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Speaker 1: What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul,

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the podcast where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy

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anything you want about the National Electrical Code and all

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things electrically related. Thanks for taking the time to listen

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to this podcast. You know our podcasts. We have literally

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thousands of episodes of our podcast available on your favorite

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listening platform, whatever platform you're listening on right now, But

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you also can listen on our free mobile app. So

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all you gotta do is go to our website. It

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is fast Tracks that's t R a X by the way,

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fast Tracks system system dot com and in the navigational

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bar you will see where it says mobile app. You

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simply go there and if you're on your phone, you

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just simply tap on the link and it'll ask you

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to download it on your phone and you just do it.

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If you're on your desktop, you can go there and

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you'll see a QR code and you pull out your phone,

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scan the QR code, Boom, it'll load it on your phone. Now,

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we're not going to download anything into your phone. We're

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only going to put a web based link, kind of

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like clicking on a link to get to a website.

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All of our apps are in the cloud now. I

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made that decision years ago when I shifted away from

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the Wix stuff and we started doing our own because

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I did not want to put stuff on your phone,

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but I wanted to give you an instant link. So

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it acts like a mobile app, It works like a

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mobile app. It has all the features of a mobile app,

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but it doesn't install garbage into your device. And I

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am big against those type of things. I do not

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want that on my phone, and I certainly would not

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want that on your phone. So again, check it out.

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It's available over on fasttracksystem dot com. And if you

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get the mobile app, you can actually listen to our

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podcast directly from the mobile app, and you can even

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stream it to any of your Bluetooth connected devices. I

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listened to one of my Bluetooth devices in the shower.

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I connect it from my phone. I happen to listen

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to Spotify because I listened to a lot of entrepreneurial

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type of podcasts and things like that. So I actually

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will stream it to that Bluetooth device. Well, you could

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do the same thing with our podcast, and so yeah, easypasy.

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You can also listen on any of your favorite platforms Spreaker, Spotify,

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dz er iHeartRadio, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, any of those.

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All you got to do is just search for Master

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the NEC podcast or Let's Ask Paul podcasts and usually

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you can hear all of the Let's Ask Paul's also

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on Master the NEC podcast, so that's the best one

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to get, and that's on more platforms. So check it

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out and do me a favor, give a thumbs up,

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give a like, share with other people, show some love

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again for the effort. Right, there's a lot of people

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that can be haters out there, but the problem with

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them is they don't do anything but spew hate. I

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don't see them making videos. I don't see them doing shows.

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I don't see them doing podcasts. They talk a lot

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of garbage, but they don't do anything. They don't give back. Okay,

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So at the end of the day, I'm on all

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types of social media. I don't shy away from it.

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I teach people on Coffee Hour every morning at eight

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am Eastern time. Hopefully you'll join me on all of

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our social platforms. So at the end of the day,

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it's about making good electricians great electricians. But it's also

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about taking sucky electricians and making them better too, Okay,

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because we got our share of those out there. All

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you got to do is spend a little time on

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social media. You will find out pretty quickly there are

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some sucky electricians out there, but there's also some great

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ones out there. Okay, So anyway, let's get into today.

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So what we're gonna do today is, I do have

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some questions that were submitted to me, uh from the

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Let's Ask Paul podcast, which, by the way, you can

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actually submit your questions to me for free. All you

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gotta do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com. It's

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a simple portal sponsored by Wicks. You put in your name,

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email address, and then you put in your question. Please

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be as detailed as possible. Let me know what code

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cycle you're on, so that I can make sure that

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my responses are tailored to the NEC cycle that you're using,

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because I don't want to assume anything, but be as

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detailed as you can. The vaguer you are than the

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vagar response that you're gonna get. Okay, all right, so

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let's see here. I have a question that was submitted.

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Let me see if I can put up here, all right,

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here's the first question that we have. Now, let me

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also make sure that I get the code book here,

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because again I might need to make some reference to

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the NEC, so I want to make sure that I

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do that. Okay, all right, here's the first one of today.

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It says Paul. My question has to do with seer

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cable and when people sleave it with PVC for protection

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and through an LB into the structure. Says people always okay.

