Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.
Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.
Speaker 3: Hannah Espinoza marriage and family therapists.
Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists,
who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed
mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes
and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and
all forms.
Speaker 4: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
we aren't your therapist.
Speaker 5: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
a local mental health provider.
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, So today we are doing our first official
Tim Burton directed film, Believe It or Not, eight season
in and this is our first actual That seems crazy,
but I guess it's true. And so today we will
be talking about Big Fish, and we will primarily be
talking about the parent child relationship as seen in this
movie through the characters of Edward and William. Now, this
story's pretty simple plot wise in that it's about the
father Edward and his adult son William as Edward is
at the end of his life from cancer, and he
and his son William have been a strange for several
years following a big blowout at William's wedding. Because Edward
is a bit of a tall tailor, he tells a
lot of tall tales and it has become a point.
Speaker 6: Of contention between him and William.
Speaker 1: So the movie you are seeing sort of the flashbacks
the scenes of Edward as he tells his life in
these very fantastical, big tim burtonesque ways, and William trying to,
I think, make peace with who his dad is. And then,
as always, we'll talk about treatment and final thoughts. So
we figured we would start with kind of talking about
Edward as he is the big fish of which this
movie speaks. So what are your guys' impressions as therapists
of Edward.
Speaker 4: I think Edward tells these stories so that he can
be validated through the way he sees himself. He's trying
to find a way to be meaningful, and I think
the way he grew up. I think we see a
little glimpse of a scene that tells us what might
actually have happened to him that created this need to
be bigger. He talks about being in a bed for
three years, that he started growing too fast for his body,
that one day he was sitting in church and he
just started growing. What did he call it, gigantification?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he calls it that where he has
no choice but to be bedridden.
Speaker 2: Which clearly is not what happened.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, he's making it sound like he was growing
up overnight.
Speaker 2: Which may have happened.
Speaker 4: I suspect he did have to grow up overnight, but
he would have gone up in the age of polio
or scarlet fever or all kinds of diseases that would
have mandated that. And I my read on and it
sounded like maybe Hannahs too is it is probably polio.
Speaker 5: I think that that's the one that makes the most
sense in terms of what the age that his father
is and what we know about how they took care
of people with polio.
Speaker 2: Right iron lungs. Yeah, at that point in time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think anything else would have made sense
for why he would have been hooked up to machines
and having things need to move him, if anything was
moving him at all. But the contraption he's demonstrating in
his story or his flashback doesn't make sense, don't think
it's real. But what does make sense is that if
he had something that made him sick, and he was
in fact had stuck in a bed reading encyclopedias where
he's studying everything, that wanting to be bigger is understandable
as the only thing you.
Speaker 2: Have is your imagination.
Speaker 4: So I suspect for him that desire to grow and
see that whole world as opposed to some small Alabama
town and be a folk hero a figure instead of
the sick kid started this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he definitely has. Well.
Speaker 1: What is a common threat of all his stories is
what you're saying is that he is the hero. He's
always coming in and saving the day in some capacity,
and always helping people that need help and and being
like the shiny which we're all like the hero on
our own story, but he's like the hero in these
very big, splashy ways and every story he tells, which
can say a lot about, you know, if you're feeling
constrained at a young age. And I think if nothing else,
he definitely talks about how he felt like his world
was too small for him, the world of his small
town things like that, Like as soon as he turned eighteen,
if we believe his story about finding a giant kind
of connecting to that idea of giantism.
Speaker 4: Which she did. Yeah, he just wasn't as giant, yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and needing to get out and get into this
big world. And I do kind of wonder And this
is a bit of a tangent, but I think it
comes in is he's eighteen when he first finds the
town of Specter, Right, He's like wandering through and it's
almost like an oasis of.
Speaker 6: A town that he finds.
Speaker 3: Do you think Specter?
Speaker 1: I was really like ratling my brain and talking to
a Hanna about when we're watching it on Sunday. Is
Specter like the afterlife? Is Specter the metaphor for something?
Is it a real place? And I'm getting in my
head about it because later it does seem like a
real place. But there are things that happen, especially the
first time he becomes to Spector when he's eighteen, where
first I was like, oh, did he try to kill
himself when he was eighteen? Is he just depressed? And
like Spector is sort of this like metaphor for when
he's stuck in these depressive episodes where he doesn't want
to be there anymore. I don't know, it seemed kind
of like an afterlifey vibe.
Speaker 4: You're remembering that the woman the little girl, yeah, was real.
Speaker 6: Yeah, which is where it kind of flies in the
face of that. But it's so.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting the way that they talk about Specter
when he's eighteen and goes there and this very like
we weren't expecting you yet, and it had this feel
of like is this his way of talking about being
in like a dark time of his life and making
it seem like something else.
Speaker 4: I also shared that vibe, Yeah, and I think it
was on purpose. I think it was a director misdirect
that we're seeing this story with through how William hears
it without understanding that it's very much true that however,
he came across this town and for whatever reason that
it's real and the people in it were.
Speaker 6: Something about it Israel. Yeah version of it is real.
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean the Little Girl says that he
and the circus came back and rescued the town from bankruptcy.
Speaker 6: And like bought all the land pretty much, So.
Speaker 2: It's real that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's the first one we see that validates that
what he's saying is more or less true, but perhaps a.
Speaker 2: Little less fantastical.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, did he own an entire landscaping crew
full law of twenty people? Seems doubtful with one truck.
There's little clues in each of these scenes of where
the fantasticalness is. He's got one truck, just one sitting
in that scene with all the mowing on right before
he leaves to Fine Inspector Mighty had some of those
kids working with him, probably, But did he have an
empire of lawnmowers making them all rich?
Speaker 2: It seems doubtful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially at that age, right.
Speaker 1: And I don't remember the exact details of that exact
part of the movie, but I remember thinking, wow, Wow,
we couldn't. We had to accomplish so much at that age.
We couldn't just accomplish a little. I had to be
a lot, which I think, to me is like the
central aspect of Edward that I find. I don't know
if I want to say the most difficult about his character,
maybe something we'll just keep talking about as we talk
about Edward, But how his stories, like I said, like,
can't just be like a little more bombastic than they were,
Like the truth of it. It's like how big they
have to be, like so big that it discounts the
story actually, at least with his son, as we'll.
Speaker 6: Talk about later, and seemingly with you. Oh yeah, hm,
I don't like him.
Speaker 1: I I'm going to try to be obviously as neutral
as I can. Well, we're talking about it, but I
think I guess something to add up top of this
episode is I don't know if it's because I am
a child therapist, but I think I kept seeing it
so much from the child's perspective, like William's perspective, that
it did make it hard for me to like Edward.
Speaker 4: I think it's vital that in understanding Edward we recognize
there's always a reason to his stories. There's always a
seeking for validation, and people throughout their lifespan will seek
to correct the invalidation's life has done to them compulsively,
and they may do it forever because during their developmental years,
the attachment to ourself and our own story becomes really important.
And for him, if we're going with this theory that
he was a sickly kid, which seems likely, all of
those things he would have wanted to be, he couldn't.
And during those years where he'd be developing and learning
and growing, he's sitting in a bed reading stories about
other people doing it. Those stories will always be fantastical.
At the age he's at, the American Tall Tales would
have been real popular, Pey Coast, Bill, Paul Bunyan, John Henry,
all of those types of stories would have been huge.
And John Henry was real, the guy who beat the
steam shovel. You guys, don't You don't remember the American
Tall Tales, African American man.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know who Baul Bunyan is, and I
think that's about it. And Davy Crockett, Johnny Appleseed, if
those fall into the same.
Speaker 4: Realm, they do. Davy Crockett was also real. Yeah, and
he was a Tennessee mountain man. Was he the Disney
Show version seems doubtful, m hmm, But he did some
of it and he died at the Alamo.
Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying, though, Like Edward could
be of a time when this like bombastic storytelling was
very normal and beloved, perhaps and maybe even encourage. I mean,
I've come from a family of Irish Catholics and shit,
so I know when someone's spinning a yarn, as they
would say.
Speaker 4: Of course he's spinning a yarn. It's one of the
ways he learned to cope and to be relevant and
to assign valued to himself. And he couldn't actually do it,
So he's going to likely struggle with that throughout his life,
and I think he did. But he also found ways
to make himself the hero of the story.
Speaker 2: The Tall Tale.
Speaker 4: Much like these stories he would have read and probably
read over and over and over for years as he's
stuck in a bed with probably library books, and he
might not have been able to even read them to himself.
He might have had to have people read them to him.
His attachment to that style of storytelling would have likely
really encoded itself with ways to be relevant, And then
he went and did a great.
Speaker 2: Deal of them.
Speaker 4: You see all the people at the funeral, they're a
little less fantastical than they were represented, Like the conjoined
twins are just twins, but they're all there, they're all real.
Him telling his story and seeking actualization, I think is
a really powerful way to understand how he worked really
hard to overcome what he went through, and he really
wants to be seen for that and have his story
live beyond him, much like the stories of these people
he idolized. While he's stuck in.
