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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.

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Speaker 3: Hannah Espinoza marriage and family therapists.

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Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists,

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who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed

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mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes

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and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and

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all forms.

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Speaker 4: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 5: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, So today we are doing our first official

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Tim Burton directed film, Believe It or Not, eight season

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in and this is our first actual That seems crazy,

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but I guess it's true. And so today we will

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be talking about Big Fish, and we will primarily be

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talking about the parent child relationship as seen in this

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movie through the characters of Edward and William. Now, this

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story's pretty simple plot wise in that it's about the

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father Edward and his adult son William as Edward is

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at the end of his life from cancer, and he

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and his son William have been a strange for several

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years following a big blowout at William's wedding. Because Edward

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is a bit of a tall tailor, he tells a

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lot of tall tales and it has become a point.

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Speaker 6: Of contention between him and William.

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Speaker 1: So the movie you are seeing sort of the flashbacks

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the scenes of Edward as he tells his life in

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these very fantastical, big tim burtonesque ways, and William trying to,

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I think, make peace with who his dad is. And then,

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as always, we'll talk about treatment and final thoughts. So

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we figured we would start with kind of talking about

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Edward as he is the big fish of which this

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movie speaks. So what are your guys' impressions as therapists

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of Edward.

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Speaker 4: I think Edward tells these stories so that he can

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be validated through the way he sees himself. He's trying

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to find a way to be meaningful, and I think

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the way he grew up. I think we see a

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little glimpse of a scene that tells us what might

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actually have happened to him that created this need to

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be bigger. He talks about being in a bed for

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three years, that he started growing too fast for his body,

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that one day he was sitting in church and he

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just started growing. What did he call it, gigantification?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he calls it that where he has

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no choice but to be bedridden.

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Speaker 2: Which clearly is not what happened.

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Speaker 6: Well, yeah, he's making it sound like he was growing

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up overnight.

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Speaker 2: Which may have happened.

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Speaker 4: I suspect he did have to grow up overnight, but

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he would have gone up in the age of polio

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or scarlet fever or all kinds of diseases that would

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have mandated that. And I my read on and it

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sounded like maybe Hannahs too is it is probably polio.

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Speaker 5: I think that that's the one that makes the most

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sense in terms of what the age that his father

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is and what we know about how they took care

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of people with polio.

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Speaker 2: Right iron lungs. Yeah, at that point in time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think anything else would have made sense

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for why he would have been hooked up to machines

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and having things need to move him, if anything was

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moving him at all. But the contraption he's demonstrating in

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his story or his flashback doesn't make sense, don't think

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it's real. But what does make sense is that if

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he had something that made him sick, and he was

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in fact had stuck in a bed reading encyclopedias where

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he's studying everything, that wanting to be bigger is understandable

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as the only thing you.

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Speaker 2: Have is your imagination.

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Speaker 4: So I suspect for him that desire to grow and

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see that whole world as opposed to some small Alabama

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town and be a folk hero a figure instead of

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the sick kid started this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he definitely has. Well.

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Speaker 1: What is a common threat of all his stories is

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what you're saying is that he is the hero. He's

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always coming in and saving the day in some capacity,

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and always helping people that need help and and being

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like the shiny which we're all like the hero on

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our own story, but he's like the hero in these

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very big, splashy ways and every story he tells, which

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can say a lot about, you know, if you're feeling

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constrained at a young age. And I think if nothing else,

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he definitely talks about how he felt like his world

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was too small for him, the world of his small

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town things like that, Like as soon as he turned eighteen,

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if we believe his story about finding a giant kind

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of connecting to that idea of giantism.

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Speaker 4: Which she did. Yeah, he just wasn't as giant, yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and needing to get out and get into this

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big world. And I do kind of wonder And this

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is a bit of a tangent, but I think it

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comes in is he's eighteen when he first finds the

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town of Specter, Right, He's like wandering through and it's

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almost like an oasis of.

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Speaker 6: A town that he finds.

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Speaker 3: Do you think Specter?

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Speaker 1: I was really like ratling my brain and talking to

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a Hanna about when we're watching it on Sunday. Is

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Specter like the afterlife? Is Specter the metaphor for something?

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Is it a real place? And I'm getting in my

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head about it because later it does seem like a

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real place. But there are things that happen, especially the

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first time he becomes to Spector when he's eighteen, where

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first I was like, oh, did he try to kill

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himself when he was eighteen? Is he just depressed? And

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like Spector is sort of this like metaphor for when

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he's stuck in these depressive episodes where he doesn't want

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to be there anymore. I don't know, it seemed kind

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of like an afterlifey vibe.

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Speaker 4: You're remembering that the woman the little girl, yeah, was real.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, which is where it kind of flies in the

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face of that. But it's so.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting the way that they talk about Specter

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when he's eighteen and goes there and this very like

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we weren't expecting you yet, and it had this feel

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of like is this his way of talking about being

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in like a dark time of his life and making

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it seem like something else.

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Speaker 4: I also shared that vibe, Yeah, and I think it

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was on purpose. I think it was a director misdirect

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that we're seeing this story with through how William hears

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it without understanding that it's very much true that however,

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he came across this town and for whatever reason that

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it's real and the people in it were.

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Speaker 6: Something about it Israel. Yeah version of it is real.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I mean the Little Girl says that he

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and the circus came back and rescued the town from bankruptcy.

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Speaker 6: And like bought all the land pretty much, So.

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Speaker 2: It's real that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's the first one we see that validates that

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what he's saying is more or less true, but perhaps a.

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Speaker 2: Little less fantastical.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, did he own an entire landscaping crew

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full law of twenty people? Seems doubtful with one truck.

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There's little clues in each of these scenes of where

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the fantasticalness is. He's got one truck, just one sitting

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in that scene with all the mowing on right before

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he leaves to Fine Inspector Mighty had some of those

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kids working with him, probably, But did he have an

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empire of lawnmowers making them all rich?

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Speaker 2: It seems doubtful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially at that age, right.

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Speaker 1: And I don't remember the exact details of that exact

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part of the movie, but I remember thinking, wow, Wow,

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we couldn't. We had to accomplish so much at that age.

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We couldn't just accomplish a little. I had to be

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a lot, which I think, to me is like the

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central aspect of Edward that I find. I don't know

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if I want to say the most difficult about his character,

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maybe something we'll just keep talking about as we talk

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about Edward, But how his stories, like I said, like,

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can't just be like a little more bombastic than they were,

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Like the truth of it. It's like how big they

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have to be, like so big that it discounts the

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story actually, at least with his son, as we'll.

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Speaker 6: Talk about later, and seemingly with you. Oh yeah, hm,

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I don't like him.

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Speaker 1: I I'm going to try to be obviously as neutral

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as I can. Well, we're talking about it, but I

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think I guess something to add up top of this

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episode is I don't know if it's because I am

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a child therapist, but I think I kept seeing it

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so much from the child's perspective, like William's perspective, that

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it did make it hard for me to like Edward.

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Speaker 4: I think it's vital that in understanding Edward we recognize

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there's always a reason to his stories. There's always a

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seeking for validation, and people throughout their lifespan will seek

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to correct the invalidation's life has done to them compulsively,

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and they may do it forever because during their developmental years,

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the attachment to ourself and our own story becomes really important.

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And for him, if we're going with this theory that

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he was a sickly kid, which seems likely, all of

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those things he would have wanted to be, he couldn't.

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And during those years where he'd be developing and learning

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and growing, he's sitting in a bed reading stories about

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other people doing it. Those stories will always be fantastical.

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At the age he's at, the American Tall Tales would

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have been real popular, Pey Coast, Bill, Paul Bunyan, John Henry,

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all of those types of stories would have been huge.

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And John Henry was real, the guy who beat the

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steam shovel. You guys, don't You don't remember the American

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Tall Tales, African American man.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know who Baul Bunyan is, and I

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think that's about it. And Davy Crockett, Johnny Appleseed, if

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those fall into the same.

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Speaker 4: Realm, they do. Davy Crockett was also real. Yeah, and

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he was a Tennessee mountain man. Was he the Disney

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Show version seems doubtful, m hmm, But he did some

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of it and he died at the Alamo.

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Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying, though, Like Edward could

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be of a time when this like bombastic storytelling was

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very normal and beloved, perhaps and maybe even encourage. I mean,

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I've come from a family of Irish Catholics and shit,

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so I know when someone's spinning a yarn, as they

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would say.

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Speaker 4: Of course he's spinning a yarn. It's one of the

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ways he learned to cope and to be relevant and

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to assign valued to himself. And he couldn't actually do it,

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So he's going to likely struggle with that throughout his life,

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and I think he did. But he also found ways

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to make himself the hero of the story.

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Speaker 2: The Tall Tale.

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Speaker 4: Much like these stories he would have read and probably

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read over and over and over for years as he's

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stuck in a bed with probably library books, and he

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might not have been able to even read them to himself.

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He might have had to have people read them to him.

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His attachment to that style of storytelling would have likely

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really encoded itself with ways to be relevant, And then

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he went and did a great.

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Speaker 2: Deal of them.

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Speaker 4: You see all the people at the funeral, they're a

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little less fantastical than they were represented, Like the conjoined

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twins are just twins, but they're all there, they're all real.

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Him telling his story and seeking actualization, I think is

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a really powerful way to understand how he worked really

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hard to overcome what he went through, and he really

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wants to be seen for that and have his story

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live beyond him, much like the stories of these people

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he idolized. While he's stuck in.

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Speaker 5: A bed, I feel like Edward, I feel like I

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hear what you're saying, Ben about where what are the

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truths of his stories? And as he gets older, why

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isn't there a realization that his son wants to know

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him and not of him, He wants to know him.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like at the age that.

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Speaker 5: He is, like he won't even budge on his deathbed,

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he won't try to even really listen to what his

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son is saying. So I get the making meaning out

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of maybe his adverse experiences as a kid, Like that's reasonable.

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I get the vibe about Specter in terms of it

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being the way it was lit, the way that it

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was so seemed so magical in the beginning, and the

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first time we see Specter, how magical it looks initially.

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But then also that could just be him being young

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and putting that kind of spin on the city because

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that's how he saw it. But I feel like, after

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a certain amount of time, isn't there any isn't there

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any urge or desire to want to meet your child

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where they are, or is that something that he doesn't

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have access to.

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Speaker 1: It makes me wonder about my brain's kind of going

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in two directions. One is is I do I can't

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get on board with the idea that like Edward is

252
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using these storytelling as a way to deal and reframe trauma,

253
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because he definitely does that when he gets enlisted. You know,

254
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like there's a lot of moments in the movie, like

255
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when he's at the war, which I think is the

256
00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:29,679
Korean War. Took us Me Andhanna a long time agre

257
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,960
out what war they were talking about before we realized

258
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Korean War.

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Speaker 4: Do you have the North Korean flag right there, babe?

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Speaker 3: A gun to my head.

261
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Speaker 1: If you try to tell me to say any flag

262
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and it ain't America or something like that, shoot me down, Babe,

263
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shoot me down anyway. But I do see these moments

264
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when I do get on board with the idea that

265
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he is doing all the storytelling to make sense of

266
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his life, both like the traumatic pieces of it like

267
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going to war, his childhood, and also I think, and

268
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I don't know if, like I wouldn't use the word trauma,

269
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but this split that he has where he wants to live,

270
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this very adventurous life, and in some ways he did,

271
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and simultaneously he chase after, he chased after Sandra and

272
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with that a very simple, basic white picket fence literally life,

273
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and how it's almost like he tore himself in two

274
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with that, and he even says that too, like I

275
00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:44,080
what did he say, I'm not one for I'm not

276
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,600
never much for being at home, and like Williams's later,

277
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like he liked his second life better. And so I

278
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,799
also wonder if there's like an existentially thing happening for him,

279
00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:57,960
or that's there happened for him over his life of

280
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like I love Sandra and this is the life that

281
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,079
can bring a certain kind of happiness, and definitely for

282
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that time period you're very much encouraged to have. And

283
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,119
then also the part of him that wants to be

284
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:20,359
maybe like a single free adventurer, and how you can't

285
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really do both well. And I think the sacrifice of

286
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:30,440
that is his son, and not just as wilksborl later

287
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:34,279
the you know, not telling him the truth of himself,

288
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but also that my biggest bugaboo with Edward is that

289
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he keeps William so separate from this other part of

290
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his life. Because the part of why William doesn't believe

291
00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:54,119
these stories is not just because they're so bananas, it's

292
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also because he doesn't know Dick about them firsthand, Like

293
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,839
his dad has this whole Edward, this whole part of

294
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his life that William never meets, that William never sees,

295
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and so he does not believe.

296
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Speaker 3: Because if you're gonna.

297
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Speaker 1: Tell these tall tales and then have nothing to back

298
00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:14,160
it up in terms of the people that your dad knows,

299
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,240
why wouldn't his mind go to like then what are

300
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:19,720
you doing? Then?

301
00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 6: Why are you why?

302
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,519
Speaker 1: There's like a secrecy about it that I think that's

303
00:18:23,559 --> 00:18:26,440
what really shoots Edward in the foot. And I don't

304
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,160
know if it's this identity existential stuff where he wants

305
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,480
to keep this version of his life separate from this

306
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,559
very like cookie cutter settled version of his life, because

307
00:18:39,559 --> 00:18:41,920
I think that's the part that I find so curious

308
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:48,160
about Edward is this separation. And that's what I kind

309
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,559
of highlighted in my notes is you know, why did

310
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,279
Edward keep his two lives so separate? Like how powerful

311
00:18:54,279 --> 00:18:57,880
it would have been for William even from like a

312
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,759
I want to raise my kid to have morals perspective,

313
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,279
to like bring William to Specter when he is helping

314
00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:10,839
them renovate, introducing him to the people that live there,

315
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,759
showing his son like actively how to help people.

316
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 6: And he doesn't do that at all. He lets his son.

317
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 1: He leaves such a vacuum there that his son's like,

318
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,799
did he have a second family, Like William knows almost

319
00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:28,920
nothing real, like tangible about his dad's life. He's just

320
00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:33,200
expected to believe him and to believe these bonkers level stories.

