WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.020 --> 00:00:05.509 Good morning, everyone. I'm Susan Dimas, the executive editor here 2 00:00:05.549 --> 00:00:06.269 at Lincoln Square. 3 00:00:06.290 --> 00:00:09.990 And I'm Sam Osterhout, the executive producer here at Lincoln Square. 4 00:00:10.009 --> 00:00:13.310 And welcome to the weekly assignment where Sam and I 5 00:00:13.349 --> 00:00:15.689 talk with you about what's coming up this week on 6 00:00:15.730 --> 00:00:19.129 Lincoln Square, the latest headlines, and what we can all 7 00:00:19.190 --> 00:00:23.609 do to fight back against authoritarianism. Today, we have Dr. 8 00:00:23.649 --> 00:00:25.449 Rob Davidson joining us again. 9 00:00:26.379 --> 00:00:26.719 Dr. 10 00:00:26.780 --> 00:00:30.460 Rob is Executive Director of the Committee to Protect Healthcare. 11 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.710 He's an ER physician in West Michigan, and he is 12 00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:36.810 the co-host of the Paging America podcast, and you can 13 00:00:36.869 --> 00:00:41.149 find him on Substack. Dr. Davidson, thank you so much 14 00:00:41.189 --> 00:00:41.729 for being here. 15 00:00:42.340 --> 00:00:43.679 Yeah, it's great to be here with both of you. 16 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:46.200 I've talked to each of you individually, but I feel 17 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:47.399 privileged to be on with both of you. 18 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:47.659 Thanks. 19 00:00:48.140 --> 00:00:52.329 Oh, thank you. Well, I think we should probably start 20 00:00:52.429 --> 00:00:57.250 with this latest measles outbreak because we are a little 21 00:00:57.270 --> 00:01:01.570 bit south of 3,000 measles cases, which is the highest 22 00:01:01.609 --> 00:01:06.019 we've seen in this country since 1991. We've already blown 23 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:10.099 past the number of cases we had last year. And 24 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:15.200 this year, we have at least one measles death in Pennsylvania, 25 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.810 another that could be related. And I know you are 26 00:01:19.930 --> 00:01:22.920 in the ER almost every day. You're kind of the 27 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:26.519 first line of defense. What are you seeing out there 28 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:29.760 in terms of where we're at with measles and other 29 00:01:29.819 --> 00:01:31.040 infectious diseases? 30 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:34.180 Yeah, I don't currently work in states where there are 31 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:38.140 massive outbreaks happening, you know, thankfully. I'm not in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, 32 00:01:38.180 --> 00:01:39.859 where that kind of the focus has been the last 33 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.219 week or so. But like, we're always vigilant. And I 34 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:45.989 think the key is like, you know, you're always vigilant 35 00:01:46.030 --> 00:01:48.349 for even, even weird things. Uh, we're always taught if 36 00:01:48.390 --> 00:01:51.329 you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras, you know, measles 37 00:01:51.409 --> 00:01:54.069 used to be a zebra, right? Those things that you're 38 00:01:54.090 --> 00:01:58.409 not thinking it's very likely. Um, it's definitely, uh, when 39 00:01:58.450 --> 00:02:00.090 you see a kid with a rash and a fever, 40 00:02:00.109 --> 00:02:02.909 I mean, most of them aren't measles, you know, but 41 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:05.530 you're definitely given a second look, you're looking inside their 42 00:02:05.549 --> 00:02:06.989 cheek for other certain findings. 43 00:02:07.030 --> 00:02:08.870 You're, you're even like going. 44 00:02:08.689 --> 00:02:11.599 Back to your desktop station and kind of doing a 45 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:14.819 little search because I'd be honest, I haven't seen measles, right? Thankfully, 46 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.340 I practice in an era in which measles basically has 47 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:23.360 been gone. And so it's sort of an emerging thing 48 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:26.930 for those of us who are kind of later career physicians, 49 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.569 sort of, we have to re-engage with these diseases. We 50 00:02:29.669 --> 00:02:34.490 thought we had if not eradicated, at least made essentially 51 00:02:34.789 --> 00:02:38.770 zero by mass vaccination programs, and they're coming back. 52 00:02:39.469 --> 00:02:44.310 But we've seen vaccination rates fall across the country. There 53 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:47.969 are some states where there are no counties that actually 54 00:02:48.069 --> 00:02:53.229 are at herd immunity, at 95% immunity. And our Department 55 00:02:53.250 --> 00:02:56.639 of Health and Human Services is run by RFK Jr., 56 00:02:56.569 --> 00:03:01.460 who is probably the most famous anti- vaccine activists out there. 