quit, but you
Speaker 3: also have you also couldn't ignore Pain's past history of
Speaker 3: being able to pretty much escape from prior convictions for crimes.
Speaker 3: So those were on the forefront of their of their mind.
Speaker 3: Now what essentially changes this is they get a they
Speaker 3: get a notification I believe it was in February of
Speaker 3: that year before they had tried the case, essentially, and
Speaker 3: they get a letter from a gentleman by the name
Speaker 3: of Anthony Lee Evans who claims, hey, I was in
Speaker 3: the cell next to Pain Dearie County Jail. He admitted
Speaker 3: to sexually assaulting Debbie and killing her, and that kind
Speaker 3: of they believe, well, this will add another you know,
Speaker 3: nail in the coffin or a clog and a wheel,
Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it. So they take Evans's
Speaker 3: statement and he's listed as a witness for this upcoming trial.
Speaker 3: But of course, as a reader will find out, then
Speaker 3: as they prepare to go read the trial, it takes
Speaker 3: another sharp turn and another surprising turn.
Speaker 2: You write all along this in this book, and it's
Speaker 2: an important thread, if not a theme of this book
Speaker 2: is how Betty and less so her entire family, including
Speaker 2: Norm and Dick Gamma, Wi's father, all of these people
Speaker 2: dealing with grief, dealing with the anger, the frustration, and
Speaker 2: of course hoping that this conviction, with a conviction, that
Speaker 2: they'll have a sense of p and relief from this
Speaker 2: constant barrage of these thoughts and this anger and frustration.
Speaker 3: And that's what attracted me to the story. And I
Speaker 3: explain this to Debbie's sister, is we didn't really you know,
Speaker 3: we as me and and my editor in the publishing
Speaker 3: team at History Press, who were just fantastic. The way
Speaker 3: we wanted to approach it was we wanted to tell
Speaker 3: Debbie's story, where you know, we set the record straight
Speaker 3: on that, but we also wanted to tell Betty's story,
Speaker 3: what her and her family went to was abhorrent. No
Speaker 3: family should ever have to go through it. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's one of the different you know, I would say
Speaker 3: tentacles of crime of people that you know, if somebody
Speaker 3: is murdered, they're not the only victim. It spread to
Speaker 3: the family. We see that all the time in many cases.
Speaker 3: And what really was prominent and stood out, and Betty
Speaker 3: later wrote about this was nobody was there to help her.
Speaker 3: Nobody was there to relate, Nobody understood how she felt.
Speaker 3: She couldn't go to talk to anybody. Granted to say,
Speaker 3: have resources in counseling and support groups that are there
Speaker 3: to help feelings with that, But even in the mid nineties,
Speaker 3: you know, this is still stuff that you know, at
Speaker 3: least you know cognitively, we as a society were not
Speaker 3: formed on So you have a bunch of people who
Speaker 3: are injured mentally moving along hoping and praying that you get,
Speaker 3: you know, the justice that you want for your murdered child.
Speaker 3: And it's a very difficult story. And like you said,
Speaker 3: it is a theme that's woven throughout the story. You know,
Speaker 3: the grief never goes away, it just it becomes I
Speaker 3: would say, not easier to deal with, but easier for
Speaker 3: you to accept and with at least Debie's family, many
Speaker 3: of them didn't go on the same path that her
Speaker 3: her mother did, which was you know, which is a
Speaker 3: good portion of the second part of the book, which
Speaker 3: is about forgiveness. And that was an important story to tell,
Speaker 3: because that is another facet, at least from my experience
Speaker 3: in the past, in knowing some case, isn't it like this?
Speaker 3: Families can use every Families should be able to have
Speaker 3: access to every kind of support possible in situations like this,
Speaker 3: and she kind of paved the way to make that possible,
Speaker 3: at least here in Erie County. That still benefits people today.
Speaker 2: Yes, you talk about this extraordinary trial, and of course
Speaker 2: the jail house snitch testifies, and it's dubious whether the
Speaker 2: jury really believes them completely. However, the conviction July eighteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven is premeditated murder. There seems to be
Speaker 2: no doubt from the judges' comments. First degree murder, life
Speaker 2: sentence with no possibility of parole. You say, right after,
Speaker 2: though attorney Ambrose was working to get an appeal for
Speaker 2: the first degree murder conviction, focusing on that the first
Speaker 2: degree murder conviction. And you say that Dan Barber just
Speaker 2: continued his investigation of Raymond Pain.