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He says, people always strip the sheathing to run it

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in the conduit? Is this a code violation? And also

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from a manufacturer's perspective, which obviously he knows that I

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work for a large manufacturer, and also I am a

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patent holder of a product that is both SCR and

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trade cables. So this is a very I'm a good

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person to ask this question. By the way, Now I

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don't speak for all manufacturers. Hey, I'm just going to

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be generic when it comes to a wiring cable response,

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but it's a good question for somebody like me to answer.

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He also goes and says, is this against their installation guidelines?

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And that's talking about manufacturers. Says, I've always considered this

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a violation of one ten three b but maybe I'm wrong.

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Look forward to hearing your take on this and thank

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you in advance. Okay, great question. As always, I've got

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some of the greatest followers in the world. They send

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me questions. I noticed this gentleman right here actually comes

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to our coffee hours. I won't say his name. Now.

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If you do send me a question at Paul Abernathy

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dot com and you want me to shout out your name,

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just let me know. Otherwise I'll keep it anonymous that way,

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you know, you ever know who's listening or whatnot. But

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if you don't care and you want me to do

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a shout out, just let me know, I'll shout out.

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Ain't no hater on that, buddy. All right, let's talk

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about SCR cable. Okay, so manifest so Service Entrance cable.

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S c R is just one version. The R stands

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for round. You have the SEU. The U stands for unguarded, okay,

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which basically is two conductors and a helical third conductor.

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It does not have to be made that way. It

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could be three separate conductors in there. It's just that

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it's typically SEU, who is what you would see from

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outside from your let's say weatherhead down to the meter

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line side of a meter, right, and then from the

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load side of a meter down to if you're dwelling,

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it'd be to the emergency disconnect right or service disconnect

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if they're both there. So the question is with that

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is does it have to be the helical. No, it

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doesn't have to be. It could be round as well.

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People don't understand that it's just a choice from manufacturers

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to use the U style that basically looks like a

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Beefier non metallic sheath cable. That's that's basically it looks

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like a Beefier non metallic sheath cable with a gray

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sheathing on it. Okay, that's not industry standard either. That's

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just what all of us do. They put the gray

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sheathing on top of it, and then we wrap the conductors,

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wrap around everything with a fiberglass what's called a binder

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that is required by UL eight fifty four to have

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that fiberglass binder. Okay, way more information than you probably wanted,

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but I figure, what the hell, I'll share it with you. Okay,

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So next, manufacturer specific, if you're a manufacturer in you

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actually mark the conductors that are actually in that are

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actually in your cable, then stripping out the sheathing is

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going to be okay as long as those conductors are marked. Right,

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So in that scenario is long as you're meeting all

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the marking requirements that are found in the National Electrical Code,

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then that is not going to be any issue that

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you You know, if you follow all the requirements for

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three to ten dot eight of the NEC. The marking

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says all conductors in cables. Now, some cables require the marking.

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For example, non metallic sheath cable. Typically we put the

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marking on the sheathing. We don't put any marking on

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the conductors inside of it, which means number one, you

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couldn't strip that sheathing off and use those conductors inside

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because they don't have the markings that are required by three. Okay,

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now we're permitted to put it on the sheathing and

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let that be it, because that's assembly. You're not supposed

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to break the assembly apart. However, if I were to

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label those conductors properly, as if they were individual, single

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insulated conductors, then it would be no different than our

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MC cable. So MC cable typically you don't strip out

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the conductors unless those conductors are marked, and they're marked,

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then I can use a transition fitting and go from

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the MC over to whatever other wiring method that I'm

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installing them in that type of thing. You with me, okay,

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So that that is the concept. Now when it comes

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to se R, not all manufacturers will mark the conductors

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inside of that cable assembly, most of the men, not all,

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most of the manufacturers will because they're using the same

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inner conductors, this single insulated conductors inside of it. They're

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using the exact same thing ones they would if they

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sold it on a reel that you would pull into

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a raceway. And it's simply because of time. Why make

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something separate? Okay, well we do that for NM, but

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why do that for an SC when basically we just

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want to take conductors that are off of a reel

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that have already been marked, that we could have sold

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for use in a raceway, but we also just take

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them and use them in a cable assembly. When you

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find a manufacturer that does not mark their conductors in

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an se cable, then obviously stripping off the sheeting would

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not permit you to use those conductors because they would

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be outside of the sheeting, and that would be a

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violation of one ten dot three b okay, because you

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want to use the product that is intended. And then

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next the conductors, you wouldn't be able to read any markings,

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so that would be a violation again of three ten

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dot eight. Right now, let's say that you do put

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the markings on it. One of the things that people

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don't realize is that if I had an sc cable,

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I am okay to take an SCR and s leave

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it inside of a raceway. Now, if it's a complete

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system means in this case they made reference to an LB.