Speaker 5: A bed, I feel like Edward, I feel like I
hear what you're saying, Ben about where what are the
truths of his stories? And as he gets older, why
isn't there a realization that his son wants to know
him and not of him, He wants to know him.
Speaker 3: And I feel like at the age that.
Speaker 5: He is, like he won't even budge on his deathbed,
he won't try to even really listen to what his
son is saying. So I get the making meaning out
of maybe his adverse experiences as a kid, Like that's reasonable.
I get the vibe about Specter in terms of it
being the way it was lit, the way that it
was so seemed so magical in the beginning, and the
first time we see Specter, how magical it looks initially.
But then also that could just be him being young
and putting that kind of spin on the city because
that's how he saw it. But I feel like, after
a certain amount of time, isn't there any isn't there
any urge or desire to want to meet your child
where they are, or is that something that he doesn't
have access to.
Speaker 1: It makes me wonder about my brain's kind of going
in two directions. One is is I do I can't
get on board with the idea that like Edward is
using these storytelling as a way to deal and reframe trauma,
because he definitely does that when he gets enlisted. You know,
like there's a lot of moments in the movie, like
when he's at the war, which I think is the
Korean War. Took us Me Andhanna a long time agre
out what war they were talking about before we realized
Korean War.
Speaker 4: Do you have the North Korean flag right there, babe?
Speaker 3: A gun to my head.
Speaker 1: If you try to tell me to say any flag
and it ain't America or something like that, shoot me down, Babe,
shoot me down anyway. But I do see these moments
when I do get on board with the idea that
he is doing all the storytelling to make sense of
his life, both like the traumatic pieces of it like
going to war, his childhood, and also I think, and
I don't know if, like I wouldn't use the word trauma,
but this split that he has where he wants to live,
this very adventurous life, and in some ways he did,
and simultaneously he chase after, he chased after Sandra and
with that a very simple, basic white picket fence literally life,
and how it's almost like he tore himself in two
with that, and he even says that too, like I
what did he say, I'm not one for I'm not
never much for being at home, and like Williams's later,
like he liked his second life better. And so I
also wonder if there's like an existentially thing happening for him,
or that's there happened for him over his life of
like I love Sandra and this is the life that
can bring a certain kind of happiness, and definitely for
that time period you're very much encouraged to have. And
then also the part of him that wants to be
maybe like a single free adventurer, and how you can't
really do both well. And I think the sacrifice of
that is his son, and not just as wilksborl later
the you know, not telling him the truth of himself,
but also that my biggest bugaboo with Edward is that
he keeps William so separate from this other part of
his life. Because the part of why William doesn't believe
these stories is not just because they're so bananas, it's
also because he doesn't know Dick about them firsthand, Like
his dad has this whole Edward, this whole part of
his life that William never meets, that William never sees,
and so he does not believe.
Speaker 3: Because if you're gonna.
Speaker 1: Tell these tall tales and then have nothing to back
it up in terms of the people that your dad knows,
why wouldn't his mind go to like then what are
you doing? Then?
Speaker 6: Why are you why?
Speaker 1: There's like a secrecy about it that I think that's
what really shoots Edward in the foot. And I don't
know if it's this identity existential stuff where he wants
to keep this version of his life separate from this
very like cookie cutter settled version of his life, because
I think that's the part that I find so curious
about Edward is this separation. And that's what I kind
of highlighted in my notes is you know, why did
Edward keep his two lives so separate? Like how powerful
it would have been for William even from like a
I want to raise my kid to have morals perspective,
to like bring William to Specter when he is helping
them renovate, introducing him to the people that live there,
showing his son like actively how to help people.
Speaker 6: And he doesn't do that at all. He lets his son.
Speaker 1: He leaves such a vacuum there that his son's like,
did he have a second family, Like William knows almost
nothing real, like tangible about his dad's life. He's just
expected to believe him and to believe these bonkers level stories.
And then also everybody else in Edward's life and their
life like uh, like Edward's wife, Williams mom are just
like just believe him. And I think that's what I
found so frustrating about Edward is It's one thing to
like paint a tail. It's another thing to like really
hold so much of yourself so far apart from your child,
and not for like a tr reason for that, like
with the Specter stuff, it's not even from like a
trauma perspective of like I'm going to this place where
bad things happen, or it's really difficult and I want
to save my kid from that.
Speaker 6: I really don't.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to understand his motivation for that,
other than I want this life to not involve my
wife and kid.
Speaker 2: I think it's.
Speaker 4: Something he tells us flat out throughout the whole movie
that he wants his life to be more, and having
the presence that he does, he probably can't resist that
spotlight to be special. Like when he's telling the stories
at the campfire, everything's big and his son's like, here
we go again.
Speaker 6: Yeah, even at like nine, his son.
Speaker 2: Is over it, which makes sense, And.
Speaker 5: I feel like the other part with William is that
I also feel like he a part of what I
think a part of William's experience also is is that
he believed those stories for a really, really long time,
and he probably experienced some shame or some embarrassment around
peers because he's like, no, like, my dad told me
the story, and the story is true. And I feel
like William probably had an experience where people were like, dude, like,
your dad tells tall tales, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: He very well may have.
Speaker 4: I think what we see demonstrated is that Dad captivates
people with stories. He's using the riz that he has
to tell his stories.
Speaker 6: He used it.
Speaker 1: Ran good job, Ben I'm so proud of you for
using riz biblically correct.
Speaker 4: He's clearly got constant existential crisis, having the life at
home and then also being a traveling salesman. I'm presuming
he's got some guilt that he's not home doing the thing,
and also guilt that he's not fulfilling the promise he
made to that bedridd himself that he would be bigger
and more present and influence more in the world, and
he clearly did and didn't, and it probably stopped when
his son was born, which is why the story of
his son being born has to be such a fantastical tale,
because that moment probably marks the formation of that split
you're talking about.
Speaker 2: That's probably true.
Speaker 4: That's probably a very difficult moment for him, and if
he didn't accept that change, which many people don't and can't,
he would have had to grieve something he never thought
would be grief.
Speaker 5: I feel like, I don't know if he's as captivating
as is. He takes up all the fucking energy out
of the room, and nobody else can say anything like.
I feel like the way like people are subjected to
his stories at this point, like a story. Everybody at
the wedding had heard already at least one hundred times.
Speaker 2: Well it could be true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, good.
Speaker 5: He just really in some ways feels like he's full
of himself in a way that keeps you distant from
other people because you're so much you think that you're
so different from other people. And I like what Brittany
said about them being so separated, like that was a
choice that he made. Why did that have to be
a part of the experience. If if William had had
the chance to really learn more about his dad's life,
this movie wouldn't have been made. It's also curious because
Tim Burton actually this movie came out in two thousand
and three, I think, and his dad had just had
passed away in like two thousand. So I also feel
like it makes me curious if Tim Burton had a
similar relationship with his dad.
Speaker 2: Oh he find say he did, he did, Okay, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Tim Burton said that him and his dad had both
gone to film school and didn't really see much in
each other, and there were a lot of things that
he never got to know or get answers on. So
you're dead on he definitely said those and you can
see it working its way out in art because it's
what he was trying to do. The idea of him
keeping people walled off is almost certainly part of it.
He's keeping people distant because I think the writer of
the book and Tim Burton both also said something similar
about having a dad that would keep people kind of
walled off and going back to that, you know, protecting
himself from trauma story. Think about who he would have
been to the town, a tiny little town like that
in the country, the kid that got so sick they're
in bed and probably got sick in church where everybody
saw it happen, and then is out of school, out
of everything, stuck in a bed that everyone knows you
for the wrong reason. How desperately he'd want to not
be known for that, so he tells these stories to
control the narrative around how he's seen. I'm not saying
it's right. I'm not saying that the consequences you guys
are naming aren't dead. Un just remembering there's a reason
for every behavior and it's not always narcissism.
Speaker 1: Well, I think I don't think it's narcissism with him.
I think two things can be true at once, right
and I think we're all I think we're all sort
of on the same page with that, in that we
can see how Edward these tales are coping mechanism and
exactly the exact one I'm thinking of is you brought
up earlier, so thanks for reminding me. Is his son's birth,
and how he may have this fantastical story and how
that is interesting, how that's like the ones story where
you get the actual alternative version from the doctor about
what really happened and how the doctor was What does
he say, but the first one's better, or like what
you prefer the first one, the more fantastical one about
the fish, And doesn't Williams say, like not really, I
would have liked the real one.
Speaker 4: And yeah, he calls his dad for not being there.
He's like dead, you were in Wichita, Kansas. Yeah, on
a business trip.
Speaker 1: And so this is what I mean by two things
can be true at once and it makes me sad
all like my sadness for it encompasses everyone involved, which
is that Edward doesn't know how to stop using this
coping mechanism and like, can't maybe examine why he's so
attached to this coping mechanism and why it's so important
to him that he holds onto these stories even though
his son is telling him, do you as clearly as
as clear as you can communicate to someone. These stories
do not make me feel close to you. They actually
make me feel very far from you. I just want
to know the more like boring truths of your life
because I want to know you. And it gets so
bad that he basically goes like like no contact if
you will, like well, like Midwest nice no contact, which
is like we're around each other, but we don't talk.
