WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.839 You see, something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What what's going to happen? 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:15.519 What? 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:29.160 I help? And welcome to the Occult Rejects. I am 5 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.439 your guest host Jim and Ninja, and I'm here with 6 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.719 my boss Nick, the main man of the Occult Rejects, 7 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:41.119 and Lisa, the main mad scientist, and our guest tonight, 8 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:44.719 Absidari and Mont who is bringing us the flavor of 9 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.000 the Islands with some Caribbean folk magic. 10 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:58.840 That was great. You're hired. Thank you very much. I 11 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:00.399 really appreciate it, isna your fun. 12 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:03.960 Thank you for having me on. Jen, I'm really looking 13 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:08.680 forward to that episode. 14 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:13.319 So mad well, I am, yes, so yeah, I know, 15 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.239 I really was because at least I know this is 16 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:17.760 a well again a topic I don't know anything that 17 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:21.400 which seems to be quite often, but I know that 18 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:23.760 this is something that you're into yourself, Jen, so at least, 19 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.120 like you know, it's something that I knew that you get, 20 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:28.040 you know, some sort of fun out of covering as well. 21 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.480 So I'm really looking forward to this And Absidarian, man, 22 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:33.400 I'm really glad to have you back on again on 23 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.640 the show. It's always a pleasure to have you on 24 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.359 My man. Before we get it started. Just please plug 25 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:40.840 your show and let everybody know where they can find 26 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:41.280 you stuff. 27 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.000 Sure, thanks well, thanks again everyone for having me on. 28 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.760 I could be found on across social media networks. Apsidarian 29 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.120 or op Sidarian. Mott could also check out link Tree 30 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:55.560 and you know Absidaran on there as well. 31 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.400 I am most active or most most of my. 32 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:03.680 Content is on Facebook, Patreon, and a little bit of Gap. 33 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.480 I definitely recommend a lot of people to check out Gap. 34 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.199 People sleep on Gap, but there's just so much information 35 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.120 on Gap that you're not gonna find anywhere else. 36 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:13.400 But uh, I believe it at that. 37 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:13.960 You know what's funny. 38 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:15.759 I thought about going back on there again just every 39 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:17.199 once in a while because, believe it or not, back 40 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:18.560 in the day, when he should drop some of my 41 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.280 podcasts on my videos on there, it would actually get traction. 42 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.680 Yeah, especially like he hasn't been active in a while. 43 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:28.840 Yeah, so I have like maybe I can go on 44 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.080 like dropping in some of the groups or whatever. I 45 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:33.639 don't know, but there was one point where I did. 46 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:35.840 Actually I had a gab TV. Believe it or not, 47 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:37.960 we had gab TV at one point on a Cult 48 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.319 Rejects because we were actually getting so much some traction 49 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.240 on that platform, not anymore. 50 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:47.319 Yeah, it's a growing it's a grown social media network. 51 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:49.400 A lot of people are jumping on there as well. 52 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:50.199 Nice. 53 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:55.319 Nice, all right, So West Indian Magic, what's your thoughts 54 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:56.439 on that? Let's kick it off. 55 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:59.159 So all right, I'll start off. 56 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.000 I was I was born in Trinidad, and you know, 57 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.039 I go there a few times a year often, so 58 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.919 I'm very connected to you know, the history of the 59 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.680 folk tradition and it's so much to talk about. 60 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:12.000 So we'll talk about some of the. 61 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:18.400 Different streams today such as Obia Shango what is it 62 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:22.719 called baptism or like spiritual Baptist where they mixed the 63 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:28.360 Afro Christian tradition. I'll also talk about tons of real 64 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.360 life ghost experiences I've had. Some of the ghosts are 65 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:34.120 like you know, the vampires, like the Sukenya. We got 66 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.879 the lajab List, which is the female spirit that lures 67 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:41.000 men to walk across water. We got the dwnd unbaptized 68 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.439 children with backward feet that chases you in the forest. 