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If it's not for physical damage and it goes from

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point A to point B, then they then it's gonna

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have to be a raceway. Fil calculation is gonna have

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to take place. And it's a cable and you treat

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it like it's a single insulated conductor and it's a

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big one. But that's how you treat it. And you

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can feel that raceway up to fifty three percent. That

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tells us that in chapter nine, Table one, and then

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you go down to the notes, it tells us that

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I can't remember I think it's note nine. So anyway,

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but you also have a note two which says, you

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know what, you don't have to worry about the raceway, Phil,

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if all you're doing is putting that se cable in

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this raceway to protect it from something. So that's a

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difference between a complete system. Whereas you have a raceway

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that's from box to box or box to cabinet and

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you're just putting the race the cable inside of it,

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that's a complete system. Then you're gonna have to do

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a raceway, Phil, calc if you're just leaving it through

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a short piece of raceway and you're doing it for protection,

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and again that's not defined any c. We don't say

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what's physical damage, what's severe physical damage. That's something you

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work out with your AHJ. But if you're doing it

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for the reason to protect it, then at the end

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of the day, you don't have to meet the raceway Phil. Okay,

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now trust me, I'm building up to this. So that

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covers that aspect of the question. So now what about

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the concept of going from let's say, transitioning into a

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raceway which would turn into an LB. So you are

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required when you go from one wiring method to another

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wiring method to have a transition. Okay, So this is

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an example where if you were to go from MC

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cable and and you had conductors inside of it that

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were marked. It's very common for people to do stub

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ups and buildings and they'll go up and they'll change

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over between MC over to an EMT fitting. Well, if

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the conductors itself are marked, then they can once they

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enter that EMT they're just used as regular conductors. But

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you have to have a proper listed dot six listing, Okay,

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dot six of three point thirty for example, for MC,

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the fitting that transitions between MC and EMT, the transition

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between two different wiring methods has to be a listed

238
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,000
fitting for transitioning, okay. Not something you cobble together with

239
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,679
a coupling and some connectors. Okay, it's a transition fitting.

240
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,200
They're available. Whether you want to pay for them or

241
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,279
whether you want to hunt them down, that's up to you.

242
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,000
I'm not here to get into that. You can have

243
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:53,480
that argument with your AGEJ. I'm just telling you there

244
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,519
are transition fittings. Okay. So when I go, for example,

245
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,159
with NM cable, and I'm in an unfinished basement and

246
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,120
I'm going to sleeve it down a raceway that's exposed

247
00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:06,279
it's mounted on the surface. The code is very clear

248
00:14:06,879 --> 00:14:10,320
of how I enter that. Okay, but I'm going to

249
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,799
run the cable all the way down and into the

250
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,480
box because I know that stripping that off would be

251
00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:21,399
a violation because there is no marking on the NM cable.

252
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,720
So when it comes to the SE cable, can I

253
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,919
just run it into the LB not if I don't

254
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,679
have a transition fitting. So the best thing you can

255
00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:35,240
do is leave the sheathing on it and run it

256
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,360
all the way in. If you're going to run it

257
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,639
into a raceway, leave the sheathing on it, run it

258
00:14:39,639 --> 00:14:41,200
all the way till it gets to the end, and

259
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,919
have at least a quarter of an inch sticking into

260
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,679
whatever you're running it into, and then strip it. There

261
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,039
is no reason for you to have to take off

262
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,960
the sheathing. If you do have a transition fitting and

263
00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:57,120
you can transition from ser that has the markings on

264
00:14:57,159 --> 00:15:00,120
the conductors inside of it, and you have a trans

265
00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:03,200
fitting that allows me to transition from a cable assembly

266
00:15:04,559 --> 00:15:08,240
to another wiring method, then as long as those conductors

267
00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:12,759
are marked, you're okay, go for it. I don't get

268
00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:15,840
the sense of that in your question, so I would

269
00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:20,279
say it depends on whether the conductors are marked inside

270
00:15:20,279 --> 00:15:23,840
of that se Okay. If they're not marked, then it

271
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,039
would be a violation to strip it out. If they

272
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,600
are marked, As long as you're using a proper transition

273
00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:32,399
fitting to go from one daring methoing to it other,

274
00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:35,639
then I don't see any problem with it at all. Now,

275
00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:37,960
can I control what people are going to do? I

276
00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:39,559
know that their people are going to just strip it

277
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,279
and do what they want to do, and that's you know,

278
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,399
that's you do you boo. I'm just telling you this

279
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,600
is the proper way. It's addressed in the National Electrical Code.

