WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapists Podcast. My name is gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.439 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:20.199 So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome 6 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:22.679 back to the podcast. Very excited. How us My guest 7 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.320 today Zeta Tomlin Zetta Welcome. 8 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:27.760 Hi guy, Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward 9 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:29.600 to talking to you awesome. 10 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:33.479 Zetta is an author, therapist, coach and recognized leader in 11 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.799 the field of hypnotherapy. She's the chair of the British 12 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:41.280 Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists, vice chair of the UK Confederation 13 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.079 of Hypnotherapy Organizations, and she serves as a trustee for 14 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:49.600 the Research Council for Complimentary Medicine. Set has also served 15 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.960 as CEO of Children with Age Charity and Vice chair 16 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:57.840 of Mama Biashara charity supporting grassroots projects in Kenya. She's 17 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.079 the author of four books, The Trauma Effect, Exploring and 18 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:06.319 Resolving Inherited trauma, Genes, Don't Lie, Dnare Results and Family Secrets, 19 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:09.280 among others. Prior to her career in therapies that have 20 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:11.439 worked in the media as a director of Kronos Group 21 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.519 Publishing and his group head at News International Rights. That 22 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.239 up obviously obviously just a little bit about you, but 23 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.280 share with our listeners before you get going, where you're 24 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:24.359 from originally and where you are currently. 25 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.319 I was born in England and I live and work 26 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:34.000 in England, though sometimes across in Germany as well. And 27 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.120 I've had an interesting journey towards a work in therapy 28 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:44.840 through as you've outlined, a business background that then ended 29 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.359 up in the world of therapy through my own physical 30 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:50.560 illness that caused me to need to change direction and 31 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.879 then a whole lot of new learning came my way 32 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:55.760 on that journey. 33 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:59.319 Well that's the perfect entree, so let's go. How did 34 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:00.319 all this start for you? 35 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.840 I had viral and caphalitis and at the time I 36 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.159 was a CEO of a charity in London at the 37 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:08.240 peak of my career. 38 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:11.439 Viral and which is what It's a. 39 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:15.319 Bit like meningitis. The brain swells and you have all 40 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.520 sorts of physical problems and left me at the age 41 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:25.840 of thirty four with difficulties seeing I couldn't read, I 42 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.759 couldn't write, I couldn't watch television, I couldn't cope with 43 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.719 any light. So my life went from great success to 44 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:37.159 a sort of avoid of nothingness. And I was looking 45 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:43.319 at how to recover, and one day a friend suggested 46 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.039 I went for some hypnotherapy to help me with my 47 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.560 sleep and to help me kind of deal with the 48 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:53.240 situation I found myself in this sudden change. I think 49 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:55.560 the thing I found most difficult was I didn't know 50 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.719 how to be Zetta without the identity of my work 51 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.400 all the other things I'd been doing. I had to 52 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:07.560 really dig deep into myself my sense of identity, and 53 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.039 time is very long. When you can't read a book 54 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.919 or watch a television program, you really have to dig 55 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:18.879 deep into yourself. And I had this experience of hypnotherapy 56 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:19.360 which was. 57 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.120 Like, I gotta pause you here because you're saying these 58 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.479 amazing things and you're jumping over these juicy parts. So 59 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:31.560 way do it. You're you're you got this job, you're 60 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.560 loving it, you're successful. What were you doing specifically? 61 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:38.560 I was a CEO of a charity in London. 62 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.919 Okay, so how do these symptoms start to appear? 63 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.400 I just I just became really ill. One day I 64 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:50.319 had terrible head pain. I was being sick. I couldn't function. 65 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.479 I was just really really ill, and for six weeks 66 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.479 I couldn't get out of bed. You know, I was 67 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:57.360 really bad. 68 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:58.800 So you go to the doctor. 