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Every week, 28 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:31.000 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:35.000 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.920 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:50.280 Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 32 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.480 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 33 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:56.319 History and the authors that have written about them. My 34 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:01.760 special guest this evening is a veteran journalist and best 35 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:05.799 selling author and crime reporter for the Toronto Star, and 36 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:08.960 we're calling we're talking with speaking with him in Toronto. 37 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:13.000 I want to welcome Nick pron to the program and 38 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:23.919 thank you for doing this interview. Nick Pron. Well, we 39 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.120 seem to have some technical problem here. I'm sure that 40 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:29.879 Nick will get back on air here. I'd heard him 41 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.039 talking in the background. We're going to be talking with 42 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.680 Nick pron who's the author of Lethal Marriage, The Uncensored 43 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.840 Truth Behind the Crimes of Carla Hamalka and Paul Bernardo. 44 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.960 It's a particularly interesting case if you haven't heard about it. 45 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.680 Even if you have heard about it, this is the 46 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.560 one of the few journalists that was privy to all 47 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:55.039 the information that was displayed in court, that was detailed 48 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:58.080 in court, all the graphic details. One of the features 49 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:04.240 of this was that Canadian law of sensing that these 50 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:06.360 people would not have a fair trial and then there 51 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.960 would be certainly some sort of media circus, chose to 52 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.919 have a publication ban or what they call a publication 53 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.759 deferral of information that could certainly be published later, but 54 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.120 not at that particular time. So American journalists were not 55 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:26.439 afforded the privilege of being in the courtroom to witness 56 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.639 what some people have called the trial of the century, 57 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.919 but certainly one of the most shocking, interesting, fascinating and 58 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.840 incredible true crime stories ever told. And we're going to 59 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:42.800 be speaking with Nick Prawn. I was just speaking to 60 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.120 him just before here. So let's see what we have here. 61 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:53.599 Hello Nick? Oh sorry, well, okay, great, okay, yeah, I 62 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.599 just introduced your book and maybe you can tell us 63 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:59.759 how long have you been with the Toronto Star and. 64 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.680 About thirty two years? About thirty two years yeah, and 65 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:09.719 murder trial. Well, I've actually followed the first murder and 66 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.319 you know, followed the case for about three years before 67 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:13.080 it went to trial. 68 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:16.560 What year are we talking? What what year did the trial? 69 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:18.920 Did the trial start itself? 70 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:23.079 Well, he Bernardo himself was convicted in September of nineteen 71 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:28.000 ninety five, and Carla was g two years before that, 72 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.279 I guess in ninety three, nineteen ninety three, when she 73 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:32.800 had her secret trial. And I was just listening to 74 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:36.240 you because it was interesting the the Americans were shut 75 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.800 out because it was felt that they weren't governed by 76 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:41.600 the same loss, so they would break the pub band 77 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.720 and all the information would get out about what she 78 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:48.639 had done, and it was felt it would it would 79 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:50.680 harm the fair trial rights of him, and he might 80 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.160 get off or he wouldn't have a fair trial. And 81 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:55.879 one of the American reporters I remember him standing outside 82 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.519 the door and he was just sort of looking through 83 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.360 the through the door, through the glass doors of the courtroom, 84 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.040 and he couldn't get in. And shortly after that, a 85 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.959 reporter from the Washington Post, she had an office in 86 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.120 the same building, and she came and she started asking 87 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.480 me for all the details and I told her I 88 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.439 couldn't give it to him. I couldn't give her anything 89 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:13.759 because I was under a pub band and one of 90 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:14.959 the cops had called me up. He said, you know, 91 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.240 if anybody leaks the stuff, you're the first time we're 92 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:19.000 going to nail from because we figure you're the one 93 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.360 that's going to do it. And I just, you know, 94 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:22.959 like I couldn't talk to her, and I told her 95 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:24.720 that I felt bad because you know, I'm a reporter, 96 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.800 but I had to honor the band. And she eventually 97 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.040 got the information from somebody, I think, and it eventually 98 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.000 got out before his trial. 