280
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,279
You need to have a proper fitting. That's one listed

281
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,639
for the s R and also transitions, and the fitting

282
00:15:55,639 --> 00:15:58,840
would also be listed for the EMT. If that is

283
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,919
what you're transitioning to, that'd be the same whether it

284
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,799
with Schedule eighties, Schedule forty PVC or what have you.

285
00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:07,559
That table scenario you get me, Okay, So hopefully that

286
00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,639
answers that question for you, and I gave you probably

287
00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:15,639
way more information that you wanted that you wanted on

288
00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:19,600
that episode. Okay. Now, when it comes to the last

289
00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:25,279
part of your question though about manufacturers instructions, that type

290
00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:29,120
of thing. I remind you that as manufacturers, we don't

291
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,799
really tell you how to install the product, and none

292
00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:36,679
of our recommendations are part of a listing. So we're

293
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,480
not going to tell you how to use the se cable.

294
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,559
We're going to tell you to follow the National Electrical Code.

295
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:42,840
That's what we're going to tell you. If we give

296
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,360
you an installation guide, typically that has nothing to do

297
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,039
with the listing. That is something that a manufacturers drawn

298
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,159
up to help you, but not doing it per our

299
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,200
guide does not violate anything. It's just something that a

300
00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:59,080
manufacturer may produce. It's not part of the listing. So

301
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,399
for se cables, for example, we're not going to submit

302
00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:04,839
anything into the listing about the installation practice. We're going

303
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,039
to lead that to the National Electrical Code. Okay, hope

304
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,880
that makes sense. Okay, let's see here. We have another

305
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,200
question that was submitted. Darlene highlighted this one. It says

306
00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:18,400
it says, Paul, I have a question on your Coffee

307
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,559
Hour show. Can you go over torque torquing large and

308
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,640
small breakers lug torquing, how to use the how to

309
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,480
use the annex? Should the torque tool be certified? Keeping

310
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,759
the cirt with the tool for anyone should at in

311
00:17:34,759 --> 00:17:37,799
case anyone should ask, I want my crew to understand

312
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,200
the NEC rules. Okay, great question again torquing. I get

313
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:47,759
quite a bit of questions that are about things like torquing.

314
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,480
So the first thing that I guess that I will

315
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,319
tell you is that anybody that's trying to do a

316
00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,079
little more on in torking has to go look at

317
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,640
one ten dot fourteen D. And it has changed between

318
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,599
twenty twenty and twenty twenty three a little bit in

319
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,920
a sense that it's kind of lightened up a little

320
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,119
bit on the reference to things like a calibrated torquing tool,

321
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,200
which is just one way to verify torking, But previous

322
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,359
to the twenty twenty three it kind of implied that

323
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,920
that was the only way to do it, and that's

324
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,440
really not the case. We have other things like sheer

325
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,680
bolts or breakaway style devices that once they get to

326
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,160
a certain value that they'll break, whether it's ends pounds,

327
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,319
foot pounds, whatever it is on the equipment you're doing

328
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,119
that they will break, so you can buy that. So

329
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,920
it didn't make sense to mandate a calibrated torquing tool

330
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,839
as basically gave the impression that was the only way

331
00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:42,920
to do it. That isn't the only way to do it.

332
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:45,319
There are other things that are out there. So when

333
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,200
it comes to the twenty twenty three edition of the

334
00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:50,559
NEC they kind of clarified that and said, look, and

335
00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:53,880
I'm quoting now from the code. It says tightening torque

336
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,400
values for terminal connections shall be as indicated on the

337
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:04,559
equipment or or in installation instructions provided by the manufacturer.

