Speaker 1: What is up, fellows, Echo's I am Dan Valley coming
at you with my certified fantabulous got the message about
matching shirts for this podcast co host mister Grant Hughes,
we are on too our Western Conference off season grades.
People have asked about him here they are. We already
did the Eastern Conference. If you go back, go back
check those out if you haven't already. But Grant, how
the heck? How the heck are you doing? As we
get into a betal this is like it's gonna be over,
Like everyone's waiting on these grades, Like for these heast
is done? What's about to be done?
Speaker 2: How are you feeling? I'm just happy to validate whatever
accusations are out there about you and I's group think.
By dressing the same way for a podcast, we've really
gone to the next level. Uh. Although like this, this
does really show how your lighting is different than mine
because we have the exact same shirt on UH and
yours looks darker green than mind does. And I think
we just you know, it's a lighting thing. Great in
any light, these these shirts look terrific. That's it's so weird.
Speaker 1: I feel like my lighting looks washed out on the
quality on this screen. I don't know what that's about,
So your yours just pop in for me a little
bit more than mine is popping. But the shirts look
fantastic regardless of if you want to purchase one. One
of the best ways to support the show right now,
head over to our website. That's in the links to
the podcast and YouTube description. I think we were sold
out of hats for a moment.
Speaker 2: I believe they might be back in stock.
Speaker 1: I do not know, but go cop stuff and help
support the show, and I will send you a magnet
and sometimes personalized things. There are at least a few
people who could attest to me trolling them or or
I thank everybody, but I definitely troll at least a
couple of people. So yeah, support the show that way,
subscribe the whole nine. We do need to get into
one last time, the criteria for the grades, because grant,
guess what happened, HM, who got mad that their team
got to see in the Eastern Conference. A C for
us is average, and we're grading teams relative to the
resources that are at their own disposable. So if we
give the Blazers an A plus, but we give the
Denver Nuggets an F minus minus. They're not being graded
on the same scale. They have different expectations. Those are
not the grades we're well actually might be grades for
one of those teas that's so far off, But let's
try to remember that when it comes to draft picks.
Grant had the right idea going back initially, like we are.
If we're grading them or weighing them heavily, it's because one,
we have a strong opinion on the pick, but we're
also trying to grade the level of difficulty. Were there
other options on the board that made sense not? Was
there just a no brainer pick in that moment? Did
I miss anything?
Speaker 2: What else do you have?
Speaker 1: You had something I had last time and I already
forgot what it was?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't remember. No, I just think I think
you got it. It's like the prongs are, we're staying
relative to the team's goals and expectations. If it's clear
what they're trying to do, we will grade them based
on how successfully or unsuccessfully they did the thing they're
trying to do, whether that's tear it down, build it up,
contend whatever, and the draft pick thing. I think the
even simpler now the more I think about the draft
pick thing is one. Yeah, like we definitely look at
or hope hopefully look at situations where it's like, well,
what other options were available that were really obvious insofar
as that's even possible at this early stage, but generally
for me, I'm just like kind of devaluing the draft
as part of my off season. Great, until we get
more information outside of like some extreme circumstances, you know, Like,
it's just it just can't matter that much. We can't
pretend to know a ton about how good these guys
are going to be. So if it's about the direction,
like oh, this pick doesn't fit with what you were
trying to do Team X, it should have been this guy,
then okay. But otherwise, like it's really hard to make
ironclad cases that oh, this was the wrong pick because
this other guy is definitely going to be better. Like
we come on, we know we know enough to know.
We don't know that.
Speaker 1: The draft picks they factor in more than we do regrades.
Like when we go back in a year and look
at this, like that's when the draft picks might come
more into play. Which is if you're mad and you
think that you're gonna be right, come back for the
regrades next year. And hey, maybe admit when you're wrong,
because we tend to admit when when we are wrong.
We were also grant and I have our super secret
master sheet of all the transactions, but I will have
them up on the screen for anyone watching on YouTube
of just like the meat and potatoes of the offseason.
I've had a short ennit because I won't do no
team got two slides in the West. The Knicks fucked
with us on the Eastern Conference. One there was no
team and it was actually I can't remember which team
it was, but I'm impressed that I kept it down
to one side.
Speaker 2: So shout out to me Philly. Last time, I thought, well,
you for sure it was gonna be too.
Speaker 1: I said this, Philly did a good job of like
doing a lot but making it succynct where it wasn't
these eighty draft second round draft trade where he had
a track like they had, ohsoigadaro, but then they didn't.
So shout out to Philly, but also shout out to
me for keeping I'll let you know which team it
is because I already forgot it, But shout out to
me for keeping one of these teams to one slide.
That's what we're here for. Grant, are you ready to
get started?
Speaker 2: Let's do it all right, we start with the Dallas Mavericks.
I'm gonna go a little out of order here, just
to make it harder than it needs to be, trying
to work big to small here. So the two biggest
acquisitions are are Naji Marshall and Clay Thompson. Marshall got
three years and twenty seven million, which was just a
part of the tax of the non tax payermid level.
We'll talk about it, but that feels like a great deal.
Klay Thompson got three years fifty million in assign and
trade out going in that exchange, basically, to keep it simple,
was Josh Green, a twenty five second and a twenty
thirty one second Charlotte obviously landing Josh Green, Spencer Dinwiddie
got a one year minimum deal. They traded Tim Hardaway
Junior a twenty twenty five second and a twenty twenty
eight second to the Pistons. Maybe there's actually there's a
third twenty twenty eight second there. The first was via
the heat the second one was coming via the Clippers
or Charlotte it's the least favorable of those. For Quentin Grimes,
that's not nothing traded at Aelhuckport, the number fifty eight
selection in to the Knicks for Melvin AGENSA number fifty
one signed Brandon Williams and Kessler Edwards to two ways.
Did I miss anything there? Oh? This is You've got
a note here. I think it's worth mentioning. Nico Harrison
got and Jason Kidd both got multi year contract extensions.
So we're not going to factor those into the grades
necessarily because they were so long ago. June for Harrison
and May for Kid.
Speaker 1: Respect playing in June.
Speaker 2: Wasn't the off season for them? That true? Yeah, not
the case for everybody, but Dallas was still actively in
the season at that point. Maybe I'll just start there
kind of like the stability, kind of like the idea
of like, hey, we were in the finals and if
not for what we might look back on as a
historically great Celtics team could have won a title. So
that that's the lens I'm kind of looking at this
offseason through, which is just how good Dallas was last year.
And I don't know how you feel, but I kind
of think they got better unless you really love Derek
Jones Junior and think he's irreplaceable. Pretty hard act to
pull off when you were as good as Dallas was
last year and somewhat limited in your resources, and you
still make you know, between Marshall and Thompson, at least
one of those guys, maybe both, they're gonna be huge
rotation slash starting level contributors. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm trying to think of how you
would be because I've seen some people have been skeptical
of like will the MAVs defense sustain? And I get
the concerns with like if you were to point polls
in the offseason, it's they are taking a risk with
Klay Thompson, who should fit like a glove on offense.
But do you have the bodies And by that, I
mean it's PJ Washington and one of the bigs and
Gaffer Lively to defend at a high level when Klay,
Luca and Kyrie Irving are out on the floor. And
if Clay's coming under the guys that not only is
he going to start, but like that's probably gonna be
your closing setup. That would open up some questions. But
I looked at just the optionality the roster has elsewhere
and it's Dante Exham's still on the team and like
he could, Like people have talked about a lot, well,
they're they're losing Derek Jones Junior's rim, pressure and athleticism.
That'll be a big thing. The MAVs played faster last year.
They did a great job of doing that, especially when
they're two stars were on the court. So yeah, they'll
miss that element, but like Dante exam can handle the
smaller advantage creators. And by the way, I think what
might actually be one of the sneakiest moves of the
off season is getting Quenton Grimes, who for the first
two years of his career was doing that and draining
threes and whatever happened last year, pecking order issues in
New York, he dealt with injuries. I don't necessarily even know,
like what went wrong for him with the Pistons before
he ends up getting injured, and the fact that they
gave him up in that deal, it makes you wonder, Okay,
is there's something weird here? But I feel like that
has the potential to make a huge addition, not to
where oh he's playing more than nausea Marshall or or
Klay Thompson. But like, if you're worried about the MAVs
defense during dual star minutes, maybe Quentin Grimes becomes a
stretch because do you want him defending wing positions if
it comes to that, or can you maybe you don't
even need to worry about that because you have Luca
that you can kind of move around positionally there. So
I said this about the MAVs, if we had to
boil it down to this, they improved their offense without
i think torpedoing the defense or even really conceding much
of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right, And that really does just
come down to Marshall and how closely he can approximate
what Derek Jones Junior did on defense. And you know,
it is a little you alluded to this. I'll just
put a finer point on it. It's a little concerning
that it's possible PJ. Washington will be like your only
plus wing defender on the floor in minutes that really
matter a lot. That's assuming you go Kyrie, Klay, Luca
and then whatever center's out there. PJ Washington, like PJ
Washington has to guard the best two or three I guess,
and then if you also have which you know, if
the MAVs play the teams they intend to play deep
in the playoffs, like there will be times where it's
going to be a struggle I think defensively, And now
this isn't part of the grade, but banking on Derek
Lively to just get better as a defender and be
the type of guy that just because he's out there,
your defense is fine, Like that's maybe, I mean, it's
it's asking a lot for him to get to that level,
but I really I think I generally agree Thompson is
like potentially a massive addition offensively against certain lineups, especially
in the playoffs, where it's just you just cannot treat
him like teams treated Jones in Washington, like it's a
total failure if he doesn't have maximum attention off the
ball as a shooter. And so like you think you
could make the case they got better on both ends,
and just like to say otherwise is to say that
Derek Jones Junior was just totally irreplaceable because.
Speaker 1: Which is just by the way, he didn't really like
turn on the defensive Jets until after they kind of
remade the roster and it was apparent that, Okay, they
were asking him to do less in a sense because
you have PG Washington in addition to a different another
big aside from Derek Lively to hold their own. And
by the way, neither of us had mentioned this part
of the reason. They might just be better on both ends.
And so when it comes down to that, it's they
clearly upgraded the offense. If you have what is your defense,
it's because you're fucking massive. Yeah, this is huge. No, Like,
you get the lineups pretty easily where lucas the shortest
player on the court if you wanted.
Speaker 2: To, right, yeah, I mean, and that look, Kyrie's gonna
miss time probably, and so you really may see those
bigger lineups like a fair amount. And then the defense
should just if you're that big, it's it's pretty hard
to be like below average defensively with all that size,
Like you're gonna have blowby issues on the perimeter. But
like if everybody on the back line is enormous or
at least has long arm, Like, yeah, I think that's
a great point. This has to be this has to
be a high grade, right, Like, I don't know, are
we going into the A range for this. That's the
other thing we should have mentioned is we're kind of
gonna try to establish a consensus grade and like talk
each other up or down depending on how far apart
we are.
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to see if, like what did like
even getting Spencer, didn't we he at the one year minimum?
Is I sometimes wonder, Okay, are there too many clubs
in jason kids bag now to where we're not even
gonna get to see jayde and Hardy I guess until
the Western Conference finals again, when you just like pluck
them out of the bag and throw them out there.
But like just between Dante Exim and Quenton Grimes and
Spencer Dinwiddie, like that whole like secondary rotation? Do you
have too many options there? But that's that's such a
great problem to have. I don't what would be the
well I wanted to ask you this very quickly, brutally
honest answer.
Speaker 2: You're coaching the MAVs.
Speaker 1: What is your You don't know the matchup, but you're
trying to play off proof of matchup proofs yourselves. Who
are you close? Who are you closing with?
Speaker 2: Well? I mean this is just a Marshall or Clay question. Right,
because I think, well, unless is the center a question
to you, No, it's I mean it's it should be Lively.
I agree, So it's Kyrie and Luca and Lively. That's one, two, three.
I think Washington probably has to be out there. That's four.
So I guess I'm making it a Luke, a Clay
or a Marshall question.
Speaker 1: No, No, I think I think that's what it comes
down to. But I do think there might be the
potential to, like Futzon fiddle with the Washington spot if
he's not making because he went through those like up
and downs from three specifically, And so could you consider
closing with not Marshall and Clay or even like again,
depending on the matchup, like Naji Marshall and Quentin Grimes,
to me, would make a lot of sense. This is fine,
I'm talking up all this Quentin Grimes stuff. He's gonna
end up probably not even playing.
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, I think most nights I would
probably go with Clay over Marshall if I'm just conceding
the other four spots, just because of the way that
a shooter like that might force defenses to really pick
their poison. But like, how do we guard Luca because
it you can only send so many bodies at him,
and he's just gonna find the right guys. And if
you have both Kyrie and Clay open as shooters, like man,
I don't know what you do as a defense, whereas
Marshall might get the Derek Jones treatment, like he might
be someone you leave, and that's for an opponent, that
trade off is worth like, well, he's a better defender
than Clay, Like, well, just you know what I mean,
Like if you're looking for a weak link, I'm only
thinking about I realized as I say this, the Mavericks
in like deep playoff series, because that's just I think
how we should think of him. But I think Marshall
is the guy that an opponent would be like, Okay,
he's out there. Now you go at Clay on the
other end, obviously, So that's the weak link there, I think.
I guess. I think I'm just prioritizing the the way
that if Clay is still what he was offensively or
anything close to it in this new role, like I
don't know how you guard this team. That's kind of
where I would lean.
Speaker 1: What have you made of though? And I'm actually surprised
that so many MAVs fans are not believe this, but
sort of like a trumpeted this up, like Clay is
like that third guy who can do stuff off the
dribble is a sentiment I don't feel entirely comfortable with.
And I think that the lineups that he predominantly is
going to be playing in, you're not going to need
him to. But I guess if you get into kind
of the one star combinations where Kyrie's off the floor
of Luca's off the court, that might be a question.
But I didn't like when I look at this team,
that's still something I would have a question of. Is
it is it Jayden Hardy? Is it just defaulting the spencer?
Speaker 2: Do me?
Speaker 1: I did he? Honestly, I didn't even factor Klay Thompson
into just like the list of potential solves.
Speaker 2: I think if you view Klay Thompson as someone that
is going to be a third creator, like for himself
or for anyone else, you did not watch him last year,
Like I just think when he dribbled the ball, I
don't you know if you have an expected value on
each like touch or possession, it plummeted every time he dribbled,
I just his shot selection gets worse. If he's dribbling.
He's just can't get by anybody. So I think, as
someone like it's hard to think of someone who will
benefit more if he accepts it from a reduced role
that just asks him to do the things he's still
great at, because there are an increasing number of things
that he's not good at anymore. And I think if
you from the MAVs perspective, like, there are risks for
sure in signing him, even though the numbers not huge,
but like the upside is you get him to just
do the things he's still special at and and one
of those is not being creator that's not in the
bag anymore.
Speaker 1: He could maybe make like some of those really like
quick pass, but I just didn't feel like he was
a solve for that.
Speaker 2: This is all to say, though you're gonna have to
I think there.
Speaker 1: Are maybe two teams in the league that could argue
they had as good over better off seasons than the Mass.
One of them is Philly. We already talked about them.
One of them we haven't talked about yet. So you're
gonna need to talk me down from an A plus
is the grade that I had.
Speaker 2: Oh, I was just gonna go A because I don't
haven't really thought about the A plus range.
Speaker 1: What did they do wrong?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Nothing nothing.
Speaker 1: I guess you could quiple over the price of Clay,
like for per year, But I'm kind of just like
he turned out more like the mass got him for
less than the Lakers were offering him. Like that's even
and just and you already kind of said this. But
the idea that they made it to the NBA Finals,
and the question out of that was are they gonna
be able to finagle the books to keep Derek Jones junior?
And they ended up like positioning themselves to get Clay
Naji Marshall and Quentin Grimes. That's wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think I'm I. I think I got
to go there with you. I mean I would have
gone A, but I just that's because I don't really
think too hard about the A plus. Yeah, getting getting Yeah,
every move is at least positive. It's just a question
of how positive it is. And I think when you
view their whole offseason through the lens of just this
was a team in the finals, and how rare it
is for a team in the finals to get like
pretty consequentially better, at least on paper. That's pretty hard,
so let's give him an A plus. Let's start it
out with a bang here nice.
Speaker 1: Next team up is my Houston Rockets. Very easy transaction
sheet from them, which is why if you're watching on screen,
Jalen Green would like to know why he hasn't gotten
an extension yet. Neither is Alper and Shangun. Those are
the notes, but the moves drafted read Shepherd at number three.
Anyone who listened to this podcast knows that we think
he's gonna be one of the worst NBA players of
all time. Traded number forty four, which became pel Larson
for AJ Griffin actually liked that move. Picked up Jeff
Green's eight million dollar team option, picked up Jay Shawn
Tates seven point six million dollar team option. Re signed
to Aaron Holiday for two years and nine point six million.
It's the bi annual exception. The team option is on
year two, and that's really just just it.
Speaker 2: No other note.
Speaker 1: No, Steven Adams, who is yet to play a game
for them, will be extensional as well as October first.
I would guess that they do not extend him because
they're clearly have this twenty twenty five cap space plan.
They also made that I did not include it on screen,
so that's a shame on me here. But that transaction
with the Brooklyn Nets where they basically shorted heavily shorted
the future of the Phoenix Sun. So what they ended
up doing was they got a twenty twenty five first rounder.
It's gonna be the lesser of the Rockets, Thunder or
Suns pick. They got the Suns twenty twenty seven first,
they got a twenty twenty nine first which is the
more favorable of the Suns and MAVs. And then they
got a twenty twenty nine swap, which will be the
less favorable of the Suns or MAVs. So the Rockets
got all that from the Nets in extreme for giving
the Nets back there twenty twenty five first round pick,
which was a swap, and then they're twenty twenty six
first round pick, which, of course, as we already noted,
that opened the door for Brooklyn to rebuild. I want
to save that for last week because I think that
that is that tying into the non extensions that we
just know we're not going to see, is sort of
the crux of their offseason. Is there anything else that
just sort of stands out? Like you, I think anyone
who hasn't listened to the podcast before might think we're actually
low on Reed Shepherd. I think that was a home
run pick by them. So was there anything about the
offseason before we get into like the picks of it all?
Speaker 2: No, I think, yeah, Reach Shepherd. Obviously we both agree
that was the best player on the board there. That
might have been true if we were talking about the
number one pick. So but again, this is all about
that trade that sort of swapped out equity in the
nets for equity in the suns, and then we can
talk about the extent I may maybe maybe this will
be short, maybe it won't, depend on your opinion. I
am fully on board with not extending Green or Sengoon early.
I just like I've been saying that all off season.
I'm just kind of more and more of the mind
that you need to make these guys play these things
out before you commit. You still have all this leverage.
I don't know why I'm suddenly I feel like I'm
on the side of big business against labor or something.
But like, I just think you have the restrictive free
agency is a is a real weapon like as an
just from a front offices perspective, and you should use it,
Like I just I don't understand the rush to Now
if you think Shenguon is just like this is going
to be our offensive folkrum for the next seven to
ten years, then okay, yeah, throw the money out of
my guess, but like, well, why you can still do
it later. You can still do it later, So I
just think that's a positive. Not extending those guys to
me makes their grade better in my mind. But the
picks are really where the rubber meets the road on this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that deal I think is it's probably easy. Well,
it's easier to justify for them because in theory they
got more stuff. It's like you traded control of two
first for control of four basically three of which I think,
like just are gonna belong to the Suns in some form,
So like or I guess at least two?
Speaker 2: No, is it three? Well, it's at least go ahead.
I was just gonna ask, like the twenty twenty five
first from Brooklyn has the potent like are there were
there protections on that or was that an unprotected it
was unprotected. So the Rockets might have just traded the
first pick in the draft, like, right, that's that that
might be what happened, Like, so that gives me real
pause if it ends up being a S Bailey Cooper
flag whatever, And that would have assumed that Brooklyn was
the worst team in the league or you know, bad
enough to have a fourteen percent chance of that pick
being number one, Like that's that's scary. That's that you
could regret that, right, Like we have to at least
factor like getting four first round assets for two it's like, okay,
no brainer. But if one of those might have been
Cooper flag, then this is at least, you know, obviously,
that's why we're doing it. Worth a discussion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think people will point out and rightfully
so that would the Nets be as entrenched in the
Cooper flags. Maybe not if this trade doesn't happen. My
answer is maybe not. But I also think that the
Knicks offered enough to where the mchal Bridges trade was
happening anyway. I also just believe that like what was
the path to Brooklyn getting better this coming season? Like
they just didn't like the Donovan Mitchell card that everyone
was kind of clinging on to that came off the
board once he extended with with Cleveland. So there there.
My point would be, there is a scenario where you
could have given up and it doesn't We don't have
to view it through the lens of Cooper flag. Like
you could have just given up a top four pick
that was always going to be a top four pick.
