1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,439 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,880 Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Robert Gray, one of 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,079 our longtime fans and supporters, who is here to talk 17 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:56,799 to us about the millennial view on various true crime 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,439 happenings at Crossed Virginia. Robert, thank you so much for 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,159 joining us. We're so glad to have you here. 20 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 5: Guys. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:05,760 for having me on. 22 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: So you transition from listener to participant to guests. 23 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 5: I know this is a long time dream. I'm fine. 24 00:01:13,599 --> 00:01:16,920 I think I've been listening since your very first podcast, 25 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,359 and what drew me in was a lot of these 26 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:22,959 cases you covered were in Virginia, in areas of Virginia. 27 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,200 I knew, in particular some of the ones in Blacksburg, 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,760 where I attended undergraduate school. 29 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:32,879 Speaker 2: So let's start there. Tell the listeners the rest of 30 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,439 the listeners a little bit more about yourself, because we 31 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,159 obviously know you, but they would like to know the 32 00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:40,200 basics about you. 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 5: I'm Robert Gray. I was born in Fairfax, Virginia. Have 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,079 been a lifelong resident of Virginia, primarily Northern Virginia. I 35 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,879 attended school undergraduate school at Virginia Tech from twenty thirteen 36 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:58,560 to twenty seventeen, where I majored in political science and 37 00:01:58,599 --> 00:02:03,079 public relations, and then I got my MBA through William 38 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,120 and Mary during the pandemic, primarily virtually, but there was 39 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:09,599 some in person conformance towards the end. From twenty twenty 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,280 to twenty twenty two, since I graduated school, I've been 41 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:17,560 living in the Northern Virginia area, working in corporate growth 42 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:21,759 and strategy for a few technology companies that do business 43 00:02:21,759 --> 00:02:24,680 with the federal government. I've been a long time for 44 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:28,680 true client fan and fan of this podcast, so very 45 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,639 excited to be here and provide whatever perspective I can. 46 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,879 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. We have always really appreciated your 47 00:02:37,039 --> 00:02:41,159 very thoughtful questions, comments and posts on the podcast, so 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,680 when we had the opportunity to have you on, we 49 00:02:43,759 --> 00:02:46,360 jumped at the chance. This is a real thrill for 50 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:49,039 us as well to be able to interact with one 51 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:50,879 of our longtime listeners, So thank you. 52 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: A jumping off point for us, Robert, was you had 53 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,400 sent Kristen and me some very thoughtful private messages after 54 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,000 we did a recap on the Caldwell Fields murders from 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,960 two thousand and nine that involves the murder of Heidichilds 56 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,759 and David Metzler, and it turned out with your experience 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,599 from Virginia Tech, you had some interesting observations about that 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,560 case and even your time in that part of Virginia. So, 59 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,080 just to start off with, you're at Virginia Tech from 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,960 twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen. Did you feel like Virginia 61 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,199 Tech had begun to recover from some of the very 62 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:39,240 dark experiences of the previous couple of years. Kristin and 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,479 I had talked about this very sad pattern for a 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,560 while there. Virginia Tech seemed like it was being hit 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,240 time after time with these terrible tragedies. 66 00:03:48,759 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think by the time I got there, there 67 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,280 was still a memory of these events, especially the events 68 00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:59,080 that occurred in two thousand and seven, but by the 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,599 time I graduated it was ten years ago. There was 70 00:04:02,879 --> 00:04:05,479 very little in terms of the student body first hand 71 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,719 experience with some of these prior cases, and there were 72 00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:11,520 a lot of reforms on campus that occurred to make 73 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,520 it a very safe environment. Most of my memories there 74 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,680 extremely happy, just a phenomenal time that I had while 75 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,680 I was attending university there, and overall it felt like 76 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,519 a very safe community. But you would hear this stuff 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,240 bubble up from the past with some of these cases 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,600 that I'm sure we'll discuss today, where outside of the 79 00:04:31,639 --> 00:04:35,319 main event in two thousand and seven, stuff like the 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,000 case at Caldwell Fields, it had really become almost like 81 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,800 an urban legend at that point where there weren't necessarily 82 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:46,600 names connected to the case, but you would hear about, oh, yes, 83 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,920 there was a couple that was murdered in the nearby 84 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:54,759 National Forest, etc. Etc. Usually as context for being careful 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,600 and being vigilant when you were out hiking or doing 86 00:04:57,639 --> 00:04:59,959 any recreational activities outside camp. 87 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 3: You had mentioned that there had been a lot of 88 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,199 reform that had taken place on the Tech campus as 89 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,680 a result, of course, from the mass shooting in two 90 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,040 thousand and seven and then several other sort of campus crimes. 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,399 Can you talk a little bit about what kind of 92 00:05:16,439 --> 00:05:19,720 reforms were made that sort of helped contributed to this 93 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,600 feeling You said you always felt safe on campus. Can 94 00:05:22,639 --> 00:05:23,680 you talk a little bit about that. 95 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,319 Speaker 5: I think the most noticeable thing in terms of day 96 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,000 to day life was what was called the VTAS short 97 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,680 for Virginia Tech Alert System, which pretty much was a 98 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,639 direct message alert system via text message, email, and other 99 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:44,680 instant forms of communication to let students know if there 100 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:47,839 was an emergency event or a crime on campus, as 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,240 well as things like inclement weather. So, actually, before I 102 00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:54,720 came on the podcast today, I opened up my old 103 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,639 student email and was parsing through some of these alerts, 104 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,759 and there was one, in fact tied to Nicole level case, 105 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,079 which I'm sure we'll couple at some point, and I 106 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,519 actually printed out the transcript of what that alert was 107 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,079 and the messaging. So I'd say that was one of 108 00:06:11,079 --> 00:06:14,680 the most noticeable things that got implemented to my understanding 109 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:18,439 in terms of the text messaging component in two thousand 110 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,639 and eight, right after the shooting occurred. And then in 111 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,120 terms of other reforms, there was a very strong law 112 