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We're prohibited by Way 23 00:00:57.640 --> 00:00:59.960 eighteen plus terms and conditions applaing. See website for. 24 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:03.799 Loot Tonadian. 25 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.319 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:26.799 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:35.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:50.920 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. When forty year 31 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.920 old Esther Castellani died a slow, in agonizing death in 32 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.439 nineteen sixty five, the official cause was at first undetermined. 33 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.519 The day after Ester's funeral, her husband, Renee, packed up 34 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.639 his girlfriend Lallie, his daughter Jeanine, and Lolly's son Dawn 35 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:12.479 in the company car and took off for Disneyland. If 36 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:16.280 not for the doggedness of the doctor who treated Esther, Renee, 37 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.039 then a charismatic and handsome radio personality, would have been 38 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.560 free to marry Lawley, who was the station's pretty twenty 39 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.960 somethings receptionist. Instead, Renee was charged with capital murder for 40 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:33.000 poisoning his wife with arsenic laced milkshakes. Murder by Milkshake 41 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:37.199 is the compelling story of the Castellanis and of their daughter, Jeanine, 42 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.520 who was eleven at the time of her mother's murder 43 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:43.080 and who clung to her father's innocence, even committing perjury 44 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:47.439 during his trial. Rigorously researched and based on dozens of 45 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:51.400 interviews with family, friends, and co workers, Murdered by Milkshake 46 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:55.360 documents the sensational case that kept the city spellbound while 47 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:59.319 providing a snapshot of the man mad men s, social 48 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.240 and political realities of the sixties. The book that we're 49 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:07.240 featuring this evening is Murdered by Milkshake, an astonishing true 50 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:11.560 story of adultery, arsenic and a charismatic killer, with my 51 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:16.280 special guest journalists, an author and crime historian Eve Lazareth. 52 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.240 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 53 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:22.639 agreeing to this interview. Eve Lazareth, thanks so much for 54 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:28.439 having me. Thank you very much. But first off, tell 55 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:30.919 us a little bit about your work as a crime historian, 56 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:34.960 a journalist and an author that puts you in a 57 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:40.919 position to write about this case. Initially, originally before you've 58 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.960 decided to write this book. So tell us a little 59 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.960 bit about your background and how you came in a 60 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:49.479 position to be able to write this book. Tell us 61 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.840 about the crime Museum and your blog, and tell us 62 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.840 all about that background, please sure. 63 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.840 I first heard about this case at the Vancouver Police Museum, 64 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.960 and that would have been back in the nineteen nineties, 65 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:08.479 and it was a true kind display that it was 66 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:12.159 mainly at that stage focused on reading Castellani the Murderer, 67 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:15.039 and I thought, you know, it was kind of a 68 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:20.360 really interesting, obviously bizarre case, and I'd written about it 69 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.519 in my first book, at Home with History, and the 70 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:26.160 idea behind that book was a house has a history 71 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.120 or a genealogy like a person's, and I was telling 72 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.879 stories that happened in the house, filtered through the house. 73 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:36.399 And I told the story of the Castellini murder filtered 74 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:40.279 through that Carrisdale, Vancouver duplex where most of the poisoning 75 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:44.560 took place. And it's been written about several times as 76 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.319 a chapter in different people's books. And you know, it's 77 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.160 quite a well known or actually not as well known 78 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.920 as I thought after the book came out, but fairly 79 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:58.000 well known. Murder case were called in Vancouver and Petty 80 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.360 never thought about doing a book, but I did, right. 81 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:03.800 I have a blog called every Place Has a Story, 82 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.079 and several years ago I'd written up the story on 83 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.639 my blog again filtered through the duplex where the poisoning 84 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:15.519 took place, and fortunately for me, I made a mistake. 85 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:20.079 I said that Lolly Reni's mistress had a six year 86 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.240 old daughter. And a little while later I got this 87 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.079 note from a woman named Debbie Miller, and she said, 88 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.920 you're wrong. Lolly had a son and he's my husband, 89 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:35.399 Don and he's been looking for Janine, the Castellani daughter 90 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.639 for almost fifty years. Do you know where she is? 91 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:44.519 And Janine was eleven when her father murdered her mother, 92 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.000 and I'd always wondered what had happened to Janine, you know, 93 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:53.959 what is someone's life like after something that awful happens? 