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Speaker 1: All right, so we have open for him if anybody

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would like to bring questions or Q and a father,

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Deacon and I and the other mods are here, So

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is anybody in the chat, any challengers, any questions, any topics,

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bring it forward.

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Speaker 2: We're here.

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Speaker 1: I even have my white boy white board right here,

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got my white board.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I had a quick question someone mentioning your last stream

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about God it being pure act in the incarnation, how that.

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Speaker 4: It's an issue, it's problematic. And you said that.

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Speaker 3: Something along the lines of how if he's always actualizing everything,

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and he's actualizing one hypostace, he's wise and he actualizing

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the other two?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: So could a Roman Catholic counter that by saying that

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he can't actualize the other two because it's logically impossible.

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Speaker 1: Now, the argument is not that he's actualizing other persons.

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The argument is that a being that is pure act

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has to have something other than himself or itself to actualize.

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That's what in Aristotle the word means. So Aristotle believes

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that the first cause is a first actualizer. He's pure energy,

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pure action, so there's always something other than himself. Now,

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the reason that we don't apply that argument necessarily you

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could make an argument about generating of the sun, right,

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because if God is pure act, then what is the

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distinction between generating and spirating? There would be a real

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distinction in the trinity, right.

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Speaker 2: But this is just to speak of.

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Speaker 1: God in essence, definitionally God via a substance as pure act.

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And the problem is that in Aristotelian philosophy, pure act

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means that he's eternally pure act. He's always pure act.

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To act means to actualize. He's not actualizing himself, so

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Aristotle said, he's always actualizing the other, something other than himself.

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So the argument is not about other persons. It could be,

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but it's not about that. It's about creation. Aristotle believes

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that there's an eternal prima materia prime matter, that the

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first actualizer is eternally actualizing.

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Speaker 3: Does that make sense, yes, because if that's what he is,

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by definition, he is gonna necessity of actualizing something.

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Speaker 2: From all eternity.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's never a time when he wasn't actualizing

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creation and then he changed to become the actualizer of creation.

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That would mean if that happened, that would mean he

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has potential and in Roman cality theology, in terms of

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especially termism, but generally speaking in Roman caality theology, God

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has absolutely no potentia, no active or passive potential in

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any sense at all period. That's why Basil says in

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hexham On two that Ariostotl's argument is stupid because if

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God is an eternal actualizer as a first principle, then

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he must have a second principle that.

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Speaker 2: He always actualizes.

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Speaker 1: So there's a necessary relationship between the actualizer and what

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he actualizes, between God and cretient creation that's an eternal creation.

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This is not my argument, it is Basil's argument.

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Speaker 2: In hex summer On.

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Speaker 1: Two, he says Aristotle is stupid because he has a diad.

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So that's why it's two persons is because the material

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world that the first actualizer is eternal actualizing, is itself

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another eternal principle. So Basil says, well, that's basically a

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two headed God.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: But I thought that the idea of him being pure

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act causes problems for the incarnation.

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Speaker 1: I thought someone it does, because how does one hypostasis

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enter into a mode of being that the other two

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do not?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's where I was going to ask could

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counter that by saying that the other two can't enter

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into a motive, be because it's logically impossible or something.

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Speaker 1: Why would it be logically impossible for the Father and

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the Spirit to do it but not the son. I mean,

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I don't understand how that's even a coherent argument. It

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just sounds like that. That sounds like an ad hoc rescue.

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The problem is with the doctrine of simplicity and then

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with the doctrine of pure act. They're defining God in

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essence as pure act. Same Aximus does not find define

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God in his essence as pure act. He defines God

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as pure act in contrast to creatures, but in essence

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we do not know what he is. So they collapse

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the two distinctions. They collapse economia into theology proper.

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Speaker 2: Do you understand?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: And yes, you could take the look the pure act

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simplicity argument will apply to any level of distinctions in

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God if you wanted to, right, So, in other words,

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we could apply it to the distinction between generating aspirating.

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Is that a real distinction?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Okay, then is it something that's in the essence? How

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is God pure act? If there's two different things going

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on in God?

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Speaker 3: Right, and then their other doctrine of absolute device simplicity

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probably doesn't even allow for distinction.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean there other doctrine?

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Speaker 3: Well, if God is absolutely simple, how can you have

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distinctions with himself?

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Speaker 2: Right? Right?

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Speaker 1: So, in other words, modal collapse argument does point out

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problems in any attempt to make distinctions in God that

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are only virtual, nominal, or conceptual. Okay, the distinction between

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generating inspirating is not virtual, it's not nominal.

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Speaker 2: It's not conceptual.

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Speaker 1: It is, but it's it's you can conceptually distinguish because

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it really distinguished. This is the whole paper cat epinoia

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that Bradshaw has. So can we make a conceptual distinction

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between generating inspirating in our minds?

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Speaker 2: Yes? How can we do that?

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Speaker 1: Basil says, because it's a real distinction. What your mind

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is predicating is predicating on the basis of what's really distinct.

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Because there is a real distinction between generating inspirating, you

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can really distinguish those things in your mind. And some

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distinctions are purely conceptual. Right, The distinction between a bachelor

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and unmarried man is a conceptual distinction. There's not a

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real distinction and reality between those two things, right, but

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in our mind we can distinguish them linguistically. But there

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is a real distinction between the son and the spirit,

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because there's a real distinction between generating and spirating. Okay,

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So is that an action of the essence or an

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action of the persons? Well, it's an action of the

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person of the Father. That's why you have to begin

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your trinitary theology not with the essence of God, but

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with the person of the Father. And that's what the

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Cappadocians do. So the Rummachotholic just simply don't accept constantinople

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One and the Cappadocian teaching. And they think they do.

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They can say all day long that they do, but

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in fact they don't. I'm almost done with this whole

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PhD thesis on that very topic, right, basil Cesareegravanessa in

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the Transformation of Divine Simplicity. The whole book, the whole

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PhD thesis is about the fact that the Cappadocian doctrine

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of divine simplicity and distinctions in the trinity is different

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from the Augustinian, Latin and Sealmian Thomistic West. Well, yeah,

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I mean, why is this even controversial?

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Speaker 2: How many?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we had medieval councils called the Palamite councils

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that already told us this one thousand years ago, so

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we shouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Even have to debate this ears ago. Anyway. I'm sorry,

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go ahead, Oh I know that was it?

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Speaker 4: Thank you?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 5: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Anybody else in discord? Anybody else next up?

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Speaker 6: Is it cool if I ask Father Deacon a question

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on this interpretation of scripture real quick?

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Speaker 2: Or is that not?

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Speaker 4: Okay? Father Deacon in I'm inquire, by the way, So

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this is just a question.

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Speaker 6: In Mark nine through eleven, it says after the Christ

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is baptized, it says a voice came down from heaven.

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And I was just wondering if Jesus was the word.

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I know that the Father was talking to him because

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this has the spirit also descended upon him like a dove.

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So if Christ is the word, how was the Father

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talking to him?

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Speaker 4: If that makes sense?

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Speaker 7: So this is mark.

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Speaker 6: Mark one nine through eleven. It's right after the Christ

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is baptized or when he's being baptized.

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Speaker 7: Well, plan, I actually say, as far as I understood it,

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it was the.

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Speaker 8: Father.

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Speaker 9: You actually they speaks just because price is the word.

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I don't think that it's God the Father from speaking,

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so it's Mark.

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Speaker 4: One nine through eleven.

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Speaker 6: That was just kind of my question was the So

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the Father can speak, it's not only Christ who can

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speak from the heavens.

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Speaker 10: Divine actions, so it will be from the Father through

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the Son in the Spirit, and that's that's also maybe

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why all of us are present, right.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that is important to remember is that

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not every reference to an action is identical to a hypostasis.