321
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,799
And then also everybody else in Edward's life and their

322
00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:41,359
life like uh, like Edward's wife, Williams mom are just

323
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,799
like just believe him. And I think that's what I

324
00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:50,039
found so frustrating about Edward is It's one thing to

325
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,839
like paint a tail. It's another thing to like really

326
00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:58,160
hold so much of yourself so far apart from your child,

327
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,480
and not for like a tr reason for that, like

328
00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:04,400
with the Specter stuff, it's not even from like a

329
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,400
trauma perspective of like I'm going to this place where

330
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,359
bad things happen, or it's really difficult and I want

331
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,279
to save my kid from that.

332
00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:12,799
Speaker 6: I really don't.

333
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to understand his motivation for that,

334
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,160
other than I want this life to not involve my

335
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:20,799
wife and kid.

336
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:22,559
Speaker 2: I think it's.

337
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 4: Something he tells us flat out throughout the whole movie

338
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:31,240
that he wants his life to be more, and having

339
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:37,559
the presence that he does, he probably can't resist that

340
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,359
spotlight to be special. Like when he's telling the stories

341
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,880
at the campfire, everything's big and his son's like, here

342
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:44,480
we go again.

343
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, even at like nine, his son.

344
00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:50,039
Speaker 2: Is over it, which makes sense, And.

345
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 5: I feel like the other part with William is that

346
00:20:54,759 --> 00:20:58,160
I also feel like he a part of what I

347
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,920
think a part of William's experience also is is that

348
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,640
he believed those stories for a really, really long time,

349
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,519
and he probably experienced some shame or some embarrassment around

350
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:12,240
peers because he's like, no, like, my dad told me

351
00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:14,640
the story, and the story is true. And I feel

352
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,880
like William probably had an experience where people were like, dude, like,

353
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,839
your dad tells tall tales, what are you talking about?

354
00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:23,519
Speaker 2: He very well may have.

355
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 4: I think what we see demonstrated is that Dad captivates

356
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:36,039
people with stories. He's using the riz that he has

357
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,359
to tell his stories.

358
00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:38,279
Speaker 6: He used it.

359
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,759
Speaker 1: Ran good job, Ben I'm so proud of you for

360
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,440
using riz biblically correct.

361
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 4: He's clearly got constant existential crisis, having the life at

362
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,720
home and then also being a traveling salesman. I'm presuming

363
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:59,160
he's got some guilt that he's not home doing the thing,

364
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,480
and also guilt that he's not fulfilling the promise he

365
00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:07,359
made to that bedridd himself that he would be bigger

366
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,319
and more present and influence more in the world, and

367
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:19,359
he clearly did and didn't, and it probably stopped when

368
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,160
his son was born, which is why the story of

369
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,759
his son being born has to be such a fantastical tale,

370
00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:31,000
because that moment probably marks the formation of that split

371
00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:31,759
you're talking about.

372
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:32,839
Speaker 2: That's probably true.

373
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,559
Speaker 4: That's probably a very difficult moment for him, and if

374
00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:44,440
he didn't accept that change, which many people don't and can't,

375
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,359
he would have had to grieve something he never thought

376
00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:49,480
would be grief.

377
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,319
Speaker 5: I feel like, I don't know if he's as captivating

378
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,640
as is. He takes up all the fucking energy out

379
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,559
of the room, and nobody else can say anything like.

380
00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:00,519
I feel like the way like people are subjected to

381
00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:03,400
his stories at this point, like a story. Everybody at

382
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,839
the wedding had heard already at least one hundred times.

383
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: Well it could be true.

384
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, good.

385
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 5: He just really in some ways feels like he's full

386
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:17,200
of himself in a way that keeps you distant from

387
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,160
other people because you're so much you think that you're

388
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,000
so different from other people. And I like what Brittany

389
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,400
said about them being so separated, like that was a

390
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:31,640
choice that he made. Why did that have to be

391
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,359
a part of the experience. If if William had had

392
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,279
the chance to really learn more about his dad's life,

393
00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:44,240
this movie wouldn't have been made. It's also curious because

394
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:46,640
Tim Burton actually this movie came out in two thousand

395
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,920
and three, I think, and his dad had just had

396
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,279
passed away in like two thousand. So I also feel

397
00:23:54,319 --> 00:23:57,359
like it makes me curious if Tim Burton had a

398
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,079
similar relationship with his dad.

399
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: Oh he find say he did, he did, Okay, Yeah.

400
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,599
Speaker 4: Tim Burton said that him and his dad had both

401
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,720
gone to film school and didn't really see much in

402
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:10,279
each other, and there were a lot of things that

403
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,119
he never got to know or get answers on. So

404
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,839
you're dead on he definitely said those and you can

405
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,599
see it working its way out in art because it's

406
00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:23,799
what he was trying to do. The idea of him

407
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,359
keeping people walled off is almost certainly part of it.

408
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:31,559
He's keeping people distant because I think the writer of

409
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,319
the book and Tim Burton both also said something similar

410
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,079
about having a dad that would keep people kind of

411
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:42,200
walled off and going back to that, you know, protecting

412
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:45,039
himself from trauma story. Think about who he would have

413
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,079
been to the town, a tiny little town like that

414
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,839
in the country, the kid that got so sick they're

415
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,160
in bed and probably got sick in church where everybody

416
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,640
saw it happen, and then is out of school, out

417
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,279
of everything, stuck in a bed that everyone knows you

418
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:07,960
for the wrong reason. How desperately he'd want to not

419
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,119
be known for that, so he tells these stories to

420
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,000
control the narrative around how he's seen. I'm not saying

421
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,680
it's right. I'm not saying that the consequences you guys

422
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,480
are naming aren't dead. Un just remembering there's a reason

423
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:30,359
for every behavior and it's not always narcissism.

424
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,079
Speaker 1: Well, I think I don't think it's narcissism with him.

425
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,000
I think two things can be true at once, right

426
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,599
and I think we're all I think we're all sort

427
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,640
of on the same page with that, in that we

428
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,960
can see how Edward these tales are coping mechanism and

429
00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:51,200
exactly the exact one I'm thinking of is you brought

430
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:54,440
up earlier, so thanks for reminding me. Is his son's birth,

431
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,160
and how he may have this fantastical story and how

432
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,680
that is interesting, how that's like the ones story where

433
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,279
you get the actual alternative version from the doctor about

434
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:08,599
what really happened and how the doctor was What does

435
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:10,839
he say, but the first one's better, or like what

436
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,200
you prefer the first one, the more fantastical one about

437
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,480
the fish, And doesn't Williams say, like not really, I

438
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,720
would have liked the real one.

439
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,799
Speaker 4: And yeah, he calls his dad for not being there.

440
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:29,160
He's like dead, you were in Wichita, Kansas. Yeah, on

441
00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:30,279
a business trip.

442
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,319
Speaker 1: And so this is what I mean by two things

443
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,319
can be true at once and it makes me sad

444
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,039
all like my sadness for it encompasses everyone involved, which

445
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:46,200
is that Edward doesn't know how to stop using this

446
00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:51,599
coping mechanism and like, can't maybe examine why he's so

447
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,400
attached to this coping mechanism and why it's so important

448
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,079
to him that he holds onto these stories even though

449
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,400
his son is telling him, do you as clearly as

450
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:06,920
as clear as you can communicate to someone. These stories

451
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:09,759
do not make me feel close to you. They actually

452
00:27:09,759 --> 00:27:12,759
make me feel very far from you. I just want

453
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:18,039
to know the more like boring truths of your life

454
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,880
because I want to know you. And it gets so

455
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,440
bad that he basically goes like like no contact if

456
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,000
you will, like well, like Midwest nice no contact, which

457
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:30,240
is like we're around each other, but we don't talk.

458
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:34,119
And it makes me sad that if Edward was in therapy,

459
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,519
like it would be so nice to be able to

460
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:38,799
like work through with him. Your son's asking this of you,

461
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,400
Why does it feel so Why what's getting in the

462
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,920
way of meeting that request and and working through that right?

463
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,279
Because I get why Edward does it, and it makes

464
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:56,799
me bummed out for him and for William that he

465
00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:01,400
can't get outside of it. He can't get perspective on it,

466
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:04,319
like there's something obviously, there's a need met. Everything everyone

467
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,319
does is because they're gonna ge at need met, that

468
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,720
need met thing. He can't figure that out or get

469
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,440
out from under that to the point that it it

470
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,279
in some ways, Like I don't want to say ruins,

471
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,240
so I don't think it ruins, but it really steals

472
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,240
time away from his son.

473
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 4: He steals a great deal of time from anything that

474
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,599
makes him feel vulnerable. He doesn't perceive or read the room,

475
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:40,920
the situation, anything, and anybody that doesn't already see him

476
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:43,680
and has heard his stories, He's going to take up

477
00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:47,960
air making sure they hear the story he wants to hear.

478
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,960
And some of them are true and some of them

479
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,759
are a revisionist to cover up the moments of shame, guilt,

480
00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:02,039
weakness that he carries with him, like probably not being

481
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,279
present for the birth of his son.

482
00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:07,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that is something where he probably feels horrible,

483
00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:10,880
And I get why he creates like and that's what

484
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,319
I mean, Like he goes right to that coping mechanism

485
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:17,440
of making this bombastic thing about it, because what it

486
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:22,759
distracts from the truth, which is I miss my son's birth.

487
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:25,960
And also I think what is telling about that as

488
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,440
a coping mechanism is that why do we have to

489
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,039
carry shame about that moment? Like we can feel sad

490
00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:36,759
that we miss that, But you're a traveling salesman, you know,

491
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,079
like there was probably always going to be a good

492
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,559
chance that you were going to miss your son's birth.

493
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,079
Speaker 6: And also, like the doctor says, dads.

494
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: Weren't in the labor and delivery room at that time,

495
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:49,960
and also like dads were probably not expected to be

496
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,279
around that much to that extent, you know, like the

497
00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,400
primary caregiving was done by the mom, just you know, standards.

498
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,759
And so I think also it makes me wonder how

499
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:05,720
much these stories encourage or perpetuate feelings of shame for Edward,

500
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,279
because by having the story, he is perpetuating this idea

501
00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:13,240
that the truth should be kept in a box, or

502
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,119
the truth should be kept in a closet because that's

503
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,359
not good for some reason. Either it's too boring, it's

504
00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:26,599
too shameful, it's too something. And then we see that

505
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,359
he does that's what he starts to do. Like Over

506
00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:33,480
the Top is compartmentalized, he eventually compartmentalizes his whole life,

507
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,440
like he compartmentalizes into two different lives that don't have

508
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:39,200
to be separate. I mean, I think that's where I

509
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:42,279
continue to feel sad, is like he could have been

510
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:45,319
an adventurer and taken William along with him like it

511
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:49,119
bums me out. Also that he felt like these two

512
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,119
lives were so diametrically opposed and that there couldn't be

513
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,799
some combo, some bleeding of those two lives that would

514
00:30:58,839 --> 00:31:01,119
have felt nice, because I think it also would have

515
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:03,279
pissed me the fuck was williamed to know that he

516
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,079
talked about people with me the specter. I'm like, I

517
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:06,599
could have met them, I could have been there, Like,

518
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:09,680
because kids just want to spend time with you, You know that, Ben,

519
00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:11,480
your dad. Kids just want to spend time with you.

520
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:12,079
That's all they want.

521
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:12,799
Speaker 2: That's all they want.

522
00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Well, why don't we take a break here and we

523
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,759
will be right back in the meantime. If you are

524
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,920
a listener and an enjoyer of our podcast, the best

525
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,359
way you can support us, and the freest way is

526
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,599
by giving us a rating and review wherever you listen

527
00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:27,960
to podcasts. It is the best way for new listeners

528
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,279
to find us, and we very much appreciate it, and

529
00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:34,839
we read all your reviews. All right, So, as we

530
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,079
kind of left off this idea of how Edward has

531
00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:44,160
created these like totally separate lives where he's not involving

532
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:48,039
his kid or his wife in this part of his

533
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:49,720
life and how it is. Like I said, it does

534
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:52,519
make me feel sad that he'd and maybe this is

535
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:54,240
a product of the time, like I don't know, you

536
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:55,799
know what I mean, in the fifties of the sixties,

537
00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:58,680
but like this fact that he felt like he only

538
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,359
could go down these two very distant roads from each other,

539
00:32:02,359 --> 00:32:05,720
and that's how he kept it going, instead of instead

540
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:10,680
of finding a way to weave those lives together so

541
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,480
that he could be hopefully more satisfied and then also

542
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,400
he could be closer to his kid.

543
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 4: It is said that that's how he felt he had

544
00:32:23,039 --> 00:32:26,640
to be. I've seen that in people sometimes, and I

545
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,799
think we all probably have that because he has this

546
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,079
identity of being that sick kid. It seems likely that

547
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:35,759
And I don't think I saw anybody from his hometown

548
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:41,000
other than the cheerleaders maybe in that final scene, but

549
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:47,720
that he wasn't around anybody. It wasn't his hometown ever,

550
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,279
that he went back to once he left there.

551
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: I don't think we saw him come back.

552
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, he never seems to have a home community, like

553
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,720
even with no no he oh, even.

554
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: With his wife and kid.

555
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,319
Speaker 1: It's almost like a throwaway part of the movie where

556
00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:07,759
he's like, I got this job, I got her a nice,

557
00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:12,400
big house, and then I said goodbye and I went.

558
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:12,759
Speaker 6: On the road.

559
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: It's almost like that house and his wife and his

560
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,200
kid felt like more of the afterthought to his story,

561
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,839
and he didn't really seem to build Like he did

562
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:28,079
build a lot of community, which is awesome. Unfortunately he

563
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,039
built all this community away from where he lived and

564
00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:35,440
away from his family, and that sucks. I mean, that

565
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,799
just is sad. It is.

566
00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 5: It makes me really curious about what Edward's parent was

567
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,200
like and what and we don't get any of that.