99 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:36.600 Right, well, let's go back for our audience here way 100 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:39.680 but way back to okay, for those that the people 101 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:41.879 that don't know this story, but still we still want 102 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:45.199 to lay out basically your incredible book and really what 103 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:47.720 goes on is that we really need to know. We 104 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.800 got to introduce the notorious killer couple, who are the 105 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.199 really the starring subjects in your book, Lethal Marriage. Who 106 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:55.240 is Carla Jlmalka. 107 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.920 She was born to a typical middle class family in 108 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:04.199 Saint Catharines, which is near the you know, near the 109 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:08.120 border with the States. Her father was or was and 110 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.639 still is probably a small businessman, made and sold lamps. 111 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:14.040 Her mother worked in a nurse in the hospital. And 112 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:16.720 you know, when talking to all the neighbors she was, 113 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:19.199 they were a very well liked family. They'd just swimming 114 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:21.519 poll in the backyard. It was a you'd seen it 115 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.160 was You'd think it was a very normal upbringing. All 116 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.360 the neighbors really liked the family. It was the Hamoka place. 117 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:29.560 The Amoka household was a place to go for kids, 118 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:30.800 you know, for something and all that. They were very 119 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.480 open household. If she had any deep dark secrets in 120 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:35.480 the family, you wouldn't think he'd that kind of openness. 121 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.959 And the neighbors really thought there was nothing wrong with 122 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:41.360 her that she was. They really thought she was victimized 123 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.680 by him, totally victimized, that she was an abused wife 124 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.120 and all that. And of course the truth was quite 125 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.680 a bit different. And I mean there were several incidents 126 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:52.519 of neighbors actually attacking reporters at first, you know, when 127 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:54.720 she had her secret trial, because they couldn't believe that 128 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:59.000 she had done all these things. She she she liked witchcraft. 129 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:02.839 She was into witchcraft. She was fascinated. Talking to some 130 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:05.839 of her friends, she was fascinated by death. I know 131 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.560 she pet had died and she insisted on dragging her 132 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.800 friend along to dig up this pet. I think it 133 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.079 was a dog that died, or as a cat. And 134 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.319 she worked in a very reputable veterinarian place, and you know, 135 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:21.720 at times they have to put down animals or they 136 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:23.839 have to put them to sleep, and that's where she 137 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.519 sort of realized how you can drug people using hall 138 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:31.920 of Fane. And she wanted to get to Saint Catherine's 139 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:33.480 in the worst way. She was the kind of person 140 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:37.279 who wanted something better, something more in her life than 141 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.240 living in a Saint Catherine's is a wonderful community, but 142 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.279 she wanted, I don't know, to move on, maybe move 143 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.920 out to the States or something. And when Bernardo came along, 144 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.959 you know, here's this big shot guy from Toronto drives 145 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:54.360 a I think it was a Dats and Dats in 146 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.040 three hundred ssex, you know, like a very sporty car. 147 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.439 And you know he was National Lifeguard, which is a 148 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.120 you know, very well advanced lifeguard. And he seemed like 149 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.600 a very glitzy kind of guy. He was an accountant, 150 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.720 or so she thought that was just sort of his lies. 151 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.360 He wasn't really an account and he was never a 152 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.680 credited as an account and he was, you know, good looking, 153 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.240 well well built, and she bragged to her friends that, 154 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.279 you know, this was the guy for me. And she 155 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.439 was only I think seventeen, sixteen, seventeen and he was 156 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:29.519 twenty three. So there was quite an aging gap there 157 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:35.000 and then and then you know, and then, I if 158 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.840 you are sympathetic towards her, you'd think, well, then she 159 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:39.720 kind of got drawn in. And when she was drawn in, 160 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.919 she was hooked. And you know, those things happen. You know, 161 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:47.960 you get drawn into somebody, into a situation, and you 162 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.960 get in your in your you're sunk. But you know, 163 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.919 she had plenty of opportunities to leave and when she 164 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.279 realized what a monstery was, and she never did. And 165 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:56.440 that's I think that's what irritates a lot of us 166 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.720 that not irritated, but when we were sat through or 167 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:01.559 seek a trial and we had to listen to all 168 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.240 the things that she was involved, and we were just infuriated, 169 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:06.480 I guess the word. And we have to sit on 170 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.000 that for about two years until his trial came up. 171 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:12.600 He will let's go let's go back a little bit 172 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.639 because at the same time that this is happening, that 173 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:17.799 their relationship is unfolding, and she is talking to a 174 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.960 lot of her friends. You you describe in great detail 175 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.279 because some of the documents that you have that you're 176 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.519 privy to is that she has all these glowing terms 177 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.759 for her her fairy tale marriage. This is the man 178 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:36.000 of her life. She's planning an elaborate wedding and has 179 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.080 nothing extolling all the virtues of this man. But at 180 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.559 the same time, there's something going on in Scarborough. And 181 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:44.120 for our audience to say in the US, if you 182 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.600 can tell us a little bit when somebody says Scarborough, 183 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.080 we're still talking about Toronto. We're talking about an area Scarborough, 184 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.799 or apartment an area of Toronto. He can tell us 185 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:55.159 what was going on at the same time that their 186 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.120 fairy tale relationship was just beginning. 