WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:39.640 journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:46.399 In nineteen seventy one, Montgomery County Deputy Sheriff James Tappan 8 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:52.679 Hall was gunned down outside a Maryland country club. The 9 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:59.560 case went cold, no suspect, no answers, no closure, but 10 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:05.879 never gave up trying to find her father's killer. Fifty 11 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:11.159 years later, cold case detectives finally reopened the investigation and 12 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.719 identified a suspect whose shocking confession revealed a detail never 13 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:24.560 released to the public. Hall was shot twice. A Second 14 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:28.959 Shot by doctor Michael Wiseberg is a gripping true crime 15 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:34.359 story of justice delayed but not denied, and a deeply 16 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.879 personal tale of second chances for both a grieving family 17 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:44.680 and the author himself. The book that we're featuring this 18 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:49.920 evening is a Second Shot, The Pursuit of justice in 19 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:55.840 Maryland's oldest cold case murder. With my special guest author 20 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:02.480 Michael F. Wisberg. Welcome to the program, and thank you 21 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:05.120 very much for this interview. Michael F. 22 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:09.080 Weisberg, Thank you very much, Dan for inviting me. 23 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.080 Thank you so much, and congratulations on your book A 24 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:13.960 Second Shot. 25 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:15.840 Thank you. 26 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:22.120 Now, I understand you are a doctor, a gastro enterologist, 27 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.439 and you have a patient named Anna Hall who was 28 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:29.759 referred to by a colleague. Tell us about how you 29 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.560 became involved in the author of this book. 30 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.479 Anna Hall was the only patient ever sent to me 31 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:39.000 by her doctor. It just happened that she came to 32 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.159 see me as an elderly woman, and when she came, 33 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:46.159 she came with her daughter, Carolyn Filo. Carolyn decided that 34 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:47.800 she liked the way I took care of her mother, 35 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:50.680 so she asked me to be her doctor as well. 36 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:54.479 I took care of her for over thirty years until 37 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.240 one day in twoenty and twenty two, she came to 38 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.639 me and told me that her father, who had been 39 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.840 murdered in nineteen seventy one, over fifty years before, and 40 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:09.879 the case had gone cold for fifty years. That the detectives, 41 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.879 three female detectives, had come together and had been able 42 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.680 to figure out by re looking at the case, the 43 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.439 clue that everyone else had missed, they'd been able to 44 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.840 solve the case, obtain a confession, and now she wanted 45 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.280 a book to be written. 46 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:24.120 About the case. 47 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:26.520 And because she'd enjoyed my two novels that I had 48 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:30.080 written previously, The Hospitalist, and in the end, she wanted 49 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:31.000 me to write the book. 50 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.879 You didn't immediately agree to write this book. What things 51 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:39.960 did you have to consider before agreeing to write this book? 52 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:43.639 I was not a journalist, and it sounded like it 53 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:45.319 was the kind of book that would be a journalist. 54 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:49.039 I enjoyed doing fiction for my imagination, this would be 55 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:51.759 a true story. It would require a lot of research 56 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.639 and a lot of interviews, and I know if I 57 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.479 had these skills to be able to do that. But 58 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.599 finally she convinced me that the story was already there 59 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:05.639 for me. The murderer had confessed, he had waived extradition, 60 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.319 Everyone would be willing to talk to me, including the 61 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.840 detectives and prosecutors. The case was there and just needed 62 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:14.240 to be written. So that's what convinced me that I 63 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:16.279 could go ahead and do it. It was just a matter 64 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.560 of taking the story and put it into a way 65 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:20.519 that would be appealing to readers. 66 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.360 Now you're right about the first meeting May one, twenty 67 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:29.399 twenty three. You flew from Dallas to Washington, DC, which 68 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:33.160 is about you saying put a thirty minute train ride 69 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:37.480 from Rockville, where this murder happened originally, and you went 70 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.279 to the Pilos and their family and went to meet them. 71 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.519 Caroline and Bob tell us about this meeting and what 72 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.079 happened at that meeting. 73 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.040 Carol and Bob picked me up at the metro station 74 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.560 in Gaithersburg, and they took me to the courthouse where 75 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.560 we were going to meet with the sheriff. Sheriff you 76 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.480 who met with us and talked to us the about 77 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.680 his understanding of the case, what had happened to Carolyn's father, 78 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.839 Captain J. T. Smith, James T. Smith, who was a 79 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:11.959 deputy sheriff. And then I was going to meet with 80 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:16.519 the prosecutors and talk to the detectives. The prosecutor came 81 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.519 in be prosecutor. Prosecutor who was prosecuting the case, Donald Fenton, 82 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:24.839 came into the meeting room, and I introduced myself and 83 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.839 talked to her and told her I was recording things, 84 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:31.040 and she informed me that I could not record anything, 85 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:35.079 that the case was now going to be contested, that 86 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.959 the suspect had withdrawn his guilty plead, and that a 87 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:43.959 private law firm from Washington, d c. Which with my 88 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.240 research I found was one of the top law firms 89 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.279 in the world, Covington and Berling, was going to take 90 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:51.600 his case. And so since it was now going to 91 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:54.959 be prosecuted, that no one could give me any information, 92 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.279 and that I would just have to follow along and 93 00:05:57.319 --> 00:05:58.879 write the book as things went along. 