568
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,720
We don't get any information about what Edwards experience was

569
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,599
as a like his relationship with his dad.

570
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: No, just his birth story briefly.

571
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

572
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 5: So I also feel like I wonder if a lot

573
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,640
of his behavior stems from that, so from having a

574
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,400
father he couldn't be close to and didn't know how

575
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,079
to be close to, and.

576
00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: So he.

577
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 5: So he decided that was the only kind of relationship

578
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,639
that his son could have with him. Maybe that's the

579
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:23,000
only relationship that Edward felt like he could have with William. Yeah,

580
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:26,559
I think, I mean, yeah for sure. And also too,

581
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:29,639
depending on what his dad was like, did he think

582
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,840
he was giving William something by creating this persona of

583
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,760
my dad's, like this big hero that goes away and

584
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,679
does crazy, adventurous things and then comes back and tells

585
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,239
me about it and tells everybody about it, as if

586
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,639
Edward's like bringing books that he used to read. It's

587
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:50,440
almost like Edward's bringing those books to his kid.

588
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: But I'm the main character. It's not exciting that your

589
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,960
dad's main character of these stories. Does he even think

590
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,280
about how important he is to William in terms of

591
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,679
like d today touchstone person, Like he has his mom,

592
00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:04,199
and his mom's great, and she takes care of him,

593
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:06,880
and I got him a nice house, and like I'm

594
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:13,280
providing for them. So maybe he never really understood how

595
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,280
important actually being there for your kid is, Like being

596
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,400
there and being boring is better than being away and

597
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,079
being exciting.

598
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,679
Speaker 4: It definitely seems like there's a missing spot in Edward's life.

599
00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:30,800
We really don't get to see what it is. If

600
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,960
I'm looking at the timeline, he is twenty one when

601
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:36,599
he goes to war.

602
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 6: I think so.

603
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: I know he was eighteen when the Specter thing happened

604
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:41,519
the first time.

605
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 4: And then he was with the Circus for three years.

606
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,119
Oh yeah, and it's after that somebody finally learns his address,

607
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:52,920
which means he didn't go home to the Yeah, it.

608
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: Seems like he never goes home once he's eighteen, which

609
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:57,880
is also telling.

610
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 4: Which means that in what the Korean War is what

611
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,480
nineteen fifty one something like that, So that makes him

612
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,760
twenty one, and fifty one means he's born in nineteen thirty,

613
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,840
which means his dad very likely would have been World

614
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,639
War One and would have been a dad that lived

615
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:25,320
through the Depression and therefore would have been likely gone

616
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,159
because the Depression hit the South really really hard, and

617
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,400
dad may have been somebody who was out making it

618
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,039
for the family and gone all the time. We don't

619
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:42,280
know which exact version of it, but we can probably

620
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,519
presume his relationship with his dad wasn't close and he

621
00:36:47,039 --> 00:36:50,760
found his meaning elsewhere in the world, kind of stuck

622
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,360
in that childhood mentality he formed it ten.

623
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, and now that we're talking about it, it

624
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:03,079
does feel very telling that none of his stories include

625
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:06,360
his dad in any capacity, even in like a very

626
00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:08,159
like fantastical way.

627
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,159
Speaker 5: I mean, none of his stories include his family at all. Yeah,

628
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,559
Edward is very much a singular character in most of

629
00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:17,480
the stories that he tells.

630
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,559
Speaker 4: Correct, he's very much telling his own narrative. I think

631
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:29,039
he's stuck in his trauma stories. And then as we

632
00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:33,119
move through all of these different phases of his life,

633
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:38,840
they are centered on him, and some of them tell

634
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,800
that kind of connection to his past in a positive light,

635
00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:49,800
but embellish and others seem like they're a.

636
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: Retcon of a narrative therapy.

637
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,199
Speaker 4: He's trying to tell everyone else so that he can

638
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,360
project the image he wants to cover up the weaknesses

639
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,199
and failures that he's had.

640
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,119
Speaker 5: Do you think that there's a chance that Edward almost

641
00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:10,840
has like arrested development. I'm certain in terms of that

642
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,960
whatever the illness was that he had. So he also

643
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:18,119
has this very childlike view of relationships.

644
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 4: I mean, think about how childlike it is to look

645
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,119
at someone and go, she's beautiful, and I can give

646
00:38:27,199 --> 00:38:31,159
her everything she ever wanted. To the point that poor

647
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:37,199
Roy from the office gets to play second fiddle Againdon againdon.

648
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:42,760
I think it's telling that we don't learn until later

649
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,760
in this story that that dude that Roy was playing

650
00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:50,760
is three years older than him. When we see him

651
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:58,480
competing in every story that guy loses to Edward. He's

652
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,519
worse than him in baseball, he's worse than in basketball.

653
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:04,880
His science fair stuff is just a little bit worse.

654
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,280
And then he's the one who was engaged.

655
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost if that guy is just a stand

656
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:17,519
in for every guy Edward felt contentions with, or if.

657
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: That guy was the guy he is contentious because he

658
00:39:21,039 --> 00:39:24,119
was part of the witch story. He was one of

659
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:25,519
the ones who was putting him up to it and

660
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:29,800
shining him on. And then he's the one that dies

661
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,920
on the toilet, which turned out to be because he

662
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:37,679
was beating up Edward, which all seems a little tall, well.

663
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: Very convenient, the very like tidy story, if you will.

664
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:46,519
And yeah, I mean thinking of him too is like immature,

665
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:51,159
like arrest of development also kind of makes the Sandra

666
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,480
stuff make a little bit more sense to makes, I think. Also,

667
00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:58,840
what's interesting about Edward's story is that he wants so

668
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,039
much to live this like lone wolf kind of adventurous life,

669
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,039
and simultaneously he like doggedly goes after her, like he

670
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:14,159
fights for this basic ass life too. And if I

671
00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:17,199
got to work with him, as you know, as a client,

672
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,559
I would be really curious about examining that point of conflict,

673
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,360
you know, where he because it wasn't like Sander pursued him,

674
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,719
or they fell in love really quickly and she got

675
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,360
pregnant and he had to be with her, you know

676
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,840
what I mean? Like, I do believe the little truth

677
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,320
within his story is that he fell in love with

678
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,519
her and really went after her ass in some capacity. Right,

679
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:48,960
he fought for her and had to like break her

680
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:51,599
up from someone else to get her, and so he

681
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:56,400
made a lot of you'd think conscious choices. But if

682
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,239
we're thinking of him more as someone who's like maybe

683
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,239
stuck in a more immature mindset, was he thinking was

684
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,239
he not thinking far enough in the future. Was he

685
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,400
just thinking, like I love her so much, I want

686
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,239
her and not really thinking about what that means in

687
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,239
terms of the life he's been planning for in his mind.

688
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: I think yes.

689
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,559
Speaker 4: I think Jehannah's point and to what you're tying to

690
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:26,079
is that fantastical version of what love is that he's

691
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:30,360
attached to. You can assume that in his stories that

692
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,239
he was reading, Robin Hood rescued Maid.

693
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:38,559
Speaker 6: Marian right like he found his damsel, correct.

694
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 4: And whether or not it was his damsel in distress

695
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,000
or just the beautiful princess that was destined for him

696
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:48,800
because he's the hero of the story all the time.

697
00:41:49,079 --> 00:41:51,639
So all the stories where the hero did that, he's

698
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:55,559
now replicating in an arreested development kind of way, where

699
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,159
I have to be the one who does these things

700
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,079
because it's my story and she's the most beautiful one

701
00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:07,360
I've ever saw, and he attaches to the idea of

702
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,480
her more than the practical side of it, and it becomes,

703
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,360
you know, the manic pixie dream girl thing we talked

704
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,159
about so thoroughly in the Five Hundred Days of Summer episode,

705
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,199
combined with the same thing that we really hit on

706
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:31,880
with our dear friend bats in the Mask of the Phantasm,

707
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,360
where not the karate in the garage, the.

708
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: Proposal scene, it's disgusting.

709
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 4: But more in why is this man torturing himself with

710
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,920
a childlike idea of what his parents would have wanted,

711
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,400
which is really just a projection of his own egocentric

712
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,159
problem solving that he is stuck in arrested development and

713
00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:00,440
never quite escapes because that's how he found actualization. He

714
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,880
desperately wants to escape the narrative that exists of him

715
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,360
as that sick kid with the dad who didn't care,

716
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,679
I assume or wasn't able to for whatever.

717
00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:15,079
Speaker 2: Dad wasn't present and whatever.

718
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 4: His relationship with mom didn't validate his story, and neither

719
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,559
did anyone in the town because they always saw him

720
00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:24,639
as the sick kid. So therefore his story in that

721
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,679
town can't ever validate him. So specter that was waiting

722
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:30,760
for him and maybe heard from it heard of him

723
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,199
as that sickly kid that got so sick and wasn't

724
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,599
that far away that maybe they didn't hear from him

725
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,840
or the poet told them, but somebody had their story,

726
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,960
and he arrived as already a legend version of himself

727
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:50,880
that this kid is trying so hard, but everyone's like, yeah,

728
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,599
but you're still like that sick kid though, bro, So

729
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:57,280
he can't be there and be the tall tale version

730
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,679
of himself he created in his head through dissociation to

731
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,760
escape being sick in a bed because there was nowhere

732
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,079
else to go but deeper into his imagination where he

733
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:12,920
could find any escape from miserable existence. So we see

734
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,519
that then become arrested development and play out through his

735
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:20,000
life as his most tried and true method of problem

736
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:22,800
solving that he so desperately wants to not be seen

737
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,920
as that sickly kid, that he doesn't let anybody know

738
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,760
the real him because the real hymn can never match

739
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,519
his stories. But as long as he controls that narrative,

740
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:32,480
they'll ever see it.

741
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just develops into this level of avoidance I mean,

742
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,599
and I think this shows up in real world ways

743
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:43,719
where people get so stuck in like a defense mechanism

744
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,159
that came from we We talk about this all the time, right,

745
00:44:46,199 --> 00:44:50,119
like people get stuck in coping mechanisms that help them

746
00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:52,800
survive at one point in their life. But if they

747
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,480
can't let go of it, or if it becomes a

748
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:57,960
part of their identity as they see themselves, which I

749
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,920
think is what happens with Edward, they can't get out

750
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,400
of it. They can't stop doing it. Once it's outlasted,

751
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,239
it's use. And I think, like I said, with Edward,

752
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:12,800
it did out in my opinion, did all lost his

753
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,320
use because it got to a point where, like I said,

754
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,440
he didn't have to keep this life separatistart to really

755
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,280
get in the way. Like as we talk about when

756
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,360
we are meeting clients and assessing them, is some part

757
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,599
of what's going on fucking with your functioning, And for

758
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,559
him it's his relationship to his kid. And it is

759
00:45:32,679 --> 00:45:36,280
kind of like miraculous that Sandra is so happy with

760
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,960
him still and seems to be in love with him still,

761
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,639
Like he got really lucky in finding a woman that

762
00:45:41,679 --> 00:45:45,679
seems to really eat his shit up given everything.

763
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 4: He got very lucky and she sees him and understands

764
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,400
him and lets him be the version he needs to be.

765
00:45:55,079 --> 00:45:59,079
But the son can't because his son's needs are not

766
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,920
getting met. And the son, like you said, desperately wants

767
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,960
to know something true, something real, to the point that

768
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,559
he becomes a journalist. He's working out his own shit

769
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:11,559
through his career where he's he could never learn the

770
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:17,360
truth from Dad, so he's now becoming a fact finder

771
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:25,039
and a journalistic writer, where he's becoming known and famous

772
00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:29,880
for telling the truth. He is becoming the opposite of

773
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,159
Dad and being so good at investigative reporting that it's

774
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:40,280
his truth telling that's validated by the world, not his

775
00:46:40,599 --> 00:46:41,880
fantastical stories.

776
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,199
Speaker 1: And I think that leads me to such a good

777
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,239
example of where William Edward keep missing each other is

778
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,280
Edward says, one point to try to like connect with

779
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,280
William Ish is like we're both storytellers, Like isn't that cool? Basically,

780
00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:00,599
Like isn't that beautiful that we both that's what we

781
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,440
have in common. Missing the point that you just made, Ben,

782
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:08,960
which is, h you're very different. That's you know, you're

783
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:12,880
very different storytellers because you're right like his son chose

784
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,960
the version of storytelling that is the most rooted in

785
00:47:16,119 --> 00:47:21,280
like ethical realism, like ethical truth. Cannot you cannot do

786
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,480
tall tales and be a respected journalist.

787
00:47:25,119 --> 00:47:30,119
Speaker 4: Correct, you can't. You have to do the opposite. And

788
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:34,280
because that's his deepest need, Dad's.

789
00:47:34,039 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 2: Not seeing him.

790
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,039
Speaker 4: And yeah, he says in that speech you're talking about,

791
00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:41,519
isn't it so cool that I tell stories with my

792
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,199
mouth and you tell them with your writing? Basically, And.

793
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 2: You're so right that he just utterly missed.

794
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,039
Speaker 4: The mechanism that he uses to tell the stories is

795
00:47:57,639 --> 00:48:02,039
the polar opposite. And it's because of your failures as

796
00:48:02,079 --> 00:48:06,559
a dad to not ever tell me anything true, but

797
00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:11,079
to make sure everybody knows the version of you you

798
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,719
want them to. Even though more of it was true

799
00:48:16,679 --> 00:48:21,760
than William ever believed, it wasn't true to William because

800
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,639
he saw through that he saw the cracks in the

801
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:33,880
story enough to know that ain't it. That can't be it.

802
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,400
The way you're telling it is not the full truth,

803
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,519
but you're making everybody believe it is.