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So sometimes the scriptures speak of different actions or that

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will refer to different persons of the Trinity under different

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energies or actions or attributes. For example, in Ezekiel, we

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saw the Son being referred to as the glory of God. Now,

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the person of the Son is not identical to the

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glory of God, because the glory of God is something

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shared between Father, Son, and Spirit. But the Son has

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a unique way or role or mode that he manifests

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the glory of God. And this is the doctrine of

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energetic manifestation or energetic procession. So every energy of God

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is common to all three persons. However, the persons have

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a unique mode or tropos by which they manifest that energy. So,

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for example, in creating, creating of the world is a

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unique trinitarian action. However, each person in the trinity has

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a unique role in actualizing that action. So the Father

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is the origin of creation, the Son is the archae

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or principle through which creation comes to be, and the

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Spirit is the perfector the mover.

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Speaker 2: Of the created order.

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Speaker 9: And like we have this word perry caesis.

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Speaker 7: Literally just it's like a inner dance, but it's as

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the sharing.

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Speaker 5: Of these actions of properties within the trinity.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so they all have the same will, they just

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have different modes of enacting their will.

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Speaker 4: Correct, Okay, thanks guys.

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Speaker 1: So just like in redemption, right, redemption is a trinitarian

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work or action, but the persons have unique roles in

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the process or action of redeemings. So, for example, the

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father's role is not to become incarnate. The Father's role

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is to send the son.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Jesus always refers to this, especially in the Gospel John Right,

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the Father sent me blah blah blah. The son's role

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is to take on human nature right to become incarnate.

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And then the spirit's role is to save, sanctify deify,

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et cetera.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that makes perfect sense, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So remember that role or mode is very very important

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both to triadology and Christology.

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Speaker 2: That's not modalism.

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Speaker 1: Modalism is a triadological heresy that unite or that identifies

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all the persons. But tropos or mode is crucial to

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trinitarian and crystological formulations because all mode is is talking

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about how a thing is. So remember that person answers

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the question of who, Nature answers the question of what,

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and mode answers the question of how a thing is.

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Speaker 2: So the mode of.

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Speaker 1: The trinity is different in theology proper versus economia. This

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is why we don't we don't read economia back into

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Trinitarian theology proper.

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Speaker 4: And all the modes just go back to right.

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Speaker 6: It was created by the Father through the Son, or

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I forget the saying I'm new to the whole right.

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Speaker 1: So this comes from Saint Basil. Basil's dictum is from

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the Father, through the Son and in the Spirit. And

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that's a liturgical refrain that gets adopted and becomes kind

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of the norm for Trinitarian formulations all the way up

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into Saint Gregory Palomas in the Middle Ages, so basically

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nothing in Trinitarian theology. After the Second Ecumenical Council, everything's

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pretty much settled.

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Speaker 2: For the East.

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Speaker 1: There's a little bit of debate in early Byzantium about

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Trinitarian formulations about the offering of the Sun in the

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liturgy thy know and of thy own. There's actually an

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early Businessine debate about that what that means. But aside

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from that up into the Trinitarian theology doesn't get debated

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again or stated again until the Palamite Synods and the

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Palomite Synods clarify further post constantinople Ie what the meaning

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of the plane of hyposthetic origins is distinct from the

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plane of energetic procession, distinct from the plane of economia.

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So crucial to understanding Orthodox Trinitarian theology is these three

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planes PLA n E. Of Trinitarian existence or reality. This

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is from Saint Gregor Palmos. The first plane is where

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we begin our Trinitarian theology. Hypostatic origin, the person of

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the Father as the sole cause, and the person of

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the Father is the sole cause of the generating of

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the Sun and the inspirating of the spirit. That's the

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only way that we consistently through then a relation of

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origins right, and relation to persons distinguish the trinitarian the

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hypostaces of the Trinity. The second plane of Trinitarian theology,

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which is not really present in Roman Cauviity theology, is

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energetic manifestation. We have a crucial doctrine of the energies

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that is necessary one hundred percent to our trinitarian theology.

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This is one of the reasons why the Tomos and

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the Palmite Synods of the Middle Ages reject philioque is

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because we do not collapse the things that we're saying

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about energetic manifestation into hyposthetic origin. And the Roman Catholics

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do that, and that's why they believe in philli oqui.

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They don't have this level of distinction that we possess

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where we distinguish the eternal energetic procession or manifestation of

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the actions of God or the Holy Spirit from the

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Father through the Son in the spirit. Right, that's distinct

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from hyposthetic origin, and it's distinct. It's related to economic procession,

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but it's distinct from the economia. Then we have economic procession.

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A third level right of the role of the Sun

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in creation and the role of the Holy Spirit in

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creation and economia, trinity in time and space and history

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and redemption.

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Speaker 2: You can't read that back into.

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Speaker 1: Trinity proper, meaning the first two layers, the first two planes.

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Palamas uses the phrase planes of existence in the trinity.

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It's not saying that there's different trinities. It's just making

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distinctions in the trinity.

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Speaker 10: But it's a super stupid augment that economia needs to

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perfectly reflect theology, because otherwise it wouldn't be no economy

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and theology and inter thing. You said, like, it's actually

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straight from here and there. So that's from the second century.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a good point.

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Speaker 9: That was the idea of the.

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Speaker 10: Spirit, you know, being perfected and stuff. This is this

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is very early.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I should add it. I wouldn't want to give

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the impression that Basil invented it. Basil just made it

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basically part of the liturgy.

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Speaker 6: So so, and then the philioquay just undercuts all three

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planes that power must present it.

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Speaker 4: That's why we know that the philioquay.

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Speaker 1: Is well, it doesn't undercut all of the three planes,

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because most Roman Catholics at least make a distinction between

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theology proper and economia. But they don't understand or typically

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see why we make a distinction between hyposthetic origin and

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energetic manifest So they will say, look, Philly oak Way

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when when Basil or when John Damascus when they talk

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or Athanacious when they talk about the manifestation of the

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spirit through the sun, that's no different than Philly Okuay,

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it all means the same thing. No, it doesn't, because

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Roman Catholic theology does not have a clear energies doctrine.

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Speaker 2: We do.

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Speaker 1: You can see this in Athanacious. This is why I

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tell people ad nauseum to read the Fluorofsky paper on

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Athenacious and Creation, because Fluorofsky shows that Athanasius teaches the

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us and synergistinction. And one way he does that is

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to distinguish between things that God does in the intratrinitarian

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life right, like generating a son or manifesting his glory,

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and those are distinct from the actions that relate to

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the created order, like providence or creating right. God is

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not eternally provident. He's eternally provident in the sense of

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having the potentiality or the power, but he's not internally

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actualizing providence. This is again we go back to the

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motial collapse problem. Right, if God is pure act, then

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it is he eternally purely actualizing providence. Oh okay, well

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then there's an eternal creation over which is provident. But

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no Roman Catholk actually professes that, right, so again it's

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not it's a little more nuanced than then. They're collapsing

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all of the three planes of existence in the trendy

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into one. But they're confusing the first and second plane,

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and they don't see why there's a problem or why

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you need an energy's doctrine. And they simply depart from

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the first seven councils because the seven councils hinge multiple

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arguments on the essenceenter distinction. So their theology, their trinitarian theology,

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is all jacked up.

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Speaker 2: That's the point.

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Speaker 4: Perfect, Thank you so much man. Yes, sir, we do

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have a Muslim who said they asked to go so whon.

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Speaker 9: He had two quick questions he wanted to ask if

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we have time for that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we'll do the Muslim and then we'll do a

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reform stoic who's ready here to expose this all a

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s KGB.

