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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>March tenth, twenty twenty five, and I'm the host of

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<v Speaker 1>the show, Doctor Kara Santa Maria. I am just getting

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<v Speaker 1>over COVID, so I'm a little bit sniffy. I apologize

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<v Speaker 1>if you can hear it in my voice, that is why.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm feeling much much better. I'm finally testing negative.

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<v Speaker 1>I have emerged into the world again after many, many

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<v Speaker 1>days of being trapped inside of my house. So I

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<v Speaker 1>am appreciative of that. I'm appreciative that I've gotten better,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm appreciative that my infection was not too bad

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<v Speaker 1>due to the wonder of vaccines. Thank you science. Before

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<v Speaker 1>we get into this week's episode, I do want to

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<v Speaker 1>thank those of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember,

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<v Speaker 1>talk Nerdy. I highly recommend using the browser based version

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<v Speaker 1>of the website instead of subscribing through an app. On

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<v Speaker 1>of the big phone manufacturers who has their own app

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<v Speaker 1>you do that. So you can get around that by

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<v Speaker 1>just subscribing through the website version. All right. This week's

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<v Speaker 1>top patrons include Anubadavaje, Daniel Lang, David J. E. Smith,

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<v Speaker 1>Mary Neiva, Brian Holden, David Compton, Gabriel F. Harmio, Joe Wilkinson,

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph Lemore, Pasquale, ge Latti, Rica Mahraj and Ulrika Hagman.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you all so so very much. All right, let's

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<v Speaker 1>get into it. So this week I had the opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>to speak with doctor Lauren E. Oakes. She's a conservation

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<v Speaker 1>scientist and of course a science writer. She's held various

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<v Speaker 1>appointments at Stanford University over many many years as a researcher,

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<v Speaker 1>a lecturer, and an adjunct assistant professor in the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Earth System Science. Her previous book was called In

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<v Speaker 1>Search of the Canary Tree, and she has a new

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<v Speaker 1>book out called tree Keepers, The Race for a Forested Future. So,

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<v Speaker 1>without any further ado here she is doctor Lauren eos

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<v Speaker 1>Well Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>So I am really excited to talk about your new book,

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<v Speaker 1>Tree Keepers, the Race for a Forested Future. But as

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<v Speaker 1>always on talk nerdy Before we dive into the content

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<v Speaker 1>of this book and some of the kind of I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, debunking some mythology and things like that, I

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<v Speaker 1>would love to learn a little bit more about you

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<v Speaker 1>and how you came to write this book. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>reading different bios of you on the internet, sometimes you're

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<v Speaker 1>sort of referred to as a conservation scientist. Sometimes you're

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<v Speaker 1>referred to as an ecologists. Like what did you study

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<v Speaker 1>in school?

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<v Speaker 2>What are you? Yeah? Yeah, the language kind of morphs,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. But my training I was in the interdisciplinary

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<v Speaker 2>Environmental science program at Stanford. I received my PhD there.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that makes sense. Then it was interdisciplinary, so of course.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but we did have what they call fields of depth,

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<v Speaker 2>so mine where ecology and land change science, mainly in

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<v Speaker 2>forest ecology, looking at how forests are impacted by climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>how forests respond, and species that regenerate in the wake

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<v Speaker 2>of forest mortality. I can tell you a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>about that, and then I have also done a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of research and land change science, so looking at land use,

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<v Speaker 2>land change, drivers of land use and land change. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's really thinking about the relationship between people and how

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<v Speaker 2>our landucio systems are managed.

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<v Speaker 1>So interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that label

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<v Speaker 1>before land change science. And so is it is it historical,

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<v Speaker 1>is it future oriented or do you kind of look

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<v Speaker 1>at both what has happened in the past to inform

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<v Speaker 1>how to make decisions about the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, land change scientists again draw from a number of disciplines,

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<v Speaker 2>but are really looking at the drivers of land use change,

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<v Speaker 2>and they may be focusing on biophysical changes. So a

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<v Speaker 2>land change scientist could be a geographer who's working a

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<v Speaker 2>lot with remotely remotely sensed data to look at Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>here's point A or time period A, and this was

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<v Speaker 2>what the landscape looked like. And here's time period B,

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<v Speaker 2>and now it's forest was cleared or there's a new

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<v Speaker 2>development here, or something is changed in this landscape. And

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<v Speaker 2>then usually there's a level of research to look at,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what happened in that place, whether it's social

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<v Speaker 2>science to assess, you know, what was happening in the

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<v Speaker 2>communities or policy. Maybe there's a larger policy in the

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<v Speaker 2>area that's helping drive some land use change. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's inter disciplinary field and you know, has been around

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<v Speaker 2>for a number of years.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and obviously that training and that interest area heavily

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<v Speaker 1>informs your writing, and especially this book that we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to focus on a little bit more. Not that we

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<v Speaker 1>have to you know, focus on it the whole interview,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm curious just so that we do you have

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<v Speaker 1>like operational definitions early on And this is my ignorance

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<v Speaker 1>here when as a land change scientist, when you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about you know, transformation of the landscape, do you make

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<v Speaker 1>a differentiation between like intentional impacts and unintentional impacts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my focus has largely been in forest ecosystems, as

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<v Speaker 2>you know, but our species relationships are constantly evolving and

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<v Speaker 2>forests are always changing. So there are you know, changes

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<v Speaker 2>in flux that may be naturally occurring. But then there

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<v Speaker 2>are the drivers you know, or of our human footprint

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<v Speaker 2>and in you know, recent years, this age of anthroposceine,

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<v Speaker 2>those changes may be contributed to maybe attributed to climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>or they may be attributed to you know, direct land conversion.

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<v Speaker 2>When you get a development in an area or a

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<v Speaker 2>clearing of a forest. A lot of people in my

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<v Speaker 2>lab group when I was at Stanford were focusing on,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of the hot spots of deforestation, looking

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<v Speaker 2>at a lot of forest degradation in the Amazon in Kungo,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out what are effective ways to manage

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<v Speaker 2>those lands better. And so you opened with the question

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<v Speaker 2>of am I a conservation scientist, you know, and really

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<v Speaker 2>a conservation scientist has the goal of, you know, sustaining

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<v Speaker 2>a functioning natural world. And so yes, I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I am a conservation scientist as well. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>my interest is you know, as a researcher and really

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<v Speaker 2>more as a practitioner. I've worked a lot with local

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<v Speaker 2>organizations that are experiencing changes in their area as a

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<v Speaker 2>result of climate change or as a result of development,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're thinking about, you know, how do we manage

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<v Speaker 2>these systems better?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And that word management, I think is important for

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<v Speaker 1>maybe folks who are listening to this conversation who haven't

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<v Speaker 1>thought about what we're about to dive into as deeply,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I'm going to have a lot of very naive

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<v Speaker 1>questions here, because even though it's something that I have

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<v Speaker 1>thought about it, and I have interviewed people about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I have worked with individuals on topics in these areas.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not an area where I have even a modicum

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<v Speaker 1>of expertise, and I'm curious, you know, just to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of push maybe not the point, but the question a

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<v Speaker 1>little deeper. One thing that I'm always fascinated by is

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<v Speaker 1>how we label things, how we categorize things, sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the constructs that feel relevant to us. And we often think,

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<v Speaker 1>because it is the anthropathy and right, everything we do

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<v Speaker 1>has a consequence, and it's a large consequence, because human

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<v Speaker 1>beings are massive drivers of change on this planet. But

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time, there is often a management component

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<v Speaker 1>to the work that we do and intentionality. If we

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<v Speaker 1>choose to do this, we're hoping that these things will

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<v Speaker 1>follow versus, Oh, I'm just doing what I do and oops, oops,

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<v Speaker 1>look what happened as a result of that. And so

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious, sort of land management scientists, or even with

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<v Speaker 1>you in your writing, do you make firm distinctions between

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<v Speaker 1>those things or is that a very fuzzy line.

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<v Speaker 2>Between the intention It sounds like the intentionality, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm doing this and I'm doing it on purpose.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say in most cases, the and the breadth

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<v Speaker 2>of projects I've worked on now in you know, well

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<v Speaker 2>three continents, really a lot in Latin America, North America,

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<v Speaker 2>I've spent some time in Indonesia. There is an external

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<v Speaker 2>driver of change, be that climate change, be that a

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<v Speaker 2>company coming in and the citing you know, purchasing land

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<v Speaker 2>that they want to convert for ag purposes. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>those are just a couple examples, and then the local

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<v Speaker 2>community or the local people there are impacted in some

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<v Speaker 2>way and want something different. There's an intention from you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the outside developer, but that may be a different intention

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<v Speaker 2>than what a community wants or needs, you know, in response.