804
00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:45,519
Speaker 1: And maybe William would have believed your stories more if

805
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:48,840
he saw you more. So it's like also the combination

806
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,760
of these tall tales and being gone so much so

807
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,599
you're creating this vacuum for your kid, where like you

808
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:57,440
were saying, he's like fiending for details about you, for

809
00:48:57,519 --> 00:49:00,840
closeness to you, and so maybe if you were around

810
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,159
more William, you know what I mean, It's just like

811
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,840
Edward's just like he's missing it, Like I think it's

812
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,920
what's also like, just like sad about the movie is

813
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,800
I keep saying in this relationship, is that they're both

814
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,039
decent people. They just cannot find each other. You know,

815
00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:18,679
I wrote in my notes because I guess I was

816
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:22,719
feeling poetic. Edward was William's big fish that he couldn't catch,

817
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:25,679
like that is William's big fish is his dad.

818
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,599
Speaker 6: And I couldn't get you.

819
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:29,679
Speaker 1: And even when I thought maybe I got you on

820
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,400
the line, you and then even till the very end

821
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,079
of the story, he never got his dad, which is

822
00:49:35,079 --> 00:49:42,280
an interesting choice narratively that his dad died still being

823
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:48,119
like ten toes down about these fantastical stories and keep

824
00:49:48,159 --> 00:49:51,119
insisting to William to the very end, like no, that

825
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,079
was the truth, and yeah, so William never caught.

826
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,679
Speaker 4: Him, except that he did because he's I only saw

827
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,679
him in a way that allowed them to connect. When

828
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,760
he tells his dad his own tall tale of his

829
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,239
dad's passing that allows the dad to feel like he's

830
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,920
been seen and heard and connected. If the Sun is

831
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,840
showing this empathy and connection, and did the Sun ever

832
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:23,760
get from Dad that truth that he was asking or Dad,

833
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,760
I just want to know what's true. The dad insisting

834
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,519
that what I told you is true is about as

835
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:32,519
validating as Obi Wan sitting with Luke in Return of

836
00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:35,719
the Jedi after Yoda dies, going well, they told Jules

837
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,960
true from a certain points of view, which rings so

838
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:42,280
fucking empty when I watch it as an adult.

839
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 3: What's that accent?

840
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,199
Speaker 2: He told me I'm allowed to do one episode?

841
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 3: That's that accent?

842
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 6: Did we That's an accent?

843
00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 2: It's a really bad one.

844
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,079
Speaker 6: I mean for sure.

845
00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm good at a lot of things, accents is

846
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:04,280
not one of them.

847
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 3: And it really is. I've never claimed to be good

848
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:08,360
at it.

849
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: And yet it persists, it persists, and nevertheless he persists.

850
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly.

851
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:17,519
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

852
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: The thing is it amuses me how bad it is.

853
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,800
So I know, yeah, I know. I'm not trying to

854
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,519
be good at it. I'm not claiming it.

855
00:51:25,599 --> 00:51:27,559
Speaker 3: I don't think you could try to be. I don't

856
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:29,320
think you have a chance of being good at it.

857
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,159
Not to be a bitch, but.

858
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 4: I don't think being a dialect period actor is probably

859
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,239
in my future at forty years old. Yeah, I'm okay

860
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:46,800
with that. I would be, you know, more like Seth Rogan,

861
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,320
when he took on the role of Donkey Kong, told

862
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:50,440
the directors.

863
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: Like, I don't do accents. This is just my voice,

864
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:56,440
is what I do. I do this one thing, and

865
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:57,159
that's what I do.

866
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, you and Chris prompt.

867
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: So why don't we keep putting him in animated movies?

868
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:05,079
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.

869
00:52:06,159 --> 00:52:10,599
Speaker 4: He does different voices that are still the same, more

870
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:11,679
than Seth rogen does.

871
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 3: Did you what you just said?

872
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 6: The different voices that are just the same.

873
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,599
Speaker 4: I mean, his Mario and his Garfield were different, but

874
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,280
how different is not much?

875
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they were Mario.

876
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,119
Speaker 4: Had a little bit of like really really really bad

877
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,239
New York accent.

878
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:40,119
Speaker 3: Too to me, Christ Jesus well AnyWho I do. I

879
00:52:40,159 --> 00:52:40,480
don't know.

880
00:52:40,559 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: I feel like me and Hannah were eyeballing each other

881
00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:45,639
while you were talking, Ben, because I had to had

882
00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:50,400
a different read on that part of the movie in

883
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:56,039
that I don't know if he I think he came

884
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:59,639
to terms with the fact that he's never gonna get

885
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:03,159
what he needs from his dad and that his dad's

886
00:53:03,199 --> 00:53:06,400
fucking dying, and so why not just give him this

887
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:09,440
story to send him off. I don't know how much

888
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:09,920
of it is.

889
00:53:11,639 --> 00:53:12,039
Speaker 3: Him.

890
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: I think he's got to have work later post movie

891
00:53:17,639 --> 00:53:20,000
in terms of coming to terms, maybe also when he

892
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,199
becomes a dad, right, like coming to terms with.

893
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 6: The stuff with his dad.

894
00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 1: But I viewed that part of it is more of

895
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,239
like he's letting go and giving his dad a gift

896
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,800
as his dad like leaves the planet, and not so

897
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,679
much him. I don't know exactly how you said it,

898
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:42,400
but like like being in agreement with his dad.

899
00:53:42,559 --> 00:53:44,519
Speaker 6: I know it's not exactly what he said, but no.

900
00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 4: Not what I meant either. What I mean is he

901
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,400
is reaching a point of acceptance like you said that

902
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,360
in order to give my dad this gift so he

903
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,280
can go in peace and be given the thing that

904
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,760
the one thing that he couldn't have and probably perpetuated

905
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,000
this story to your point is that he never did

906
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:08,679
connect with me. But we can connect here. But I

907
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,320
have to do it. I have to connect to Dad

908
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,360
in the way that Dad connects to the world, which

909
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,800
is him giving himself a gift and giving his dad

910
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,800
a gift and like a last one of being seen

911
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,320
I got. This is the last chance I have for

912
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,719
my dad to feel seen by me, his son. The

913
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,519
only person who can carry on his story and his legacy,

914
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:30,239
which is what he wanted more than anything, was to

915
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,800
live on after his death, to be bigger than his life.

916
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,079
Speaker 2: And the only way I can guarantee that for him.

917
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 4: Is to tell this story that he feels seen and

918
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,800
relevant enough by me that I heard him over all

919
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,639
these years. So he takes care to use his fact

920
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:54,400
finding to say, all of these people that I've heard

921
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,800
you tell, all these stories, all of them are here.

922
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,519
When we're doing this visualization exercise of validating your whole life,

923
00:55:03,199 --> 00:55:06,480
I'm letting you know I heard you, I see you,

924
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,159
I know who you were, and I know who you

925
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,639
were or not, and I know how you would want

926
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,599
to be seen after you're gone. So I'm going to

927
00:55:15,679 --> 00:55:18,840
give you that so you hear it and feel reassured

928
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,719
that all of these things that made up who you

929
00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:25,440
needed to be are seen and will carry on.

930
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really feel like that.

931
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:35,519
Speaker 5: I really feel like William is giving his father a gift.

932
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,440
I think William is in a place that really what

933
00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:41,400
both of you are talking about right now, in terms

934
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:46,159
of William coming to the conclusion to himself in some

935
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:51,119
way that he can't give me what I need. I've tried.

936
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,320
I've tried a couple times while I've been here. I've tried.

937
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,280
Maybe other times in his life he also tried, and

938
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,840
I think he does it have some acceptance at the

939
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,920
end of the only way of maybe this is the

940
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,239
best way I can say goodbye to him is by

941
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,840
telling him that I heard him when he said all

942
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,400
those stories, and I know the big players in his

943
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,639
stories that he's told. And so I think that's one

944
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:24,920
of the beautiful moments in the movie that I think

945
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:28,519
that's why I love this movie so much, is because

946
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,679
even though William still isn't getting his need met and

947
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,239
will definitely need to go to therapy probably as soon

948
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:40,079
as he has that kid that he was able to

949
00:56:40,119 --> 00:56:43,320
just let his own guard down and be like, this

950
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,320
is the only way that I'm gonna this is the

951
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,159
last connection I'm ever going to be able to have

952
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:48,480
with him.

953
00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:50,679
Speaker 3: Is it that big of a deal if I.

954
00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 5: Have to say it back to him the way that

955
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,119
he said it to me for so long?

956
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right in that it's having a

957
00:56:58,199 --> 00:56:59,800
good goodbye, you know.

958
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:01,159
Speaker 6: And I do that work.

959
00:57:01,159 --> 00:57:03,519
Speaker 1: I'm sure we all do that work with clients where

960
00:57:03,559 --> 00:57:06,360
it's like what hill are you gonna die on? Basically?

961
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,360
And is that worth it to you? Is it gonna

962
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,719
be worth it to push, push push on this until

963
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,480
your dad fucking dies, you know what I mean? Like,

964
00:57:14,519 --> 00:57:16,400
if I was working with William, I would say, like,

965
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,239
if you feel like you need to do this, you

966
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:23,079
can keep harping on this until the end, and.

967
00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:26,119
Speaker 6: Like, what how will that feel?

968
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:27,079
Speaker 5: You know?

969
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: Do you think to be so stuck on this or

970
00:57:30,559 --> 00:57:32,239
are you able to like let go of some of

971
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,119
that's you can have good last memories of your dad,

972
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,920
especially because if he's not if he's not getting with

973
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,239
the program by now, like on his deathbed, he ain't,

974
00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:45,159
you know what I mean?

975
00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 6: And whatever thing's going on in there.

976
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: That makes it so important to him to like keep

977
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:54,840
this story going, that's there, you know what I mean,

978
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,920
And it's not gonna change in the last like month

979
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,440
of his life or week of his life, and he

980
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,639
probably doesn't know how. Also, if you're sticking to this

981
00:58:05,719 --> 00:58:09,079
kind of shit until you're this old, my assumption is

982
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:10,760
is you just don't know how to do it any

983
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,199
differently William. Also, like you said, Ben of like giving

984
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,239
William giving himself a gift too, It's like, is that

985
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,199
how you want your last moments with your dad to be.

986
00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 4: Which becomes a gift you can give to yourself. Because

987
00:58:25,639 --> 00:58:28,440
something I think for William that is in the way

988
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,840
is realizing even though his dad can't, like he said,

989
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,480
he's not going to he can't. He can't because he

990
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,760
hasn't told that version of the story to himself. And

991
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,119
the weaker he grows, the less likely he's going to

992
00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:48,239
be to do it. Because the whole mechanism that he's

993
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,719
been avoiding his whole fucking life is being sick, and

994
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,679
he's sick, So the likelihood he's going to spontaneously conquer

995
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:56,559
that demon and slay it on his deathbed, when that's

996
00:58:56,599 --> 00:59:00,880
what's slaying him on his deathbed is none.

997
00:59:01,639 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 2: But what he can get.

998
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 4: Is realize that his dad, while he didn't really ever

999
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:14,559
see him, he did, in his way frequently tell these

1000
00:59:14,639 --> 00:59:18,079
versions of stories that he was trying to communicate meaning

1001
00:59:18,199 --> 00:59:22,000
and purpose and lessons to his son about how to be,

1002
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,480
how to conquer the world, how to conquer yourself. Unfortunately,

1003
00:59:26,559 --> 00:59:29,760
it's all done from this arrested development standpoint. That's his

1004
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:31,800
dad is the main character, and you're my son, so

1005
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,199
you can be like me, which isn't how that shit works.

1006
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,599
It can be important to connect to people and provide

1007
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,639
relevance and acknowledgment to their stories by connecting stories to it,

1008
00:59:46,199 --> 00:59:50,880
but expecting them to be able to replicate your stories

1009
00:59:51,079 --> 00:59:54,000
not how that works, and can feel like a barrier

1010
00:59:54,119 --> 01:00:01,079
to being seen and connected. And Dad never sees he's

1011
01:00:01,119 --> 01:00:04,519
never going to, but William being able to see that

1012
01:00:04,639 --> 01:00:07,559
Dad taught me a lot of things about life. That

1013
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:10,239
one of them I need to see right now is

1014
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,559
that story about I don't remember what Roy's name is,

1015
01:00:13,599 --> 01:00:18,719
so he's going to be Roy. But over and over

1016
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,119
he's trying to tell me that you can, in fact

1017
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:26,760
stress yourself out so much by being so angry and

1018
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,719
so unhappy that you can die early on the toilet

1019
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:36,280
in an embarrassing way while hoardling a nudie book. Right, like,

1020
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,199
probably none of that would actually happened.

1021
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 5: So embarrassing, so embarrassing. But also I think you're absolutely right.

1022
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,880
I think that Edward just made that whole part up

1023
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:49,639
because it's too perfect.

1024
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:51,239
Speaker 3: It's too perfect to be true.

1025
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 4: He beat my ass for stealing his girl, and then

1026
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,679
he died on the toilet while reading a porno book.

1027
01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:01,840
The story, The point that his dad probably learned through

1028
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,119
all life is you can actually die from stressing yourself

1029
01:01:05,159 --> 01:01:07,440
out to the point that you activate something in your

1030
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,440
body you didn't know was there through stress and being

1031
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,039
a miserable fuck. And you're being a little bit of

1032
01:01:13,079 --> 01:01:16,239
a miserable fuck right now, son, and maybe recognize that

1033
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,719
could kill you, instead of having an adult conversation where

1034
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:22,079
you communicate that directly and meet his needs. Because your

1035
01:01:22,119 --> 01:01:24,039
son is not the same as you, and the fantastical

1036
01:01:24,079 --> 01:01:25,400
side of things doesn't.

1037
01:01:25,159 --> 01:01:26,159
Speaker 2: Register with him at all.

1038
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 4: He likes the boring, the details, the unknowing, and you,

1039
01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:32,960
as a dad, are failing by not seeing that is true,

1040
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,440
but his son also recognizing my dad loved me in

1041
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,599
the way he could as a gift he's giving himself,

1042
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,599
even if there's going to be therapy to need to

1043
01:01:40,599 --> 01:01:43,440
be done later about how it felt to not have

1044
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,559
your needs met the whole time and not see that,

1045
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:47,880
or not having your dad see that the way you're

1046
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,559
trying to connect with me is not the way that

1047
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:53,480
connects with me, no matter how many times you try it.

