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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. Jay Ruben Applman cracks open one of America's
Speaker 6: most notorious murder sprees while simultaneously banging the gavel on
Speaker 6: his own History with Violence, A definitely drafted true crime
Speaker 6: story with grit set amid the sprawl, decaying sprawl of
Speaker 6: Detroit and its outliers, with a forward by Catherine Broad,
Speaker 6: sister of victim Timothy King, four children were abducted and
Speaker 6: murdered outside of Detroit during the winters of nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: six and nineteen seventy seven. Their bodies eventually dumped in
Speaker 6: snow banks around the city. J Ruben Appleman was six
Speaker 6: years old at the time the murders began, and had
Speaker 6: evaded an abduction attempt during that same time period, fueling
Speaker 6: a lifelong obsession with what became known as the Oakland
Speaker 6: County child killings. Autopsies showed the victims to have been
Speaker 6: fed while in captivity, reportedly held with care, and yet
Speaker 6: with equal care, their bodies had allegedly been groomed post
Speaker 6: mortem scrub free of evidence that might link to a killer.
Speaker 6: There were few credible leads and equally few credible suspects.
Speaker 6: That's what the cops had passed down to the press,
Speaker 6: and that's what the city of Detroit and Ja Ruben
Speaker 6: Appleman had come to believe when the abductions mysteriously stopped.
Speaker 6: A task force operating on one of the largest manhunt
Speaker 6: budgets in history shut down without an arrest. Although no
Speaker 6: more murders occurred, Detroit and its environs remained haunted. The
Speaker 6: killer had presumably not been caught Eerily overlaid upon the
Speaker 6: author's own decades old history with violence, The kill Jar
Speaker 6: tells the gripping story of Jay Ruberman's Appleman's ten year
Speaker 6: investigation into buried leads, apparent police cover ups of evidence,
Speaker 6: con men, child pornography rings, and high level corruptions saturating
Speaker 6: Detroit's most notorious serial killer case. The book that were
Speaker 6: featuring this evening is The Killed Jar, Obsession, Descent and
Speaker 6: a Hunt for Detroit's most Notorious serial Killer, with my
Speaker 6: special guests, screenwriter and author and journalist Jay Ruben Appleman.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the pro and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: agreeing to this interview. Jay Ruben Appleman.
Speaker 5: Thank you brother. It's good to be with you.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. This is a very very very
Speaker 6: interesting book and very very deep in terms of all
Speaker 6: the insidious, like I said, and a web of as
Speaker 6: you mentioned, deceit and dissent and perversion, a very very
Speaker 6: horrifying and haunting tale. Let's get to that right now.
Speaker 6: Tell us why this is important to you. We of
Speaker 6: course mentioned it that you were abducted, there was an
Speaker 6: attemption attempted abduction on you, and you live in the
Speaker 6: same city in the same area. Again, tell us why
Speaker 6: this is important to you as a story and when
Speaker 6: you decided to become involved. Tell us just a little
Speaker 6: bit about your background and why this was important to
Speaker 6: you then and why was it important to you later
Speaker 6: on and able to enabling you to be able to
Speaker 6: write this book.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I was a
Speaker 5: kid in the seventies, seventy six and seventy seven. I was,
Speaker 5: you know, roughly seven years old. During the time of
Speaker 5: these murders. Four kids had been abducted, held in captivity,
Speaker 5: and dumped back out on the street after their murders.
Speaker 5: And at the time, the investigation in my area was
Speaker 5: was thick. It was it was the environs of these killings.
Speaker 5: We need like my hood, my particular little neighborhood and
Speaker 5: others like it, were saturated by sort of the nuances
Speaker 5: of these murders. It was. It was were There was
Speaker 5: talk of it everywhere you went. It was a part
Speaker 5: of our common vocabulary, in our common emotional sort of
Speaker 5: landscape and psychological landscape. And at the same time, when
Speaker 5: I was seven years old, somebody tried to abduct me.