69 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.439 We got the Papa Bois, which is the father protector 70 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.479 of the forest. A lot of hunters experienced this, uh, 71 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:52.000 this guardian of the forest per se. 72 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:53.360 There's also the gin. 73 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:56.159 Of course, the gin, you know that's not only limited 74 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:58.240 to the Caribbean, but the Gin has a presence there. 75 00:03:58.479 --> 00:03:59.919 With some of the Islamic magic. 76 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.599 We got the Cheryl, which is a female spirit that 77 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.919 died well given childbirth wonders in Limbo. Well, yeah, we 78 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:11.479 just we got a lot to chat about. So that's 79 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:12.599 what we could look forward today. 80 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.439 Gin, you want to add anything, I'll just say that. 81 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:21.160 Was like a really great intro. So my background, obviously 82 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.040 I've sat on the show before. My dad's Indonesian Chinese. 83 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.800 So you might think, well, how does Jin know anything 84 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.519 about West Indian poke magic. Well, there's actually a large 85 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:36.199 population of Indonesians from Guyana and Surinam who live in Toronto, 86 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.120 and so you just growing up, you just sort of 87 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.839 know them and then you kind of I realized very 88 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:48.160 early on that our folk tales are almost identical. You 89 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:52.120 can actually match one to one. A lot of the spirits, 90 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:55.519 particularly the female kind of like tree spirits, what we 91 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:59.480 would call like a pontianak, which is like a ghost 92 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:01.199 who lives in the trees, and it can be a 93 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:05.000 ghost of a woman who died in childbirth or Gunggang Sarah, 94 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:10.199 who is also appeers all over North Africa. So there's 95 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:16.319 like a clear kind of epistemology of these ghosts that 96 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.319 or these spirits are these kind of magical practices, and 97 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.480 a lot of the Islamic stuff that came from the 98 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:27.959 Transatlantic slaves from Mali actually is very similar to Indonesian 99 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.920 folk magic as it is practiced today, so there's a 100 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.160 great deal of overlap, and a lot of Indonesians in 101 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:40.199 the Netherlands as well as Canada practice obaya, so you 102 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.600 definitely have a lot of crossover. And then tantra, which 103 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.319 is obviously where I'm particularly strong in that there's a 104 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:53.199 layer of that in Trinidad, but also in Martinique, also 105 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:58.199 in Surnam, also in Guiana because of the large Cooley population, 106 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:03.639 which are ethnic South Asians, but there's also ethnic Chinese 107 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.839 groups who also engage in these praxices. So I've have 108 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.839 had exposure, both academically and just socially to a lot 109 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:17.720 of this insider, more quiet stuff. So and obviously one 110 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.439 of the first ways of any magician, I think even 111 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.240 Nix talked about this, when they first start out, where's 112 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.160 their first trip? Will they go to the spiritual supply store, 113 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.279 which are like Botanica supplies, which are very you know, 114 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.800 it's part of that continuum of like Mexican Cuban and 115 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:39.879 sort of like indigenous and Afro syncretic folk magic. So 116 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.240 it all kind of lives in this syncretic soup. So 117 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:48.000 that's pretty much where I'm gonna add to whatever outstarian 118 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.160 it doesn't add, and I will have a couple of 119 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.240 my own points. But I think it's gonna be really fun. 120 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:55.560 I'm really excited for this, and thank you guys so 121 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:56.480 much for inviting me. 122 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.680 Yeah, of course, thank you. I spake to us. 123 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.000 There, sure, all right, So I guess it's good to 124 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.600 define some of these terms so we know what we're 125 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:11.759 talking about. One of the most popular popular religious practices 126 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.560 is obia. So it has its background from West Africa, 127 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:19.720 and I don't know much about it, you know, other 128 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.639 than like secondhand sources, but it seems to be very decentralized, 129 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.279 as in, you know, there's no set doctrines, canons, deities. 130 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:28.839 It's just mixed based. 131 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.519 On the village or or you know, the local obia 132 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.800 mand or like the head guy. That's oral tradition that's 133 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:37.319 passed on in different practices of healing. 