94 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.519 Yeah, things have changed from their original prognosis of this 95 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:12.240 case exactly. Now, let's get to October twenty third, nineteen 96 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.160 seventy one and the night of the murder. 97 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.199 Okay, So, James T. 98 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.519 Hall was a gentleman who worked on bus transmissions for 99 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.519 a company called Metro Transit. But he also had a 100 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.160 job as a deputy sheriff. And he got that job 101 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:35.959 by working security at a amusement park in that area. 102 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:39.560 And they also had them working security at the Manor 103 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.959 Country Club. There was a beautiful country club where they'd 104 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:46.199 had in the area quite a few break ins and 105 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:48.759 different things going on, and so they wanted to have 106 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.959 deputy sheriffs patrolling that area to keep an eye on 107 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.720 things that also had reports and people trying to break 108 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.879 into the coke machines at the country club, people doing vandalism. 109 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.199 He wasn't sup to work that night, he was off, 110 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:04.759 but he was called thirty minutes before the shift started 111 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.680 by the sheriff who was supposed to work, Sheriff Jim Young, 112 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:10.720 who asked him to work and said he had a 113 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.480 family mat matter to ten to two, So he left. 114 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.079 James Hall left his family at the house. 115 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.920 It was a rainy, dark night, got his raincoat, got 116 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:24.480 his flashlight, gun pipe which he loved to smoke, got 117 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.759 in his car and drove to the Manor Country Club 118 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.480 where seven o'clock to one o'clock shift where he would 119 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.319 be in charge of patrolling around the parking lot at 120 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:34.439 the country club. 121 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.959 And keeping an eye on things and what happens during 122 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:39.079 the course of the night. 123 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.680 During the night about four and a half, about three 124 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.399 and a half hours into his shift, at ten point thirty, 125 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.759 he apparently got out of his car and saw something 126 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.399 in the area of the parking lot next to the 127 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:59.399 golf course. He started walking over there and probably saw 128 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.600 things that were there were household items that were sacked 129 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:06.839 up in that area, and they included a jack, lantern 130 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.120 and a step stool, as well as other things, and 131 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:13.319 apparently he saw someone and said what are you doing? 132 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.319 A shot rang out and hit his flash flight, which 133 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:19.920 he turned on to be able to see things on 134 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.040 this rainy, dark night, and knocked it ten feet out 135 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:24.759 of his arms. Behind him. 136 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.519 He turned, probably to get away, and as he turned 137 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.560 to get away, a shot was fired, the second shot 138 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.559 which hit him in the back of the head, in 139 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:36.799 the lower part on the left side of his back 140 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:38.639 of his head, and went all the way through his 141 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:42.279 head scullen brain to where it lodged behind his right eyebrow. 142 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.559 He fell to the ground and was found there on 143 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.639 the ground, still breathing barely, by a couple who are 144 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.360 coming back from a date, and then by five boys 145 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.039 who were trying to vandalize the coke machines that night 146 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.600 and who had left because they'd heard sirens which turned 147 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.080 out to be fire trucks, but then came back and 148 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:07.759 found him his body lying there. They went into the 149 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.879 country club and had the operator call for the police 150 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.519 and ambulance to come get him, and they saved with 151 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:15.639 the body until they. 152 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:21.360 Came now you're right about the family. A call to 153 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:26.639 the family about JT's shooting and requesting a rush to 154 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:27.279 the hospital. 155 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:29.039 That's right. 