338
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,839
It says an approved means shall be used to achieve

339
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,160
the indicated torque value. So there is a torque value,

340
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,279
it's going to be on the machine, it's going to

341
00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,200
be on equipment, going to be on their installation instructions

342
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,119
that come with it, in other words, telling you what

343
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,720
to torque it at again cable. As you heard earlier,

344
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:30,599
we don't make installation instructions for sc cable. However, manufacturers

345
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,079
of terminals, manufacturers of panel boards, other equipment, they do

346
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,359
because they use different things that it's real important that

347
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,000
you install it within the perimeters of their piece of equipment.

348
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,240
So for torquing values, they will give you values whether

349
00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:49,359
it's inch pounds or foot pounds, and it'll put it

350
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,240
right on the piece of equipment, or it might be

351
00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:54,079
even on the device itself. Okay, it could be on

352
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,680
the box for the device, anything like that. They'll give

353
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,839
you values. So when it it comes to the National

354
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,920
Electrical Cod's view on it, okay, if it's indicated on

355
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,680
the equipment, that's what you tork it to. If it's

356
00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:11,000
in the instructions for that specific piece of equipment where

357
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:14,400
it does have such information, then you follow it because

358
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,599
it's provided by the manufacturer. In fact, that's going to

359
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,279
be part of its listing. Whereas remember I told you

360
00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:23,319
for sc cable, we don't do any of that. There's

361
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:26,319
nothing that we submit with our cable. You just nothing

362
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,039
we submit with our conductors. Be honest with you. You

363
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:32,160
install them in other different wiring methods, all right. But

364
00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:35,319
once you enter into equipment, then you follow the rules

365
00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,359
of the NEEC. And if the manufacture of the equipment,

366
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,680
say up say a service a switch gear or a

367
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,759
panel board or whatnot, or load center, they're going to

368
00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:49,200
give you instructions for terminating our conductors onto those devices,

369
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:51,799
and they're going to give you a value to torquet at.

370
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,640
Now you probably didn't realize that there's torque values on receptacles.

371
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,079
There's torque values on switches, there are torque values on

372
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,000
splicing device Polaris splices. There's torque values on many things.

373
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:08,160
Now there's also torque values on things like MC connectors,

374
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,319
AC connectors. All this time, many people don't follow those

375
00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:14,440
type of things, They don't really pay any attention to it.

376
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,880
But you really do follow it more than you probably know.

377
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,359
When it comes to things like feeders and service conductors

378
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,119
and things like that, or terminating onto brand to breakers

379
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,240
overcurrent protective devices, you have a torque value that you've

380
00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:30,119
got to achieve there, and then many people just probably

381
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,759
just tighten it down as tight as they can. Now,

382
00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:34,000
that can make a difference whether you're dealing with copper aluminum.

383
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,839
Aluminum as little. It's not as hard as copper, so

384
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,799
it's not as forgiving as it would be for copper,

385
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,799
although both can crush very easily. So you have to

386
00:21:43,839 --> 00:21:47,799
follow torquevalues and tighter does not always mean better. Okay,

387
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,279
it's just important thing to remember that whether it's copper

388
00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:55,160
or aluminum, you have a certain level of creep, you

389
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,680
have a certain level of relaxation from compression, and again

390
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,680
depending on how badly you compress it, and how it's

391
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,000
going to affect the lugging, the termination, and whether that

392
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,039
reliefs a little bit and you get an arc in

393
00:22:11,079 --> 00:22:14,920
there and the product doesn't recover the same. Again, we

394
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,720
have to you have to be very careful. And that's

395
00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:20,799
why torking is so important now. It's probably less impactful

396
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:24,440
for people on devices, for example, receptacles. If you backstab

397
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,599
a fourteen gauge into a fifteen ap rated receptacle that

398
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,240
allows backstabbing, then you ain't got to worry about torquing values.

399
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,160
Even if you hate backstabbing, you do it, or I

400
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,119
have to worry about it. But if you use the

401
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,519
screws on the side, you better worry about it. Now.

402
00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:41,279
Do you worry about it? Do you use a torquing

403
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,039
screw driver every time? Probably not? And I'm not here

404
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,359
to badger you about it and preach to you about it.

405
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,440
You do, you boot, You do what you want to do.

406
00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:51,480
But at the end of the day, if you see

407
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,279
a torque value on something, you're supposed to be torking

408
00:22:54,279 --> 00:22:58,880
it to that value. That's what the manufacturers have submitted. Okay, Now,

409
00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:02,079
in the previous code cycle, when it made reference to

410
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,319
calibrated torking tool that really caused a bunch of ripples

411
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:09,880
through the inspection industry. They were like, well, how the

412
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,640
hell do I make sure that this is done? I mean,

413
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:13,880
do a calibrated tool?