Speaker 3: He did once the state police had taken over the case.
Speaker 3: Dan barbera at that vointe said what he had set
Speaker 3: out to do, the evidence who he thought was responsible.
Speaker 3: He thought he had accumulated and done what he was
Speaker 3: hired by the family to do, so he was working
Speaker 3: on other cases. Now there is also Dan kind of
Speaker 3: re enters the fold because when you know, the family
Speaker 3: learns about, you know, the many different instances where Pain
Speaker 3: could have been held accountable and the passing of the trash,
Speaker 3: you know, from one one job to the next, and
Speaker 3: nobody holding him accountable for those actions. He then decides
Speaker 3: to pursue a civil suit. Barbara is brought on after
Speaker 3: he recommends an attorney who he had known from his
Speaker 3: military days, and he's asked to continue his investigation, which
Speaker 3: stends into Raymond Payne's pass even further. And you know,
Speaker 3: we learned quite a lot from that information, and it
Speaker 3: really shows just how again, and this is something that
Speaker 3: can't be stressed enough. Everybody in the criminal justice system
Speaker 3: not only failed Debbie, but they failed the general public
Speaker 3: withholding Pain accountable, and it's just one thing after the
Speaker 3: other where it just kind of cements one thing after
Speaker 3: the other where it seemed for a while, at least
Speaker 3: for Betty Ferguson and her family, that nobody wanted to
Speaker 3: take any accountability. And I think that was a big
Speaker 3: part of it too, is admit that you were wrong.
Speaker 3: Admit that you know this man, he was not a
Speaker 3: decent individual and should have been held accountable. Wasn't you right?
Speaker 2: That extraordinary transformation happens in the beginning from her son
Speaker 2: who returns from art school and talks to Betty and
Speaker 2: talks about just her dark mood overall, and that she
Speaker 2: wasn't there for them as as her children, but also
Speaker 2: that she just wasn't herself, She was unhappy, and that
Speaker 2: she had to do something and it was up to
Speaker 2: her to do something. That led to her mind opening.
Speaker 2: She was offered a vacation, and on that vacation from
Speaker 2: somebody that she was getting treatment, she came to the
Speaker 2: conclusion that the only way to change the way she
Speaker 2: felt every single day was to forgive Raymond pain. What
Speaker 2: did she do in that pursuit?
Speaker 3: So in that pursuit Eventually what happens is that he
Speaker 3: comes to the realization that pain's in jail where he belongs.
Speaker 3: He's not going you know, the anger and the hatred
Speaker 3: is still there. And this also kind of explores the
Speaker 3: realm of how it affected Deadly's siblings, Debbie's siblings as well.
Speaker 3: So it was my decision not to stretch too far
Speaker 3: into that because that's not it's not my story to
Speaker 3: tell their story. I was focused on telling Debbie's story
Speaker 3: and Betty's and also that of Dan Barber. So it
Speaker 3: really took a point in turn where Betty was confronted
Speaker 3: with a certain truth that she didn't want to realize,
Speaker 3: and that she was an angry person. And that was
Speaker 3: one of that I think the amazing things about her personality.
Speaker 3: If you knew Betty, I had met her a few
Speaker 3: times years, years and years ago. If you knew Betty,
Speaker 3: you know she was at least upfront and honest with you,
Speaker 3: especially when she would talk about Debbie's death and how
Speaker 3: it affect her. He was upfront and honest that she
Speaker 3: wasn't a perfect mother. You know, none of us are
Speaker 3: perfect parents, and that resonates, I think with a lot
Speaker 3: of people. Is that we can relate with her that Hey, look,
Speaker 3: I'm not perfect. You know I had you know. She
Speaker 3: goes on to say, I had hate in my heart,
Speaker 3: and you know I didn't, you know, even writing this,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you right now, I didn't agree with everything
Speaker 3: she said, but I can understand where she was coming from.
Speaker 3: I personally have never been in her shoes, and I
Speaker 3: hope I never have to be with that type of situation.
Speaker 3: But she did, and she set out to do what
Speaker 3: was best for her that could heal her with Debbie's murder.
Speaker 3: And that's the most important thing to focus on. It
Speaker 3: is grief comes in many different stages and phases. Even
Speaker 3: as you learn with Debbie's father, he took a different
Speaker 3: approach as well. Each each person's different. You know, it
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you have to forget somebody. There's different
Speaker 3: ways that you can approach it. And it all kind
Speaker 3: of comes back to what I believe is an outlet
Speaker 3: for other families who, unfortunately more often not have to
Speaker 3: go through the same thing.