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Speaker 2: So go ahead, and mister.

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Speaker 1: Muslim, that's fight Douglas, a Muslim named President Douglas.

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Speaker 10: My question is, real quick, just can you come to

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the conclusion that God, a God exists without using the Bible.

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Speaker 4: That's one of my questions.

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Speaker 1: In one sense, we would say that there is an

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inner intuitive sense that all men have, according to Romans one,

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in their heart of hearts or their news, that there

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is a God and that we have offended against him

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and that we're guilty because we have the law of

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God on our heart. So that's what I think Paul

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is saying in Romans one. But if you mean through

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rational deduction of looking at the natural world, do we

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do this natural theology exercise to getting back to a

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first cause? Some people might do that, but whether they

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can give an account for that is a different question,

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and I don't think they can.

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Speaker 4: Okay, thank you.

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Speaker 11: My second question is can you gain salvation without full

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knowledge of the Trinity in this day and age?

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Speaker 2: Well, we don't believe that. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Full knowledge of the Trinity is a purely rational exercise,

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So it's not like you've got to go get a

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thhd to be saved. Because you know, we believe that

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there's infants who are going to be saved, right, And

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this is partly why we baptize infants, and we don't

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think that everybody who is in the church has to attain,

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you know, a high level of intellectual capacity to be saved.

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I mean, you can have slow boys that get saved.

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I'm sure there will be plenty of slow boys who

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are saved and plenty of theologians who are damned. So

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there is, at least from God's perspective, I mean, and

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God knows this, you know, some degree of knowledge that

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is applicable to to whom much is given much is required,

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is what the way I would put it. So when

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Jesus has asked this question of the Gospels, he kind

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of says, to the degree that you have been gifted,

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that is the degree to which you will have. You know,

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you will be judged on the basis of that requirement.

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Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Okay, the mike, here we go.

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Speaker 2: My MIC's broken.

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Speaker 1: Our discord has the amazing power to completely obliterate every microphone.

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Have you noticed that literally nobody's microphone works in our

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discord And it's purely a touch.

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Speaker 11: Uh oh, here you're here, let's gold.

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Speaker 9: Let's get it. Jay, I'm a big fan.

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Speaker 2: By the way, first of all, oh yeah, I bet

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you are sure.

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Speaker 1: And second of all, I never said anything about KGB.

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Speaker 9: I just said CIA bro. Yeah, that was You're trying

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to group me in with other people. I'm a I'm

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a lone wolf.

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Speaker 2: That was my joke.

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Speaker 9: You ever heard of a tripid corp Lance Cantrell? I

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exposed them on my channel.

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Speaker 2: Man, he was.

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Speaker 12: Dressed up like a Maleman in my neighborhood.

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Speaker 9: Isn't that nuts?

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Speaker 2: Right? Are you a troll? Are you? Are you a troll?

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00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:51,759
Are you here to debate.

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Speaker 5: You?

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Speaker 1: Remember, I don't know I have no idea who you're

403
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,599
talking I don't know who you are.

404
00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:58,279
Speaker 2: I don't know who you are. I don't know what

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00:21:58,319 --> 00:21:58,960
you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: You you can have the Well, even so the Israeli debated, correct,

407
00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:04,039
you do remember that?

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Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 9: Oh okay, Well I exposed him as a.

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Speaker 2: I don't care who you've exposed. Do you have a

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00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:13,519
topic to that, dude?

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Speaker 1: Nobody cares about your channel and your ex Nobody cares

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00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,599
about your channel and your expos is.

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Speaker 2: Do you have an argument?

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Speaker 9: Well, that's not an argument.

416
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Speaker 2: Do you have an argument?

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00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 13: Let's talk about CIA handlers Jay?

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Speaker 9: My argument is that you have CIA handlers.

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Speaker 2: And where is the proof? Where's the proof of that?

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Speaker 11: Talk about people giving like a little bit of information

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and not really giving anything relevant to right now, that's

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exactly what your.

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Speaker 2: Channel does, Jake, Because so how is that a proof that?

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How is that a proof that's Jedy?

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Speaker 9: Well, well here's a proof. You do not have to

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be orthodox to get saved. That's for sure. You just

427
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got to accept Jesus Christ is your Lord and savior.

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Speaker 2: This guy is a set or a troll.

429
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: This guy's not even let's just this guy's a troll.

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Speaker 2: Just delete this guy. So total was about John.

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Speaker 9: Three sixteen Christian Jay.

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Speaker 1: Let's get he's laughing because he knows that what he's

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00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:03,559
saying is disingenuous. Is he can't even make an argument

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the total waste of time.

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Speaker 2: So there you go. That's the quality.

436
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: The quality of our opponents is so low tier that all.

437
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: He can do is like, I don't even know what

438
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,480
that was? Fed speak?

439
00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 4: What was Did anybody hear what church he was in?

440
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Speaker 1: He's probably not even in a church, dude, that's probably

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not even total.

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Speaker 14: No, he said in my DMS he said he's invisible church.

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Speaker 2: So just a total clown.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, let's move on. Anybody have any good actual arguments

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or positions that they want to.

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Speaker 2: Put for.

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Speaker 1: We got a couple of super chats. Bantu says, I

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just have a question.

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Speaker 9: You know how you said there was a debate over.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh?

451
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Speaker 15: Could you say what the position was settled on?

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Speaker 9: What that means?

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Speaker 1: I brought it up with Seraphim. It's like the end

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of the second chapter in Mind or.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a confusing thing. I'll get the book

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here in a second, but do you guys want to

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take over? I'm going to run to the little boys room.

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Speaker 9: Maybe we should just explain to people what that is.

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Speaker 7: There's a part of the liturgy where the priests or

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the deacon the holds up the chalice and plate holy plate.

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Speaker 9: It says, thine own of.

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Speaker 4: We offer to the Are you guys familiar with that part?

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Speaker 9: Unbelpable and formal?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, what's the I'm not familiar about? Like what the

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I have the mind or book, but what the debate

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is over?

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Speaker 9: Lewis you know?

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Speaker 15: No, But I've always found it kind of like you

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could interpret that in so many different ways, Like it

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could just be about the elements, but it could also

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be about Christ. Like so the son being the father's

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own being offered to the father.

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Speaker 9: That's probably what.

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Speaker 4: They settled on.

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Speaker 9: But it's yeah, it's kind of like, it's kind of ambiguous.

477
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So I wanted to know what the.

478
00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:40,079
Speaker 7: Few elements as far as the bread.

479
00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: And wine or like, I got it right here.

480
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,319
Speaker 15: So yeah, as in like it's God's creation that we're

481
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,720
offering back to him kind of thing.

482
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 9: Like that's that's the other thought I had.

483
00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:55,599
Speaker 1: Means, it's the offering of the other son. So let

484
00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:58,920
me here, here's the debate, and you'll see how it

485
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:05,839
applies to refuting the Protestant purely juridical notion. So it's

486
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:12,039
pages thirty nine and forty of the mind or book.

487
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,160
So let me read this. It gets a little confusing,

488
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,559
so let's see if we can parse this out.

489
00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 2: He says.

490
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: The very Kurellian conclusion of the Council against Eustrasias led

491
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,359
to further christological debates, which this time concerned the meaning

492
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:35,680
of the eucharistic sacrifice. The deacon so Tykos Pantugenos, the

493
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,599
patriarch elect of Antioch, affirmed that the sacrifice could not

494
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,920
be offered to the Holy Trinity, for this would imply

495
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:48,359
that the one Christ performs two opposing actions, the human

496
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,119
action of offering the divine action of receiving. And this

497
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,440
would mean an historian separation and personalization of two natures.

498
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so we got that point that far right interesting.