414
00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 2: I do?

415
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: I have to have a certificate showing a current calibration?

416
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,319
Do I have to see that before every job? How

417
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:23,960
do I know they did? They're just showing me some

418
00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:26,400
piece of paper. How do I know they actually torqued it,

419
00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:29,759
right do I? All those type of things cost quite

420
00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:33,599
a bit of a stir. And so the only thing

421
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,680
that's really changed here is that a calibrated torking tool

422
00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:41,119
is just one approved method by the HJ. There are

423
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,559
other approved methods now. The informational note in one ten

424
00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:48,720
dot fourteen D makes it very clear. It says examples

425
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,759
of approved means for achieving the indicated torque value include

426
00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:58,759
torquing tools or devices such as sheer bolts or breakaway

427
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,799
style devices with visual indicators that demonstrate that the proper

428
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,799
torque has been applied that type of thing. Right, So

429
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,839
it's one of those things where people are like, okay,

430
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:16,880
I understand it now. Before one ten dot fourteen came

431
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,759
into play, so that's where we'll go next. People say, well,

432
00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:24,680
what happened before one ten dot fourteen came into play,

433
00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:29,640
because you know that was the big deal where people

434
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,640
were looking at it going, well, this didn't come into

435
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,480
play until it was adopted, right. And one of the

436
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,240
things that I think is important is to realize that

437
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:45,839
the calibrated torking tool requirement actually disappeared in the twenty twenty.

438
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,599
They put in some values and they add some words.

439
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,119
They add approved means. This is not new, folks. This

440
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,200
was in the twenty twenty edition. So the torque calibrated

441
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,559
torking tool was all the way back in the twenty

442
00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,400
seventeen and people freaked out. That's not the case. So

443
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,200
it's been removed that part about it. But people say, well,

444
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:09,480
what happened before we got one ten dot fourteen? Well,

445
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,160
before one ten dot fourteen D the reference that you

446
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,799
would have used was one ten three B Because if

447
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:21,720
the manufacturer installs, gives you a product and they post

448
00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:25,519
a torquing value on the side of the product, then

449
00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:31,680
you're forced to follow it. Right. I'm just saying that's

450
00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:36,359
the what you're supposed to do. So we could argue

451
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,599
that it was a violation of one ten three B

452
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,200
to not because what does one ten dot three B say?

453
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,400
It says equipment and the under the twenty twenty code,

454
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,640
it says equipment that is listed, labeled or both. Shall

455
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,519
I be installed and used in accordance with any instructions

456
00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:56,559
included in the listing and labeling. And remember, we don't

457
00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:00,480
give you that information for wiring cable Okay, we don't

458
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,200
give you that. We just say follow the NEC. But

459
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:07,200
there are plenty of manufacturers for different things that have

460
00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:12,240
torquing that's required. They will specifically give you values. And

461
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:14,119
this is the way it's always been. But it was

462
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,079
under one ten dot three B when they required it.

463
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,799
It just didn't really get broader for everybody until the

464
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,640
introduction of one ten dot fourteen D and then people

465
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,839
were like, oh, I get it. That type of thing.

466
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,519
So that's the thing, so you're required to tork it. Now,

467
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:34,480
how to deal with it. Here's how I deal with it,

468
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,920
to be honest with you, because I know, and I

469
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:38,880
tell this to people all the time, I know that

470
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,160
you're not going to be torquing every screwdriver, every screw

471
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,759
on a switch or device. I get it. I get it.

472
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,000
And as an inspector, I am probably not. I mean,

473
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,839
I don't have the time to check all those right,

474
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,359
but you should be doing your service connections. You should

475
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,359
be doing all feeder connections. You should make sure you

476
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,160
own a torquing wrench and a torque screwdriver. I'm not

477
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,799
saying this to increase the stock of husky, Okay, I'm

478
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:10,279
just saying I mean, hell, go buy one at Harbor Free.