Speaker 2: Or at least the top six seven, like, because how
good could Brooklyn get? Really like the X what do
you think the expected value of that? The average value
of that pick would have been, Like even if you
say Bridges is still on the team and like Brooklyn's
trying to add talent via trade or something at the
det like, it's still a top ten pick probably.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say top eight, yeah, at least. And
now the counterpoint to all of that is the Rockets
just have so many guys like there, I'm worried that
Reed Shepherd isn't gonna play enough next year, and so
now you want to throw another whatever top prospect into
the equation. And so I like the gamble of I
liked the trade. I just thought that people were kind
of running it off like, oh, like yeah, the you
don't even need to consider what the NETS pick would
have been, because it's just entirely different, and it's okay,
it's possible, but I also think there's that separate outcome
on the table as well. But now you've kicked this
down the road and you very specifically tether your future
to like one team's draft in the Phoenix Suns, and
that's not a bad idea because you start to look
at it and it's they're not gonna be okay, Like, okay,
maybe the twenty twenty seven first like is sort of
somewhere in the middle of like, if you what you
just did with the Nets, you now might have the
ability to do with the Suns in a year or two.
And does that get you? Devin Booker, So I kind
of like that scaling it ahead forward. And it's just
because the NETS pick specifically twousyd and twenty five, like
that swop was gonna have to convey this year, Like
now you have these other additional goodies to put in,
like trade packages, because you kept yourself lean in terms
of you don't have a ton of guaranteed money on
the books with if you decline Fred van Vliet's team option,
like you get back to sixty plus million dollars in
cap space for you prepaired to renounce Albert and Shangoun
and Jail and Green or even just one of them. Like,
so you have a like cap flexibility, but you have
even more trade flexibility because you just have more assets
to throw into deals. And they might be a team
where maybe it happens this season, because like that's why
you pick up Jeff Green's team option. That's why I mean,
Jay Shaante you pick up that team option. Anyway, So
it's like you have all these movable there's no bad
deal on there, but there's just not a bad deal
on their books right now. So I like everything they did,
and I also think just based off what happened last season,
you shouldn't. You didn't need to do anything seismic, Like
let's let this marinate. Let's see if to eason you
get healthy. Let's see what I'm and Thompson looks like
for a full year. Can Jalen Green start off the season,
you know, before March first, in a good fashion? And
so they need more information on this roster because all
these a ton of these guys developed. Mary Smith Junior
had a hell of a year. No one talks about
them anymore because they just have so many dudes. And
so this is a season to where my whole thing
is progress isn't linear, and I could see them being worse.
They might have more talent, or their talent on balance
should be better. I could see them being worse because
the West is harder and they're trying to gain more
information on players. But they are just built to maneuver,
like in all these different ways, and there's value in that.
And I think, you know, if anyone wanted them to
be more aggressive this summer, like I kind of understand it,
but like who it wasn't going to happen via free agencies,
Like what is the trade target that you really wish
that they were going? After that was mentioned, there isn't.
Speaker 2: No Yeah they Yeah, I think they have enough guys.
They have enough like cracks at you know, maybe two
of you just go down the list Green, Shanngoon, Smith, Thompson,
now Shepherd, Like they only need a couple of those
guys to become all star level players and like some
of them are close as it is, so I think
kind of it's not quite like keeping the powder dry
or like not met I think the general principle of like,
let's see what these guys have makes sense to me.
It just comes down to I think the way I
am now thinking about the trade with Brooklyn is you
probably gave up the highest, probably gave up the highest
ceiling asset, but you really did set your like average
expected return higher because you just have more first round
equity than you did before. And I guess maybe the
grade needs to come down to, like how much you
think Houston should have been thinking like grand slam versus like,
let's hit three doubles off the wall like type of thing,
you know what I mean, Like, cause that twenty five,
then we're just circling back. If that twenty five first
from Brooklyn winds up being the number one Pickland, man,
you know that, then that's a conversation for the regrade.
But as it stands now, I do think there's a
lot of logic in let's just have more first round
picks to go with all of our young prospects, and
we'll just let this sort of happen and see and
see what we have in a year, in two years,
and like, really we're down through the rest of the
decade because of how far some of those Phoenix picks
go out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, I think it's kind of just like in
a vacuum. Would you rather have control of the Sun's
first round picks in twenty seven and twenty nine or
control of the Nets picks with McHale bridges in twenty
five and twenty six. I think that's the question Houston
asked itself, And they got other stuff on top top
of that, by the way, like two other controlled first
And I think it's reasonable to say, like I would
rather have there's probably more of a like there's the
Nets like have more of an obvious floor. But like
you were mentioning a Grand Slam, I guess Cooper Flag
is the Grand Slam. But that's a fourteen percent chance.
Let's say the Nets have a bottom four record of
getting him, whereas let's view it through the lens of
Devin Booker or the next disgruntled superstar. There's a higher
percentage chance now that you're getting that player, who, by
the way, immediately fits better with your timeline because they're
already established.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I think this has to be another
grade in the A range, don't you. I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Honestly didn't know what to do because I think that
there needs to be like I can't give them an
A plus just because like there's still the uncertainty of
what those nets picks turn into. And if you're gonna say, well,
that's what the phoenix picture before, like there's uncertainty to
those two, Like that's the entire point of this. So like,
is it an a is it an A minus? You
have to take this one because you went with me
on Dallas.
Speaker 2: My thoughts A minus. I think if we were gonna,
if we were gonna go against our own advice and
just overrate the draft picking getting Shepherd at three might
make it worth a flat A, but a minus just
because one we can't go crazy with the pick. Two.
I think we agree that the trade with Brooklyn is
a net positive, but like there's some downside possibility. And
then I think we both agree that the not extending
Shangoon or Green smart, but like also maybe you piss
them off. There's like just enough like low low probability
downside to all of those things that we like that
I feel like a minus reflects.
Speaker 1: That I can't It's funny that I just can't bring
myself to see the downside and the restricted free agency stuff. Now,
if you don't think restricted free agency exists should exist,
that's a different discussion the fact that it does. I
think the Rockets are playing it. Watch them extend them
like immediately. I know you record, but the Rockets are
playing it perfectly. If if I had to quibble over
why go at the A minus, I'm just worried like
you brought back Aaron Holiday, which again is totally fine.
I want to make that clear, but I want to
see you get to a pathway where like re Jeppard's
playing a ton of minutes and gets to work on
the ball, or ditto for Aman Thompson who showed he
could do a bunch off the ball, and it's do you.
I don't think emy Udoka will fall into this trap.
But is it just like, are you gonna feel pressure
because you have between twelve and fifteen guys on the
roster that need NBA minutes? Are you gonna feel pressure
to like not evenly distribute, but give playing time to everyone?
And I would argue that it's like they don't need
to make a consolidation trade now, but there's also just
they have too many guys and they didn't necessarily clear
like Jeff Green whatever, like you want that a salary filler,
you don't need to play him. And again it's not
super political when it comes to Aaron Holliday, but it's
just like you have even jay Sean Tait is what
is his spot long term on this roster, but that's
someone who should probably play.
Speaker 2: So I mean he's not on here because I didn't
have anything to do with the off season, But Tarry
Easton's gonna need minutes like that's and then who's that
coming at the expensive? I think I think ultimately that
camp factor too, because then are we gonna just like
give guys give teams worst grades because they managed to
accumulate too many good players, Like that feels a little bit,
it feels a little bit wrong.
Speaker 1: I don't know why are we going with an A minus.
Speaker 2: I think just because of the minor downsides, Like I said,
of all three of the moves that we generally like, the.
Speaker 1: Only the downside. There is no downside with Jellen Green,
just because this cap hold is so massive anyway that
it's sort of like it maybe there's the downside with
Shane Ku where it's like, well it took you guys
way too long to realize how good I am, and
now you won't pay me. And I'm still just not
sold that they view him as the folk rum of
the future. I'm not either too fantastic and he might
be an All Star next year. But so I guess
that's fair. Like it feels like if there is any
downside to what they did, it would be Is there
any weird relations with Albert Check? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Maybe? And look that's I mean, it's still an A minus.
Don't don't.
Speaker 1: Someone's gonna be mad. And if there's a rock Stan
out there that's man in the commentsation, please please be
mad that your team got in got an A minus.
I beg you all right?
Speaker 2: That takes us to the Memphis Grizzlies and I will.
I think they're mine. I'll take them. I'm high on
the Grizzlies. So drafted Zach Eatie at number nine. Looked
phenomenal in Summer League for one game and then didn't
play anymore, but still maybe the starter here. Drafted Jalen
Wells at number thirty nine, traded fifty seven, which is
Uluric Kam chief for cam Spencer, signed a two way
with Spencer. Traded Zire Williams. The Zire Williams era is
over again. No longer can we go into each season
saying what if he pops?
Speaker 1: I know you didn't listen to the Grizzlies one yet,
But Keith Parris said his nicest thing he ever said
about Zion Williams on and he said they gave up
someone who might be an NBA player in a couple
of years. Like they just had the nicest thing he's
ever said to us about ZAIONI.
Speaker 2: I remember asking Keith about are meant maybe mentioned Nxire
Williams last offseason look ahead and he was like already
then he was like trying to talk me down. So
that turned out to be right. So traded Williams and
Dallas Is twenty thirty second to the Nets for Mamadi Diakite,
who was with Lukenard one year nine point three million
after having his fourteen point eight million dollar team option declined.
So saved a little bit there and sent with incentives
I can get up to ten point seven. Signed Jay
Huff to a two way some big and unfortunate later
breaking news, Gigi Jackson underwent right foot surgery. He was
injured in the off season. How long is he out.
Is it going to be the season or is it
going to be like just a chunk of it. I
don't think it's going to be the season.
Speaker 1: But a broken foot that needs surgery, I think that
he's gonna.
Speaker 2: The dreaded fifth metatarsal. I don't know if they said
if that's a Jones fracture or not, but that used
to always be like, oh my god, that makes it worse.
Last thing to note here, they still have the mid
level exception, which now can be used as a trade
exception effectively, and the bi annual project and they're projected
to two point six million below the tax. That seems deliberate.
So Dan, what are we doing with the Grizzlies here
who used to be a fifty win team and then
everything fell apart last year? And I don't know, are
they better now than they were like going into let's
say last offseason. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1: So they're better by well, I mean they're better in
the sense of now Gg Jackson's injury, but to have
this information on Vince Williams Junior specifically, so you're better
in that sense, and you should be better because you're healthier.
But this is a team and if you can see
on screen, we have the no taxes me up there.
To just be sitting on the end, I know, this
isn't a team that traditionally spends it. To just be
sitting on a non tax player mid level when your
roster is far from perfect is kind of disgusting. And
so I get like wanting to see this core marinate
or what it could look like when they're healthy, Like,
we don't even have enough information on Marcus Smart and
what can he do if you actually want him? They
wanted him to be there, Dylan Brooks and Tias Jones,
and he just wasn't like he scored at it like
an absurd clip inside the arc, but like he was
committing turnovers left and right, even more so than he
was in Boston. Now, is that a function of all
the absences? Was he overstretched?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: He could be. That's what they're trying to find out.
So I kind of get not doing anything hyper aggressive.
Speaker 2: Here's my thing.
Speaker 1: You still clearly needed like wings, and now that issue
has been exacerbated because hey, injuries happened. You know this
as well as any team based off just last season alone,
but in general, and so if we're grading the off
season relatives of their resources. Okay, cool, you drafted your
starter at number nine. You're a team that has like
immediate aspirations. How much will Zachie he play? What does
he look like as a rookie? How much can you
win while stomaching his development? I think we can consider
that neutral. And I'm higher on Eedie than I was,
just based off the few summer leaf flashes that we saw.
But like the resources at their disposal, this could have
been a Naji Marshall team. This could have been a
Simony von Techio team. This could have been like this
could have been like so many different players would have
fit here, and like the biggest kind of thing you
did was rework the Luke Canard deal to ensure that
you could and then moves out your Williams to being
sure you could remain under the tax. Why is this?
What is good? My question to you now, after my log?
What is good about this offseason?
Speaker 2: I think it, Well, you have to do some gymnastics
I think to get there. One is the Edy pick
might just be the correct pick, and he might be
a starter for you, and that's really hard to find
in a rookie and like you know, also Edie comes
with massive potential downsides, like he might not be able
to move in space. He might you know that just
it just may not work. But I think I think
if you're looking for positives, that's one possibility. The harder
one to frame in a positive way is not using
the mid level, because you might say, well, okay, so
maybe that's just something they're going to use down the road,
like when there are more options, or you can find
a trade candidate like just the two names you mentioned
Fontechio and Marshall. Like, I don't know that you can
reasonably expect to use the mid level like trade exception
quote unquote to get guys better than either of those two.
Speaker 1: So like you do, by the way, you're gonna have
to give stuff up.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's not just we get they like, it's
something has to go the other way. It could be
like kind of a middling I don't know, piece of consideration.
But it's it's really hard to frame that as a positive.
I mean, I don't think I don't think I would.
I think you're a little more I'm projecting like worked
up about or like it bothers you more of the
mid level thing than it bothers me because you do
still you can still turn that into something, but that's
something is not going to be better than Naugy Marshall
or I don't I don't think it's likely or Kayla Martin, do.
Speaker 1: You want me to continue down the list? And the
other thing is why would we trust them to use
it when they're so close to the tax? So then
if they do that, it's not just about sending out
maybe pick equity, it's which of their players are they
going to trade? Is it they view Lukenard? Is that
kind of expiring contract? So, by the way, here would
be the other thing. Let's just say that the tax,
it's fine that they don't want to go into it,
even though the way they're built, by the way, I
think the Grizzlies is gonna be really good too. They
could win fifty plus games again, but the offseason they
didn't act like a team that has those expectations. But
let's just say, let me step outside of my temper
tantrum about them not using their non tax payer level.
You could have just not brought back lu Canard and
then tried like, would you rather have Luke Canard let's
just say, would you rather have Luke Canard or spent
the non tax payer mid level on Mystery Player X?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it probably the latter.
Speaker 1: And what was lu Canard's leverage when we saw Gary
Trenton Junior Malik Beasley get a combined nine million dollars
to get as more than them combined, what was his
leverage that that's a great point.
Speaker 2: I think. So if you're if you're going above a C,
which I don't think we are, you just have to
believe that ed is like this guy is going to
be a plus starter right away.
Speaker 1: And you have the reason I'm not going to an
F is because I think even if he does some
things or if it takes him a while, just like
the space that he generates on screens is just going
to remain there. I think the rebounding will probably translate.
But the other thing is, I know we're concerned about
him in space, but having Edie unlocked probably the best
version of Jared Jackson Junior on defense that there could
possibly be because of his rebounding it if you need
to bring him up, like Jared Jackson Junior is one
of the best helpers around the basket in the league
right now. So I think that is as close to
an above average move that they had. This again, it's
we don't want to I don't want to wait draft
picks too much because then why wouldn't we have given
the Rockets an A plus for Reed Shepherd?
Speaker 2: Right, So, I I do think there is a at
least the the mL A bit of it is. You
could charitably frame it as incomplete, like it's not totally
the tax. The proximity of the tax makes it unlikely
unless some other stuff happens, but it could still be something.
And look, they're not the only team that didn't spend
the MLA. There was more of those that felt like
this offseason than in a long time. I'm leaning like
D plus because I think there is upside in both
of those even though it's not likely. It's still like
it's I don't know, pausible. I just mixed up plausible
and possible and made it plausible.
Speaker 1: So we need to I think our middle ground needs
to be like a D or D minus because they
get an F from me, Okay, I mean, by the way,
they had to use an asset just to get off
Zaya Williams. They just give him a twenty thirty second
like that's not that's and that was, by the way,
that was a Zion Williams. No, getting him is not
part of the grade. But like you moved up to
get him in the draft. Now you had to use
an asset to get him off, Like this is just
this team is so if anything, I hope most Grizzlies
fans like kind of understand, like I'm being so hard
on them because they're they can be so good and
it's like this is just if I was a fan,
I would be outraging. So if I'm not gonna you know,
we're not gonna quibble about every team not using the
non tax pyramid level because every team is not as
good as the Grizzlies.
Speaker 2: Good point. Yeah, no, I'll go I'll go D minus.
Then I think that's that's that's a good way to
frame it. And like, man, once for a team this good,
Like when's the last time Memphis had an objectively oh
great offseason, because it doesn't it feels like, you know,
what was the flow chart of like I'm sure Keith
you guys talked about or maybe it was last year,
just like the okay, here are the assets they had,
and then here's what those turned into. And it's like,
is there a leak somewhere? Like, how did how did
how did one turn into the other? Did they just disappear?
Because they have not managed much transactionally very well like
over the last say five years, and yet they're still
really good and have upside because their best players are
still young enough to get better.
Speaker 1: I am waiting for someone to tell us that Cam
Spencer is going to be a better version of Lukenard,
so this grade should be higher, And.
Speaker 2: Well, why is Lukenard back then?
Speaker 1: And by the way, you're so you're such a believer
in Cam Spencer that he's on a two way.
Speaker 2: Yeah right.
Speaker 1: Our next team is your New Orleans Pelicans. Damn, you
got me.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I normally welcome taking ownership of the Pelicans, and I'm
still incredibly high on them. But we got some questions.
But before we get to the questions, grant uh. They
drafted Eves mecI at number twenty one. They traded second
round swaps in twenty thirty and twenty three. He won
to Orlando for Antonio Reeves and number forty seven. He
then signed a three year, five point four million dollar
deal with the first two years guaranteed. They might know
something about Antonio Reeves that I've apparently not looked into.
That's like, you know, I know they're swaps, but still
picked up Hoost Alvarado's two million dollar team option, picked
up Jeremiah Robinson Earl's two point two million dollar team option.
The big one. They traded Dyson Daniels, Larry Nanz Junior,
e j Lddell Cody Zeller who it was a sign
and trade for him the Lakers twenty twenty five first,
and the less favorable of Milwaukee's and New Orleans is
twenty twenty seven first with top four for top four protection.
Excuse me for de Jontay Murray, Daniel Tice one year
minimum deal, Javonte Green one year minimum deal, Carlo Makovic
number fifty two pick in twenty twenty two signed for
three years five point four million. The first two are guaranteed. Uh.
That's like the stuff that they actually did were done.
But this team is just built around questions. They did
news by the way, they waived Matt Ryan. He's now
back on an exhibit nine. Naji Marshall. He went to
the MAVs L he talked about him and Jonna svalentchunaz
is in Washington three years, thirty million, but the two questions, Actually,
I guess it's really three. But what's going on with
Brandon Ingram. He's eligible for a four year, two hundred
and seven point nine million dollar extension. The Pelicans don't
want to pay him that much. It seems like he
wants to make that much. So now he's in trade rumors,
but the market is tep it at best. And also
trade Murphy is extension eligible. So those two things might
be intertwined. Is can you afford to pay both of them?
Probably not? How much are you willing to pay bi
if you have to pay Murphy? So those numbers matter.
And then the thing that's just connected to everything, what's
going on at the five. I would highly recommend to
people go check out the episode I did with Schmid
Duo of In the Know where I was pleasantly surprised
to hear him say this, but just based off the
Javonte Green signing. And then the current setup is like
Thepelicans are just planning to play small and so they
can do stuff with Herb Jones and Deavonte Green where
they're defending bigs. As Schmid pointed out, like brandon Ingram
has done stuff like that in the past. It will
depend on matchups. But is brandon Ingram gonna be here? Uh? Grant,
I don't like this offseason they did so much like
they acquired to Jeante Murray, which is a big deal,
and yet their off season still feels so unfinished.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not gonna incomplete on this one, but I
mean there's a case to be made that you could.
So I want to ask you do you think because
I think it's fair to say that having brandon Ingram
in the current position they are in with him, which
is potentially as an expiring contract that you cannot trade
because nobody wants to be the team that either rents
him for a tiny amount of time or has to
pay him what he wants. Is that of this offseason demerit?
Or is it like more you know how we used
to treat Toronto situation like or does it go back farther?
Speaker 1: Why is it a demerit? I would argue that they're
handling the brandon Ingram situation perfectly.
Speaker 2: Great counter question, I agree, I'm not paying Brandon Ingram
what he wants if I'm New Orleans. So in that sense, yeah,
it's it's their great would be worse. I think if
they gave him that deal, don't you think, don't you
at least you could make the case like Zion and.
Speaker 1: Ingram pairing was complicated enough, and now you've added to
Jeon dea Murray into the equation, and that to me,
the Dejontay Murray deal. I like Larry n I like
Tyson Dyson Daniels, but that's a decided the above average
move to me.
Speaker 2: So I guess I guess what I'm asking is is, well,
I guess maybe the rhetorical question I'm asking is, wouldn't
it have been better if they had traded Brandon Ingram
at last year's deadline or even before that, than to
be in the current position they're in with him now?
And do we consider that at all for this offseason grade?
Speaker 1: So I can't get there just because if this is
what the market is for him now in the offseason,
when teams are more flexible, what would it have been
in the middle of the year. And I think what's
really looming over Brandon was still a hell of a player.
He's probably tough to fit in a larger context of
the team. But if you go back to his first
season in New Orleans and look at that shot profile
compared to where he's at, and now like that player
might be in there somewhere. The bigger thing to me
would just be, do you demerit them for complicating and
already complicated fit with Zion by adding to Jonta Murray.
And I don't think you do, because I think de
Jentay Mary's gonna end up he's a better ball handler.
I trust his if you don't, even if you want
to say they're about even his pastors, I'd probably disagree.
But let's say're about even his passers. Does Jontay Murray
more than Brandon Ingram? And I've said this so many
times in the pod, there's just not like a two
man dynamic between Zion and Brandon Ingram. De Jontay Murray
should invite more creative usage with Zion off the ball,
and so I'm still fine with that trade. I don't
know what to do with the brandon Ingram of it all,
because this really seems like I guess what I'm getting at,
like it's more of an issue if teams don't want
to pay him, rather than we think brandon Ingram sucks.