156 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.600 The children, the grandchildren were staying with the grandmother, Anna Hall, 157 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.879 and the Rob Bob and Carolyn Filo had gone out 158 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:41.960 on a date and were at their own house. The 159 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:46.600 call went to Bob Filo, who was a canine officer 160 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:51.919 and then a police officer, and he and Carolyn called 161 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:55.159 Anna Hall and then went and picked her up and 162 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:58.440 they went to the hospital where JT was in the 163 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:04.399 emergency room. A surgeon, a neurosurgeon, came in dressed in 164 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.759 a tuxedo, examined JT. 165 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:08.000 Examined, looked at the. 166 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.960 X rays that had been done, and pulled Bob to 167 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.759 the side and said he's not going to make it. 168 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:17.000 There's no brain function. He at that time was on 169 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.960 a ventilator because he couldn't breathe and to protect his airway, 170 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.039 and he eventually ended up saying three days in the 171 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.840 hospital before it was there was still no brain function, 172 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.720 no hope for any recovery, so he was taken off 173 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:34.000 the ventilator and within a half an hour he died. 174 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:39.919 You say there's a funeral October twenty ninth, nineteen seventy one. 175 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:44.080 But also let's talk about Robert Filo Junior, JT's son 176 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:49.440 in law now at Rockville. He's offering a reward for 177 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:54.159 two thousand dollars, but the newspapers refused to publicize it. 178 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.440 Explain who Robert is at that time, where he's working 179 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.360 at that time, and tell us about this reward dispute. 180 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.799 It was actually working at the same police station from 181 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:13.840 Montgomery County that the detective who was assigned to the case, 182 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:20.039 ow Sweat was working, so they fairly quickly moved Robert 183 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:23.120 out to another station so he could not be around it. 184 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.120 He could not ask questions about the case. What he 185 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.639 did do was he and the family in the funeral 186 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:34.039 notice in the obituary said that rather than anybody sending flowers, 187 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.200 they wanted people to contribute to a fund to try 188 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.639 to find the killer of James T. Hall. The country 189 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:44.360 club man or country club also said they would match 190 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.240 with the amount that was raised. A thousand dollars were raised, 191 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.519 was raised, and they contributed a thousand dollars in the 192 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:53.759 country club, so he had a two thousand dollars reward. 193 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:59.360 They asked the police chief at that time to publicize that, 194 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.879 but for some reason it was not done. They would 195 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.639 not do an article about it at all, and Bob 196 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.240 became very disillusioned. As he said in an interview about 197 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.519 seven years later when he was practicing law, and he 198 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.879 said they had two dogs that had been murdered around 199 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.960 the same time. They offered a fifty dollars reward for 200 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:22.679 whoever found who had killed these two dogs. That was 201 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:27.240 put into the newspaper and publicized. But this reward for JT. 202 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.759 Hall's murder, finding the murder suspect or finding who had 203 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:33.519 done it was never publicized. 204 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.399 Let's get back to how JT was found and in 205 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:43.519 what condition, And also we have to mention the reason 206 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:47.080 for the patrol for the sheriff Department to be hired 207 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.679 at this Manor County country Club was that there was 208 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.159 people breaking into the soda machines and other various theft 209 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.960 and robbery or burglaries in the area. Tell us about 210 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:03.320 the Soda machine gang and actually who found JT and 211 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.039 reported to police. 212 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.879 Well, the driver of the car of the soda machine 213 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:10.320 gang was a man named a young man named Norman 214 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:14.399 Shoemaker and his father was actually also a policeman with 215 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:18.519 Montgomery County, but he was known as being someone who 216 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.120 was constantly in trouble with the law. There were other 217 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:23.879 boys in the car with and one of them was 218 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.559 named Robert Cannaveri, and they had just broken into some 219 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.120 laundry machines at a different location when they decided to 220 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.279 come over and break into the coke machines that night. 221 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:38.679 So they're breaking into the coke machines when they heard sirens. 222 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.600 They were unsuccessful in breaking in, but they got into 223 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:44.840 the car drove away, but then we're able to pass 224 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.240 by the sirens, which were coming from fire trucks, so 225 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.159 they came back. When they drove back, they found something 226 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.120 that they thought was just a bunch of garbage in 227 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:55.559 the middle of the parking lot, and they could have 228 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:57.600 almost run over it, but they got out of the 229 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.960 car and they realized that it was the deputy sheriff, 230 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.759 dressed in his yellow raincoat. 231 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.720 His hat was off, his head was bleeding. 232 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:08.080 There was blood everywhere, but there was so much rain 233 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:10.039 it was washing. 