499
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: And then it goes on to say Nicholas, the Bishop

500
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:12,720
of Methone in Peloponnese, was a major Byzantine theologian of

501
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:15,480
the twelfth century, and he responded to Staticos with an

502
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:20,039
elaboration on the notion of hypostasis, based on Leontius of

503
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:25,160
Byzantium and Maximus the Confessor. The hypostatic union is precisely

504
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,559
what permits one to consider God as performing humanly the

505
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,119
act of offering, while maintaining that God by nature and

506
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,599
therefore receiving the sacrifice. To so Tyrkos. Nicholas opposed the

507
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,759
conclusion of the prayer of the Cherubicon, whose author, as

508
00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:46,119
modern research shows, is another other than Cyril of Alexander himself.

509
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,920
But what is part of both Byzantine liturgies and attributed

510
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,640
to Basil on Christistom is the words, For it is

511
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,319
thou who offerest and who art offered, who receivest and

512
00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:02,960
art thyself received. Nicholas, whose views were endorsed by the

513
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,720
Council of eleven fifty six to fifty seven, shows that

514
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:09,720
neither the Eucharist nor the work of Christ in general

515
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:13,400
can be reduced to a purely juridical notion of sacrificed

516
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,960
conceived as an exchange. God does not have to receive

517
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:20,880
anything from us. We do not go to him to

518
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,079
make an offering. Rather, he condescends towards us, assumes our

519
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,279
nature not as a condition of reconciliation, but in order

520
00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:31,480
to meet us openly in the flesh.

521
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,039
Speaker 2: Thus you can see how.

522
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:38,119
Speaker 1: This refutes the Protestant doctrine of the juridical, purely juridical.

523
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,799
Speaker 2: Transaction. Does that make sense?

524
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 9: It's quite complicated.

525
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,599
Speaker 1: I must say you're right, And then it goes on

526
00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:54,640
to say the very technical christological discussions of the twelfth

527
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,599
century reconsider all the major issues which have been debated

528
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,880
in the fifth and seven The Byzantine Church remained fundamentally

529
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:08,720
faithful to what Father Fluorosky calls asymmetrical Christology, the union

530
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,039
of God and man in Christ, the hypos, the hyposthetic

531
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:15,359
source of all life is divine, the mankind is not

532
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,759
diminished diminished, but in fact becomes fully human. The notion

533
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:27,559
of asymmetrical Christology is thus expressed in the Eucharistic sacrifice,

534
00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:30,319
which is a unique act in which no single action

535
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,200
of Christ is represented in isolation or reduced to any

536
00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:40,559
purely human concepts, such as a purely juridical He's saying

537
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:46,480
exchange or satisfaction. Christ, as the Sonoticon says every Sunday, Orthodoxy,

538
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,680
reconciles us to himself by means of the whole mystery

539
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,119
of the economy, by himself in himself, and thus reconciles

540
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,960
us to his God and Father, and of course to

541
00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:01,319
the most holy, life giving Spirit. So, in other words,

542
00:30:01,519 --> 00:30:05,559
there's no sense at all in which there's a human

543
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,680
subject that is offering something to the Son.

544
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: Or to the Trinity. That's the key here.

545
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: In other words, this dispute is a further reaffirmation of

546
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,799
asymmetrical Christology, that Christ is a divine hypostasis, and there's

547
00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:25,160
no human subject that is part of this transaction and change.

548
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: In offering.

549
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,359
Speaker 1: The humanity is the humanity of the divine person of

550
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,119
the Word that he offers to the Father you see,

551
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,240
Does that make sense?

552
00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:44,119
Speaker 15: Stood sided with the first Antiochian deacon. It's not referring

553
00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:45,839
to offering to the whole trinity.

554
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:46,119
Speaker 4: Is that right?

555
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,839
Speaker 1: Let me rephrase, let me restate that part. It's a deacon,

556
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,960
Deacon Sotykos, who affirmed the sacrifice could not be offered

557
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,799
to the Trinity, for this would imply that the one

558
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,200
Christ performs too opposing actions, a human action of offering

559
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:04,920
and a divine action of.

560
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:08,119
Speaker 2: Receiving, and this would be an Nestorian. Uh.

561
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: But the response is that the hyposthetic union is precisely

562
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,440
what permits one to consider God as performing humanly the

563
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:19,240
action of offering. So it's that he entered into the

564
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:22,440
mode of humanity. It's not a human person offering, it's

565
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,440
the divine Son offering the humanity.

566
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:25,839
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

567
00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: So, in other words, he is the offerer and the receiver. Yeah,

568
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,160
that's that's why it cites the Sonoticon of saying that

569
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,799
he proclaims that Christ reconciles us to himself by means

570
00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:46,720
of the whole mystery of the economia, by himself in himself,

571
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:49,519
to his God and our Father and to the Spirit.

572
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:57,799
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, because this is a hypostatonin him in the

573
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,240
unique mode exactly.

574
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,279
Speaker 1: This is where mode becomes crucial. But if you look

575
00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:06,559
at it, this is the point I was making to

576
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:09,279
to sorry from Hamilton in our discussion, which is that

577
00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:11,480
even the liturgy, if you were to follow it out,

578
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:13,440
the theology of the liturgy, you would see that it

579
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,240
refutes the Protestant reductionist notion of making it a juridical

580
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:23,799
theoretical bank account transaction. It's impossible with correct Trinitarian theology

581
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:26,039
to have that view. That's the point here.

582
00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:38,359
Speaker 8: Perfect, Thanks, yes, sir, go ahead, who's next?

583
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: It's me?

584
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:47,519
Speaker 16: Okay, yeah, I almost seem by there. Well, I interacted

585
00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:51,079
mainly with Orienteds on this coord so then like I

586
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,400
might get a different answer from you. But would you

587
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,680
say that being on cause is a property of the

588
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:58,519
essence or if other.

589
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,519
Speaker 2: Ady, it's a hyposthetic property. The Father is uncaused.

590
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 17: I think this is a better position than what I've

591
00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:11,200
heard from Orientals.

592
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:13,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Oriental theology is jacked up.

593
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:22,039
Speaker 17: So yeah, because of imply contradiction, design cannot be both

594
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,680
uncaused and caused.

595
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: You have forgotten, correct, he is not auto theos right,

596
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:34,119
he is of the Father and the original nice scene

597
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,440
creed and nice scene teaching is that he is divine

598
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,480
because he has begotten.

599
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 14: Yeah.

600
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 16: Also another question, do you affirm that God has one act?

601
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: No, the only time that that's us it's used by

602
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,279
Saint Maximus and it's used by John Damascus. And Maximus

603
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:57,440
is very clear in the two in the Tuner chapters

604
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:00,400
that the only time that we say God is quote

605
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,519
pure act is in contrast to creatures in himself in

606
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:09,199
his essence in the Innertrinitarian life, God is not pure act.

607
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:10,519
Speaker 2: He's clear as day.

608
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: The first five pages of the two innerd chapters says this,

609
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,559
and John Damascus is not saying anything different. And again,

610
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,599
I did a whole talk in Montana on the absurdities

611
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,800
of saying that God is pure act in himself.

612
00:34:26,559 --> 00:34:30,079
Speaker 9: Okay, can you which video in particular? Because I want

613
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:30,679
to watch.

614
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: It the lecture in Montana.

615
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:39,039
Speaker 9: Okay, I'm going to So it's anyway, it's available for

616
00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:41,199
purchase through Jays.

617
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: So you can watch the first half. It's Oh, that's right,

618
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:45,800
that's right.

619
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 14: Uh.

620
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:53,599
Speaker 1: It's called Roman Catholicism, Islam and Greek philosophical presuppositions Montana

621
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:56,119
lecture Jay Dyer So it's like, I don't know, five

622
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,159
or six videos back.