Speaker 2: Right, No, that totally I agree, Like I brandon Ingram's
in a tough spot because like some of this he
seems to have done to himself, like whatever happened with
Team USA two summers ago was not a great look.
And then I don't it just the fit doesn't work.
That's not necessarily his fault, although he could change his
shot profile to your point. Yeah, so I don't know.
The just the brandon Ingram situation is such a big
part of like what there is to talk about with
with the Pelicans that like, I feel like we have
to weigh that somehow, but I don't really know what
you do with it. It's easier to say, well, it's
the grade has to be, it has to trend down
because of the center situation, and like that just you
can't go into this season. We love we love the
idea of them playing small, but like the defense just
can only be so good if if you're not having
We don't neither of us love Valentiunis, but like great
rebounder at least like limit teams to one shot like that.
Speaker 1: The defensive rebounding rate when he was off the floor
last year just plummeted.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a problem, right, And we spent a
hell of a lot of time last year talking about,
oh it was the three point defense smoking mirrors, like
that whole thing. What if that reverts the normal and
you're now giving up offensive rebounds left and right, like
not having a clear cut starting center is you know,
is just like that's a problem for a team that
projects to be like really good at almost everything else
you'd want him to be good at. That's such a hole.
Speaker 1: And the other thing too, is And if grizly fans
are still listening, another team that didn't use the bi
annual or the non tax PAYERMD level and like they
didn't even need that to keep Naji Marshall, who they
just had bird rights on. He's just gone. That's another
good positional rebounder out the door, by the way, So
that's a huge demerit. I love Davontae Green. I think
that signing is like a plus plus plus plus if
he's healthy. But as it stands right now, Grant, this
is actually something I had to write about. I came
up with They're not predictions, but I overreacted to every
team's offseason like one overreaction, and I penciled in, like
Javonte Green's gonna have to play fifteen hundred plus minutes
for this team because if you want to play small
like we're thinking they are, like, you need guys like
him and Herb Jones who are so schooled it guarding
up and handling some of the lower like man stuff.
Like that's honestly, just to let Naji Marshall leave. You
didn't get any conversation for Naji Marshall. That's a who
I mean, that's an F minus move, Like just letting
Naji Marshall go because you're concerned about the tax, which
they're currently inside two million dollars of the tax. I
believe about one five to one point six around that number.
So like, I don't know how to square that with
this because I think everything they've done, like it's weird
because we're very much penalizing them for stuff that they
didn't do. But I also think that that's fair in
this scenario because look at the confluence of everything we know,
Trammer people get an extension that's gonna be Is it
a team friendly? One is it market value able to
se where the number comes in. But like the brandon
Ingram situation, like not resolving that letting it float into
the season isn't great, but it's also the right call.
So I won't ding them for that. But the center rotation,
the not keeping Naji Marshall but being so just tax
conscious for a team that wants to compete for something special.
But then again, I like the Jaj. I don't honestly
my grade for them. Go ahead, I honestly don't know
where it's like this is this just a C C
minus Austin don't I don't know where to land. It's
that I think to say, is it is even a
D or D plus too strong? When you're looking at
the center, like if you just view it through the
lens of a Marshall gone for nothing and you don't
have to call Valanchoe, it's gone. It's more so like
look at the center rotation as of.
Speaker 2: Right now, I think to give them above a flat sea,
you would have to argue that the Murray trade brings
more positive value to the grade, not just talking about
the grade than the lack of a center and the
Naji Marshall exit like knocks the grade down. Maybe that's true,
but I don't think we're both like I don't think
either of us are over the moon about Oh my god,
Murray was the missing piece and this is a perfect fit.
It's like, no, you got like a like a higher
end starter for you know, like not a small out
like you gave up. We like Dyson Daniels, you know,
two first round picks like that's I think Murray makes
them better, but I don't. I'm leaning C minus, I
guess is where I'm going because I don't know that
that's such a home run move to two teams in
a row of baseball analogies. I don't know what's happening
it that it offsets the Marshall thing and the lack
of the starting center. Just it feels like those two
things matter more in the negative than the Murray trade
matters towards the positive.
Speaker 1: And I also think, but I think I'm gonna end
up at a C minus too, And what they also
did with the Murray trade, I really do think that
was probably like a B plus a minus move, but
I tend to be higher on like think about the
Jeanta Murray now as sort of more of a chaos
agent on defense because you have the buildings.
Speaker 2: Like he used to, then we I reevaluate my stance
on it for.
Speaker 1: Sure, and so he should be able to And so
like that I'm super high on. But like what they
also did with that trade is like they got rid
of their best mid end salary matching tools. Where Dyson
Daniel's making like six million whatever, Larry NaN's junior in
the basically close to a figure range, and now it's
your primary salar matching tools are blockbuster sized in brand
Ingram Mercy J McCollum, or they make nothing in Jordan Hawkins,
or they're Herb Jones who you're not trading. And yeah,
so that's something that's like weird a situation to be
in and maybe makes acquiring a center independent of moving
Angram or CJ. McCollum that much harder. You can say,
we'll just move Jordan Hawkins for Darron Sharper Walker Kessler.
Are the Nets or Jazz doing that? I mean, like
maybe the Nets would do that, But so, I that's hard.
But the other thing too is just like Zion Williams,
I don't know Williamson, Sorry, I don't know who needs
to hear this, but he's dealt with some injuries in
the past, and so if your whole like, how are
you playing small without him? Right? If Zion Williamson needs
to miss time, like now we're now it's okay, Well,
like now Daniel, Tye and maybe Mesi and Mocka is
like those guys need to play minutes, It's like that's
really because you like, how small are you gonna play?
Because Zion's like this massive body still, So if he's
not on the floor, I'm assuming that's when you're gonna
have to go to the Tye, Carlow or Mesi experimentation.
Because if it's not him in the middle, who is
a Jeremiah Robinson earl, then I get like, that's like,
that's even wildly uncomfortable. So I think C minus is right,
and I'm I'm gonna say this now it might even
be too generous.
Speaker 2: As you were talking, I was kind of feeling some
D plus vibes a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's tough because I love the Murray move and the
Javonte Green move, but it's like it doesn't offset some
of this, and if we're not and also if we're
not going to if we're actually thinking that they handle
the brandon Ingram situation properly, the way to critique him
on that would be they should have moved him at
the peak of his value. But when was the peak
of his value? That really kind of hard to discern.
Speaker 2: I think too, just if we're gonna we knocked the
Grizzlies for, you know, being tax averse with the team
that could win fifty plus, I think we should probably
apply the same criticism to the Pelicans, right, like they
just you can't be I don't know, pinching pennies or whatever.
I don't know, don't doesn't that factor in a little
bit for you too, where it's like, really, we're going
to be this cost conscious when we're this.
Speaker 1: Goozing Naji Marshall just for nothing, because you won't even
like commit to being below the like just being a
little bit inside the tax So I just we're going
D plus D plus.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's well, again conceding we think the Pelicans are
going to be good, and we like almost all their players,
but it's.
Speaker 1: Just it's like a D plus that has they have
more because we know the Grizzlies are basically done. This
is a D plus that has the potential to be
raised a bunch like maybe they make a good Ingram trade.
Maybe they addressed that. Honestly, if I just told you
they turned around and traded for day Ron Sharp. How
much does this does this grade change? It's like they're
still having still mcclum, but it's like now they're probably
like C C plus range.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it wouldn't be hard. They have some upward
mobility for sure.
Speaker 1: Our next team is grant they are well, I would
like that. Oh no, they're yours, San Anti.
Speaker 2: Deal with it all right. So the San Antonio Spurs,
they drafted Sefon Castle at number four. They had number eight,
which became Rob Dillingham, but they traded that pick to
the Minnesota Timberwolds for a twenty thirty swap with top
one protection and a twenty thirty one first rounder. Just
a sweet piece of business, right. The drafted Harrison Ingram
at number forty eight, traded number thirty five Johnny Furfey
for number thirty six one Nunias and cash traded DeVante
Graham and the New Orleans Pelicans twenty twenty five second
to Charlotte signed Chris Paul one year ten point five
million traded Raikwan Gray, which was number fifty nine and
twenty twenty one. He's on a two way for Harrison
Barnes and a twenty thirty one first round squat from
Sacramento that was part of the Demardros and sign and
trade another sweaking bulls. Hey, we're not talking about the bulls.
We're just talking about the Spurs horning in on incredible trades,
willing to take on some money for lottery tickets. Respect
it signed Sondra Mamiska. Oh, I almost got it on
the first try, Mamu Kelshvili. When you're at the minimum.
Speaker 1: Time, wait, can we just pause? That was just I
know it took you two tries. I just call him
Mamu now because my tongue gets twisted too much.
Speaker 2: I kind of like pride myself on being able to
pronounce hard names. But I really got over my skis
on that one. I went too quickly.
Speaker 1: Can you say Archie Yakino ten times fast?
Speaker 2: I do like what he had a cool nickname. Then
I now can't remember cool good content. Grant uh I
guarantee Jillian Shane Fanny's twenty twenty four twenty five salary
signed David Duke Junior and Harrison Ingram the two ways
uh oh, much to our chagrin. Dominic Barlow gone, yeah, yeah,
means unsigned, he's got to be one of the best
guys that's not signed to a deal.
Speaker 1: Fucking we well, I mean that's that's like really like
damn it with fav it's a rough crew, but still
means like, why is that like someone who can shoot
has scored efficiently in the ARC. I know there's defensive concerns,
but by the way, for this team specifically, I know
we're not like I don't love the draft pick in
the sense of I know what Stephan Castle is supposed
to be defensively, but like, could we just get actual
shooting around Victor wimberin Yama for a chance? I mean,
Harrison Barnes, Okay, that's a plus. CP three is not
high volume enough to be considered a plus. Now you
have steph Castle, Jeremy Sohan, Malachi Brandham, Blake Wesley in
the same rotation, maybe all these guys that can't really shoot,
and so it's okay, Harrison Barnes, Julian Champenny and then
more Victor wimen Yama off the dribble threes enough to
sustain you. And by the way, I like, this is
Johnny Furfey. They dumped him thea that would have been
a great fit for this team based off some of
their needs. And so I I like the Spurs offseason overall,
but I'm like, could we get some like a shooting
infusion on this roster at some point?
Speaker 2: I mean, is it? I think it tells a little
bit about like sometimes my brain is still in twenty
twelve or something when I'm like, well, but the Spurs
liked Wan nuniaz In cash better, so clearly they know
something nobody else does. And Johnny Furfrey's not gonna fan out.
I don't know, Like that was my still that's still
my knee jerk reaction, even though that kind of thinking
has like, well, it's not been true of the Spurs
for almost ten.
Speaker 1: Years, right they it's still mine too. It's not as
nearly as scary as it is with the Thunder to
where it's like when they trade, like it's like, oh,
I like that guy, and it's like the Thunder him
like he's probably gonna suck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've taken on the Mantle. Okay, so this is
still a really good offseason, even if we're not sure
about the Castle fit, even if we don't love the
lack of shooting, just because the way that they capitalize
on Minnesota's like not desperations too strong, but Minnesota recognizing like,
we got one more shot probably at getting someone into
our salary structure that could actually play. Getting all that,
getting that you know, basically two firsts or you know,
one swap and one out right for number eight, which
like again in a draft that nobody loves, that's huge.
And then the the Harrison Barnes in a twenty thirty
one swap is like, that's just that's such good value,
Like they just the Spurs had no business being involved
in that, and they just get in there and get
the best asset in the deal.
Speaker 1: And by waiting like out like that because I mean,
look at Charlotte, who's linked to this team because they
took on Devonte Graham, they could would you rather have DeVante?
Would they wait? So you have New Orleans' twenty twenty
five second and Josh Green and then you got two
but Reggie Jackson, like would you rather have had? And
Barnes and that pick swap or would you rather have
Devonte Graham waving him that twenty twenty five second from
New Orleans and Josh Green like, that's a fair question.
But the Spurs waiting out the market that ended up
benefiting them. That was a stroke of like genius.
Speaker 2: That's one of those moves where you're like, oh, maybe
the Spurs do still have it because they're just getting
in on deals that they shouldn't. Like where's everybody else
on this? You know? I get it, like not Everyone's
willing to take on Harrison Barnes' contract for pick that
far out, but like, I don't know, And I mean
the other main major thing to discuss is the Chris
Paul acquisition. I like it. I think if you're gonna
it gives you this opportunity to see, like, well, what
does Wemby look like as a pick and roll spam
role guy? Like that could be fun and you know
that's how Chris Paul's gonna play. So I like the
upside on that one too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean we've everyone decided this ad nauseum.
They're like a plus five point two points per one
hundred posessions when Wemby plays with Trey Jones last year.
That is now the standard for basically, let's say at
least like forty to forty eight minutes a game because
you have Chris Paul. Yeah, and there's a chance that,
just like you mention it, if he can become more
of a play finisher than having to be a play
initiator or starter a lot of the time wills catch
and shoot three point percentage come up? Is this someone
I'm gonna ask you, Grant? Is there a scenario where
his job now is so much not so much easier,
but more streamlined on offense than he just averages thirty
points per game?
Speaker 2: Dan, you're asking the wrong guy about outlandish wmby He averaged.
Speaker 1: About twenty two in thirty minutes per game. Now, maybe
they still keep his minichen check, which that you know,
if he's only gonna play like thirty or thirty two,
he's probably not averaging thirty. But like the Spurs could
be involved in some games, that meant like they might
be a play in team. It's not outside the realm
of possibility.
Speaker 2: No, I think. I think what I'd say is I
would have picked him to be in like the mid
to high twenties regardless, but his shot quality is just
gonna be higher, like if you're just if you're swapping
in three like Rollman possessions or three pick and pop
possessions for some of the other really difficult like unassisted
stuff that he was having to do as rookie last year,
the true shooting is gonna be It just has to
be higher. Like I don't know what ceiling I would like,
is he gonna get above sixty? Is it gonna be
something ridiculous for a high volume score? I don't know,
but it's just it. It's the Paul acquisition just threads
the needle perfectly between Like we still want Wemby to
kind of like get to explore the space because god knows,
nobody has any idea like what his offensive role ultimately
is gonna be. But also let's like have this nice
safety blanket where if hey, he needs an easy one,
like who's who's better at just like probing and probing
and probing until you get somebody an easy one than
Chris Paul. Even now, like that's still just he's gonna
give Wemby if Wenby misses four shots in a row,
like guess what, Like Paul's gonna find him that fifth one,
and it's gonna be a clean look.
Speaker 1: I guess my one question that was do they to
bring it back to the spacing is do they have
like the proper space and to capitalize on wemby being
in those situations to where he's not almost forced or
compelled to stay on the perimeter.
Speaker 2: They're not only less able to do that this year
than I mean, like Gus, I guess if we're talking
about their offseason, like we should knock them for really,
I mean, maybe Barnes helps a little bit. He spent
a lot of time in the corner for this Kings
the last few years. Like that's something I want to
make clear.
Speaker 1: I'm not this is not part of my grade because
he wasn't on the board. But if you is there
any like would you have traded four and eight or
if you could have done number four and like the
swap or even just the twenty like one of those
things you got from Minnesota for Reed Shepherd, would you.
Speaker 2: Have done this a million? Of course?
Speaker 1: I think I agree with you. It's not part of
their grade. I'm just like, because it's to move up
one spot and a draft no one loved, but I
loved honestly, the only team, like realistically that I would
have liked him potentially better on than the Spurs is
the Rockets, but like the Spurs probably would have played
him more than the Rockets are going to.
Speaker 2: I think, so there you go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I I don't know where I land on
the off sheet. It's not an A, no, that's for sure.
I think it's probably like a B B plus range
maybe B plus.
Speaker 2: I think a B plus feels about right, because I mean, like,
what's the well Dominic Barlow, Yeah, Dominic Barlow. Everything else
brings the f up from giving up mon Dominic Barlow.
I mean you could nitpick on Castle, I guess, because
he has like a handful of pretty obvious flaws that
you don't want to see and someone you you think
might be like a lead guard or something close to
that starting guard. But I just the Paul thing that
getting all those picks from you know that they didn't
really have a right to it. B plus feels he
plus feels right to me, not an A. Though it's
not an A. I don't think will go be. We'll
go be.
Speaker 1: And it's it's so tough with the rookies because I
don't want, but like, this is a pick I feel
strongly about. But then it's like who I would have
taken just diverges so much from just like what the consensus,
Like I would have just taken Cody Williams and or.
Speaker 2: Like Ron Holland comes off the board next, right, you
could have just taken Ron Holland.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you didn't care about shooting, Like, let's go
with Ron Ron Holland.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 1: Uh. The other thing I like about their off season,
by the way, which is why I think it B
plus might be if I was at a B I
do like, while I still would have if the price
was right and you could have gotten a Trey Young
or Darius Garland or LaMelo, but like I absolutely would
have done it. But the fact that they didn't fall
into not even that it was a trap, but that
I know the Spurson never feel this way. But Wenby's
so good that you could have talked to yourself into
saying like, no, Chris Paul and Harrison Barnes can't be
the two biggest acquisitions that we have. And yet that
trade with number eight, like there's still very much focused
on the future. But I read it as because they
accepted picks so far out that those are not selections.
They're planning on keeping like they are prepared and have
the removerability to if the opportunity presents itself. That could
be this season, by the way, if they're better than expected,
they can make a move. Maybe it's next offseason when
they have maybe they get another lottery pick and they
explore that route. But I did respect not falling into
the potential trap of we don't need to be a
contender next season, but like we need to have like
someone in their prime like got here and we went
out and got them to try and maximize Wemby. I
don't think they were ever gonna fall into way put
the discourse around like they need to do this, you
have to give up whatever it takes to get Trey
Young and it's I kind of liked Trey Young here,
but no, you absolutely did not need to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that, all right. That takes us too. Oh,
I think they're yours, which will be good because I
know you're gonna kill him Denver Nuggets.
Speaker 1: Oh man, how much time we got hold on?
Speaker 2: Guy?
Speaker 1: Let me just uh uh okay, So they I can't
even do this offseason with a stray face.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: They traded number twenty six Ryan Dunn, number fifty six,
who became Kevin mccullar Junior, a twenty twenty six second
and a twenty thirty one second for de Ron Holmes
the second. He was the number twenty two pick and
he has torn his right achilles so he will not
be playing next season. They traded Reggie Jackson, a twenty
twenty nine second and a twenty thirty second to Charlotte.
They signed Russell Westbrook to a two year minimum with
a player option. In twenty five twenty six, they signed
Dario Sharitch for the mini MLE with a player option.
It's a two year, ten point six million dollar deal
twenty twenty five, two twenty six player option. DeAndre Jordan's
back one year VET minimum, black Coke Chanchar's back one
year minimum. By the way, grant, they lost Kentavious Colbo Pope.
Did you know that three years, sixty six million player
option in year three. That's what he got from Orlando. Notably,
they have two extension eligible players in Jamal Murray, eligible
for the four year, two hundred and seven point nine
million dollar extension has not signed it yet, which maybe
that's just a matter of the two sides not linking up,
but something to a file away could still happen. And
then Aaron Gordon's also extension eligible. We haven't heard a
whisper of that at all. If he declines his player option,
I think he could go to four years, one hundred
and forty four point seven million as his max.
Speaker 2: Woo.
Speaker 1: So, Grant, how are you feeling about this team's offseason.
Speaker 2: I know we're trying to wait until the end of
our discussion to give a grea.
Speaker 1: Don't do it. Don't do it. You're gonna people are
gonna tune out already.
Speaker 2: It's well, it's it's simple, right, It's not like you're
a team that won a title to two years ago.
You have a starting five that is as good as
any in the league. It's just all the numbers forever
have have have accept Yeah, other than that, and you
let a starter go over money. So that's an f
like you. You let the cost of trying to stay
as good as you could be prevent you from staying
as good as you could be. The counter is, oh,
the young guys are ready. Christian Brown's going to slot
in there like this is you know, Caldwell Pope was
just not going to be worth the money. It's sixty
six million over three years, is what it took to
get them. Like, I just talk me up from an
F I know, I know, I'm breaking with our sort
of format. Hi, we're going, we're going the same direction, right.
We don't need to pretend like there's a lot of
nuance to this one.
Speaker 1: No, And it's my whole thing is too, is that
if you I want to know, then if anyone has
a case for why this offseason was good, average or better,
what is it? And so the two things that I
think those people, insofar as they exist, would point towards
is the young guys already, maybe Christian Brown might be
better defensively next year than KCP is. I'm open to that.
You could have had both sign.
Speaker 2: Him and trade him later if Brown is better than him, right.
Speaker 1: And the other thing here is they might say, well,
if you're into the second apron for two or four years,
like all this stuff happens, you figure it out later
when your window is right fucking now. And the other
I guess the third thing that they might be able
to I don't really know if this would make it
frame in like a positive light in any way. But
if you thought KCP was like gonna slide and wasn't
as valuable come or through the regular season or come
playoff time, I'm open to that idea. I think he
becomes super valuable in the playoffs because he's someone you
need to defend from beyond the arc. And that would
circle back to trade him and figure it out later
and other stuff. By the way, nothing they did makes
up for it. There the Reggie Jackson deal that we
destroyed last year, it turns out to be even worse
because it cost them two distant seconds to get off
the Dario Sharzz thing who was giving him the mini
mL with a player option. And while I'm open to
the idea of like, oh, this is like a very
interesting backup big you can do. He will stretch the
floor a little bit. You can use him in similar ways,
uh maybe a minifact similar of Nikola Jokic. I get it, okay,
But now you've added Russell Westbrook into the equation, which
charitably the best way to frame it is a questionable move.