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<v Speaker 2>But I also think more and more and we can

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it as we get into you know, tree

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<v Speaker 2>keeping and tree keepers. We need those parties coming together,

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<v Speaker 2>and parties are coming together to think about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how do we use land and productive ways while also

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<v Speaker 2>keeping trees, and how do we make the tree keeping

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<v Speaker 2>you know, financially viable. And then it's not you know

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<v Speaker 2>that then it's like a collective intention. Everybody's after the

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<v Speaker 2>same goal.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, right, And that's probably where a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>difficulties come in. Is when there are multiple sort of

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<v Speaker 1>parties involved, and sometimes those parties aren't even people, right,

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<v Speaker 1>they're the people who are speaking for shall we say,

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<v Speaker 1>the animals or the you know, the other other forms

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<v Speaker 1>of the local ecology. So there are multiple parties involved,

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<v Speaker 1>and sometimes their goals are not aligned, and sometimes they're

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<v Speaker 1>in direct kind of opposition to one another, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>probably where things start to get a bit complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And and so I'm going to put a final

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<v Speaker 1>kind of button on this point before we get into

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<v Speaker 1>the specifics of tree keepers and of trees especially. I

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<v Speaker 1>was asking about these sort of intentional consequences versus these

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<v Speaker 1>unintentional consequences, but very often because the globe is a

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<v Speaker 1>closed system, I don't even know how to put words

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<v Speaker 1>into this, probably because it's early, probably because I have

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<v Speaker 1>like COVID brain fog right now. But like you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>how like climate change is always going to have an

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<v Speaker 1>impact right on a local ecological system. And then maybe, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>an intentional forest clear Let's say somebody's like mining for

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<v Speaker 1>gold and they're clearing a portion of the forest. We

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<v Speaker 1>see this all the time in the Amazon, and then

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<v Speaker 1>obviously they're going to be intentional consequences of that. But

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately that very clearing of that forest for the gold

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<v Speaker 1>mining is also contributing to climate change, which is then

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<v Speaker 1>driving another layer of impact. Right, So a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>times these things end up kind of building on themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>don't they for sure?

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<v Speaker 2>And in land change scientists and people are doing this research.

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<v Speaker 2>We talk a lot about feedback, so you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>just a constant cycle of what we are doing as

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<v Speaker 2>people to the environment, what's the environment, how the environment

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<v Speaker 2>then responds as well as you know, these external forces

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<v Speaker 2>beyond you know, which which maybe climate change in others.

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<v Speaker 1>Very often when I speak with science writers on the show,

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<v Speaker 1>which I would say make up a pretty large component

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<v Speaker 1>of the individuals that I interview on Talk Nerdy, are

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<v Speaker 1>scientists slash science writers or some kind of combination of

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<v Speaker 1>the two. I'm I'm always curious how you decided to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of focus on this specific project. For many people,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a culmination of like years of their research interests. Yes, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but what I guess I'm curious a big question, which

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<v Speaker 1>is what were you hoping when you sat down to say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to work on this book. What kind of

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<v Speaker 1>questions were you trying to answer or stories were you

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<v Speaker 1>trying to tell? And then by the end of it,

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<v Speaker 1>did you end up where you started or did it

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<v Speaker 1>become a totally different project than you intended?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, starting with all the big questions, right,

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<v Speaker 2>we should get back to we should get back to

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<v Speaker 2>why I write. You know, it's like an interesting mix too,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're a scientist and a writer. Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>I think at the big picture, you know, I love storytelling.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like there's a lot of research and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>positive action out there that doesn't get you know, media coverage.

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<v Speaker 2>And I really enjoy the process of taking what I

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<v Speaker 2>consider to be problem solving, problem solving research or people

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<v Speaker 2>doing really innovative things in communities to help the environment

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<v Speaker 2>and therefore help themselves, and telling about that work. So

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<v Speaker 2>in my career has been kind of a mix of

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<v Speaker 2>going back and forth between them doing research, applied research,

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<v Speaker 2>working with communities on land, these changes that they're experiencing,

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<v Speaker 2>how do we manage those systems better? And then also

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<v Speaker 2>the writing part. So I kind of go in and out.

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<v Speaker 2>And I obviously just spent a couple of years with

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<v Speaker 2>my head down. But why did I go into hoping. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you a little bit of the origins how

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<v Speaker 2>I got interested in.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, please, yeah, yeah, there's kind of what I would asking.

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<v Speaker 1>In the least direct way possible.

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<v Speaker 2>I touched upon forest mortality. So my PhD focused on

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<v Speaker 2>a tree species, yellow seater kellichopsist new contensus. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>magnificent species in the Pacific Northwest and in parts of Alaska.

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<v Speaker 2>It's dying because of climate change. And I was looking

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<v Speaker 2>at how those forest communities, how the other species in

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<v Speaker 2>that ecosystem respond after the death of this tree, and

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<v Speaker 2>also thinking about and researching, doing a lot of social

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<v Speaker 2>science research, interviewing people in communities. How are they responding

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<v Speaker 2>to the loss of this tree, Are they managing their

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<v Speaker 2>forests any differently, how are they impacted, and how are

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<v Speaker 2>their lives affected. It sounds like a pretty depressing topic,

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<v Speaker 2>but I actually found it quite hopeful, which is actually

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<v Speaker 2>why so my first book cul was called In Search

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<v Speaker 2>of the Canary Tree and came out of this research.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I had gone to Alaska at the

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<v Speaker 2>time to do this work because I thought of it

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<v Speaker 2>as like the front lines of climate change, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Rewind you know, two thousand and nine to twenty ten,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven. When I was doing this research, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we weren't experiencing the amount of wildfires and other impacts

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<v Speaker 2>that we're experiencing in the West now, but they were

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<v Speaker 2>certainly predicted. And you know, warming in the northern latitudes

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<v Speaker 2>were you know twice, if not three times the global averages.

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<v Speaker 2>So from my philosophical and scientific perspective, you know, Alaska

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<v Speaker 2>and the northern latitudes were kind of a looking glass

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<v Speaker 2>into the future. But coming out of that research, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>both the work that I was doing for my PhD

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<v Speaker 2>and writing in Search of the Canary Tree, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I had been thinking so much about loss and also

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<v Speaker 2>seeing communities come together to adapt, seeing species respond in

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<v Speaker 2>positive ways other species, seeing changing but flourishing forests. I

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<v Speaker 2>was thinking about regrowth and you know, where are there

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<v Speaker 2>places in the world where that have experienced, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a real decline in forest cover, but then something turned around.

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<v Speaker 2>Now they're increasing. This was you know, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 2>There were countries on my radar at the time known

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<v Speaker 2>for what's called a forest transition, going from loss to forrest,

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<v Speaker 2>gain Bhutan, Chile, Costa Rica, Vietnam. Those were a few

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<v Speaker 2>that had my attension. But then I was also thinking about,

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<v Speaker 2>well could this happen in a global scale like here,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as both a scientist studying land use change,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, well read person reading about our environmental narratives,

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<v Speaker 2>really reading our environmental narratives across the world as a

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<v Speaker 2>story of loss. But I wanted the optimistic story of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, could we turn it around? What would turn

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<v Speaker 2>it around around? That same time, in twenty nineteen, a

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<v Speaker 2>study came out in the journal Science. It was led

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<v Speaker 2>by a scientist at Eth Zurich named Jactually he was

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<v Speaker 2>a senior author, Tom Crowther, and another scientist, John Franzwambastam,

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<v Speaker 2>who was the lead, and they were looking at it

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<v Speaker 2>was called the Global Tree Restoration Potential, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>essentially looking at how much more forest could the world support,

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<v Speaker 2>and they came up with about a trillion trees it

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<v Speaker 2>was one point two And then what they also did

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<v Speaker 2>was estimated the amount of carbon those trees could store.