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:29,360 enforcement presence on campus. You couldn't really go a block 113 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:33,879 without running into VT campus police or in town there 114 00:06:33,959 --> 00:06:37,040 was usually a presence of Blacksburg Police and they had 115 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,199 a very good relationship with the student body and the 116 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,439 Blacksburg community, so that helped to always make us feel safe. 117 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,319 In addition to that, you had things like the blue 118 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:51,680 Light emergency call box systems. They were set up extensively 119 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:55,560 around campus and other areas off campus, like the Huckleberry 120 00:06:55,639 --> 00:07:00,160 Running Trail, and that contributed to a census safety. It 121 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:03,639 was not uncommon to see female students out running alone 122 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,000 even because they've felt this safe with these measures put 123 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,519 in place. And then you also had the Cook Counseling Center, 124 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:15,720 which was an affordable and accessible mental health service on 125 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:19,399 campus that was available to students, and that was strongly 126 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:22,879 emphasized after the events of two thousand and seven as well, 127 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,000 given the mental health side of that story. So you 128 00:07:26,079 --> 00:07:29,399 take all these things together, and I think by the 129 00:07:29,439 --> 00:07:32,759 time I was entering in school, it was probably the 130 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,399 shining example of campus safety in the country, and it 131 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,519 certainly felt. 132 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: Like that there anybody who's not familiar with the size 133 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,360 of the Virginia Tech campus, it is a massive campus. 134 00:07:45,839 --> 00:07:48,759 Can you put in context for anybody who's not familiar 135 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,040 with it, talk a little bit about the size of 136 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,600 Tech and why you need a whole campus police force. 137 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, it really is a city and of itself. I 138 00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:01,399 did some research before I joined today, and as of 139 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,240 fall twenty twenty four, they did an enrollment census at 140 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:10,240 Virginia Tech and the total student population is around thirty 141 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:15,319 nine thousand wow. And I believe around twenty one hundred 142 00:08:15,319 --> 00:08:19,360 of those are in state students thirty one thousand or 143 00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:23,000 undergraduates who are primarily on the Blacksburg campus. And so 144 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,839 it is like a city. People liken it to Hogwarts 145 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:31,560 if you've ever seen a moment cars heard it compared 146 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:34,840 to the United States Military Academy at wets Point. It 147 00:08:34,879 --> 00:08:39,200 has these very prominent stone buildings throughout campus that are 148 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,240 constructed with something called Hokey Stone. It's just a beautiful place, 149 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,279 but it is a very large student body, yet when 150 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,159 you attend there, it becomes pretty small pretty quick. You 151 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:55,759 recognize people, you recognize faces, you recognize names, and there 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,360 is just a strong positive sense of community that goes 153 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,440 throughout the school, especially around football season. I'd say that's what, Yeah, 154 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,159 I think it's best known for is the football tailgating 155 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,480 and athletic culture there. 156 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, my dad is a Hochey from way way back, 157 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:16,159 and we are very familiar with the Virginia Tech football 158 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:19,120 team and the football season. Tech is very different from 159 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,159 Layme and Mary, where you also attended. It's really you 160 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,960 almost can't put the two of them in the same category. 161 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,320 So thank you for clarifying that. For anybody who may 162 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,799 not be familiar with the Tech campus. 163 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: You would reference the Nicole Level murder. Can you talk 164 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,480 a little bit about that and how that impacted the 165 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:37,960 Virginia Tech community. 166 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,639 Speaker 5: Yes, I certainly can. So just to preface this, I 167 00:09:42,799 --> 00:09:46,840 was actually not on campus when that occurred. I was 168 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,720 doing an internship with Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia through 169 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:53,960 the Hokies on the Hill program, and I was up 170 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,519 in Washington that semester, and I had just started my 171 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,799 internship when this occurred. There was a campus alert that 172 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:06,159 went out over email once the perpetrator was arrested, and 173 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,879 then President Sans, the president of the university, sent out 174 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:12,000 a note to the student body as well, and I 175 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,759 have those. I'm happy to share those. 176 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:14,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, please. 177 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,039 Speaker 5: I didn't actually hear about it that way because these 178 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,679 were sent on a Saturday evening and I was not 179 00:10:21,879 --> 00:10:24,480 checking my student email. The way I heard about it 180 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,080 was I was talking with another intern at the time 181 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,039 who went to UVA and we would love to rib 182 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,600 each other given the school's rivalry. We were talking about 183 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:36,279 something related to a true crime show we liked, and 184 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,240 he did you hear about the thing over in Blacksburg recently? 185 00:10:39,799 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: Said? 186 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,919 Speaker 5: What are you talking about? He's just been this awful case. 187 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,200 And then I looked it up and I'm like, oh 188 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,559 my gosh. And I texted my friends who were on 189 00:10:47,639 --> 00:10:51,799 campus and they're like, yeah, it's pretty heavy. The thing 190 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,440 that stood out to me most was no one seemed 191 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,120 to know the perpetrators, which even though it's a big school, 192 00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:03,159 like I said, that small school field and you recognize faces, 193 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:06,840 you recognize names. This was someone I think who was 194 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,039 pretty socially isolated, who was not necessarily a known name 195 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,080 on campus, So that stood out to me. And then 196 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,600 also there was just certain chilling details of that case 197 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:22,360 that I remember really sticking in my memory. Where they 198 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,399 plan the murders was at a restaurant called Cookout, which 199 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,279 is a chain, but it is very famous with the 200 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,679 student body in Blacksburg, at least when I was there, 201 00:11:32,919 --> 00:11:36,240 because it was a common pit stop after the bars 202 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,360 if you had a mee or were in an uber 203 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,639 to go get a meal at Cookout. And when we 204 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:44,759 heard that this awful crime was planned at the Cookout, 205 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,600 people were just disgusted by that. The dorm he lived in, 206 00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:51,759 I think was a fairly well known dorm on campus. 