And for all this talk about like well, look at
some of the stuff that he could do. It's well,
I guess we're assuming he's gonna play a ton with Jokic,
and we're just assuming Michael Malone is not going to
change his staggering patterns again at all. And like that's
like now you're getting into Oh, so Russ is gonna
play minutes with Peyton Watson and then if you do
want to play in with Dario Sharz, how does that
work out? And like, are you going to get enough
spacing for a team by the way, that didn't already
probably didn't take it off threes? Like how much are
you putting on the shoulders of the Nikole Jokich Jamal
Murray tumn game at this point with the current roster
set up? And this is just like a summer of
terrible asset management and it like even you know, Holmes
the injury and couldn't have predicted that, but that was
a lot to give up. When you're limited in the assets,
you have to move up what about to about four spots.
So I just was this is an F minus offseason
and you can't And the other thing that I think
people could point toward is well, like you needed to
take the club out of Michael Malone's bag. As everyone said,
if you can't get on the same page, that's an
F minus if the front office and the coaching staff
can't get on the same page. And by the way,
unless he was just blowing smoke, Michael Malone at his
exit interview talked a lot. I think it was his
exit like the end of season interview, talked a lot
about maybe leaning on the starters too much towards the
second half of last year. If you go back, the
Denver Post had this nugget Grant Hunter Tyson and Julian
Strother and I think who is the other one third
young guy played?
Speaker 2: Was that Picket?
Speaker 1: I think it might have been Picket played a combined
thirty two point two minutes combined of non garbage time
like over the final forty three games. So Mike im
alone talking about the team being gassed like made me think, okay, like, oh,
this is someone who might now be prepared to develop
the youth while also trying to prioritize winning. Now, I
just it's not even just the Kntavious Caldwell Pope moved
to me. It's just so uninspiring that this is what
they did and then they threw like what could end
up being a pretty big ass grenade into the equation
with Russell Westbrook. Maybe it works out, but I'm sorry,
that's a matter for the regrades. You don't get to
assume on team number eleven or whatever it is Russell
Westbrook that he is going to change or is going
to be better. The standard is the standard now for
his non star minutes, and the standard has shown that, Okay,
he'll have his moments. But it's imperfect to put it kindly,
and like you're already a team that doesn't have great spacing,
but you let Kntavius callwell Pope leave and it's not
I know you weren't take a ton of threes, but
like to have someone you could guard opened up things
for a lot of all the off ball stuff that
you want to do. I just this is a shameful
offseason by the Denver Nuggets. And it could have been
said like you could have figured it out later. If
you thought you couldn't be in the second apron, you
could have moved him in the middle of the year.
And if you did this too, because of the Zeke
Nagy extension, which you and I by the way did
not like destroy And our question was we basically said, well,
they need money to use his trade matching, but why
is it so long? And like that holds true now
And finally I'm sorry for going so long, but this
is just you don't get to play the Nikole Yoki
is thirty years old. The time to keep winning is now.
But the other thing here is what do they do
with this flexibility under the second apron? They use the
minimoly on Dario Sharitch. That's not worth it. I'd rather
have KCP and be in the second apron. And by
the way, guess what, you might also still have Dario
Sharitz on the minimum had that happened. And two, like
what other moves did they make beyond that? It's just
you could say, well, maybe they'll do something at the
trade deadline because now they can aggregate. Bullshit, they have
to do it first before we're gonna I'm not leaving
open that possibility. This is and by the way, sorry,
I have another thing. They've been so inconsistent with the
messaging of how they justified this. First it was kind
of about the shorter term, but then it was about
the longer term or vice versa. It's I mean, pick
a side to be stupid on either way is dumb,
but like pick a form of dumb assery here, please.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to try out to be is quite so versatile
in it. I just I just think I don't have
a lot to add. I would just say I have
not yet heard the argument that there was any downside,
like a realistic downside that I that actually buy of
not just paying what it took to cap to keep
KCP and letting it, letting the team sort of decide
whether he needs to continue to feature as a starter
or it's time to move him because the market told
you what he's worth, and then you you can you
which is like something like twenty plus million dollars a year.
Like that's someone you can trade for positive value, and
you just the last thing is you look at what
other teams that are somewhat similarly situated to Denver have done.
Like now Boston's a little bit of an outlier, but
they're they're given Sam Houser and Peyton Pritchard money, Like
they're given these guys contracts that the Sons are given
Royce O'Neil and Grayson Allen deals that like are you
know those guys matter, but they're also like, well maybe
we can trade them if we like we're hamstrung. We
need salaries in this range to move Like why is
Denver different? Like why not just treat CACP like Royce
O'Neil if if you want, like if you want to
frame it that way, like he's valuable that way. I
just I need the case to be made to me
for why there was any logic too, just specifically, the
KCP thing is like almost the only thing I'm grading,
which is so if you want to go f minus,
I'm with it.
Speaker 1: If we go well, and I want to make this
clear one more times. If we have to go back
in a year and we see that let's say Peyton, Watson,
Christian Brown, and Julius rather all just popped, that's great.
Still could have had like there's this doesn't need to
be a mutually exclusive scenario. And if your argument was, well, no,
they wouldn't have played those guys enough of KCP was
on the roster. That's also gonna be something that you
need to dig in the organization for then, because and
at the most fundamental level, you let one of your
he might be what was he their fourth monst so
you have Yo Kich Murray or more important? Who else
was more important than KCP?
Speaker 2: Is it Gordon?
Speaker 1: So he might have been your fourth, fifth, at worst
most important player and you you got nothing for him
leaving you got nothing, and so you could have maybe
signed him Christian Brown and Peyton Watson breakout. And by
the way, this isn't part of the grade, but it
makes you a little bit uncomfortable about, well, what's gonna
happen with Aaron Gordon next year? They just gonna decide
like not has to be ready, right, and like there's
his replacement. So that's really like something that makes me
un easy. And my final thing to you is if
Jamal Murray gets the mass extension, not that we can
go any lower, but are you gonna feel better or
worse about the rope? I guess you act to feel
better just because it's okay they locked this guy down.
The two man game between him and Yoki is still
just stifling. But in terms of his injuries and his
inconsistent availability. And I thought the DMVR show did a
great job recently of breaking this down about some of
the comments he has made in the past. Just shows
that this isn't someone who comes in in shape and
decides to work himself in shape. I don't think you
can feel worse about their off season. But I also
don't view Jamal Murray as a no brainer no now
for the Nuggets. I guess he is, But what are
you supposed to do as the nugget? The fact that
there hasn't been an extension yet to me announced, I
keep checking my phone actually before we're getting up to this, like, oh,
maybe they'll but it's so bizarre. But I didn't mean
to hijack my own question, But do you feel how
do you feel about Jamal Murray getting a four year
MAX extension?
Speaker 2: I think I would feel kind of how you outlined it, like, Okay, good,
that's locked in. They're willing to spend on somebody. That's
a positive. But I would have a lot of questions,
a lot of concerns, all with the hell, with the
possibility of decline, with how we looked in the playoffs,
how we looked over the summer, like all that stuff is. Yeah,
not a no brainer? Is like a pretty pleasant way
to frame how i'd feel about about that extension.
Speaker 1: That was we're so used to saying nice things about
the Nuggets. It's been like a weird few months around
these parts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and well, if you're good, spend the money. That's
that's kind of all there is to it, all, right.
So I have the Minnesota Timberwolves, I believe if we
have alphabeted correctly, and I think we have starting here,
we got Tim Connolly is going to be back for
twenty four to twenty five, with an opt out for
twenty five twenty six. So may not be there to
see all those twenty thirties and twenty thirty one picks
go somewhere else, It'll be there at least next year.
Chris Pnch got a four year contract extension, well deserved.
Good for him. So the also traded We mentioned this
with the Spurs a twenty thirty first round swap with
top one protection and a twenty thirty one first rounder
for Rob Dillingham as the number eighth pick. Number eight
pick that became Rob Dillingham traded Bobie Clintman number thirty
seven and Wendellmore Junior to Detroit. Drafted Terrence Shannon Junior
at number twenty seven. Luca Garza got two years and
four and a half million team auction. On the second
year of that deal, Joe Ingles and PJ Doser got
one year minimums, Jesse Edwards and Dash Nicks got two ways,
So unfinished business like potential things to keep an eye on.
Rudy Gobert is extension eligible? Is that coming? Just in
terms of departures Monte Morris, Kyle Anderson, Jordan McLaughlin to Phoenix,
Golden State, and Sacramento respectively. So Dan kind of a
big swing or like a I don't know, a surprising
swing at least on draft night for the Dillingham pick.
That's the big business here and I think a lot
of our grade has to focus on that, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I'm torn between the risk of it
all and then I just so appreciate the sentiment, especially
coming off of a team with the Nuggets that elected
not to double down on their roster and it's just
but like Minnesota is kind of doing the same thing,
like over banking on the young, but it wasn't at
the expense of the corps that was already in place,
and I really respect it. I don't think it's something
which is why I was a little curious that, okay,
So aside from Dillingham, and you have Edwards and Conley.
By the way, when Conley played without Edwards last year,
the Timperles offense was in the thirtieth percentile. So he's
only getting older. I think he's still a good player,
but like so now it's tied to Dillingham kind of
needs to be good right out of the gate, or
you're looking at PJ. Doser or Nikhil Alexander Walker have
to kind of fill in those gaps. So there's a
risk there. And you have Joe Angles of course too,
but he's he's slowed down for sure. And by the way,
on the court, I like the Terrence Shannon pick as well,
So like I appreciate everything they did. And by the way,
getting Tim Connelly to come back amid the uncertainty of
what's happening with control of the franchise not a small
deal either, So I appreciate everything they did. I just
wonder if you did, like maybe, okay, a few years
from now we look at this and say, like, oh,
Rob Dillingham turned to exactly who you thought he was
going to. But is that at all gonna come certainly
in the regular season I don't. I don't want to
say it'll come at the expense of wins. But if
you're going to expend this many assets to get a rookie,
my assumption is that he is going to play and
you're gonna have to stomach some growing pains, And my
assumption there would then be the non Anthey Edwards minutes
are going to get worse. So did you concede some
playoff positioning there? And more importantly, I don't think they
care about that because they're really good. Is he gonna
be ready to play a part in your postseason rotation?
Because if he's not, now you get into it. Like
that's where okay, PJ. Doser and Joe Ingles like that
they become more important, more integral to your postseason rotation
than I think you would.
Speaker 2: Like. Yeah, there's a little bit of a safety net
because like, you really didn't get much from Montey Morris
and you could say, well, Joe Ingles might be in
terms of like what he actually provides this year, Joe
Ingles might provide more playmaking help than Monte Morris did
last year. That wouldn't be hard considering how little he played.
Speaker 1: Kyle Anderson playoff rotat and shorten up. I guess is
the thing that I'm just that where it's okay, maybe
Rob Dillingham's role shrinks, But is that just because they're
playing their starters forty minutes a game.
Speaker 2: Well, right, but it's just to finish the point. Like
Kyle Anderson's also gone, and one of his chief skills
is like he can be a playmaker from the forward spot.
You don't have that, so, like net, your playmaking is
you have less of it than you did last year.
And this is a team that like phenomenal defense, the
offense was the problem. I think that's a risky game
to play now if Dillingham the Wolves must believe that
Dillingham is at worst a really good, high scoring six
man that gives back a lot on defense, then they
don't care about that because their defense behind him is
gonna be really good. Like that, he has to ad
minimum be a really good bench scorer who you can
give the ball to as a second unit leader. That's
a huge ask for like any rookie, let alone one
that you know he's the eighth pick and a bad
draft like that. It's not like it's just it's it's
I think the expectation should be that Dillingham actually will
not be able to do that this year. So that
doesn't mean it's a bad trade because you have to think,
you know, two, three, five, seven years down the road,
I guess when you're talking about a lottery pick. But
for where the Wolves are now, like that's a huge
r Conley just cannot play as much as he did
last year, I don't think. And unless you're gonna ask
Alexander Walker, you mentioned all this, like there are other
more safety nets. Alexander Walker like kind of came into
the league as sort of a point guard and like
has been tried at that and might be abble to
do more of that, And we want the ball in
Ant's hands more. Maybe he does more on the you know,
primary playmaking. There's ways to go. It's just it's just
such a high risk move if you care about the
end of the decade, which maybe that's the thing to
talk about. Is like I don't think the Wolves do,
because they know this team will not look like it
does today in like three years, let alone six or whatever.
So maybe that's how we we could view the Dillingham
trade as like a positive, like for sure, because otherwise
it's it's it's almost like an incomplete and with with
a lot of downside, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's it's also just like you're right to
view it through the longer lens, because you could say
they gave up those assets, but there was no way
for them to use those assets on someone who provides
more immediate help in a way had to be done
this way right, in a way that like didn't cost
them someone who they need and so like, and then
also like it does matter that I guess you can't
say they like spent, but they expended assets more than
they did money. But like the question was especially amid
the ownership Tobacco, would they move a player who is
good and it would make them worse because whether it
was Nasried, whether it was Karl Anthony Towns, you could
never really come up with a trade that really even
rebalanced the roster, let alone made them better. So I
do think they deserve credit for not going down that road.
And you could say, well, why are we crediting them
for those like well, because other teams, the Clippers, the Warriors,
like the Nuggets, like they shied away from doing this
stuff and so like the Temperleves did not shy away
from keeping this together. Like their tax bill is going
to be in the nine figures.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: That's so we have questions about how long they're prepared
to float it, but so they deserve credit for that.
The Rob Dillingham of it all, it's so complicated. I
think I end up liking it because especially when you
wade through the lens that or view it, excuse me,
through the lens that you are because even if he
doesn't help next year, you are, like Anthony Edwards is
very young. So I guess the two ways looking at
it are are you kind of trying to plan around
for as he enters his prime in those years or
did you just outlay all these assets at a time
when it's okay, like now you've exhausted your coffers before
Edwards even hits his prime. So there are probably a
bunch of different ways to look at it. I'm very
curiously where your grade ends up being. And also I
think there are some people that are just gonna assume
that Rob Dillingham is gonna be great for them right
out of the gate. You would need to like come
at me with the list of examples like recent example
the rookies who went into good teams and played these
pivotabal roles. And I actually think what Dillingham does one
of the things I think might be most valuable. So
there's the shooting that scales to on and off the ball,
like he gets off the ball so quickly, like he
doesn't need to really just meander with it, and that's
so good for their offense. At the same time, if
he's not going to play your major role, though you
didn't improve your floor spacing, then at all, okay, Joe
angles over Kyle Anderson a floor spacing upgrade. But in
terms of just volume, like how much volume were you're
getting out of him? And this was a team that
they did shoot almost forty percent from three, like thirty
nine percent on above the break threes, I guess that
that probably, I mean, Karnthley Towns is typically really good
at those. But in terms of they were twentieth I
think in three point at tempt eight. If Dillingham isn't
who you need him to be long term out of
the gate, I don't know that they can meaningfully nudge
up that volume. And so I again I'm so interesting
where your grade comes in at for this team.
Speaker 2: So I think what I'm kind of settling in at
is I appreciate, especially because we just did Denver. I
appreciate the ambition and the like focus on the timeline
and the goal that matters, which is next year. And
like you said this, I think this might be maybe
the most important way to frame it. They couldn't really
get this type of guy talking about Dillingham any other way,
and so like, kudos to the Wolves for saying, like, well,
if this is what it takes to get the guy
we need, and this is the only way to make
it happen, we will just give up that swap in
that distance first, because one who cares about the twenty thirties,
if all the decision makers in the team are probably
saying to themselves and too, like this is what it's
going to take. Like our situation is different from everybody else's.
We don't have a bunch of the resources that other
teams do. This is how we have to do it.
That's separate from saying Dillingham's definitely going to be good
or great or what they need him to be. This
is just the only recourse they had, So I respect it. Right, Like,
I think to be consistent, we have to say like
good for you guys and skew positive. The other thing
I was thinking about is if all this results in
is Anthony Edwards has to be on the ball more like,
isn't that the endgame with this team anyway? You know, Like,
isn't that where you hope to have to go? Where
you play different you play lineups like look, okay, I
hate to do this, but he's getting all the Michael
Jordan comparisons. He's not Michael Jordan. Some of those Bulls
teams started Ron Harper at ute unquote point guard because
Michael Jordan Scottie Pippen could do the ball handling stuff.
Like if Edwards is that type of lead guard, maybe
you get away with like something other than a conventional
playmaker next to him, and maybe this is the year
you start fast tracking that development.
Speaker 1: I guess where I would have paused there is like
I'm at the point where I want to see Anthony
Edwards's role get easier, not harder, because unless his shot,
like his shot selection is just okay, he's great and
making difficult shots, but it's can we get to a
point where like that doesn't need to be the offense
and can we get him easier shots? And the theory
behind Dillingham long term is like, oh, he should be
able to do that again, I just don't know. That
might not be a this season thing. And you just
said something that made me think of this too, when
you were talking about they didn't have any other recourse there.
They were almost too good, like you couldn't do what
the Bucks did, Like why couldn't they have been the
team to get Gary Trenchun You're at the minimum? Okay,
tell me who you're pulling out of the starting or
the closing lineup to make sure that Gary Trenjunior gets minutes, right,
you didn't have that spot available. So that's another in
theory resource that wasn't available you because you can't sell
players on these guaranteed high volume roles. And yes, it's
easier to saying like, well you just bench Mike Commley
and put Garret Trun Junior on the floor. I was
just bemoaning, I want Anthony Edward's role to get easier.
Garret Trenchuner doesn't pass the ball, Like that's just one example,
but it made me think they didn't even really like
they get a minimum like Joe Engles because he doesn't
need to be guaranteed any any type of role. So
I actually think I'm coming in at a B plus
and a lot of that is probably rooted in respect
and appreciation of what they're trying to do. But we
have to look at it. I guess you would have
to tell me. I'm not saying you a collective view,
is it? Well, like, oh, they did get rid of
Wendell Moore junior and use Bobie Clintman, who's like a
floor spacing big. It's okay. Well they have Karl Anthony
Towns and Nasried and by the way, Leonard Miller on
this team too. So number thirty seven is not nothing
for a team that could use cause control assets. But
relative to the resources that were at their disposal, what
is there not to like about? Like this season? This
offseason excuse, it just has.
Speaker 2: To be uncertainty on whether it was worth it for Dillingham.
And so I was going to come in at a
B minus And if you're at a B plus, maybe
we settle at a BEE just because I have any
concession to me? Yeah, I think I think that feels
about right. It's just I mean, really, I'm I'm almost
only grading the Dillingham deal and it's just I have
so many questions about it. But again, we got to
be consistent because we kill teams when they don't like
really go for it when they're this good. And the
Wolves did what they had to do to try to
get better, Like that's worth.
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you were going to attach nas Reed
to those picks, then who's the player that you're getting
back where it's like that would have been makes way more.
I guess in theory you could have done that, but
I would need to see, like give me the suggestions
of players that who were realistically available for that. So
it rooted in appreciation, but I'm going to be plus,
we settle on a Bee as a podcast. Next up
grant Are I think they're they're my Oklahoma City Thunder.
I was glad, let's take it for this team. Uh
So they drafted Nicolo Topic at number twelve. They traded
Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso. They traded five second round
picks for Dylan Jones, who was number twenty six overall.
They signed Isaiah Hartenstein three years, eighty seven million dollars
there's a team option on year three, and Isaiah Hartenstein's
like first team all. He's younger than you think he
is in case anybody cares Isaiah Joe. So they declined
his team option and then signed him for four years
forty eight million, and there's a team option on that
final season. They did the same thing with Aaron Wagans,
declined his team option, then sign him for five years
forty seven million with a team option on that final year.
They basically there was a couple of transaction involved, but
they turned Lindy Waters the third into AJ Mitchell, who
was the number thirty eight pick. And that's really it,
Like there's no I mean like they have AJ Mitchell's
now in a two way for anybody who cares. But
that is the that is a meat. That is their
entire offseason. Really grant how you feel about the Okama
City Thunder. This was the team all alluding to where
I said when we looked at the MAVs and the
Sixers offseason, it like they're the team that rivals.
Speaker 2: I think those two feeling pretty good, feeling pretty good,
added two guys that could conceivably close. Got off Josh
Giddy ahead of extension eligibility didn't have to. It could have,
but ultimately didn't give up any of their million future.
First to get Alex Caruso, who's just such a plus
defensive ad to this team that already has great defensive players.
And then you get the center you need one in Hartenstein,
who like, by the way, Hartenstein obviously gonna help the rebounding,
going to help the interior defense, but like nobody seems
to remember that this guy is like really capable as
as a secondary facilitator, whether it's like a short role
or just as like that's a real he has that ability.
Like remember that like chunk of a season where he
played with the Nuggets and like everyone was joking about like,
oh he's absorbing the Jokic. No, he's like a good
passer that you can use in that role. Which is
just another wrinkle to a team that.