Speaker 2: You talk about. You write about this extraordinary and very
Speaker 2: moviesque and very powerful scene you write about where Betty
Speaker 2: goes to the prison and meets Raymond pain.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it in a lot of that really comes from
Speaker 3: Betty herself writing about what it was like their conversations
Speaker 3: they had, and it's a little jarring at first. It'd
Speaker 3: probably be a little bit of jarring at first for
Speaker 3: the for the reader, because we sit here and we think,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this is a man that took your
Speaker 3: daughter away. This is an individual that murdered your daughter.
Speaker 3: But you have to kind of look at it from
Speaker 3: the outside looking in. You know, how is this, you know,
Speaker 3: how is what she doing right now? How is this
Speaker 3: going to help Betty in the book? And it sets
Speaker 3: the book up for the third act in regards to
Speaker 3: that as to how the case ends, because that even
Speaker 3: though we may not agree with what she did and
Speaker 3: how she made amends with Raymond Payne, it healed her
Speaker 3: for her own specific reasons, but it also set up,
Speaker 3: in effect, the rest of how the rest of her
Speaker 3: life would be. So, you know, we don't want to
Speaker 3: go into too much detail about it because it would
Speaker 3: tell the book. But you know, it was really kind
Speaker 3: of a one of those you know, and you described
Speaker 3: it perfectly. It's kind of movie esque when we think
Speaker 3: about it, and it is true. When I was reading
Speaker 3: about her account of it and how you know what
Speaker 3: they discussed about. But there's always the thing, and readers
Speaker 3: will realize that throughout the book that there's a common
Speaker 3: theme and it's just as involved in that moment as
Speaker 3: the rest.
Speaker 2: Of the book, that Jesus has an opportunity to stop
Speaker 2: to hear these messages. Now, we won't go into exactly
Speaker 2: what was said at this meeting, but when Betty came
Speaker 2: home and we're talking about she comes home and she
Speaker 2: talks to Norm, and Norm visibly sees the change in her.
Speaker 2: She's smiling for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 2: Seems like she's freeing. She tells of this liberating experience.
Speaker 2: What does Norm decide to do, because you write that
Speaker 2: at one point, not that much before this date, he
Speaker 2: was aiming a three point fifty seven revolver at Raymond
Speaker 2: Payne standing on the ladder. He was ready to shoot
Speaker 2: this man. Tell us about what his decision is.
Speaker 3: So kind of backtracking a little bit without going too
Speaker 3: much into it. When when when Betty Ferguson and and
Speaker 3: her husband Norm were told by Dan Barber that he
Speaker 3: believed ray Payne killed Debbie, That's kind of where the
Speaker 3: rage had originally set in at the time, and and
Speaker 3: this was and and Betty spoke about this recently. There's
Speaker 3: Nett there's a series of Lake Erie Murderers on Hulu
Speaker 3: which you can watch, which talks about the case. He
Speaker 3: had decided one day that he would go out to
Speaker 3: ray Payne's property and he would he would shoot and
Speaker 3: kill him. And I think for Norm it was a
Speaker 3: little bit different because Norm cared about Debbie. Norm cared
Speaker 3: about her siblings, and and and Betty and and and
Speaker 3: by all accounts, he was an excellent stepfather. You know,
Speaker 3: he had kids of his own, two who well respected
Speaker 3: him and still love him. But also Raymond Payne was
Speaker 3: a former classmate and friend of his from high school. Well,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say they were at least acquaintances. So for Norm,
Speaker 3: I think it, you know, and there's other reasons too,
Speaker 3: we won't go into, but there's there's a lot of
Speaker 3: factors in play with that where when Betty originally set
Speaker 3: out on this journey forgiveness, Norm didn't want a part
Speaker 3: of it. He would help her get there, but he
Speaker 3: wouldn't see it through himself because he felt different, which
Speaker 3: again it kind of experiences this journey of grief that
Speaker 3: that families go through, that everybody is different with how
Speaker 3: they handle it. What happens to Betty, I think just
Speaker 3: kind of caught on like wildfire. And eventually Norm came
Speaker 3: to the realization that maybe he too could set out
Speaker 3: on his own journey because Betty, Norm had had gone
Speaker 3: through a lot of difficulties with the murderer. It nearly
Speaker 3: ruined their marriage. And you know, I mean at one
Speaker 3: point was almost accused of murdering her, Debbie that is,
Speaker 3: and you know, this journey of forgiveness, this, you know,
Speaker 3: the healing in her heart. As Betty go on to say,
Speaker 3: spreads to Norman, he engages you know, with pain, to
Speaker 3: which your reader will find out. But of course not
Speaker 3: everybody's happy about all that either.