207 00:11:51,759 --> 00:11:54,080 It was stuff like that where people were just in 208 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,080 shock that something so awful could occur, and that there 209 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,200 were these well known places. The Walmart where they got 210 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,960 the supplies was usually where you went to pick up 211 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,600 school supplies when you were moving in and stuff for 212 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,080 your dorm or your apartment. So there were all these 213 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,919 familiar places that were revealed in the case that really 214 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:15,600 stood out to me, and I think stood out to 215 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:17,720 a lot of the student body that just made it 216 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,000 a chilling experience. 217 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,919 Speaker 3: There's got to be a certain amount of cognitive dissonance 218 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:24,960 involved in that, knowing a place that you're so familiar 219 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,440 with has been involved in this terrible crime, and. 220 00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 5: I think that was hard for a lot of the 221 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,279 student body to reconcile. Again, I wasn't on campus that 222 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,279 exact time, but I do remember the reaction of the 223 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,960 student body of people I was in touch with, and 224 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,320 then going back the next semester. By then, I don't 225 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,879 think it was as widely covered. There's always that underlying 226 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:48,639 undertone of that. 227 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,519 Speaker 2: There was something that was very striking about that too, 228 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,960 which is that, unfortunately, a lot of times when we're 229 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,039 talking about prime on campus, it's directed at students, right, 230 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,639 But in this exact example, the two offenders were students, 231 00:13:02,919 --> 00:13:07,559 victimizing a much younger girl and nicole level. There was 232 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,039 something about that I found incredibly disturbing. I don't mean 233 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,639 to imply that college students never do anything wrong. Far 234 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,159 from it. The people do and say dumb things and 235 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,360 sometimes hurtful things. Murder on a college campus is not 236 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,399 usually part of the mix. 237 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 5: Right, And I think that was so striking with this 238 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,480 case was it was very out of character, especially for 239 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,039 the school we all knew and the culture there. 240 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,399 Speaker 3: Move over to twenty fourteen for a minute, because that 241 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:41,639 was also an impactful year. Talk to us a little 242 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,960 bit about your memories about UVA student Hannah Graham's disappearance 243 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,919 and murder in twenty fourteen that was eventually linked via 244 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:54,720 DNA to the murder of tech student Morgan Harrington from 245 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,720 two thousand and nine. What do you remember about Hannah's 246 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:03,480 disappearance and the outsized media coverage that came with that. 247 00:14:04,159 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 5: It's a great question, and I have pretty extensive memory 248 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,240 of this case in particular, and this kind of goes 249 00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:14,279 into what we were referencing before this millennial perspective on 250 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,360 true crime, as I'm part of the generation that really 251 00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:20,600 grew up with social media for the first time, and 252 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:23,960 this is one of the first cases I remember receiving 253 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,639 extensive organic social media coverage, as in you had people 254 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:34,360 in your network who were resharing articles or the missing 255 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:38,360 person's content that was being published at the time. And 256 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:42,840 I just remember my newsfeed on Facebook being flooded with 257 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:48,000 people resharing articles about this case, but in particular the 258 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,120 missing person's digital poster of her, and I remember this 259 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,759 day the screenshot of the CCTV footage of what she 260 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,600 was wearing, and that being why circulated, and then as 261 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:04,919 there were updates in the case, that also got circulated 262 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,720 as well. And what really stood out to me was 263 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,639 a lot of the people reposting this were female friends 264 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:14,919 of mine. I think this really struck a chord with them. 265 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,960 It was something that I think garnered a lot of 266 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,480 organic traffic on my feed because she, like me, was 267 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:25,480 from Northern Virginia, and so a lot of Northern Virginia 268 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:29,279 people were either connected to her and by the first 269 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,679 degree or the second degree, or what have you. I 270 00:15:32,679 --> 00:15:34,879 think that struck a chord with a lot of people 271 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:38,039 as well. And there was a big cultural significance to 272 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,200 this too, because there was beginning to be a shift 273 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,360 in the conversation around violence against women and sexual assault 274 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:49,399 on campus and this was really, I think in line 275 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,000 with what later would bubble up as the me too movement. 276 00:15:53,639 --> 00:15:56,159 And of course that was underscored by the fact that 277 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,279 in November of that year, the Rolling Stone article about 278 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:03,960 UVA and sexual assault on campus, which is now attracted 279 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,600 was published and that widely circulated on social media as well, 280 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,559 and so those two being so close together, there was 281 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:17,399 this broader conversation around safety on campus and violence against 282 00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:20,440 women and all of these topics that really came to 283 00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:23,360 the forefront later on. But I would say that was 284 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:25,440 the seeds of this, at least in Virginia. 285 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:29,399 Speaker 3: You had alluded earlier to the fact that UVA and 286 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:33,399 Virginia Tech have a pretty intense rival, right, and so 287 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,679 anybody outside of Virginia who doesn't know take it as 288 00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:39,440 a fact UVA in Virginia Tech or when they get 289 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,960 together it's a barn burner. I know that both universities 290 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,120 also are able to stand together when something like this happens. 291 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,399 Do you remember how Tech students, either individually or as 292 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:56,320 a communities came together to support UVA when they learned 293 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,399 that this horrible thing had happened to Hannah Graham. 