Speaker 1: What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul,
the podcast where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy
anything you want about the National Electrical Code and all
things electrically related. Thanks for taking the time to listen
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ones out there. Okay, So anyway, let's get into today.
So what we're gonna do today is, I do have
some questions that were submitted to me, uh from the
Let's Ask Paul podcast, which, by the way, you can
actually submit your questions to me for free. All you
gotta do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com. It's
a simple portal sponsored by Wicks. You put in your name,
email address, and then you put in your question. Please
be as detailed as possible. Let me know what code
cycle you're on, so that I can make sure that
my responses are tailored to the NEC cycle that you're using,
because I don't want to assume anything, but be as
detailed as you can. The vaguer you are than the
vagar response that you're gonna get. Okay, all right, so
let's see here. I have a question that was submitted.
Let me see if I can put up here, all right,
here's the first question that we have. Now, let me
also make sure that I get the code book here,
because again I might need to make some reference to
the NEC, so I want to make sure that I
do that. Okay, all right, here's the first one of today.
It says Paul. My question has to do with seer
cable and when people sleave it with PVC for protection
and through an LB into the structure. Says people always okay.
He says, people always strip the sheathing to run it
in the conduit? Is this a code violation? And also
from a manufacturer's perspective, which obviously he knows that I
work for a large manufacturer, and also I am a
patent holder of a product that is both SCR and
trade cables. So this is a very I'm a good
person to ask this question. By the way, Now I
don't speak for all manufacturers. Hey, I'm just going to
be generic when it comes to a wiring cable response,
but it's a good question for somebody like me to answer.
He also goes and says, is this against their installation guidelines?
And that's talking about manufacturers. Says, I've always considered this
a violation of one ten three b but maybe I'm wrong.
Look forward to hearing your take on this and thank
you in advance. Okay, great question. As always, I've got
some of the greatest followers in the world. They send
me questions. I noticed this gentleman right here actually comes
to our coffee hours. I won't say his name. Now.
If you do send me a question at Paul Abernathy
dot com and you want me to shout out your name,
just let me know. Otherwise I'll keep it anonymous that way,
you know, you ever know who's listening or whatnot. But
if you don't care and you want me to do
a shout out, just let me know, I'll shout out.
Ain't no hater on that, buddy. All right, let's talk
about SCR cable. Okay, so manifest so Service Entrance cable.
S c R is just one version. The R stands
for round. You have the SEU. The U stands for unguarded, okay,
which basically is two conductors and a helical third conductor.
It does not have to be made that way. It
could be three separate conductors in there. It's just that
it's typically SEU, who is what you would see from
outside from your let's say weatherhead down to the meter
line side of a meter, right, and then from the
load side of a meter down to if you're dwelling,
it'd be to the emergency disconnect right or service disconnect
if they're both there. So the question is with that
is does it have to be the helical. No, it
doesn't have to be. It could be round as well.
People don't understand that it's just a choice from manufacturers
to use the U style that basically looks like a
Beefier non metallic sheath cable. That's that's basically it looks
like a Beefier non metallic sheath cable with a gray
sheathing on it. Okay, that's not industry standard either. That's
just what all of us do. They put the gray
sheathing on top of it, and then we wrap the conductors,
wrap around everything with a fiberglass what's called a binder
that is required by UL eight fifty four to have
that fiberglass binder. Okay, way more information than you probably wanted,
but I figure, what the hell, I'll share it with you. Okay,
So next, manufacturer specific, if you're a manufacturer in you
actually mark the conductors that are actually in that are
actually in your cable, then stripping out the sheathing is
going to be okay as long as those conductors are marked. Right,
So in that scenario is long as you're meeting all
the marking requirements that are found in the National Electrical Code,
then that is not going to be any issue that
you You know, if you follow all the requirements for
three to ten dot eight of the NEC. The marking
says all conductors in cables. Now, some cables require the marking.