623
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,119
Speaker 9: Thank you for gest pumps.

624
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: Sure my pleasure. Thank you. Hello discords.

625
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:11,159
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, is there anybody in there?

626
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: Just not have you?

627
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:15,679
Speaker 9: Hey?

628
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 8: Ja uh huh.

629
00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:21,159
Speaker 13: My name is Odin Benitez, and I just this isn't

630
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:22,880
a challenge or anything. I just want to thank you

631
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,760
for really kind of bringing me to Orthodoxy.

632
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 9: I'm in the in the process of doing it. I was.

633
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,599
Speaker 13: I'm a supervising sound editor in Hollywood, and I've been

634
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,760
working in the industry for thirty years.

635
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,599
Speaker 9: I may have some insights.

636
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,519
Speaker 13: And uh, you know into Hollywood and.

637
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 9: And you know their ideology.

638
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: Oh cool.

639
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, It's like, I mean, the whole you know, everybody

640
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,400
kind of grows up with this.

641
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,199
Speaker 9: It's it's a huge echo chamber. But I'm sort of

642
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,239
like you. I I was.

643
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 13: Baptized Catholic, I went to a Baptist high school, I

644
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,800
went to college, became a liberal Christian, got introduced to Gnosticism,

645
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:13,280
was really fascinated by that, by the Gospel of Thomas,

646
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,039
and read a bunch of books until I realized it

647
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:21,599
was Satanism basically, and I kind of went back then

648
00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,440
to Roman Catholicism just because I did a lot of

649
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,400
investigation on the historical Jesus, and I thought that that

650
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:31,400
that the.

651
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,199
Speaker 9: Catholic scholars were the best of at that point.

652
00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 13: But I wasn't really introduced to any of the Eastern fathers.

653
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,960
And it's really odd because I did a lot of

654
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,159
studying of Byzantium, because I wrote a script about the

655
00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:47,440
fall of Constantinople. Cool and yeah, and I you know,

656
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,079
I read like four different contemporary accounts, and I read

657
00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:53,000
all the John.

658
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 9: Julius Norwich books.

659
00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:59,199
Speaker 13: The interesting thing is, though, that I never was really

660
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:01,119
exposed to any of the theology.

661
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:06,199
Speaker 9: You know, even I think even even Norwich.

662
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 13: Just said something along the lines about I don't he

663
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,960
didn't really understand what the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is,

664
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,920
something about the energies of Christ and uh, you know,

665
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:20,880
and so I I so for me, this is really

666
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,360
illuminating because I'm somewhat of an amateur scholar about Byzantem.

667
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:28,119
I even wrote two chapters in military history book about

668
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:32,480
some battles that.

669
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:33,159
Speaker 9: That occurred with the Byzantine.

670
00:37:32,599 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 18: At Party, which yeah, so I it's so for me,

671
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:39,760
this is sort of like it's almost like providence.

672
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 13: You know I've been I've studied so much of the

673
00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:46,199
Byzantine history, never really understanding the theology. And it's so

674
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,800
I'm making my way through Byzantine theology in that book

675
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:55,000
and also some Father Seraphone books read Nihilism, which is

676
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:57,519
just it was like it's a short book, but it

677
00:37:57,559 --> 00:37:59,920
took me forever to get through because each sentence is

678
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:00,800
a thought provoking.

679
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,119
Speaker 9: But I just wanted to thank you, and and you.

680
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 13: Know, I've found a church out here and I'm in

681
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,079
the process of you know, once I get through this

682
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,400
business and theology, you want to contact the priest.

683
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 9: And I've been to Vespers already.

684
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:17,079
Speaker 2: Awesome. Yeah, that's great to hear. I know that.

685
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: We are in the process right now of converting Hugh

686
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,119
Jackman Mel Gibson.

687
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 2: I'm joking. I'm just joking.

688
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:29,679
Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean what my my my cousin actually drove

689
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,920
with He was Mel Gibson's driver, and you know, before

690
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,440
the whole thing, his idea about the resurrection that he

691
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:39,840
and Mel were partying and Mel.

692
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 13: Got kind of close to him and said, you know,

693
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,239
I've got this idea about making a movie about the resurrection.

694
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:44,440
I think that's the next film.

695
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: Cool I'm looking forward to that.

696
00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be.

697
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 13: He's a what as a pre Vatican or as a

698
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,280
Vatican one Catholic.

699
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: I think, uh, well, he's a side of a contest.

700
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,599
Speaker 9: Yeah right right.

701
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:02,679
Speaker 1: So yeah, and they're they're they're the the we are

702
00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:04,960
the original set of a contest is Orthodox. So maybe

703
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,559
eventually we can convert mel Gibson. So pray for the

704
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:10,599
converted mel Gibson. But yeah, I think that the Resurrection

705
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,079
movie does sound like a good idea.

706
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:15,159
Speaker 9: I was bummed to here so him and.

707
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,599
Speaker 7: Mark Wahlberg doing a movie about a Roman Catholic priest

708
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,320
in my town, and I was like, this is my chance,

709
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,280
because you know, my castick just gets me into anything.

710
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,679
Speaker 9: I just introduced myself.

711
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,559
Speaker 7: Then I found out they're filming.

712
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,199
Speaker 9: They're not filming them on Tana. They're not going to

713
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:40,679
be up, so I know I could have got them.

714
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 13: Well, you know, I still have another contact and in

715
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:46,760
just to my cousin, there's another coworker who actually works

716
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,280
for his assistant, so you know there is a chance

717
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,400
to tell them I'm looking for him.

718
00:39:53,039 --> 00:39:53,679
Speaker 9: I will.

719
00:39:58,599 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: Anybody else.

720
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: We got full room here, open chat.

721
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jay, how's it going, bro? I'm gonna. Oh, it's.

722
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,119
Speaker 1: You had that tone of like you have that tone

723
00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:18,519
of you that you have that tone of like I

724
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:20,519
love you, but I hate you.

725
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: Right like I'm about to destroy you.

726
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 11: Dah right, I'm gonna I'm gonna roast you.

727
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,599
Speaker 1: I love you and I love your content, but like,

728
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,199
let me explain why you're the worst human being on

729
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:32,159
the planet right now.

730
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:37,119
Speaker 11: It's like, you know, you could win debates, Jay if

731
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:38,840
you could figure out your boomer tech and.

732
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 9: Unmute your mic.

733
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 11: Anyways, Uh, this actually this question.

734
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 4: Is from uh Jao.

735
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 11: He says, how would you refute postmodernist thinkers like Umberto

736
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,800
Echo and dared A and their theories of semiotics theories

737
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,039
of semiotics against metaphysics.

738
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: I did a whole video on Echo, and Echo has

739
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:14,119
a whole essay where he basically argues that the.

740
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:16,679
Speaker 2: Goal of.

741
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,119
Speaker 1: The true leftist, and he's speaking in a general sense

742
00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:24,880
of like classical what he sees as the history of

743
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,159
all leftism. He says it's not a battle of liberals against.

744
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,039
Speaker 2: A fascist regime.