134 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:38.240 We're working with. 135 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.560 Magic, right, there's definitely a lot of black magic, but 136 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.319 you know, trying to hurt someone, trying to get rich, 137 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.120 you know, things of that nature. So obia is one 138 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:55.160 of the most popular black magic practices. And in turn 139 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:59.199 that it's a big melting pot because there's been so 140 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:07.399 much different influences throughout history, from the European British influence, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, 141 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:11.519 we have the Chinese, Islamic, we have African, we have 142 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.040 South Indian and other parts of India that came as 143 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:21.360 indentured servants after the slave trade. So my ancestors came 144 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.480 in the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds from India, 145 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.199 and you know, they couldn't speak English, and a lot 146 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:30.680 of them bought their their folk tradition with them, and 147 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.000 you know, and they it's what is it called mimesis 148 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.039 in anthropology, is just you know, it's a mixing of 149 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:43.240 different traditions to adapt to the current land. So there's 150 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:43.840 a lot of that. 151 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:44.759 There's a lot of mixing. 152 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.639 And another one that's popular, it's pretty powerful, is the 153 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:53.559 spiritual Baptists. It's you know, it's mixed of African tradition 154 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:59.159 and the Western Christian tradition, and yeah, very very powerful 155 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:03.440 some of the these traditions and history, a lot of 156 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:07.600 bloodshed in Trinidad, and to Jin's point, there is a 157 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.399 lot of common ground between the countries and islands in 158 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.480 that area, because yeah, I have I've tons of stories 159 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.559 of my family members traveling to Guyana and even some 160 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.159 from Surinam. Some I'm familiar with some of the similarities 161 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:25.960 in the tradition. I must say, there's something about that lant. 162 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.399 It's just so close to the equator and being close 163 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:31.039 to Amazon rainforest as well. 164 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:32.720 There's just really. 165 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:38.519 Powerful energy in this space. And then another tradition is 166 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:42.399 the Indian tradition from the indentured servants that came over 167 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:47.519 from India and in some ways, in my opinion, in 168 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.200 the West Indians meaning Indians that have been relocated to 169 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.440 the Caribbean and Guyana and South America, in some ways 170 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.120 they've they've kept the religion and heritage much strong or 171 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:04.600 than their East Indian counterparts. Because it's common in India 172 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:07.639 when the pundit or the priest is doing a. 173 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.639 Ritual or a pooja for you, you. 174 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.320 Just give them the money or you just give them 175 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.360 whatever offer and you have and he you know, you 176 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:16.360 don't touch the deity or you know, you don't go 177 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.320 really in the in the temple or whatever, but the 178 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:21.840 pundit does it for you. So it's very second hand source, 179 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:26.080 you need, you know, middleman. But in the Caribbean, the 180 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.120 West Indians a little bit different. They're more hands on. 181 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.720 They're fasting for twenty one days, thirty days, you know, 182 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:37.000 forty days even, and yeah, they're participating in these these poojas, 183 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.480 these rituals, which is a lot has to do with 184 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.600 like offerings of flowers. 185 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.159 And also there's I should I should clarify there's like 186 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:47.039 two types of worship. 187 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:50.879 One is the you know, the the right hand path 188 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.440 that they call it the sata worship, which is no blood, 189 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:57.759 you know, none of that, none of the dark stuff. 190 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:59.519 And then of course you got the left hand path, 191 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.240 which they're into like you know, animal sacrifices and things 192 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:08.799 of that nature. But yeah, it's just, uh, they're very 193 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.960 well connected, the West Indians in Trinidad, Guyana Surnam with 194 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:17.399 their tradition, they've they've kept the pronunciation of the mantras, 195 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.360 the the language some of them and the families, and 196 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.000 I always thought, wow, that's very interested. I would think 197 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:27.159 it would be the opposite that, you know, the motherland 198 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.360 India would hold you know, hold on to some of 199 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.519 these traditions in their own right, which they do in 200 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.200 certain instances. But uh, that was just an interesting observation 201 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:39.840 from the Indian background. 