Speaker 1: Which is you know what's kind of scary is so
Oklahoma City spaces the floor so well, but they take
fewer threes than you think. It's kind of like the
like the Dynastic Warriors, where this is like the greatest
shooting team all times, Like, well, they're actually not taking
as many threes. As you think they are. And now
if you if I say a heart's started operating in
that like I would assume their corner three point attempt
where he should like skyrocket when he's.
Speaker 2: On the Yeah. Well, and like the reason those Warriors
teams didn't take a bunch of threes is because everyone
was like, well, they could get layups because they had
so much talent in good passing. It's like, we'll just
take layups instead. Do you want to top lock all
the shooters and you want to like sell out to
not get It's like, okay, why can't the Thunder do that?
I mean they don't have the shooting personnel obviously nobody
ever has or probably ever will again. But like there's
there's a scenario where like obviously he's going to help
on the boards and just in the heft departments, which
is what everybody talked about, is like, what's the one
weakness to the Thunder have he will help there. I
don't think his ability to help this offense is being
talked about enough.
Speaker 1: And by the way, he can he did this before
he got to like he can take the occasional three.
Speaker 2: More power to him. I mean, like again, I just
I think, now we don't want to get too too
crazy about it, but like he's going to help on
both Oh, can I ask you a question discussed? Who
do you.
Speaker 1: Think ends up being and I know the salaries imply
one thing, or but who winds up being more valuable
to this team? Alex Caruso or Isaiah Hartenstein.
Speaker 2: I mean, normally you'd say Caruso just because he is
elite at just as a perimeter defender, disruptor. But you
still you got are you got Dort, you got Jilen Williams,
you got Sga was a really great defensive player last year.
So I guess it's probably Hartenstein.
Speaker 1: Uh I disagree?
Speaker 2: I don't know, Well, so why is it Caruso you think?
Speaker 1: I think because he's to me Chet Holmgren. They view
him as a center. And so just like inherently when
you're playing Isaiah Hartenstein, there's a trickle down effect of
is Chet in his best role? And then who are
you yanking off? Where it's like Caruso comes in and
it's okay, let's just say you insert him for lou
Dort and it's okay, you got better shooting and the
defense is about net even there and so I look
at that and I think that you make more stylistic
concessions with Isaiah Hartenstein than you do with Caruso. And
I think I'll say it this way because I believe
that they viewed Chet as a center. I just think
Cruso is going to wind up playing in more closing lineups.
Speaker 2: I think I think that's fair. What I would say
is like Hartenstein is the guy that gives them dimensions
that critics they had said they lacked, which is just
the need. They need a real big guy down there,
and you can get away with one of those if hardened.
If Chet is spacing as a quote unquote for I
guess so, I just think Hartenstein allows them to be
different than they were last year, whereas Caruso kind of
allows them to be maybe depending on how you view
him versus Dort overall like a slightly better version of
what they of the same thing, if that you know
what I mean. Like, So, yeah, I guess the case
for Crusoe is that just like that, dude's just better
than lou Dort and in the ways that really matter
for the thunder, So you could be right. I just
think Hartenstein adds I think they sought after they sawt
him so uh vigorously because he like gives them a
chance to be different in ways that will matter against
certain teams in the high stakes games they want to play.
But that's all to say they got both. They didn't
have to choose, and then they get that they have
to give up to get hold on let me uh
oh right, not any of them?
Speaker 1: Two?
Speaker 2: Yeah? None, And then Wiggins and Joe those are just
like if you wanted to criticize the Thunder for like,
you know, you don't have enough mid tier salaries to
trade on like good players, Like okay, well there's two
guys that are actually really good and now they're trade assets,
Like what are we doing?
Speaker 1: This is?
Speaker 2: This isn't a plus? Well, we can't go anywhere else?
Can we?
Speaker 1: One critique I have is my actual biggest worry for
them was not what everyone else was. I thought they
needed another shot creator type who wasn't Josh, Like, someone
who could space the floor but also set up people
and had more. It wasn't just a straight downhill type
of playmaking or shot creation. It was had some directionality,
jiggle and joggle. My whole thing is, though we're just
gonna sit here and pretend that Jay Dob's not gonna
get better after he just got better from year one,
and like the bar for him from year one to
year two, it wasn't the typical oh this dude, like
the bar was so high already, and you saw some
more of that directionality from him. And I think the playoffs,
like the fact. I view it as the fact that
he had to go through that those playoffs in year two.
I'd be terrified if I was the rest of the
leak for what he's gonna come with in terms of counters.
And but aside from that, I think you I also
believe that Chet Holmgren can do more stuff.
Speaker 2: And that there's gonna say I feel like it's a
little hot taky, but I think Chet has like way
more in his bag as a as a play starter
like initiator than we've seen so far.
Speaker 1: Can we can we get out in front of the
like they need to throw the ball in the post
to Chet and let him punish mismatches discourse, though it
could come in the form of like, no, let him
get to his floater off of drives more and the
space is gonna be up. But or can he do
the Porzingia stuff where it's like catch the ball face
up and just fire off a jumper because he he's
fucking taller than almost anyone else. And yeah, it'd be
cool to see him like develop like sort of the
turnaround and the fadeaways. More so I'm with you. I
just don't need to see they're not gonna do it.
But they're not gonna like, you know, put Chet at
the elbows and let like twelve seconds. Like he's not
trying to back down people, even if he got a
little bit stronger. So I think he could improve. But
if I had to pick an area of concern and
you could say that, well, Aaron Wiggins provides like a
little of that. But it's just like getting to lineups.
This is what's specific about it is you need that
shot creator to fit in what profiles has their best lineups.
Aeron Wiggins is very good, but like he's not someone
that you're predominantly gonna close with. But I can't. I
don't know how you critique them for like that's just
me splitting hairs and it's if you want the solution,
it's probably on the roster in the form of Chet
homegun and Jail Williams.
Speaker 2: We didn't even mention and this isn't an off season thing,
but we didn't even mention Cason Wallace that dude's gonna
get better, like I don't know at what, but something
several somethings. So he doesn't look like he wants to
fill that role. No, I like, I don't know, maybe
he can. It's very possible he may not have to.
Speaker 1: And by the way, do you know the answer just
might not play this season in Nicole and Topina. We
can't grade the pick like he just I think it
was a very nice flyer for the spot. But do
you remember when we were talking about it and I said,
from what I've watched of him, I don't know what
the outcome is this, but he there's just like mannerisms
when he's on the ball that reminds me of Shay
And I'm like, now, this dude just gets to play
or learn from Shay.
Speaker 2: Like what we're doing here, it's it's an A plus
is what we're doing. That's what we're giving me.
Speaker 1: The skateboard kid is standing the thunder again, so commenters
can get mad about that. Accordingly, it was so what
do you think, like b minus C plus yeah forgive
or take oh ay plus plus plus for the thunder
plus maximum pluses plus with a little like repeating sign
over the plus.
Speaker 2: Portland Trailblazers are next. I'll take them. They're mine, They're yours.
There everybody's drafted Donovan Clinging at number seven. Traded number fourteen,
which became bub Carrington and Malcolm Brogden and a twenty
nine first rounder which will be the second most favorable
of their own Boston and Milwaukee's to the Washington Wizards
for Danny Avdia. Very interesting trade. Traded number forty with it,
which was also a Guadaro for number fifty two, which
is Quenton Post, which they traded for cash. I think
the Warriors ended up with Posts by the way.
Speaker 1: Just they did, which was funny because they traded that
pick initially and then it ended up back to them.
Speaker 2: Circle of Life picked up Dolana Benton's team option. DeVante
Graham is on board for a one year minimum. Signed
Justin and Iah and Bryce McGowan's to two ways. So, Dan,
what are our thoughts on the Portland Trailblazers. You want
to start with drafting the fourteenth center for the roster
or this really interesting trade that got them Dannyavdia, But
at what cost?
Speaker 1: I will say, I would have to go back and
edit some of my thoughts. I had un Donovan Clinging
pre draft. I like him a lot better now, but
this roster's just so.
Speaker 2: Confusing to me.
Speaker 1: And I understand the rebuildings, so it doesn't necessarily have
to matter, and I think they could. Is this a
team or is this just me? I don't know that
I've talked to you about this. Could they be like
sneaky good defensively if everybody's healthy because you have Clinging,
you've eighton. If Robert Williams the third is healthy, plus Grant,
you have Thible, you have Denny Avdia now as well
Delano Banton. They picked up his team options, So you're
still relying on Sharp and Scoot, which could hurt you,
and then Simon's of course, But like if if Sharper
Scoot specifically get any better on the defensive end. I
look at this team and I'm like, maybe they blow
it up if this happens. But if you told me
they were fifteenth or better in points allowed per possession,
I don't think I would push back against them.
Speaker 2: Am I just am I out of my mind? You know,
I think I guess what I would say is if
they are really good defensively, it's either a really good
sign or a really bad sign for their young guards,
because it either means that, oh my god, like Scoot
and Simon's and sharp can are all guarding, or it
means like those guys aren't playing that much, because that's
the only other way because the point of attack, based
on the track records of all three of those guys
so far, point of attack defense is going to be
an issue. And I don't know, maybe all the back
line help and like the Thighble and and Avdia can
compensate for that.
Speaker 1: But like the Kamara too, I didn't imagine Jesus, you didn't.
Speaker 2: Even mention Kamara. Yeah, no, this team has massive defensive upside.
It's just like, is it a good thing if we
see it? Like there's one iteration where.
Speaker 1: Up you're gonna be the one to tap into it.
I still don't know what his guiding principle is as
a coach does. Yeah, so so you're just grading. If
we're being fair, is the only thing we're grading. Basically,
it's not the only thing, but like, you can't do
you call clinging a home run or a bust? I
don't think you could go either way. And so are
we just grading any Abdia trade, which is one of
the most Maybe it we're not baffling, but for me,
it's like it's the Rubik's Cubes of trades. I just
I'm trying to figure it out still we're months removed
from it.
Speaker 2: So I was just thinking. I was writing something earlier
today about the Wizards, and I've decided, like I just
like it for the Wizards because it's extremely future focused
in and aligns more with what I think should be
an extremely future focused, like overall team approach. I think
it couldn't you say that that should be the Blazers,
like you know, thinking too, like shouldn't shouldn't they value
bub Carrington and what you can get for Brogden and
a future first more than Avdiya who's twenty three and
is still young. But like should I just don't know it.
So I guess to say that you like this for
Portland is to say that they're in a slightly different
position than the Wizards are. I guess right like that
that's how I'm starting to try to wrestle with it.
Speaker 1: I think they they are in a different position though,
because like they're the Wizards were working from a completely
barren like position of in terms of having that cornerstone.
And even I love Bala Kolabali, and we don't know
enough about SORR accounting team, but like they can't sit
there and say, Okay, this Scoot Henderson is still considered
like this directional tempole type prospect that he should be
until he proves, like over a course in multiple years,
that he's not. And I think it'd be different if
Denny Avdy was Paul George like in the timeline that
but he's twenty three. The contract is great. Maybe you're
worried about extending him off it at the end, but
that's four years from now. And I also took it
to me and maybe this is a misread on my part,
but he kind of feels he feels a need now
if you believe that he could play the three. But
I also took it as well, they're going to be
more open to moving Jeremy Grant this season is going
to sit in there. So I think that was so
I hated it for both teams in the moment, and
the more I thought about it, and maybe is this
the benefit or downside of time and space? I understand it,
even if I don't love it from both perspectives. There's
also the factoid of I'm perennially higher on Denny avviy
than probably anyone else in existence.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if the reason this has been such
a hard trade to like sort of get get on
firm footing with is because it's actually just good for
both teams, and that so rarely happens that we just
don't know what to do with it. I think maybe
that's where That's kind of where I'm leaning now, is
like I totally get it from Washington's perspective, and what
you just said is getting me even closer to understanding
it from Portland's perspective. I think I think it might
just be so. I guess then I would view it,
as I'm coming around to it now, as a favorable
trade for the Blazers. I think it's I think it's
a C plus as it stands now, and maybe it's
even better if, like if Carrington's not any good, or
if the Wizards can't get a first for Brogden, like
there is some uncertainty about it, but I love Avdia
like I can't, you know, I just feel like and
he makes more sense because you're right, the Blazers are
not at the same they're both rebuilding, but the Blazers
are at a very different phase of that process than
the Wizards are. So getting the quote unquote older guy,
I think you know it's a defensible Now.
Speaker 1: The thing that I have questions about is Denny Avia
hit Histores last year doesn't take enough and this is
not a team that improved. It's basic if anything got
worse because you got rid of Brogden, and so like,
how do you square that with? And I guess it
ties into should they have by now? Or let's cause
we're gonna go back and do regrades but it's September,
Like should they have already made some of the talent
shedding calls that we know are going to come if
it's not by the trade deadline and certainly by next offseason,
because that would be a fair critique of just like, well,
if you want all these guys kind of in the room,
like should the big man situation be cleared up? So
you're not dealing like we got, Oh, we have like
du operate and we have Robert Williams the Third, and
we have DeAndre and Donovan Klingen. So I think that's fair.
So like, I'm not they're not at a point where you, oh,
we shouldn't have taken Clinging because we have eight and
Robert Williams the Third, But like, is there a plan
in place to make sure that Clinging doesn't have to
like see his development warped in any way, just even
if it's just year one, because those dudes are gonna
take priority, and I certainly I think Ayton's probably people
have written off Robert Williams the Third. I actually think
he's the best of the bigs on their roster when
he's healthy. But he's just never healthy. So that's why
Ayton probably takes the higher profile there. I like, so
that makes me uneasy, But I also don't know how
to grade the matter of like they should have just
done a better job of opening so because sometimes you
can go too far and direction or the other where
it's oh there's like too many veterans here or too
many guys that in minutes versus oh, there's not like
the Pistons would be the other end of the spectrum,
where they're just sort of course correcting on that front
where it felt like they had too many just flyers
and not enough of Okay, we need guys who are good,
don't fit our timeline, aren't going to be around for
a long enough time, but they will streamline the existence
of the guys that we want to develop. I think
Portland probably skews as of right now to me too
far in the direction of, like, even though you can
make a case that the Wizards are there right now,
why are there so many roster spots being taken up
by guys that aren't going to be here in two years? Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think if you're gonna give the Blazers the benefit
of the doubt, the case you'd make is like, so
take Ayton, take Jeremy Grant and so both. I don't
have it up in front of me, But it's not
like you're running into a situation where their value is
going to decline because they're getting towards the end of
these deals that they're on. Broggden, in contrast, they did
trade and that's I think a good point of comparison,
because he is expiring right or is he Yeah, I
think he's expired. So, like, I guess the benefit of
the doubt case for Portland is like they're just kind
of being patient and maybe a deal emerges for it.
Now you can go too far with that, and I
think I generally agree with you. Is it feels like
Portland is bad enough to where the roster mix like
doesn't really matter too much to me, Like they are
over stuffed at center and there are vets that like,
why are you still here type of guys. But like
I think maybe in certain cases, and maybe this is
one of them, there's not really an urgent, but maybe
there should be, right because if you want Clinging to
play and you want to sort of just see what
Sharp and Scoot have going.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm a little more open to the patient's
approach or the patient's excuse for the weird roster, but
I guess it's just still an issue.
Speaker 1: I would. I just want to see what the minute
it's I want to see what the minutes district. If
they don't make any further changes before the start of
the season, I want to see what the minist distribution
looks like, because you can just sit here and say, well,
they know claning is more valuable to the future, so
he's gonna play plenty. Coaches don't always think in those terms.
Speaker 2: Right, especially guys like Billups who might want to keep
a job that like he doesn't exactly have a strength.
Speaker 1: There's like maybe one or two coaches whose seats feel
less secure than billups is right now, like Willie Green
just off rip because of the Pelicans' expectations, and they're
kind of getting to a point where's, well, what else
are we changing if no one wants to trade for
brandon Ingram? But so yeah, I think I kind of
end up in like the I'm thinking, like B B
minus range is that too high? Too love?
Speaker 2: B minus sounds good to me. I like the OVDA trade,
and I guess the Klingon pick is probably at worst,
I don't we we just sort of can't create it.
But like just the surrounding roster, I guess kind of
makes both of those moves seem a little weird, like
weird enough to where we see the upside, we see
like nothing terrible went down, but like we can't go
crazy in the B plus or A range, So B
minus I'm good with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so for anyone who didn't listen to the
grading criteria, that is above average. If you've just choppered
in for this section, good grade.
Speaker 2: Good job Blazers.
Speaker 1: Uh, this TA team is min Oh my Utah Jazz,
this is really unfortunate that I'm taking ownership of them
this offseason. Drafted Cody Williams at ten. I suddenly feel
better about the Utah Jazz. Drafted Isaiah Collier at number
twenty nine. Drafted Kyle Philipalski at number thirty two. He
signed a four year, twelve million dollar deal, the first
two years of which are guaranteed. They signed Drew Ubanks
for some reason to two years nine point eight million,
only year one is guaranteed. That was more money than
I thought Drew Eubanks was going to get after how
he played in Phoenix that year. They traded Chris Dunn
on a It ended up being a three year deal
to the Clippers for Russell Westbrook, who was bought out,
and they got a twenty thirty second round swap as
well as four point three million dollars in cash.
Speaker 2: The big one Larry Market and the.
Speaker 1: Renegotiating extend is done, so the salary has increased from
eighteen something million to the max of forty two point two,
so about an increase of twenty four million in change.
That's the max next season. And then he added an
additional four years at one hundred and ninety five point
nine million. That was less than he technically could have
received over those four years, and there are no options
in that deal. They signed Saphie Makaie Luke too four
years and fifteen point one million, but only year one
is guaranteed. When I saw that number, I was like, Okay,
this is like classic NFL reporting here, right. They signed
Johnny Jizangna four years, eleven point four million.
Speaker 2: Guess what grant?
Speaker 1: Only year one is guaranteed. Any notable exits here? They
waved Darius Baisley, they wave Kenny lofton junior, They waved
over your at seven grant. How are we feeling about
Utah's offseason?
Speaker 2: I feel like anyone that's heard us talk about them
should understand that we're sort of conflicted. I like the
I love the Cody Williams pick. I even really liked
the Isaiah Collier pick, just because of where he was
sort of viewed, you know, before last college season started.
I don't know was the top five type guy smart?
Speaker 1: People love the Philipowski pick too.
Speaker 2: Sure, I think all three of those picks are are great. Again,
We're not going nuts over the draft, h Drew Banks.
Speaker 1: I'll go nuts over Cody Williams. He was he finished
the top my big board.
Speaker 2: Drew you Banks is obviously alliance your question on the
roster for when they trade Walker Kesseler, who they don't
care about it anymore. It's it's we're we don't know
what to do with the Jazz because they gave market
and all this money, which like I think he's probably worth.
I'm fine with him at that money. It's just it's
difficult to determine how the Jazz can be in service
of their young players, and also, like make it make
sense that they gave a late mid to late twenties
guy that's not an all star, hasn't been one yet
that kind of money. Like what I just I guess
maybe if you're going to give them a high grade,
you would have to say, this is all still just
an asset management exercise, and Lauri Markinen is a positive
asset at that number, and that is how the Jazz
are viewing him as opposed to like, we're going to
build a winner short term around him, because that just
isn't what's happening with the rest of this roster. There's
a weird, like overall disconnect, right that we sort of
have to figure out how to make make sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's I I don't know whether I'm like, I guess,
kind of neutral.
Speaker 2: I love the Cody Williams pick.
Speaker 1: Like I said, I guess the case comes down to
do you think that did they do enough to ensure
that they won't have another year like they did these
past two seasons where they're they've become so good for
this pocket of time that they then kind of have
to hurry up and tank around and after the trade deadline,
it's just not enough.
Speaker 2: You're gonna end up with, you.
Speaker 1: Know, the tenth overall pick or the eighth overall pick. Whatever.
It winds up being my counter to people who are
concerned about that, and it's also countering myself because I
feel like I'm concerned just because will Hardy is a
good coach and they have some good players.
Speaker 2: Uh, this team took like one.
Speaker 1: Of their three good defenders and traded him and Chris
Dunn and now it's who's their best perimeter defender. It's
probably Taylor Hendrix. I'm open to the idea that it
will be Cody Williams. They still have Walker Kessler on
this team, but like those three players does not make
it like a league average defense. The Jazz are probably
gonna be in the bottom three defensively. Out imagine that's
gonna be enough to I think, lose him a bunch
of games. And the upside of having market In under
contract if you don't want to do anything that he's
gotten paid so it doesn't matter too much, but you
don't want to cost him all NBA or All Star
eligibility by not playing him enough. Like now you could
just do whatever the hell you want to within reason
of well, you also don't want a new kiss trade
value where it's well, why did market It only play
in fifty three games last year and it was like, oh,
he had like a sprained super CATCHU fragile, this ahb
Alidoci's tendon or something is like listed on the injury report,
So then teams would know that as well. I like,
I don't know that I feel confident in Utah's direction
because they still do need to unearth the best player
of their future. So even if you think that they
want to keep marketing long term, which I'm still not convinced,
but I think, honestly, I think if Danny Ainge had
his way, marketing would have already been gone. But I
think but just between ownership and then like the team
being too good at points, his hand was just forced
a little bit. But you need to find the player
who is good enough to say, well, marketing is our
second best player and we feel great about that. Do
I trust that they're going to find that player via
the draft? No, but they also have the trade assets
to decide. Right, it isn't working like who's the next
It's not even who's the next dude to become available.