For example, non metallic sheath cable. Typically we put the
marking on the sheathing. We don't put any marking on
the conductors inside of it, which means number one, you
couldn't strip that sheathing off and use those conductors inside
because they don't have the markings that are required by three. Okay,
now we're permitted to put it on the sheathing and
let that be it, because that's assembly. You're not supposed
to break the assembly apart. However, if I were to
label those conductors properly, as if they were individual, single
insulated conductors, then it would be no different than our
MC cable. So MC cable typically you don't strip out
the conductors unless those conductors are marked, and they're marked,
then I can use a transition fitting and go from
the MC over to whatever other wiring method that I'm
installing them in that type of thing. You with me, okay,
So that that is the concept. Now when it comes
to se R, not all manufacturers will mark the conductors
inside of that cable assembly, most of the men, not all,
most of the manufacturers will because they're using the same
inner conductors, this single insulated conductors inside of it. They're
using the exact same thing ones they would if they
sold it on a reel that you would pull into
a raceway. And it's simply because of time. Why make
something separate? Okay, well we do that for NM, but
why do that for an SC when basically we just
want to take conductors that are off of a reel
that have already been marked, that we could have sold
for use in a raceway, but we also just take
them and use them in a cable assembly. When you
find a manufacturer that does not mark their conductors in
an se cable, then obviously stripping off the sheeting would
not permit you to use those conductors because they would
be outside of the sheeting, and that would be a
violation of one ten dot three b okay, because you
want to use the product that is intended. And then
next the conductors, you wouldn't be able to read any markings,
so that would be a violation again of three ten
dot eight. Right now, let's say that you do put
the markings on it. One of the things that people
don't realize is that if I had an sc cable,
I am okay to take an SCR and s leave
it inside of a raceway. Now, if it's a complete
system means in this case they made reference to an LB.
If it's not for physical damage and it goes from
point A to point B, then they then it's gonna
have to be a raceway. Fil calculation is gonna have
to take place. And it's a cable and you treat
it like it's a single insulated conductor and it's a
big one. But that's how you treat it. And you
can feel that raceway up to fifty three percent. That
tells us that in chapter nine, Table one, and then
you go down to the notes, it tells us that
I can't remember I think it's note nine. So anyway,
but you also have a note two which says, you
know what, you don't have to worry about the raceway, Phil,
if all you're doing is putting that se cable in
this raceway to protect it from something. So that's a
difference between a complete system. Whereas you have a raceway
that's from box to box or box to cabinet and
you're just putting the race the cable inside of it,
that's a complete system. Then you're gonna have to do
a raceway, Phil, calc if you're just leaving it through
a short piece of raceway and you're doing it for protection,
and again that's not defined any c. We don't say
what's physical damage, what's severe physical damage. That's something you
work out with your AHJ. But if you're doing it
for the reason to protect it, then at the end
of the day, you don't have to meet the raceway Phil. Okay,
now trust me, I'm building up to this. So that
covers that aspect of the question. So now what about
the concept of going from let's say, transitioning into a
raceway which would turn into an LB. So you are
required when you go from one wiring method to another
wiring method to have a transition. Okay, So this is
an example where if you were to go from MC
cable and and you had conductors inside of it that
were marked. It's very common for people to do stub
ups and buildings and they'll go up and they'll change
over between MC over to an EMT fitting. Well, if
the conductors itself are marked, then they can once they
enter that EMT they're just used as regular conductors. But
you have to have a proper listed dot six listing, Okay,
dot six of three point thirty for example, for MC,
the fitting that transitions between MC and EMT, the transition
between two different wiring methods has to be a listed
fitting for transitioning, okay. Not something you cobble together with
a coupling and some connectors. Okay, it's a transition fitting.
They're available. Whether you want to pay for them or
whether you want to hunt them down, that's up to you.
I'm not here to get into that. You can have
that argument with your AGEJ. I'm just telling you there
are transition fittings. Okay. So when I go, for example,
with NM cable, and I'm in an unfinished basement and
I'm going to sleeve it down a raceway that's exposed
it's mounted on the surface. The code is very clear
of how I enter that. Okay, but I'm going to
run the cable all the way down and into the
box because I know that stripping that off would be
a violation because there is no marking on the NM cable.