69 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.520 Yeah, well they're not sure at first, and then gradually 70 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:09.360 they decide I've got in catholitis and I had to 71 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.919 I'm told I need to change the way I live 72 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.199 my life. A doctor looked at me and said, well, 73 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:17.240 you know, you're not going to be able to read 74 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:18.560 a book again. You're not going to be able to 75 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.319 do all sorts of things, so just change the way 76 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:26.959 you live your life. And I'm somebody who I wasn't 77 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.279 prepared to just give in at this point. You know, 78 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.360 I could have just sort of said, well, this is 79 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.839 my life now, I'm going to be limited and just 80 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.720 do what I can do. But I wasn't prepared to 81 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:40.759 accept that that was the way things were. 82 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:43.480 What were the proposed treatments. 83 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:45.399 Well, it wasn't. I mean, once I'd recovered, I mean 84 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:47.720 I was no longer seriously ill, but it left brain 85 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.959 damage in my brain stem, and so it left me 86 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:54.560 with some problems. And it's how I was going to 87 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.920 live with those problems, and I bought it. I mean, 88 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:02.560 we're going back along time now. I'm sixty now, so 89 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.920 we're going back to technology was much more simple. But 90 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.120 I bought a huge scanner device that was worked like 91 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:12.800 a reading machine and it would read out text to 92 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.519 me so I could work, you know, get books. There 93 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:18.600 were some audio books available, but I was trying to think, 94 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:20.680 how can I manage my life? I got an audio 95 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:25.720 diary and all sorts of things. But over time, gradually 96 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:28.120 my site began to improve and things began to get 97 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:32.160 better for me. I think the hypnotherapy helped me a lot, 98 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:34.680 and it made me think I want to know how 99 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.480 to do this, so I started to become a hypnotherapist 100 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:38.079 at a time. 101 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.439 Hang on, hang on. What was talked to us about 102 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:47.000 your experience with hypnotherapy and how did you get to hypnotherapy? 103 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:50.199 Were you just like so desperate, try anything. 104 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.759 I'll try anything. And a friend recommended it to me 105 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:56.560 and said, have you thought of doing this? And I 106 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.160 had some hypnotherapy which got me sleeping properly again My 107 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.879 sleep had been very disturbed. Helped me with my pain management. 108 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:08.800 I had really bad headaches which were quite debilitating, and 109 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.120 I thought I want to understand how this works because 110 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:15.000 I'm feeling a lot better. I'm feeling physically a lot better, 111 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:20.959 psychologically a lot better. So I approached a trainer and said, 112 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.160 will you train me? I should I've never trained someone 113 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.680 who couldn't see to read and write. You know, obviously 114 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.800 we'll have to do things very slightly differently. I was 115 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:34.600 with a group of people. What was interesting about it was, though, 116 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.560 because I couldn't sit and read a script or look 117 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:40.839 things up. Everything had to be in my head. 118 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:42.759 So I. 119 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.959 Had to learn scripts I wrote. I had to learn 120 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.120 how it all worked. I took my exam orally, whereas 121 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.000 everyone else of writing an exam paper, I had to 122 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.560 answer questions that were directed to me. Obviously, you have 123 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:02.439 practical demonstrations as well. But I found it very, very 124 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:06.839 enjoyable and liberating and found I could do something. So 125 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.879 I started to work as a hypnotherapist as a time 126 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:14.519 when I was beginning to see more. I could take 127 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.519 a few notes, I could do a little bit, and 128 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:21.480 gradually I began to get more and more recovery. And 129 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:24.720 my doctors said, it's amazing, your brain has kind of 130 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.319 re rooted around the brain damaged area through the work 131 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.560 that you've done, and I've got I mean, I'm not 132 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.199 one hundred percent, but I've reached a level of recovery 133 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:37.319 I could never have dreamed of. 134 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:42.639 Take us, hang on, Zetta, Take us back to your 135 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:44.959 first experience with hypnotherapy. 