187 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:00.360 Well, he lived in He lived in an area of 188 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.039 Toronto called Guildwood, Guildwood Village, and it was something like 189 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.559 I'm dating myself here. It was like, we'll leave it 190 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:09.159 to Beaver would live it to middle to supper class, 191 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.159 middle middle class, supper class community. Probably one of the 192 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:15.759 safest places to live. There's you know, all the years 193 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.840 I covered crime. I never actually ventured into that area 194 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.279 until he came along, because there was nothing ever happened 195 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.480 on there of a criminal nature. And on the surface 196 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.159 of it, it seemed like he had a very you know, 197 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:28.559 his father was in the count and his mother was 198 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:32.399 a stay at home mom. However, you know, things are 199 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.320 not what they seem. The father later, as we found out, 200 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.120 was he pled guilty. He was convicted of sexual assault, 201 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.720 and I mean, I'd love to get into the details, 202 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.200 but we can't because the victim's identity is protected by 203 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.519 law and it still is. And you can imagine what 204 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.559 kind of impact that would have upon a child growing 205 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:54.320 up to see your father, you know, convicted of a 206 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.480 crime like that. His mother, she had her own issues, 207 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.039 and there was allegations that she was having in a 208 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.960 fair and that his dad wasn't a real dad, and 209 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:05.919 all that played upon him. 210 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.320 Isn't that what she told him at a certain age 211 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.559 she kept Yeah, and that. 212 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.279 Had that had a huge impact on him, obviously, and 213 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:19.799 then he developed like a nervous tick. And he I mean, 214 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.440 on the surface, he was like he was the you know, 215 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.480 the Barbie and Ken. He was the Ken. He was 216 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.480 here was a guy who was a lifeguard. He was 217 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.639 you know, good looking, you know, good build. He went 218 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.000 to university, although he took him three times to get 219 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:36.200 his degree, and he seemed like the perfect kind of guy. 220 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.399 Underneath the surface, he was just a monster. I mean, 221 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.240 he was a nurse. He suffered from narcissism, He was 222 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:48.320 a sexual sadist. He literally enjoyed pain. I mean, he 223 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.559 inflected a lot of pain on the women he assaulted, 224 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.960 and like he didn't really care. I mean it didn't 225 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:57.159 you know, didn't never crossed his path at these you 226 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.679 know that he was really violently hurting these women. He 227 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.879 just he had urges and he had to I mean, 228 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.240 to be graphic. He'd be driving along and he'd see 229 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.240 a woman that he liked on the street and he 230 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.559 would get aroused and you know, I have to go 231 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.519 and tay more details. He would just be, you know, 232 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:14.399 with himself and he'd be trying to pleasure himself. He 233 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.360 was that kind of guy. But I mean the police 234 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.080 who investigate him when he was eventually suspected of being 235 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:25.120 the rapist, he came across as an accountant, kind of 236 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:28.559 a you know, easygoing guy, good luck and. 237 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:31.840 The fact that he had no, the fact that he 238 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.960 had no criminal record records, no criminal record. 239 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:36.200 Yeah. And you know if he if he had lived 240 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.240 in a say in a lower class housing housing area 241 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.039 and he had a criminal record, the police probably would 242 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.080 have been a lot more interested in them. But he 243 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.000 just didn't fit the you know, the Hollywood mold for 244 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.039 a for a for a serial killer. He was, you know, 245 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.120 he was very outgoing, very good looking. He had a job, 246 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:54.639 he had a you know, he had a had a girlfriend. 247 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.240 He had lots of girlfriends, actually lots of girls liked them. 248 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:58.879 He went around with a lot of I think, I 249 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.240 think he one time he bragged that he could have 250 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:04.000 as many as three hundred women or something. And he 251 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.840 just didn't present the kind of character that you would think. 