So when it comes to the SE cable, can I
just run it into the LB not if I don't
have a transition fitting. So the best thing you can
do is leave the sheathing on it and run it
all the way in. If you're going to run it
into a raceway, leave the sheathing on it, run it
all the way till it gets to the end, and
have at least a quarter of an inch sticking into
whatever you're running it into, and then strip it. There
is no reason for you to have to take off
the sheathing. If you do have a transition fitting and
you can transition from ser that has the markings on
the conductors inside of it, and you have a trans
fitting that allows me to transition from a cable assembly
to another wiring method, then as long as those conductors
are marked, you're okay, go for it. I don't get
the sense of that in your question, so I would
say it depends on whether the conductors are marked inside
of that se Okay. If they're not marked, then it
would be a violation to strip it out. If they
are marked, As long as you're using a proper transition
fitting to go from one daring methoing to it other,
then I don't see any problem with it at all. Now,
can I control what people are going to do? I
know that their people are going to just strip it
and do what they want to do, and that's you know,
that's you do you boo. I'm just telling you this
is the proper way. It's addressed in the National Electrical Code.
You need to have a proper fitting. That's one listed
for the s R and also transitions, and the fitting
would also be listed for the EMT. If that is
what you're transitioning to, that'd be the same whether it
with Schedule eighties, Schedule forty PVC or what have you.
That table scenario you get me, Okay, So hopefully that
answers that question for you, and I gave you probably
way more information that you wanted that you wanted on
that episode. Okay. Now, when it comes to the last
part of your question though about manufacturers instructions, that type
of thing. I remind you that as manufacturers, we don't
really tell you how to install the product, and none
of our recommendations are part of a listing. So we're
not going to tell you how to use the se cable.
We're going to tell you to follow the National Electrical Code.
That's what we're going to tell you. If we give
you an installation guide, typically that has nothing to do
with the listing. That is something that a manufacturers drawn
up to help you, but not doing it per our
guide does not violate anything. It's just something that a
manufacturer may produce. It's not part of the listing. So
for se cables, for example, we're not going to submit
anything into the listing about the installation practice. We're going
to lead that to the National Electrical Code. Okay, hope
that makes sense. Okay, let's see here. We have another
question that was submitted. Darlene highlighted this one. It says
it says, Paul, I have a question on your Coffee
Hour show. Can you go over torque torquing large and
small breakers lug torquing, how to use the how to
use the annex? Should the torque tool be certified? Keeping
the cirt with the tool for anyone should at in
case anyone should ask, I want my crew to understand
the NEC rules. Okay, great question again torquing. I get
quite a bit of questions that are about things like torquing.
So the first thing that I guess that I will
tell you is that anybody that's trying to do a
little more on in torking has to go look at
one ten dot fourteen D. And it has changed between
twenty twenty and twenty twenty three a little bit in
a sense that it's kind of lightened up a little
bit on the reference to things like a calibrated torquing tool,
which is just one way to verify torking, But previous
to the twenty twenty three it kind of implied that
that was the only way to do it, and that's
really not the case. We have other things like sheer
bolts or breakaway style devices that once they get to
a certain value that they'll break, whether it's ends pounds,
foot pounds, whatever it is on the equipment you're doing
that they will break, so you can buy that. So
it didn't make sense to mandate a calibrated torquing tool
as basically gave the impression that was the only way
to do it. That isn't the only way to do it.
There are other things that are out there. So when
it comes to the twenty twenty three edition of the
NEC they kind of clarified that and said, look, and
I'm quoting now from the code. It says tightening torque
values for terminal connections shall be as indicated on the
equipment or or in installation instructions provided by the manufacturer.