136 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.800 Well, at first, I thought, this isn't going to work 137 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:52.920 for me. I don't know how, I don't know how 138 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:55.800 I'll relax into it. I feel, oh, I feel a 139 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:58.279 bit stressed and anxious. How's that going to be? But 140 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:02.399 within five minutes I was loving it, the relaxation I felt. 141 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:07.160 I finally felt someone had some answers for me, and 142 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:09.279 I responded really well to it. 143 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.800 So when you say hypnotherapy in your particular specific experience, 144 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.759 were was that a single episode? Was that multiple episodes. 145 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:25.519 Of all I had? I had some hypnotherapy a few sessions, 146 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.240 and then when I began to train, we all practiced 147 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:30.480 on each other and the trainer practiced on me. So 148 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.120 I was having quite regular hypnotherapy for about a year really, 149 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.960 And then you know, during that process, I got stronger 150 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.679 and stronger, and I continue to do a lot of 151 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:44.720 work with self hypnosis. You know, I changed the way 152 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:49.200 I lived my life a lot and understood the power 153 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.279 of suggestion and belief, and I wasn't prepared to believe 154 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.919 I was done at thirty four, you know, and so 155 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:01.960 I began to rebuild my life, and that belief I 156 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.600 think I had in myself helped my recovery. And I'm 157 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.039 not saying we can't Obviously we can't heal everything. I'm 158 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.799 not making any ground claims, but I think we can 159 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.759 work with certain conditions and using the power of belief too, 160 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.240 because if we believe things are going to go wrong, 161 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.600 they're more likely to do. So we just have to 162 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:24.840 look at the placebo effect and the no cibo effect. 163 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.200 I find that fascinating. I did a lot of research 164 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:34.039 in writing my books around the power of suggestion and 165 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.200 how people respond to this. For example, there was a 166 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:42.879 research project done at a university in Munich and they 167 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.759 were doing a trial of antidepressants and one of the 168 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.519 people on the trial took an overdose of a placebo 169 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:53.039 antidepressant but went into respiratory arrest and began, you know, 170 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.679 his system began to shut down because he believed he 171 00:09:55.720 --> 00:10:00.639 had taken an overdose and so just that belief had 172 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.360 made his system shut down. So what we believe is 173 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:08.080 so important, and I brought that passion into my work 174 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.799 that I do with my clients. Now, we're not big 175 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:14.919 on self disclosure to our clients because it's about them, 176 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.360 it's not about me. If I feel a little bit 177 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:20.559 about my story will help my client, then I will 178 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.360 tell them. And this took me on a longer journey 179 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.360 with what I learned from my clients and what made 180 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:32.360 me reflect more, which brought me more into trauma. I mean, 181 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.360 I guess what happened to me suddenly losing everything and 182 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.279 having to start again, that was a trauma. But I 183 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:42.879 began to look at how trauma affects a family. 184 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:45.399 Soft family. 185 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:50.080 Yeah, I found myself working as a hypnotherapist with people 186 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:55.399 obviously who've experienced trauma themselves, but also people who'd had 187 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:59.080 trauma within their family. So that could be a parent 188 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:03.360 or a sibling. There could be a suicide in the family, 189 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.279 or there could be abuse of a parent, a parent 190 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.399 could have been raped, or going back generations, I've worked 191 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:15.960 with quite a few grandchildren of Holocaust survivors, and I 192 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:21.320 began to notice in this work how trauma was affecting 193 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.000 everybody in the family. I guess I knew from my 194 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:26.399 own experience when I got ill and I couldn't work, 195 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:29.679 this affect my parents. They were really distressed about what 196 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.399 was going on for me, and their life changed as 197 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.440 a result because they had to support me a lot. 198 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.120 But then I was looking at other people's traumas in 199 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:42.080 their families and what sort of behaviors was it bringing in. 200 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:48.759 How were people being affected both physically and psychologically, And 201 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:53.919 I began to notice certain patterns which fascinated me, and 202 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:57.159 then I wanted to know more about it, and it 203 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:00.399 led to me reflecting again to my own story. Because 204 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.519 we learn most through ourselves, I think as a vehicle 205 