And it makes me sad that if Edward was in therapy,
like it would be so nice to be able to
like work through with him. Your son's asking this of you,
Why does it feel so Why what's getting in the
way of meeting that request and and working through that right?
Because I get why Edward does it, and it makes
me bummed out for him and for William that he
can't get outside of it. He can't get perspective on it,
like there's something obviously, there's a need met. Everything everyone
does is because they're gonna ge at need met, that
need met thing. He can't figure that out or get
out from under that to the point that it it
in some ways, Like I don't want to say ruins,
so I don't think it ruins, but it really steals
time away from his son.
Speaker 4: He steals a great deal of time from anything that
makes him feel vulnerable. He doesn't perceive or read the room,
the situation, anything, and anybody that doesn't already see him
and has heard his stories, He's going to take up
air making sure they hear the story he wants to hear.
And some of them are true and some of them
are a revisionist to cover up the moments of shame, guilt,
weakness that he carries with him, like probably not being
present for the birth of his son.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that is something where he probably feels horrible,
And I get why he creates like and that's what
I mean, Like he goes right to that coping mechanism
of making this bombastic thing about it, because what it
distracts from the truth, which is I miss my son's birth.
And also I think what is telling about that as
a coping mechanism is that why do we have to
carry shame about that moment? Like we can feel sad
that we miss that, But you're a traveling salesman, you know,
like there was probably always going to be a good
chance that you were going to miss your son's birth.
Speaker 6: And also, like the doctor says, dads.
Speaker 1: Weren't in the labor and delivery room at that time,
and also like dads were probably not expected to be
around that much to that extent, you know, like the
primary caregiving was done by the mom, just you know, standards.
And so I think also it makes me wonder how
much these stories encourage or perpetuate feelings of shame for Edward,
because by having the story, he is perpetuating this idea
that the truth should be kept in a box, or
the truth should be kept in a closet because that's
not good for some reason. Either it's too boring, it's
too shameful, it's too something. And then we see that
he does that's what he starts to do. Like Over
the Top is compartmentalized, he eventually compartmentalizes his whole life,
like he compartmentalizes into two different lives that don't have
to be separate. I mean, I think that's where I
continue to feel sad, is like he could have been
an adventurer and taken William along with him like it
bums me out. Also that he felt like these two
lives were so diametrically opposed and that there couldn't be
some combo, some bleeding of those two lives that would
have felt nice, because I think it also would have
pissed me the fuck was williamed to know that he
talked about people with me the specter. I'm like, I
could have met them, I could have been there, Like,
because kids just want to spend time with you, You know that, Ben,
your dad. Kids just want to spend time with you.
That's all they want.
Speaker 2: That's all they want.
Speaker 1: Well, why don't we take a break here and we
will be right back in the meantime. If you are
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we read all your reviews. All right, So, as we
kind of left off this idea of how Edward has
created these like totally separate lives where he's not involving
his kid or his wife in this part of his
life and how it is. Like I said, it does
make me feel sad that he'd and maybe this is
a product of the time, like I don't know, you
know what I mean, in the fifties of the sixties,
but like this fact that he felt like he only
could go down these two very distant roads from each other,
and that's how he kept it going, instead of instead
of finding a way to weave those lives together so
that he could be hopefully more satisfied and then also
he could be closer to his kid.
Speaker 4: It is said that that's how he felt he had
to be. I've seen that in people sometimes, and I
think we all probably have that because he has this
identity of being that sick kid. It seems likely that
And I don't think I saw anybody from his hometown
other than the cheerleaders maybe in that final scene, but
that he wasn't around anybody. It wasn't his hometown ever,
that he went back to once he left there.
Speaker 2: I don't think we saw him come back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he never seems to have a home community, like
even with no no he oh, even.
Speaker 3: With his wife and kid.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a throwaway part of the movie where
he's like, I got this job, I got her a nice,
big house, and then I said goodbye and I went.
Speaker 6: On the road.
Speaker 1: It's almost like that house and his wife and his
kid felt like more of the afterthought to his story,
and he didn't really seem to build Like he did
build a lot of community, which is awesome. Unfortunately he
built all this community away from where he lived and
away from his family, and that sucks. I mean, that
just is sad. It is.
Speaker 5: It makes me really curious about what Edward's parent was
like and what and we don't get any of that.
We don't get any information about what Edwards experience was
as a like his relationship with his dad.
Speaker 2: No, just his birth story briefly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: So I also feel like I wonder if a lot
of his behavior stems from that, so from having a
father he couldn't be close to and didn't know how
to be close to, and.
Speaker 3: So he.
Speaker 5: So he decided that was the only kind of relationship
that his son could have with him. Maybe that's the
only relationship that Edward felt like he could have with William. Yeah,
I think, I mean, yeah for sure. And also too,
depending on what his dad was like, did he think
he was giving William something by creating this persona of
my dad's, like this big hero that goes away and
does crazy, adventurous things and then comes back and tells
me about it and tells everybody about it, as if
Edward's like bringing books that he used to read. It's
almost like Edward's bringing those books to his kid.
Speaker 1: But I'm the main character. It's not exciting that your
dad's main character of these stories. Does he even think
about how important he is to William in terms of
like d today touchstone person, Like he has his mom,
and his mom's great, and she takes care of him,
and I got him a nice house, and like I'm
providing for them. So maybe he never really understood how
important actually being there for your kid is, Like being
there and being boring is better than being away and
being exciting.
Speaker 4: It definitely seems like there's a missing spot in Edward's life.
We really don't get to see what it is. If
I'm looking at the timeline, he is twenty one when
he goes to war.
Speaker 6: I think so.
Speaker 1: I know he was eighteen when the Specter thing happened
the first time.
Speaker 4: And then he was with the Circus for three years.
Oh yeah, and it's after that somebody finally learns his address,
which means he didn't go home to the Yeah, it.
Speaker 1: Seems like he never goes home once he's eighteen, which
is also telling.
Speaker 4: Which means that in what the Korean War is what
nineteen fifty one something like that, So that makes him
twenty one, and fifty one means he's born in nineteen thirty,
which means his dad very likely would have been World
War One and would have been a dad that lived
through the Depression and therefore would have been likely gone
because the Depression hit the South really really hard, and
dad may have been somebody who was out making it
for the family and gone all the time. We don't
know which exact version of it, but we can probably
presume his relationship with his dad wasn't close and he
found his meaning elsewhere in the world, kind of stuck
in that childhood mentality he formed it ten.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, and now that we're talking about it, it
does feel very telling that none of his stories include
his dad in any capacity, even in like a very
like fantastical way.
Speaker 5: I mean, none of his stories include his family at all. Yeah,
Edward is very much a singular character in most of
the stories that he tells.
Speaker 4: Correct, he's very much telling his own narrative. I think
he's stuck in his trauma stories. And then as we
move through all of these different phases of his life,
they are centered on him, and some of them tell
that kind of connection to his past in a positive light,
but embellish and others seem like they're a.
Speaker 2: Retcon of a narrative therapy.
Speaker 4: He's trying to tell everyone else so that he can
project the image he wants to cover up the weaknesses
and failures that he's had.
Speaker 5: Do you think that there's a chance that Edward almost
has like arrested development. I'm certain in terms of that
whatever the illness was that he had. So he also
has this very childlike view of relationships.
Speaker 4: I mean, think about how childlike it is to look
at someone and go, she's beautiful, and I can give
her everything she ever wanted. To the point that poor
Roy from the office gets to play second fiddle Againdon againdon.
I think it's telling that we don't learn until later
in this story that that dude that Roy was playing
is three years older than him. When we see him
competing in every story that guy loses to Edward. He's
worse than him in baseball, he's worse than in basketball.
His science fair stuff is just a little bit worse.
And then he's the one who was engaged.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost if that guy is just a stand
in for every guy Edward felt contentions with, or if.
Speaker 4: That guy was the guy he is contentious because he
was part of the witch story. He was one of
the ones who was putting him up to it and
shining him on. And then he's the one that dies
on the toilet, which turned out to be because he
was beating up Edward, which all seems a little tall, well.
Speaker 1: Very convenient, the very like tidy story, if you will.
And yeah, I mean thinking of him too is like immature,
like arrest of development also kind of makes the Sandra
stuff make a little bit more sense to makes, I think. Also,
what's interesting about Edward's story is that he wants so
much to live this like lone wolf kind of adventurous life,
and simultaneously he like doggedly goes after her, like he
fights for this basic ass life too. And if I
got to work with him, as you know, as a client,
I would be really curious about examining that point of conflict,
you know, where he because it wasn't like Sander pursued him,
or they fell in love really quickly and she got
pregnant and he had to be with her, you know
what I mean? Like, I do believe the little truth
within his story is that he fell in love with
her and really went after her ass in some capacity. Right,
he fought for her and had to like break her
up from someone else to get her, and so he
made a lot of you'd think conscious choices. But if
we're thinking of him more as someone who's like maybe
stuck in a more immature mindset, was he thinking was
he not thinking far enough in the future. Was he
just thinking, like I love her so much, I want
her and not really thinking about what that means in
terms of the life he's been planning for in his mind.