1048
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,199
Speaker 1: It actually makes me think of how when I worked

1049
01:01:57,239 --> 01:02:01,360
with teenagers and their parents, I would every once in

1050
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:02,000
a while.

1051
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 3: Have to do.

1052
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:09,599
Speaker 1: The lecture lecture, the lecture spiel with the parent, and

1053
01:02:09,639 --> 01:02:10,960
I never did in front of the kid because I

1054
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,679
didn't want into some power the parent. Like that is

1055
01:02:14,639 --> 01:02:18,440
when I would tell parents the way that you're communicating

1056
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,719
with your kid via lecturing, which I could make of

1057
01:02:20,719 --> 01:02:25,599
the parallel with Edward of like via stories, it's not

1058
01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:29,039
working in terms of like if there's an outcome, because

1059
01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:31,440
when parents lecture, it's because they're thinking that there's this

1060
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,840
outcome in their mind of like this will turn my

1061
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,360
kid around or keep my kid from making this bad choice.

1062
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,199
Speaker 6: Whatever, you know, they're trying to teach their kid a.

1063
01:02:40,239 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: Lesson, And what I have to figure out how to

1064
01:02:44,679 --> 01:02:46,800
artfully tell the parent because I would get nervous every

1065
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,199
time I had to give this speech, because no one

1066
01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:50,639
wants to be told they're being a lecturer and that

1067
01:02:50,719 --> 01:02:53,320
it's not good and that it's also for them and

1068
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:53,920
not their kid.

1069
01:02:54,039 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 3: And so what I would have to figure how.

1070
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: To tell the parent when you're giving these big speeches

1071
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,519
to your kid. But what's the objective here? And usually

1072
01:03:02,559 --> 01:03:04,079
they had a very earnest one, you know, like I

1073
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:05,800
don't want them to make the same mistake excited, I

1074
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,599
want them to not do this stuff whatever, And I'd say,

1075
01:03:08,639 --> 01:03:11,960
is that working? And if they were seeing me, that

1076
01:03:12,039 --> 01:03:14,599
means it wasn't. And so I would say, okay, So

1077
01:03:14,639 --> 01:03:16,719
if it's not working, if it's not having the outcome

1078
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,480
you want, and it's actually maybe even becoming a barrier

1079
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,760
in your relationship to your kid, it's becoming a net

1080
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,719
negative perhaps, and why are we still doing it?

1081
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: Then?

1082
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: And so then the parent has to kind of come

1083
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,440
around if they can with me to the idea of like, oh,

1084
01:03:34,599 --> 01:03:37,119
is lecturing something I do for me? If it's not

1085
01:03:37,159 --> 01:03:39,800
actually having the outcome, and I keep doing it like

1086
01:03:40,039 --> 01:03:43,239
it's an emotional thing I'm doing then, not a rational

1087
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,840
thing I'm doing. And so with the Edward thing, I

1088
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,719
think it's the same idea, right if I got to

1089
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:53,760
work with them, which is edward, if your objective is

1090
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,639
to make your son Field type way about you or

1091
01:03:56,679 --> 01:04:00,000
feel closer to you, He's saying, Babe, it's not working,

1092
01:04:01,079 --> 01:04:03,920
So why are we still doing this? And can you

1093
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,480
acknowledge that this is for you? And if you really

1094
01:04:08,519 --> 01:04:11,880
want this outcome with your son, we have to be

1095
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:13,920
open to a different way of doing it. And you

1096
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,719
need to You need to manage and figure out with

1097
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:22,079
your own stuff how to rein in this behavior that

1098
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,280
is for you. But parents, I mean adults with do

1099
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,679
this all the time, where we do something that we

1100
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,239
think is for the kids in our lives, which really

1101
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:31,760
it's for us.

1102
01:04:31,559 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 6: It requires a.

1103
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,079
Speaker 1: Little bit of an ego death right. And that's what

1104
01:04:35,079 --> 01:04:36,519
I knew I was asking those parents in the moment. Wich

1105
01:04:36,519 --> 01:04:38,400
is why I alway kind of hold my breath, like

1106
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,320
brace myself for a slap, if you will, because because

1107
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,840
I know that I'm asking them to really like practice

1108
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,239
humility in that moment in front of me of like,

1109
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,960
you're not doing this really for your kid. You think

1110
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,920
you are, but this is an emotional thing you're doing

1111
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,400
and it's not working. And I think similar to him,

1112
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,159
he'd have to have that come to Jesus thing of like,

1113
01:05:00,719 --> 01:05:02,519
even if you think this is the language you speak

1114
01:05:02,559 --> 01:05:04,199
and so you're wanting to be the language to your kid,

1115
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:05,400
it's not connecting.

1116
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:07,639
Speaker 6: And so it's it's for you.

1117
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 4: It's very important if you have a parent who is

1118
01:05:13,519 --> 01:05:15,519
let's say religious.

1119
01:05:15,039 --> 01:05:16,639
Speaker 6: That's a great comparison.

1120
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 4: And the child who isn't, especially like later in either

1121
01:05:21,039 --> 01:05:24,159
teenage years or adulthood years, where you know it's going

1122
01:05:24,199 --> 01:05:25,880
to become a little bit more clear that you know,

1123
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,119
the whatever religion the family is a kid, maybe you

1124
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:33,519
know not so much if you keep trying to connect

1125
01:05:33,519 --> 01:05:38,599
to the kid using the religious fables, which is more

1126
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:42,079
or less what Edward is doing is telling life lessness

1127
01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:47,079
through fables. Is you keep doing it through a context

1128
01:05:47,119 --> 01:05:52,280
and a narrative which has been rejected by the child,

1129
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,320
and you can keep going like, well, I mean in

1130
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,400
Jesus's story, da Dad or Daniel did this?

1131
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,079
Speaker 2: Think about David and Goliath.

1132
01:06:02,119 --> 01:06:05,639
Speaker 4: Then the person who is not religious in his rejected religion.

1133
01:06:05,679 --> 01:06:10,559
Maybe religion has even harmed them some way, shape or form.

1134
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 3: Ding ding ding ding ding. That's usually what it is.

1135
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 4: What millennials and later have turned away from religion and

1136
01:06:19,519 --> 01:06:22,079
shocking droves because they're like, hey, remember how this hurt

1137
01:06:22,119 --> 01:06:24,320
me or was used to tell me I'm not good

1138
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:30,039
enough for my sexuality or whatever else was wrong? What

1139
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,840
that's the cause of it. People have been using that

1140
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:39,679
as a cover for white supremacy. What what what?

1141
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:42,719
Speaker 2: No way? And it's just nodding at me.

1142
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

1143
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 4: And that's not all religion has been used for. For

1144
01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:51,719
religious folks that get it. There's religion has done many

1145
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,119
good things, but to not acknowledge the things that it's

1146
01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:58,599
done to harm is really blind and unfair to the

1147
01:06:58,599 --> 01:07:01,880
people that have been very, very harmed by it. But

1148
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:04,559
looking at if you're trying to connect to a child

1149
01:07:04,679 --> 01:07:07,000
through just religious fables over and over, and that's not

1150
01:07:07,079 --> 01:07:08,639
a thing that they see the world through.

1151
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: It's not a lens that connects with them.

1152
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:14,679
Speaker 4: They're rejecting everything else you say, because the entire premise

1153
01:07:14,719 --> 01:07:16,880
you're trying to use to connect with them is invalidating.

1154
01:07:17,559 --> 01:07:19,440
And that is where Edward is missing.

1155
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 2: William.

1156
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: And also it reiterates this idea that I am not

1157
01:07:24,599 --> 01:07:27,840
interested and I don't mean this like intentionally on the

1158
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,679
parent's part, but what it also communicates to the kid

1159
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:34,400
is like, I'm not interested in you, like in what

1160
01:07:35,079 --> 01:07:38,360
is meaningful to you, in what you care about. I

1161
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,360
only want to see you through the lens in which

1162
01:07:40,519 --> 01:07:44,719
I like to see the world. And that's also where

1163
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,000
like it's kind of when we talk about like Imotaster,

1164
01:07:47,079 --> 01:07:48,519
mister Fox. That was coming to mind when we were

1165
01:07:48,519 --> 01:07:52,280
talking about like the speeches the dad gives is, like

1166
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:54,440
William says in the beginning, even at my own wedding,

1167
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,800
I don't get to be the center of attention. How

1168
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,920
Edward is so locked into the story the religion that

1169
01:08:01,079 --> 01:08:03,960
is I am a hero, I am the center. And

1170
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,039
so because that means something so great to me, it

1171
01:08:06,159 --> 01:08:10,760
most means something to you. And how egocentric that is,

1172
01:08:11,519 --> 01:08:13,880
I mean really egocentric in our way.

1173
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 6: That's a rusted development. If we're positing that.

1174
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: It's very possible that Edward is stuck in a developmental

1175
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:24,279
stage where you are egocentric.

1176
01:08:25,239 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 4: I think it's the best explanation of his behavior. We've

1177
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:29,960
talked about that a lot. So I'm not going to

1178
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,600
reiterate a bunch of stuff. But I don't see narcissism

1179
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:36,800
in him where he needs to be connected to the

1180
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,960
biggest and the best in all this stuff. I see

1181
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:45,720
it more as childlike egocentrism, where this has been my story,

1182
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:49,000
but I need validation through it rather than I'm not

1183
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,239
good enough and you all aren't good or I'm the

1184
01:08:52,239 --> 01:08:56,039
best and you all are you know second because you

1185
01:08:56,079 --> 01:08:58,880
haven't had my life. He's not seeking to make other

1186
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,199
people less than he's seeking validation.

1187
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 3: Other than that guy in high school.

1188
01:09:04,039 --> 01:09:07,319
Speaker 6: He's not very competitive. He just is ecocentric.

1189
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's what makes it as

1190
01:09:12,039 --> 01:09:15,239
we've been talking about it today, it really makes it

1191
01:09:15,239 --> 01:09:17,039
makes the story make a lot of sense that that's

1192
01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:22,039
where his dad is coming from, this place where he

1193
01:09:22,159 --> 01:09:26,720
has to be the hero in order to communicate what

1194
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:27,880
his experience was like.

1195
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,359
Speaker 4: It's almost like he's dressing like a bat to take

1196
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:33,319
on all the crime.

1197
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: You've been raally on the niest buddy. With all these

1198
01:09:38,159 --> 01:09:41,680
two references, at least that seems like one Star Wars

1199
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,600
one and an accent, you're really someone close to the edge,

1200
01:09:46,159 --> 01:09:49,119
butge the absolute edge On that note.

1201
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,319
Speaker 2: In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

1202
01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we'll take another break

1203
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,640
here and be back shortly. Is there there anything more

1204
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:02,960
we want to say? I know we didn't exactly go

1205
01:10:03,039 --> 01:10:05,479
into a section of William, but we did end up

1206
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,920
talking a lot about William obviously and talking about Edward.

1207
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,680
But is there anything more specific about William that we

1208
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,079
want to make sure to highlight and discuss before we

1209
01:10:15,119 --> 01:10:18,079
move on to treatment and final thoughts? Yeah? I think

1210
01:10:18,079 --> 01:10:19,800
the only thing I want to say about William is

1211
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,560
I want to give him credit as a character in

1212
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,479
that he still holds and practices a lot of kindness,

1213
01:10:28,399 --> 01:10:34,039
even with how disappointed he is with his father. They

1214
01:10:34,079 --> 01:10:37,079
have that one big fight at the wedding, which I

1215
01:10:37,159 --> 01:10:41,199
understand because that felt like a breaking point for William.

1216
01:10:41,239 --> 01:10:43,399
I'm sure William was telling himself like maybe, but I'm

1217
01:10:43,399 --> 01:10:46,199
sure at my wedding he'll be cool, and then he wasn't,

1218
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:48,239
and then he freaked out, which he crashed out, as

1219
01:10:48,279 --> 01:10:50,800
the kids would say, And I understand that, but I

1220
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,239
would say, like, as soon as he realizes his dad's sick,

1221
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,319
he drops everything. He shows up, he's very kind, he

1222
01:10:57,359 --> 01:10:59,520
still calls home even though he doesn't talk to his

1223
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,279
daddy all doesn't fight with his dad, and he kind

1224
01:11:02,279 --> 01:11:04,159
of does this weird like thing where they use the

1225
01:11:04,159 --> 01:11:07,560
mom as the intermediary. So I do want to give

1226
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,279
William as a character credit that as much as he's

1227
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:15,319
feeling this deep pain, he doesn't get caught. He doesn't

1228
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:19,039
get caught in his ego throughout this, Like even the

1229
01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:21,960
kind of picking at his dad he does in the hospital,

1230
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:26,600
I understand. I get his final like hail Mary of

1231
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,359
like maybe now he'll tell me something fucking true. But

1232
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,039
even then he doesn't go too hard at it and

1233
01:11:32,119 --> 01:11:34,039
he drops it as soon as it doesn't seem like

1234
01:11:34,079 --> 01:11:37,439
it makes us like it's worth it anymore. So I

1235
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:40,920
think that says a lot about how mature William is actually,

1236
01:11:42,279 --> 01:11:45,119
And it makes sense then why we see the little

1237
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,920
scene when he is his kid later and he's telling

1238
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,119
the stories like that he's kind of come to his

1239
01:11:50,159 --> 01:11:53,319
own growth, because he can grow, and I think we

1240
01:11:53,359 --> 01:11:55,520
see that even in the small bits of him we see,

1241
01:11:56,279 --> 01:11:59,880
whereas Edward can't. And I think that's a good juxapas

1242
01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:03,960
of these two characters, which also might say something to

1243
01:12:04,039 --> 01:12:07,159
like the times they're in. William is modern as of

1244
01:12:07,199 --> 01:12:09,520
the making of the movie, and so probably has more

1245
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:10,840
access to things like therapy.