294 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,559 Speaker 5: I think when you have tragedy like the Hannah Gram 295 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:04,480 case or what happened at Tech in two thousand and seven, 296 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,680 that whole rivalry goes to the back burner. Any solidarity 297 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,079 across those two campuses. And of course this case was 298 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,559 later linked to the murder of Morgan Harrington, who was 299 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,000 a Virginia Tech student, and so I think the intertwining 300 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,839 of those fates between the two schools really reinforced that 301 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,599 degree of solidarity. But yeah, when it came to stuff 302 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,759 like this, I think what struck me the most about 303 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,920 this case and what bothered me about it was although 304 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,519 I didn't know her, she seemed so much like someone 305 00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:41,920 I did know, especially within the Virginia University system. She 306 00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:44,039 just seemed like someone you could go to class with 307 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,960 or be friends with, and I think a lot of 308 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,039 people felt that way. 309 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,079 Speaker 2: One of the things that really resonated with me when 310 00:17:50,079 --> 00:17:54,119 we spoke to the Harringtons and Jane, Lilly and Vance, 311 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,960 three of them had founded helped save the next girl 312 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,240 as a result of losing Morgan was a story I 313 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:04,480 had never heard before. They mentioned that the Virginia State 314 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:10,400 Police investigators had said that it might take another sexual 315 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,400 assault or murder for them to be able to track 316 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:19,839 down Morgan's killer, and that is exactly what happened. Five 317 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,160 years had gone by, and then sadly we lost Hannah Graham. 318 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,160 But it's Hannah Graham's death that leads to a connection 319 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,640 via DNA to Morgan Harrington's case. And then a third 320 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:37,279 still unnamed survivor of sexual assault up in Northern Virginia. 321 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:40,839 It's amazing they were basically able to predict the future 322 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,640 that it might take another person's death to be able 323 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,039 to link that to Morgan Harrington's death. And I'd never 324 00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:51,680 heard that story before, and I just remember just being 325 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,359 shocked listening to that. I think the investigators were quite 326 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,960 prescient in saying that it struck me as so sad 327 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,359 that's what it took to help solve these three cases. 328 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 5: Absolutely tragic, I agree, And the fact that Jesse Matthews 329 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,839 was able to operate for so long undetected, I think 330 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,319 highlights some of the holes and flaws in the system 331 00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:18,559 at the time that were beginning to become a part 332 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,200 of the conversation now. It's interesting you mentioned the case 333 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,720 up in Northern Virginia. I didn't realize till years later 334 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,519 that occurred relatively close by to where I went to school. 335 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,559 In fact, I passed Rock Garden Drive every day on 336 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:37,039 my way to school, where that case occurred, and where 337 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:40,559 they've made that DNA link that linked those three cases. 338 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,759 That chills up my spine too. 339 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 3: So there's all. 340 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 5: These true crime cases in Virginia that I feel like 341 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:50,400 I'm just a third degree away from it's a shape 342 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,960 or form, and it really humanizes that experience, especially as 343 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,480 a consumer of true crime. 344 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,759 Speaker 3: I love that you mentioned that because you had alluded 345 00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:02,480 ear to the fact that by the time you got 346 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:05,640 to Virginia Tech, the Caldwell Fields case and taken on 347 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,880 this sort of urban legend type of aspect that does happen. 348 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,400 By the time I was in high school, Bill's Sisters 349 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,519 case had taken on that kind of urban legend aspect 350 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,200 for my generation. I think that it is very interesting 351 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,200 that over time we see crimes become dehumanized in that 352 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,160 way they take on the specter of urban legend, and 353 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,240 it really does take someone like you to be able 354 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:31,839 to look at it and go, you know what, there 355 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:34,920 are actual there are human beings there, faces behind here. 356 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,240 It is not just something that we tell over campfire 357 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:38,680 at night. 358 00:20:39,319 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 5: And that's why, as a consumer of true crime, I've 359 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,720 always been hesitant to say it's a form of entertainment. 360 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:47,519 To me, I like to view it as a form 361 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:51,480 of knowledge or being able to gain information or insight, 362 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:54,480 and yes, it can be interesting, but I've always been 363 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:57,839 comfortable when people say, oh, it's so entertaining to watch 364 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,839 this show or something like that of true crime docuseries 365 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,200 like any other person. But I hesitate at saying that 366 00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:10,319 word entertaining because these are real families and real people involved, 367 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:14,599 and I think my exposure to these cases, especially during college, 368 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,200 shape that perspective. 369 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about this shooting range 370 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,640 near Caldwell Fields, which is the place where Heidi Childs 371 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,880 and David Messler were killed in August two thousand and nine. 372 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,279 Several years later, you're at school there. At some point 373 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,000 you made your way to this shooting range, So tell 374 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:37,119 us a little bit about it. 375 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 5: Sure, So I'll start with this. I grew up in 376 00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:45,079 a family where we hunted and we had firearms for 377 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,039 recreational use, and my father attended the United States Military 378 00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:52,319 Academy at West Point, so did my younger brother. They 379 00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:57,440 always drilled into us, respectively, being a responsible steward of 380 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,279 firearms and gun safety in particular. And so that was 381 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,200 the mentality I had whenever I was around firearms or 382 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:10,880 engaged in recreational shooting. And so I had a few 383 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,799 friends who were in the Cora Cadets at Virginia Tech 384 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,400 who were on an ROTC track and were going to 385 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,599 be heading into the Marines, and they were firearm owners, 386 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,559 and so was my other younger brother who attended Virginia 387 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:26,400 Tech with me as well, and we went on two 388 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,240 occasions that I remember distinctly to a range that was 389 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,359 close to Blacksburg in what is known as the Jefferson 390 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,039 National Forests, so public forest land that is under the 391 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:42,920 purview of the National Park Service. I believe the range 392 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,480 is only about fifteen minutes outside of Blacksburg. I think 393 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,119 it's close to six to eight miles by how the 394 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,960 crow flies, But it feels a world way because if 395 00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:58,000 for those of you who knows Blacksburg, or even for 396 00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:02,039 those of you don't, it's there, very hopping town and community. 