479
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:14,640
They're fine, It's fine. You know people, harbor Free. It's

480
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:21,440
too cheap, dude, It's it's fine. Relax. So at the

481
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:26,000
end of the day, it's it's having some way to

482
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,440
show the inspector. Now again, what I used to tell

483
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,720
people was, you know, the inspector doesn't have time to

484
00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:35,000
look at everything. So if you know your guys are

485
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,640
torking and doing it properly and following everything, then at

486
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,559
that point one of the things that you could do

487
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,440
is an AFFI David stating for you as the you know,

488
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,960
whoever's in charge of the job, the chief electrician, the

489
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,319
head electrician, the lead guy, whatever, stating that you're telling

490
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,880
the AHJ that you have personally witnessed or that you

491
00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,799
know that all of the terminations are torqued in accordance

492
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,880
with one ten dot three B and one ten dot

493
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,160
fourteen d H and give that to the inspector and

494
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,319
let that be part of the record that type of scenario.

495
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,400
If that makes you feel better, if the inspector wants

496
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,920
to check everything. Did you know that there's a misconception

497
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:18,559
that if I torque something at thirty five inch pounds

498
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:20,720
or foot pounds whatever depending is, or one hundred and

499
00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:23,039
fifty foot pounds or thirty five inch pounds whatever it is,

500
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,160
um or typically we're we're talking more like four to

501
00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:31,640
six inch pounds and then we're talking foot pounds when

502
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,960
we get a lot higher either way. When you do that,

503
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,519
can remember that even if they come back to test

504
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:41,599
it later, you're not going to overtighten it because you're

505
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:43,599
going to set the torquing device if they want to

506
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,359
check you at the value that you say you torqued

507
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:49,160
it at, and it should snap at or about that vey.

508
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,039
It's certainly not going to put any more damage to it.

509
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:53,839
It's not going to tighten it any tighter unless you

510
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,720
just got a total malfunctioned tool, right, so typically it

511
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,119
should snap anyway. That's it's not going to cause any

512
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,880
undo damage. But tightening it and trying to make it

513
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,000
as tight as you can is not the answer. Everything

514
00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:10,960
just needs to be torque properly. So if I was

515
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,759
giving you some advice on the process, then what I

516
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:17,480
would say is get your folks used to using them,

517
00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:20,480
having them whatever they want to use, whatever design they

518
00:29:20,519 --> 00:29:22,279
want to use. If they want to use a calibrated

519
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:25,920
torking tool, that's fine. It no longer says that it

520
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,079
has to be calibrated. Okay, the HJ could handle, could

521
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,799
accept it even if it's an uncalibrated torking tool. But

522
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,640
the end of the day, you know, it's one of

523
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,200
those things where I would get used to doing services.

524
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,079
I would do feeder connections if you're in a panel,

525
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:42,480
I would do breakers, and I would do lugs and

526
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,119
terminations onto the bus bars. I would do that while

527
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,720
I'm in the panel. Okay, you can get torquing screwdrivers

528
00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,599
today that are just They work just like an eight

529
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:55,079
to one if you will, same kind of concept, and

530
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:57,279
they do fine. A husky one. I love my husky.

531
00:29:57,319 --> 00:29:59,319
It works fine, and I use it in a panel.

532
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,799
I can't say I use it out in with receptacles.

533
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:05,000
And switches. Okay, I'm not gonna be a hypocrite here,

534
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,000
I just don't. I don't go that tight anyway. But

535
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:13,240
at the end of the day, I do use it

536
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:15,599
on panels when I'm working in a panel or something

537
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,319
like that. So again, that would be a good start.

538
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,480
That would be a good start. Okay, all right, all right,

539
00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,000
hopefully that answers your question. Oh you ask about the

540
00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:28,799
informtive ANX. I think that you did ask about that.

541
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,880
So what he's talking about there is how to apply

542
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,440
the informative ANX. So in your code you have what's

543
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,119
called an informive ANXI. It's not enforceable, it's not part

544
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,960
of any it's not part of any requirement. But it

545
00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:48,519
is extracted information. Okay, that comes out of UL. So

546
00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:52,200
it's out of UL four eighty six a dash for

547
00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:58,079
eighty six bay. So a manufacturer, for example, could cite

548
00:30:58,759 --> 00:31:02,079
this as where they get their torque values depending on

549
00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:07,759
the different type of screw or whatever, or tightening torque

550
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:10,559
for slotted head screws or all those type of things.