It says an approved means shall be used to achieve
the indicated torque value. So there is a torque value,
it's going to be on the machine, it's going to
be on equipment, going to be on their installation instructions
that come with it, in other words, telling you what
to torque it at again cable. As you heard earlier,
we don't make installation instructions for sc cable. However, manufacturers
of terminals, manufacturers of panel boards, other equipment, they do
because they use different things that it's real important that
you install it within the perimeters of their piece of equipment.
So for torquing values, they will give you values whether
it's inch pounds or foot pounds, and it'll put it
right on the piece of equipment, or it might be
even on the device itself. Okay, it could be on
the box for the device, anything like that. They'll give
you values. So when it it comes to the National
Electrical Cod's view on it, okay, if it's indicated on
the equipment, that's what you tork it to. If it's
in the instructions for that specific piece of equipment where
it does have such information, then you follow it because
it's provided by the manufacturer. In fact, that's going to
be part of its listing. Whereas remember I told you
for sc cable, we don't do any of that. There's
nothing that we submit with our cable. You just nothing
we submit with our conductors. Be honest with you. You
install them in other different wiring methods, all right. But
once you enter into equipment, then you follow the rules
of the NEEC. And if the manufacture of the equipment,
say up say a service a switch gear or a
panel board or whatnot, or load center, they're going to
give you instructions for terminating our conductors onto those devices,
and they're going to give you a value to torquet at.
Now you probably didn't realize that there's torque values on receptacles.
There's torque values on switches, there are torque values on
splicing device Polaris splices. There's torque values on many things.
Now there's also torque values on things like MC connectors,
AC connectors. All this time, many people don't follow those
type of things, They don't really pay any attention to it.
But you really do follow it more than you probably know.
When it comes to things like feeders and service conductors
and things like that, or terminating onto brand to breakers
overcurrent protective devices, you have a torque value that you've
got to achieve there, and then many people just probably
just tighten it down as tight as they can. Now,
that can make a difference whether you're dealing with copper aluminum.
Aluminum as little. It's not as hard as copper, so
it's not as forgiving as it would be for copper,
although both can crush very easily. So you have to
follow torquevalues and tighter does not always mean better. Okay,
it's just important thing to remember that whether it's copper
or aluminum, you have a certain level of creep, you
have a certain level of relaxation from compression, and again
depending on how badly you compress it, and how it's
going to affect the lugging, the termination, and whether that
reliefs a little bit and you get an arc in
there and the product doesn't recover the same. Again, we
have to you have to be very careful. And that's
why torking is so important now. It's probably less impactful
for people on devices, for example, receptacles. If you backstab
a fourteen gauge into a fifteen ap rated receptacle that
allows backstabbing, then you ain't got to worry about torquing values.
Even if you hate backstabbing, you do it, or I
have to worry about it. But if you use the
screws on the side, you better worry about it. Now.
Do you worry about it? Do you use a torquing
screw driver every time? Probably not? And I'm not here
to badger you about it and preach to you about it.
You do, you boot, You do what you want to do.
But at the end of the day, if you see
a torque value on something, you're supposed to be torking
it to that value. That's what the manufacturers have submitted. Okay, Now,
in the previous code cycle, when it made reference to
calibrated torking tool that really caused a bunch of ripples
through the inspection industry. They were like, well, how the
hell do I make sure that this is done? I mean,
do a calibrated tool?
Speaker 2: I do?
Speaker 1: I have to have a certificate showing a current calibration?
Do I have to see that before every job? How
do I know they did? They're just showing me some
piece of paper. How do I know they actually torqued it,
right do I? All those type of things cost quite
a bit of a stir. And so the only thing
that's really changed here is that a calibrated torking tool
is just one approved method by the HJ. There are
other approved methods now. The informational note in one ten
dot fourteen D makes it very clear. It says examples
of approved means for achieving the indicated torque value include
torquing tools or devices such as sheer bolts or breakaway
style devices with visual indicators that demonstrate that the proper
torque has been applied that type of thing. Right, So
it's one of those things where people are like, okay,
I understand it now. Before one ten dot fourteen came
into play, so that's where we'll go next. People say, well,
what happened before one ten dot fourteen came into play,
because you know that was the big deal where people
were looking at it going, well, this didn't come into
play until it was adopted, right. And one of the
things that I think is important is to realize that
the calibrated torking tool requirement actually disappeared in the twenty twenty.