397 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,319 But you go ten minutes outside of it and you're 398 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,440 in southwest Virginia in Appalachia. 399 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:11,039 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll be right back 400 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:18,720 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 401 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:19,640 Mindover Murder. 402 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,799 Speaker 5: Beautiful part of the state, but very remote, very rustic, 403 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,200 and so even a fifteen minute drive can transport you 404 00:23:27,279 --> 00:23:30,480 to a whole different world. And that's where this range was. 405 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,720 It was down four four sixty West, which is a 406 00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:38,720 major transportation artery in the area. If you follow that highway, 407 00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:42,160 eventually you will get into West Virginia if you keep going. 408 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,759 The range is off of for sixty on a road 409 00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:50,680 I believe is called Craig Creek Road. It's an interesting 410 00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:54,759 range by many accounts. It's very different. It's a public range, 411 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,680 but it's very different than the public ranges I had 412 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,240 ever been to in Northern Virginia, which are very well regulated, 413 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,559 have a supervised staff where you have to reserve spots, 414 00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,759 et cetera, et cetera. My impression when we arrived at 415 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:12,160 the range the first time was this place is a 416 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,440 little bit on the sketchy side for my There was 417 00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:18,200 no range safety officer overseeing the range, so it was 418 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,960 completely patron regulated, meaning you could go up shoot and 419 00:24:23,559 --> 00:24:27,039 there was no one saying, Okay, this is when you're 420 00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:30,000 going to put targets down range, or this is when 421 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,480 the shooting's going to stop. I don't even remember there 422 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:38,119 being proper shooting stalls. Really, there were shooting benches, but 423 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,079 there was no necessary strict divider between where people were shooting, 424 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,440 and I just witnessed some very poor gun safety practices 425 00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:49,640 while I was there. Not what the group I was 426 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,839 attending with they were all very professional season shooters and 427 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:56,079 had a sense of decorum, but there were people around 428 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,440 us who were joking around, and it made me feel 429 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,119 very un comfortable, to the point that I remember just 430 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,160 standing a few yards back from where all the shooting 431 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:09,279 was occurring, being like, I got a bad feeling in 432 00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,440 my stomach about this place. Now, I have heard that 433 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,039 this was ten years ago. I have heard conditions there 434 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:19,480 have improved a great amount, but at the time it 435 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:21,200 was like the wild West. 436 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: Essentially, sound like a nightmare your instinct, let me just 437 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:28,759 back out of here. Yeah, that's one hundred percent what 438 00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:31,880 I would do for sure. Wow, it was definite place. 439 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 5: Have a name, by the way, I always knew it 440 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,200 as the Blacksburg Shooting Range in the Jefferson National Forest. 441 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:41,960 It's the only one I know of that's nearby. And again, 442 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,559 I'm not denouncing the use of public ranges by any means. 443 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:47,759 I think they're a great resource to the public. I've 444 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,759 seen some very well run ones up in northern Virginia. 445 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,519 This one at that time, though, it was a bit 446 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,920 chaotic for my taste. Another thing I'll mention that I 447 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,119 recall pretty vividly was there was just junk everywhere down range. 448 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,200 And we're not talking about your standard targets. We're talking 449 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,519 people had put computers, TVs like anything you could really 450 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:16,880 shoot at down range. I was concerned about a ricochet 451 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,039 effect occurring, essentially, and so that was another thing that 452 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,319 made me uncomfortable, and just I recalled vividly was this 453 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,720 place was trash when we got there. That was my 454 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,240 first experience there. We went back a later time. Another 455 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,240 thing I'll note is it's isolated. It's down a gravel 456 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,680 road and there was no cell service there either. So 457 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:39,119 that's something I remember, and that there's a whole story 458 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,039 behind how we discovered that we had a little bit 459 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:45,759 of an emergency situation occurred the second time, and we're like, oh, 460 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,599 this is the one time we really need cell service. 461 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,519 Speaker 2: No, yeah, is there anybody in charge there. I've been 462 00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:56,079 to a shooting range a couple of times, but they 463 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,880 were always well run. There was a person in charge 464 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,160 who was usually expert at firearms, and they'd be in 465 00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:08,279 for safety rules. You'd sent me a couple of pictures 466 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:11,319 and one of the pictures had a guy all the 467 00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:15,200 way down range, and you said that people went into 468 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:18,559 the downrange area, which is a place where you could 469 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:21,799 actually be hit with very little regard to what was 470 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:25,519 going on around them, and this would never happen. A 471 00:27:25,559 --> 00:27:27,839 couple of times I've been to a shooting range, it's 472 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,359 always been quite strict. There's a signal or a whistle, 473 00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:37,599 or there's a stopping line of demarcation that says there 474 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,799 will be shooting at this point and there won't be 475 00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:42,839 shooting at some other point while people place targets or 476 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:45,680 whatever they're shooting at. Is there any of that at 477 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:46,240 this place? 478 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,279 Speaker 5: Again, I can only speak to my experience ten years ago, 479 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,119 and at that time, no, there was not. It was 480 00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:57,400 like you were referencing very different from any public shooting 481 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,599 range or private one for that matter, I had ever attended. 482 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,920 When it came to put time to put targets down 483 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,799 the range, what I recall was it again was patron regulated, 484 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,920 where there just seemed to be a natural stop in 485 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,119 folks shooting. People then decided, okay, it's time to go 486 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,240 down range to put items down range, which again I 487 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:20,559 could just hear my dad's voice in my head. He 488 00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:24,279 was very strict with us and gun safety, and he 489 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:27,079 would have been mortified and it said chills up my 490 00:28:27,319 --> 00:28:31,160 spine for sure. But yeah, there was no regulation that 491 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,400 I saw at that point in time, certainly not an 492 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:35,599 arranged safety officer present. 