57 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:05.080 So can you talk with us about the impact of 58 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:10.509 this anti-vax movement and the impact it's having on people's health, 59 00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:12.030 especially children? 60 00:03:13.150 --> 00:03:15.389 Yeah, and I think that's the real shame because kids 61 00:03:15.469 --> 00:03:17.689 have no say in it, right? 62 00:03:17.810 --> 00:03:18.620 They were born. 63 00:03:18.659 --> 00:03:21.460 They were born into a world in which there's massive 64 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:25.620 streams of disinformation about so much, but certainly about vaccines 65 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:29.599 and And sometimes their parents have kind of bought into that. 66 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:32.699 When I see a family bring their kid in and 67 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:37.599 they currently say, no, we don't vaccinate. I've never, and 68 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.289 even more so, I try so hard not to feel judgment. 69 00:03:41.810 --> 00:03:45.629 Certainly never would express that. Because I think these parents, 70 00:03:45.990 --> 00:03:48.129 I know as I see them with their kid, they 71 00:03:48.189 --> 00:03:49.909 love their kid as much as I love my kid's. 72 00:03:50.530 --> 00:03:52.610 and they think they're doing the right thing for their kids, 73 00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:55.840 and they've been steered astray. So really, our ire should 74 00:03:55.849 --> 00:04:00.039 be focused on the kind of influencers peddling disinformation and 75 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:00.930 profiting off of it. 76 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:01.680 RFK Jr. 77 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:03.919 you know, at the Children's Health Defense, you know, he 78 00:04:03.979 --> 00:04:07.560 profited off of lawsuits against the vaccine makers of Gardasil 79 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:11.639 that actually prevents cervical cancer, like a vaccine that presents cancer, 80 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.439 and the guy made money off of suing them. I mean, 81 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:16.800 and so it's really troubling because those are the people 82 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.040 we should be, you know, upset with and somehow going 83 00:04:20.100 --> 00:04:25.310 after Somehow, right? And implicating them, genuinely implicating them in 84 00:04:25.490 --> 00:04:28.529 these preventable illnesses and sometimes preventable deaths. 85 00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:34.389 Yeah, and we have a clip of RFK Jr. talking 86 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:36.829 about it. Let's roll that clip and we'll discuss. 87 00:04:37.810 --> 00:04:38.550 We'll say this. 88 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:44.480 In 10 years, there have been three measles deaths in America. 89 00:04:45.819 --> 00:04:51.389 There are now about 1.2 million deaths every year from 90 00:04:51.610 --> 00:05:03.680 food-induced illness. The media and certain demagogue politicians are constantly 91 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:05.800 trying to scare us about infectious disease. 92 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:07.680 And we take the. 93 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:11.319 Attention away from the chronic disease that is being caused 94 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:17.120 by powerful entities, by big food companies, by big pharmaceutical companies, 95 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.120 And what I'm trying to do as HHS Secretary, one, 96 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:25.480 deal with the infectious disease outbreaks, which we're doing, but 97 00:05:25.579 --> 00:05:29.600 also redirect attention and resources to the thing that's really 98 00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:35.160 killing Americans, which are foodborne diseases. 