They put in some values and they add some words.
They add approved means. This is not new, folks. This
was in the twenty twenty edition. So the torque calibrated
torking tool was all the way back in the twenty
seventeen and people freaked out. That's not the case. So
it's been removed that part about it. But people say, well,
what happened before we got one ten dot fourteen? Well,
before one ten dot fourteen D the reference that you
would have used was one ten three B Because if
the manufacturer installs, gives you a product and they post
a torquing value on the side of the product, then
you're forced to follow it. Right. I'm just saying that's
the what you're supposed to do. So we could argue
that it was a violation of one ten three B
to not because what does one ten dot three B say?
It says equipment and the under the twenty twenty code,
it says equipment that is listed, labeled or both. Shall
I be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing and labeling. And remember, we don't
give you that information for wiring cable Okay, we don't
give you that. We just say follow the NEC. But
there are plenty of manufacturers for different things that have
torquing that's required. They will specifically give you values. And
this is the way it's always been. But it was
under one ten dot three B when they required it.
It just didn't really get broader for everybody until the
introduction of one ten dot fourteen D and then people
were like, oh, I get it. That type of thing.
So that's the thing, so you're required to tork it. Now,
how to deal with it. Here's how I deal with it,
to be honest with you, because I know, and I
tell this to people all the time, I know that
you're not going to be torquing every screwdriver, every screw
on a switch or device. I get it. I get it.
And as an inspector, I am probably not. I mean,
I don't have the time to check all those right,
but you should be doing your service connections. You should
be doing all feeder connections. You should make sure you
own a torquing wrench and a torque screwdriver. I'm not
saying this to increase the stock of husky, Okay, I'm
just saying I mean, hell, go buy one at Harbor Free.
They're fine, It's fine. You know people, harbor Free. It's
too cheap, dude, It's it's fine. Relax. So at the
end of the day, it's it's having some way to
show the inspector. Now again, what I used to tell
people was, you know, the inspector doesn't have time to
look at everything. So if you know your guys are
torking and doing it properly and following everything, then at
that point one of the things that you could do
is an AFFI David stating for you as the you know,
whoever's in charge of the job, the chief electrician, the
head electrician, the lead guy, whatever, stating that you're telling
the AHJ that you have personally witnessed or that you
know that all of the terminations are torqued in accordance
with one ten dot three B and one ten dot
fourteen d H and give that to the inspector and
let that be part of the record that type of scenario.
If that makes you feel better, if the inspector wants
to check everything. Did you know that there's a misconception
that if I torque something at thirty five inch pounds
or foot pounds whatever depending is, or one hundred and
fifty foot pounds or thirty five inch pounds whatever it is,
um or typically we're we're talking more like four to
six inch pounds and then we're talking foot pounds when
we get a lot higher either way. When you do that,
can remember that even if they come back to test
it later, you're not going to overtighten it because you're
going to set the torquing device if they want to
check you at the value that you say you torqued
it at, and it should snap at or about that vey.
It's certainly not going to put any more damage to it.
It's not going to tighten it any tighter unless you
just got a total malfunctioned tool, right, so typically it
should snap anyway. That's it's not going to cause any
undo damage. But tightening it and trying to make it
as tight as you can is not the answer. Everything
just needs to be torque properly. So if I was
giving you some advice on the process, then what I
would say is get your folks used to using them,
having them whatever they want to use, whatever design they
want to use. If they want to use a calibrated
torking tool, that's fine. It no longer says that it
has to be calibrated. Okay, the HJ could handle, could
accept it even if it's an uncalibrated torking tool. But
the end of the day, you know, it's one of
those things where I would get used to doing services.