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:07.480 that there was a trauma in my father's generation, and 206 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:12.679 I suddenly had a revelatory moment when I realized I 207 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:15.919 was still being affected by what had happened in his 208 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.879 family when he was younger, and how these things can 209 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:25.879 affect us with our psychological behaviors but also physically. I 210 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:29.279 just don't think we can separate the mind and the body. 211 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.960 I went to a PTSD conference in London a few 212 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:34.879 years ago, and a professor stood up and said, when 213 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:38.720 did we as physicians decide to separate the mind from 214 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:42.559 the body. We need to bring them back together because 215 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.639 people with trauma, for example, fifty percent of people with 216 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:53.240 trauma report pain, physical pain, and there's also medically undiagnosed 217 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:57.919 symptoms that people with trauma present with. Now, if you've 218 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:01.200 grown up in a family with someone with trauma, what 219 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:07.480 are you learning in that environment? And this is what fascinates. 220 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.879 Me, whether consciously or subconsciously. 221 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:14.279 Right, often subconscious. For example, I'll give you an example. 222 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.759 If you have a wounded parent, as I had. I 223 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.000 had a wounded father, your care all goes into supporting 224 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.600 that person. You want them to be okay. You don't 225 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.679 understand what's wrong. There's possibly secrecy around what is wrong 226 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.759 because you're a child and you're not allowed to necessarily know, 227 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:37.000 And so you start to protect the wounded parent. You 228 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.679 go into giving mode. And they talk about this idea 229 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:45.919 of merging. You merge with a wounded parent, and therefore 230 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:51.360 your boundaries become weak, and it's all about we and 231 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.919 not about I, and you don't develop a strong sense 232 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:57.399 of self. And if you haven't developed a strong sense 233 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.279 of self, your boundaries will be very weak in all 234 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.120 your relationships. And I began to notice this within the 235 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:09.080 clients I was working with so often a wounded parent, 236 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.519 often a mother actually in a lot of the work 237 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:13.879 I've done, though in my case I had a kind 238 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.279 of a wounded father. But protecting the parent becomes really 239 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.440 important at the detriment of the child, and then they 240 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.159 learn about you know, they have to look after everybody 241 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.480 and they don't look after themselves. And this comes out 242 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.919 a lot with people who've been in a family where 243 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:40.919 there's trauma also loyalty to the family. We pull together 244 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.480 to deal with this trauma that's happened in our family 245 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.559 and repel kind of all outsiders. You have to stay 246 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.559 loyal and there's a price to that loyalty. You develop 247 00:14:52.720 --> 00:15:01.000 unconscious patterns around different behaviors which might be guilt, blame, shame, 248 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.639 and these things are more likely to happen if the 249 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.879 trauma event that's affected the family is something that's sort 250 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:14.320 of socially difficult, like there's a suicide in the family. 251 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.879 We don't talk about it. We mustn't talk about it. 252 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.360 It doesn't look good for our family that that's happened. 253 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:21.679 Let me just pause you here for a second. I'm 254 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.799 really struck by your stories that I mean, here, you 255 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:30.480 were the CEO of this children's charity. You start to 256 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:36.240 experience these symptoms which have this major impact and influence 257 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:42.919 on your life and your health, and you're The way 258 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:47.279 you're speaking now is would you ever thought that you'd 259 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:53.360 be sitting here talking about I mean, it's really amazing, 260 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:57.799 and it's it's so inspiring to hear you. The shift 261 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.000 that unfolded for you. 262 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.720 It was life changing, and you know you have these 263 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.960 people will say sometimes, oh, a terrible thing happened to me, 264 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:10.480 but the good came out of it. I mean, I 265 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.399 don't know if you've you know, Michael J. Fox has 266 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:16.399 talked about his Parkinson's and how it has changed his 267 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.799 life in a positive way as well as obviously all 268 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:26.639 the negatives and my kind of illness took me on 269 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:28.759 a completely different direction. I would never have dreamt of 270 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.360 been a therapist. I was a very businesswoman type person. No, 271 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:34.559 I was very organized, telling people what to do. 272 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.480 And it's so interesting because obviously the way you were 273 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:43.799 speaking and the work you've done, it's almost like, well, 274 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.519 I'm correct me if I'm wrong here, but you tapped 275 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.720 into this other strength resource energy, like you opened this 276 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.039 other door in your being. 