1246
01:12:12,119 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 4: He does deserve credit, and in particularly he deserves credit

1247
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:25,880
for making peace within himself that his dad was in

1248
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,920
fact telling him a lot of truth, just in a

1249
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,520
different way, and some of those truths are actually worthy

1250
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:39,840
of carrying on and seeing him correct the kid who

1251
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,640
is like, your grandpa couldn't have done all that and

1252
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:46,000
like Dad, Nope, true, you know, just kind of letting

1253
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:49,920
it be wiped, Like nope, that is one what.

1254
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 2: Happened whatever way.

1255
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,079
Speaker 4: He says that with a little bit of a smile,

1256
01:12:54,119 --> 01:12:58,039
because that kid didn't hear the story from anybody other

1257
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:02,960
than William. That was a story he chose to tell

1258
01:13:03,039 --> 01:13:07,199
and kind of honor the memory of his dad and

1259
01:13:07,399 --> 01:13:12,079
keep what was good while sorting what wasn't and choosing

1260
01:13:12,079 --> 01:13:15,239
which version of a loved one who's died we keep

1261
01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:20,600
alive doesn't always benefit us a whole lot. To keep

1262
01:13:21,119 --> 01:13:23,920
alive all of the not good parts of a person

1263
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:29,279
we need him selectively, of course, but choosing ultimately which

1264
01:13:29,319 --> 01:13:32,640
schema a person falls into, whether they were largely a

1265
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:39,279
good or largely a bad presence or were they mixed, right.

1266
01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 2: It's part of a gift.

1267
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 4: You can give yourself a self validation of this is

1268
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:43,720
who I'm going to choose to see my dad ass

1269
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:46,079
even though I may not have been able to get

1270
01:13:46,119 --> 01:13:47,800
everything I needed from him.

1271
01:13:48,159 --> 01:13:48,319
Speaker 3: Well.

1272
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:50,359
Speaker 1: And also he's doing a good job of not passing

1273
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,119
down his shit to his son. He's letting his dad

1274
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,039
be this person to his son, like, be this fun character,

1275
01:13:57,199 --> 01:13:59,720
not like passing down his whole resentment and all that stuff.

1276
01:14:00,119 --> 01:14:03,600
Your grandpa was a bullshitter, you know what I mean,

1277
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:06,920
And your grandpa talk about trash like he could have

1278
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,239
definitely presented that version. So I think it's also very

1279
01:14:09,239 --> 01:14:12,359
sweet that William is letting that go like you're saying,

1280
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,760
and also just letting his son have a fun idea

1281
01:14:16,199 --> 01:14:19,680
of who his grandpa was instead of instead of William

1282
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,640
needing his son to know what his grandpa was to him.

1283
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:28,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. I think one of the hopeful parts

1284
01:14:28,279 --> 01:14:30,840
about the film in general is that William can be

1285
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:34,600
a different man than his father, and he can certainly

1286
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,680
be a different kind of father to his child, and

1287
01:14:39,239 --> 01:14:44,239
he will need therapy when his kid is born, because

1288
01:14:45,079 --> 01:14:50,800
in my experience with siblings and with clients, and is

1289
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:52,239
that when you have.

1290
01:14:53,079 --> 01:14:56,399
Speaker 3: Your first child and you feel that.

1291
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:03,279
Speaker 5: Unconditional love for or this little being that you and

1292
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:06,560
your partner made together or whatever. That realization of how

1293
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:10,279
much love that you experience in those moments and being

1294
01:15:10,319 --> 01:15:14,439
confused about why why your parents did what they did

1295
01:15:15,279 --> 01:15:17,680
and acted the way that they did, and sometimes that

1296
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,680
can become very real in those moments of after having

1297
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:25,159
your own child, even like hours, even days.

1298
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 4: From the second you see the heartbeat on the monitor,

1299
01:15:31,399 --> 01:15:34,880
maybe from the second you see the plus on the

1300
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:40,920
pregnancy test, those things activate one thousand percent where you

1301
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,119
realize that love and you has started in a way

1302
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:47,199
you never felt about anything than the questions.

1303
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:48,199
Speaker 2: How you comes You're right they do.

1304
01:15:49,199 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 4: And we've all had many sessions with people about those

1305
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:54,920
and you guys aren't parents and I am, And the

1306
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,039
moments you hold your child and go now, I would

1307
01:15:57,079 --> 01:16:03,079
do any goddamn thing for these kids. How the fuck

1308
01:16:03,199 --> 01:16:05,880
did we get to the point that that wasn't true

1309
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:10,039
for me? Although you do also get the other side

1310
01:16:10,079 --> 01:16:15,399
of that of going, oh that meme from returning the

1311
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:17,800
Jedda Eats were on a team today where parents have

1312
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,319
made it where it's not until you become a parent

1313
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:23,079
where you understand why Yoda just rolled over and died

1314
01:16:23,119 --> 01:16:25,159
because he got tired of answering Luke's questions.

1315
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,199
Speaker 1: I used to carry around a yellow pad legal pad

1316
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:33,760
because my mom's an accountant, and I would write questions

1317
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:36,199
in it that I would then make my mother answer

1318
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:39,079
like a tiny reporter.

1319
01:16:39,399 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 3: It's incredible, that's truly incredible.

1320
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 1: You would put answers and then she'd have to circle

1321
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:47,159
the answer to the question.

1322
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,720
Speaker 6: While she's doing laundering stuff. I'm just like popping up

1323
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:52,840
on her ass, like, excuse me.

1324
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 3: Missus Brownfield, I have some questions for.

1325
01:16:54,800 --> 01:17:01,279
Speaker 2: You, quirky kit alert, like something Ava would do.

1326
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:05,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, on that note, we'll take a break here

1327
01:17:05,039 --> 01:17:09,159
and be back with treatment. So, Ben, Hannah, which one

1328
01:17:09,199 --> 01:17:10,680
of you two want to go first for treatment?

1329
01:17:11,039 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 3: I'll go first.

1330
01:17:12,039 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 5: So when I was thinking about treatment for this film,

1331
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:19,079
I was really thinking about even though we don't get

1332
01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:21,560
a lot of information about the mom, I was really

1333
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,479
thinking about the different roles that are in this family

1334
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:29,159
and how doing family therapy. Clearly, before Ibird dies in

1335
01:17:29,239 --> 01:17:33,199
this semi story, he's not dead yet, where everybody is

1336
01:17:33,239 --> 01:17:37,680
playing a role in this dynamic right, we have the

1337
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,079
mom being.

1338
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,680
Speaker 3: The peacekeeper in a lot of different ways.

1339
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, we have Edward being the.

1340
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 3: Star of the show for lack of a better way

1341
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:50,920
to say it.

1342
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:57,520
Speaker 5: And then we have William who is trying to communicate

1343
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,520
effectively but can't because he has to go through his

1344
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,680
mother in order to get the information to his dad.

1345
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:06,199
So something that I would really want to do with

1346
01:18:06,239 --> 01:18:11,159
them is just talk to them about their roles, like

1347
01:18:11,239 --> 01:18:13,479
what do you feel like your job is in the family,

1348
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:17,640
what do you feel like you're responsible for, and really talking.

1349
01:18:17,239 --> 01:18:18,600
Speaker 6: About that with all of them.

1350
01:18:19,039 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 5: And I'm also thinking about William being an adult, so

1351
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,199
this is an adult This is adult family therapy and

1352
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:30,680
allowing them to not only understand their roles, but to

1353
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:34,800
understand how their dynamic was created, so that maybe we

1354
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:39,680
can create a dynamic that feels more comfortable but also

1355
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:46,279
more equal and truly more communicative. And helping them understand

1356
01:18:46,359 --> 01:18:50,960
their roles also helps them gives them more awareness. Something

1357
01:18:51,039 --> 01:18:53,000
I learned more and more as a therapist is that

1358
01:18:53,079 --> 01:18:56,159
giving people the chance to have increased awareness about pretty

1359
01:18:56,239 --> 01:18:57,279
much anything.

1360
01:18:57,760 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 3: Is really really helpful.

1361
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,640
Speaker 5: They can say, oh, I know what this is, I

1362
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:04,680
know what this feeling is, I know where this feeling goes.

1363
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,439
I know where it comes from, and I feel like

1364
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:12,680
sometimes giving people just like psycho education about the situation

1365
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:16,840
that they're currently in can be really helpful, and I

1366
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:20,000
think with their family, that's what I would want to do,

1367
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:23,359
is help them understand their roles and also help them

1368
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,159
see and fit into different roles that are more comfortable

1369
01:19:26,199 --> 01:19:29,399
for everyone, where we don't have to have this disconnection

1370
01:19:30,199 --> 01:19:34,840
between especially as adults, don't have to have this kind

1371
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,680
of like the dad is the dad, and he's he's

1372
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:40,359
in charge, and whatever he says goes like that kind

1373
01:19:40,399 --> 01:19:42,600
of shit where you have to listen to Edward and

1374
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:44,199
you have to do what he says and all of

1375
01:19:44,239 --> 01:19:48,720
these different pieces everything revolves around him and really shifting

1376
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,520
that not necessarily to be where William is the spotlight,

1377
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:56,640
but certainly where it's more fucking equal, because I feel

1378
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:58,840
like the mom also doesn't in a lot of ways,

1379
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:00,680
and I know, again we don't have lot of information

1380
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,079
about her, but I feel like in a lot of ways,

1381
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:06,239
the mom is also not having the relationship that she

1382
01:20:06,319 --> 01:20:08,920
wants to have with William because she has to be

1383
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,640
the peacekeeper, which means in some ways she is on

1384
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:12,880
the dad's side no matter what.

1385
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, she feels like she's so caught up in how

1386
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:19,399
in love she still is with Edward, which is great

1387
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:20,159
for her and Edward.

1388
01:20:20,359 --> 01:20:23,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that she is.

1389
01:20:24,039 --> 01:20:27,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're right, like not on not meeting William Moore

1390
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:28,439
where he's at either.

1391
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,760
Speaker 4: There's a reason he went to Paris, and that is

1392
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:36,720
probably a significant part of it. That he could not

1393
01:20:37,279 --> 01:20:39,800
ever correct the dynamic and split them.

1394
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:45,239
Speaker 1: Can feel validated, Yeah, absolutely absolutely, even though he was

1395
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:47,439
the ones with his mom all the time. Yeah, and

1396
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:49,239
his dad was the one that was leaving, which probably

1397
01:20:49,279 --> 01:20:50,880
also felt like a betrayal.

1398
01:20:51,359 --> 01:20:53,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost certainly.

1399
01:20:54,199 --> 01:20:56,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, So that's what I would want to do.

1400
01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:58,680
That would be my treatment for the family.

1401
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,199
Speaker 4: Sounds like a very sound treatment plan that would probably

1402
01:21:02,279 --> 01:21:06,680
produced some change and hopefully produce some space for William

1403
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:09,359
and be like, so y'all never saw me at all.

1404
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. A lot of this shit is unconscious. Yeah,

1405
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:16,720
this role stuff isn't like you wake up today and

1406
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:18,359
say I'm going to be the peacekeeper in the family.

1407
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 3: This is like I have.

1408
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,239
Speaker 5: Had to be the go between for these two numbskulls

1409
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,800
my whole friggin' adult life. Yep, And I and because

1410
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:32,239
I can't be in a different role, I also can't

1411
01:21:32,239 --> 01:21:34,760
have the kinds of relationships that I want to have

1412
01:21:35,399 --> 01:21:37,439
because I'm so caught up in the role that I

1413
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,000
have to play in order to keep them.

1414
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:48,399
Speaker 4: Okay, and I am over that shit. Yeah, I'll read

1415
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,960
letters from my mom and correspond with her, but emotional

1416
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:56,359
closeness between him and any of them is quite clearly absent.

1417
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:58,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1418
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:06,600
Speaker 4: And he's I deliberately sought someone foreign to him, different culture,

1419
01:22:07,399 --> 01:22:12,920
different accent, different place. None of it sounds all single

1420
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:21,560
thing lock Alabama. Yeah, Oh damn, I did it again. Okay,

1421
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:26,520
apparently I'm going next. I would pick William. I think

1422
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,960
William would be someone who's going to need quite a

1423
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:35,079
bit of therapy time, as we've all pretty well established,

1424
01:22:35,119 --> 01:22:36,800
and I think we've covered the reasons why, so I'll

1425
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,319
talk more about what I think he would need to do,

1426
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,800
because I think William's going to struggle a lot with grief,

1427
01:22:46,199 --> 01:22:47,760
and I think what he's going to need to be

1428
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:52,760
able to do is work through the resentment he has

1429
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:56,279
towards his father for not being who he wanted him

1430
01:22:56,279 --> 01:22:59,600
to be. I think this idea, I have kind of

1431
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:03,000
a spot a little bit through this podcast is quite

1432
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:05,960
empathic of Edward, and I think William would need to

1433
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:09,159
be able to move through his resentment to get to

1434
01:23:09,199 --> 01:23:12,600
the point I'm at with it of seeing there's always

1435
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:16,800
a why, always, and it's always a big why or

1436
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:20,319
small one, but there's always one. And sometimes when people

1437
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:24,800
have a persistent, pervasive block on being able to see

1438
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:27,920
their own shit, it means that whatever they're showing you

1439
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:33,119
is a cover to what they went through that they

1440
01:23:33,159 --> 01:23:36,520
don't want seen, and they no longer want to define them.

1441
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:41,239
People will really firmly seek to cover up their weaknesses,

1442
01:23:41,359 --> 01:23:44,920
especially from their children, when they don't want something that

1443
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,520
wants to find them to continue doing so. The problem

1444
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:53,199
for William has likely been that his dad's persona is

1445
01:23:53,279 --> 01:23:56,600
so big and needs to take up so much air

1446
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:00,520
that he probably wasn't seen, and he found v in

1447
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:03,000
when other kids are asking him.

1448
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,119
Speaker 2: Did your dad really do that? Is that all really true?