99 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.519 So, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. First 100 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.300 is that, like, obviously. 101 00:05:42.569 --> 00:05:45.029 Because we need to focus on food, we can't focus 102 00:05:45.089 --> 00:05:47.329 on infectious diseases, which is a silly thing to say, 103 00:05:47.389 --> 00:05:51.490 but also that the measure of the impact of measles 104 00:05:51.610 --> 00:05:55.060 is only on the number of people it kills. Right, right. 105 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:57.819 Which is not, do you want to, does anybody really 106 00:05:57.860 --> 00:05:58.639 want to get measles? 107 00:05:59.319 --> 00:05:59.959 Right, right. 108 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.399 Yeah, I mean, he made it sound, from five years 109 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:03.980 ago in Lancaster County, he made it sound like it 110 00:06:04.019 --> 00:06:05.420 was a walk in the park. He got to sit 111 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:08.420 home and watch TV. Here's what he's also saying there is, 112 00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:11.420 There have only been that many deaths, right? Not that 113 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:13.699 many cases. This year is one of those years, like 114 00:06:13.779 --> 00:06:16.339 we've just blown past last year and the most in 115 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:17.300 35 years, as you said. 116 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:19.060 Why do we think that is? 117 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:22.670 It's because of the vaccine for measles. Let's go to 118 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.670 the 10 years before the MMR vaccine, right? Let's look 119 00:06:26.689 --> 00:06:28.889 at how many deaths or how many illnesses, how many 120 00:06:28.930 --> 00:06:33.399 severe illnesses We had cases of encephalitis, pneumonia, people in 121 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.189 the ICU. I don't have that data at my fingertips. 122 00:06:36.230 --> 00:06:39.850 He could certainly find it, but he's almost proving the point. Yeah, 123 00:06:40.129 --> 00:06:42.389 in the last 10 years, not that many deaths. That's 124 00:06:42.430 --> 00:06:45.110 a good thing, right? That's a really good thing. Thank 125 00:06:45.129 --> 00:06:46.149 you to vaccines. 126 00:06:46.209 --> 00:06:46.910 Thank you, MMR. 127 00:06:47.209 --> 00:06:49.430 The problem is the numbers are waning and he has 128 00:06:49.490 --> 00:06:52.750 got this huge mouthpiece. He's had a big platform. 129 00:06:52.850 --> 00:06:53.579 He's used it. 130 00:06:53.910 --> 00:06:57.360 Like you said, he's probably the most famous vaccine denier 131 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.170 or anti-vax influencer out there. but now he's got the 132 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:04.230 ultimate megaphone, right? He's got HHS, he's got all the 133 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:07.089 levers of the government and they can alter the CDC website, 134 00:07:07.110 --> 00:07:09.910 which has happened multiple times related to these cases out 135 00:07:09.970 --> 00:07:11.829 of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. 136 00:07:12.970 --> 00:07:14.290 So yeah, I think all of that. 137 00:07:14.329 --> 00:07:17.000 The other piece is like, okay, so if foodborne illness 138 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:19.139 is a big deal, yes, we should be doing both, right? 139 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:21.000 You're running a big department, you should be able to 140 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:24.500 handle both of those things. What department of the government 141 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.879 is tasked to prevent people from dying of foodborne illness? 142 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.160 Also the one that he runs seems like maybe something 143 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:32.079 wrong there, you know? 144 00:07:32.100 --> 00:07:32.990 Yeah. 145 00:07:33.019 --> 00:07:33.230 Right. 146 00:07:33.939 --> 00:07:34.120 Right. 147 00:07:34.139 --> 00:07:37.290 I mean, we, we have seen just a rash of, 148 00:07:37.629 --> 00:07:42.170 of recalls during the summer. Oh, sorry. 