I would do feeder connections if you're in a panel,
I would do breakers, and I would do lugs and
terminations onto the bus bars. I would do that while
I'm in the panel. Okay, you can get torquing screwdrivers
today that are just They work just like an eight
to one if you will, same kind of concept, and
they do fine. A husky one. I love my husky.
It works fine, and I use it in a panel.
I can't say I use it out in with receptacles.
And switches. Okay, I'm not gonna be a hypocrite here,
I just don't. I don't go that tight anyway. But
at the end of the day, I do use it
on panels when I'm working in a panel or something
like that. So again, that would be a good start.
That would be a good start. Okay, all right, all right,
hopefully that answers your question. Oh you ask about the
informtive ANX. I think that you did ask about that.
So what he's talking about there is how to apply
the informative ANX. So in your code you have what's
called an informive ANXI. It's not enforceable, it's not part
of any it's not part of any requirement. But it
is extracted information. Okay, that comes out of UL. So
it's out of UL four eighty six a dash for
eighty six bay. So a manufacturer, for example, could cite
this as where they get their torque values depending on
the different type of screw or whatever, or tightening torque
for slotted head screws or all those type of things.
So if you can't find any information from a manufacturer,
and you can't find any information on the equipment, then
this is an example where it may be acceptable and
the age J has got to show a little leeway
to say, you know what, will you let me use
these values based on the UL standard, And all that's
in the NEC is just a regurgitated copy and paste.
It's just really all part of a UL standard. But
it just means that I don't have to go buy
the UL for eighty six standard to do this, because
those standards are expensive. Okay. So at the end of
the day, if it's if you don't have proper information
from a manufacturer and you don't have it posted on
the equipment in the absence of a manufacturer's instructions, then
basically the torque values given in the tables that are
in the inform NXI. Okay, these little tables are recommended
because it's all based on documented information out of UL
underwriter's laboratory. Now, I can tell you point blank, I
don't know of any case except for really old equipment,
that I ever had to do that I could easily
get it for the manufacturer, or it was posted in
the equipment that type of thing. But maybe you're working
on something old, the labels are old and worn, and
you're adding another circuit to an old panel and you
can't find this information, and maybe that company originally is
not in business anymore, and you've got to make some
good sound judgments. Then possibly I would use these tables
and an in form of NXI, and I would present
this to the age J and say, look, this is
all we got. Man, he's certainly not going to make
you change the whole panel or something because of this.
He's like, dude, this is this is all I got,
So this is what I have to use. It makes
sense to me that type of thing. Also, be aware
that some companies that may be out of business may
be absorbed by other companies, like Schneider may have absorbed
other companies. Okay, I don't know whether you know that
or not, but Schneider still makes a the slotted style
Federal Pacific that's used in Canada. They still make that design.
I hear a lot of negative stuff about the design,
but stablock, but it's still being made, still used in
other countries. But at the end of the day, because
that company bought something, you might be able to reach
out to their technical support and they able to give
you that additional information so that you can torqu it
properly that type of thing. That's all we're saying. Okay,
all right, so that is it for that. Hopefully that
gave you some guidance on how to do it. I
would teach my guys to torque all service conductors, all
feeder conductors, and in anything within an enclosure that has
a stamped torque value on it, then I would do that. Now,
when it comes to the other stuff like switches and
receptacles and connectors and fittings, use your best judgment on that. Again,
steer away from tightening it down until you get white knuckles.
Let's put it that way, Okay, but make it tight
and kind of the best way they can do it. Now,
if you want to be a purist, then buy them
a torking screwdriver and torking wrenches and say this is
the only one you're gonna use. Okay, we'll see how
long that works out. But at the end of the day,
that's the best advice I can give you. Okay, all right,
that's it, folks. That's all we're gonna do for today's episode.
We covered two of them. It's been a while since
we've done some. Let's ask Paul. So hopefully you enjoy these.
If you want to submit something to me, all you've
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got something out of today's episode. Till next time, Stay safe,
God bless.
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