Speaker 2: I think yes.
Speaker 4: I think Jehannah's point and to what you're tying to
is that fantastical version of what love is that he's
attached to. You can assume that in his stories that
he was reading, Robin Hood rescued Maid.
Speaker 6: Marian right like he found his damsel, correct.
Speaker 4: And whether or not it was his damsel in distress
or just the beautiful princess that was destined for him
because he's the hero of the story all the time.
So all the stories where the hero did that, he's
now replicating in an arreested development kind of way, where
I have to be the one who does these things
because it's my story and she's the most beautiful one
I've ever saw, and he attaches to the idea of
her more than the practical side of it, and it becomes,
you know, the manic pixie dream girl thing we talked
about so thoroughly in the Five Hundred Days of Summer episode,
combined with the same thing that we really hit on
with our dear friend bats in the Mask of the Phantasm,
where not the karate in the garage, the.
Speaker 3: Proposal scene, it's disgusting.
Speaker 4: But more in why is this man torturing himself with
a childlike idea of what his parents would have wanted,
which is really just a projection of his own egocentric
problem solving that he is stuck in arrested development and
never quite escapes because that's how he found actualization. He
desperately wants to escape the narrative that exists of him
as that sick kid with the dad who didn't care,
I assume or wasn't able to for whatever.
Speaker 2: Dad wasn't present and whatever.
Speaker 4: His relationship with mom didn't validate his story, and neither
did anyone in the town because they always saw him
as the sick kid. So therefore his story in that
town can't ever validate him. So specter that was waiting
for him and maybe heard from it heard of him
as that sickly kid that got so sick and wasn't
that far away that maybe they didn't hear from him
or the poet told them, but somebody had their story,
and he arrived as already a legend version of himself
that this kid is trying so hard, but everyone's like, yeah,
but you're still like that sick kid though, bro, So
he can't be there and be the tall tale version
of himself he created in his head through dissociation to
escape being sick in a bed because there was nowhere
else to go but deeper into his imagination where he
could find any escape from miserable existence. So we see
that then become arrested development and play out through his
life as his most tried and true method of problem
solving that he so desperately wants to not be seen
as that sickly kid, that he doesn't let anybody know
the real him because the real hymn can never match
his stories. But as long as he controls that narrative,
they'll ever see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just develops into this level of avoidance I mean,
and I think this shows up in real world ways
where people get so stuck in like a defense mechanism
that came from we We talk about this all the time, right,
like people get stuck in coping mechanisms that help them
survive at one point in their life. But if they
can't let go of it, or if it becomes a
part of their identity as they see themselves, which I
think is what happens with Edward, they can't get out
of it. They can't stop doing it. Once it's outlasted,
it's use. And I think, like I said, with Edward,
it did out in my opinion, did all lost his
use because it got to a point where, like I said,
he didn't have to keep this life separatistart to really
get in the way. Like as we talk about when
we are meeting clients and assessing them, is some part
of what's going on fucking with your functioning, And for
him it's his relationship to his kid. And it is
kind of like miraculous that Sandra is so happy with
him still and seems to be in love with him still,
Like he got really lucky in finding a woman that
seems to really eat his shit up given everything.
Speaker 4: He got very lucky and she sees him and understands
him and lets him be the version he needs to be.
But the son can't because his son's needs are not
getting met. And the son, like you said, desperately wants
to know something true, something real, to the point that
he becomes a journalist. He's working out his own shit
through his career where he's he could never learn the
truth from Dad, so he's now becoming a fact finder
and a journalistic writer, where he's becoming known and famous
for telling the truth. He is becoming the opposite of
Dad and being so good at investigative reporting that it's
his truth telling that's validated by the world, not his
fantastical stories.
Speaker 1: And I think that leads me to such a good
example of where William Edward keep missing each other is
Edward says, one point to try to like connect with
William Ish is like we're both storytellers, Like isn't that cool? Basically,
Like isn't that beautiful that we both that's what we
have in common. Missing the point that you just made, Ben,
which is, h you're very different. That's you know, you're
very different storytellers because you're right like his son chose
the version of storytelling that is the most rooted in
like ethical realism, like ethical truth. Cannot you cannot do
tall tales and be a respected journalist.
Speaker 4: Correct, you can't. You have to do the opposite. And
because that's his deepest need, Dad's.
Speaker 2: Not seeing him.
Speaker 4: And yeah, he says in that speech you're talking about,
isn't it so cool that I tell stories with my
mouth and you tell them with your writing? Basically, And.
Speaker 2: You're so right that he just utterly missed.
Speaker 4: The mechanism that he uses to tell the stories is
the polar opposite. And it's because of your failures as
a dad to not ever tell me anything true, but
to make sure everybody knows the version of you you
want them to. Even though more of it was true
than William ever believed, it wasn't true to William because
he saw through that he saw the cracks in the
story enough to know that ain't it. That can't be it.
The way you're telling it is not the full truth,
but you're making everybody believe it is.
Speaker 1: And maybe William would have believed your stories more if
he saw you more. So it's like also the combination
of these tall tales and being gone so much so
you're creating this vacuum for your kid, where like you
were saying, he's like fiending for details about you, for
closeness to you, and so maybe if you were around
more William, you know what I mean, It's just like
Edward's just like he's missing it, Like I think it's
what's also like, just like sad about the movie is
I keep saying in this relationship, is that they're both
decent people. They just cannot find each other. You know,
I wrote in my notes because I guess I was
feeling poetic. Edward was William's big fish that he couldn't catch,
like that is William's big fish is his dad.
Speaker 6: And I couldn't get you.
Speaker 1: And even when I thought maybe I got you on
the line, you and then even till the very end
of the story, he never got his dad, which is
an interesting choice narratively that his dad died still being
like ten toes down about these fantastical stories and keep
insisting to William to the very end, like no, that
was the truth, and yeah, so William never caught.
Speaker 4: Him, except that he did because he's I only saw
him in a way that allowed them to connect. When
he tells his dad his own tall tale of his
dad's passing that allows the dad to feel like he's
been seen and heard and connected. If the Sun is
showing this empathy and connection, and did the Sun ever
get from Dad that truth that he was asking or Dad,
I just want to know what's true. The dad insisting
that what I told you is true is about as
validating as Obi Wan sitting with Luke in Return of
the Jedi after Yoda dies, going well, they told Jules
true from a certain points of view, which rings so
fucking empty when I watch it as an adult.
Speaker 3: What's that accent?
Speaker 2: He told me I'm allowed to do one episode?
Speaker 3: That's that accent?
Speaker 6: Did we That's an accent?
Speaker 2: It's a really bad one.
Speaker 6: I mean for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm good at a lot of things, accents is
not one of them.
Speaker 3: And it really is. I've never claimed to be good
at it.
Speaker 1: And yet it persists, it persists, and nevertheless he persists.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The thing is it amuses me how bad it is.
So I know, yeah, I know. I'm not trying to
be good at it. I'm not claiming it.
Speaker 3: I don't think you could try to be. I don't
think you have a chance of being good at it.
Not to be a bitch, but.
Speaker 4: I don't think being a dialect period actor is probably
in my future at forty years old. Yeah, I'm okay
with that. I would be, you know, more like Seth Rogan,
when he took on the role of Donkey Kong, told
the directors.
Speaker 2: Like, I don't do accents. This is just my voice,
is what I do. I do this one thing, and
that's what I do.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you and Chris prompt.
Speaker 1: So why don't we keep putting him in animated movies?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 4: He does different voices that are still the same, more
than Seth rogen does.
Speaker 3: Did you what you just said?
Speaker 6: The different voices that are just the same.
Speaker 4: I mean, his Mario and his Garfield were different, but
how different is not much?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they were Mario.
Speaker 4: Had a little bit of like really really really bad
New York accent.
Speaker 3: Too to me, Christ Jesus well AnyWho I do. I
don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like me and Hannah were eyeballing each other
while you were talking, Ben, because I had to had
a different read on that part of the movie in
that I don't know if he I think he came
to terms with the fact that he's never gonna get
what he needs from his dad and that his dad's
fucking dying, and so why not just give him this
story to send him off. I don't know how much
of it is.
Speaker 3: Him.
Speaker 1: I think he's got to have work later post movie
in terms of coming to terms, maybe also when he
becomes a dad, right, like coming to terms with.
Speaker 6: The stuff with his dad.
Speaker 1: But I viewed that part of it is more of
like he's letting go and giving his dad a gift
as his dad like leaves the planet, and not so
much him. I don't know exactly how you said it,
but like like being in agreement with his dad.
Speaker 6: I know it's not exactly what he said, but no.
Speaker 4: Not what I meant either. What I mean is he
is reaching a point of acceptance like you said that
in order to give my dad this gift so he
can go in peace and be given the thing that
the one thing that he couldn't have and probably perpetuated
this story to your point is that he never did
connect with me. But we can connect here. But I
have to do it. I have to connect to Dad
in the way that Dad connects to the world, which
is him giving himself a gift and giving his dad
a gift and like a last one of being seen
I got. This is the last chance I have for
my dad to feel seen by me, his son. The
only person who can carry on his story and his legacy,
which is what he wanted more than anything, was to
live on after his death, to be bigger than his life.