745
00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: He says that the real battle and goal of the

746
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:41,760
leftist is against truth, which is fascism in essence. So

747
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,440
any notion that there's truth, Echo says, is fascism, and

748
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,559
he says that's the real battle of the liberal is

749
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:51,000
against truth itself. Can't make this up. That's it's a

750
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,159
famous essay. It's like the Earth Fascist or something like

751
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:59,360
that by Echo. I highly recommend reading that essay because

752
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,599
it really gives you an insight into the mindset of

753
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:08,000
a person who was a committed, rabid Thomist who at

754
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,400
some point in college or when it was grad school,

755
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,599
he realized that Thomism doesn't work. Thomism is a broken,

756
00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:18,880
dead end system, and instead of going towards Orthodoxy or

757
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,079
something like that, Echo said, now I'm going to be

758
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,159
like the uber liberal. I'm going to go the demon

759
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,360
Satanic route, like literal Satanism. I mean, I think Echo

760
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,239
was probably a totally into Luciferian say. I mean, I've

761
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,519
read most of his books, so I'm not saying this

762
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:38,559
out of speculation. I mean, he fills his books with

763
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:43,800
Gnostic Satanic, Luciferian esoteric themes, especially if you read fucos Pendulum.

764
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,880
He's basically defending the idea of, you know, a Satanic

765
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,440
elite more or less, and ultimately, of course he's critiquing

766
00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:53,960
all of these things. He says too, like, oh, you know,

767
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,039
the idea of any kind of elite is absurd, So

768
00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:00,400
he kind of adopts this nihilistic, absurdist view that whether

769
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,159
you're a Christian who believes in truth or whether you're

770
00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:07,599
the sort of luciferian gnostic, cobblist elitist, it's all absurdity,

771
00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:09,599
it's all nihilism, it's all just nothing.

772
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: So you could read his books in that.

773
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:16,079
Speaker 1: Way as if it's like cosmic nihilism. Maybe he's like

774
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:18,679
that final stage of Father surfrom.

775
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: Rose's book on nihilism.

776
00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: But regardless, Echo is a great example of the mature spiritually,

777
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:33,000
like I'm saying, darkly matured, like self conscious evil.

778
00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:35,679
Speaker 2: That is like our battle is against.

779
00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: Truth itself, any notion that there's such a thing as

780
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,800
truth is the real battle of the liberal. So you

781
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,719
get that rare honesty in Umberto Eco's famous essay. So

782
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:52,360
when we understand that that's the real motivation of a

783
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:58,719
dairy da, of a fucuot, of a echo of the deconstructionists,

784
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,960
now we understand that that's that's really what's going on here,

785
00:44:02,639 --> 00:44:06,400
and quite obviously it's self refuting. I mean, why are

786
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,000
we we're writing books using words and meaning to say

787
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:12,559
books and words have no meaning.

788
00:44:12,679 --> 00:44:14,119
Speaker 2: It's just fundamentally stupid.

789
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: And they're okay with that, right, So postmodernists are okay

790
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,760
with accepting nonsense, contradictions. There's no grand narratives, okay, but

791
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,559
that's a grand narrative, okay.

792
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:24,599
Speaker 2: And if we're if we're.

793
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: Accepting contradictions and nonsense and chaos and meaninglessness, then you

794
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,920
can't make arguments that nonsense and chaos and meaninglessness is true.

795
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,920
So you've done your job as an apologist. And at

796
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,280
a certain point there's nothing that you can do with

797
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,440
people like that, Like you can't if people are self consciously,

798
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:48,880
wilfully wanting that level of evil, all you can do.

799
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,199
Speaker 2: Is pray for their repentance.

800
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like that's self conscious evil, right. So

801
00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:00,960
I hope that answers the qui about echo.

802
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,039
Speaker 2: Anybody else?

803
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,519
Speaker 19: Hey, Jay, you have a question when Philosky talks about

804
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:19,960
separated brethren who who? And I wonder what you think

805
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,039
about that and what what does that mean with relation

806
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:26,760
to you know, heterodoxs or people outside the church.

807
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: Right, So sometimes that word is used, I don't think

808
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,880
it's necessarily always wrong. I mean, because you can have

809
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,880
people who don't know all the issues, right, I mean,

810
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,920
who aren't hardened in their heresy. They're not formal heretics, right.

811
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,199
So I do agree that there is a patristic idea

812
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,239
of somebody who is not a formal heretic, but is

813
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,800
a material heretic, a heretic in potentia, you could say.

814
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,239
And that's because heresy is usually defined as not a

815
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,760
sin of just merely being.

816
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:58,199
Speaker 2: Wrong, but a sin of obstinacy.

817
00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: So a heretic is not somebody just just wrong because

818
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,480
we're all wrong, right, So are we all heretics, because

819
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,079
I'm sure everybody's got some point in their theology wrong.

820
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: Right.

821
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: So, but the sin of heresy and the sin of

822
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,239
schism are sins of obstinacy.

823
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,679
Speaker 2: Will and knowledge.

824
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:19,199
Speaker 1: So you're knowingly obstinately persisting in the error in the heresy.

825
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,920
There's not a you know, always a clear cut like

826
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,480
black and white in terms of every individual when a

827
00:46:25,519 --> 00:46:29,440
person's obstinately a heretic. So what we do from our

828
00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:31,719
vantage point is we don't try to go, you know,

829
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,119
person by person.

830
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: Making specific judgments.

831
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: We just do a judgment call on the group as

832
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,000
a whole, and there's nothing wrong with that, because we're

833
00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:44,360
not condemning everybody as if we know their inner state

834
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:47,480
or their heart. But what we do know is that

835
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:50,320
at least before the end of a person's life, they

836
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,679
have to be Orthodox. They have to believe and be

837
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,360
united to the Orthodox faith. So if God somehow makes

838
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,199
up for that, if God gives them a special means

839
00:46:59,199 --> 00:46:59,719
of the point of.

840
00:46:59,679 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 2: Death or something like that, we don't know.

841
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: But our job, our duty is just like infants who

842
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,800
die without baptism or outside the church, do.

843
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: We know that they go to hell?

844
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:12,599
Speaker 1: Know, we simply commend them to God, and we don't

845
00:47:12,639 --> 00:47:15,599
know their total in fate. But our job is to

846
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:19,360
tell them and call them to Orthodoxy. So at the

847
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,679
time when the phrase separated brethren was used at Florence,

848
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,400
that's used by Saint Mark of Emphasis at the beginning

849
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,960
of the council. There's a great an article over at

850
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:31,920
Orthodox Ethos that points out that by the end of

851
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,840
the council, Saint Mark of Ephesis realize that they're not

852
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,280
separated brethren, they're Heterodox, And you get the exact same

853
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,159
expression in Saint Gregor Paloma's He says that the Latins

854
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:46,480
are heterodox, they listen to Satan. They're wrong, they're heresy,

855
00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:49,000
they're in heresy. But that doesn't mean that we have

856
00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:51,199
to go by every single person one by one and

857
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,320
say you're an amn heretic, you're an Amneritic, you're an

858
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,199
aamn heretic. We don't have to do that because it's

859
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,719
not our job to judge every individual person. It's rather

860
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,239
a collective public judgment that we make about what they

861
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,239
profess to believe, which is in error in his heresy,

862
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,920
and if and and God.

863
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: Will deal with them on an individual level. We don't

864
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:11,400
have to do that.

865
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,679
Speaker 1: That's why Paul says, what have we to do with

866
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,960
judging those who are without? We judge those within. So

867
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:23,239
it's much more pertinent to us to assess in the Orthodox.

868
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: Church who is and isn't Orthodox. We don't have We're not.

869
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:29,679
Speaker 1: It's not we don't have to worry about what does

870
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:32,800
brother Billyba believe, what does Michael often believe?

871
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: What does? So there, they're heterodox and God will deal

872
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,400
with them. We don't have to.

873
00:48:41,199 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: But it's it's but it's important to point out that

874
00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:50,000
ecumeniusts misuse the phrase separated brethren, because after the Council,

875
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,840
Saint Mark of Ephesus says, they are not anymore separated brethren.

876
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,480
They are obstinate Latins and they're stupid and their in heresy.

877
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,639
Speaker 19: Okay, So like whoever, So God deals with each person

878
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:06,360
according to.