94 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.720 And didn't again, didn't think much more about it. And 95 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:03.720 then book called Blood, Sweat and Fear in twenty seventeen, 96 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:07.439 and I had the book launch back at the bank 97 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:11.600 as the Police Museum, and Janine came to my book 98 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.120 launch and introduced herself. So I'd sort of met Janine 99 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:18.680 and I'd said to her, oh my god, I got, 100 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.959 you know, an email from Debbie Mello Don's husband saying 101 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.560 that he's been looking for you, and she got really 102 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.639 emotional and she said, well, I've been looking for him 103 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.879 for nearly fifty years as well. And I just got 104 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.240 so intrigued by this story. I really wanted to tell 105 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.720 the story from Janine's point of view and really, as 106 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.199 much as possible, try to give Esther back a voice 107 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.560 in this whole story. And Janine and she has two 108 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.319 daughters now, and we met, oh many, many many times, 109 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:55.000 and she had a lot of the family album, you know, 110 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.720 photos that you can see throughout the book. And I'd 111 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.600 managed to get the testimotive is at the Capital murder trial, 112 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:06.079 and so the story it's a bit different. It touches 113 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.519 on the history of Vancouver in the sixties. It's definitely 114 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:14.319 Janine's story, and in some ways that the murder became 115 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.079 the least interesting part of writing this book for me. 116 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.920 Let's talk about the outline of the crime itself in 117 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.639 July nineteen sixty five, and can go back to previous 118 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.120 about Esther's health, but take us back to the actual event, 119 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.480 and let's talk about just previous to that, the living situation. 120 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:41.240 You talk about Renee working at c K and W 121 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:45.000 of Radio Popular radio station tell us about their family 122 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:49.199 situation that Janine with her father and her mother esther 123 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.439 she was living at that time in nineteen sixty five. 124 00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:01.040 Sure well, Rennie was kind of a a celebrity. He 125 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:04.759 was a radio personality with c K and W out 126 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:10.759 here in Vancouver and he did all the promotions and 127 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:17.600 back then probably the more sober Now, ratings were just huge, 128 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.879 and these stations would just do anything, you know, they 129 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:25.480 kept dreaming out the most outrageous promotions possible, and he 130 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.199 was well known for doing some of these crazy stunts. 131 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.360 He was known as a dizzy dialer. It was kind 132 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.519 of a like a radio version of Canadad Camera where 133 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:39.679 you'd call up someone and basically punk them on the air, 134 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.720 and he was known as a dizzy dialer. He did 135 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.639 an outrageous promotion as the Maharaja of Ali Baba where 136 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.799 the opposition station had brought up the guy that hosts 137 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.840 whose name I can't remember right now, but he did 138 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.200 a show called who Wants to Be a Millionaire and 139 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:00.759 they brought him up from the States. He handed out, 140 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:03.279 you know, wads of cash to people and he came 141 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.039 w were desperate to come up with something, and they 142 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.240 came up with this Mari Maharaja of Ali Baba, where 143 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.440 they dressed up Reni in these sheikh's robes and said 144 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.039 he'd come to buy the province. And it was so 145 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.000 convincing that people came out with signs saying, you know, 146 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.240 keep DC British as it was in those days nineteen 147 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.240 in the early sixties, and so he was getting quite 148 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.360 a name for himself. He was before that, he had 149 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.960 bounced around from job to job. He prepared, so he 150 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:36.759 was in the Wars radio operator in Second World War. 151 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.720 He looked after washing machines. He was a maintenance guy. 152 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.200 He had run a hotel up in Campbell River, Northern 153 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:50.000 BC in the early sixties for a while, and they'd 154 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.320 moved from house to house. It was a pretty unstable 155 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.679 sort of life, but a fairly happy one, according to 156 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.919 Janine in the early years, and so they were bouncing 157 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.600 around from sort of house to house. He'd finally got 158 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:08.919 hired on after the Maharaja success, so he was working 159 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:13.200 full time and Esther was working as a manager at 160 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:18.039 a children's boutique in Kristylist where they lived, and Janine 161 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.919 was going to the little flour Academy. It was a 162 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:26.720 Catholic boarding schools, so life was getting pretty good for them. 163 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:29.919 And then Reenie met and fell in love with Lolly 164 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.240 the twenty something I think she was twenty five at 165 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.960 that point. She was a young widow, beautiful woman, had 166 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:40.159 been lefts some money from her constance's earlier death, and 167 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:43.919 I guess for Reenie it looked like, you know, something 168 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.600 that he could down upgrades a younger wife, a younger, beautiful, 169 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.240 rich wife, and he looked at how he could get 170 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:57.240 rid of Esther and found Arsnext. She loved milkshakes, apparently, 171 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:01.679 especially once from White Spot Vanilla milkshakes, and talking to 172 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:07.240 various scientists, apparently milk and milkshakes in particular a fantastic 173 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.879 delivery system for arsenic because you can't taste it or 174 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:16.720 see it, and it's a diabolically clever murder weapon. When 175 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.879 it's given in small doses, it mimics natural causes like 176 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.639 the flu or viruses, which is what they thought it was. 177 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:31.480 For many, many months, Esther had started getting sick when 178 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:36.559 she'd found a letter in Renie's wallet signed Love Lilly, 179 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.559 and confronted him about this, and he denied having an affair, 180 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:45.840 but pretty soon after that started poisoning her. Do you 181 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:46.559 want to keep going? 