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<v Speaker 2>It hit the media big. I mean, you know, everyone

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<v Speaker 2>who's a scientist would love to get in science, the

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<v Speaker 2>journal Science, and not all those studies, you know, get

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of media and this one had about you know,

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<v Speaker 2>seven hundred media articles published soon after.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was kind of like, plant all these trees

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll save our planet.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and part of it was Tom Crowther has since said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I made a mistake in the communications, like

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't really think that if I just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if I said planting, everyone would think if I said restoration,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone would only think planting. You know. In truth, the

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<v Speaker 2>work of one point two trillion trees or one trillion

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<v Speaker 2>trees is about tree keeping and the places that we

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<v Speaker 2>have trees now is about growing the forests out that

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<v Speaker 2>aren't mature yet, and yes, about you know, planting, but

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<v Speaker 2>planting is only a part of that. And it also

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<v Speaker 2>took off because it seemed, you know, well, first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>every not every, but mostly everybody really likes trees. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we have a long affinity for trees

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<v Speaker 2>being in and around them. It's not necessarily a controversial issue.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you had oil and gas companies and like

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<v Speaker 2>total standing up saying you know, here's the commitment we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to make to forests, to trees. The problem and

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<v Speaker 2>where it became a bit dangerous, as some scientists said,

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<v Speaker 2>or quoted was that some people thought it would alleviate

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<v Speaker 2>the need to reduce fossil fuels, and that is not true.

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<v Speaker 2>Like the first and foremost thing we need to do

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<v Speaker 2>if you're addressing climate change is reduce their fossil fuel consumption.

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<v Speaker 2>And then yes, trees, you know, have a role to

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<v Speaker 2>play for carbon sequestration, but of course there are other

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<v Speaker 2>gases that are also contributing. So so as we dig deeper,

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<v Speaker 2>you can see it's quite complicated. But I but I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to Basically, there were a lot of media headlines

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<v Speaker 2>around that time. You know, you can still do it

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<v Speaker 2>if you google like tree planting and climate and you'll

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<v Speaker 2>see headlines, you know, saying this is an incredible climate solution,

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<v Speaker 2>some saying it won't work. You know, tree plantings failed,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know they're all seven hundred to fifteen hundred

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<v Speaker 2>word articles. I wanted to take a deep dive into

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<v Speaker 2>the complexities and into the topic of you know, to

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<v Speaker 2>really what extent can tries save us and how? And

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<v Speaker 2>that was the motivation for this project. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>interested in the answer to that question. But I was

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<v Speaker 2>also really interested in the journey, like what would I

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<v Speaker 2>learn along the way by trying to answer that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think that's obviously. I mean, you know

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<v Speaker 1>it better than most. That's so important when we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about good quality science writing is we have to have

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<v Speaker 1>that journey. We have to hear that story, because without

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<v Speaker 1>the story, what we're hearing are a bunch of facts

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<v Speaker 1>and figures, and it's very.

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<v Speaker 2>Easy to sort of so overwhelming.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, forget them, or yeah, we get overwhelmed by them,

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<v Speaker 1>We forget you use context, Yeah, exactly, it's like, oh wait,

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<v Speaker 1>more or less I can't remember, right, But once we

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<v Speaker 1>anchor it into narrative, it starts to become meaningful to us.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I guess like that is the big question here, right,

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<v Speaker 1>is it's not so simple as we often think it

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<v Speaker 1>is when we are scrolling and we just read a

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<v Speaker 1>media headline. It's not just plant more trees and everything's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be fine, or you know, maintain the force

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<v Speaker 1>that we already have and everything's going to be fine,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's more complicated than that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and everybody likes black and white, you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>Tom Crowther said to me at one point, like there

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<v Speaker 2>were all these sexy headlines. You know, plant trees, don't

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<v Speaker 2>plant trees like how do you make a sexy headline

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<v Speaker 2>out of the gray between? You know, it's difficult. I

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<v Speaker 2>guess I made a book instead.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's interesting that you chose to title. And I

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<v Speaker 1>know that we don't always the titles of our books

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<v Speaker 1>are not always our first choice. They're not always our choice.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's interesting that ultimately, let's say we landed on

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<v Speaker 1>this title, which does seem to emphasize the keeping of

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<v Speaker 1>the trees over the planting of the trees.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and that it points to both the need to

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<v Speaker 2>keep the forests that we have currently standing, and also

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to invest in and figure out how to

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<v Speaker 2>keep the ones we're planting. You know, it's an active,

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<v Speaker 2>long term stewardship if you want to get the benefits

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<v Speaker 2>that a tree can provide. And I'm not just talking

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<v Speaker 2>about carbon. We should chat about all the other benefits

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<v Speaker 2>that trees provide. But you know that doesn't come in

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<v Speaker 2>the first the initial act. Sure, there are some benefits

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<v Speaker 2>that come short term, and also, you know, evidence showing

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<v Speaker 2>they have an effect on people engaged in the restorative work.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's an active healing or probably a positive

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<v Speaker 2>effect on our mental state from doing that work. Right

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<v Speaker 2>in the short term or that day you spent tree planting.

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<v Speaker 2>But really, if you want the benefits for those trees,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to keep them into the future. And that

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<v Speaker 2>is the great challenge. I did keep. I did pick

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<v Speaker 2>the title, but it took a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh nice, nice, nice, nice, I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not I think there was some like youth mystery

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<v Speaker 2>novel or something that came out right before that had

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<v Speaker 2>the name tree Keepers and my Heart's than to the floor,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wrote those.

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<v Speaker 1>Different genre, a different genre, different part of the bookstore, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>different subheading, yeah, for sure. So so I think that

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<v Speaker 1>obviously points to an important next question, which is, let's

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<v Speaker 1>get into it right, let's talk a little bit about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the benefits that trees confer, because I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if you were to ask me straight up,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say some of the things that you mentioned, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>sequester carbon large scale maybe respiration right, like and in

401
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<v Speaker 1>that that the sequestration of carbon shade, like you know,

402
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<v Speaker 1>I think about urban planning, so like it makes it

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<v Speaker 1>literally colder underneath where the trees are than places that

404
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<v Speaker 1>are just concrete. Like that's important, but like what else,

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<v Speaker 1>there's probably a bunch of stuff in the soil that

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<v Speaker 1>the trees are like managing for there's probably a lot

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<v Speaker 1>that I don't know is going on with these trees.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure, And I think, you know, there's some interesting

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<v Speaker 2>studies coming out now even looking at the effects of

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<v Speaker 2>trees and you know, the percentage of tree cover or

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<v Speaker 2>forest cover in proximity to agricultural lands like or integrated

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<v Speaker 2>with that those trees can play a really critical role

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<v Speaker 2>in restoring the soils underneath, you know. So when you

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<v Speaker 2>hear these arguments of is it only ag or is

415
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<v Speaker 2>it only forest, and you know, actually the ag needs

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<v Speaker 2>the forest. You know, if we cleared all our forests

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<v Speaker 2>and just tried to make farmland everywhere, like, it's not

418
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.079
<v Speaker 2>going to work for a lot of reasons.

419
00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.000
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, why not mix them, right, why not have

420
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:43.920
<v Speaker 1>dual use?

421
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there's you know, studies showing that in some places,

422
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.759
<v Speaker 2>in many places you you actually see an increase in

423
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:54.359
<v Speaker 2>productivity because of those restorative properties that the trees serve

424
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.599
<v Speaker 2>through their you know, root structures, through the communities fungal

425
00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:01.359
<v Speaker 2>and microizi they have underneath and so on. But actually

426
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I think you know, for me, you mentioned it a

427
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.720
<v Speaker 2>little bit, but the urban setting. You know, as an

428
00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:11.440
<v Speaker 2>ecologist who spend a lot of time in remote forests researching,

429
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.720
<v Speaker 2>this chapter on urban forestry was actually, you know, one

430
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>of the most eye opening to me because you know,

431
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:22.480
<v Speaker 2>these are the places where more people, you know, on

432
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.960
<v Speaker 2>a per capita basis come in contact with trees on

433
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.400
<v Speaker 2>a daily basis than these you know, remote, relatively pristine,

434
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.720
<v Speaker 2>intact forests that we've talked about, and so yeah, you've

435
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.000
<v Speaker 2>an enormous cooling effect. There's some studies coming out of

436
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.079
<v Speaker 2>Portland showing neighborhood with a well canopied neighborhood as you

437
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.160
<v Speaker 2>might call it, compared to a neighborhood without as many

438
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.039
<v Speaker 2>trees or without a good tree cover, can be twenty

439
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.000
<v Speaker 2>degrees cooler in the summer. Now, think about you know,

440
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.079
<v Speaker 2>the effects for the community members there, if you have

441
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:58.079
<v Speaker 2>elderly community members, economic effects if you're turning on fans

442
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.160
<v Speaker 2>or air conditioners to to cool.

443
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, kids playing outside, like just the health and wellness

444
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.440
<v Speaker 1>of the children, Yeah, that's huge.