879
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:07,159
Speaker 9: What they've been given.

880
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 19: And so if they haven't had the full revelation and

881
00:49:09,519 --> 00:49:13,199
the full truth, like God will, you know, lead them

882
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,360
into truth in all possible means.

883
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 9: And we don't have to worry about that.

884
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 2: That's what I would say.

885
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,559
Speaker 1: But we do have the duty, right, But it's just

886
00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:23,199
like like evangelism, right, like we have the duty to

887
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,239
tell people that you have to, you know, come into

888
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,760
the church, repent and believe, baptize all the nations.

889
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: Right, and Jesus says the Great Commission.

890
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: Now we're not told like what happens to people that

891
00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:37,920
die that never hear the Gospel. We don't know, I mean,

892
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,360
we're not told that what we know is what we're

893
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:40,840
told to do.

894
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,119
Speaker 2: That's all we know. I don't know.

895
00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 1: And one thing that is I think orthodoxy helps you

896
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:51,920
accept as you get older, is that there's a reason.

897
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:53,199
Speaker 2: Why God doesn't tell us everything.

898
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: So I'm perfectly fine with like, I don't know what

899
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,440
happens to the guy who dies in you know, the

900
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,960
Pagan island who never heard the gospel. Well, I mean

901
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,400
unless God has a special means by which he joins

902
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,800
that person to the church at the point of death

903
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,400
or something like that. I mean, then we don't know.

904
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,599
We're not told. But what we are told is that

905
00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:18,559
we have to preach and tell them to come into

906
00:50:18,599 --> 00:50:22,440
the kingdom.

907
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:23,599
Speaker 19: Okay, great, thank you?

908
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:31,119
Speaker 2: Sure anybody there? Hello? Are you in there?

909
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: It's not if you can hear me.

910
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: It's like the wall up in the discord bro.

911
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: I have a question, yes, sir.

912
00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 20: So it's a question about like veganism, Like so I

913
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,480
just want to make it I'm not a vegan like

914
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,920
eat mate and stuff, but to have a question about it,

915
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,880
just like you know about arguments against vegans. Okay, so

916
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,440
I know, like there's a lot of examples in throughout

917
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,719
the Bible that eating meat is fine and.

918
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:16,199
Speaker 14: Stuff, the lamb slain and stuff, like there's plenty of examples,

919
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:19,480
but like, was it I don't know if you know

920
00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:22,880
the answer to this, but what is it the case

921
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,760
that a pre full state like the dentic state eating

922
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:34,000
animals or meat was seen. Is it just like the

923
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:36,119
post for uh.

924
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,559
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people misunderstand this. Actually you're

925
00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:44,000
correct in eating nobody ate meat that we know of exactly.

926
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:48,639
There's some debate over what the you know, making skins means,

927
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:53,199
but regardless, humans don't eat meat until Noah. So it's

928
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,440
at Noah that God says you may now eat meat.

929
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,880
So presumably we don't know what the wicked were up to.

930
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:02,440
They might have been engaging in cannibalism for all we know,

931
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:03,880
that might have been part of the reason why there

932
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:04,400
was a flood.

933
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: That's a lot of speculation.

934
00:52:05,559 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: But for God's people, they're not told until Noah Genesis

935
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,199
eight nine, right, that now you may eat meat. So

936
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:18,039
that's an allowance after the flood. And then if you

937
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:23,039
read Acts fifteen, when the gentiles are brought into the church,

938
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,840
what happens is that the apostles have their council and

939
00:52:27,039 --> 00:52:29,599
Acts fifteen they say, okay, we're not going to require

940
00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:33,079
of gentile converts anything more than was required in the

941
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:37,239
Covenant of Noah, because if Noah, who was obviously by

942
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,599
knows a gentile, if he could be made righteous at

943
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:42,119
that time, then we are not going to require anything

944
00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:45,840
more than was required of Noah for entering the covenant,

945
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,719
so to speak. So all Acts fifteen is is a

946
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:53,480
restatement of the noea covenant which says, don't eat strangled meat,

947
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:56,599
cook your food right, just basic principles like that. So yes,

948
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:02,159
meat eating is allowable, not just because of Noah but

949
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,400
also in the New Testament. And then we get Paul

950
00:53:04,519 --> 00:53:07,559
saying to Timothy that false teachers will come along and

951
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:10,320
they'll try to erect a fake morality, in a fake

952
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,400
ethical code, by which they say that it's wrong to

953
00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:17,760
marry and it's wrong to eat flesh. So Gnostics Ebionites right,

954
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,760
And within a few centuries the early church fathers, the

955
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,360
first of which is Saint Hipolitis. He has a treatise

956
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,000
on heresies and he mentions the Brahmins. He says, the

957
00:53:26,039 --> 00:53:29,440
Brahmins taught a doctrine of vegetarianism and not meeting eat,

958
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,440
and so they would ethically enforce that it's morally wrong

959
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:35,559
to eat meat. They are condemned. They're not just condemned there,

960
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:40,760
they're condemned again in totality in some of the early councils,

961
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:45,320
but also in Saint Johnamascus's book on Heresies, where he

962
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:51,719
lists three or four heretical sects, the Ebionites, the Pythagoreans,

963
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,360
in one or two other groups, the Tatianites, Gnostics, Marcianites,

964
00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:00,400
different groups that would enforce vegetarianism. And it's unanimously distantly

965
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,639
condemned by the church fathers across the board. And a

966
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:06,800
lot of people don't know this too. Remember, everybody, Veganism

967
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:08,480
is an ethical position.

968
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 2: It is not a diet based position.

969
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: So when the vegans are telling you that you have

970
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:14,199
to be vegan, it's not about your diet.

971
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 2: In fact, they know that.

972
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,599
Speaker 1: It is not advantageous most of the time for humans

973
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,119
to eat that goober's stupid diet, and they tell you

974
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:26,079
that it doesn't matter. Yes, it may be bad for

975
00:54:26,119 --> 00:54:29,519
your health, but you have a duty ethically to accept

976
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:34,519
bad for your health things because veganism is an ethical position,

977
00:54:34,679 --> 00:54:45,360
not a dietary position. Yes, sir, hey jes.

978
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 9: Okay, I'm want to ask.

979
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 2: So again, Tristan.

980
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: The attitude is that the food should be cooked. I'm

981
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,880
not saying that it's always wrong to eat sushi. It's

982
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,480
a it's I think the attitude of why the food

983
00:55:04,559 --> 00:55:07,960
is to be cooked is because of the ancient world's

984
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,960
attitude towards what might make you sick. So yes, I'm

985
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,599
sure that plenty of people eat rare food or eat sushi.

986
00:55:15,039 --> 00:55:19,239
I don't think that Acts fifteen is implying that it's

987
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:20,599
always wrong to eat sushi.

988
00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 10: But blood if you look at the prescription, for example,

989
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,719
of the Council of Gangra which you mentioned against these people,

990
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,599
it's more about blood. And there's this thing, you know,

991
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,719
blood putting blood saucers on many parts of orthox food

992
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:35,639
would not be permitted.

993
00:55:35,679 --> 00:55:36,559
Speaker 9: And it's this link.

994
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 10: If you know, Saint James is a very is a

995
00:55:41,519 --> 00:55:44,440
president of the Consult FACTI feel, and is a very

996
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,400
sussdotal figure. So it might also be referring to the

997
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:54,039
ideas that since you know, we are becoming divine in

998
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:58,239
a sense by consuming divine blood, as a recognition of

999
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:02,039
for consumption of divine blood, we would give exclusivity of

1000
00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:03,239
a blood conception to.

1001
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 9: Christ to give blood.