182 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.879 Well, the thing is you talk about this poisoning. What 183 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.759 was you write in the book about her doctor Sector 184 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.279 and his assessment of what was happening during that time 185 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:03.120 of the poisoning. So tell us what he thought and 186 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.000 what she thought was she did she suspect that there 187 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:08.799 was anything a file? And what did the doctor suspect? 188 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:10.000 What was his treatment? 189 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.000 Actually, I'm very angry at doctor Sector, who's long dead 190 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:19.279 now that he was incredibly patronizing here. She was really suffering, 191 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.519 and she would go see him. I think she saw 192 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.919 him seven times, and each time he'd kind of pat 193 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.000 her on the head and say, well, you're a bit plump, 194 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:31.039 aren't she Probably, you know, improve your diet, and he'd 195 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.080 give her an antacid and sort of commiserate with her 196 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.440 long suffering husband, and off she'd go, thinking it was 197 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.000 her own fault that she was getting sick. And as 198 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:44.720 she got sicker and sick of her family was so 199 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:49.799 worried for her that they got another doctor, a specialist, 200 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.399 to have a look at her, and he immediately put 201 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.440 her into Vancouver General Hospital, where she was for seven 202 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.639 weeks before her death. She had over one hundred and 203 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.639 twenty different tests and was seen by several specialists and 204 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.639 no one could figure out what was wrong with her. 205 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.720 At this time. He wrote, and this is part of 206 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:19.639 the incredible story that this guy that would do anything 207 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:23.120 for a promotional, man that would do anything for a 208 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.519 radio stunt to promote the radio station while his wife 209 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.240 was in the hospital. He cooked up an especially sensational 210 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:37.080 promotional scheme. Tell us about this promotional. 211 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.320 And that also did him in in the end, which 212 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:44.879 was quite interesting. Yeah. One of the promotions was one 213 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.799 of the clients for c kW was a car dealership 214 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.159 with Broadway here in Vancouver, and it was Bomack and 215 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:57.399 Jimmy Patterson, who's caught a zillionaire and owns Huff Canada, 216 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.120 was originally working at this car dealership. He was a 217 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.200 manager of it in nineteen fifty nine and he had 218 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.759 this Neon sign built and it was the biggest freestanding 219 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:14.039 Neon sign in North America at that time, and it 220 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.519 was all lit up with these huge ladders. It's still there, 221 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.519 unfortunately now it's covered by a Toys r Us sign, 222 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:24.519 but it's still there and huge, huge, but much bigger 223 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.279 back then when building for very small, and the stunt 224 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.120 was that Reni would climb to the top and live 225 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.320 in a car until every last car on the dealership 226 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:38.240 was sold. And they built scaffolding up next to the 227 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.480 sign and it was about, I guess forty foot high, 228 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.200 and he would live in this car and there was 229 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:47.039 a sort of port a potty or something put up there, 230 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:53.000 and they'd get his food up there, hoisted up and 231 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:57.159 people would wave and honk their horns and their encouraged seams, 232 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.320 so it was highly visible up on this sign. He 233 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:03.000 was up there for a total of nine days. And 234 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.519 while he was up there, Esther was in the hospital 235 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.840 and she got better and better, and the day after 236 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.919 he came down, she got really, really sick and died 237 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:19.519 not long after that. And after he was caught and 238 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.919 everything came out and they were able to chart the 239 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.360 amount of arsenic through her nails and through her hair 240 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.720 that she'd ingested in a rough timeline of when she 241 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:36.159 took it. And you know, surprise a prize, it coincided 242 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:37.799 with the time that he was up on top of 243 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:38.720 the Bomac sign. 244 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.679 Yeah, now tell us about her death. And then we 245 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.879 talked about the darkness of this. Doctor Moskovich tell us 246 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.000 how he recognizes that there's something a foul and what 247 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.519 does he do as a result, and tell us about 248 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:58.639 her actual death and sixty. 