Speaker 5: I was in a little shopping plaza in a what
Speaker 5: you would call a pharmacy I guess, like a right
Speaker 5: Egg Walgreens kind of place, although then it was called
Speaker 5: Century Drugs. And I was shoplifting candy, and I was just,
Speaker 5: you know, five blocks or so from my house, I
Speaker 5: crossed a major intersection. I went to this shopping center.
Speaker 5: I went into the store and I was trying to
Speaker 5: steal some candy and I stuck it down my pants.
Speaker 5: And as I was doing this, I looked to my
Speaker 5: right and down the aisle, maybe thirty feet was a
Speaker 5: man who saw me doing this. He was in his forties.
Speaker 5: He had every detail of him I remember very clearly.
Speaker 5: I've never forgotten it he but in brief he was
Speaker 5: a larger man wearing a blazer, and it looked like
Speaker 5: he was a security guard. Back then, security personnel wore
Speaker 5: official uniforms. They weren't so much undercover in shopping areas.
Speaker 5: And I thought, okay, well, I guess I better put
Speaker 5: this candy back and get the hell out of here.
Speaker 5: And I put the candy back. I left this store,
Speaker 5: and I crossed through the parking lot. I crossed back
Speaker 5: over this major intersection, maybe two rains each way of traffic,
Speaker 5: and I crossed into my little neighborhood. And this whole
Speaker 5: process of getting over there took maybe ten minutes or
Speaker 5: so and maybe a little lesson. And as I was
Speaker 5: in relative safety, this man pulled up in his small
Speaker 5: compact car. I was walking along the grass, the curb
Speaker 5: between the grass and the street, a little curb line
Speaker 5: and really close to where a car would drive. And
Speaker 5: he pulled up in his compact car, and he opened
Speaker 5: his passenger side door, and he reached out for me,
Speaker 5: told me in as he was reaching out. It was
Speaker 5: a quick sort of the speaking and the and the
Speaker 5: motioning on his part happened concurrently, and he reached over
Speaker 5: to try to grab me and stuffed me into his vehicle,
Speaker 5: and I took off. I left because I thought I
Speaker 5: was getting, uh, you know, busted for shoplifting. I know
Speaker 5: now that that's not what happens. I know now that
Speaker 5: security guards don't travel several blocks in their their personal
Speaker 5: vehicle and track down a child and trying to stuff
Speaker 5: them into their car because he almost stole some candy.
Speaker 5: At the time, at the time, I thought that's what
Speaker 5: had happened, and I didn't tell anybody because of that.
Speaker 5: I didn't tell my parents. Hey, this guy tried to
Speaker 5: tried to trunk me, as it's called if it were
Speaker 5: his trunk. But uh, and I kept this to myself
Speaker 5: looking back as an adult on these on these crimes,
Speaker 5: which was which was sort of my my interest was
Speaker 5: sort of prompted by this, this this feeling I had
Speaker 5: had over the years that that escalated into like obsessions
Speaker 5: sort of trying to figure out who this person was
Speaker 5: who had tried to snatch me, And looking back into that,
Speaker 5: I realized that there were similarities in the open KINI
Speaker 5: child killings had and the mL of this particular guy.
Speaker 5: These four kids had been snatched what we presume from
Speaker 5: very close to, if not right upon these live shopping centers.
Speaker 5: The car they were allegedly looking for was a compact car.
Speaker 5: They suspected that the man they were looking for may
Speaker 5: have been posing as a policeman or security guard or
Speaker 5: clergy something like that, because there was never any struggle
Speaker 5: witness from any of these kids, so nobody noticed they
Speaker 5: had disappeared. You know, all of the things seemed to fit,
Speaker 5: and now that didn't pan out to be true when
Speaker 5: I got into the investigation, But my investigation to the
Speaker 5: attempted abduction of myself led me to really obsess about
Speaker 5: these crimes, and the case just took over my life
Speaker 5: for about ten or twelve years. And throughout those years
Speaker 5: and with the publication of the book The kill Jar,
Speaker 5: my ultimate obligation has been to the family members of
Speaker 5: the victims. And that means, well, I did write a
Speaker 5: book and there's a TV show, and my interest was
Speaker 5: anchored by my own sort of moment of terror, so
Speaker 5: to speak. You know, I don't tend to play that
Speaker 5: up too much in the book. I don't tend to
Speaker 5: play up my experience too much with the almost abduction,
Speaker 5: because at the end of the day, mine was an
Speaker 5: almost subduction, and these these four kids were abducted and
Speaker 5: horribly abused and murdered, and I so that's what anchors
Speaker 5: me to the case. But I tend to focus on
Speaker 5: the book and in my thoughts on what happens after
Speaker 5: I get interested in the case, you.