Speaker 2: And the only way I can guarantee that for him.
Speaker 4: Is to tell this story that he feels seen and
relevant enough by me that I heard him over all
these years. So he takes care to use his fact
finding to say, all of these people that I've heard
you tell, all these stories, all of them are here.
When we're doing this visualization exercise of validating your whole life,
I'm letting you know I heard you, I see you,
I know who you were, and I know who you
were or not, and I know how you would want
to be seen after you're gone. So I'm going to
give you that so you hear it and feel reassured
that all of these things that made up who you
needed to be are seen and will carry on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really feel like that.
Speaker 5: I really feel like William is giving his father a gift.
I think William is in a place that really what
both of you are talking about right now, in terms
of William coming to the conclusion to himself in some
way that he can't give me what I need. I've tried.
I've tried a couple times while I've been here. I've tried.
Maybe other times in his life he also tried, and
I think he does it have some acceptance at the
end of the only way of maybe this is the
best way I can say goodbye to him is by
telling him that I heard him when he said all
those stories, and I know the big players in his
stories that he's told. And so I think that's one
of the beautiful moments in the movie that I think
that's why I love this movie so much, is because
even though William still isn't getting his need met and
will definitely need to go to therapy probably as soon
as he has that kid that he was able to
just let his own guard down and be like, this
is the only way that I'm gonna this is the
last connection I'm ever going to be able to have
with him.
Speaker 3: Is it that big of a deal if I.
Speaker 5: Have to say it back to him the way that
he said it to me for so long?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right in that it's having a
good goodbye, you know.
Speaker 6: And I do that work.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we all do that work with clients where
it's like what hill are you gonna die on? Basically?
And is that worth it to you? Is it gonna
be worth it to push, push push on this until
your dad fucking dies, you know what I mean? Like,
if I was working with William, I would say, like,
if you feel like you need to do this, you
can keep harping on this until the end, and.
Speaker 6: Like, what how will that feel?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: Do you think to be so stuck on this or
are you able to like let go of some of
that's you can have good last memories of your dad,
especially because if he's not if he's not getting with
the program by now, like on his deathbed, he ain't,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: And whatever thing's going on in there.
Speaker 1: That makes it so important to him to like keep
this story going, that's there, you know what I mean,
And it's not gonna change in the last like month
of his life or week of his life, and he
probably doesn't know how. Also, if you're sticking to this
kind of shit until you're this old, my assumption is
is you just don't know how to do it any
differently William. Also, like you said, Ben of like giving
William giving himself a gift too, It's like, is that
how you want your last moments with your dad to be.
Speaker 4: Which becomes a gift you can give to yourself. Because
something I think for William that is in the way
is realizing even though his dad can't, like he said,
he's not going to he can't. He can't because he
hasn't told that version of the story to himself. And
the weaker he grows, the less likely he's going to
be to do it. Because the whole mechanism that he's
been avoiding his whole fucking life is being sick, and
he's sick, So the likelihood he's going to spontaneously conquer
that demon and slay it on his deathbed, when that's
what's slaying him on his deathbed is none.
Speaker 2: But what he can get.
Speaker 4: Is realize that his dad, while he didn't really ever
see him, he did, in his way frequently tell these
versions of stories that he was trying to communicate meaning
and purpose and lessons to his son about how to be,
how to conquer the world, how to conquer yourself. Unfortunately,
it's all done from this arrested development standpoint. That's his
dad is the main character, and you're my son, so
you can be like me, which isn't how that shit works.
It can be important to connect to people and provide
relevance and acknowledgment to their stories by connecting stories to it,
but expecting them to be able to replicate your stories
not how that works, and can feel like a barrier
to being seen and connected. And Dad never sees he's
never going to, but William being able to see that
Dad taught me a lot of things about life. That
one of them I need to see right now is
that story about I don't remember what Roy's name is,
so he's going to be Roy. But over and over
he's trying to tell me that you can, in fact
stress yourself out so much by being so angry and
so unhappy that you can die early on the toilet
in an embarrassing way while hoardling a nudie book. Right, like,
probably none of that would actually happened.
Speaker 5: So embarrassing, so embarrassing. But also I think you're absolutely right.
I think that Edward just made that whole part up
because it's too perfect.
Speaker 3: It's too perfect to be true.
Speaker 4: He beat my ass for stealing his girl, and then
he died on the toilet while reading a porno book.
The story, The point that his dad probably learned through
all life is you can actually die from stressing yourself
out to the point that you activate something in your
body you didn't know was there through stress and being
a miserable fuck. And you're being a little bit of
a miserable fuck right now, son, and maybe recognize that
could kill you, instead of having an adult conversation where
you communicate that directly and meet his needs. Because your
son is not the same as you, and the fantastical
side of things doesn't.
Speaker 2: Register with him at all.
Speaker 4: He likes the boring, the details, the unknowing, and you,
as a dad, are failing by not seeing that is true,
but his son also recognizing my dad loved me in
the way he could as a gift he's giving himself,
even if there's going to be therapy to need to
be done later about how it felt to not have
your needs met the whole time and not see that,
or not having your dad see that the way you're
trying to connect with me is not the way that
connects with me, no matter how many times you try it.
Speaker 1: It actually makes me think of how when I worked
with teenagers and their parents, I would every once in
a while.
Speaker 3: Have to do.
Speaker 1: The lecture lecture, the lecture spiel with the parent, and
I never did in front of the kid because I
didn't want into some power the parent. Like that is
when I would tell parents the way that you're communicating
with your kid via lecturing, which I could make of
the parallel with Edward of like via stories, it's not
working in terms of like if there's an outcome, because
when parents lecture, it's because they're thinking that there's this
outcome in their mind of like this will turn my
kid around or keep my kid from making this bad choice.
Speaker 6: Whatever, you know, they're trying to teach their kid a.
Speaker 1: Lesson, And what I have to figure out how to
artfully tell the parent because I would get nervous every
time I had to give this speech, because no one
wants to be told they're being a lecturer and that
it's not good and that it's also for them and
not their kid.
Speaker 3: And so what I would have to figure how.
Speaker 1: To tell the parent when you're giving these big speeches
to your kid. But what's the objective here? And usually
they had a very earnest one, you know, like I
don't want them to make the same mistake excited, I
want them to not do this stuff whatever, And I'd say,
is that working? And if they were seeing me, that
means it wasn't. And so I would say, okay, So
if it's not working, if it's not having the outcome
you want, and it's actually maybe even becoming a barrier
in your relationship to your kid, it's becoming a net
negative perhaps, and why are we still doing it?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 1: And so then the parent has to kind of come
around if they can with me to the idea of like, oh,
is lecturing something I do for me? If it's not
actually having the outcome, and I keep doing it like
it's an emotional thing I'm doing then, not a rational
thing I'm doing. And so with the Edward thing, I
think it's the same idea, right if I got to
work with them, which is edward, if your objective is
to make your son Field type way about you or
feel closer to you, He's saying, Babe, it's not working,
So why are we still doing this? And can you
acknowledge that this is for you? And if you really
want this outcome with your son, we have to be
open to a different way of doing it. And you
need to You need to manage and figure out with
your own stuff how to rein in this behavior that
is for you. But parents, I mean adults with do
this all the time, where we do something that we
think is for the kids in our lives, which really
it's for us.
Speaker 6: It requires a.
Speaker 1: Little bit of an ego death right. And that's what
I knew I was asking those parents in the moment. Wich
is why I alway kind of hold my breath, like
brace myself for a slap, if you will, because because
I know that I'm asking them to really like practice
humility in that moment in front of me of like,
you're not doing this really for your kid. You think
you are, but this is an emotional thing you're doing
and it's not working. And I think similar to him,
he'd have to have that come to Jesus thing of like,
even if you think this is the language you speak
and so you're wanting to be the language to your kid,
it's not connecting.
Speaker 6: And so it's it's for you.
Speaker 4: It's very important if you have a parent who is
let's say religious.
Speaker 6: That's a great comparison.
Speaker 4: And the child who isn't, especially like later in either
teenage years or adulthood years, where you know it's going
to become a little bit more clear that you know,
the whatever religion the family is a kid, maybe you
know not so much if you keep trying to connect
to the kid using the religious fables, which is more
or less what Edward is doing is telling life lessness
through fables. Is you keep doing it through a context
and a narrative which has been rejected by the child,
and you can keep going like, well, I mean in
Jesus's story, da Dad or Daniel did this?
Speaker 2: Think about David and Goliath.
Speaker 4: Then the person who is not religious in his rejected religion.
Maybe religion has even harmed them some way, shape or form.
Speaker 3: Ding ding ding ding ding. That's usually what it is.
Speaker 4: What millennials and later have turned away from religion and
shocking droves because they're like, hey, remember how this hurt
me or was used to tell me I'm not good
enough for my sexuality or whatever else was wrong? What
that's the cause of it. People have been using that
as a cover for white supremacy. What what what?