493 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,039 Speaker 3: So is this heavily patronized by college students or more 494 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,240 so by older adults? Like what would you say? Was 495 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:46,680 sort of the makeup of the people who were there. 496 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,799 Speaker 5: So I think it's a mix. I think you do 497 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,839 have some college students, especially ones who were gun owners, 498 00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:58,240 that might be recreational shooters or tied to the core 499 00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:02,759 of cadets, and they're practicing targets because that's in line 500 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,039 with the career path they're intending to pursue. There also 501 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,119 was quite a bit of the local population there from 502 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,359 surrounding southwest Virginia, and I saw a decent amount of 503 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,079 responsible gun owners there that you could tell we're seasoned 504 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:19,680 and experience and had the proper etiquette. But there are 505 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,440 also some guys who were joking around where, like I said, 506 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,400 did not make me feel comfortable. And I've heard over 507 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,960 the years just some pretty sketchy characters that show up there. 508 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,400 I had one friend who I was talking about the 509 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:36,319 range with before we had our podcast today, and he 510 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,359 had a particularly interesting story where he remembered a very 511 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,720 weird acting guy in a hoodie with a fully automatic 512 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,839 M four shooting down range and he's like, how the 513 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,359 heck did this guy get access to this weapon? And 514 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,920 he said it spooked him out. And he's a decorated 515 00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:58,039 marine officer now, not a guy who's easily intimidated, and 516 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,759 he found it to be a con experience. So you 517 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440 had folks like that there. Again, I only went there 518 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,680 two times, but these places garner a reputation. This one 519 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,200 definitely was on the sketchy side based on my calculation 520 00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:16,359 of things at the time. 521 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: I want to be clear on something here. Our sources 522 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,400 inside the Child's Metzler investigation have told us that there 523 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,000 is a long standing suspicion amongst the investigators, and Kristin 524 00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:32,000 and I did a recap on the Child's Metzler case 525 00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:34,799 a couple of weeks ago, which we refer people back 526 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:37,319 to if they haven't listened to it. There is a 527 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,319 strong potential link that the investigators believe may exist between 528 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,559 the murder of Heidi Childs and David Metzler and this 529 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:53,079 shooting range. Your viewpoint from ten years ago actually gives 530 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,200 us a better idea of what might have been going 531 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,319 on there fifteen years ago. Quite frankly, we're not as 532 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,599 concerned with what is going on at this public shooting 533 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,559 range now. We actually were hoping to get your view 534 00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:11,960 on what was happening back then. So things may have 535 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:17,720 improved with investigators looking at this shooting range as potentially 536 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:22,680 a place where the killer or killers came from before 537 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:28,039 they happened upon Childhon Metzler at Caldwell Fields. Can you 538 00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:30,960 give us a sense of what the distances between the 539 00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:36,359 shooting range and Caldwell Fields approximately? People would be driving 540 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:39,119 so they come back up the gravel road. How long 541 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,839 do you think it would take to drive from the 542 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,519 public shooting range to Caldwell Fields where Heidichilds and David 543 00:31:46,559 --> 00:31:47,480 Messler were killed. 544 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 5: You're talking about essentially a ten to fifteen minute drive, 545 00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:57,680 depending on how fast you're driving. It is a pretty 546 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,079 isolated rural road. You knew that road. Especially at night, 547 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,519 you might be going a bit slower. It's around eight 548 00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:09,359 to nine miles away if I'm correct, and it's about 549 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:12,720 a Caldwell Fields is about a twenty four to thirty 550 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,720 minute drive from Blacksburg. Downtown. Blacksburg specifically there is a 551 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,880 bit of a connection between Caldwell Fields and the university. 552 00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:25,960 Addison Caldwell was the first student in cadet at Virginia 553 00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:29,920 Tech who attended the university in eighteen seventy two. The 554 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,799 Core of Cadets at Virginia Tech, which is the military 555 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:37,000 body of the institution. It's a very well known part 556 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,200 of Virginia Tech culture. They do something, to my understanding, 557 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,480 called the Caldwell March every year, which is to mimic 558 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:48,640 the march this kid did from this part of rural 559 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,680 Virginia to Virginia Tech's campus to commemorate the founding of 560 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,359 the Core of Cadets, essentially in the university. That's the 561 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,000 only time I had heard about Caldwell Fields in particular, 562 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,359 outside of researching this case years later. I was very 563 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,599 familiar with the area while I was at school. I 564 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,519 had the good fortune of having a jeep rangler in college, 565 00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:12,799 so I did a lot of joy riding and off 566 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,920 roading on the back roads of Blacksburg. Right down the 567 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:20,400 road from there, i'd say about twenty thirty minutes further 568 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,839 down for sixty there's a big off roading area that's 569 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,319 in I think it's the Jefferson National Forest. Still it's 570 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,599 right near Mountain Lake Lodge where they filmed Dirty Dancing 571 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,079 that movie. Oh yeah, just a little side note. The 572 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,519 lake's gone now, unfortunately it naturally drains every one hundred 573 00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:41,640 and fifty years, but the lodge is still there, and 574 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,240 I would go off roading near there, and I think 575 00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:47,400 one time in particular, somehow I took a trail and 576 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,839 it spit me out on Craig Creek Road, and that 577 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,920 was the first time I had ever seen Caldwell Fields myself, 578 00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:58,279 aside from hearing about it through the Caldwell March and 579 00:33:58,319 --> 00:33:59,680 then these cases later on. 580 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:04,799 Speaker 3: There has been this longstanding understanding that one of the 581 00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:09,159 biggest problems in southwest Virginia is opiate use, and that 582 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,639 is a problem that really has just seemed to grow 583 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:14,119 and grow. I don't see us being able to get 584 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:17,440 that under control anytime soon. You'd mentioned in some of 585 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,519 your communications with us that speculated that maybe there was 586 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:26,599 a drug tie into the cald Well Field's child's Metzler murders. 