Speaker 2: Know, right.
Speaker 6: Now about twenty ten, that's when you do become more
Speaker 6: interested again. We'll talk about that in a second. But
Speaker 6: let's get to the horror that was these child killings,
Speaker 6: the panic that ensued with this. Let's get right to
Speaker 6: the very first victim, Mark Stebbens, and this is February
Speaker 6: fifteenth to nineteenth, As you claim in the book, he
Speaker 6: was held captive. He was twelve years old. Tell us
Speaker 6: about Mark Stebbens and what are the circumstances, the circumstances
Speaker 6: in his abduction.
Speaker 5: So Mark Stebbins, you know, he was a twelve year
Speaker 5: old boy and disappeared on February fifteenth. He had been
Speaker 5: at a work party for his mother in Ferndale, Michigan,
Speaker 5: a very like a blue collar neighborhood outside of Detroit,
Speaker 5: a suburb of Detroit. And let me just preface all
Speaker 5: of this, would say that all of these kids were
Speaker 5: abducted from what we rightly call the suburbs of Detroit.
Speaker 5: But when you say suburbs, now you think mc mansions
Speaker 5: and all this business. You know, the three of these suburbs,
Speaker 5: three of these areas are very blue collar areas. Back then,
Speaker 5: you know it was a suburb. But you jump on
Speaker 5: the freeway and in five minutes you're in the city
Speaker 5: of Detroit. And I say that I preface that because
Speaker 5: Detroit comes into play later in this investigation in a
Speaker 5: very important way. But Mark Stevens February fifteenth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 5: I did a war party with his mother. He lived
Speaker 5: just a few blocks away. He decided that they want
Speaker 5: to go home and turn on television watch a movie,
Speaker 5: and he was allowed to do so because that's that's
Speaker 5: what people did at the time. You know, regardless of
Speaker 5: your age, you can walk wherever you wanted. And of
Speaker 5: course twelve, you know, is a relatively old old, old
Speaker 5: young boy. You know, he's almost a teenager, and of
Speaker 5: course he's going to walk alone to where he goes.
Speaker 5: But he left the American Legion. Yeah, he left the
Speaker 5: American Region Hall and he was never never seen again
Speaker 5: until the nineteenth when his body was so it's four
Speaker 5: days later his body was discovered. There are, oddly, there
Speaker 5: are conflicting reports whether or not he was discovered on
Speaker 5: a low brick wall behind a shopping a retail district,
Speaker 5: like a low rent retail district in Southfield, one city over,
Speaker 5: or or whether he was found in the snow. You know,
Speaker 5: when you google this case, man, this is one thing
Speaker 5: that becomes very important to When you google this case,
Speaker 5: you'll find all kinds of things. You'll find information saying
Speaker 5: that all four of these victims were found in the snow,
Speaker 5: placed on their back, their arms crossed, presented to the
Speaker 5: world as if gifted by the killer. Things of this nature,
Speaker 5: creepy thing like that. In reality, there's conflicting reporting from
Speaker 5: police documents, from witness statements and such. It's assumed that
Speaker 5: Mark Stebbens was placed on a wall at times. It's
Speaker 5: also assumed at times that Mark Stevens was leaning in
Speaker 5: the snow near this little wall. What we know, regardless
Speaker 5: of his placement, is within ten feet I can tell
Speaker 5: you I can walk out to that dump site and
Speaker 5: say this is more or less where Mark Stevens was found.