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right that Debbie's father, Dick Gamma, is outraged
Speaker 2: and not on.
Speaker 3: Board at all. Yeah, he was. Dick handled it differently.
Speaker 3: Dick Gamma handled it differently than Betty did. And again
Speaker 3: not to be the dead horse, but it kind of
Speaker 3: goes on that that seems everybody handles their grief and
Speaker 3: healing differently. He essentially told her he wanted no part
Speaker 3: of part of it, and I from that moment on
Speaker 3: I Never Spoke again.
Speaker 2: You write about part of the journey that Betty undergoes
Speaker 2: is that she gets recognized for her abilities and so
Speaker 2: she works as a con uncler and she gets involved
Speaker 2: with victims of homicide survivors, right Yeah, And.
Speaker 3: Once she started doing that, I think it provided a conduit,
Speaker 3: an outlet rather for her to share her story in
Speaker 3: what she went through. And again it you know, she
Speaker 3: got a lot of recognition, she got a lot of
Speaker 3: accolades for it, and it was just a reminder also
Speaker 3: that you know, she's able to now provide healing to
Speaker 3: other families that went through what she had to that
Speaker 3: she didn't have access to when Debbie died. And you know,
Speaker 3: it really is something that I think is powerful in itself,
Speaker 3: and it really speaks to the character of Betty and
Speaker 3: what she went through. Like I said, we all don't
Speaker 3: have to agree with with how she went through things,
Speaker 3: but she did what she needed to do to heal herself,
Speaker 3: not only for her, but for Debbie as well, as
Speaker 3: she says, And you know, she went on to counsel
Speaker 3: so many different families and so many victims of crimes
Speaker 3: here in Eerie that it really is one of those things.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think you can give enough recognition
Speaker 3: for somebody who does that in our community, especially in
Speaker 3: a day when certain services for victims of abuse, families
Speaker 3: of homicide, or seeing you know, budget cuts and anything.
Speaker 3: So it really is a prevalent story, at least in
Speaker 3: those regards.
Speaker 2: You talk about Betty and her journey to move on
Speaker 2: and live her life again. But meanwhile, Raymond Painne is
Speaker 2: continuing via his lawyers to appeal the sentence. Eventually, on
Speaker 2: the third appeal he makes some ground tell us about
Speaker 2: this what his attorneys would like to happen and why.
Speaker 3: So the crux of all this was essentially, you know,
Speaker 3: Raymond pain goes through the appeals process in the argument
Speaker 3: that he's raising is that he was not responsible for
Speaker 3: Debbie's sexual assault, which was originally tied in with the case, right,
Speaker 3: and that his DNA was not on the body, and therefore,
Speaker 3: because it's not his DNA that he should be re sentenced,
Speaker 3: and if he was resentenced to a lower degree to
Speaker 3: be eligible for a release. And you know, essentially what
Speaker 3: happens is eventually in a decision that really I kind
Speaker 3: of I think stunned everybody you know, I was stunned
Speaker 3: when I heard it. Is. In April twenty nineteen, the
Speaker 3: Pennslvania Superior Court overturned his first first degree murder conviction
Speaker 3: in life sentence. It was a split decision they had
Speaker 3: for the panel, but the panel argued the DNA results
Speaker 3: could have resulted in a different outcome during his original
Speaker 3: degree at guilt hearing. But they didn't necessarily come out
Speaker 3: and say that pain was innocent, you know, they stopped
Speaker 3: short of it. What the decision did is it allowed
Speaker 3: the possibility of a resentence for a lesser degree of murder,
Speaker 3: like I said, with the possibility of release. You know,
Speaker 3: when this happened, of course, the person the News went
Speaker 3: to immediately was Betty Ferguson, and keeping with her journey
Speaker 3: of forgiveness, she had said, I go along with the law.
Speaker 3: You know, what the law says is what I agree with.
Speaker 3: So you know at that point what happens is with
Speaker 3: his first degree murder conviction overturned, Raymond Payne is remanded
Speaker 3: back to Erie County. He is or his case is
Speaker 3: remanded back to Erie County. He remains incarcerated at Sci.