234 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.200 The blood away. 235 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:13.960 He was lying with his head at about a forty 236 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.720 five degree angle and barely breathing. The boy, Robert Cannaveri, 237 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:21.559 stayed with him and held his head to try to 238 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.559 help him breathe, while the other four boys who were 239 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:27.639 part of this was called the Coke Machine Gang, who 240 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:30.159 were breaking into the Coke Machine that night, all went 241 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.039 into the country club to tell them to a call 242 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.559 for police and an ambulance. It's happened that they had 243 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.120 been beaten there by a couple who had come across 244 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.240 the body a few seconds before and who were out 245 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.320 on a date, and they had also gone in and 246 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.519 asked the operator to call. He was barely breathing, there 247 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:52.639 was blood everywhere. The rain was washing everything away, and 248 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:55.759 they stayed with him until the boys and the couple 249 00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:00.080 stayed with him until the ambulance arrived to take him away. 250 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.240 So how did police proceed with this case? Before we 251 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.120 talk about it going cool? 252 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:14.080 That night, there was Sheriff Boone who was sorry's gonna 253 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:17.000 be off. Detective Boone who was in charge of this 254 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.720 crime scene, and he tried to rope things off and 255 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:23.639 keep things as safe as possible. They were able to 256 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.559 find that night a gun, which as it turned out, 257 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:29.960 belonged to James T. 258 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:31.559 Hall, and when they. 259 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.679 Moved his body they found it underneath him. It was 260 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.960 outside of his jackets. We'd probably reached for it after 261 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:40.919 the first gun shot. The also were able to find 262 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.159 the flashlight, which had been knocked out of his hand 263 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:47.279 by a gunshot, about ten to twenty feet away from 264 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:51.600 the body. And they also found his pipe which he 265 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.000 probably instead of pulling out the gun, pulled out his 266 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.559 pipe which he loved to smoke, and that was in 267 00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:01.200 a water drainage that was about defeat away from the body. 268 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:03.919 The rain had washed all the way down far away 269 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:09.320 from the body. Detectives that night were they're called ow Sweat, 270 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.679 who was the lead detective on the case. He was 271 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.000 a gentleman who was considered their top homicide detective. He 272 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.919 had done about forty cases in his career, and when 273 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.200 I talked to him, he told me that he had closed, 274 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.039 which in their parlance means he had solved thirty nine 275 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:26.679 of them. 276 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.960 But the one he never closed and he wanted to 277 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:32.519 close the most was Bob Filo, who was working in 278 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:38.679 the same district office as him, his father in law, JT. Hall. 279 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.960 So what he did was he interviewed, he said seventy 280 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.960 five to one hundred people. They did looked at the 281 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.759 crime scene, they looked for any kind of physical evidence, 282 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.879 but there was absolutely no physical evidence they could find. 283 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:53.519 There were no fingerprints. 284 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.440 Anything the possible could have been a fingerprint probably was 285 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:01.399 washed away. They interviewed everyone there, include the Coke machine boys. 286 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.200 They went and interviewed neighbors, and they could not find 287 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.079 anything that would lead them to a suspect in the 288 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.000 murder case. Ow Sweat said that he went over it, 289 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:18.640 worked it, and he centered in on Norman Shoemaker as being. 290 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:19.799 The likely culprit. 291 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:25.039 Why well, first of all, Shoemaker's father, who was a policeman, 292 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.000 told him not to talk to the police. So unlike 293 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.119 the other boys who were willing to give the comments 294 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.200 and remarks about what they saw what they did, Norman 295 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.880 Shoemaker was very reticent and really wouldn't. 296 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:39.720 Cooperate with the police. 297 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.640 Also, he had a history, as I said, of run 298 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.279 ins with the law, and each time when he's had 299 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.079 these runnings with the law, his father had stepped in 300 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.119 for him, which to keep him from having anything happen 301 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.279 to him. And I think that left a very bad 302 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.240 taste in the mouth of the other police officers. So 303 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.279 in what we could in both medicine and in police work, 304 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.839 they have what's called tunnel vision. You get one thing 305 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.119 once something happens, there's one characteristic one lab test, went 306 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.200 X ray and medicine, or one thing that happens one 307 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.519 suspect in a murder case like this, and you center 308 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.359 in on that to the exclusion of everything else. And 309 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.640 it seems as like what over ws Sweat did. And 310 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.680 because of that, thinking that this was a man who 311 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:25.519 did it, and not being able to find anything to 312 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.759 really prove it, the case was pursued by him for 313 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.279 a couple of years and then by other people and 314 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.359 it went cold. When a case goes cold, that means 315 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.400 the original investigative team has either left, there's no one 316 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.039 that's still working the case, or has been tried for 317 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.400 at least three years. They've been looking for a suspect 318 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.240 and none has been found. And that's what happened with 319 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:47.799 this case. 320 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.519 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 321 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.559 these messages. Now you talk about this case going cold, 322 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.720 But Caroline follow doesn't let this go. She waits a 323 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.319 couple years for the police to run their course in 324 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.319 terms of the investigation, but after that she is routinely 325 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.640 calling them and asking them for any updates. She wants 326 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.559 this thing to be solved, doesn't she. 327 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:14.480 That's exactly right. 