445
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:12.920
<v Speaker 2>There have been studies showing correlation, so not causation, but

446
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:18.839
<v Speaker 2>still correlation. Some interesting findings on tree cover and test

447
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.319
<v Speaker 2>scores of kids in schools that have more tree cover

448
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.359
<v Speaker 2>that one of the most seminal studies that kind of

449
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:30.960
<v Speaker 2>kicked off some of this research on how trees affect

450
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:36.000
<v Speaker 2>our psychology and mental processing or studies by a psychologist

451
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Roger Erlick in the nineteen eighties, and he found that

452
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.799
<v Speaker 2>simply having a view of nature can accelerate accelerate healing

453
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:46.480
<v Speaker 2>and recovery time for hospital patients. And now there's you know,

454
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:50.480
<v Speaker 2>I talked with researchers this was actually really fascinating study

455
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.000
<v Speaker 2>going out and trying to look at how the terpenes

456
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 2>that you breathe in. So if you're in a forest,

457
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 2>you can smell these, you know, I if you find

458
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:04.039
<v Speaker 2>yourself walking in a yeah, just a relatively intact forest,

459
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.880
<v Speaker 2>secondary primary, there's a smell. I find it does have

460
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.119
<v Speaker 2>a calming effect, you know. And there are practices what

461
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.359
<v Speaker 2>we call forest bathing and other cultures. And now there's

462
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:19.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, Western science is trying to understand like does

463
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:21.799
<v Speaker 2>that smell or do those terpenes, those compounds that are

464
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.519
<v Speaker 2>in the air have a calming effect on our brains. Anyways,

465
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.279
<v Speaker 2>we could talk for a long time about benefits. There

466
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:32.640
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of them also, you know, in communities,

467
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.119
<v Speaker 2>in urban settings, there have been some studies showing that

468
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:38.880
<v Speaker 2>they are associated with reduced crime. You think about it

469
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.279
<v Speaker 2>as more people are out in the neighborhood, you want

470
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.559
<v Speaker 2>to go take a walk through that green space. There

471
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.519
<v Speaker 2>are more eyes out in the community than there would

472
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:47.680
<v Speaker 2>be without it.

473
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.240
<v Speaker 1>And it is important that you mentioned too that, like

474
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.200
<v Speaker 1>some correlation does not necessarily mean causation, because we do

475
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:59.440
<v Speaker 1>see this complicated interplay between socioeconomic status, between povery and

476
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.000
<v Speaker 1>try cut right that in the poorest neighborhoods we see

477
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.200
<v Speaker 1>the most concrete and in the most affluent neighborhoods we

478
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.960
<v Speaker 1>see the most tree cover, and so you know, but

479
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:13.279
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't necessarily mean that working towards a let's say,

480
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:17.279
<v Speaker 1>in some cases it might be an dependent variable working

481
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.960
<v Speaker 1>towards changing the dependent variable may have a sort of

482
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.240
<v Speaker 1>feedback loop on the independent variabile like you never know.

483
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the inequities are you know, really very much overlaid.

484
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.400
<v Speaker 2>And there's been some interesting work in the US and

485
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:35.480
<v Speaker 2>in Europe to assess, you know, our equitable or inequitable

486
00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:37.759
<v Speaker 2>distribution of trees. If you go to Seattle, where I

487
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.440
<v Speaker 2>spend some time, you know, I think averages around twenty

488
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:43.359
<v Speaker 2>three or twenty four percent tree cover. Wow, that sounds great.

489
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.839
<v Speaker 2>That's pretty good. There are some really magnificent shaded streets

490
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.400
<v Speaker 2>you can walk down with a beautiful canopy above you.

491
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.160
<v Speaker 2>But it's not that way everywhere, and there are certainly

492
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.319
<v Speaker 2>pockets with far less than that. And then you're right,

493
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>they are overlaid with other challenges and they tend to

494
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.640
<v Speaker 2>be in poorer areas.

495
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.559
<v Speaker 1>All right, everyone, I want to take a quick break

496
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:11.680
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497
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498
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499
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500
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501
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502
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503
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504
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505
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506
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507
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508
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509
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510
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511
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:08.759
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512
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:10.759
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513
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:13.400
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514
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:17.519
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515
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516
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517
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:31.119
<v Speaker 1>framed dot com. All right, everyone, let's get back to

518
00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:34.960
<v Speaker 1>the chef. And even here, like I think about Los

519
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.240
<v Speaker 1>Angeles where we're like such an interesting urban area because

520
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:43.240
<v Speaker 1>we're massive compared to how most urban areas are very

521
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:46.039
<v Speaker 1>like condensed into a small space. We're very sprawling, right

522
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.279
<v Speaker 1>and very spread out here, and so you have every

523
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.119
<v Speaker 1>different type of neighborhood. And in Los Angeles a lot

524
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:53.680
<v Speaker 1>of people do live in houses. We have a lot

525
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.400
<v Speaker 1>of apartment living as well, but kind of a higher

526
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.680
<v Speaker 1>than I think average for an urban area or a

527
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 1>large urban center number of single family homes with you know,

528
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:05.839
<v Speaker 1>land around them and we have all these initiatives, and

529
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:08.319
<v Speaker 1>so obviously I'm jumping around a little bit, but I

530
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:10.559
<v Speaker 1>see all these initiatives here in LA, from you know,

531
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:15.000
<v Speaker 1>our local museum to local nonprofit organizations like just giving

532
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.799
<v Speaker 1>trees away, especially in lower income areas, saying like here's

533
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:20.519
<v Speaker 1>some trees. Just you want a tree, here's a tree

534
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.640
<v Speaker 1>you want to plant in your yard, take it for free,

535
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.400
<v Speaker 1>take care of this tree. We want more trees out there,

536
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:27.720
<v Speaker 1>and we can't, like we don't have the budget or

537
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>the funding or for whatever reason from a municipal perspective,

538
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.680
<v Speaker 1>we're not always prioritizing city planning here, right, So like

539
00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:37.880
<v Speaker 1>you want to do it individually, you've got the option

540
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.880
<v Speaker 1>as well. And it makes me wonder, like, is is

541
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.960
<v Speaker 1>it about an approach at all levels? Do we want

542
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.839
<v Speaker 1>it like to be kind of haphazard and also at

543
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:47.920
<v Speaker 1>a sort of city or state level planning?

544
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm, well I love these questions question. No, but

545
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.519
<v Speaker 2>it felt important and almost more tangible to look at

546
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.200
<v Speaker 2>them in the urban context. But then they parallel what

547
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.000
<v Speaker 2>you have, what you've and you know, more remote ecosystems

548
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:05.799
<v Speaker 2>is maybe someone comes in and gives you these trees

549
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>or plants these trees from an outside but again, how

550
00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.839
<v Speaker 2>are they sustained into the future In urban cities or sorry,

551
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.880
<v Speaker 2>urban areas. A lot of times you're getting funding, as

552
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned, through various mechanisms for that planting, and then

553
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:24.799
<v Speaker 2>the question of longer term maintenance. You know, sometimes yes,

554
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 2>cities have those budgets, but a lot of times it don't,

555
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and so they'll come back, they'll look for a year

556
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:32.079
<v Speaker 2>or two to get established. But then the longer term

557
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.039
<v Speaker 2>maintenance of that tree falls on the adjacent landowner. So

558
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.359
<v Speaker 2>if you're a busy person in a community and you've

559
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:39.799
<v Speaker 2>got a lot of the working three jobs, like you know,

560
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.559
<v Speaker 2>who knows what all the scenarios, situation, what your situation is,

561
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.920
<v Speaker 2>but you know, unless you have the time and resources

562
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:49.960
<v Speaker 2>to care for that tree longer term, that's a challenge,

563
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:52.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that adds a challenge. I loved what

564
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>someone said to me in Tacoma, where I spent some time.

565
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the least treed cities in the Evergreen State.

566
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.640
<v Speaker 2>His question was, what if trees in cities were like

567
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>street lamps. You know, if you think of a street

568
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:10.200
<v Speaker 2>lamp as an essential or a streetlight, sorry, a street

569
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:13.359
<v Speaker 2>light as a well. Both of them would be essential

570
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:18.759
<v Speaker 2>to you know, the urban community. They are stopping traffic,

571
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 2>they are providing light in your community, and when they break,

572
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:23.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a budget and there's someone who's going

573
00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.559
<v Speaker 2>to go out and fix them. What if we saw trees,

574
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, the same way in urban communities. Unfortunately, not

575
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody does, and we don't have the same funding mechanisms

576
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.720
<v Speaker 2>in place, so it is a bit haphazard in the

577
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:37.319
<v Speaker 2>sense of, you know, the funding comes from lots of

578
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:38.440
<v Speaker 2>different sources.