202 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.039 Jin can you can you you want to speak on anything? 203 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:45.879 Well, I thought you mean it, well, thank you. I 204 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.639 thought you made an incredible point about that, and I'm 205 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:50.919 glad you said that. And it's one hundred percent true 206 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:55.039 that because the Pujaris come from the family tradition. So 207 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:58.600 it's like lineages of priests. They're not necessarily Brahmins, right, 208 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.120 usually not. Maybe there are some, but they're not always Brahmins. 209 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.960 So they have more of a householder tradition where they 210 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.480 pass it on to their sons or their grandsons, and 211 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:12.840 so yeah, they do retain a lot more of that, 212 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.840 like it's more part of your lifestyle rather than a profession. 213 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.360 So in India, like a lot of the temple societies 214 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.399 are owned by the states now, so you have a 215 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.879 lot of government involvement in the temple, the running of 216 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:33.960 the temple financially, but also liturgically. So in these kinds 217 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:38.679 of like more diaspora situations, I guess they would follow 218 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.240 the original shastras, which are the prescriptions in the Piranhas 219 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.440 for how temple or ritual conduct should be performed in 220 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:52.360 the temple. So there are definitely different streams. Like Amstarian said, 221 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.360 there's like what we would call doction ontario, which is 222 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:58.080 like maybe they don't call it that, maybe they call 223 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.960 it more of the Vedantic method or that's more the 224 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.440 normative right handed method, but there's also a right handed 225 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.159 left handed method. That's what it starts to get a 226 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:12.039 little confusing. So it becomes important to be able to 227 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.840 discern and understand the deities that they are performing. Now 228 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.799 in my experience with people from t T and just 229 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.960 West Indies in general, even the Indians don't always make 230 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.320 a strong discernment between like some of the deities like 231 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.399 a Saraswati of Vedic goddess, she is much she is 232 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.679 Khalie like, it's the same thing for them. They don't 233 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:36.879 really make a huge distinction. But for a contric obviously 234 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:38.799 it gets a little more. You have to be a 235 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.000 little more. You have to use specificity in defining it. 236 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.840 Because then the mantra changes, the shastra, the worship style changes, 237 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:52.279 all it really matters. So I think for me, what 238 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.919 I really am interested in is they did preserve what 239 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.960 is quintessentially tntra at its core, which is a how 240 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.279 hold our tradition where you are practicing night time rituals, 241 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.879 but also maybe in charge of a shrine. So I 242 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.799 think that's really interesting. Just like from a history of 243 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.919 magic perspective, Can. 244 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:19.200 I interject really quickly? I wanted to say anthropologically, what 245 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:23.200 I have found, especially being you know, from South Texas, 246 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:27.879 is that I think a lot of when people were 247 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:34.759 having to assimilate outside of their cultural norm, to hold 248 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:38.919 on to their culture, their language, their their their food, 249 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.360 their belief system was existential for them, what kept them 250 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.919 saying and so I feel like there was more of 251 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:52.840 an emphasis to keep things so preserved back to what 252 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.320 they remember in order to carry on day to day. 253 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:01.639 And therefore I think you do have this preservation of 254 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:09.240 cultural origins in the Caribbean, especially the most and then 255 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.200 obviously within you know, Central and South America. I just 256 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:14.480 wanted to say that. 257 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:19.240 No, that's pep story and please go ahead. 258 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.320 Oh yeah, yeah, I was just a great point. 259 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.000 I just wanted to add to that that I've noticed 260 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.919 there's been a lot of you know, with the migration 261 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.759 from a lot of people from the Caribbean and South America, 262 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.519 they've bought that the same culture and traditions in America 263 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:37.879 because I was blown away the first time. I was 264 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:42.960 like around fifteen and in New York and my mom 265 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.840 got hit by a souconia, which is a vampire, and 266 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:47.600 I'm like, wait a minute, that's from turning that, Like 267 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.399 why are we seeing it? It was like sun, you know, 268 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:53.480 they bring they bring these things over here, and they're 269 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.399 continuing some of that stuff over here. So I was like, 270 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:57.519 I thought that was interesting. 