Speaker 3: Laurel Hill. Now this time, you know, this is also
Speaker 3: fascinating because we're talking twenty nineteen. You know, the rules
Speaker 3: are different for criminal procedures than they were in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy seven. You know, they had changed pretty drastically. Back
Speaker 3: in seventy seven, a degree guilt hearing was usually presided
Speaker 3: over by a panel of judges what they call sitting
Speaker 3: in the bank. Now, what would happen is is the
Speaker 3: degree a guilt hearing would be heard over seen by
Speaker 3: just one judge. So and then that eventually happens after
Speaker 3: some delay back and forth, it eventually does happen a
Speaker 3: few years after and it eventually starts to get underwegh
Speaker 3: and it really it really sets a precedent for one
Speaker 3: of the cases here that has bothered the Eerie area
Speaker 3: for a while with everybody, you know, on on their toes,
Speaker 3: because in twenty twenty, you know, when that degree of
Speaker 3: guilt hearing began, everybody was interested in is pain going
Speaker 3: to go back to prison or is he going to
Speaker 3: be able to walk?
Speaker 2: Brief what do authorities learn from this hearing that they
Speaker 2: may not have known beforehand.
Speaker 3: So what it happened is is with the degree of
Speaker 3: guilt overturned his conviction overturned. That was due to his
Speaker 3: DNA not being on Debbie's body. And you know, there's
Speaker 3: several different opinions about that. Some people believe that it
Speaker 3: was because the DNA was too degraded that it is
Speaker 3: still pains DNA. Others believed that Pain had an accomplice.
Speaker 3: What the Degree of Guilt hearing focused on, at least
Speaker 3: was not whether Pain had an accomplice or who left
Speaker 3: the DNA. Payne had already acknowledged that he was responsible
Speaker 3: for Debbie's death. He said it in a confession. He
Speaker 3: pled guilty to it, so there is no dispute in
Speaker 3: regards to that. What they did is they used his
Speaker 3: own statement against him because, as I said before, how
Speaker 3: he claimed Debbie died did not match up with the
Speaker 3: forensic evidence that was all brought out in the Degree
Speaker 3: of Guilt hearing. So and that just came out. You know,
Speaker 3: Judge braybender Over saw that case. He did a fantastic job.
Speaker 3: You know, even Jack Neary, who I know, he did
Speaker 3: an excellent job handling that for the District Attorney's office,
Speaker 3: and it was really it was really a powerful case
Speaker 3: where they really you know, but but you also had
Speaker 3: to deal with other specifics as well. I mean, you
Speaker 3: have people from the nineteen seventies who are no longer alive.
Speaker 3: Doctor Robert Thomas, who was the original county corner for
Speaker 3: Crawford County was no longer alive, so they had to go.
Speaker 3: They couldn't find any autopsy photos at the time, so
Speaker 3: they were lacking in certain things that they could produce
Speaker 3: and not produce at the trial. So it all kind
Speaker 3: of brings back that anxiety again for Betty and her family,
Speaker 3: what's going to happen, you know, But at least she
Speaker 3: and her family approach it from a different perspective. She
Speaker 3: approaches it through through new eyes.
Speaker 2: I think at that point, you right, that the idea
Speaker 2: of Raymond Pain having accomplice set off a firestorm of
Speaker 2: speculation that exploded on the Internet and social media.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is still something that is really hotly
Speaker 3: debated today. And that's what makes this case fascinating is
Speaker 3: it's still debated not even here in Eerie, but on
Speaker 3: true crime forums. Other podcasts have carried it, Like I said,
Speaker 3: the Lake Erie Murders on Hulu also you know, discussed
Speaker 3: it as well. So but but it really kind of
Speaker 3: sets up several different factors. That still, I would say
Speaker 3: want everybody today is that despite what we know about
Speaker 3: the case, what was written, we really don't know all
Speaker 3: the facts of the story. And as as you will see,
Speaker 3: Raymond Pain is never going to acknowledge or admit, he
Speaker 3: never does what fully happened. He takes that with him
Speaker 3: to his grave. What it comes down to is it
Speaker 3: also kind of reignites all these rumors about the case
Speaker 3: right from the nineteen seventies, you know, that bring up
Speaker 3: Debbie's character again. That really kind of focus on a
Speaker 3: minimalization of Raymond Pain. But we know there's several things.
Speaker 3: What we can here's here's what we know at least
Speaker 3: about it, and we can kind of, you know, speculate
Speaker 3: all we want to. But there's DNA found on the body.