579
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Is that a function of just like pure ignorance. Do

580
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 1>you think that there's an assumption that because it's you know, green,

581
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.839
<v Speaker 1>and because it's natural and it's just going to take

582
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.599
<v Speaker 1>care of itself, like nature will just make it okay,

583
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:51.880
<v Speaker 1>and we don't have to do any maintenance, We don't

584
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:53.039
<v Speaker 1>have to do any management.

585
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:59.200
<v Speaker 2>No. I think it's just the reality of tree keeping

586
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 2>in any kind of text needs to be economically viable.

587
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. When I was in college, I studied

588
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:09.559
<v Speaker 2>environmental studies at Brown. At that time, there was a

589
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>paper presented. I can remember it. It's probably my sophomore year.

590
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:15.200
<v Speaker 2>Costanza was the author, and it was one of the

591
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:20.640
<v Speaker 2>first great evaluations of nature services ecosystem services. It was

592
00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.759
<v Speaker 2>this idea of like could we break nature into all

593
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.599
<v Speaker 2>these little components? And they did and then say what

594
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:29.960
<v Speaker 2>services they provide to people and who are functioning, you know,

595
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.039
<v Speaker 2>on earth, and then put an economic value on it.

596
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:37.759
<v Speaker 2>And I remember thinking, well, this seems crazy to me.

597
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.319
<v Speaker 2>Don't people just want to protect nature? Like that was

598
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:43.400
<v Speaker 2>my you know, idealistic self at twenty like it's wonderful.

599
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Why don't we all want it? Why can't we all

600
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:48.359
<v Speaker 2>keep why can't we keep it all? But in reality,

601
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:51.839
<v Speaker 2>when you have economic pressures for land, people need a

602
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:55.160
<v Speaker 2>productive use. You know, if your option is to clear

603
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the land and build a or B or you know,

604
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:03.240
<v Speaker 2>fharm X or y, the alternative to keeping those trees

605
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:07.400
<v Speaker 2>needs to have a financial incentive for people, you know.

606
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:12.880
<v Speaker 2>And so while I thought at the time that was

607
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.240
<v Speaker 2>crazy and also could we ever implement that, you know,

608
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:23.440
<v Speaker 2>now twenty years later, countries are valuing their nature services

609
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.599
<v Speaker 2>as a means of building it into the economic system.

610
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.359
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we have all different mechanisms now for

611
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.480
<v Speaker 2>what we call payments for ecosystem services. Maybe you're paying

612
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.319
<v Speaker 2>someone to do something differently to their water to protect it.

613
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.039
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you're paying someone to keep those trees for the

614
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:43.839
<v Speaker 2>carbon they will sequester in the next twenty thirty, thirty

615
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 2>five fifty years. So what I thought of was crazy.

616
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:52.839
<v Speaker 2>Now I view is, as you know, essential, because protecting

617
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:57.640
<v Speaker 2>nature or keeping a functioning natural world has largely been

618
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:01.640
<v Speaker 2>like a external to where you can system their externalities.

619
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Those impacts are all externalities.

620
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:05.680
<v Speaker 1>I think about some of the individuals that I've spoken

621
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.640
<v Speaker 1>with on the show before and in my personal life

622
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:14.320
<v Speaker 1>before who work in wildlife management, especially in some African countries,

623
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.400
<v Speaker 1>and the sort of awareness that I had when I

624
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 1>visited some of these countries that the rhetoric that we

625
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.440
<v Speaker 1>often hear in the West, which is that there's just

626
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.800
<v Speaker 1>these like big wild spaces and don't get me wrong,

627
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.880
<v Speaker 1>they're stunning spaces and they feel very wild, and they

628
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:34.760
<v Speaker 1>are very wild in many aspects. But the animals in

629
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:39.920
<v Speaker 1>these like large preserves in much of Africa, are named,

630
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:43.800
<v Speaker 1>they're tagged, they are fully managed, right, They're watched, like

631
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:46.880
<v Speaker 1>we know who these lions are, we know who these

632
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, elephants are there, and there's decision making about

633
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:56.000
<v Speaker 1>culling and about relocation, and you know about even something

634
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.880
<v Speaker 1>as scary to us in the West as an idea

635
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.320
<v Speaker 1>like trophy hunting is actually in an intentionally managed effort

636
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.280
<v Speaker 1>in a lot of these places to protect the animals

637
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:07.199
<v Speaker 1>and to raise money, and a lot of people just

638
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.480
<v Speaker 1>don't recognize that. So that brings me to this kind

639
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.159
<v Speaker 1>of parallel question, which is that the rhetoric that you

640
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.559
<v Speaker 1>often hear about like rewilding, like well, why don't we

641
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.320
<v Speaker 1>just kind of let it go back to itself? You know,

642
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.480
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, but what what I'm hearing from you

643
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.840
<v Speaker 1>is this idea that like there has to always be

644
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.440
<v Speaker 1>active management. Now, sometimes that active management is more hands

645
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.440
<v Speaker 1>on versus more hands off. But you can't just walk

646
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.840
<v Speaker 1>away and say, okay, there, that area is going to

647
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.599
<v Speaker 1>take care of itself, because even if we're actively not

648
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:40.559
<v Speaker 1>doing anything there, our activities as a human species have

649
00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:42.960
<v Speaker 1>affected it.

650
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.960
<v Speaker 2>There's no Christine, there's nothing we can just you know,

651
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.159
<v Speaker 2>I used to call it fortress conservation, where this idea

652
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:51.079
<v Speaker 2>that you could set up a national park and or

653
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, set line, you know, put lines on the

654
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.760
<v Speaker 2>earth as this protected area and it would stay stagnant

655
00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and b forever. And that's certainly not true.

656
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:05.679
<v Speaker 1>But everybody thinks it is, I feel like such a

657
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.639
<v Speaker 1>crime and misconception, right.

658
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Even our ideas of you know, I think a lot

659
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:14.719
<v Speaker 2>of ideas of some of the most again intact forests

660
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:18.480
<v Speaker 2>like Congo and Amazon. Like if you think of we

661
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.960
<v Speaker 2>go to the heart of the Amazon, nobody's there. Well, actually, yes,

662
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.159
<v Speaker 2>there are people there, and there are indigenous people there,

663
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:28.039
<v Speaker 2>and they're living more harmoniously with nature than we do elsewhere.

664
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.840
<v Speaker 2>We people living elsewhere can certainly learn from communities that

665
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.280
<v Speaker 2>are managing their lands far more sustainably. Like our relationship

666
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:38.719
<v Speaker 2>is out of balance.

667
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.199
<v Speaker 1>And they are managing them right, Like these indigenous groups

668
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:44.159
<v Speaker 1>are still actively managing their land. Yeah, they're not just

669
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:45.119
<v Speaker 1>turning their backs.

670
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:48.920
<v Speaker 2>I was also going to point to natural regeneration that

671
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, we've talked a lot about planting, talked a

672
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.599
<v Speaker 2>lot about doing and this is the idea of active

673
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.239
<v Speaker 2>restoring and active management. But a lot of times in

674
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:03.920
<v Speaker 2>land that have been used for cattle grazing, for example,

675
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 2>simply changing the land use, removing those cattle no longer

676
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.199
<v Speaker 2>raising cattle on that land can help recovery. If there's

677
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:16.599
<v Speaker 2>a seed bed in that forest, so there's a on

678
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 2>those lands, you know, if there's a seed bed from

679
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:22.239
<v Speaker 2>the forest that was there still in those lands or

680
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:26.960
<v Speaker 2>in adjacent lands. I visited a project in Panama. This

681
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:29.079
<v Speaker 2>was on the Azuero Peninsula. It was towards the end

682
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 2>of my research and reporting. It was really incredible effort

683
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:38.800
<v Speaker 2>bringing together local landowners and farmers. They had been cattle

684
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:41.239
<v Speaker 2>ranching in the area for a long time. The lands

685
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:46.239
<v Speaker 2>are degraded, the productivity has gone down, and also as

686
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>a result of climate change, the dry season is much

687
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.639
<v Speaker 2>longer now. So when you think of all these cattle

688
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:54.840
<v Speaker 2>needing to eat their green grass, like they're not getting

689
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.360
<v Speaker 2>that because of the hot dry season. The cattle that

690
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I saw in the region where you know, starving, really

691
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.599
<v Speaker 2>skinny cattle and not thinking about here they're getting a

692
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:06.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of money for the meat. So people in that

693
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.239
<v Speaker 2>area wanted and needed to transition their land use to

694
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 2>something else, you know, and growing forests could help, you know,

695
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.599
<v Speaker 2>restore biodiversity in the area, could help with ecotourism, could

696
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.840
<v Speaker 2>help sequester more carbon and anyhow, this project had been

697
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:26.000
<v Speaker 2>carbon certified and is supported by Microsoft. But the point

698
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:27.840
<v Speaker 2>that I wanted to make was they were doing and

699
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.119
<v Speaker 2>still are doing a lot of planting and you know,

700
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:31.679
<v Speaker 2>I didn't write about this at the time, because they

701
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:33.440
<v Speaker 2>keep sending me updates on how things are going. And

702
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:35.400
<v Speaker 2>now they're also saying, you know, just the act of

703
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 2>getting all these landowners to stop the cattle farming is

704
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:41.119
<v Speaker 2>also helping the regeneration happen. Like the trees we planted

705
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.119
<v Speaker 2>are doing well, and then there's a whole other generation

706
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 2>that we didn't even expect because you know, they're coming

707
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>back from the seabed. So that is an act of

708
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, in some ways letting the wild return, but

709
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:57.480
<v Speaker 2>facilitating it, you know, through changing the land use, through

710
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.760
<v Speaker 2>some planting, yes, but largely through removal of those cattle

711
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.519
<v Speaker 2>that we're you know, stamping down and grazing on the

712
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:04.280
<v Speaker 2>land all the time.