271 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:01.879 Yeah. I also just wanted to add really quickly that 272 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.960 there is actually a tradition specifically preserved in the Caribbean. 273 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.799 Broad Caribbean, we'll say that is not very alive in India, 274 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.080 a contric tradition. So in Trinidad they would call the 275 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.519 deity d Baba and they would syncretize him to Saint 276 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.960 James the Morse Layer. So he rides a white horse. 277 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.240 He's like a warrior who rides a white horse. And 278 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:30.320 he's actually one of the seventy two a retinue deities 279 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:35.080 of bai Rava. But this tradition, which is obviously very 280 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.799 similar in some ways to probably people are thinking like 281 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.360 the lesser keis O Solomon or Goalesia. It is in 282 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:46.879 a way, but he is like a tutelary deity, protector 283 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.399 of the village. And in fact they would all hang 284 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.159 keys give him keys. They will lock the temple and 285 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.480 give him keys. But the point of my story is 286 00:16:55.480 --> 00:17:00.519 that this is only really found in villages in South India. 287 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.240 So although it used to be widespread throughout India, it 288 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.880 really only is preserved in like the south, in very 289 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:12.279 like small kind of rural, out of the way temples. 290 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.119 But this idea of the seventy two sort of time 291 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.359 kings or seventy two lower retinue figures of the time kings, 292 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.319 I think is really interesting for Western magicians just because 293 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.319 of the similarity and overlap and their dominion over things 294 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.039 like the forest. Like he brought up Papa Blah. Interestingly, 295 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.960 we also have Papa Bla in French Canada, so that's 296 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.000 really interesting. And we syncretize him with Saint John the Baptist, 297 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.519 so but not Saint John the Baptist as the elder Saint. 298 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.559 It's Saint John the Baptist as a little boy wearing 299 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.279 the hair shirt. It's very specific, so you'll see a 300 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.039 lot of like Maiti and indigenous men will do a 301 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.039 little prayer on certain things or give a little offering 302 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.920 of tobacco on certain trees specifically for this kind of 303 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.880 like Papa Ba or they call him other names to 304 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.759 they'll call him whiskey Jack or there's a variety of 305 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.880 trickster characters that are kind of syncretized together. But it 306 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.839 is interesting that we also have a character like that 307 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:14.920 in this. In the US, they also have a character 308 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.920 like this is Prayer Rabbit and sort of like the 309 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.799 Hi John or the Tjan character from Louisiana, And so 310 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.200 there's like an overlap between like what we would call 311 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.440 like the Johns. So like there's the John Ruth that's 312 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.039 often used in Hodoo. It's obviously like a epomia, it's 313 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:36.359 a morning glory, and so he has a root to 314 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.000 overcome all evil. There's a sort of spirit that has 315 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.279 like the power of healing and the plants and the 316 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:44.559 medicine of the forest, and then there's kind of like 317 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.960 a trickster spirit, but they're all on a continuum together thing. 318 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.640 That's kind of interesting, A. 319 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:53.640 Great, great point, Jen. 320 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.359 I'm really glad you mentioned because that was my list 321 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.960 of things to talk about. 322 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.960 H No, No, that's fine. 323 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:05.160 I'm adding I'm adding a few things onto that as well. 324 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.559 So I'm glad you mentioned him, and you brought up 325 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.319 some really good connections with the John. I'm the guardian 326 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.759 of the home, so I'd like to add a few 327 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:18.680 things about the de Baba. So, so the d Baba, Uh, 328 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.759 there's I'm familiar with. There's two ways of you know, 329 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:26.400 worshiping the debab. But there's the Suta way again. 330 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.680 That's like without the sacrifice or whatever. 