Speaker 2: No way? And it's just nodding at me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4: And that's not all religion has been used for. For
religious folks that get it. There's religion has done many
good things, but to not acknowledge the things that it's
done to harm is really blind and unfair to the
people that have been very, very harmed by it. But
looking at if you're trying to connect to a child
through just religious fables over and over, and that's not
a thing that they see the world through.
Speaker 2: It's not a lens that connects with them.
Speaker 4: They're rejecting everything else you say, because the entire premise
you're trying to use to connect with them is invalidating.
And that is where Edward is missing.
Speaker 2: William.
Speaker 1: And also it reiterates this idea that I am not
interested and I don't mean this like intentionally on the
parent's part, but what it also communicates to the kid
is like, I'm not interested in you, like in what
is meaningful to you, in what you care about. I
only want to see you through the lens in which
I like to see the world. And that's also where
like it's kind of when we talk about like Imotaster,
mister Fox. That was coming to mind when we were
talking about like the speeches the dad gives is, like
William says in the beginning, even at my own wedding,
I don't get to be the center of attention. How
Edward is so locked into the story the religion that
is I am a hero, I am the center. And
so because that means something so great to me, it
most means something to you. And how egocentric that is,
I mean really egocentric in our way.
Speaker 6: That's a rusted development. If we're positing that.
Speaker 1: It's very possible that Edward is stuck in a developmental
stage where you are egocentric.
Speaker 4: I think it's the best explanation of his behavior. We've
talked about that a lot. So I'm not going to
reiterate a bunch of stuff. But I don't see narcissism
in him where he needs to be connected to the
biggest and the best in all this stuff. I see
it more as childlike egocentrism, where this has been my story,
but I need validation through it rather than I'm not
good enough and you all aren't good or I'm the
best and you all are you know second because you
haven't had my life. He's not seeking to make other
people less than he's seeking validation.
Speaker 3: Other than that guy in high school.
Speaker 6: He's not very competitive. He just is ecocentric.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's what makes it as
we've been talking about it today, it really makes it
makes the story make a lot of sense that that's
where his dad is coming from, this place where he
has to be the hero in order to communicate what
his experience was like.
Speaker 4: It's almost like he's dressing like a bat to take
on all the crime.
Speaker 1: You've been raally on the niest buddy. With all these
two references, at least that seems like one Star Wars
one and an accent, you're really someone close to the edge,
butge the absolute edge On that note.
Speaker 2: In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we'll take another break
here and be back shortly. Is there there anything more
we want to say? I know we didn't exactly go
into a section of William, but we did end up
talking a lot about William obviously and talking about Edward.
But is there anything more specific about William that we
want to make sure to highlight and discuss before we
move on to treatment and final thoughts? Yeah? I think
the only thing I want to say about William is
I want to give him credit as a character in
that he still holds and practices a lot of kindness,
even with how disappointed he is with his father. They
have that one big fight at the wedding, which I
understand because that felt like a breaking point for William.
I'm sure William was telling himself like maybe, but I'm
sure at my wedding he'll be cool, and then he wasn't,
and then he freaked out, which he crashed out, as
the kids would say, And I understand that, but I
would say, like, as soon as he realizes his dad's sick,
he drops everything. He shows up, he's very kind, he
still calls home even though he doesn't talk to his
daddy all doesn't fight with his dad, and he kind
of does this weird like thing where they use the
mom as the intermediary. So I do want to give
William as a character credit that as much as he's
feeling this deep pain, he doesn't get caught. He doesn't
get caught in his ego throughout this, Like even the
kind of picking at his dad he does in the hospital,
I understand. I get his final like hail Mary of
like maybe now he'll tell me something fucking true. But
even then he doesn't go too hard at it and
he drops it as soon as it doesn't seem like
it makes us like it's worth it anymore. So I
think that says a lot about how mature William is actually,
And it makes sense then why we see the little
scene when he is his kid later and he's telling
the stories like that he's kind of come to his
own growth, because he can grow, and I think we
see that even in the small bits of him we see,
whereas Edward can't. And I think that's a good juxapas
of these two characters, which also might say something to
like the times they're in. William is modern as of
the making of the movie, and so probably has more
access to things like therapy.
Speaker 4: He does deserve credit, and in particularly he deserves credit
for making peace within himself that his dad was in
fact telling him a lot of truth, just in a
different way, and some of those truths are actually worthy
of carrying on and seeing him correct the kid who
is like, your grandpa couldn't have done all that and
like Dad, Nope, true, you know, just kind of letting
it be wiped, Like nope, that is one what.
Speaker 2: Happened whatever way.
Speaker 4: He says that with a little bit of a smile,
because that kid didn't hear the story from anybody other
than William. That was a story he chose to tell
and kind of honor the memory of his dad and
keep what was good while sorting what wasn't and choosing
which version of a loved one who's died we keep
alive doesn't always benefit us a whole lot. To keep
alive all of the not good parts of a person
we need him selectively, of course, but choosing ultimately which
schema a person falls into, whether they were largely a
good or largely a bad presence or were they mixed, right.
Speaker 2: It's part of a gift.
Speaker 4: You can give yourself a self validation of this is
who I'm going to choose to see my dad ass
even though I may not have been able to get
everything I needed from him.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: And also he's doing a good job of not passing
down his shit to his son. He's letting his dad
be this person to his son, like, be this fun character,
not like passing down his whole resentment and all that stuff.
Your grandpa was a bullshitter, you know what I mean,
And your grandpa talk about trash like he could have
definitely presented that version. So I think it's also very
sweet that William is letting that go like you're saying,
and also just letting his son have a fun idea
of who his grandpa was instead of instead of William
needing his son to know what his grandpa was to him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. I think one of the hopeful parts
about the film in general is that William can be
a different man than his father, and he can certainly
be a different kind of father to his child, and
he will need therapy when his kid is born, because
in my experience with siblings and with clients, and is
that when you have.
Speaker 3: Your first child and you feel that.
Speaker 5: Unconditional love for or this little being that you and
your partner made together or whatever. That realization of how
much love that you experience in those moments and being
confused about why why your parents did what they did
and acted the way that they did, and sometimes that
can become very real in those moments of after having
your own child, even like hours, even days.
Speaker 4: From the second you see the heartbeat on the monitor,
maybe from the second you see the plus on the
pregnancy test, those things activate one thousand percent where you
realize that love and you has started in a way
you never felt about anything than the questions.
Speaker 2: How you comes You're right they do.
Speaker 4: And we've all had many sessions with people about those
and you guys aren't parents and I am, And the
moments you hold your child and go now, I would
do any goddamn thing for these kids. How the fuck
did we get to the point that that wasn't true
for me? Although you do also get the other side
of that of going, oh that meme from returning the
Jedda Eats were on a team today where parents have
made it where it's not until you become a parent
where you understand why Yoda just rolled over and died
because he got tired of answering Luke's questions.
Speaker 1: I used to carry around a yellow pad legal pad
because my mom's an accountant, and I would write questions
in it that I would then make my mother answer
like a tiny reporter.
Speaker 3: It's incredible, that's truly incredible.
Speaker 1: You would put answers and then she'd have to circle
the answer to the question.
Speaker 6: While she's doing laundering stuff. I'm just like popping up
on her ass, like, excuse me.
Speaker 3: Missus Brownfield, I have some questions for.
Speaker 2: You, quirky kit alert, like something Ava would do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, on that note, we'll take a break here
and be back with treatment. So, Ben, Hannah, which one
of you two want to go first for treatment?
Speaker 3: I'll go first.
Speaker 5: So when I was thinking about treatment for this film,
I was really thinking about even though we don't get
a lot of information about the mom, I was really
thinking about the different roles that are in this family
and how doing family therapy. Clearly, before Ibird dies in
this semi story, he's not dead yet, where everybody is
playing a role in this dynamic right, we have the
mom being.
Speaker 3: The peacekeeper in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, we have Edward being the.
Speaker 3: Star of the show for lack of a better way
to say it.
Speaker 5: And then we have William who is trying to communicate
effectively but can't because he has to go through his
mother in order to get the information to his dad.
So something that I would really want to do with
them is just talk to them about their roles, like
what do you feel like your job is in the family,
what do you feel like you're responsible for, and really talking.
Speaker 6: About that with all of them.
Speaker 5: And I'm also thinking about William being an adult, so
this is an adult This is adult family therapy and
allowing them to not only understand their roles, but to
understand how their dynamic was created, so that maybe we
can create a dynamic that feels more comfortable but also
more equal and truly more communicative. And helping them understand
their roles also helps them gives them more awareness. Something
I learned more and more as a therapist is that
giving people the chance to have increased awareness about pretty
much anything.
Speaker 3: Is really really helpful.
Speaker 5: They can say, oh, I know what this is, I
know what this feeling is, I know where this feeling goes.