713
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 1>And that, of course, I think raises a complicated, a fascinating,

714
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 1>an important question about the way that all of these systems,

715
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.920
<v Speaker 1>in the most sort of stochastic way like interact with

716
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 1>one another. So, okay, removing the cattle grazing, and then

717
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.079
<v Speaker 1>you see all of these positive sort of consequences coming in.

718
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:35.960
<v Speaker 1>And yet at the same time, we don't need cattle

719
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.639
<v Speaker 1>for food, but we kind of need cattle for food,

720
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:41.000
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, Like we can make global

721
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:46.159
<v Speaker 1>decisions about meat consumption for you know, the health of

722
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:49.159
<v Speaker 1>the population, and we can affect change in a way

723
00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:52.559
<v Speaker 1>that we can massively reduce, let's say, beef consumption and

724
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:56.920
<v Speaker 1>the amount of just like resources that raising beef requires.

725
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:58.920
<v Speaker 1>At the same time, I think about it kind of

726
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the way that I think about fossil fuels. Right, we

727
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:05.599
<v Speaker 1>definitely need to stop utilizing fossil fuels the way that

728
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.719
<v Speaker 1>we do, but we also can't tomorrow turn off that

729
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:12.079
<v Speaker 1>faucet or we would have like global economic collapse. And

730
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.079
<v Speaker 1>I think about a lot of these different systems in

731
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:19.199
<v Speaker 1>that way. We want to move towards something, and we

732
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:21.360
<v Speaker 1>want to do it way faster than we're doing it

733
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.000
<v Speaker 1>right now. But at the same time, there have to

734
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.679
<v Speaker 1>be economic alternatives, because people aren't going to stand for

735
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:31.239
<v Speaker 1>reforesting ag land if that's their only source of being

736
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 1>able to feed themselves.

737
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Explaining that latter part a little more. People aren't going.

738
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's the question, right, And that's why I think

739
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 1>we have so much global pushback. Is in certain areas

740
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:48.880
<v Speaker 1>there is this idea I don't know if an idea

741
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:52.880
<v Speaker 1>is the right word, but there is a deep belief

742
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.639
<v Speaker 1>that the reason we're doing things the way we're doing

743
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:57.920
<v Speaker 1>them right now is because this is what we need.

744
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.199
<v Speaker 1>Right we have X number of people on the planet,

745
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.440
<v Speaker 1>we have to feed them. We have x amount of

746
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.440
<v Speaker 1>arable land. How do we utilize this land? And it's

747
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:09.280
<v Speaker 1>interesting because I think what you're doing in this book

748
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.199
<v Speaker 1>is you're looking at that very data and you're saying,

749
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:14.840
<v Speaker 1>it's not so simple as let's just turn every let's

750
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:16.559
<v Speaker 1>just plant trees everywhere in the world, and then we'll

751
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:18.760
<v Speaker 1>all be happy, right, But it's also not so simple

752
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:20.440
<v Speaker 1>as let's clear all the trees so that we can

753
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.280
<v Speaker 1>mine for gold and you know, let the cattle graze

754
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:28.559
<v Speaker 1>and grow sugar beets and alfalfa. There's a balance here

755
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:32.280
<v Speaker 1>because there are still eight billion people on the planet.

756
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:35.719
<v Speaker 2>And I don't you know, I definitely point towards what

757
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:39.039
<v Speaker 2>I believe, you know, and what others I interviewed one

758
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty people involved in restoration around the world.

759
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:46.199
<v Speaker 2>I think is you know most beneficial, which is we

760
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:49.199
<v Speaker 2>have colliding crises here, you know, from climate and from

761
00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:53.119
<v Speaker 2>the climate crisis and biodiversity crisis. There's even health problems

762
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:56.760
<v Speaker 2>that come from you know, more forest degradations. So they're

763
00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:01.320
<v Speaker 2>all intersecting, I mean, the pressures, and they will continue

764
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to be real. We need wood products. We've talked a

765
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.760
<v Speaker 2>lot about you know, food consumption, and certainly, yes, like

766
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:08.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, if we could change our behavior and not

767
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:11.239
<v Speaker 2>eat meat, that would protect a lot of forests and

768
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 2>keep give a lot of people land to have forested places.

769
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.760
<v Speaker 2>But again, the communities living near those forests would then

770
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:21.800
<v Speaker 2>have the same question of how how do they gain

771
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's the economic value they gain by keeping

772
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the trees? How do they build a sustainable system? And

773
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:32.239
<v Speaker 2>there's all kinds of you know, efforts to support those communities,

774
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:36.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, non they're called non timber related project. There

775
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.760
<v Speaker 2>are products that come from forests. You know, this can

776
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.000
<v Speaker 2>be beekeeping and bringing honey from the forest and making

777
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.599
<v Speaker 2>that into something new. So I don't take a deep

778
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:47.719
<v Speaker 2>dive on the there have been great books out there,

779
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.719
<v Speaker 2>many books written on the consumption side, and certainly you know,

780
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:56.639
<v Speaker 2>whether we're talking about fossil fuels or beef, reducing both

781
00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:58.559
<v Speaker 2>of them at a global scale. You could snap your

782
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.840
<v Speaker 2>fingers like what's all all the problems? You know?

783
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Right?

784
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:06.320
<v Speaker 2>But moving forward I think of and that's again, you know,

785
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:07.719
<v Speaker 2>points to the title of the book. I think that

786
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:11.679
<v Speaker 2>treekeeping is something we can integrate into a lot of

787
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:16.039
<v Speaker 2>different land uses, and are integrated into agricultural production in

788
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.119
<v Speaker 2>some places too. We also need to think about and

789
00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 2>people are thinking about how land use changes when it

790
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:27.679
<v Speaker 2>becomes unproductive for cattle or when it comes unproductive for farming.

791
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Those communities are, you know, in need of doing something different.

792
00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:34.800
<v Speaker 2>And if there have been forests on those lands before,

793
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.920
<v Speaker 2>and those lands could still support forests, why not have

794
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.400
<v Speaker 2>them there into the future. Why not help build them

795
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:41.280
<v Speaker 2>there into the future.

796
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.079
<v Speaker 1>So then I guess that leads me because you're right

797
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.719
<v Speaker 1>like that that's not the focus of your book, but

798
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:49.360
<v Speaker 1>one of the things that you do touch on, and

799
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:52.199
<v Speaker 1>I think it's an important conversation about that sort of

800
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.639
<v Speaker 1>extractive practice is I guess I don't know if I'm

801
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:58.480
<v Speaker 1>using the right words, but like timber right long, like

802
00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:02.000
<v Speaker 1>literally cutting down trees to then be able to make

803
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:06.840
<v Speaker 1>things like houses and furniture and paper. And so I'm

804
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:10.320
<v Speaker 1>curious your I guess maybe just like your ethical take

805
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:13.800
<v Speaker 1>on it's a complicated question, right, So similar to fossil fuels, Yeah,

806
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.360
<v Speaker 1>the world would be great if we just never used

807
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.440
<v Speaker 1>fossil fuels. It'd be great if we didn't have to

808
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:19.840
<v Speaker 1>cut down trees to make houses, but we do. So

809
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 1>is there a future where we don't, or is there

810
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:26.440
<v Speaker 1>a future where we do it in a more sustainable way? Like,

811
00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:30.519
<v Speaker 1>what's your kind of takeaway after doing all this research.