249 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.720 Five, Well, doctor Moskovitch was a specialist that was brought 250 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:08.039 in after doctor Sector failed her miserably, and he'd had 251 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.559 a put into a hospital and had done that, as 252 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.759 I mentioned, one hundred and twenty tests and called in 253 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.879 a whole bunch of different specialists to try and find 254 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.000 out what was wrong with her, and to no avail, 255 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:24.320 obviously because she died. But he really liked esther and 256 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.080 it just drove in nuts and he couldn't figure out 257 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.519 what was wrong. And she'd had a hospital autopsy done 258 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.200 just after her death, and that still didn't bring out 259 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.960 a cause of guests, and he just couldn't let it go, 260 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:43.120 and he went back over everything, all the case notes, everything, 261 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:49.399 and then he suddenly realized, aha, arsenik could cause these symptoms. 262 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.480 And then as now you have to be tested specifically 263 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:56.240 for arsenith. It just doesn't come up with any other tests. 264 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:58.559 And why would you write it? Was you know, a 265 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.080 popular way to offer someone in seventeen and eighteen hundreds, 266 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.200 But it's virtually unheard of last century, and it was. 267 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:08.359 So. 268 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.680 Anyway, he sent off from the sorry from the autopsy 269 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:17.519 that had some of her organs still, and he'd sent 270 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.039 those off to the city analysts to have them tested, 271 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.720 and it came back that she'd had fifteen hundred times 272 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.480 for normal amount of arsnik in her organs that were 273 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:32.559 found in the human body. And so they had their 274 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:37.319 sort of cause of death. And so you asked when 275 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.480 she died. She died in July nineteen sixty five, after 276 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.519 spending seven weeks in hospital. 277 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:50.359 Now right away, of course, investigations might be different today, 278 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.599 and certainly they were different then. But you write this 279 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.519 incredible part of the story where he packs up his 280 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:02.880 girlfriend Lally, his die Janine, and her son Don and 281 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.319 in the company car. And you write in the book 282 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.880 too that he had prepared the radio station saying that 283 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.920 he was going to use the company car for a 284 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.279 family outing, certainly not what he ended up doing. So, 285 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.759 and in this company car he took off for Disneyland 286 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.839 one day after the funeral. Tell us more about the 287 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.519 suspicion that is aroused by this, and what does the 288 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:32.240 police do. You talk about a particularly again dogged detective 289 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.599 that suspects him early on, tell us what happens. 290 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.960 Yeah, it was the day after the funeral. As you mentioned, 291 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.400 he'd got the company car and he had told the 292 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.480 station and he told the family that he was taking 293 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.720 Janine away. He was taking her to Disneyland and to 294 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:55.440 get away and make a fresh start of it, and 295 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.799 they were quite encouraging. They loaned him the car for that, 296 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:02.799 and the family gave him cash to you know, take 297 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.279 away on the holiday. But of course he didn't tell 298 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.960 anyone that he was also taking his mistress and her 299 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:13.400 six year old son. And the other really bizarre thing 300 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.920 that he did was no one before this, no one 301 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.799 suspected him. He was a loving husband, he played the 302 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:25.960 role really well. And the other had he got her cremated, 303 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.559 by the way, everything would have gone away, he would 304 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:30.960 have got away with murder. But he didn't have a 305 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.039 cremated for whatever reason. I think he just got really 306 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.119 arrogant that he'd got away with the poisoning for so 307 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.000 long and thought all the specialists and I imagine that 308 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.799 he just felt invincible by this point and so could 309 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.519 just do anything. And one of the other done things 310 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.680 he did a couple of weeks before Esther died, was 311 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.319 he and Lolly went and took out a mortgage for 312 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:58.119 a house in their new married names, right, and then 313 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.720 a couple when the police found out about Gidney Land 314 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:05.960 and said hello, he's got a mistress, and then found 315 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.640 out about the mortgage, then they really centered their investigation 316 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.079 on him. And by this time they were all living together, 317 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.480 he and Lolly and the two kids in a house 318 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:22.039 just outside Vancouver proper, And so that was all going along. 