149 00:07:42.189 --> 00:07:43.910 Too on the nose there. Yeah. 150 00:07:44.310 --> 00:07:47.449 But I mean, it's, it's every, everything from lettuce to 151 00:07:47.509 --> 00:07:53.560 blueberries to jalapenos, guacamole, salsa, donuts, tofu. 152 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:53.680 Yeah. 153 00:07:54.779 --> 00:07:57.319 And that's just off the top of my head. There 154 00:07:57.339 --> 00:08:01.939 have been many more. Doctor, can you talk with us 155 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:08.019 about the fact that under HHS, we've had fewer inspections 156 00:08:08.259 --> 00:08:12.379 of companies. We've had a lot of staff that has 157 00:08:12.420 --> 00:08:16.800 been purged from Doge that were responsible for some of 158 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.790 these agencies that maybe people thought were boring, but were 159 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:25.610 actually doing life-saving work. And in addition to people being 160 00:08:25.699 --> 00:08:28.930 sick and thousands of people, we have had some deaths 161 00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:35.129 due to these recalls. Can you talk with us about 162 00:08:35.169 --> 00:08:38.549 what the situation is there and what it would look 163 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:43.149 like to have a functional HHS during these times? 164 00:08:44.129 --> 00:08:44.330 Yeah. 165 00:08:44.370 --> 00:08:46.830 I mean, you look at the departments under HHS, particularly 166 00:08:46.850 --> 00:08:51.159 the FDA, USDA, that might be under agriculture, but You know, 167 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:53.789 they are tasked with like the whole of government is 168 00:08:53.830 --> 00:08:56.710 tasked with so many things in our daily lives. 169 00:08:56.769 --> 00:08:57.690 One of them we should. 170 00:08:57.549 --> 00:09:00.470 Expect is that our food supplies are safe, you know, 171 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:01.940 that we don't have to think about it. And I 172 00:09:01.980 --> 00:09:04.399 go back and forth because public health and the government 173 00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:07.320 related to public health should be out there communicating regularly 174 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.009 with us. about what they're doing and about, you know, 175 00:09:10.049 --> 00:09:12.059 kind of how they're keeping us safe. But a lot 176 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.779 of what they do should go sort of unnoticed. You 177 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:17.379 shouldn't have to, like, think twice before you take a 178 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.820 bite of a burrito with lettuce on it. And now, 179 00:09:19.899 --> 00:09:22.600 I mean, let's, I don't, I hate making predictions, but now, 180 00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:25.019 I don't know if you saw the interview with Trump, 181 00:09:25.059 --> 00:09:25.899 with Glenn Beck on. 182 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.480 The Blaze about cattle, about processing of beef. 183 00:09:29.539 --> 00:09:32.000 And like, we need to relax, you know, that so 184 00:09:32.019 --> 00:09:34.159 they can process it, you know, at the ranch or, 185 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:37.509 you know, smaller processors. And Trump then announced the next day, 186 00:09:37.529 --> 00:09:40.419 you know, I don't know how legit this announcement is. 187 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:42.519 It came via his true social, but like he wants 188 00:09:42.580 --> 00:09:48.559 to deregulate that. Now, fewer inspections, let him just process it. Cyclosporiasis, yes, 189 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:50.980 there were a couple of deaths in my state of Michigan. 190 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.029 Mostly a nuisance, a really nasty nuisance you don't want, 191 00:09:55.090 --> 00:09:56.429 you know, the explosive diarrhea. 192 00:09:56.830 --> 00:09:58.549 Like contaminated beef, E. 193 00:09:58.610 --> 00:09:59.110 Coli, 01578. 194 00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:04.580 0157H7, like that causes kidney failure. Like young people, like we, 195 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:08.070 I remember back in the day, this may be gosh, eighties, nineties, 196 00:10:08.110 --> 00:10:09.730 the Jack in the box out in the West coast, 197 00:10:10.129 --> 00:10:13.330 you know, big problem with hamburgers. I mean, We see 198 00:10:13.389 --> 00:10:14.470 cases sporadically. 199 00:10:14.509 --> 00:10:15.870 We see little mini outbreaks. 200 00:10:15.929 --> 00:10:19.830 If we start having now the deregulation and lack of 201 00:10:19.909 --> 00:10:23.710 inspections of our beef supply, Trump also somehow made some 202 00:10:23.789 --> 00:10:24.960 deal for cheap beef. 203 00:10:24.980 --> 00:10:26.460 I don't know about you. 204 00:10:26.500 --> 00:10:28.759 I don't want the word cheap to be in front 205 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:32.879 of the food that I'm getting as like a positive thing. 