812
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was interesting to take a look back at

813
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:34.639
<v Speaker 2>some of the forest transitions that have happened historically. So

814
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.000
<v Speaker 2>in parts of Europe Scotland for example, as one. There

815
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:41.960
<v Speaker 2>are other countries that in the last hundred two hundred,

816
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:46.559
<v Speaker 2>three hundred years experienced forest transitions, and a lot of

817
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:49.840
<v Speaker 2>times they were you know, post war really if you

818
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.280
<v Speaker 2>look at post World War one or post World War

819
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:57.400
<v Speaker 2>two policies where countries didn't want to rely on imports

820
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 2>from other countries and so they change their forest policy

821
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.159
<v Speaker 2>domestically to say, okay, let's start planting forests. And those

822
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:11.440
<v Speaker 2>forests were you know, monoculture forests largely for wood product.

823
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:16.360
<v Speaker 2>So while you could say that that story is a

824
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:18.920
<v Speaker 2>story of lost gain if you just say, oh, there

825
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.000
<v Speaker 2>was the forest there before, and was the forest gone

826
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:24.400
<v Speaker 2>and now there's a new forest, Yes, but when you

827
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.800
<v Speaker 2>start looking into what those forests are, you know where

828
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:34.280
<v Speaker 2>they native forests where they multiple species, biodiverse, are they

829
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 2>now monocultures? You know that there's a real question of

830
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.960
<v Speaker 2>what are we losing versus what are we gaining? So,

831
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:47.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, I definitely make the point and others certainly

832
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.440
<v Speaker 2>do from many interviews that now, when we think about restoration,

833
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:59.320
<v Speaker 2>in the ideal scenario, we're thinking about restoring ecosystems in

834
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:02.400
<v Speaker 2>a way that support a diversity of species, you know,

835
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:04.760
<v Speaker 2>and that's not always possible, and that won't always be

836
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:09.400
<v Speaker 2>possible because we need timber. But I think that any

837
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.079
<v Speaker 2>project could start with that, you know, that question, to

838
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:16.159
<v Speaker 2>what extent could we restore native species here? You know,

839
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:19.719
<v Speaker 2>there have been probably ten or fifteen or twenty species

840
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.920
<v Speaker 2>most commonly planted in efforts around the world, you know,

841
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:27.079
<v Speaker 2>for a long history. But there are some you know,

842
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:31.400
<v Speaker 2>seventy three thousand tree species known on Earth. So that

843
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:34.400
<v Speaker 2>was also some of the fascinating things to research as

844
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.599
<v Speaker 2>you start thinking about, Okay, well, if we actually want

845
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to address two colliding crises here about a climate crisis

846
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:42.679
<v Speaker 2>and a biodiversity crisis, we could do that, but only

847
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:49.400
<v Speaker 2>if we're planting and supporting, you know, regeneration of biodiverse

848
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.360
<v Speaker 2>areas as well. That's really different than the timber question.

849
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.599
<v Speaker 1>No, but it's an important one because they speak to

850
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.119
<v Speaker 1>each other.

851
00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:55.599
<v Speaker 2>Right.

852
00:46:56.280 --> 00:47:00.760
<v Speaker 1>I think we often think in different levels like mic grow,

853
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:07.199
<v Speaker 1>macro miso. What we're talking about here are large efforts

854
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:13.159
<v Speaker 1>and super important efforts like national sometimes multinational efforts, but

855
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:15.920
<v Speaker 1>it can happen all the way down to the individual

856
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.679
<v Speaker 1>level as well. Right, So I'm curious. You know, we

857
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:21.599
<v Speaker 1>haven't talked too deeply about it, but we have kind

858
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:25.440
<v Speaker 1>of touched on policies or on decision making at these large,

859
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:30.440
<v Speaker 1>sort of multinational levels. But what about like you and

860
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:33.800
<v Speaker 1>your home in you know, Bozeman, or me and my

861
00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:36.880
<v Speaker 1>home here in Los Angeles? Are there things that I

862
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:40.800
<v Speaker 1>can be doing, whether it's from a voting or policy perspective,

863
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:45.039
<v Speaker 1>or whether it's from an individual sort of maintenance and

864
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:49.960
<v Speaker 1>management perspective of my own property to help improve biodiversity.

865
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:54.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I've recently wrote an article an Emergence magazine. It's

866
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:57.199
<v Speaker 2>a great magazine if you haven't come upon it. But

867
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 2>I was actually researching post fire regeneration. So what are

868
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.920
<v Speaker 2>some of these communities doing in LA and your area?

869
00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:10.880
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like that are recovering or just barely from fires.

870
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean there's some there's a really incredible effort now

871
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:18.760
<v Speaker 2>among community members to collect wild seed and plant wild seed.

872
00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:22.119
<v Speaker 2>People have been collecting in that area on their properties.

873
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.719
<v Speaker 2>So yes, thinking about a diversity of species that you

874
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:28.559
<v Speaker 2>can plant on your own property, if you are a gardener,

875
00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:32.159
<v Speaker 2>if you have land, is certainly great. When I was

876
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:35.400
<v Speaker 2>with I worked with the Climate Adaptation Fund for a while.

877
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:37.360
<v Speaker 2>It's used to be one of the largest funders of

878
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.440
<v Speaker 2>adaptation efforts in the US, and some of the most

879
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.639
<v Speaker 2>interesting projects I found were pollination projects in cities where

880
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:46.960
<v Speaker 2>people were really clearly planting in their gardens, you know,

881
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:53.159
<v Speaker 2>plants that would support pollinators and other species that we're

882
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:55.480
<v Speaker 2>moving through those areas. You know, even if you're in

883
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:57.840
<v Speaker 2>a more rural area and your farmland, doing that work

884
00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:01.119
<v Speaker 2>is great, is helpful. Getting involved in your community to

885
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:04.239
<v Speaker 2>understand your forest cover is a really interesting way to

886
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:07.400
<v Speaker 2>engage with this topic. I have just started, you know, locally,

887
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I've been working on this global book for many years,

888
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:13.199
<v Speaker 2>and I've just started getting more involved in my local community.

889
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's a lot of complexities to managing

890
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:20.239
<v Speaker 2>what here in Bozeman is twenty seven thousand urban trees.

891
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:22.599
<v Speaker 2>You know, there arefore people checking in on these trees,

892
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:26.440
<v Speaker 2>and yes, developments coming in, and yes policies that could

893
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:30.440
<v Speaker 2>be changed and improved to help keep the forest cover

894
00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:35.079
<v Speaker 2>here in this community. But I think any community could

895
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:37.559
<v Speaker 2>have that. And maybe you're sitting there in you know, Arizona.

896
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean I live in the desert. But actually Phoenix,

897
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:41.880
<v Speaker 2>for example, has a was one of a great example

898
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:43.920
<v Speaker 2>of a city that went out there and has been

899
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:48.039
<v Speaker 2>doing some really interesting work and good work to increase

900
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:52.960
<v Speaker 2>their urban tree cover for cooling effects and addressing tree

901
00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:56.480
<v Speaker 2>inequities in that region as well or in that city

902
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:56.840
<v Speaker 2>as well.

903
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, I have to ask, and in some ways

904
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:01.519
<v Speaker 1>I feel like this might be a closing question, so

905
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.800
<v Speaker 1>before I dive into it, I do want to make

906
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.000
<v Speaker 1>sure that we've covered you know, from where I'm sitting,

907
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:08.760
<v Speaker 1>I feel like the important takeaway so far for me

908
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.360
<v Speaker 1>has been this is gray right. This is a very

909
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:16.599
<v Speaker 1>complex question, and it's not so simple as let's just

910
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:19.400
<v Speaker 1>plant a bunch of trees wherever we can plant them

911
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:21.000
<v Speaker 1>and then walk away and hope that, like you know,

912
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.639
<v Speaker 1>nature finds a way. But this is a situation that

913
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:27.119
<v Speaker 1>requires a lot of active management and a lot of

914
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:31.639
<v Speaker 1>important decision making for all of the different interested parties

915
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.480
<v Speaker 1>so that we can find sort of the most equitable

916
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:38.840
<v Speaker 1>and best possible solution giving all of these different pressures.

917
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:43.639
<v Speaker 1>Now that said, you started this this sort of conversation

918
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.519
<v Speaker 1>by saying, you know, I was working on this project

919
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:48.960
<v Speaker 1>and I was writing about this topic, and it sounded

920
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.599
<v Speaker 1>really depressing, right, and you were talking about your dissertation,

921
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.599
<v Speaker 1>but like it sounded really depressing, but ultimately I found

922
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:57.880
<v Speaker 1>it really hopeful, and I'm curious if we can kind

923
00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:02.360
<v Speaker 1>of bring that back to tree keepers. You know, we're

924
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:06.440
<v Speaker 1>talking about these problems that feel sometimes insurmountable, but clearly

925
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:09.519
<v Speaker 1>you write with so much hope for the future, and

926
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:11.920
<v Speaker 1>so I'm wondering, Hey, where do you find that hope

927
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:14.199
<v Speaker 1>and how do you implement it?