331 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:29.160 It's just. 332 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.960 Maybe some rum and some cigarettes. And then there's the 333 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.960 other way, which is like a chicken. A lot of 334 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:41.119 people do the chicken once a year. And I found 335 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.960 it interesting because accounts of deep de Baba is one 336 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.039 of the accounts my my cousin's husband told me. And he's, 337 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.799 you know, he has like the he has the vision, 338 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.359 you know, the spiritual vision. He's like he sees them 339 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.240 often on he doesn't do it anymore. He's Christian, so 340 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.440 he's you know the people that did it before. You know, 341 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:05.000 my cousin's prior generation on the land they were they 342 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.440 were Hindu and uh he describes him how he describes 343 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.160 him as just like the hat man, like with the 344 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.200 brimmed hat, dark shadow, with the with the with the coat. 345 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.880 And I always I was like, wow, this is really interesting. 346 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.839 How there's that hat man connection there, not with the 347 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.559 like the evil eyes or anything, just watching over your home. 348 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.359 And my cousin's husband told me a few times he's 349 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:30.440 been awoken by this, uh, this dee baba hat man 350 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.640 figure when you know, there's like someone. 351 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:33.319 Trying to rob their home. 352 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.319 So he would catch it on the the surveillance camera. 353 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.200 So the dee baba is really interesting interesting as well 354 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:46.119 in that I have some experience with that. And you know, 355 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.400 in the States, I knew one of my friends, uh 356 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.279 he was doing the the de baba worship and uh 357 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.680 he was he was offering water to it. So it's 358 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.559 I've never seen that, and it's I don't know what 359 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.160 kind of adaption that is. But at the time, like 360 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.519 I was in his space with this, and you know, 361 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.640 I was doing a lot of prayer and fasting at 362 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.200 the time, so it was just like really this pure, 363 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:14.720 pure vibe and you know, my car alarm just just 364 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:17.599 started kept going off and going off and going off, 365 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.759 and and I'm hitting an alarm and like, wow, this 366 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:21.759 is this thing is just not going off. So let 367 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.400 me go check out the car. So I go outside 368 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:27.759 and once I get to the cars, it stops. And 369 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:30.640 I'm like, man, wow, something did not want me in 370 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:31.279 his space. 371 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.160 And I just I just something was off with what 372 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:35.759 he was doing. 373 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.799 And I just want to tie that into some of 374 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:43.720 the worship that has come down, like from from for instance, 375 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:48.279 Rudolf Steiner talks about how some folk spirits or ancestor 376 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.640 worship as it comes down, it becomes like either like 377 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.839 a dead eggregor so like it's not charged, or people 378 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:58.920 aren't giving it power, or it could become what's the word, 379 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.960 like a vampire like so it feeds, it starts to feed, so. 380 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.319 It changes the egre. 381 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.680 So I saw a connection with that and just my 382 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.480 spiritual insight that this was something that has the appearance 383 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.079 of Bairav, a form of Bairav like Jin said, and 384 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.519 in the Dibaba iconography, you know on the on the image, 385 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.160 which is a form of Shiva, by the way, But 386 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.920 what I understood about Deebaba he was a folk hero 387 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:28.160 in India that that you know, that began to be 388 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:29.240 worshiped as well. 389 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:30.759 So yeah, I just. 390 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.680 Wanted to mention that, you know, things that come down 391 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:36.559 to us now, it's not always how it was worshiped 392 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.319 or how it is. 393 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.440 In the current stream. 394 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.920 I'll add a little quick note to that is that 395 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.039 so in India he would be considered like a Kistra Paula, 396 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.119 So we have the exact we have the same idea 397 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.799 in contrac Buddhism. At Kistra Paula, it just means field protector. 398 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.960 Just so the two words put together, that's how sounds 399 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.759 great usually works. And so he is considered to live 400 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.000 on the land. So I thought that was really interesting 401 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.000