206 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:36.340 We don't have to cost less, yes, but to have 207 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.850 the government find us sources of these foods that they 208 00:10:39.889 --> 00:10:43.519 call cheap, seems, seems like, like the recipe for disaster. 209 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:48.259 Um, I, you know, I, I wonder about RFK Jr. 210 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.759 and his, you know, Trump has no sort of center, right? 211 00:10:52.830 --> 00:10:57.149 He doesn't have a belief system other than Trump, other 212 00:10:57.190 --> 00:11:01.490 than himself. But RFK Jr. uh, is one of these 213 00:11:01.549 --> 00:11:07.490 guys who, you know, exudes belief system, right? Uh, he, it's, 214 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:12.809 it's a, um, a blind faith in his own sort 215 00:11:12.830 --> 00:11:13.789 of wisdom. 216 00:11:13.809 --> 00:11:15.210 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 217 00:11:15.250 --> 00:11:17.690 What is the center of that? Is it just that 218 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:21.669 he believes the human body was meant to heal itself 219 00:11:21.990 --> 00:11:22.480 or that. 220 00:11:24.539 --> 00:11:26.399 Where does this shit come from? 221 00:11:27.620 --> 00:11:29.600 I mean, maybe the brain worm. I don't know. 222 00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:33.639 But, you know, it seems like he's come to this 223 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:38.679 job and certainly came to prominence with a deep distrust, A, 224 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:42.059 of vaccines, but B, of, and this was accelerated during COVID, 225 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.779 of sort of the deep, quote, deep state, right? The 226 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.500 apparatus put in place to keep us safe. And he 227 00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:51.799 sort of has a conception of ulterior motives of those 228 00:11:51.870 --> 00:11:55.370 of us simply trying to protect folks, simply trying to 229 00:11:55.409 --> 00:11:58.889 keep people safe. You know, he's peddled the disinformation about 230 00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:02.309 COVID back during the pandemic at the peak of it. 231 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:05.620 And continues to do so with vaccines now. 232 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:08.120 He even refers back to COVID, like, oh, they're talking 233 00:12:08.179 --> 00:12:09.779 about it like they did during COVID. 234 00:12:10.220 --> 00:12:12.519 Whenever I talked about what was happening. 235 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.559 Related to COVID, it was like what we were literally 236 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:17.120 seeing in the hospital, people who were blue with an 237 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.759 oxygen of 50% being pulled out of their cars and 238 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:22.639 put into a gurney and trying to save their life. 239 00:12:23.110 --> 00:12:25.850 And just trying to give people a little bit of 240 00:12:25.889 --> 00:12:27.950 a look behind the curtain, like, this is what's actually 241 00:12:27.990 --> 00:12:30.110 going on. Here's why you should try not to get 242 00:12:30.169 --> 00:12:33.289 this thing. And, and so he comes to it with that. 243 00:12:33.769 --> 00:12:36.389 And if you have that preconceived notion, you can find 244 00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:39.370 so much information. 245 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:41.019 Out there to corroborate that, right. 246 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:44.200 To, to, to like, you get this, this bias going 247 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.200 in and there's all sorts of people putting out fake 248 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.470 studies and, and, and what they're calling research, you know, the, 249 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:53.250 If you look at like drugs like ivermectin, where people 250 00:12:53.289 --> 00:12:55.549 will say, well, I treated thousands of people with ivermectin 251 00:12:55.570 --> 00:12:57.820 and none of them died of COVID. A, we don't 252 00:12:57.860 --> 00:13:00.159 know if that's true. B, I mean, if I treat 253 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:02.580 thousands of people who are otherwise healthy with a glass 254 00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:05.139 of water who had COVID, the vast majority of those 255 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:05.840 people aren't going to die. 256 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:07.539 Maybe none of them will die. And I don't think 257 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.179 it had anything to do with the glass of water. 