551
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,880
So if you can't find any information from a manufacturer,

552
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,279
and you can't find any information on the equipment, then

553
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,839
this is an example where it may be acceptable and

554
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,759
the age J has got to show a little leeway

555
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,720
to say, you know what, will you let me use

556
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:31,079
these values based on the UL standard, And all that's

557
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,839
in the NEC is just a regurgitated copy and paste.

558
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:37,319
It's just really all part of a UL standard. But

559
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:38,799
it just means that I don't have to go buy

560
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:41,960
the UL for eighty six standard to do this, because

561
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,880
those standards are expensive. Okay. So at the end of

562
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,319
the day, if it's if you don't have proper information

563
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:51,839
from a manufacturer and you don't have it posted on

564
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,240
the equipment in the absence of a manufacturer's instructions, then

565
00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:59,440
basically the torque values given in the tables that are

566
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,680
in the inform NXI. Okay, these little tables are recommended

567
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,680
because it's all based on documented information out of UL

568
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:14,039
underwriter's laboratory. Now, I can tell you point blank, I

569
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,000
don't know of any case except for really old equipment,

570
00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:19,279
that I ever had to do that I could easily

571
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:21,319
get it for the manufacturer, or it was posted in

572
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,880
the equipment that type of thing. But maybe you're working

573
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,039
on something old, the labels are old and worn, and

574
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:27,960
you're adding another circuit to an old panel and you

575
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,400
can't find this information, and maybe that company originally is

576
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,160
not in business anymore, and you've got to make some

577
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,799
good sound judgments. Then possibly I would use these tables

578
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:40,359
and an in form of NXI, and I would present

579
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,200
this to the age J and say, look, this is

580
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,079
all we got. Man, he's certainly not going to make

581
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:47,039
you change the whole panel or something because of this.

582
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,960
He's like, dude, this is this is all I got,

583
00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:52,000
So this is what I have to use. It makes

584
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:55,480
sense to me that type of thing. Also, be aware

585
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,519
that some companies that may be out of business may

586
00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:00,519
be absorbed by other companies, like Schneider may have absorbed

587
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:03,200
other companies. Okay, I don't know whether you know that

588
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:08,559
or not, but Schneider still makes a the slotted style

589
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,839
Federal Pacific that's used in Canada. They still make that design.

590
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:14,759
I hear a lot of negative stuff about the design,

591
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,400
but stablock, but it's still being made, still used in

592
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,400
other countries. But at the end of the day, because

593
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,440
that company bought something, you might be able to reach

594
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,240
out to their technical support and they able to give

595
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,359
you that additional information so that you can torqu it

596
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,799
properly that type of thing. That's all we're saying. Okay,

597
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,559
all right, so that is it for that. Hopefully that

598
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,440
gave you some guidance on how to do it. I

599
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,640
would teach my guys to torque all service conductors, all

600
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,039
feeder conductors, and in anything within an enclosure that has

601
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:48,559
a stamped torque value on it, then I would do that. Now,

602
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:50,440
when it comes to the other stuff like switches and

603
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,799
receptacles and connectors and fittings, use your best judgment on that. Again,

604
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,519
steer away from tightening it down until you get white knuckles.

605
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,799
Let's put it that way, Okay, but make it tight

606
00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:04,440
and kind of the best way they can do it. Now,

607
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,920
if you want to be a purist, then buy them

608
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,400
a torking screwdriver and torking wrenches and say this is

609
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,840
the only one you're gonna use. Okay, we'll see how

610
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,159
long that works out. But at the end of the day,

611
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,000
that's the best advice I can give you. Okay, all right,

612
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,760
that's it, folks. That's all we're gonna do for today's episode.

613
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,639
We covered two of them. It's been a while since

614
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:28,480
we've done some. Let's ask Paul. So hopefully you enjoy these.

615
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:31,159
If you want to submit something to me, all you've

616
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:34,840
got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com.

617
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,599
That's p a U l A b E r n

618
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:42,000
A thh y folks, go there, send me the question

619
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,280
I love hearing. But you can use that portal to

620
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,119
send me anything you want. You want to send me kudos,

621
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,239
you want to do some donations because you appreciate what

622
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,599
we do. There's a donate button there. Feel free to

623
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,400
donate whatever you want. We appreciate you, folks. Hopefully you

624
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,000
got something out of today's episode. Till next time, Stay safe,

625
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:58,000
God bless.

626
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: Both askball boot both both ask both Basketball No thing

627
00:35:26,039 --> 00:35:26,159
bo