319 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.960 Right, you talk about that. He eventually agrees to a 320 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:36.599 search of the home and what do police find under 321 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:37.000 the sink? 322 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.519 Yeah, The police by this time, when they found out 323 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.480 about all this, were really looking at him quite closely, 324 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.960 and turned out one day and asked him if they 325 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.680 could look inside his house, and another stupid thing he 326 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:55.000 did would say come on in. And they got really 327 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.119 excited when they looked under the kitchen sink and found 328 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:03.359 a can of also trial Also trials is about ninety 329 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.000 percent arsenic, and it was a popular weed killer and 330 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:10.680 a rat killer back then. Arsnik was used for both. 331 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.920 And they looked around the garden and saw that Rennie 332 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.039 wasn't a gardener, and Janine's confirmed that her mother didn't 333 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:23.319 a garden either, So they got the can of also 334 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.440 trials and had it analyzed, and it was missing about 335 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:31.880 the same amount that would have been needed to kill esther. Now, again, 336 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.000 all of this is circumstantial evidence. They had no actual proof, 337 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:39.400 but the circumstantial evidence was building rapidly. 338 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:47.079 Now from there, what is their break, what is their 339 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.680 impetus to be able to arrest Renee for the murder 340 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.920 of his wife? 341 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.160 Well, they were, as mentioned, they were living together as 342 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:01.359 a family then and did so for the next several months, 343 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.640 and then Rene and Lolly took out a marriage license 344 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.160 and the police swooped because they knew that if they 345 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.519 were married that they couldn't force Lolly to testify against 346 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.200 her husband. So he was arrested straight away. They'd put 347 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:20.319 off arresting him, I'm told because they were hoping that 348 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.400 he would do something really dumb and lead them to 349 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.200 real evidence that they could charge him with. But he 350 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:26.880 never did that. 351 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.920 What type of information did police believe that Lollie might 352 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.519 have and what did Lollie tell them if anything about 353 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.160 Renee and his plans did get from that? 354 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.440 Not much that She never did testify at the court 355 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.200 trials and I'm not sure why that was, but she 356 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:56.920 did testify at the inquest and pretty well lied. She 357 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.920 was the problem for me, I believe if she's still alive, 358 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.400 but I couldn't find her, and I really don't know 359 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.400 whether she was another victim of his or whether she 360 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:14.759 was complicit in the murder. I get the sense that 361 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.160 he probably he told everyone he was getting the divorced 362 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.480 except for his wife, and I suspect he originally told 363 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.319 her the same thing, but after he was arrested. I mean, 364 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.640 she must have known that he was responsible, you know, 365 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.880 when they found out that Esther was murdered through Arsnek 366 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.480 and she still stuck by him, and she then Jeanine 367 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.480 after he went to jail, Jeanine stayed with her and 368 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.599 Don for the next five years. 369 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.319 Now you talk about that stay with her, and you 370 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:51.400 write in the book because of course he had this 371 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.680 incredible access with the meeting with Jeanine, how did Lolly 372 00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:59.680 treat her and what was the home life like with 373 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:04.000 Don and herself, but also what was the situation with 374 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:13.920 Renee in prison and Janine's relationship with Esther's parents, her grandparents, 375 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:18.359 what did they say to her ab both them and 376 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.599 in real terms. What was the relationship with her grandparents 377 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:23.039 after this? 378 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:28.920 Yeah, that was really awful. Actually, she had a close 379 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:34.519 relationship with her grandparents esther's mom and dad before all this, 380 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.279 and while her mother was alive, and after Renee was 381 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.000 convicted of capital murder, which at that point came into 382 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.279 death penalty, he still had custody of Jeanine and he'd 383 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.799 put over his custody to Jeanine to Lolly, so Lolly 384 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.799 actually had custody of Jeanine's and so that was really bizarre. 385 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.759 And he wouldn't let her see her grandparents, and he 386 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:00.680 told Janine that they were going to kidnap, that they 387 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.880 were horrible people, that if she went anywhere near them, 388 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.640 that she'd never see him again. And he had her 389 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:12.519 basically manipulated and brainwashed into being really frightened dolphin, And 390 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.039 so she wasn't allowed to see them and didn't for 391 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:18.359 the next five years, and Lolly and Don became her 392 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.559 only family. Don she's the babysit a light and they 393 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:28.119 were really close, and I was really interested about how 394 00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.920 Lolly treated her. I had a certain amount of sympathy 395 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.680 for this woman. She was only twenty six, she had 396 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:36.960 a six year old son. She was a widow. She'd 397 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.240 been fired from c KMW for having an affair with 398 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.079 a senior manager while he kept his job, which I 399 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:48.799 just find outrageous. And then she was financially responsible for 400 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.000 this thirteen year old by that point, which can't have 401 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:57.680