258 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:12.870 But RFK Jr. latches onto that and then repeats it 259 00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:15.909 and does it at the highest level. And there you go. 260 00:13:16.009 --> 00:13:19.929 Conspiracy theory, you know, exploded. It's yeah, it's tough. 261 00:13:21.070 --> 00:13:25.340 I mean, even, look, back then, friends of mine who 262 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.000 knew better would say things like, there was a panel 263 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:32.559 on ivermectin, and a doctor talked about it in front 264 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:35.100 of Congress, and that video is nowhere to be found. 265 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.570 And of course, I go to C-SPAN, and it's just 266 00:13:38.250 --> 00:13:40.950 right there. You just have to search for it. But 267 00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:45.450 because it was bullshit, nobody played it anymore. And so 268 00:13:45.850 --> 00:13:51.639 it's just these causations, correlations, that don't make sense to 269 00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:55.389 some people. And it's, it's, uh, uh, very dangerous. 270 00:13:55.830 --> 00:13:58.370 We used to, so I remember in training, we always 271 00:13:58.409 --> 00:14:01.490 tried to, and I still do try to practice evidence-based medicine, right? 272 00:14:01.789 --> 00:14:04.820 Whatever the best evidence shows at the time and evidence changes, 273 00:14:04.889 --> 00:14:07.919 data changes, and we have to adjust. But that there 274 00:14:07.940 --> 00:14:10.779 was a thing that people would call eminence-based medicine. Like 275 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:14.360 if someone, an eminent physician would say something was true, 276 00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:16.779 people would latch onto that. And that kind of was 277 00:14:16.820 --> 00:14:19.659 how medicine was practiced for a very long time because 278 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.490 we didn't have anything else, you know, like so-and-so said, 279 00:14:22.529 --> 00:14:24.669 this was the truth. And it's like, okay, we're going 280 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:26.570 to go down that path. Well, I feel like in 281 00:14:26.649 --> 00:14:29.450 RFK Jr. 's world and sort of this world of 282 00:14:29.509 --> 00:14:34.950 anti-vax and distrust of organized medicine, there's a lot of that, right? 283 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:37.100 They get a name that they trust that they think, 284 00:14:37.269 --> 00:14:39.679 you know, speaking the truth and like whatever they say 285 00:14:39.700 --> 00:14:42.679 and whatever little data points they'll put out there, they 286 00:14:42.710 --> 00:14:45.850 latch onto it. And, and RFK Jr. I think is 287 00:14:45.889 --> 00:14:47.990 somewhat of a victim to that. I mean, he wants to, right. 288 00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:49.909 He is, he is primed and he's ready to go. 289 00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:52.330 So like the guy's not innocent and all this, but 290 00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:54.250 he doesn't know any better. You can tell when he 291 00:14:54.289 --> 00:14:56.769 talks the kind of the fake science mumbo jumbo that 292 00:14:56.809 --> 00:15:00.470 he uses, he clearly doesn't understand what he's talking about, 293 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:02.990 but he says it with some degree of authority and 294 00:15:03.070 --> 00:15:06.309 challenges reporters. Like, why don't you know this? And, and 295 00:15:06.350 --> 00:15:08.029 that's the clip. That's what people see. 296 00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:12.909 What, RFK Jr. seems to be very skilled at doing 297 00:15:13.289 --> 00:15:18.230 is exploiting people's fears and distrust and their uncertainty. And 298 00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:21.830 he first started to do that with parents who were 299 00:15:21.889 --> 00:15:27.320 concerned about their children's autism diagnosis and they were searching 300 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:31.220 for answers. And he came at it with a very 301 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.960 easily wrapped up answer. It's the vaccines. They turned your 302 00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:38.419 child autistic and this is something for you to blame 303 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.250 and this