928
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, first, I mean I was just amazed at, I guess,

929
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.119
<v Speaker 2>the diversity of people that are tree keepers. You know,

930
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I talk to so many people living in different settings

931
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:32.280
<v Speaker 2>and coming from different backgrounds, and you know, trees captivated

932
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:35.960
<v Speaker 2>them in some way. I think you know, that connection

933
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 2>in some ways is an ata. I write about that

934
00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:40.960
<v Speaker 2>through the eyes of my son and watching him and

935
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:45.440
<v Speaker 2>as his relationship with trees and nature has grown. But

936
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:47.880
<v Speaker 2>to me, so I find hope in that, and that

937
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:49.719
<v Speaker 2>was part of my effort, you know, in writing this

938
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.920
<v Speaker 2>book is I want I would like everyone first to

939
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the narrative and second to reflect on, you know,

940
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:58.199
<v Speaker 2>how can I be part of this and what is

941
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:00.000
<v Speaker 2>a small role that I could play? And I think

942
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:03.400
<v Speaker 2>there are many regardless of where you regardless of where

943
00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:07.199
<v Speaker 2>you live. And then the other thing, particularly, you know,

944
00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:09.920
<v Speaker 2>for a lot of at the larger scale, I guess

945
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:15.119
<v Speaker 2>for companies and governments that are making tree commitments. I

946
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:18.440
<v Speaker 2>wanted to send the message that I think this work

947
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:23.679
<v Speaker 2>is yes, complex, but there's lots of lessons learned already

948
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:28.400
<v Speaker 2>and there are you know, guardrails or general principles I

949
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:30.679
<v Speaker 2>think that can guide this work. And every project needs

950
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:33.400
<v Speaker 2>to be tailored to the local context and the local

951
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:37.800
<v Speaker 2>community and supported by a local community. And yes, that's hard,

952
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:41.159
<v Speaker 2>but I think there are themes across them. And I

953
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:44.679
<v Speaker 2>also think that there are a lot of good companies

954
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:49.079
<v Speaker 2>and leaders working to make the effort of tree keeping

955
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.519
<v Speaker 2>better and to find the way is to make it

956
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.880
<v Speaker 2>economically viable. So there's you know that there's my hope too.

957
00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:58.519
<v Speaker 1>And how do you maintain that on a kind of

958
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.320
<v Speaker 1>daily basis? How do you how do you tap back

959
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:04.400
<v Speaker 1>into that when you're starting to feel a little bit

960
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.360
<v Speaker 1>discouraged or overwhelmed, especially and I don't you know, obviously

961
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:10.320
<v Speaker 1>we don't, we don't need to get into politics right now.

962
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:12.480
<v Speaker 1>I've been spending a lot of time there. But you know,

963
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.480
<v Speaker 1>right now is a time where a lot of people

964
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:17.760
<v Speaker 1>are struggling to find hope because they feel like the

965
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:21.679
<v Speaker 1>political will isn't there necessarily. So, you know, how do you,

966
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:25.400
<v Speaker 1>as an individual who's really steeped in this content, what

967
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.840
<v Speaker 1>do you tell yourself in those moments where your hope

968
00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:29.719
<v Speaker 1>is hard to catch?

969
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess I think about if you focus

970
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:36.159
<v Speaker 2>on what got us into the climate mess. You know,

971
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:40.199
<v Speaker 2>it was the actions of many, many, many people, collective action,

972
00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:44.719
<v Speaker 2>and certainly you know, some are more responsible than others,

973
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:48.239
<v Speaker 2>but we're playing a part. And so I guess I

974
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:51.719
<v Speaker 2>flip the coin and say the same is true in

975
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.679
<v Speaker 2>the solution space. You know, what are the good things

976
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.480
<v Speaker 2>that I can do to contribute? Yes, I would like

977
00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.679
<v Speaker 2>to spark more change at a larger scale, but I

978
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.679
<v Speaker 2>also believe I can make a difference at a small

979
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:07.639
<v Speaker 2>scale and hopefully potentially let's all put her, you know,

980
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:10.480
<v Speaker 2>cross our fingers that will have an impact to and

981
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:11.599
<v Speaker 2>do course and do time.

982
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:16.760
<v Speaker 1>I love it, and it's so true sometimes when we

983
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.039
<v Speaker 1>are feeling like our hands are most tied behind our back,

984
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:23.639
<v Speaker 1>or we're feeling like the most like a very tiny

985
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:29.079
<v Speaker 1>tiny cog in like what's increasingly feeling like an authoritarian wheel.

986
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:34.679
<v Speaker 1>The ability to to be empowered to make these kind

987
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.159
<v Speaker 1>of small scale decisions, to support the leaders that we

988
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:42.360
<v Speaker 1>want to support, to engage in active change in our

989
00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:46.480
<v Speaker 1>on our own personal property or within our communities is

990
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:50.320
<v Speaker 1>it's not just a way to recapture that hope, but

991
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:52.599
<v Speaker 1>it's a way to feel like we're and not just

992
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:55.719
<v Speaker 1>to feel like but to actually be doing something when

993
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:58.800
<v Speaker 1>when it's it's hard to feel like we're affecting change

994
00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:01.440
<v Speaker 1>against the background of what's happening politically right now.

995
00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and i'd say also to dress you know this moment.

996
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:11.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I am a scientist who's worked on environmental issues.

997
00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:13.719
<v Speaker 2>I work on climate. My husband is a you know,

998
00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:18.639
<v Speaker 2>doctor who works on infectious disease outbreaks and public health. Like,

999
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, in a time when science is called into

1000
00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:27.119
<v Speaker 2>question like this, and so many people in fields I

1001
00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:31.039
<v Speaker 2>value and care about and believe are critical are laid off.

1002
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:34.760
<v Speaker 2>I also think about, like what can come from this

1003
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:38.039
<v Speaker 2>period of disruption, like how do you not give up?

1004
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:40.960
<v Speaker 2>How do those people come together? What's the pivot? And

1005
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think anyone has an answer to that, but

1006
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.599
<v Speaker 2>I think that if you throw your hands up and say, well,

1007
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:52.960
<v Speaker 2>we can't, then we can't. You know what will chart

1008
00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:56.159
<v Speaker 2>the path forward is people figuring out how to come

1009
00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:58.079
<v Speaker 2>together again differently.

1010
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.280
<v Speaker 1>And we will. And I'm I'm not just hopeful, but

1011
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:04.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm confident that we will, because I think that that

1012
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.199
<v Speaker 1>is how the pendulum swings, is that sometimes we get

1013
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:10.079
<v Speaker 1>comfortable and then we have to realize that we can't

1014
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:14.840
<v Speaker 1>get too comfortable. And hopefully, for those who are listening

1015
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:17.960
<v Speaker 1>right now, they are curious and they, you know, their

1016
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:21.039
<v Speaker 1>appetite has been wedded to be able to pick up

1017
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:24.079
<v Speaker 1>your book Tree Keepers, to read about the hope that

1018
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:26.320
<v Speaker 1>is in front of us and the type of future

1019
00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:29.559
<v Speaker 1>that we can have on this planet with some planning,

1020
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:32.880
<v Speaker 1>some decision making, and some and some real stewardship.

1021
00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think in a time when it feels

1022
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 2>like people are going different ways. I think, you know,

1023
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:43.079
<v Speaker 2>one of the lessons I took from the different people

1024
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.199
<v Speaker 2>involved in tree keeping is that it also brings us together.

1025
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So I look to that, to the act of treekeeping

1026
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:51.039
<v Speaker 2>for that too during these times.

1027
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:55.679
<v Speaker 1>I love that well everybody. The book is tree Keepers

1028
00:56:55.880 --> 00:56:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the Race for a Forested Future by doctor Lauren E. Oakes.

1029
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Lauren Thing, thank you so much for being here with

1030
00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:01.880
<v Speaker 1>us today.

1031
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me good questions. It was a good conversation.

1032
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was so fun, and everybody listening. Thank you

1033
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:11.440
<v Speaker 1>for coming back a week after week. I'm really looking

1034
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.000
<v Speaker 1>forward to the next time we all get together to

1035
00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:14.719
<v Speaker 1>talk to Arbi