Let's go out there and create our own trade market,
basically like the Knicks did with mchal Bridges, where it
was all right the next thing to be willing to
move him. He couldn't be like Luka Doncic level. But
that wasn't someone they seemed like they were readily shopping,
but an opportunity present itself. The Knicks came over the
top of an offer. If they did that for this
is just an example, not advocating for it, though, I
would LaMelo Ball like if they like, if they went
out inside of he's the guy, they could get LaMelo Ball,
like they have the assets to do that.
Speaker 2: Do you think that Markinen could on this new deal
when he is eligible, be traded for a package that's
better than what the Warriors would not give.
Speaker 1: Up for him? Like prior to the extension, Well, what's so,
could you set the baseline for me?
Speaker 2: Well, so it seems like it was gonna be. What
the Warriors were wouldn't do was include Pajemski along with
I guess, like I imagine that if the Warriors were
willing to include Pajemski, the Jazz would have traded marketing
in for him Moody salary and like three firsts. Do
you think that market in will fetch more than that,
like hypothetically a year from now or eighteen months from
now or whatever? Because if the answer is yes or
like even a maybe, then suddenly the marketing renegotiating extent
is like totally makes sense because you're just preserving the asset.
Even if it's like what the hell are all these
young guys like marketing is gonna make us too good?
All the points he raised. I think, I think I'm
just trying to find the logic in it. And I
think if your answers yes to the question, then we've
sort of found some my I.
Speaker 1: Guess my argument would be just it's so tough with pods, right,
But I don't think if they move him next summer,
Let's say I would say they're going to get at
least that much.
Speaker 2: Like at least three first and whatever, right, Like, then
it's still I agree it this.
Speaker 1: Way because it doesn't sound like the Warriors are willing
to go to three first but like four pods like
and I think so if you did POD's moody and
two like, So let's say the equivalent of four first
round picks. Would that be fair or you think it's
a little bit more than that. I would say that
he would probably get at least that much next summer.
Speaker 2: Would be my, Yeah, two young guys you're gonna have
now you got more salary filler, but like two young guys,
two firsts and whatever it takes to make the.
Speaker 1: Money matter, Like we're like the young guy in three
first type deal.
Speaker 2: That's that's a plausible return for marketing, right, especially if
he has another year as good as the last couple.
Speaker 1: I guess, right, that's plausible. But then it's did they
are they punting on another opportunity to be as bad
as they can be?
Speaker 2: Great? Great question, Yeah, because they did it once and
maybe it cost some wimby. Maybe it didn't. If you
do it, if it's this now, it'll be a third year.
Last year didn't matter because the draft was bad. But
I don't know, maybe it cost some reed shepherd who
knows if you do it a third year and it
costs you Flag or Bailey or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I guess the way to look at it though,
would be if it costs you a top five pick, Yeah,
it might well, but they could be looking at it
this way though. Grant, how many teams in the wester
are you prepare to guarantee that they're better than if
they leave the roster alone like one?
Speaker 2: Maybe?
Speaker 1: And that's that's if Portland tears shit down.
Speaker 2: If your question is guarantee zero, that's.
Speaker 1: That's kind of the answer. So then it's okay, Now
let's go to the East. How many teams are you
convinced you know we're gonna be worse than Utah? So definitely, Washington, Brooklyn, Brooklyn,
and then it's like, okay, Detroit.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that's not a guarantee.
Speaker 1: And then it's just like there's Chicago, Toronto, and Charlotte
floating around out there where it's I think you could
say maybe one of those teams, yeah, will be better
than Utah. So we're four Let's say we're prepared to
guarantee four teams in the league, guarantee four teams in
the league are going to be worse than Utah. That
puts them at fifth and like if they need to
make up or spot or two, like that is something
you can do midstream by like hey, Colin Sexton, Jordan
Clarks and take some time off, or they could also
be a team. And I think this would make me
feel better about Again, we can't. This can't be part
of the great I'm just trying to understand their logic.
They could also act sooner, like you could probably maybe
you're not getting a lot for him, but like you
could move Collin Sextan in November rather than February.
Speaker 2: Right. No, I think as we're talking this out, it
feels like They're great is getting higher because the marketing
deal just it doesn't seem like it's creating the confusion
or the downsides that maybe it does. It looks like
it does on its face. I think, really, like Grant,
this is a weird thing to say about someone who
just got you know, two hundred and some million dollars.
But it's like it's almost like it feels weirder for
him than for Utah, because like, what does he want
to be He said he wants to be there, That
was a huge part of it, but like he's definitely
going to suffer through at least one shit a year
and maybe more. From the Jazz's perspective, it's like, cool,
if he's down for that, great and we'll trade him
when the time's right.
Speaker 1: I go back and forth on trying to give the
Jazz credit for getting Larry Market on board with this
versus they gave him an extra twenty four million dollars.
So I feel like, ultimately like I'm kind of in
the C plus range, I think because the vision's hazy,
but I think that their draft was above average. And
I mean, marketing, is it cost you cap space this
year which you could have used to get better, like
so that you weren't just like, oh, we're not gonna
be good enough, but.
Speaker 2: We might not get a top five pick anyway.
Speaker 1: So it feels like if there was more of a
like if you again this is this is a classic
team where it's like we'll have more clarity in the
regrades than we have right, which is true for all
these teams. But it wouldn't shock me if that grade
winds up being much lower or higher when we go back.
I just can't. I can't go higher than a C
plus for me. I don't know where you're at.
Speaker 2: I was leaning like a B minus just because I've
talked myself into the marketing deal just making sense now
because I think your point about like they're gonna be
it's gonna be really hard for them to be higher
than like the twenty fifth best team in the league,
Like if you're talking about guarantees or like high confidence levels,
like without marketing, then we're really talking about bottom four.
But with him, like I just he just may not
be good enough to offset all the youth and all
the other vets they may trade off, you know, as
along the way. So it can I talk you up
to a B minus because now I've suddenly gotten on
board with with the market and move after not.
Speaker 1: I view the Cody Willinguth pick is a plus plus plus,
so you could probably talk me even higher. Cool, So
we're going with a B minus. Yeah, which was your
actual grade.
Speaker 2: I'll pencil in a C plus for myself.
Speaker 1: But there is such a bizarre sp It's not a
bad spot, yeah, but it's not like an incredible spot.
Speaker 2: I think we just made sense of it. I think
we did a good job.
Speaker 1: All right, look at us. Where's that Paul rut meme?
But yeah, like, oh, this is actually your Golden State Warriors.
Speaker 2: All right, let's start with the most important thing they did.
They traded number fifty two, a Quinton Post for Lindy
Waters third lookout. Actually, like Lindy Waters got to Anthony
Melton on a one year, twelve point eight million dollar deal.
That's the full mL E. They're hard capped at the
first apron. That was probably gonna happen anyway. Kyle Anderson
three years twenty seven million in assign and trade. That
was part of the Klay Thompson exit. Also for Clay
Thompson in a twenty thirty one second round swap. Look
a look at that got it? How many other thirty
one second round swaps were there. Also signed Buddy Held
via sign and trade. Technically that was again priced into
the megadeal for Dallas's twenty thirty one second guaranteed for
two years and eighteen million is healed three million in
the third years guaranteed twenty seven to twenty eight becomes
player option.
Speaker 1: Steph Curry alright, interject, Is Buddy healed like a closet
mass murder or something? Why is that? I mean, I
know we went through this from Beasley and Garret Trent Junior,
but that is like zero leverage type shit that he
that he got.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I mean, it's well,
we'll talk about it as part of the grade. It's
it's hard to understand. Steph Curry sixty two point six
million dollars one year extension that'll be his age thirty
eight season. That's so now officially signed through twenty six.
Twenty seven signed rees, Speakman and Dayquon plowed into two
ways gone. Chris Paul he was waived. They couldn't find
a deal for him, so just didn't ultimately get anything
for him. Clay Thompson also gone. Obviously, Gary Pain the
second they picked up, picked up his own nine point
three million dollar player option. So Dan team looks a
little different. Got three rotation type guys Klay Thompson gone Bud,
he healed. Maybe a replacement for him, maybe not. I'm
curious of your thoughts on that. What are your initial
I guess maybe the question is what move or moves
are you focusing on here? Mostly as you're thinking about
the great.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the classic. You have to look
at everything. I think the biggest one is so Steph
wants to be there even if you're bad. Butts in seats,
that's great for them, and he's on the extension. I
think that it might be better. Okay, So what do
I view is the next most impactful move? I think
it's Danthony Melton. We need to see what his back
is like. But it's a one year, twelve point eight
million dollar deal, so that's the full mle. What that
does is this so you still have the flexibility of
he just comes off the books, but like with his
non bird rights, one hundred and twenty percent of that,
like you could also just resign him. So it's not oh,
why couldn't get a second year attached to that and
it's like they don't need it.
Speaker 2: That's why.
Speaker 1: So I thought that was actually like kind of what
flew under the radar a little bit. Not just the
Antey Mountain is good, but the Warriors set themselves up
really well. And just in terms of what I think
this team can do defensively now, like adding Kyle Anderson,
adding the Anthony Melton, not having Klay Thompson, the rotation
where you have Buddy Heels, that might be a little
bit of a wash. You know what you have in
Tray Jackson, Davis Draymond presumably won't be suspended for a
quarter of the season. I feel like they could do
some really interesting things defensively. I have questions. I think
Buddy Heel is valuable as a four S baser the
Anthey Mountain again, as just someone who like plays his
ass off on defense and then doesn't need the ball
on offense and will hit threes. That could work. I
really like when Lindy Water is the third, like there's
a motion shooting element to what he does and he
can get to his spots inside the arc as well.
I don't know if they plan on playing him. They
gave up a number fifty two pick that they ended
up purchasing back because Quintin Post is on this team
right now. I did not include that in the sheet,
so I I mean, I'm more curs here with your
thoughts than my own. But what do you view as
that just the I guess the biggest like emotionally losing
Klay Thompson is the biggest move, but like, what's the
most impactful move that will impact how they play on
the court?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I don't know. You have to the
macro question is really what I'm fixated on here, And
to talk about that, you have to go down roads
that the Warriors didn't, which is like they made a
play for Paul George before he ended up with the Sixers,
and they were very much apparently in on Laurie Markin
and didn't get him. So all of the acquisitions, I think,
go ahead.
Speaker 1: I have a question, Yeah, how much credit do we
because I think part of the grade has to be
like how committed are they to making the most of
steps remaining window? But how much credit do you get
because they went after Paul George and Larry marketIn? But
was it in a way that they were serious? Because
when you kind of look at some of the offers
that were floating around there for lowry market and it
was sort of they don't want to include pods and
they'll give you two first round picks. It's like, right, like,
what are you sending out at that point? And so
is this more for PR?
Speaker 2: That they tried it?
Speaker 1: Stephanely tried but Utah wouldn't trade him to us for
a discount.
Speaker 2: I think there's definitely a PR element, But I also
think that you didn't hear a whole lot of other
teams that were, you know, that far down the road
with marketing. So I think I think there was a
fair amount of legitimacy to that the issue. So how
much credit do they deserve, I'm not sure. I do
think they at least explored it. The problem is they
didn't connect on anything. And if your if your issue
with this team is despite having three new guys on
board that are all we agree positive value and our
rotation caliber or better guys, maybe you're even better net
with Melton and whatever than you were with Klay Thompson
and Chris Paul. Like that's a that's a credible argument
you can make, is these three new guys make the
roster top to bottom better than it was last year.
Totally legit case to make. The problem is, unless you
think it's gonna be cominga or Pods or good Andrew
Wiggins is going to re emerge somehow, there's no second
guy here to take the load off of Steph Curry.
And that is the problem with this team. If you're
trying to serve Steph Curry and make these last couple
of years of his prime worth it. We've talked about
this all the time, like it's just this is the
issue with this team is who's the guy that is
going to be enough of a threat for defenses to
not just send everything at Steph and make his life
so hard. They didn't do that. But so that's the criticism, right,
if you want to go below average, you could say
that they did not address the biggest issue they have,
which is super pressing because Steph is in his late thirties.
But are we sure Paul George or marketing at those
prices would have been enough to make this a top
four team in the West. I don't know, Like I'm
not sure.
Speaker 1: I think Paul George would have been But there's a
sustainability element to where now you've decided like after the
next two years, like we're absolutely fucked it and we're
just talking.
Speaker 2: About top four in the West, and you got this
a one year window maybe and you got no, like
your landing is rough after it, So like it's I
think maybe where they deserve credit is like not getting
stupid with giving up stuff that wasn't gonna make them
good enough. So if you're going high grade, I think
that's the way you look at it. For me more
so than like, oh I like Melton at twelve point
eight and I like Anderson at nine a year, it's
more just like they resisted the temptation to like do
the like, well, this is as close as we can
get to the type of move we need to make.
But it ain't it Like it's a kind of it's
like a low key, a complicated, I think set of calculations. Ultimately,
I'm above it. I'm positive on the season, I'm not
sure how on the off season, I'm not sure how
high I want to go because I'm super open to
the idea of like keep it simple. You have Steph.
You did not get him a number two guy that
is going to really move the needle. So take that out.
Speaker 1: Also argue I ultimately think I throw it out the
window the pursuits because they're mostly a good thing, But
you could also argue relative to the resources that they have,
like what were you actually actually expecting them? Like the
Paul George and Larry marketing opportunities were ones that kind
of arose in the moment. Maybe marketing we kind of
always floated around for them, but like they were sort
of an eleventh hour entry into the Paul George sweepstakes,
and it's just like they, yeah, they have stuff to trade,
but like they don't have the most navigab global books.
And I think we kind of saw that with the
Paul George discussions, was like the Clippers didn't want ter Wigins.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the thing that I'm having an issue I think
I'm I don't think I know on POD's I mean,
keeping Steph for another year is just big time objectively,
But like I'm trying to understand the theory of Kyle
Anderson on this team because I don't know like what
lineup constructions he fits into, and I know the playmaking
element is just like who is their second best passer?
I mean the two best so it's Dre and Steph,
but that I guess it's Kyle Anderson after that, am
I forgetting somebody?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Do we think it's Pod?
Speaker 2: I mean Pods is in the conversation probably, but yeah, no,
you're point taken like he I think the theory of
Anderson is he approximates some of what Draymond Greed and
Donal does on offense. And if you're not going to
get a second star to take the pressure off Steph,
getting a guy that who is out there like with
an eye towards just making plays for other people, which
Anderson is is like sign sort of a side door
approach to like how do we make it so Stepp
doesn't have to do everything?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But yeah, like Anderson is, it's a weird fit because
you like, the Warriors don't newsplash, the Worries don't have
a spacing big and so Anderson sort of like you're cramped,
spacing gets more cramped if he's.
Speaker 1: Out there and you can't like he's not playing with Draymond.
Speaker 2: Basically wouldn't. I wouldn't think, although like, hey, Draymond's a
good shooter now, you know, if you saw last year
isn't it once every half decade. He's a good shooter,
So have to wait till twenty twenty nine for the
next one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I mean, yeah, what are you thinking?
Speaker 2: I'm thinking in the B range just because I do
think it was to resist the temptation to give up
a bunch of young guys, and I think it was
ultimately the right decision for what was out there. And
and like even if we if we cut out the
last ten minutes where I turned it to like the
macro discussion and just look at the signings that they
made for what those signings cost, like, they're all good.
They're all positive value, right, Like even Anderson's tradable at
that number for value.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for sure. And so I have two follow
up questions for you though, based off their offseason. So
Klay Thompson out, but Kyle Anderson, the Anty Meltain buddy
healed in. Are they more or less likely to give
Moses Moody a real regular role?
Speaker 2: That's the I think they're equally unlikely, which sucks because
the guy just I mean, like he hasn't you know,
Warriors fans go nuts about him, and like he's had
stretches where he definitely deserves to play, But like, you're
playing Melton over him, aren't you. And I think you're
playing If you need someone to come in off the
bench to shoot, you're gonna look at Buddy Heel before
you look at Moody.
Speaker 1: But doesn't he sort of I mean in terms of
just conceptually, isn't he the bridge between the two or
the meld off the two, where so we need someone
who maybe gives us more volume than Melton, maybe moves
well off the ball better than Melton, but we don't
compromise our defense by throwing Buddy Healed out there. I think, like, Buddy,
you have fought at times in Indiana, but he's just
like not a good defender. So, but you're also trying
to juggle with the immediacy. But I don't know that
I've ever watched Moses Moody and looked at him and thought, well,
like he should just never be playing.
Speaker 2: I know, I think my take on him has sort
of evolved to the point of like he's always going
to be a pretty good option for whatever you need
from that position, but there has tended to be someone
who's like better at the one thing you might need like, oh,
we need to we need the capslock shooting, we need
the clampdown defense, we need what like. There's always been
somebody like it used to be, well we got some
put someone out there to guard somebody. It's like, well,
Gary Payton's on the roster, that's like why that guy
is in the league, so we're gonna pick him. There's
always been somebody who's been more of a specialist. That's
just it's been easier to justify putting out there. I
think Moody should play more than he does. I don't
know if the roster is set up any better to
allow that than it.
Speaker 1: Used to be.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: My second question was based off how this offseason unfolded,
with the reporting mainly and then even just the moves
that they made. Would you say that they are more
or less likely to go in on I guess you
would call it a consolidation trade if the opportunity presents
itself in the middle of the season.
Speaker 2: I would say. My cop out answer would be everything
depends on how Kaminga and Pajemski look before the trade deadline,
because if Kaminga is that second guy or plays well
enough to suggest he'll be that in a year or two,
then that changes the calculus. But ultimately I think they
probably just the fact that they were kind of looking
around and the fact that they got stepped for another
year makes me think they're more likely than you know,
I don't know, more likely than what like, more likely
than they were this offseason or just like, I think
they're highly likely to be in discussions for this type
of thing up to and through the deadline, and there's
a decent chance that they actually do something right.
Speaker 1: Because what I found fascinating is one I do think
it's harder to make those moves mid season, not just
in terms of what's accessible to you, but just conceptually
of are we going to have the time to integrate
this player or is this like we're kind of taking
a gap half season then, But then two, we've tried
to spend time who is the player that makes the
most sense or the archetype of player that makes the
most sense to them to go after, only to not
even come close to reaching a consensus on if that
player exists to elevate this team to contention. And then
you look at the players they looked at seriously, at
least per reports in Paul George and Larry market and
not like very good players, but not on the same web,
not the same archetype of whatever. And so it's are
they not that they are they haphazardly now considering making updates?
Are they just more open to it to okay, well,
the guy we get like, it's not going to be
the guy necessarily that fills all the boxes, but it'll
still elevate us. And so my read on it was
it does seem and maybe we're overstating how serious the
negotiations were, but maybe they're now opening the idea of, okay,
we would make a big move and we recognize that
there is no perfect move out there, so we are
going to quote unquote settle for just okay, this works,
it makes us better. But is it necessarily ideal deal
or does a guarantee us entry into title contention? That'll
be more so a matter of course than anything that's certain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think I think the simplest way to
put it is there was a clear willingness to explore
like a huge trade, and ultimately they didn't. They didn't
think the guys that were available justified what they would
have had to give up. And maybe that changes I
by February. Maybe it doesn't. I think I would say, well,
I do think they're still going to be very much
like proactive and looking for stuff. I think they're okay
with where they are because I do they clearly believe
in Pajemski, and I think they believe in Kaminga. No
extension yet, but he is eligible. I think they I
think certainly ownership to hear them, to hear Joe lakeb
tell it is like, well, here we've got two all
stars ready to ready to rock like starting this year,
in addition to Curry. I can't quite get there. But
you know me like I've been. I've been on the
Kaminga train from day one, and I realized how irrational
I am about it. But I'm okay as a fan
with Let's let's see what the young guys can do
and then if it doesn't like satisfy, we can start
looking at other stuff again, don't I'm with it? So
where are we ending up? I'm going to be I'll
go be.
Speaker 1: I think it be is fair. The next team is
your just giving them to you Los Angeles Clippers. I
don't want ownership of them, but they're actually by team
to go through. So they signed Tylero to a three year,
seventy million dollar a five year seventy million dollar extension.
Excuse me, pretty good move by them. We like Tyroue
Tyloo around these parts. They drafted Cameron Christie at number
forty six. They signed James Harden for two years seventy
million with a player option in twenty six, Derrek Jones
Junior three years thirty million.
Speaker 2: That was most of the non tax payer mle.
Speaker 1: They traded Russell Westbrook a twenty thirty second round swap
and four point three million dollars in cash to Utah
to get Chris done on a three year, sixteen point
three million dollar deal. The final season is not guaranteed.
They signed Kevin Porter Junior for two years four point
eight million dollars. He apparently had the leverage to get
a player option. Nicholas Patuma's back two years nine point
six million, that's at the bi annual exception, Mobamba one
year minimum and a Vita Zubats just a couple of
days before recording this three year, fifty eight point six
million dollar extension. Just for some context, that's gonna be
about twelve to thirteen percent of the salary cap moving forward. Uh, PJ.
Tucker picked up his eleven point five million dollar player option,
and Paul George grant. I don't know if you heard,
but he left and signed with the Sixers.
Speaker 2: Who what do you?
Speaker 1: I man? So yeah, take it away.