587 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,159 Do you want to discuss that a little bit or speculate. 588 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,079 Speaker 5: Yeah. The reason I mentioned that in our direct messages, again, 589 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,559 I'm not law enforcement I'm not an expert on this 590 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,599 case by any means, being exposed to that surrounding area 591 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,079 in Southwest Virginia, Like I said, beautiful area, great people 592 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,639 over all, just down to earth, give the shirt off 593 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,519 their back type people. But you can notice, especially as 594 00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:56,920 you get further into West Virginia and some of these 595 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,599 more remote parts, the devastation that has been by the 596 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:05,320 opioid crisis. And it's really well depicted for those who 597 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,320 who like these type of series. If you've seen Dope 598 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,480 Sick or Painkiller, two very popular series I believe on 599 00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:17,119 Hulu and Netflix, right, they do a great job depicting 600 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:20,719 how this crisis has affected that area. A lot of 601 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,679 the crimes that you read about that occur in this 602 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,480 region of the country do have some link to the 603 00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,920 drug trade going on, in particular the opiate trade, or 604 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,039 that might be a motivator for robbery of some regard. 605 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,159 And I know in the Metzler case there was a 606 00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:44,199 wallet stolen, I believe, or there is some indication robbery 607 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,639 may have been a either primary or secondary motive. They 608 00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:48,079 don't know. 609 00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:50,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, Heidi's purse was taken. 610 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 5: That would tie into maybe a broader theory that there 611 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,199 could be that underlying factor as a driver here. 612 00:35:57,559 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 3: Sounds reasonable enough. 613 00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 2: One other things that it's been mentioned too regarding the 614 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,360 shooting range Robert, is the use of alcohol and drugs 615 00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:11,039 at the shooting range, which obviously you don't want to 616 00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,440 be drunk or high while you're shooting. 617 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 5: No, that is not ideal etiquette. 618 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: You mentioned that you saw people drinking, So what goes 619 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,360 on there? Is this a place where people are using 620 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,119 drugs and alcohol and then out there in the woods 621 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:27,920 blasting away. 622 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 5: I have a memory of one of the times I 623 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,599 went there, and it was either that there was a 624 00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:36,800 lot of beer cans on the ground near a particular truck, 625 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:39,239 or it was these guys in the bed of a 626 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,480 truck drinking, the details of which I can't recall, but 627 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:45,800 I do remember there being the presence of alcohol there, 628 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:49,400 not what the group I was with, of course, so 629 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,679 it would not surprise me. Again, there's no oversight of 630 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,920 this place if there was that type of activity occurring. 631 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,800 I know that people would go out on various occasions 632 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,519 and maybe party or go camping. In the surrounding Jefferson 633 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,519 National Forest. It was definitely a big area for fraternity 634 00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:13,679 rituals and initiation, ceremonies and stuff like that. So there 635 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,440 might be a culture of that tied to that place. 636 00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:20,480 I can only speak to again my memories of it, 637 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:24,159 and I do remember beer cans being on the ground 638 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,119 and there being evidence of alcohol consumption. Now, I don't 639 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,320 know if that was stuff that was used as a 640 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,800 target or whatnot, but that is my recollection of that 641 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,840 particular factor. 642 00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,039 Speaker 2: One thing I'd say about beer cans is they might 643 00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:43,960 be empty. Now, they weren't always empty. They started out full. 644 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:45,679 Speaker 5: Very fair point. 645 00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 2: I don't think people would be moving let's say dozens 646 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,719 or maybe even hundreds of beer cans empty. I think 647 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,559 it's a fair assumption that if there are tons of 648 00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:59,599 beer cans in location, there's a fair amount of beer 649 00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:00,920 being consumed there. 650 00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the blue bud light cans I just remember. 651 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,400 I mean, it's weird what your brain picks up on. 652 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,320 That's my distinct memory. And being by a white truck. 653 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,199 Speaker 2: I wonder if that's a regional favorite. 654 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 3: And Hazard Bush is based right here in Williamsburg, so 655 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,400 it does head out that way. 656 00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: That is true. 657 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 3: It's been fifteen years since the child's Metzler case, and 658 00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:28,800 we don't want to sit here on Monday morning quarterback 659 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,280 and make it sound like we know better than the investigators, 660 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,599 because obviously we are not investigators any of us. But 661 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:39,559 give us some speculation, just based on someone who's familiar 662 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:42,880 with the case. Why do you think that the Child's 663 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,639 Metzler case has stalled? And what would you like to 664 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:48,679 see happen going forward to rev it up again? 665 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 5: Of course, I want to see justice for these two 666 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,480 young people who are tied to this wonderful community, and 667 00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:01,400 I think their families deserve answers after this many years. 668 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:06,119 And to my understanding, there's a team that's actively hard 669 00:39:06,119 --> 00:39:08,840 at work on this case. And again, I have nothing 670 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,400 but positive things to say about my interactions with Montgomery 671 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,280 County Police, Blacksburg Police, Virginia Tech Campus police during my 672 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,159 time there, but I don't believe they are the ones 673 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:25,480 leading the investigation anymore. I had heard, I believe through 674 00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:28,519 this podcast and then through my own research, that there 675 00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:32,440 has been DNA evidence collected from the scene. And I 676 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,760 had also heard stories about canvassing going on in the area, 677 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,559 of people voluntarily submitting their DNA that went on in 678 00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:43,800 some of these backwoods hollers near that area. On Craig 679 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,840 Creek Road. My hope is that they revisit that with 680 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,599 all of the great technology that's available to us today, 681 00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:58,079 especially when you get into forensic genealogy through some of 682 00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:02,719 these public databases and sites. I think that would be 683 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,800 hopefully in Avenue. As a Virginia tax payer and someone 684 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,199 tied to this community, I would like to see happen 685 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,679 and for these families to get answers after this many years. 