277 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.799 And I have to say I'm much happier as a 278 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.720 therapist than I ever was as a c And each day, 279 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.039 you know, I'm working with a lot of individuals with 280 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.200 really awful stories, you know, and when you see their 281 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.880 lives begin to shift and they're beginning to heal, this 282 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.599 is just so wonderful, isn't it. I mean, it's just 283 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.000 what a gift to be able to help somebody. I 284 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.319 can't andy. It sounds trit doesn't it, But it really 285 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:22.079 is wonderful. 286 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:28.039 I don't want to remind everyone I'm speaking with. Zeta Tomlin, 287 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:32.920 author therapist coach. Her books include The Trauma Effect as 288 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:37.920 well as The Healing Metaphor and self Help self Hypnosis. 289 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.319 So let me ask you something and I kind of 290 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:45.880 miss this here, but what drew you to this topic 291 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:47.640 of trauma in your clients? 292 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.720 I think it just it intrigued me because I saw 293 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.799 the impact it was happening on everyone around them, whether 294 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.039 I was working with the individual who was traumatized, or 295 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.920 whether I was working with someone from a family whether 296 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:06.359 was trauma. I was incredibly aware of the impact that 297 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.079 was rippling out. Just fascinated me. You know, there was 298 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.720 one family in which there was a suicide and I 299 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:18.440 ended working with the mother, three cousins, a grandmother, you know, 300 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.599 all people in this family. I helped one and then 301 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:22.960 they said, all you know, go and see Zestra shall 302 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:25.039 help you deal with this. And I was working through 303 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.119 different family members to help them move through that experience. 304 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:34.200 And you know, I find myself quite often working with 305 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.799 more than one member of a family because they've been 306 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.480 affected by the same issue, but it may have manifested 307 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.839 in different ways for them. 308 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:48.079 Are you using a solely hypnotherapy. 309 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.240 I use I use hypnotherapy, I use CBT, I use NLC, 310 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:57.160 and I do some coaching work with people, so it's 311 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.599 kind of a blend and it depends what suits individual. 312 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:08.039 And I think my own journey of healing, whether it 313 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.920 be my illness and getting back on track. And I've 314 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:14.359 worked with quite a few people who have had serious 315 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:18.680 illnesses that need help getting back on track. One in particular, 316 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:23.480 who had really extreme grief when their father died. They 317 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.599 were very close to the father, and then they didn't 318 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:29.680 cope well with that grief. Then they became very seriously 319 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:34.960 unwell and it took them a couple of years to 320 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.960 begin to recover. And someone send them to me, and 321 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.519 I've helped her on her journey of recovery, and she's 322 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.880 now talking to other people about how you recover from 323 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.799 illness when you've been in a state of real distress, 324 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.559 and how you need to deal often with what's underneath it, 325 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.039 like for her, that terrible grief. We had to work 326 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.559 with that as part of her journey to healing her 327 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:08.599 physical illness. So it's just interesting how many different ways 328 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.839 trauma can come into people's lives, and often it's not 329 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.680 your own, you know, if it's somebody else, it's trauma, 330 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:21.079 and you learn from them, for example, to dissociate from 331 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.400 emotional situations, because that's what your parents does, so that's 332 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:27.960 what you then do. It's not your problem, it's their problem, 333 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.119 but you're enacting their response to that problem, and you're 334 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.440 going to carry that into your children's lives, you know. 335 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.680 I've read so widely on this, a lovely book by 336 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.680 a woman called Emily wander Cohen called Generation after Generation, 337 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:49.599 and her mother was in a concentration camp, and there 338 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.599 were many ways in which this affected bringing up her children. 