Speaker 2: So the issue that I have is, like, I like
several of the things they did. I don't understand drawing
a line on Paul George where they did, and then
going and giving hard and more money, and like you're
obviously willing to spend in general. I know it's not
a salary cap situation because it's a coach, but you
give Lou the extension he gives you. Now Zubats is
a salary cap situation because he's on the roster. You
give him the money. Like you go sign Batoom, you
bring on Chris Dunn for more than I thought he
would get, even though I like him. It's just like,
why why not just retain Paul George at that number
where there was interest around the league from the Warriors.
The Warriors reportedly would have paid him that the Sixers
did pay him. That there's a market for Paul George
at that number. This is the christ like the marketing
thing too. In the KCP argument, it's the same idea,
just keep the guy and then trade him if you
don't want him, Like you'll get something for the guy.
I don't understand letting him go over money essentially, and then.
Speaker 1: What's that N'll get to ash logic except they don't
have any young guys in the pipeline.
Speaker 2: Yeah, uets tast logic. So that that's where I That's
where I'm fixated, right, That is the core issue is
like why why not Paul George too? If you're doing
all this other stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, as you mentioned the other rooms, the
Zubots extension is gonna age fantastic. I like it. One
of the most effective RIOM protectors last year.
Speaker 2: I liked the Derek Jones junior signing.
Speaker 1: Now you couldn't have made Derek Jones junior signing or
and you also could not have gotten h Nicholas patuone
because you wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Have had the bi annual.
Speaker 1: Sure had you kept Paul George.
Speaker 2: That's fine. Now.
Speaker 1: My whole thing here is I've seen some people, and
I respect anyone's opinions that's prepared to elaborate. I said, no,
they're better off without Paul George. You already hit the
nail on the head when you said, then you trade
him later, or I'll take it one step further. If
you from the moment you extended Kawhi, if you weren't
prepared to give George the exact same deal which he
said and which other reporters have confirmed he was willing
to take in the middle of the season, you should
have traded him. That. That's it's inexcusable. You don't get
the hide behind the second apron when we know that
you offer him a deal that still would have put
you in the second apron. So the thinking would have been,
what he's on the books for an additional year over Kawhi,
trade him, or it's like maybe Kauhi still on the
books at that point if he signs another contract. There's
I don't understand the rational now here at all. The
only way that I think you could go back and
say that you understand it in a re great situation
would be do they find takers for Kawhi Leonard and
James Harden and get assets for that and begin anew
here's my issue. You still could have traded Paul George
and gotten asset. And I'm not even saying the Warriors deal.
Given the direction that they headed, I understand why you
wouldn't have want like if you had Andrew Wiggins on
the books through all this, or like I'd been even
more confused is to why not just pay Paul George
the extra? Yeah, okay, it's like double the money. Like
I'd rather have Paul George at double the money. So
why is this anything like you can like, I guess
you have to ask. I'll frame it this way. You
have to ask whether let's look at the moves that
we like. The Chris Done edition I think is good.
I like the Derek Jones Junior audition, the Nick Batum
recent getting him back good, of Vita Zoobox extension great,
the Tyler extension. You could have done either way. So
let's actually look at the moves that you couldn't have made,
like had you kept Paul George so Ken, Derrek Jones
Junior and Chris Dunn and Nicholas Batoum. How much do
they offset the F minus minus that they deserve for
the way they handled the poor Paul George situation?
Speaker 2: Good, good framing, not enough. It still feels like a
global f right just because it I know it's not
an either or. I think that that is the right
way to look at it. And and I know this
when I'm gonna posit here is not an either or.
I just like, why are you giving James Harden seventy
million dollars even though it's over two years if you're
not willing to pay Paul George the market rate for
his services? Because guess what nobody else has given James
Harden that money? Like, you're not trading James Harden on
that deal. I don't think maybe I'll be proved wrong.
Nobody views him as a positive Like I just like,
who wants a part of this? Like you don't have
to spend that on him?
Speaker 1: And then not first for and Wiggan's looney in a
first for James Harden?
Speaker 2: Yeah, shoot it if I just like, I know I'm
being like hyperbolic about the hardened thing, but like it
just doesn't square, Like I pick if you just let
Harden go if it's a money thing, and I just
I don't know, take.
Speaker 1: It one step further. Why trade for James Harden the
first place? If there's any inkling that you might not
want that you might not be able to or afford
Paul George or don't want to pay him. Why make
that trade in the first, Like yeah, to go all
in on the one season, Like I don't there is
I still think like the zoobots extend, like the Zubots
and Tylu extensions help, But it's I think the great
overall just has to be an f because there was
so many missteps then leading up to this point that
and it wasn't like they needed to see how like no,
you knew at bare minimum once Kawhi Leonard put pen
to paper on his extension, like you kind of knew,
and I guess his extension did it come after? It
came after the trade deadline?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: But like you you knew the numbers like that were
floating around out like this is this My point is
the extension didn't happen overnight, like these were negotiations that
were ongoing. And so if you weren't ever prepared to
give Paul George at least three years at the max,
why like why was he still on your roster past
the trade deadline?
Speaker 2: Well, and like just on the timing element of it,
they were both extension eligible before the season started and
I think we gave the Clippers good grades because they
didn't extend them ahead of time.
Speaker 1: But by the way Kui Leonards extension happened in the
middle of January. Okay, that makes it even worse, makes
it even worse.
Speaker 2: And it was already bad because like clearly there were
numbers out there a year ago right from now, and
and like it would be insane to think that like
George and his representation and Leonard and his didn't know
like kind of where the numbers were gonna be for
like as far as extension offers. And then the fact
that Kawhi signed is before the deadline, and then they
don't trade George because at that point you must know
if because we we talked about it, like, well, that's
a little weird that George hasn't signed an identical extension yet, right,
Like that's strange. It means I don't value him the
same way, so and trade him.
Speaker 1: Right, And at the beginning we kind of pen but
that's the benefit of finds. At the beginning, we pends
on it. Oh, it'll just happen. But then it got
to a point, so what are they negotiated? And so
I just and the stuff that they offered him was
borderline stupid. What was it, like the extension and then
we'll give you two for sixty if you pick up
your player option.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was coming through him though, and it felt
a little weird, like but point taken like that, So
it's just an f I even And that's with liking
a lot of what they did outside of the but
the George thing just feels egregious and it's a little
risky to pin so much of the grade on one move,
but like, it just it it doesn't make sense to
me from any perspective.
Speaker 1: No, it's the move that took them from Okay, if
things break right, they could be a title threat to
Like this team isn't in the like there's there's much
the path, Like are they in the top six, top eight? Like,
what's their best case outcome is playing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's it's got to be an
f like you just can't mess up the big stuff.
Speaker 1: Like this next team they have a little bit fewer
moves to grade. So all your Los Angeles Lakers.
Speaker 2: Alright, in mine, I'll take them. So they fired Darvin
Ham replaced him with JJ Reddick after a dalliance with
some other coaches. It ends up being Reddick four years
for thirty two million for him. Don't really care about
the numbers, but that's what it is. Drafted Dalton Connect
at number seventeen, Brownie James at fifty five. Max Christie
got four years and thirty two million dollars. There's a
twenty seven to twenty player option for Max Christy on
that deal. Lebron extended two years was an extension. I
can't remember a new deal anyway, two years, one hundred
and one point point three million player option on the
second signed Blake Hinson and Armelt triore to two ways gone,
Christian Wood or slash Sorry extension questions. Christian Wood, D'Angelo
Russell now on an expiring deal, Jackson, Hayes, cam reddis
picked up player options. So uh man. The party line
on this team is it's not different enough from last
year and you're not getting all these games from Lebron
and AD So where are we going with this one? Dan?
Speaker 1: I just okay. So I don't even know how to
grade the JJ Reddick higher. I do find it curious
that they went with another first time head coach when
you have Lebron going into his age forty season, and
I do think they've kind of telegraphed and even just
through some of the comments about like even do you
remember the framing of the JJ Reddick higher was, oh,
he'll be able to help like continue to develop Max
Christy and Austin Reeves, and so it seems like they're
trying to telegraph that they're really emphasizing the error beyond
Lebron James, which just feels brain bendingly stupid. When you
have Lebron James. This isn't the saying that JJ Redick
will be a bad coach. If that informs your other moves,
specifically your non moves of let's not make it any
trades to upgrade the roster, and like now you're like
you even have a roster spot crunch because you gave
all these other dudes and Cam Reddish and Jackson Hayes
and Christian Wood those player options, but then you got
Lebron and what was clearly like a pr thing for
like I guess him, but like he still took one
point three million less and now you're talking about, well,
you're within like one hundred thousand dollars. The second apron.
You've done nothing with that quote unquote flexibility, which what
I keep coming back to, by the way, is that
they could have just constructed a trade that saved them
two million dollars and aggregated that they finished below the
second Apron again, but it makes them look even worse.
And was that the point of what Clutch and Lebron
wanted to do of like the Lakers under the second
Apron and they didn't make a trade like, good for
you if hopefully that puts pressure on them to do
something before the season still or before the offseason. And
we talked about this with the uh what oh the
Timberwolves and Rob Dillingham. Do not sit here and tell
me you don't. You don't get to say this right now.
You can hope for it, you could predict it, you
cannot great it as a reality that Dalton connect is
gonna come in as the seventeenth overall pick and have
this immediate impact on a team that is trying to
win basketball games. It almost never works like that. Like, man,
they upgraded the Tory in print spot. No they fucking didn't, right, No,
they did not. This team has no wings? What is
Ruyachi Mora Cam Reddish or the closest they have to
like wings and the only one of those dudes is playable.
This is like it's not disgraceful because they probably weren't
gonna be that good anyway, but like it's like it's
just so it's so dumb, like just doing like how
do you do nothing? Do you do?
Speaker 2: You think? Which which team between the Lakers and the Warriors?
Is there more justified frustration with like not going for
it on a risky trade. It's got to be the Lakers, right,
it is well, no more justifiable to not no, like
if people are frustrated by Team X not going all
in on a like win now trade. Oh yes, I
think the Lakers are more just of that frustration than
the Warriors because the Warriors have actual young guys that
they might want to develop. The Lakers like don't have that.
So I just think this is like it's such a
talking head thing. But like you have Lebron, you have
ad even if it's not a perfect trade, even if
it's Zach Levine or whatever, Like, don't you have to
if you're the Lakers just go do something seismic because
you aren't good enough. You weren't good enough last year,
and your team is the same or maybe worse, actually
definitely worse when you factor in the durability likelihood for
Lebron and Ad than you were last year. So like,
what's what's the if the plan is we know someone's
gonna shake loose before the trade deadline and we're willing
to give up all the picks we can in Austin
Reeves and Dilo and whatever else to do that? Awesome.
I don't know who that is, and I don't know
if the Lakers are going to be in a position
in the standings to even justify doing that at that point.
So to have not done it now and get it
maximize the runway of a third of a three star team,
like just doesn't make sense to me. I don't, I don't.
It's not an F like the Clippers, but it's still
like it's rough.
Speaker 1: Why isn't it an F just because you still.
Speaker 2: Can go do something? The Clippers?
Speaker 1: I don'tay they turned down They didn't like they shouldn't.
You know, when you're looking at what actually happened this offseason,
what is the move that they missed out on? Like
Larry Marketing didn't go anywhere. They were never really linked.
I mean, they tried to get Klay Thompson and they
offered him way too much money.
Speaker 2: He sounds like to get him, So like do.
Speaker 1: We do we give them a demerit there, I just.
Speaker 2: Because that would have been stupid to give him that
much money.
Speaker 1: Maybe my read on this situation is that Lebron this
is gonna be Lebron's last season for the Lakers, and
then I would understand them doing nothing a little bit
more because he does have that player option and the
whole look you can play with Bronni doesn't carry as
much weight when he's about to get to play with
Bronni for a year. And so maybe I'm like still
living in the moment too much of a hyperbolic And
you mentioned maybe they make the all in move before
the deadline. If it's a situation of their waiting for
the Bulls to just train zach Lavine for contracts, they
get to keep all Austin reeves and their assets. We'll
come back and we'll we will tinker with our grade
from there. But your financial situation was restrictive, maybe a
little prohibitive. It was not unnavigable, and you still you
did nothing yeah with it, And so like that's in
like what do you I'm gonna ask what do you
like about their don't connect to number seventeen makes sense
for what they need. But we've talked about how unless
we feel passionately about draft picks being wrong or right
or steals, how you grade them as such? There it's
like this is at minimum of D minus.
Speaker 2: I mean, no, yeh, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 1: There's nothing dnus. Is that actually the correct rate of phrases?
Speaker 2: There's nothing on here that is an unequivocal like, oh, good,
I guess Lebron getting Lebron to come back, Like I
guess that's your that's your big positive grade. But like
I don't know he was gonna do that anyway, because
that's just it's not like that was a decision really
for him or for the Lakers. Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe it isn't F does it? Should it just be
an F?
Speaker 1: Maybe?
Speaker 2: I'm I'm we've had too many.
Speaker 1: It's so tough because it's okay, well, what is the
move that they passed on? Like what like they don't
have the s to go go create your own Dejante
Murray was probably someone they could have gotten unless the
Hawks didn't want like the Lakers picks, which when you
look at the Pelicans picks that they gave up, I mean, well,
I guess the Hawks got one of the Lakers picks
anyway next season, right, So admit, but it's an F because, like,
this is the situation where and I would have said
the same thing about the By the way, the Warriors
actually did stuff too, so it's not that they just
punted on a bigger move, like they found a way
to do other things and the Lakers did not. So
for me, it's an F. But I am sympathetic to
the idea that I'm like, I'm even looking at the
Max Christie extension, like why did he get a player option?
Speaker 2: I mean, is that just stay Let's get a mid
tier south even that's like I don't even know if
that's mid tier enough to really like matter. I guess
like if you're aggregating, maybe.
Speaker 1: What you could do is thanks to Lebron taking that
pay cut, there's no way for you to to do
that whatsoever. So I just and you didn't even get
the wiggle room to like so that you can trade
now with like a second Apron team and so like,
cause you just had like you're so close to the
second Apron that it's like, oh, we have like a
fifty thousand dollars cushion and trying to go.
Speaker 2: Like this, so bad are you? Are you receptive to
the cause I feel like whenever I make this argument,
not to you, but just in general, it like doesn't
land the way I think it should. But and I
already said it, like it's crazy to So if you're
if you're glass half fulling it and trying to not
give them an f trying to give them something better,
you would say, well, they didn't foreclose on their trade options,
they could still do it. But the argument that I'm like,
it's not they might be too bad to even justify
making that move at the time it becomes available. Right, Like,
if you're not, if you're I don't know, in twelfth
in the West or whatever at the trade deadline, you're
not like you'd be insane to trade your draft assets
and whatever for a for a zach Lavine or whoever
it is, because you're not gonna be so great you're gonna.
Speaker 1: Be in the play inning in Well, here's scenario to you, Okay,
what's more likely that the Lakers finish top four? Okay,
I'm actually gonna do it. What's more likely the Lakers
win a playoff series next season? Well, Lebron starts the
twenty five twenty six season on the Warriors.
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus Christ, I don't see well that second one.
There's no way that's happening. He's not gonna be on
the Warriors.
Speaker 1: Why him and step do you see the way that
like look at each other.
Speaker 2: He's opting out and taking the minimum?
Speaker 1: No, well, you could trade him?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 1: Why can't you trade him? Well?
Speaker 2: Like, what are the Warriors get? If that's gonna happen,
it's gonna be something crazy like that, where it's like
Lebron is going there to win a title and if
you have to trade a bunch of shit for him,
like the team's worse, Like you're not, well no more in.
Speaker 1: That situation is all a leverage, Like, Okay, it's probably
costing you picks, but it's picks and salary. You're not
trading pods or kaminga in that scenario. Why are the Lakers?
My own question that I think it's more likely that
Lebron's on the Warriors for next year than it is
the Lakers win a playoff series this year.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I hope you're right. I think it's
I don't think they're gonna win a playoff series, but
I would still view that as more likely somehow I
did a vacuum.
Speaker 1: Yeah sure, But what what about how the Lakers have
gone about their business gives you? I think we can
both agree, Like, if they don't make any changes, they're
not winning a playoff series.
Speaker 2: No, I don't see how it happens. Like I just
there's there's not a path towards that and the West
blah blah blah, the West is better all that stuff.
They weren't good enough last year. They're not going to
get the same high end production from their two best
players this year. Now it's the playoff series feels out
of the question, But so does the Warriors thing. So
F two f's for the LA teams.
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna let you talk me into a
D minus.
Speaker 2: If you want to go up to a D minus, No,
I couldn't. I couldn't cite. The only way you don't
make it an F is if you really do think
like I said that, there's a deal out there that
they're somehow aware of that they're keeping the powder drive
for and like that's just like there's too many degrees.
Speaker 1: My old thing is like how do you know? Like
couldn't they have been a team? Maybe he wouldn't have,
but he is repped by Clutch, Like, couldn't you have
figured out a way to get off of one of
your minimum contracts that you could have been the team
that got Gary Trenton Junior?
Speaker 2: I just thought, right, yeah, good had a role for
him for sure.
Speaker 1: I'm just so all right, So fs across the board
we are on too. I guess, as Grant said, they're
gonna be my Phoenix Suns. So they're my Phoenix Sons.
Speaker 2: Do you go through the murigo through them? Whose team
is this? Who just did the Lakers? I think it's
you because I remember saying Dalon connect last time.
Speaker 1: All right, nice, such a fun last name, by the way,
shout out to Liken. So the Suns fired Frank Vogel.
They hired Mike Budenholzer. He got five years, fifty million.
It's an estimate. Coaching contracts aren't always just public. They
traded number twenty two, which was Dayron Holmes a second
for number twenty six, which was Ryan Dunn. Number fifty
six that became Kevin mccullor junior, a twenty twenty six
second and a twenty thirty one second. Both of those
came from the Nuggets. They then traded number fifty six,
Kevin mccullar junior and Boston twenty twenty eight second which
is top forty five to ten, to the Knicks for
number forty ohsoe Gadaro. He signed a four year seven
point nine million dollar deal with three guaranteed years. Grant
Royce O'Neill got a four year forty two million dollar
deal is fully guaranteed and can go up to forty
four million with unlikely incentives. Tyas Jones one year at
the minimum, Bull Bull one year at the minimum, Mason
Plumlee one year at the minimum. They got Matty Morris
one year at the minimum, Damian Lee one year at
the minimum. Josha Kobe did not hit the minimum. Two
year sixteen million only the second season is non guaranteed.
They traded David Roddy for EJ. Ladell, who was subsequently
waived and stretched. They also waved and stretched this yere
Little in one of the more shocking moves of the summer.
He was going to be on the books now grant
for three point one million dollars per year through two
thousand and thirty two thousand and thirty one. They also
signed Jayalen, Bridges and Collins Giuseppe to two ways. Grayson
Allen's extension, by the way, will not be part of
this because that happened the middle of the season. Notable
exits include Drew Eubanks who is Utah, and Eric Gordon,
who is with the Philadelphia seventy sixers. And just on
the note of the new year, Little the Sun saved
roughly like I think it was nine hundred trillion dollars
in luxury tax payments off that, but it was really
I think it was like it's tens of millions that
they shamed off their bill. I think the exact number
was like forty or something wild. How do you feel
about their off season and minimum contract bonanza Part two?
Speaker 2: This is the genesis of my concerns about over valuing
minimum contracts. But I would say Tias Jones specifically is
not your run of the mill minimum guy, like that
is just like I don't know, mid tier to low
end starter at a position they desperately needed, so huge
win to get him at the minimum. I love Budenholzer
over Vogel. I think that was probably not an easy
decision to make because they've kind of been jumping through
coaches fairly frequently. It feels like I just think he's
an upgrade, and then you know, again, ultimately this is
just a team that didn't have a lot of options
because they've just painted themselves into a corner financially and
in terms of their trade assets and all this other stuff.
So like this is just still really good for what
they had available to them Jones in particular, and then
like the O'Neill thing four years forty two, I thought
maybe they'd go higher just to have like a salary
to trade. But so that almost seems like kind of
what O'Neill is worth, or it's not way out of
step with it, and he's still tradeable at that number
if they find someone that makes more sense. Yeah, I'm
mostly positive on it. I'm not going to telegraph my
grade yet, but like, even if I don't go crazy
on the minimums and the values there, because even like
plumbing and bull Bull or like, I don't know, I
like it. At a minimum, both of those guys could
actually give you something. Mostly in Monte Morris obviously too,
mostly positive. I think I'm leaning positive so above a sea,
but I'm curious how you feel about it.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty positive on it. I mean Monte Morris differs
from what they did last year in the sense that
this was very clearly someone who is not a minimum
level are taking a discount.
Speaker 2: Tias Jones mean, Tis Jones, Yeah, sorry, is that guy?
Speaker 1: Yeah? He which is a bummer because he didn't seem
like he was that guy a couple of years ago.