is an explanation for you during a very 304 00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:46.769 challenging time. And I mean, we've seen that even the 305 00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:50.289 president of the United States seems to be a wholehearted 306 00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:54.470 adherent to that viewpoint and is signing executive orders from 307 00:15:54.509 --> 00:15:58.840 the Oval Office to that degree. But then during COVID, 308 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.000 when there was so much we didn't know and we 309 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:05.100 were learning on the fly. And of course, there were 310 00:16:05.139 --> 00:16:08.830 things that that physicians got wrong because we didn't have 311 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:12.669 all the information. But out of that uncertainty and the 312 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:15.889 distrust that a lot of people had comes in bad 313 00:16:16.009 --> 00:16:19.110 actors like RFK Jr. And they're there to fill in 314 00:16:19.129 --> 00:16:21.490 the gaps and to tell you there's some villain out 315 00:16:21.570 --> 00:16:26.049 there and don't believe authority. Just believe me. And now 316 00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:29.879 he is in the most powerful position for a health 317 00:16:29.909 --> 00:16:34.360 authority in this country. And I'm watching that video, doctor. 318 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.720 And I have to say, like, this is not the 319 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.899 person I would put out there as like a paragon 320 00:16:41.950 --> 00:16:47.350 of health. He's older, his voice is weak. If this 321 00:16:47.429 --> 00:16:52.590 is what eating non-processed food looks like and not getting 322 00:16:52.649 --> 00:16:55.529 vaccinated looks like, I would like an alternative because this 323 00:16:55.590 --> 00:16:58.649 is not like the guy that I'm looking at for 324 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:03.649 health advice. Can you talk with us about this propaganda 325 00:17:03.669 --> 00:17:07.259 that he's so good at You know, contrasting with this 326 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.559 image that he puts out there where, you know, I 327 00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:17.109 think anybody would kind of have this concern about following 328 00:17:17.130 --> 00:17:21.230 this guy's regimen, even if he can do shirtless pushups. 329 00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:24.740 Yeah, in blue jeans, in a hot tub. Yeah. 330 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.619 Yeah, I mean, his diet of sauerkraut. I mean, I 331 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.660 think we learned that from Rubio recently, right? He carries 332 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.880 around a cooler full of sauerkraut. Like, man, I don't 333 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:34.849 want to be on a plane next. 334 00:17:34.730 --> 00:17:35.230 To that guy. 335 00:17:35.349 --> 00:17:37.069 I know, his breath must be terrible. 336 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:40.970 I think of The Office when Oscar had salad sandwiches 337 00:17:41.029 --> 00:17:42.250 in that, if you guys are fans. 338 00:17:43.430 --> 00:17:44.029 Yeah, so. 339 00:17:44.710 --> 00:17:45.250 it's tough. 340 00:17:45.349 --> 00:17:47.430 I mean, I think Tim Wells tried the line, like 341 00:17:47.450 --> 00:17:49.809 these guys are just weird. And it, it obviously it 342 00:17:49.849 --> 00:17:53.029 didn't work in some ways, but it is, it is weird. 343 00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:53.910 I don't understand. 344 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:57.150 I can't explain why that like folks would choose. I mean, 345 00:17:57.170 --> 00:18:00.349 he was clearly chosen for this spot. He was promised 346 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:03.930 something when he peddled around his endorsement after he ended his, 347 00:18:04.130 --> 00:18:06.230 you know, as he was planning to end his presidential campaign, 348 00:18:06.589 --> 00:18:10.220 I've written about this, um, back in the summer of 2024, 349 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.420 reporting is that he peddled it to both sides. Like, hey, 350 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:16.589 who wants my endorsement? And their reporting is that the 351 00:18:16.609 --> 00:18:17.730 Kamala Harris campaign said, yeah. 352 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:20.009 We don't want it. We don't want to talk to you. 353 00:18:20.210 --> 00:18:23.289 And, you know, the Trump campaign