1002
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:09,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting was.

1003
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 10: Mentioned specifically, like like when they talk about like cooked

1004
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,840
foo is always about blood, right.

1005
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: So Tristan, I'm not trying to counter signal you, but

1006
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,079
I would disagree that I think that the implication is

1007
00:56:21,079 --> 00:56:24,880
that it is supposed to be cooked, because there is

1008
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:30,960
in levitical law the prohibiting of eating raw flesh. So yes,

1009
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:34,239
it's true that Acts fifteen doesn't specifically say you must

1010
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,480
cook the meat, but it's already presupposed in the way

1011
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:41,039
they're approaching the question. So and again, it's not a

1012
00:56:41,119 --> 00:56:44,920
legalistic thing that you can never have something like sushi.

1013
00:56:45,039 --> 00:56:45,519
Speaker 2: I don't think.

1014
00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:47,639
Speaker 1: I don't think it's that big of a deal, but

1015
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,960
like Snack said, it has oftentimes been understood in that way,

1016
00:56:52,119 --> 00:56:53,480
so quick call.

1017
00:56:56,599 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 6: I was just wondering, what is some of the base terminology,

1018
00:57:01,199 --> 00:57:03,480
like in general for that you need to know for

1019
00:57:03,599 --> 00:57:05,639
Christology and Trinitarian theology.

1020
00:57:08,519 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Uh, well, there's a good book by Vladimir Lowsky called

1021
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:18,079
Dogmatic Theology, and he has basically a pretty u useful

1022
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:20,960
glossary at the back of the book where he defines

1023
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:25,639
kind of the basic ideas of hypostasis and nature and

1024
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:26,880
energies and.

1025
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:28,239
Speaker 2: This kind of stuff.

1026
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:31,159
Speaker 1: So that would be a good kind of rough book,

1027
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,559
but the basics would be I think David has some

1028
00:57:34,639 --> 00:57:37,719
videos to David real Medwhite on the basic terms that

1029
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,639
you want to know. But uh, you know person, nature, energy, will,

1030
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,440
tropos mode right in hyposthetize. Those are all key words

1031
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:47,079
that we want to know.

1032
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,599
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks, sure.

1033
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 7: Jay.

1034
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 12: I had a quick one with something that came up

1035
00:57:55,519 --> 00:58:00,199
on Twitter. It's about saying Basil. I just want you

1036
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:03,880
to comment real quick, because now the Reformed, in their

1037
00:58:04,119 --> 00:58:07,199
terrible arguments against this, are now trying to claim several

1038
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,599
same Basil's letters we have, like letter three sixty or forgeries.

1039
00:58:13,119 --> 00:58:14,199
Speaker 1: I don't know at the top of my head what

1040
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,400
the three sixty is. Now some of Basil's letters have

1041
00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:21,840
been fought to be Gregora Nissa, Like letter thirty eight

1042
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:24,719
is on nature in person is now believed to be

1043
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,559
Gregora Nissa. But I don't like what is What exactly

1044
00:58:27,639 --> 00:58:31,719
does that? I mean, who cares what a reform person thinks?

1045
00:58:32,039 --> 00:58:34,679
And what is letter number three hundred sixty. I don't

1046
00:58:34,679 --> 00:58:35,800
know if the top my head what it is.

1047
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 2: Are you there excuse me?

1048
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 12: Oh, it's it's the letter from Saint Basils talking about iconography,

1049
00:58:48,239 --> 00:58:50,639
because you know they're iconoclass, so they're trying to argue

1050
00:58:50,639 --> 00:58:55,480
that any patristic evidence for venerating icons has to be forger.

1051
00:58:55,199 --> 00:58:57,519
Speaker 1: Okay, well, everybody doubts the I mean, there's plenty of

1052
00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:00,400
people who doubt the authenticity of the epithet any US

1053
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,559
essay against the iconography, So it doesn't really matter if they.

1054
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,559
I mean, our argument for and belief and iconography doesn't

1055
00:59:10,639 --> 00:59:13,039
hinge on a letter from Basil. I mean it hinges

1056
00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:17,679
on the principle behind the incarnation, the real presence in

1057
00:59:17,719 --> 00:59:21,760
the Eucharist, Sacramentalism. I mean, that's the basis for why

1058
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,480
we believe that icons, you know, do what they do.

1059
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:28,480
It's not it's not all hinging on you know, a

1060
00:59:28,559 --> 00:59:29,480
letter from Basil.

1061
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 9: And just chime in.

1062
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,039
Speaker 10: So, yeah, if you're looking for a critical perspective, there's

1063
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:37,559
always going to be some level of criticism. Now, this

1064
00:59:37,679 --> 00:59:42,119
letter is really on its face in terms of iconography

1065
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:46,400
because it literally says that he venerates icons. If you

1066
00:59:46,559 --> 00:59:50,159
want to prove econography from Saint Basil, I would maybe

1067
00:59:50,199 --> 00:59:53,119
be a bit careful. I would not use stuff that

1068
00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:55,920
you know they might refuse, as they might debate, because

1069
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,519
you know, there's always some level if you're in a

1070
00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:02,079
critical mindset, this is a always a way in which

1071
01:00:02,159 --> 01:00:04,480
would you wouldn't use it. So if you want to

1072
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,280
pry iconography from Saint Basil, you can you can use

1073
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:12,480
many of his letters when he refers to glory given

1074
01:00:12,519 --> 01:00:14,719
to the type in transfer to the prototype, and you've

1075
01:00:14,719 --> 01:00:18,960
got all of these ideas. So it's the trinity, but

1076
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:20,960
you can show that there's a principle here. And I

1077
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:25,679
think there's also there's also something from him talking about

1078
01:00:25,719 --> 01:00:28,280
the image of the emperor, you know, in order.

1079
01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 4: To to Theians.

1080
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,639
Speaker 10: And so I think that instead of using this one,

1081
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:36,079
which can be debated, and I understand why it can

1082
01:00:36,119 --> 01:00:39,280
be debated, because it's it seems very obvious, and as

1083
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:40,960
there are some that are you know, there are some

1084
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:46,599
actually I know there's a fake quote by Athenatius on icons.

1085
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:49,480
But instead of using this one, you can you can

1086
01:00:49,519 --> 01:00:53,559
show that actually Saint Basil already understood the principle of

1087
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:56,599
iconography and actually applied it to strinitary and theology and

1088
01:00:56,679 --> 01:00:58,679
all which and all the sudden councils just doing that

1089
01:00:58,719 --> 01:01:01,719
in reverse, which is just return to source.

1090
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 9: But if you want to go from a.

1091
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,039
Speaker 10: Full truant perspective, then you'll be a bit less critical.

1092
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:09,440
But if you're talking to press, and please accept that

1093
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,800
they can have some criticism. You know, we also have

1094
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,480
some criticism of some documents in another context, you know.

1095
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they always pick it.

1096
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: They just do this game where they like quote mine

1097
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,719
to find a church father who disagreed at some point. Okay,

1098
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,239
but so what like what does that prove because nobody

1099
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,000
is hinging the position on every church father having a

1100
01:01:30,199 --> 01:01:33,400
unanimous agreement at every stage. I mean, there wouldn't be

1101
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,199
councils if everybody agreed, right, So it.

1102
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 2: Really doesn't matter.

1103
01:01:37,039 --> 01:01:40,199
Speaker 1: And snackt right that I wouldn't hinge the argument on

1104
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,119
a dubious letter. I would just point out the principles

1105
01:01:44,119 --> 01:01:47,079
that the Seventh Council uses. If you read Saint Theodore's

1106
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:49,800
book on the Holy Icons, he uses the argument like

1107
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,800
like type prototype that Snag just mentioned