686 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,519 Speaker 3: Well said agreed, Robert. You were saying Affair that you 687 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,440 found our podcast through like backways through Amazon, that you'd 688 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,280 been reading a Ron Peterson book and it led you 689 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,159 to Blaine Party, which led you to us. Yes, were 690 00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,119 you familiar with the Colonial Parkway murders case before you 691 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,920 saw Blaine's book? Was that something that had filtered out 692 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,599 to Tech or up to Fairfax. 693 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,519 Speaker 5: I was not, and I did have an experience on 694 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,440 the park Way that years later. It's anti climactic, But 695 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,480 when I found out about these cases, I called my 696 00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:49,360 friend who brought me out there. I'm like, I can't 697 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,320 believe we went out there at night. So one of 698 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,239 my best friends transferred from Virginia Tech and he was 699 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,559 a football player. He played at William and Mary, so 700 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:02,159 I spent a lot of time Williamsburg during college watching 701 00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:06,119 his games, and one summer he was moving between apartments. 702 00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:08,719 I had helped him move and we moved him into 703 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:14,039 his new apartment and they hadn't paid the utility bills yet, 704 00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:17,320 so the power was off, the ac was off. Kristin 705 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,480 howe hot and humid. It gets in the tidewater region 706 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,440 of Virginia in the summer, so we were like, what 707 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,280 do we do? And we just went out joy riding. 708 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,440 He had a Camaro and I'll show you this cool spot. 709 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:33,360 So we go out on what I found out to 710 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,960 be the Colonial Parkway. At the time, it's pitch black. 711 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,920 I don't think we had self service. And he pulled 712 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,159 over to College Creek and he's this where a lot 713 00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:47,239 of people come and parties. Apparently people go swimming there, 714 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,559 but there's been drownings and stuff. I just had this 715 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:53,159 feeling of dread the whole time I was there. I'm like, 716 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,719 get the heck out of here. What are we doing 717 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,880 out here? And then years later I read this book 718 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,719 and I'm like, oh my gosh. And I had no 719 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,079 knowledge of these cases, but I did have that impression 720 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:08,760 of the parkway years back where I was like, this 721 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,320 is a sketchy area, and I called them up. I'm like, 722 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,159 I can't believe you had us out there. And I 723 00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:16,760 remember saying when we went out there, I'm like, this 724 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,400 is somewhere like a serial killer would roam around. He 725 00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:23,880 was like, calm down, we're two big guys, and he 726 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,199 wasn't easily intimidated. But I remember that spooky experience there, 727 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:31,920 and that years on, when I read about the cases, 728 00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:34,119 was really the first time I had heard about them. 729 00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:38,719 And then my mother attended Radford right after Gina Renet 730 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,800 Hall's case, and so when I read that book, she 731 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,360 had an interesting perspective right away on that. 732 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 2: I said, do you. 733 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,199 Speaker 5: Remember anything about Gina Rene Hall and she said, yeah, 734 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,039 she's buried under the I forget the name of the 735 00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:55,400 whatever center that was the urban legend at the time. Okay, yeah, 736 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,400 the cases exist in the institutional memory of these and 737 00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,800 go on through generations. A lot of times. The details, 738 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,880 of course, get lost over time. It's only upon researching 739 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,920 them or reading about them that you're able to gain 740 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,880 insight into the human element of it. So that was 741 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,679 my experience with the Colonial Parkway murders prior to reading 742 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,039 Blaine's book. 743 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 3: Boy, if he took you out to College Creek, he 744 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,239 took you out to where all of it. When he 745 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,000 says there are drownings there, that he's not kidding. It 746 00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:28,000 happens at least once or twice a year because the 747 00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:30,840 rip current is so bad out there. You guys didn't 748 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:31,920 go swimming, did you, No. 749 00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:32,559 Speaker 2: We did not. 750 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,599 Speaker 5: There was no way in heck I was getting in 751 00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:37,719 that water. I love to get out of there as 752 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,920 soon as possible, much like the shooting range. That was 753 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,119 my first exposure to the case was reading Blaine's book, 754 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,400 and then I did a little research on the cases afterwards. 755 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,920 And it was right around the time you were starting 756 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,199 the podcast, and I've been pooked ever since. 757 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,119 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. That is 758 00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,000 going to do it for this episode of Mine over Murder. Robert, 759 00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:01,920 thank you so much for joining us today and giving 760 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,960 us your perspective on all of these cases. 761 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 5: Thank you, guys, it's been an honor and a pleasure 762 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:07,239 to come on. 763 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 3: We'll look forward to having you on again for now. 764 00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:12,639 That is going to do it for this episode of 765 00:44:12,679 --> 00:44:15,760 Mind over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 766 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:16,559 see you next Time. 767 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 768 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:30,920 Another Dog Productions. 769 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 770 00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:37,559 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 771 00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 772 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 773 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 774 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 775 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:53,400 Murders on Facebook. 776 00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:56,119 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 777 00:44:56,159 --> 00:44:57,800 Bill Thomas. Five six. 778 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,599 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to my mind Over Murder.