took him on, obviously, 354 00:18:23.390 --> 00:18:26.869 and it would seem that. He promised him a cabinet spot. 355 00:18:27.589 --> 00:18:31.380 And really, it was about coalition management. You know, bringing 356 00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:34.440 the group of MAHA voters that were adherents to RFK Jr. 357 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.009 And all that he represented, into MAGA. 358 00:18:37.069 --> 00:18:39.029 Now you see now a year and a half, a 359 00:18:39.130 --> 00:18:43.650 couple of years on that, that divorce happening between MAHA 360 00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:47.480 and MAGA because of glyphosate, right? Because they're, they're, they 361 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.720 backtracked on, on pesticides and they're really not doing anything 362 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:52.720 to protect the food supply. 363 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:54.619 In fact, things are getting worse. 364 00:18:54.849 --> 00:19:00.690 And they're still peddling vaccine denialism and skepticism and disinformation 365 00:19:00.710 --> 00:19:04.779 and But if you look at the polling on Maha adherence, 366 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.160 vaccines are not their top issue. 367 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:08.569 They're near the bottom. 368 00:19:08.630 --> 00:19:11.630 I mean, they're not, you know, food and pesticides and 369 00:19:12.049 --> 00:19:13.170 affordable health care. 370 00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:15.529 Like these are what a lot of these folks are 371 00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:18.470 thinking about. We've talked about a lot on our podcast, 372 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:21.039 like Democrats have to pay attention because there's a lot 373 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.920 that the Democratic Party and a lot of leaders in 374 00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:27.359 the Democratic Party stand for, you know, like, you know, 375 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.539 protecting our food supply, like affordable health care. 376 00:19:29.980 --> 00:19:33.980 That folks in the Maha movement absolutely are with us on. 377 00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.400 And if there's a small percentage where the vaccine issue 378 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:39.839 is their key issue, yeah, we're not gonna be together 379 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:41.549 on that. And we'll try to keep putting out the 380 00:19:41.569 --> 00:19:44.609 right information and hopefully folks will make good choices to 381 00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:48.690 protect their kids and themselves. But yeah, I think really 382 00:19:48.769 --> 00:19:52.150 he came to the, administration. 383 00:19:52.089 --> 00:19:53.569 Purely for political reasons. 384 00:19:53.609 --> 00:19:55.430 Like, how do we get that group of people to 385 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:57.450 come in and vote and put them over the edge? And, 386 00:19:57.690 --> 00:20:00.230 you know, a lot of measures would say it worked. That's, 387 00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:03.990 you know, pretty slim margins in seven states that got 388 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.420 Trump elected. And Maha probably was a significant part of that. Yeah. 389 00:20:09.410 --> 00:20:11.650 It looks like he's going to, RFK is going to 390 00:20:11.690 --> 00:20:15.150 run for president or think about running for president as well. 391 00:20:15.230 --> 00:20:18.890 But I think that there's something here because we talk 392 00:20:18.930 --> 00:20:23.220 about his myths and disinfo a lot and the way 393 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:29.099 he spreads false facts and confusion and sows doubt and 394 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:31.200 all of these kinds of things. But there's another thing 395 00:20:31.339 --> 00:20:35.140 that's important to remember and that's he's just inept. He's 396 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.200 really bad at his job. And you can see that 397 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:43.059 he's a bad administrator. All he is is a soundbite. 398 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.259 And the soundbites are bad, right? They're confusing and all 399 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.240 of the things. And so we have, like we were 400 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.109 talking about the tofu that we can't eat anymore and 401 00:20:53.140 --> 00:20:56.430