252 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.840 And underneath the surface, well, he had his urges and 253 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.480 he just when he had him, he was going to 254 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:16.879 satisfy him no matter what, no matter who he hurt 255 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:17.919 or no matter what he did. 256 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.639 Let's go back just a little bit because I wanted 257 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.960 to you outline Bernardo's background, and he does start off 258 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.039 with voyeurism, and there is an acceleration not to start 259 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.919 talking about that theory that some of these criminals start 260 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.200 at a certain point and then accelerate, and who knows 261 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.879 what they can do, but maybe let's talk a little 262 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:41.559 bit about that acceleration. He didn't go. You're already mentioning 263 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.559 serial murder, and maybe our audience is not sure what's 264 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.120 going on here with these Scarborough rapes. Like I said 265 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.559 at the same time that their relationship was just beginning 266 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:53.480 detail in your book. I these Scarborough rapes are going on. 267 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.399 And as far as you say in your book anyway 268 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:01.000 that Carla was not aware that you was dating this 269 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:02.399 rapist at that time, well. 270 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:08.159 He I he started out before long before he met Carla. 271 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.559 He was he was attacking women I think as many 272 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:18.039 as thirteen and he was, you know, he was literally 273 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.000 following buses around in the East end of Toronto, and 274 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.840 and you know, and uh when they ever when there 275 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:25.960 were women got off at a a lonely bus stop, 276 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:33.519 there was there was Bernardo and he he he was 277 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.720 he he sort of met her when he was after 278 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.960 committing about I can't remember the exact number, but he 279 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.039 met her and he confessed to her that he'd he 280 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.799 that he was doing all these rapes. And then one 281 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.480 of the victims saw sort of got a glimpse of 282 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.639 his face. They put out a very good sketch and 283 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.240 a lot of people recognized him, although not a lot 284 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.639 of people went to the police, and this I think 285 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.639 it was a woman at at a bank went to 286 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:02.960 the police and they brought him in for questioning. And uh, 287 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:06.480 he looked incredibly like the suspect, but again, he was 288 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:10.120 very glib or he was very he wasn't like you're 289 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.759 from your Central Casting type of villain. And uh, DNA 290 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.960 was just sort of coming into coming into you know, 291 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:20.519 just coming just coming online at that time. So when 292 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:25.120 they got his DNA sample, they they didn't they didn't 293 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.120 process it right away. And then once he once he 294 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:32.000 was questioned by police, he confessed to Carla and then 295 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:34.159 then the two of them moved out of Toronto. So 296 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.000 then the rape stopped. And what happens a lot of 297 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:40.240 times in these police investigations, you know, they have a 298 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:42.879 huge task force and they they probe it like crazy, 299 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:44.919 and then when the rape, when you know, the killing 300 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.159 stop or the rape stop, the task force kind of 301 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.759 just dissolved and and uh, you know, you know, you know, 302 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:55.600 when talking to the investigators, they wanted to stay with 303 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.039 the case, but you know, there were more. There were 304 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.759 no more sexual assaults going on in scarb. In fact, 305 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:02.879 they were moving to Saint. 306 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.960 Wait the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just 307 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:06.960 about anywhere. 308 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.639 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 309 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.600 weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a 310 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.879 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 311 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.559 just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest 312 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.600 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 313 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:21.720 start getting lucky. 314 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.360 Pay for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you 315 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.120 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 316 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.120 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 317 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.399 Bath Rooms and there was you know that let lapse 318 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.360 in there. So he told her, He told her when 319 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.440 he was sort of well into his you know, into 320 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.159 his into his spree of rapes and Scarborough and she, uh, 321 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:49.399 you know, I mean that was her first clue to 322 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.279 get out of this relationship. But she didn't. She you know, 323 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.960 she was portrayed as this, you know, is this abused 324 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.919 wife and all that. But you know, in all the 325 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.679 abused cases of that, I fall you know, or talk 326 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.240 to women usually they're you