1449
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,800
Speaker 4: His value came from telling the truth and telling the

1450
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,680
real story, which becomes so pervasive in him that it

1451
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:16,079
becomes his career and he may experience an existential crisis

1452
01:24:16,119 --> 01:24:18,840
not only when his own child is born and realizing

1453
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,399
that thing you were talking about Hannah, but on a

1454
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:26,319
more positive side of no parent wants their child to

1455
01:24:26,399 --> 01:24:30,079
see them as anything other than the hero. I want

1456
01:24:30,119 --> 01:24:33,000
to come home and have my kid throw her arms

1457
01:24:33,079 --> 01:24:37,840
up and say Daddy's home, and not see what a

1458
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:40,119
roiling piece of shit I have been at some points

1459
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:43,960
in my life, just like everyone else, has done some

1460
01:24:44,159 --> 01:24:48,560
shitty things, and my kid doesn't need to know that

1461
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,439
truth yet, that every one of us is the villain

1462
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:54,279
in somebody's story. She doesn't need to know that version

1463
01:24:54,319 --> 01:24:56,279
of me because I killed that when she was born.

1464
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,880
At least the best I could go still fucked up.

1465
01:25:00,039 --> 01:25:03,840
I'm a human, right Her mom and I get into arguments.

1466
01:25:04,239 --> 01:25:05,880
I get in arguments with her. The best side of

1467
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,159
me does not always show up. But the version I

1468
01:25:08,159 --> 01:25:11,720
would like her to see as often as possible is

1469
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,239
the version of me that's a superhero to her. While

1470
01:25:14,239 --> 01:25:17,119
she's little enough that that's what she needs when she

1471
01:25:17,159 --> 01:25:19,199
gets older, I need to adapt that and change that

1472
01:25:19,319 --> 01:25:21,880
and show her more of the things that William didn't

1473
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:26,039
get right. William didn't get someone to show him at

1474
01:25:26,079 --> 01:25:31,439
the vulnerable ages he needed. Nobody is a fucking superhero.

1475
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:37,319
Every one of us fucks up and teenagers need that

1476
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:42,720
guidance from parents that help them see mistakes are made

1477
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,439
and we need to learn from them. So for William,

1478
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:51,600
helping him work through the resentment, the anger, the points

1479
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:57,439
where he probably will blame his dad for his mistakes

1480
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:01,760
because dad didn't teach him what not to do, at

1481
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:05,399
least not directly enough that he understood it at the

1482
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:10,000
time he needed to understand it in the way he

1483
01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:11,239
needed to understand it.

1484
01:26:12,079 --> 01:26:13,239
Speaker 2: I think what he makes.

1485
01:26:13,079 --> 01:26:16,199
Speaker 4: Peace with through his big Fish story and then seeing

1486
01:26:16,239 --> 01:26:19,079
how he tells stories of his dad to his kid

1487
01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:23,119
that his kid then tells and he doesn't correct them,

1488
01:26:23,279 --> 01:26:27,159
is he's sorted through some of that resentment, but it's

1489
01:26:27,239 --> 01:26:33,920
still there, and he's going to need to work on

1490
01:26:34,359 --> 01:26:38,319
making sure that isn't the only story he tells. That

1491
01:26:38,359 --> 01:26:41,159
maybe a story he needs to tell later when his

1492
01:26:41,279 --> 01:26:43,920
kid is old enough to hear it. But while his

1493
01:26:44,039 --> 01:26:49,399
kid is little telling stories of his family, he needs

1494
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:51,760
to be able to sort his own shit enough that

1495
01:26:52,359 --> 01:26:54,159
he can tell his kid a story of his grandpa

1496
01:26:54,239 --> 01:26:57,399
that's a fun, light story that makes his son pow

1497
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,560
to be part of their family. Going to be able

1498
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:02,880
to do that if he's dripping with resentment and anger

1499
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:06,199
from what he didn't get, so being able to help

1500
01:27:06,279 --> 01:27:10,920
him process what he didn't get so he can make

1501
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:13,359
room for what he did, and that he can be

1502
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:19,800
mixed appreciative and upset at what he got and what

1503
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:23,039
he didn't get, and can hold space for both equally

1504
01:27:23,079 --> 01:27:27,319
without needing one to dominate the space. The same way

1505
01:27:27,359 --> 01:27:29,199
he saw his dad do his whole life, and I

1506
01:27:29,199 --> 01:27:32,039
think the messaging I would be working on with him

1507
01:27:32,119 --> 01:27:35,159
is understanding your dad did all those things for a

1508
01:27:35,199 --> 01:27:38,520
reason we need to not repeat. Because whatever things your

1509
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,159
dad did that he told stories about covering up, you're

1510
01:27:41,159 --> 01:27:43,920
telling the truth about other people's stories your whole life.

1511
01:27:44,199 --> 01:27:47,319
And part of the reason of that is because dad

1512
01:27:47,359 --> 01:27:49,479
did not tell you that truth, and we need to

1513
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,319
find a way to make peace with that. That that

1514
01:27:51,359 --> 01:27:54,239
became important to you saw the value without it being

1515
01:27:54,399 --> 01:28:01,560
a compulsion you have that's based on the obsession that

1516
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:03,319
I need to know the truth in order to be okay.

1517
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:05,960
I think you realized with telling that fish story of

1518
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:08,479
your dad, you don't have to know the truth to

1519
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:11,279
have heard the truth, to have been told the truth.

1520
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,199
Speaker 2: But we have to make space for our.

1521
01:28:14,079 --> 01:28:16,520
Speaker 4: Anger that we didn't get what we needed when we

1522
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,079
needed it before we can see that. So you have

1523
01:28:19,159 --> 01:28:25,600
to continually reprocess, recategorize, reform, britting you were talking about earlier.

1524
01:28:26,039 --> 01:28:30,800
You have to be able to emotionally digest things, but

1525
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,600
sometimes you have to assign a new emotion to it

1526
01:28:34,079 --> 01:28:36,840
to digest it in a different way. The value of

1527
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:40,039
therapist telling us things in different ways or thus that

1528
01:28:40,079 --> 01:28:43,000
was you, Hanna that said that, but one of you

1529
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:45,199
were talking about that. Some of the value of therapy

1530
01:28:45,279 --> 01:28:47,319
is that sometimes people can sit with you and tell

1531
01:28:47,359 --> 01:28:49,399
you a story in a different way. Then you hear

1532
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:52,319
it and it penetrates your armor and you can feel

1533
01:28:52,359 --> 01:28:54,920
a different way about it because it was reframed different.

1534
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:57,760
This needs to go through that same process so he

1535
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:58,159
can heal.

1536
01:28:59,239 --> 01:29:02,039
Speaker 6: So I think a term that I want to.

1537
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 1: A term I was hearing you not quite used, but

1538
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:08,199
I want to throw out there is dialectical thinking, like

1539
01:29:08,239 --> 01:29:11,800
that's a big part of that work with William Wright

1540
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:13,720
is and I've done that when I've worked with people

1541
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:18,000
that have had not great relationships with their parents, and

1542
01:29:18,239 --> 01:29:22,279
they kind of do that thing where honestly, sometimes they

1543
01:29:22,279 --> 01:29:24,359
go to the other end, which is they're so empathy,

1544
01:29:24,359 --> 01:29:26,960
they're trying to be so empathetic towards why their parent

1545
01:29:27,039 --> 01:29:29,680
did the things they did to them, that they're like

1546
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:31,039
negating their experience.

1547
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:33,159
Speaker 6: And so the dialectical thinking it.

1548
01:29:33,159 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 1: Allows you to be like, yeah, my dad maybe did

1549
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:40,760
the best he could and he still mistreated me, and

1550
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,760
he wasn't enough and he he hurt me, and how

1551
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:47,279
like you were saying, like, we get stuck in this

1552
01:29:47,399 --> 01:29:50,800
binary idea that one of those messages has to like

1553
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:53,720
dominate the narrative. So if I have empathy for my parent,

1554
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,560
then it negates my experience of them, or if I

1555
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:01,239
really articulator, if I really in more extreme cases, if

1556
01:30:01,239 --> 01:30:04,199
I identify my childhood experience with my parent as abuse,

1557
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:08,279
then I'm negating maybe the trauma they went through or

1558
01:30:08,319 --> 01:30:10,640
why they were so angry and abusive all the time.

1559
01:30:11,279 --> 01:30:13,279
And so a lot of that work that you're talking about,

1560
01:30:13,359 --> 01:30:17,239
Ben is like teaching people to think dialectically that two

1561
01:30:17,279 --> 01:30:19,439
things can multiple things can be true once, not just

1562
01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:21,439
two things, and multiple things can be true once. Your

1563
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:26,119
dad could have been a very likable person and he

1564
01:30:26,279 --> 01:30:28,920
wasn't good enough for like he wasn't what you needed.

1565
01:30:29,079 --> 01:30:32,199
Something me and Hannah talked about when Riffy watched the

1566
01:30:32,239 --> 01:30:38,239
movie together, is how part of that dialectical that William

1567
01:30:38,239 --> 01:30:40,680
needs drop his head around is this kind of tails

1568
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:43,359
into what I'm going to go into is how do

1569
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:45,720
I make peace with a parent that everyone liked so

1570
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:52,720
much that I didn't and the mind fuck of that alone.

1571
01:30:53,359 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 2: Yep, And I'm not.

1572
01:30:56,359 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 4: I would never describe myself as a DBT oriented therapist,

1573
01:31:01,319 --> 01:31:07,479
but dialectics is an ancient idea. It's a Greek word.

1574
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:12,119
Dialectical thinking is probably not language that I would default to,

1575
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:17,239
but it is an ancient idea that holds the idea

1576
01:31:17,359 --> 01:31:21,479
that all of our parts we form have experienced something,

1577
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:25,720
and each of them forms a perspective, and all of

1578
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:28,840
them are valid because they're all part of us, all

1579
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:33,960
encoded through our senses. So multiple viewpoints of the same

1580
01:31:34,039 --> 01:31:40,520
story can be true. Which one registers is going to

1581
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:43,920
be different depending on what we needed to learn from it.

1582
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:47,600
Speaker 1: And also, to practice dialectical thinking, all you really have

1583
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:51,319
to do is substitute and where you would put butt

1584
01:31:52,319 --> 01:31:55,840
when you're telling these stories to yourself to other people,

1585
01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:01,039
and it's a good habit to use anyone listening. I

1586
01:32:01,159 --> 01:32:02,880
used to work at a place where we were very

1587
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:06,680
into DBT, and so it was almost like a religion

1588
01:32:07,199 --> 01:32:09,319
that all of us clinicians who work there, we like

1589
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:12,720
we were almost like trained out of saying butt and

1590
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:16,319
saying and instead. And I will admit that it does,

1591
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:18,880
it has and it still does, like change the way

1592
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:22,600
I think about things. And how now when I do

1593
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:25,880
catch myself saying but, it almost feels like ooh, that's

1594
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:29,000
not healthy, you know, switch it to and and it does.

1595
01:32:29,079 --> 01:32:33,359
It's so interesting from like a seco linguistic perspective, how

1596
01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:37,880
that little shift in a three letter word can really

1597
01:32:38,039 --> 01:32:41,800
change the way that you think about something. Yep, it can,

1598
01:32:42,239 --> 01:32:43,960
and the way you communicate and are heard by other

1599
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,159
people too. Like a butt carries a lot of power

1600
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:49,800
with ourselves and with other people. And that power is

1601
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:54,520
like we're canceling out something and the and allows both

1602
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:57,680
things to exist. And it's such a tiny linguistic change

1603
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:01,000
that carries a lot of power. And to the point

1604
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,920
that my clients, God love them, they now will catch

1605
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:07,319
themselves saying butt in sessions with me and they go

1606
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:12,720
and and I'm like, good job, I'm training them all.

1607
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:14,560
Speaker 2: Well, this is also what you know.

1608
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:17,720
Speaker 4: Our dear friend, cognitive scientist doctor Jordan from i SU

1609
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:19,600
would say when we were on the panel with him

1610
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:22,800
about Ted last So he made the point to that

1611
01:33:23,399 --> 01:33:28,439
live audience, you should never say butt because of the

1612
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:35,439
psycholinguistics and kind of the inherent encoding we're all taught

1613
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:37,920
of don't shoot on yourself.

1614
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, like once you say but, you're kind of canceling

1615
01:33:42,199 --> 01:33:45,399
out whatever was said before the butt.

1616
01:33:45,399 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 4: Which means you're invalidating. Yeah, the validation you're providing and

1617
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:53,039
the person who's listening you is going to stop.

1618
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:54,039
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1619
01:33:54,319 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: Why I wanted you and Hannah to go before me

1620
01:33:57,159 --> 01:33:59,840
is because what I wanted to bring up is pretty supplemental.

1621
01:34:00,199 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 6: There isn't as we've talked about.

1622
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 1: It really only is two main characters, two fleshed out

1623
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:09,439
characters in this movie. And I figured, Hannah, you would

1624
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:11,439
do the family therapy part, and then I figured you

1625
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:14,119
Ben would want to do William. So what I wanted

1626
01:34:14,199 --> 01:34:17,159
to add was a book that I don't know if

1627
01:34:17,159 --> 01:34:21,000
it actually ever brought up on this podcast before, but

1628
01:34:21,079 --> 01:34:23,720
this is the first time I'm like formally bringing it up,

1629
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:26,920
which is a book called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature

1630
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:31,279
Parents by lendsy Gibson, and it is an easy read.