Speaker 3: You can't dispute that. With technology today, technology could ascertain
Speaker 3: if that DNA, even if it's degraded. They have the
Speaker 3: you know, with Authorm and all these other different companies,
Speaker 3: they have an excellent opportunity to be able to take
Speaker 3: that DNA and test it. That's going to tell you
Speaker 3: several different factors. Okay, we come back to how that
Speaker 3: DMA got there. DNA should never be found on a child.
Speaker 3: We all know that. So it comes down to two things.
Speaker 3: Either it was a consensual matter or it was a
Speaker 3: criminal matter. I'm inclined to believe, as everything I've written
Speaker 3: in the book, that Debbie was not promiscuous at the time.
Speaker 3: We have a pretty good idea, We have a pretty
Speaker 3: good breakdown of where she was in the days prior
Speaker 3: to her death, in disappearance and up until we have
Speaker 3: a several day window of between when she disappears and
Speaker 3: when she is found in Crawford County. But it would
Speaker 3: have been completely out of character for Debbie to just
Speaker 3: randomly meet up with somebody have a promiscuous encounter. That
Speaker 3: that's not in her nature. It wasn't who she was
Speaker 3: as a person. And I know there's people who probably
Speaker 3: rollize and say, yeah, well, anything can happen, and that's
Speaker 3: very true. But the evidence it leads to point where
Speaker 3: it's a criminal encounter that led to that DNA being
Speaker 3: found on her body. And there's that DNA evidence is
Speaker 3: going to point to two different two individuals. If it
Speaker 3: is really degraded, and if they are able to pool it,
Speaker 3: it'll either confirm that it's Raymond Pain and if it's
Speaker 3: not him, it'll be somebody else. And if it is
Speaker 3: somebody else, that individual is still out there needs to
Speaker 3: be brought to justice. Whether they were an accomplice of
Speaker 3: pain or whether it was a completely different situation. I
Speaker 3: tend to believe it's tied in with her murder. This
Speaker 3: kind of book ends the mythology of Raymond Pain is
Speaker 3: he had a tendency with his students and kids to
Speaker 3: manipulate and control them. We know that for a fact.
Speaker 3: We know that from girls and students who have come
Speaker 3: forward over the years. And here here's one thing to
Speaker 3: kind of alleviates that is after he pled guilty in
Speaker 3: it and claim that he had strangled Debbie, dozens of
Speaker 3: students still visited him while he was in prison. That
Speaker 3: gives you an idea of what kind of control this
Speaker 3: individual had. So it's not something that we can rule out.
Speaker 3: And I think that that's something that at least we
Speaker 3: owe to Debbie's family, and we owe to Debbie to
Speaker 3: have that DNA tested. And I know the family is
Speaker 3: supportive of it because I've spoken with her sister. But
Speaker 3: I think that DNA is crucial because I think it'll
Speaker 3: give you I mean it could have been a consensual account.
Speaker 3: If that's the case, at least you can rule it out.
Speaker 3: But that's still you know, as much as we know
Speaker 3: about this case, it comes to reveal there's still quite
Speaker 3: a bit that we likely don't know and we'll never know.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's incredible. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 2: for coming on and talking about the murder of Debbie Gamma.
Speaker 2: You talked about Betty dying in twenty twenty three at
Speaker 2: the age of eighty, but that was three years after
Speaker 2: Raymond Payne died in twenty twenty. I want to thank
Speaker 2: you very much for coming on and talking about the
Speaker 2: murder of Debbi Gamma. Justice and Abolition in Erie. For
Speaker 2: those people that might want to find out more about
Speaker 2: this book or your rather work, can you tell us
Speaker 2: about a website or any social media you do?
Speaker 3: Sure so, I do. I write a lot about research
Speaker 3: I do in cases, especially related to Great Lakes historical
Speaker 3: true crime. You can find that on Facebook at Shadows
Speaker 3: from the Boulevard. You can also find my books on
Speaker 3: Amazon dot Com, Barnes and Noble, any big box retailers.
Speaker 3: If you're local to the Erie area, Warner Books a bookseller.
Speaker 3: There's pressed coffee and books also in Eerie. Pretty wide
Speaker 3: variety and outlet. I know Walmart dot com, Target dot com,
Speaker 3: pretty numerous avenues where you can purchase a copy.
Speaker 2: That's great. Thank you so much, Justin Dombrowski The Murder
Speaker 2: of Debbie Gamma, Justice and Abolition in Erie. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for this interview. Thank you, thank you for
Speaker 2: having me, and goodness night,