know, they don't have a 327 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.119 lot of a lot of education, they don't have a 328 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.359 lot of family, a lot of friends. Carla had all 329 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:10.440 of the above. She had family, she had friends, she 330 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:14.200 had a job. She did not she was not an 331 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.839 abused wife. She was she was a co accused who 332 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.559 got beaten up, I mean, And they try to portray 333 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:22.359 her as an abused wife to us, And I think 334 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.480 that's what infuriated most of us, Dan and it's to 335 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.279 this day, it still bothers me that that they were 336 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.680 trying to portray her as a battered wife, because you know, 337 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.119 all the battered women out there who are genuinely victims, 338 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.400 she's she's not in that category at all, all right, 339 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.240 So yeah, still, you know what, after all these years, 340 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.039 I still have strong feelings on that. When we first 341 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:44.839 heard it, had her secret trial there in Saint Catherinees, 342 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.920 you know, when the American media was shut out, none 343 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:48.480 of us could believe they were trying to tell us that. 344 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.279 We just there's no way she's just as guilty as 345 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.319 he is. She should, you know, she should still be 346 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:54.359 in jail to this day. 347 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:58.000 Well what did you make that determination though, before you 348 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.640 were aware of the videotapes or at least before you 349 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:06.519 were aware of the content of the videotapes. You know, 350 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.079 it's easy to see, you know, I mean everybody would 351 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:11.160 be affected by the videotapes. You made it very clear 352 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.759 in your book. I mean, when you read the contents, 353 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.759 let alone actually seen the video on a thirty screen. 354 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:20.720 It was what we heard. She set up her sister 355 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.480 to be raped by Bernardo. She drugged her sister like 356 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:28.119 she wasn't a virgin. He had this thing about having 357 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.839 only having virgins when he met her. She wasn't a virgin. 358 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.799 That bothered him. So her way of perhaps making up 359 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.119 for that was to set up her sister of the virgin, 360 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:43.960 which is sounds bizarre, but that's and then she, you know, 361 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:45.599 after setting up her sister, she set up a couple 362 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:47.559 of other young girls at the house where they live 363 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:48.519 in Saint Catherine's. 364 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:50.720 Well, let's get back to the sister. But let's get 365 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.000 back to the sister because this is the thing that 366 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.000 I think, I don't care how liberal minded you are. 367 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.599 You were reviled by the notion of this crime. So 368 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.960 let's go slow on this one, because this is the 369 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:05.519 most horrifying thing aspect of this completely is because especially 370 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.680 in reaction that they continued that they didn't fall apart 371 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.119 that they didn't they didn't, you know, commit suicide after this. 372 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.920 I mean, where do I start? I mean, the police, 373 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.400 the police watching the investigation, her wanting to set up 374 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:18.759 her sister. 375 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.279 I mean, well, let's go back with the night in question. 376 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.720 It's December twenty third. She is offering her sister, her 377 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.079 virginal fifteen year old sister, as a Christmas present to 378 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.759 her husband, who, like you have said, has a thing 379 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:38.119 for virgins, because Carla wasn't a virgin, and so she's 380 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:42.559 going to participate in this. What goes wrong? They drug 381 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:44.960 the girl. They how do they do that? They did use. 382 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.480 Carla worked in a veterinarian clinic and she had access 383 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:53.720 to halathane, which is the drug use to sedate you know, 384 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.319 animals or whatever. So with her idea that she'd use 385 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.680 a little bit of halothane on her sister, put her 386 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.039 to and Paul could do whatever he wanted, you know, 387 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.200 all his fantasies with the sister. And she would stay 388 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:09.519 there and she would monitor her breathing to make sure 389 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.400 everything was okay. Like I mean, I'm not making this up. 390 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.440 This is what we were hearing in the courtroom where 391 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:19.160 we were just incensed, and then they gave too much 392 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:24.519 hallathane and she choked on her own vomit. And what 393 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.440 happened was the the the it left a huge sort 394 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.160 of blue mark, bluish purplish mark on her face, on 395 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.359 her sort of on her cheek by side her mouth, 396 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.200 and the police recalled and two cops came in there, 397 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:39.599 and one was this very senior cop. The other was 398 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.000 a sort of a rookie. And the senior cop kind 399 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.440 of said, well, you know, it looks like an accident. 400 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:48.039 Blah blah blah. The junior cop suspicious as hell. I mean, 401 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:49.759