1631
01:34:31,399 --> 01:34:34,279
It's like one hundred some pages. It's not written academically,

1632
01:34:34,279 --> 01:34:36,840
which I really appreciate. So what I like about it

1633
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:39,840
is it's very much written by a working clinician, and

1634
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:42,960
a lot of it's like testimonials and like anecdotal stories

1635
01:34:43,359 --> 01:34:46,359
of her clients. But it's something that I think and

1636
01:34:47,279 --> 01:34:50,000
something that I think would be really helpful for someone

1637
01:34:50,079 --> 01:34:54,039
like William in that it kind of helps you figure

1638
01:34:54,039 --> 01:34:59,279
out how to engage with deal with a parent that

1639
01:34:59,399 --> 01:35:03,840
you can't compromise with, that you can't reach. And emotionally mature,

1640
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,199
I know, isn't the nicest term, and she does a

1641
01:35:07,199 --> 01:35:10,039
good job in the book of articulating how emotionally immature

1642
01:35:10,079 --> 01:35:12,640
isn't just like parents who are abusive are aggressive, but

1643
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:14,800
also in the way that we've been talking about Edward,

1644
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:17,960
which is someone who is kind of stunted. They have

1645
01:35:18,039 --> 01:35:20,199
their own coping stuff that they get stuck in and

1646
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:22,960
you can't reach them, and sort of the main component

1647
01:35:23,039 --> 01:35:26,399
of whether you have an emotionally immature parent is how

1648
01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:29,800
lonely you feel, and how lonely you felt as a child,

1649
01:35:30,079 --> 01:35:33,119
and how lonely you might you may still feel, even

1650
01:35:33,159 --> 01:35:35,239
if you come from a family where everyone is quote

1651
01:35:35,319 --> 01:35:38,920
unquote close, and so for William kind of we're saying before, like,

1652
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:42,199
when you have a parent that's so well liked and

1653
01:35:42,279 --> 01:35:45,199
who probably does talk about you a lot and seems

1654
01:35:45,239 --> 01:35:48,279
to be a family person, why do I still feel

1655
01:35:48,279 --> 01:35:51,000
this way? I think this book could be able comfort

1656
01:35:51,039 --> 01:35:54,439
for William, putting into words his experience, so I would

1657
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:56,640
I also like about the book is it has a

1658
01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:02,000
lot of what actions you can take without holding your

1659
01:36:02,039 --> 01:36:05,039
breath for the parent to change. You are only in

1660
01:36:05,079 --> 01:36:08,239
control of yourself. You aren't in control of your parent.

1661
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:11,720
You can't make them change. You can try stuff. Maybe

1662
01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:13,800
it would work, but it also could become a big

1663
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:15,399
mess and keep you stuck in a loop. But she

1664
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,239
talks a lot about how, like what are my boundaries?

1665
01:36:18,279 --> 01:36:20,560
What are my objectives? If I'm going to go see

1666
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:22,680
my parents and I know that my dad can bait

1667
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,159
me into a fight, maybe my goal is to not

1668
01:36:26,239 --> 01:36:29,479
get baited and to use coping skills instead, or to

1669
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:31,640
take a break, or to not drink or you know

1670
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:34,680
what I mean, Like, what's within my control? So that

1671
01:36:35,079 --> 01:36:38,279
if I'm going to decide to stay in this parent's life,

1672
01:36:38,359 --> 01:36:43,319
that it's as not unpleasant. What's the best it could be?

1673
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:45,880
Basically the best of a bad situation. I think that

1674
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:48,279
could be helpful for someone like William or anyone listening

1675
01:36:48,359 --> 01:36:51,600
who feels like seen by what we've been talking about is.

1676
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:57,479
I really liked how accessible the book was, how example

1677
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:00,479
forward the book is, and how it does talk a

1678
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:03,479
lot about recentering our control in this situation.

1679
01:37:04,239 --> 01:37:05,279
Speaker 6: What can you let go?

1680
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:09,520
Speaker 1: And not for your parents' benefit they might get the

1681
01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:12,720
benefit of that, but for your benefit. Why are we

1682
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:15,199
banging our head against a wall waiting for it to

1683
01:37:15,199 --> 01:37:15,800
be come adore?

1684
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:16,840
Speaker 6: It's not.

1685
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:19,119
Speaker 1: And if we still want to have these people in

1686
01:37:19,159 --> 01:37:22,359
our lives, how do we want to go about that

1687
01:37:22,399 --> 01:37:25,279
in a way where we're not like torturing ourselves and

1688
01:37:25,319 --> 01:37:27,119
also accepting that they're never going to be like the

1689
01:37:27,159 --> 01:37:31,479
fantasy that you have in your head about who they

1690
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:34,720
could be or their potential or whatever. So I just

1691
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:36,960
want to throw that book out there as like supplemental reading.

1692
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:39,680
I'll say it one more time. It's Adult Children of

1693
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:44,600
Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsey Gibson, and you can find

1694
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:48,119
it everywhere. I think we'll take one last break here

1695
01:37:48,159 --> 01:37:50,800
and be back with final thoughts. All right, So back

1696
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:54,319
with final thoughts. I can go first. I really like

1697
01:37:54,359 --> 01:37:56,159
this movie. I think this is the first time I've

1698
01:37:56,159 --> 01:37:58,560
watched in a long time. I think I watched when

1699
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:01,479
it first came out. It's not my favorite Tim Burton movie,

1700
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:05,680
just because I like his more like whimsical, high concept movies.

1701
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:09,800
And I think I also was so like about Edward

1702
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:13,199
the first time I watched it too, So watching it

1703
01:38:13,199 --> 01:38:16,399
again for the second time, like years later, I was

1704
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:18,800
really curious how I would feel. And I think because

1705
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:21,640
we're watching it for the podcast, I had my therapist

1706
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:24,920
hat on, and so I think it made it didn't

1707
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:28,119
help how I felt. Also already felt about Edward, kind

1708
01:38:28,119 --> 01:38:30,680
of viewing him from the viewpoint as like a child therapist.

1709
01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:33,640
But I would say, like, it's a very beautiful movie.

1710
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,119
It's a little emotionally manipulative, and that I wanted to

1711
01:38:36,119 --> 01:38:39,359
cry at the end, even though I wasn't really invested

1712
01:38:39,359 --> 01:38:43,079
in Edward. But I think it's like a classic movie

1713
01:38:43,079 --> 01:38:44,880
if you like stuff like that, if you like Tim Burton.

1714
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:46,399
I don't know if I'll ever seek it out again,

1715
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:48,800
but it's definitely something visually like maybe I would keep

1716
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:50,720
it on the background while I was doing other stuff

1717
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,319
around the house, so that's how I feel about Big Fish.

1718
01:38:54,399 --> 01:38:56,199
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll go next. I guess because I think this

1719
01:38:56,239 --> 01:38:57,680
is a Hannah pick, and I think Hannah loves it.

1720
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:59,520
Watching this movie again, it's the first time I watched

1721
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:02,600
it in a why I definitely have watched it many times.

1722
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:03,800
Speaker 2: I love this film.

1723
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:07,039
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of value in it about

1724
01:39:07,159 --> 01:39:13,279
understanding family, understanding self, and realizing that resenting people for

1725
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:16,199
who they can't be can cause you to miss who

1726
01:39:16,199 --> 01:39:22,560
they are and were, and realizing that people don't often

1727
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:26,600
tell the truth anyway. Expecting them to always tell you

1728
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:30,119
the exact truth of who they are, what their stories are,

1729
01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:33,720
who they've ben can really invalidate and wall you off

1730
01:39:33,760 --> 01:39:36,439
from having genuine connections with people. And sometimes just letting

1731
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:38,399
people have their thing and be their story song as

1732
01:39:38,439 --> 01:39:44,079
it doesn't intrude on your validity is important. If their

1733
01:39:44,119 --> 01:39:47,640
stories always have to make you less than that's crappy,

1734
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:52,359
and if everything becomes about them all the time, they

1735
01:39:52,399 --> 01:39:53,720
need to take a look in the mirror and work

1736
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:57,239
on themselves. But this movie does do a beautiful job

1737
01:39:57,239 --> 01:40:00,760
of realizing or helping kind of tell a story of

1738
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:02,560
parents are whole people.

1739
01:40:03,079 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 2: They had a whole life, just.

1740
01:40:05,399 --> 01:40:08,479
Speaker 4: Like anybody else in your life, and creating space for

1741
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:11,079
them to tell you which version of themself has produced

1742
01:40:11,119 --> 01:40:15,359
the successful adult version that you know. But letting people

1743
01:40:15,439 --> 01:40:16,920
kind of have their own tall tales and be a

1744
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:18,640
legend in their own life is a gift you can give,

1745
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:20,600
and this movie kind of reminds you of that. But

1746
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:24,840
it also has enough masterful storytelling that Tim Burton sneaks

1747
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:26,680
just a few things that I didn't catch until this

1748
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,479
time watching of like there's just a few things that

1749
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:33,039
tell the kernel of truth through shots, And I think

1750
01:40:33,079 --> 01:40:37,920
it's a beautiful movie that deserves to be watched more

1751
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:41,359
than once throughout someone's life, because as we age and change,

1752
01:40:41,359 --> 01:40:42,880
we're going to encounter this with our own parents.

1753
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:45,479
Speaker 2: So I think it's a beautiful way to kind of

1754
01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:46,000
examine that.

1755
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:49,239
Speaker 5: I've loved this movie since the first time I saw it.

1756
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:55,399
I was also in the process of grieving people myself,

1757
01:40:56,439 --> 01:41:00,439
and so being able to and experience and seeing the

1758
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:02,800
kind of end of life experience that you have with

1759
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:09,119
someone who is on hospice, and so being able to

1760
01:41:09,279 --> 01:41:15,199
see William tell that story at the end really gave

1761
01:41:15,319 --> 01:41:20,399
me hope that I did the best that I could

1762
01:41:21,079 --> 01:41:24,479
with these people that I loved in my life. And

1763
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:26,600
so I love this movie and I and I haven't

1764
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,600
actually I haven't actually watched it in a long time.

1765
01:41:29,159 --> 01:41:31,880
I don't really know why I always cry at the end.

1766
01:41:32,159 --> 01:41:34,159
I've never watched this movie and I cried at the end.

1767
01:41:34,319 --> 01:41:38,560
And also I love Ewan McGregor, so that always helps.

1768
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:41,319
Speaker 3: But I just I really, I just really.

1769
01:41:41,159 --> 01:41:44,239
Speaker 5: Enjoyed this movie and I always have and I think

1770
01:41:44,479 --> 01:41:46,119
and I didn't even notice the things that Ben are

1771
01:41:46,119 --> 01:41:48,279
talking about. So now I'm definitely gonna watch it again

1772
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:50,199
and try and find the things that Ben are talking

1773
01:41:50,239 --> 01:41:52,720
about because I've seen that movie way too many fucking

1774
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:55,880
times and not have noticed any of that shit. I mean,

1775
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,239
like I probably know the fucking dialogue to this film.

1776
01:41:58,239 --> 01:42:02,000
Like I watched this film or on repeat for maybe

1777
01:42:02,039 --> 01:42:05,359
like three years. So yeah, so I think it's something.

1778
01:42:06,239 --> 01:42:08,399
It's just kind of a beautiful film. And I think

1779
01:42:08,439 --> 01:42:11,760
that no matter where you are, what your experiences are,

1780
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:16,319
that you'll enjoy kind of seeing the fantastical parts of

1781
01:42:16,359 --> 01:42:18,399
the story because it's really entertaining.

1782
01:42:19,159 --> 01:42:22,079
Speaker 4: It is it is really entertaining, It's beautiful, there's so

1783
01:42:22,159 --> 01:42:25,000
much in it. Curious to hear what you think of

1784
01:42:25,039 --> 01:42:27,920
it when you like rewatch it and catch those little things,

1785
01:42:28,039 --> 01:42:31,399
because they really caught me when I was rewatching just

1786
01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:35,800
some parts today, I was like, I see it. Yeah,

1787
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:40,119
the gold colonels, I see him, and it's fantastical. I

1788
01:42:40,119 --> 01:42:43,720
also realized as you're telling that, realizing my own dad

1789
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:47,439
tells to has had some tall tales. That there's one

1790
01:42:47,479 --> 01:42:49,800
I wanted to share real quick as there's a time

1791
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:55,760
where my brother's teacher had called my parents and like,

1792
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:58,119
you know, he's having some trouble with some of the

1793
01:42:58,159 --> 01:43:02,039
other kids because he's talked about times his dad ate

1794
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:08,840
cuddlefish and snake and tried some other weird things. And

1795
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:11,079
my mom had to sit down to the teacher and

1796
01:43:11,079 --> 01:43:13,520
be like, yeah, no, that's real.

1797
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:14,319
Speaker 2: He did that.

1798
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:19,159
Speaker 4: His father's in the Navy and once a year goes

1799
01:43:19,239 --> 01:43:25,279
to Korea where they have strange foods to Americans. But

1800
01:43:25,359 --> 01:43:29,640
he definitely has done all those things. That's all true,

1801
01:43:30,239 --> 01:43:38,960
and the teachers like, oh so. Realizing sometimes the tall

1802
01:43:39,039 --> 01:43:41,279
tales of life can also be true and things that

1803
01:43:41,399 --> 01:43:45,319
make people like interesting about their family. I think it's

1804
01:43:45,319 --> 01:43:48,279
important that people see that and reconsider the narratives, like

1805
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:51,680
you know, the world's a big place. People's parents have

1806
01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:54,199
done a lot of things. Maybe don't immediately think kids

1807
01:43:54,239 --> 01:43:56,640
are lying to tell a fantastical story. Maybe they're just

1808
01:43:56,720 --> 01:43:59,840
telling when they were told and maybe that just me

1809
01:44:01,119 --> 01:44:03,680
it was mostly true.

1810
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:07,920
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, we will wrap up here as always.

1811
01:44:08,079 --> 01:44:10,479
If you are wanting to find us and tell us

1812
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:13,560
the weird stories your parents told you growing up, you

1813
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:16,800
can email us at popcorn psychologygmail dot com. You can

1814
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:23,279
also find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok at popcorn Psychology,

1815
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:26,079
and like I said earlier, if you want to support us,

1816
01:44:26,159 --> 01:44:29,840
you can monetarily by being a Patreon patron or by

1817
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:32,560
buying our merchantee public. You can also support us for

1818
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,199
free by leaving us a rating interview wherever you listen

1819
01:44:35,239 --> 01:44:38,960
to podcasts. We always appreciate it, and everybody try to

1820
01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:43,159
go out there and like, find your big fish.