I guess what, I don't know if it confuses me
but concerns me, is it does exacerbate the non wing
situation of it all where it's okay, I know they
have a Kogie and Royce O'Neill at Damian Lee, Like
what is this team's like closing units look like that
like starting is whatever. But so if we assume that
be Ol Booker and Durant are locks for a closing
line up or your core lineup, Tias Jones, I'm assuming, okay,
we know he's starting. I'm assuming he doesn't come to
Phoenix if there isn't at least a distinct possibility that
he will have the opportunity to play in those higher
stake situations. And now it's all right, So Tias Jones,
Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, Kevin Rant who was fantastic defensively
for like half the year last season, you don't want
him shouldering that defensive load again, Like, who is it
Nurkic who was defensively than we expected? Is it Bobull
who had like in spot minutes, was pretty good around
the basket for them later in last year? Is it
Royce O'Neill, And like, you're just like Kevin Durant, You're big.
I like, and I don't know what else. I guess
the problem there is what were they supposed to do
to clarify this at all with the resources that they had,
So like, from a pure value perspective, it's they did
a really good job. I just don't know. Like the
Josha Cogi deal specifically is built to trade. I think
with Royce O'Neill that was almost built to trade down
the line because it's I don't know that teams that
are selling are gonna want Royce O'Neil for the next
you know, four years, three years after this season on
their books. And so I look at the Josha Coge
number as like, okay, that's eight. I think they gave
him an eight point twenty five million dollars starting salary.
That's the money they could take back. And that's the
kind of player I'm looking at as right, they're gonna
try and use him to upgrade their roster. I like
again still and it's still just it fascinates me, puzzles
me that this team was twelfth in defense last year
and you look at some of the stuff they did well. Again,
Kevin rant was great, Nurkicch was solid around the basket.
They did things like after they missed shots like they
were back, like they were back and set on defense.
That certainly helped them. They probably got a little lucky
on opponent shooting. I think opponents only shot thirty six
percent on corner threes against them. But I look at
this team and I know, maybe they have a better
coach or more inventive one, and Mike Budenholzer, I don't
know that I see a pathway to them being twelfth
in defense again, and like, but again, again and again
and on again times again again. What else were they
supposed to do this Austins that would have made me
feel better? So relative to their resources available, I don't
think it's just oh, we have to view it as positive.
It's you know, if we're gonna talk about teams not
willing to spend into the second apron, there's a I
know they wave this here little and they're saving tens
of million dollars in luxury tacks off that, but there's
a real financial outlay to paying both Josha Koge and
Royce O'Neil more money than perhaps their worth to other
teams on an annual basis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, Look, we've been trying to be consistent
with rewarding a team for to whatever extent it can
pursuing like the goal and for the Suns, the goal
is like winning today like now, and given what they
had at hand, like this is about as well as
they could have done, right, Like what what was there?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Like they couldn't have gone and used roster exceptions to
sign guys, they couldn't make you know, unbalanced trades. They
couldn't go do all this, So like over maybe overspending
on O'Neill and o'koge is the best they could do,
and then offering what they could, like offering a like
a playing time bonus to someone like Tyas Jones to
like break the tie between them and a bunch of
other minimum offers, Like, I mean, that's that's all you
could do. So, I mean, I still can't. I can't
go into the range just because that feels too high.
But I don't know, this is like a solid bee,
it feels like I mean, I especially if you really
think Budenholzer is better than Vogel, which like I kinda do, So,
I mean, I don't know, I just don't know what
what else you really realistically would have wanted the Suns
to do, unless unless you really thought, like blow the
whole thing up start over, which is just like I
couldn't do that. It's too unwieldy. It couldn't have been done.
Speaker 1: Do you think they're prepared to bring Bradley Beal off
the bench or sit him in crunch time?
Speaker 2: Well, actually, an answer to your question, I think, ultimately
I don't think Tias Jones maybe should close that much,
because I think you probably want O'Neil out there in
the center would be my guess. So, but he's on
the minimum. So if he's upset, like, oh, well, like
you're not gonna be back there. We tried, We have
Monte Morris. If he's healthy, he's pretty close to what
you are.
Speaker 1: So so here's what I'm struggling with as to why,
if we're doing this relative to resources, why is it
only a bee? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Just I don't have a great answer other than like,
it just feels like you can't give them an A
because there's not like a crazy move here. But you're right,
like it would be kind of inconsistent of us to
not give them some kind of A.
Speaker 1: I'd probably go like an A or an A minus.
Maybe we settle on a B plus because I think
what's tough here is like you didn't need I mean,
you wanted a roster spot, but like you didn't need
to wave and stretch this year, little like you could
have been playing though you know like it, but now
there's just that three point one million dollar hit on
your books.
Speaker 2: Like that.
Speaker 1: To me, I viewed that as more of a money
saving move than like, oh, we need to do is
to create the roster spot. Yeah, yeah, no, you could
have just signed like one fewer minimum contract then or
waived a minimum contract that you already signed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair. I mean I'd be
willing to go up to a B plus. I think
that's totally I mean, maybe that's even under selling it.
I just I don't know why I bump, maybe because like,
ultimately I think I don't like the position they're in overall.
But that's like that's the criticism of the last couple offseason,
Like I.
Speaker 1: Feel pretty good about them leading into this season, Like
I'm just assuming there's gonna be no Kevin Durant drop off,
and that's just like I think they feel a little
bit more evened out right now. But this will be
fascinating to regrade, because my guess is, I mean, would
you be fairly surprised if Joshua Kohe's spot just turns
into like if he's just on this team past the
trade that line, I feel like I'd be fairly surprised.
It seems like even if he hits his corner threes,
like we've seen this movie before, right, it's like they like,
like he's gonna be ready for the playoffs. No, Like
you don't get to play that card anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I I think I think it's But then
that's the point of that salary is is it's moved.
You know, it's something you can trade to someone for something,
and it's not guaranteed in the second year, so you
know whatever. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you're making me
feel like I'm being unfair and not giving them.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think you're being They did put themselves
in a situation where they could I so you could
also can just like you couldn't just give like you
could do some spicier things. And theory, if Joshakogy was
making more Royce O'Neill was making more, maybe again the
four year commitment with O'Neil that takes him through his
age thirty four season. I don't know how appealing that
will be the teams that aren't looking like it's just guarantees.
I don't know howpepealing it'll be, the teams that aren't
looking to win. But like, you know, you could have
just paid josh Akogey more and eaten the cost there
like that. I think that's a fair criticism of oh
cool eight You could take back an eight point twenty
five million dollar player ye, Joe. So are we going?
Where are we going?
Speaker 2: B plus?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, let's go B plus.
Speaker 1: This might have been the quickest team. They had a
lot of stuff done, but I think they they upgraded
the coaching spot. That's and by the way, I will say,
do I need to push for an A minus? They
put a lot of traction out of number twenty two, right,
twenty six two distance second too? Then I'm gonna do this,
harn't I need to go with an A on my end?
Speaker 2: All right, I'll allow an A minus consent this grade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a lot of runway had at
number twenty two, is it not?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It is. They did really flip that into more
than they should have gotten for it, and they probably
just Doron Holmes was going to get hurt too, so
that you know, if they knew that.
Speaker 1: Then I will say, I'm a little uncomfortable with how
many people think that. And I don't know. I'm sure
we fall into this trap too sometimes, But that think
that either Ryan Done Raga Daro is going to answer
some immediate questions for them next season.
Speaker 2: I just knocked it.
Speaker 1: I don't see it offensively from Done specifically, So all right,
we are on too. Wow, it's our final team grant
pouring out for the twenty twenty four offseason regrades as
we end with your Sacramento Kings.
Speaker 2: All right, I'll take them, Mike Brown after some remember
that little hemming and hang like, I don't know is
ownership going to do it? Three years, thirty million dollar
extension good for him. Drafted Devin Carter at number thirteen.
Left shoulder surgery means that pick is not going to
help them for a decent amount of time. Traded Sasha Vazankov,
Davion Mitchell number forty five, which was Jamal Shett and
Portland's twenty five second to the Toronto Raptors. Four Jalen McDaniels.
Jalen with an L, not Jayden with a D. Big
big difference there. Got Malik Bunk Malik Monk back for
four years seventy eight million. Thus the most they could
give him twenty seven to twenty eight is a player
option that'll be his age twenty nine season. Got DeMar
Derozen three years seventy three point nine million, ten million
of that is guaranteed for the third year of the deal,
part of a sign in trade that sent out Harrison Barnes,
Chris Duarte, an unprotected twenty thirty one pickswap A twenty
five second, a twenty eight second and cash Alex Lynn,
Jordan McLaughlin, Orlando Robinson in on one year minimums, signed
Isaac Jones and Isaiah Crawford to two ways. So Dan,
this to me is not just about DeMar Derozen and
how that all fits, because the Monk signing was a
big deal. Locking down Mike Brown was a big deal.
Even the Jalen McDaniels trade, Like in theory, that kind
of addresses a player type need that they had.
Speaker 1: So what do we what?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just hate to throw it to
you broadly with a what are you thinking here? But
or do you want to start with DeRozan? Because for
me this does actually I was going to say, like
circle back to the Derozean thing. Uh does the the
offensive boost theoretically offset the defense? Like? Where where do
you want to start? I'm happy to discuss whatever aspect
you'd like to.
Speaker 1: How do you grade the Mike Brown extension when they
so clearly bungled negotiations? Where with that leak and then
just to sign him like the next day or whatever
it was.
Speaker 2: There's just a little bit of Kings in there, still
just a little bit of Kangs. They haven't gotten rid
of all of it yet, is what i'd say about that.
Speaker 1: So getting to keep Malik Monk, I think it's good
that they were willing to pay him, but I think
it was clear that the market wasn't going to So
I just view that as I'd like, maybe it's slightly
above average in this, but like he wasn't getting that
money anywhere else because the team like it.
Speaker 2: He's a good player though, and like passing off of
driags is insane. It's a fine. It's a totally fine deal.
I guess maybe in conjunction with getting Derozen you might say, like, well,
now we're really overkill on like offense first guys, but
just vacuum that deals fine. Spoiler alert.
Speaker 1: I asked Greg Wissinger this for the Kings look Ahead
that hasn't been published yet, if Malik Monk technically becomes
a trade asset now because you have Derosen and he
said no, And they do provide very different skill sets,
but I mean, you have DeRozan and Malie Monk and
Daron Fox on this roster and you're trying to you
have to play Keon Ellis now, and so that's where
it comes back to the DeRozan trade. It's an offensive
upgrade and it's just that's just clear. But there are
concerns like they needed an outside in shot creator, they
needed someone to draw fouls, especially if they're not collectively
as a team getting to the basket as much. There
will be spacing concerns. I'm gonna be very interesting to
see how they're staggered lineups sort of unfold from this.
I am concerned about the defense now. They were sixth
from when Kean Ellis made his first start, which I
think was like February something, whatever it was, and Keegan
Murray defended everybody like he he defended some centers, but
he defended everybody. The problem with going from Harrison Barnes
to Demart Rosen is Harrison Barnes I think was overstretched
in one on one situations. You can't even hope to
put tomart Rosen in those situations. The bigger deal is
when you go look at like kind of the rim
data from Sacramento's non bigs they're tasked with contesting or
cleaning up a lot at the basket, Harrison Barnes like,
you can't use Demarta rose If you can, I've yet
to see it because I don't think any teams tried it,
So there are going to be issues there. Now you're
putting a ton on the shoulders of dearon Fox Keegan
Murray and Kean Ellis, and you have kind of shoehorned
yourself into like Kean Ellison and Keegan Murray. Whenever Demarta
Rosen and Demontese Bonus are on the floor, like those
two just have to be in the game, I would argue,
and then it's well, then how do you figure out
the rest of your staggering patterns? So I do think
while DeRozan is, I think in overall, when you look
at the trade offs that are being made, I think
it's an overall net positive this move, especially because the
opportunity cost wasn't huge, which is like a big like okay,
some distance seconds and that first round swap. Sure, But
I overall view it positively because it's two guarantee years
and if it's very disastrous, there's only the partial guarantee
on that final season.
Speaker 2: But I do think the.
Speaker 1: People who are just like, well, look at how good
they were defensively to close the year. Look at where
they finished around league average. I think even with the
improvement of Keon Murray, uh, Kegan Murray and having Keon Ellis,
that it might be harder to replicate that success. And
you now have to get into the nuts and bolts
of is the offense gonna be better enough closer to
twenty two to twenty three when they had basically the
best half court attack in the league and then that
dropped the basically league average last year? Have you done
enough to improve that to offset any defensive aggression that
you're gonna withstand. I don't know the answer to that question.
But even now when I sit here and say, like
the move is, like, all right, they need to kind
of trade for maybe another defensive type of wing like
that is it's not gonna be someone who's like your
core lineup is just set. It's Keigan Murray, Demonta Sebonis,
Daron Fox, Demart Rosen, and then it's okay, if you
want to get someone who's better than Kean Ellis, that
might be where your.
Speaker 2: Wiggled room is. Yeah, No, I think I think where
I land is ultimately, the overall talent on the team
is greater. The defense is going to be a real
issue because DeRozan is a bad defender and he's taking
over for one who wasn't as bad in Harrison Barnes.
I don't think Barnes at this stage of his career
is like a good defender, but DeRozan is like historically
just one of the worst at the position.
Speaker 1: So I think, please, I'm sorry to interject, do not
cite not you, nobody cite Tomart de Rozan's individual defensive raiding.
I beg you, No, I know's he got to play
with Alice Caruso, he got to play with Io de
souon mu I just I and Patrick Williams. There there's
an individual defensive rating is just It's not it shouldn't
even be a thing. I don't think I figuree.
Speaker 2: So so there's that side of it. The defense should
be worse unless you play guys that take some of
the bite out of your offense. Like that's if you
have Ellis and Murray out there. Like Murray's a little
different because Murray has real offensive value, but Ellis is
out there to guard mainly. So you there's give and
take there. That's weird. And then like again, the talent
on the team is greater, and the price for DeRozan
is like you just do that. You just take him
for what it costs to get him. I'm not saying
the undo this move, the problems it creates. I still
am like, I think there are a real potential Like, so,
what is this guy gonna do now on offense between DeRozan, Sibonis, Fox,
and even Monk if he's out there with those three
other guys, just because Sabonis does not have off ball
value really and like DeRozan is someone that I guess
I'm if you're really bullish on this, you're just banking
on the talent between Fox, Sabonus and DeRozan and then
Monk just figuring it out, like figuring out how to
minimize the lack of spacing, the low volume three point
shooting from a couple of those guys totally totally possible,
not a given to me. Like I do think they're
scenario where we look at this team it's like, oh
my god, the offense like this doesn't make sense. This
doesn't work, especially if you start thinking about DeRozan, the
age that he's at like this guy has felt like
he's been on borrowed time as an all offensive player
for like five years now. Maybe his skill set is
such that it's like it's clearly such that it's more
age proof than most. But we're getting into like mid
to late thirties now where it's like, at some point
you just aren't able to do this anymore. Yeah, that's
on the table. Still do the d Still do it
ten times out of ten, just saying to me, this
is overall because the talent's greater, because you got Brown back,
because you got Monk at a market rate deal. This
is an above average offseason to me, But I'm not
prepared to say it's like, oh A range even B
range unless you have more to say. I think I'm
telegraphing where I'm going, but like peel C plus.
Speaker 1: To me, I was thinking B minus just because I think,
like getting off of the whatever the Vizankov issue turned
into that that's i'mdoing a mistake from last year. And
unless you're like super I mean in Portland twenty twenty
five seconds, not nothing sure, And Jamal Shd a lot
of people are higher on his defense. I just the
Mike brad extension was good. I think to keep him,
you brought Malik Monk back, and I think I even
like kind of something like the Jordan McLoughlin Orlando Robinson
things on the margins where it's McLoughlin like that could
come in, especially with Devin Carter injured, if you need
someone who can maybe guard in the back court. Okay,
there he is. What I also think this does, and
maybe this is you can ask me or you can
tell me if this is not shouldn't factor in the grades.
Because of the way they operated this offseason, it makes
me think that they're gonna be quicker on their feet
to make moves during the season, and I value having
that because we haven't seen it since the Sabonis trade,
like the Sabonis alburn or they's done jack shit in
the middle of the season.
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to view them favorably because they
preserved some flexibility, I guess, but I think I think
I'm almost pricing that into what a good like value deal.
The DeRozan acquisition was like, I you know what I mean,
I'm kind of thinking of it the same way. You
didn't give up a bunch of that stuff to get DeRozan.
So I'm sort of pricing what you're talking about into
the DeRozan trade, and you know what I mean. Like,
so I'm I'm viewing that positively too, just kind of
from a different angle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what now that I'm just I'm kind
of looking at it like that was a like that
davy On Mitchell is so curious, like you had to
give up stuff like the Portland twenty twenty five second
when you also want to give up two additional seconds
and the de Marta rozen thing. That's like an I
guess a neutral move at best, because I don't think
Joe McDaniels is going to play a role in theory.
He's an archetype of player that could help. How many
teams have now said that only to find out it's
not true all I think I even said when Philly
traded for him a couple of years ago, I was like, yeah,
what a don't move. C plus feels fair, So I'll
say B minus for myself, but C plus is a
podcast grade feels fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, like there's a lot there's real upside if
maybe the offense is like top three again or whatever.
You know, it was number one a couple of years ago.
Maybe maybe it gets there. It's just like, I don't
think it's reasonable to say because we added a twenty
five point per game score, like weird, our offense is
great now. It's like it's a little more. The fit
is a little more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: So I feel like when it makes sense to wrap up,
I can read off the grades that we came to
as a podcast for every team. I have a question
first though, Oh, I'm not going to edit this out.
Do you remember what we gave the Spurs?
Speaker 2: Hmm B.
Speaker 1: I left all three of our fields blank.
Speaker 2: Good question. Let's see, I'm trying to trying to time travel.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was a B.
Speaker 2: I think it was in the B range. It wasn't
an A. H. I don't think we're going with a B.
Speaker 1: If you listen to the Spurs segment and it wasn't
a B. Uh, I don't. I don't know why I
didn't put it in there, but hey, we're trying to
multitask here. So here we go, and I'm gonna go
through the entire league because the East is now done.
The Atlanta Hawks Hardwood Knox has given them a C
minus for their offseason. The Boston Celtics got a flat A.
The Brooklyn Nets got an A plus. The Charlotte Hornets
gotta B. The Chicago Bulls got an F because Grant's
a coward and wouldn't let us go with an F minus.
The Cleveland Cavaliers gotta be. The Dallas Mavericks got an
A plus. The Denver Nuggets got an F again Grant
trying to be the voice of reason here. The Detroit
Pistons got a C plus. The Golden State Warriors gotta B.
The Houston Rockets got an A minus. The Pacers got
a D plus, The Clippers got an F. The Lakers
got an F. The Grizzlies got a D. That's a
really rough stretch of teams, my god, D minus for
the Grizzlies, though. The Miami Heat gotta B. The Milwaukee
Bucks gott a B plus. The Minnesota Timberwolves gotta be.
The New Orleans Pelicans got a D plus. The New
York Knicks gott a B plus. The Oklahoma City Thunder
got an A plus. The Orlando Magic gotta C. The
Philadelphia seventy six received an A plus. The Phoenix Suns
got an A minus. The Portland Trailblazers, Why do what?
Speaker 2: This is wrong?
Speaker 1: The Portland Trailblazers gotta be minus. I had them as
an A plus for a second.
Speaker 2: That was generous.
Speaker 1: The Sacramento Kings got a CE plus. The San Antonio
Spurs we think gotta be. The Toronto Raptors gotta see
the Utah Jazz gotta be minus. And the Washington Wizards
of Grant Hughes fame. So Grant Hughes Washington Wizards gotta
B plus. We did it, and it only took us
six hours of podcasting to come to our consensus. Hardwood
Knocks twenty twenty four off season report card grades.
Speaker 2: How do you feel?
Speaker 1: How are you feeling, Grant.
Speaker 2: I mean, outside of forgetting, like within the same hour,
what we gave a team. Let it not be said
that we are anything less than thorough.
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope we gave them like I hope
we game like a seed plus or something.
Speaker 2: And I really hope we're way off. Yeah, I really hope.
So just because I feel good, I feel like, you know,
there's I already can see like there's three or four
teams that the regrades are going to be really really interesting.
But yeah, I feel good. I feel like we have
We're ready for the season. Now it's sick we got
like almost two months.
Speaker 1: We should you want to go back and grade our regrade,
regrade our regrades of the twenty twenty two offseason.
Speaker 2: Kind of, we'll just see what happens. We'd be really
accurate by now.
Speaker 1: By the way, I think this is going to be
the first time you and I have put out a
three hour podcast like single episode, so here's hoping that
it does more than five years downloads. Are you ready
to take us out of here?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: Yeply couldn't be.
Speaker 2: I got another hour, and you know, I really want
to talk about the you know, so thanks everybody for watching,
for listening three hours. Good for you if you made
it through the whole thing and didn't just listen to
your team, but we love you too. If that's all
you did, I would do the same thing. Probably remember
rate review. Dan dislikes that. I'm just trying to be
honest with the audience.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Three I look at a three hour podcast and I'm like,
how sick am? I says the guy wearing a matching
out Sicko shirt with his fellow inmate asylum on the screen.
Thanks for watching, Thanks for you for listening. Rate review, Subscribe,
Tell your friends, Tell your enemies, Join our discord, check
out our merch. Dan and I are wearing it right
now for you. The hat is behind me, right on
my shelter. What if I put the hat onto.
Speaker 1: You should throw it on right now.
Speaker 2: Hats on. Tell your friends, Tell your enemies. Shouts Frank apologies.
Jared Allen