I know where it comes from, and I feel like
sometimes giving people just like psycho education about the situation
that they're currently in can be really helpful, and I
think with their family, that's what I would want to do,
is help them understand their roles and also help them
see and fit into different roles that are more comfortable
for everyone, where we don't have to have this disconnection
between especially as adults, don't have to have this kind
of like the dad is the dad, and he's he's
in charge, and whatever he says goes like that kind
of shit where you have to listen to Edward and
you have to do what he says and all of
these different pieces everything revolves around him and really shifting
that not necessarily to be where William is the spotlight,
but certainly where it's more fucking equal, because I feel
like the mom also doesn't in a lot of ways,
and I know, again we don't have lot of information
about her, but I feel like in a lot of ways,
the mom is also not having the relationship that she
wants to have with William because she has to be
the peacekeeper, which means in some ways she is on
the dad's side no matter what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she feels like she's so caught up in how
in love she still is with Edward, which is great
for her and Edward.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that she is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're right, like not on not meeting William Moore
where he's at either.
Speaker 4: There's a reason he went to Paris, and that is
probably a significant part of it. That he could not
ever correct the dynamic and split them.
Speaker 1: Can feel validated, Yeah, absolutely absolutely, even though he was
the ones with his mom all the time. Yeah, and
his dad was the one that was leaving, which probably
also felt like a betrayal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost certainly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, So that's what I would want to do.
That would be my treatment for the family.
Speaker 4: Sounds like a very sound treatment plan that would probably
produced some change and hopefully produce some space for William
and be like, so y'all never saw me at all.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. A lot of this shit is unconscious. Yeah,
this role stuff isn't like you wake up today and
say I'm going to be the peacekeeper in the family.
Speaker 3: This is like I have.
Speaker 5: Had to be the go between for these two numbskulls
my whole friggin' adult life. Yep, And I and because
I can't be in a different role, I also can't
have the kinds of relationships that I want to have
because I'm so caught up in the role that I
have to play in order to keep them.
Speaker 4: Okay, and I am over that shit. Yeah, I'll read
letters from my mom and correspond with her, but emotional
closeness between him and any of them is quite clearly absent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: And he's I deliberately sought someone foreign to him, different culture,
different accent, different place. None of it sounds all single
thing lock Alabama. Yeah, Oh damn, I did it again. Okay,
apparently I'm going next. I would pick William. I think
William would be someone who's going to need quite a
bit of therapy time, as we've all pretty well established,
and I think we've covered the reasons why, so I'll
talk more about what I think he would need to do,
because I think William's going to struggle a lot with grief,
and I think what he's going to need to be
able to do is work through the resentment he has
towards his father for not being who he wanted him
to be. I think this idea, I have kind of
a spot a little bit through this podcast is quite
empathic of Edward, and I think William would need to
be able to move through his resentment to get to
the point I'm at with it of seeing there's always
a why, always, and it's always a big why or
small one, but there's always one. And sometimes when people
have a persistent, pervasive block on being able to see
their own shit, it means that whatever they're showing you
is a cover to what they went through that they
don't want seen, and they no longer want to define them.
People will really firmly seek to cover up their weaknesses,
especially from their children, when they don't want something that
wants to find them to continue doing so. The problem
for William has likely been that his dad's persona is
so big and needs to take up so much air
that he probably wasn't seen, and he found v in
when other kids are asking him.
Speaker 2: Did your dad really do that? Is that all really true?
Speaker 4: His value came from telling the truth and telling the
real story, which becomes so pervasive in him that it
becomes his career and he may experience an existential crisis
not only when his own child is born and realizing
that thing you were talking about Hannah, but on a
more positive side of no parent wants their child to
see them as anything other than the hero. I want
to come home and have my kid throw her arms
up and say Daddy's home, and not see what a
roiling piece of shit I have been at some points
in my life, just like everyone else, has done some
shitty things, and my kid doesn't need to know that
truth yet, that every one of us is the villain
in somebody's story. She doesn't need to know that version
of me because I killed that when she was born.
At least the best I could go still fucked up.
I'm a human, right Her mom and I get into arguments.
I get in arguments with her. The best side of
me does not always show up. But the version I
would like her to see as often as possible is
the version of me that's a superhero to her. While
she's little enough that that's what she needs when she
gets older, I need to adapt that and change that
and show her more of the things that William didn't
get right. William didn't get someone to show him at
the vulnerable ages he needed. Nobody is a fucking superhero.
Every one of us fucks up and teenagers need that
guidance from parents that help them see mistakes are made
and we need to learn from them. So for William,
helping him work through the resentment, the anger, the points
where he probably will blame his dad for his mistakes
because dad didn't teach him what not to do, at
least not directly enough that he understood it at the
time he needed to understand it in the way he
needed to understand it.
Speaker 2: I think what he makes.
Speaker 4: Peace with through his big Fish story and then seeing
how he tells stories of his dad to his kid
that his kid then tells and he doesn't correct them,
is he's sorted through some of that resentment, but it's
still there, and he's going to need to work on
making sure that isn't the only story he tells. That
maybe a story he needs to tell later when his
kid is old enough to hear it. But while his
kid is little telling stories of his family, he needs
to be able to sort his own shit enough that
he can tell his kid a story of his grandpa
that's a fun, light story that makes his son pow
to be part of their family. Going to be able
to do that if he's dripping with resentment and anger
from what he didn't get, so being able to help
him process what he didn't get so he can make
room for what he did, and that he can be
mixed appreciative and upset at what he got and what
he didn't get, and can hold space for both equally
without needing one to dominate the space. The same way
he saw his dad do his whole life, and I
think the messaging I would be working on with him
is understanding your dad did all those things for a
reason we need to not repeat. Because whatever things your
dad did that he told stories about covering up, you're
telling the truth about other people's stories your whole life.
And part of the reason of that is because dad
did not tell you that truth, and we need to
find a way to make peace with that. That that
became important to you saw the value without it being
a compulsion you have that's based on the obsession that
I need to know the truth in order to be okay.
I think you realized with telling that fish story of
your dad, you don't have to know the truth to
have heard the truth, to have been told the truth.
Speaker 2: But we have to make space for our.
Speaker 4: Anger that we didn't get what we needed when we
needed it before we can see that. So you have
to continually reprocess, recategorize, reform, britting you were talking about earlier.
You have to be able to emotionally digest things, but
sometimes you have to assign a new emotion to it
to digest it in a different way. The value of
therapist telling us things in different ways or thus that
was you, Hanna that said that, but one of you
were talking about that. Some of the value of therapy
is that sometimes people can sit with you and tell
you a story in a different way. Then you hear
it and it penetrates your armor and you can feel
a different way about it because it was reframed different.
This needs to go through that same process so he
can heal.
Speaker 6: So I think a term that I want to.
Speaker 1: A term I was hearing you not quite used, but
I want to throw out there is dialectical thinking, like
that's a big part of that work with William Wright
is and I've done that when I've worked with people
that have had not great relationships with their parents, and
they kind of do that thing where honestly, sometimes they
go to the other end, which is they're so empathy,
they're trying to be so empathetic towards why their parent
did the things they did to them, that they're like
negating their experience.
Speaker 6: And so the dialectical thinking it.
Speaker 1: Allows you to be like, yeah, my dad maybe did
the best he could and he still mistreated me, and
he wasn't enough and he he hurt me, and how
like you were saying, like, we get stuck in this
binary idea that one of those messages has to like
dominate the narrative. So if I have empathy for my parent,
then it negates my experience of them, or if I
really articulator, if I really in more extreme cases, if
I identify my childhood experience with my parent as abuse,
then I'm negating maybe the trauma they went through or
why they were so angry and abusive all the time.
And so a lot of that work that you're talking about,
Ben is like teaching people to think dialectically that two
things can multiple things can be true once, not just
two things, and multiple things can be true once. Your
dad could have been a very likable person and he
wasn't good enough for like he wasn't what you needed.
Something me and Hannah talked about when Riffy watched the
movie together, is how part of that dialectical that William
needs drop his head around is this kind of tails
into what I'm going to go into is how do
I make peace with a parent that everyone liked so
much that I didn't and the mind fuck of that alone.
Speaker 2: Yep, And I'm not.
Speaker 4: I would never describe myself as a DBT oriented therapist,
but dialectics is an ancient idea. It's a Greek word.
Dialectical thinking is probably not language that I would default to,
but it is an ancient idea that holds the idea
that all of our parts we form have experienced something,
and each of them forms a perspective, and all of
them are valid because they're all part of us, all
encoded through our senses. So multiple viewpoints of the same
story can be true. Which one registers is going to
be different depending on what we needed to learn from it.
Speaker 1: And also, to practice dialectical thinking, all you really have
to do is substitute and where you would put butt
when you're telling these stories to yourself to other people,
and it's a good habit to use anyone listening. I
used to work at a place where we were very
into DBT, and so it was almost like a religion
that all of us clinicians who work there, we like
we were almost like trained out of saying butt and
saying and instead. And I will admit that it does,
it has and it still does, like change the way
I think about things. And how now when I do
catch myself saying but, it almost feels like ooh, that's
not healthy, you know, switch it to and and it does.