328 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.400 She had an incredibly close relationship with her father. 329 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.319 She loved him, and she idolized him. 330 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:22.599 And she realized at the age of twenty eight that 331 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:25.519 she was now without this man who'd been such a central. 332 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.119 Part of her life and how important he'd been for her. 333 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.519 And so she said that even as she aged, She 334 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.160 said that if as she aged, she realized she was 335 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.039 still alive, so that the person that had done this 336 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:39.599 to her father very. 337 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:40.720 Easily could still be alive. 338 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.640 Also, she was also inspired by her husband, who become 339 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.759 a very successful attorney. He decied the police work was 340 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.640 no longer for him, probably at least in some great 341 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.720 part due to his disappointment in the failure of the 342 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.680 police to tholve this case. He'd become an attorney, and 343 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.920 she marveled at how on these different cases he would 344 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.640 find some angle for something to do in order to 345 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.440 win the case. And she thought, his brilliance and winning 346 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.759 these cases, why couldn't someone use brilliance to look at 347 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.119 this whole case of her father and figure out what 348 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.279 had happened and put the pieces together. So she would 349 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.720 call on a regular basis. Her mother, Anahal, who lived 350 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.160 until two thousand and five and who actually remarried later 351 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.200 on and then her second husband died she'd lived in 352 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:32.319 two thousand and five, was very bitter and very upset 353 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.799 that they never found the murderer of her husband. But 354 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.920 she wasn't as active as Carolyn, who took the lead 355 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:41.640 for the family. 356 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.599 You talk about early in this book about a book 357 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.880 you happened to read which was centered in the same 358 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.039 area in Montgomery County. It was from an author named 359 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.359 Mark Bowden and was titled The Last Stone. What did 360 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:01.119 you garner from reading that book in terms of comparisons 361 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:03.279 to the case that you were writing about. 362 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.240 First of all, I had read that book. I've read 363 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.680 it now twice straight through as well as going back. 364 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.920 And it had occurred in the same area Montgomery County 365 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.039 and Maryland, and both occurred in the nineteen seventies. The 366 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:24.000 murder of James T. Hall occurred in nineteen seventy one. 367 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.480 The case that you're referring to, which is in Bowden's book, 368 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:33.160 was the abduction of the Lion's sisters, who were ages 369 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.759 ten and twelve in broad daylight from the Wheaton Plaza 370 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:43.880 Mall in nineteen seventy five. These two young girls were abducted, 371 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.960 They were raped, murdered, their bodies were burned, and they 372 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.079 were never found. They never found any traces of them. 373 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.000 They were thought to have been buried somewhere in Virginia. 374 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:01.799 Both cases had similarities that were very striking, first of all, 375 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.759 and we'll talk about the suspect and how they found 376 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:05.799 them in the JT. 377 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:06.559 Hall's case. 378 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:08.960 But first of all, it turns out that both the 379 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:13.559 suspects in these cases were teenage boys who were living 380 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:17.039 on the streets, not in houses, but had been thrown 381 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:20.680 out of houses and were living on the streets. Both 382 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:24.400 of them had made statements to the police. In the 383 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:29.519 case of the Lion's Sisters, the man's name was Welch, 384 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.000 and he had gone to the police a week after 385 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.039 the murders and said to them that he had information 386 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.680 that he had seen who had abducted the girls from 387 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:40.079 the mall. 388 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.359 The police listened to his what he had. 389 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.359 To say and decided that although he had some of 390 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.519 the facts right and things like that, that other things 391 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.599 were not true. They also gave him a light detective test, 392 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.279 which he flunked, and so they felt that everything he 393 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:59.319 said was not factual and was just being used to 394 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.480 try to get through ward money. As I'll we'll talk 395 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.240 about later in this case, does Mike I dig detail 396 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.440 on the second shot the accused had gone to the 397 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.160 police eighteen months after the murder had occurred while he 398 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.240 was a prisoner in jail for other charges, and had 399 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.599 told the police various details about the case in order 400 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.240 to try to gain leniency from his burglary charges and 401 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.359