339 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.359 But one was a perfectionism her mother, because she'd been 340 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:59.039 in a concentration camp. You don't want to draw attention 341 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.680 to yourself by getting something wrong, you have to keep 342 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:04.599 be right. You have to be good to stay safe. 343 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.000 You know, that's how you stay safe. So she had 344 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:12.839 this incredible perfectionism which she brought into her family, and 345 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.200 then they were trying to live up to this perfectionism 346 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:17.839 and it created a lot of problems for them. So 347 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:23.759 it's so interesting how you trace the psychological responses to 348 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.920 a trauma. But how infect I think, in fact is 349 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.400 not too strong a word a family and then everyone 350 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:36.279 is responding to that and learning different ways of being. 351 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.319 Guilt is something that so many families have. For example, 352 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.200 if there's a suicide in a family, everyone takes on 353 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:48.480 guilt for not having saved that person, and then that 354 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.200 might go on to the next generation that that guilt. Shame, 355 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.319 you know, I'm ashamed of my family. Shame is a 356 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.839 very interesting emotion because in our development it had a role. 357 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.519 I'm sure you've come across this that we have to 358 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.519 be safe, we had to be part of the tribe, 359 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:09.680 and so we don't want to do anything that will 360 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.039 get us ejected from the tribe or we will die 361 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.079 in isolation. So shame was an emotion that developed for 362 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:20.359 us to keep us behaving in a certain way, to 363 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:26.079 keep us safe within the tribe. So shame can come 364 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.039 into a family where something's happened. Maybe it could be 365 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.119 an abuse, situational rape, but also it is that you 366 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.960 can feel shame. But if it's not your shame, and 367 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.039 you learn shame, how can you deal with it? Because 368 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.519 it's not your shame or blame? You know, the safe 369 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.240 thing to do is to blame someone else for what 370 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:51.440 happens to me. And so we learn to blame other 371 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:56.680 people rather than taking responsibility for our own lives. And 372 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:59.079 blame is a really passive place to be. It's a 373 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.960 stark place to be because if you're projecting out and 374 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.440 blaming somebody else, you're stuck in a passive position. You're 375 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:10.599 not taking control. And these are all the kinds of 376 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:15.000 emotions that come into the trauma situation. So I came 377 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.680 to it, I guess from my own trauma and how 378 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.799 I responded to that. But then I began to reflect 379 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:24.799 on my family trauma and what happened in my father's generation, 380 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.000 which happened before I was born, and I remember Sai. 381 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:33.880 Well, obviously you've found out about that through curiosity and research. 382 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.079 Yeah, and I've been told I was never allowed to 383 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.079 ask questions about I mean, in brief, and I don't 384 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.759 want to get into the insouts of it. But my 385 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.920 aunt and her three children all died, and this was 386 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.839 something that wasn't talked about. There was a picture of 387 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.880 her in my grandmother's home, but we didn't talk about it. 388 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.079 So it was a secret. And secrets are really scary. 389 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:02.359 Secrets make us quite fear full, and dealing with the 390 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:08.319 reality is often better than the secret. There's a really 391 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.839 good writer who wrote a book, Gabrielle Schwab, on the 392 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.240 haunting of secrets and trauma in a family. And it's 393 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.480 like fighting shadows because you don't know what it is. 394 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.480 I wasn't allowed to know about it. My father, up 395 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.599 until he died, said I don't want you to research this. 396 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.720 I want you to promise me not to look into this, 397 00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:32.119 because I don't want you to be hurt by what 398 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.880 happened in the family. And I am hurt by what 399 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.160 happened in the family. You know, you've had this secret 400 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.079 all these years. You won't talk about it. And as 401 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:44.920