It's so interesting from like a seco linguistic perspective, how
that little shift in a three letter word can really
change the way that you think about something. Yep, it can,
and the way you communicate and are heard by other
people too. Like a butt carries a lot of power
with ourselves and with other people. And that power is
like we're canceling out something and the and allows both
things to exist. And it's such a tiny linguistic change
that carries a lot of power. And to the point
that my clients, God love them, they now will catch
themselves saying butt in sessions with me and they go
and and I'm like, good job, I'm training them all.
Speaker 2: Well, this is also what you know.
Speaker 4: Our dear friend, cognitive scientist doctor Jordan from i SU
would say when we were on the panel with him
about Ted last So he made the point to that
live audience, you should never say butt because of the
psycholinguistics and kind of the inherent encoding we're all taught
of don't shoot on yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like once you say but, you're kind of canceling
out whatever was said before the butt.
Speaker 4: Which means you're invalidating. Yeah, the validation you're providing and
the person who's listening you is going to stop.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Why I wanted you and Hannah to go before me
is because what I wanted to bring up is pretty supplemental.
Speaker 6: There isn't as we've talked about.
Speaker 1: It really only is two main characters, two fleshed out
characters in this movie. And I figured, Hannah, you would
do the family therapy part, and then I figured you
Ben would want to do William. So what I wanted
to add was a book that I don't know if
it actually ever brought up on this podcast before, but
this is the first time I'm like formally bringing it up,
which is a book called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature
Parents by lendsy Gibson, and it is an easy read.
It's like one hundred some pages. It's not written academically,
which I really appreciate. So what I like about it
is it's very much written by a working clinician, and
a lot of it's like testimonials and like anecdotal stories
of her clients. But it's something that I think and
something that I think would be really helpful for someone
like William in that it kind of helps you figure
out how to engage with deal with a parent that
you can't compromise with, that you can't reach. And emotionally mature,
I know, isn't the nicest term, and she does a
good job in the book of articulating how emotionally immature
isn't just like parents who are abusive are aggressive, but
also in the way that we've been talking about Edward,
which is someone who is kind of stunted. They have
their own coping stuff that they get stuck in and
you can't reach them, and sort of the main component
of whether you have an emotionally immature parent is how
lonely you feel, and how lonely you felt as a child,
and how lonely you might you may still feel, even
if you come from a family where everyone is quote
unquote close, and so for William kind of we're saying before, like,
when you have a parent that's so well liked and
who probably does talk about you a lot and seems
to be a family person, why do I still feel
this way? I think this book could be able comfort
for William, putting into words his experience, so I would
I also like about the book is it has a
lot of what actions you can take without holding your
breath for the parent to change. You are only in
control of yourself. You aren't in control of your parent.
You can't make them change. You can try stuff. Maybe
it would work, but it also could become a big
mess and keep you stuck in a loop. But she
talks a lot about how, like what are my boundaries?
What are my objectives? If I'm going to go see
my parents and I know that my dad can bait
me into a fight, maybe my goal is to not
get baited and to use coping skills instead, or to
take a break, or to not drink or you know
what I mean, Like, what's within my control? So that
if I'm going to decide to stay in this parent's life,
that it's as not unpleasant. What's the best it could be?
Basically the best of a bad situation. I think that
could be helpful for someone like William or anyone listening
who feels like seen by what we've been talking about is.
I really liked how accessible the book was, how example
forward the book is, and how it does talk a
lot about recentering our control in this situation.
Speaker 6: What can you let go?
Speaker 1: And not for your parents' benefit they might get the
benefit of that, but for your benefit. Why are we
banging our head against a wall waiting for it to
be come adore?
Speaker 6: It's not.
Speaker 1: And if we still want to have these people in
our lives, how do we want to go about that
in a way where we're not like torturing ourselves and
also accepting that they're never going to be like the
fantasy that you have in your head about who they
could be or their potential or whatever. So I just
want to throw that book out there as like supplemental reading.
I'll say it one more time. It's Adult Children of
Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsey Gibson, and you can find
it everywhere. I think we'll take one last break here
and be back with final thoughts. All right, So back
with final thoughts. I can go first. I really like
this movie. I think this is the first time I've
watched in a long time. I think I watched when
it first came out. It's not my favorite Tim Burton movie,
just because I like his more like whimsical, high concept movies.
And I think I also was so like about Edward
the first time I watched it too, So watching it
again for the second time, like years later, I was
really curious how I would feel. And I think because
we're watching it for the podcast, I had my therapist
hat on, and so I think it made it didn't
help how I felt. Also already felt about Edward, kind
of viewing him from the viewpoint as like a child therapist.
But I would say, like, it's a very beautiful movie.
It's a little emotionally manipulative, and that I wanted to
cry at the end, even though I wasn't really invested
in Edward. But I think it's like a classic movie
if you like stuff like that, if you like Tim Burton.
I don't know if I'll ever seek it out again,
but it's definitely something visually like maybe I would keep
it on the background while I was doing other stuff
around the house, so that's how I feel about Big Fish.
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll go next. I guess because I think this
is a Hannah pick, and I think Hannah loves it.
Watching this movie again, it's the first time I watched
it in a why I definitely have watched it many times.
Speaker 2: I love this film.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of value in it about
understanding family, understanding self, and realizing that resenting people for
who they can't be can cause you to miss who
they are and were, and realizing that people don't often
tell the truth anyway. Expecting them to always tell you
the exact truth of who they are, what their stories are,
who they've ben can really invalidate and wall you off
from having genuine connections with people. And sometimes just letting
people have their thing and be their story song as
it doesn't intrude on your validity is important. If their
stories always have to make you less than that's crappy,
and if everything becomes about them all the time, they
need to take a look in the mirror and work
on themselves. But this movie does do a beautiful job
of realizing or helping kind of tell a story of
parents are whole people.
Speaker 2: They had a whole life, just.
Speaker 4: Like anybody else in your life, and creating space for
them to tell you which version of themself has produced
the successful adult version that you know. But letting people
kind of have their own tall tales and be a
legend in their own life is a gift you can give,
and this movie kind of reminds you of that. But
it also has enough masterful storytelling that Tim Burton sneaks
just a few things that I didn't catch until this
time watching of like there's just a few things that
tell the kernel of truth through shots, And I think
it's a beautiful movie that deserves to be watched more
than once throughout someone's life, because as we age and change,
we're going to encounter this with our own parents.
Speaker 2: So I think it's a beautiful way to kind of
examine that.
Speaker 5: I've loved this movie since the first time I saw it.
I was also in the process of grieving people myself,
and so being able to and experience and seeing the
kind of end of life experience that you have with
someone who is on hospice, and so being able to
see William tell that story at the end really gave
me hope that I did the best that I could
with these people that I loved in my life. And
so I love this movie and I and I haven't
actually I haven't actually watched it in a long time.
I don't really know why I always cry at the end.
I've never watched this movie and I cried at the end.
And also I love Ewan McGregor, so that always helps.
Speaker 3: But I just I really, I just really.
Speaker 5: Enjoyed this movie and I always have and I think
and I didn't even notice the things that Ben are
talking about. So now I'm definitely gonna watch it again
and try and find the things that Ben are talking
about because I've seen that movie way too many fucking
times and not have noticed any of that shit. I mean,
like I probably know the fucking dialogue to this film.
Like I watched this film or on repeat for maybe
like three years. So yeah, so I think it's something.
It's just kind of a beautiful film. And I think
that no matter where you are, what your experiences are,
that you'll enjoy kind of seeing the fantastical parts of
the story because it's really entertaining.
Speaker 4: It is it is really entertaining, It's beautiful, there's so
much in it. Curious to hear what you think of
it when you like rewatch it and catch those little things,
because they really caught me when I was rewatching just
some parts today, I was like, I see it. Yeah,
the gold colonels, I see him, and it's fantastical. I
also realized as you're telling that, realizing my own dad
tells to has had some tall tales. That there's one
I wanted to share real quick as there's a time
where my brother's teacher had called my parents and like,
you know, he's having some trouble with some of the
other kids because he's talked about times his dad ate
cuddlefish and snake and tried some other weird things. And
my mom had to sit down to the teacher and
be like, yeah, no, that's real.
Speaker 2: He did that.
Speaker 4: His father's in the Navy and once a year goes
to Korea where they have strange foods to Americans. But
he definitely has done all those things. That's all true,
and the teachers like, oh so. Realizing sometimes the tall
tales of life can also be true and things that
make people like interesting about their family. I think it's
important that people see that and reconsider the narratives, like
you know, the world's a big place. People's parents have
done a lot of things. Maybe don't immediately think kids
are lying to tell a fantastical story. Maybe they're just
telling when they were told and maybe that just me
it was mostly true.
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, we will wrap up here as always.
If you are wanting to find us and tell us
the weird stories your parents told you growing up, you
can email us at popcorn psychologygmail dot com. You can
also find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok at popcorn Psychology,
and like I said earlier, if you want to support us,
you can monetarily by being a Patreon patron or by
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free by leaving us a rating interview wherever you listen
to podcasts. We always appreciate it, and everybody try to
go out there and like, find your big fish.