Speaker 5: And that's all that at this point really matters. What
Speaker 5: also matters is that the official narrative at the time
Speaker 5: was that Mark Stebbens had been bathed, he had been
Speaker 5: scrubbed clean, his clothing had been washed and pressed. There
Speaker 5: was no trades evidence, no evidence of any sort that
Speaker 5: would link us to any kind of killer. You know.
Speaker 5: The presentation of his body was such that it was,
Speaker 5: it was said, was such that a lone, maniacal serial
Speaker 5: killer must have been in charge of this situation, somebody
Speaker 5: who knew police work, somebody who meticulously took care not
Speaker 5: to leave evidence, somebody who then also placed the body
Speaker 5: in such a way as to taunt the police, begging
Speaker 5: them to try to find him, which they would never
Speaker 5: be able to do. This was the myth, This was
Speaker 5: the low and the police let that wor linger for
Speaker 5: various reasons. That we can speculate on. But when his
Speaker 5: body was found, the narrative was such that nothing had
Speaker 5: been left behind. That's not true, and I'll get into
Speaker 5: that briefly. I can tell you that there was blood evidence,
Speaker 5: there was semen evidence, there was salive evidence, there were fingerprints, hairs,
Speaker 5: all kinds of stuck men. So we didn't know this though,
Speaker 5: until years later. And I would say nobody really knew
Speaker 5: this outside of the police force until I and a
Speaker 5: handful of others started really digging into this case in
Speaker 5: about twenty ten. Like you say, the next victor, the
Speaker 5: next victim was Joe Robinson, also twelve years old, disappeared
Speaker 5: December twenty second in in uh a similar fashion. She
Speaker 5: was on her own, she her her well, we'll skip
Speaker 5: to the chase here. She disappeared the twenty second. She
Speaker 5: was found on the twenty sixth. She was found on
Speaker 5: the side of of a busy freeway, dumped into the
Speaker 5: snow with a shotgun blast to her head. If I
Speaker 5: back up a second, I remember to tell you that
Speaker 5: Mark Stevens was was murdered by asphyxiation. Joe Robinson, Yeah,
Speaker 5: Joe Robinson was on the on the outside. It appeared
Speaker 5: that she may have been murdered by this shotgun blast,
Speaker 5: but there was evidence to believe that she was also
Speaker 5: asphyxiated prior to that. There's a lot of questioning around
Speaker 5: this shotgun blaster to her face, and many believe and
Speaker 5: there is supporting allegorical evidence to believe that she was
Speaker 5: shot post mortem. She had or or close to post mortem.
Speaker 5: She was possibly asphyxiated, not to death, but to what
Speaker 5: the killer thought was death. Where she was dumped, the
Speaker 5: killer may have realized she was alive and shot her.
Speaker 5: She was shot though we know at the dump site
Speaker 5: based on blood, blood patterns and such, that was December
Speaker 5: twenty second, where she was missing.
Speaker 6: Ye was there was there a police immediately identify a
Speaker 6: link between those or was the shotgun blast misleading the.
Speaker 5: Shot the Shatgumla. Yes, the shotgun blast was misleading. We
Speaker 5: we know now that there is evidence linking all four
Speaker 5: of these victims. At the time, the shogum blast was
Speaker 5: definitely misleading. Did not know they were looking for a
Speaker 5: serial killer. They did not speak that way. At least
Speaker 5: one Less than a month later, January second, Christine Mahalik
Speaker 5: was ten years old, was taken under similar circumstances. She
Speaker 5: was held in captivity for nineteen days. She was not
Speaker 5: found until the twenty You know, she was not found
Speaker 5: until the twenty first of January. All sorts of Again,
Speaker 5: all sorts of evidence points to the fact in retrospect,
Speaker 5: when somebody goes back and looks at the files, points
Speaker 5: to the fact that this was a rated murder. At
Speaker 5: the time, they started to publicly allude to the fact
Speaker 5: that that the murders may have been related because of
Speaker 5: the proximity and dates, because of some of the similar
Speaker 5: mo o. Three months later, Timothy King, eleven year old boy,
Speaker 5: was taken after purchasing some items had a small strip
Speaker 5: mall pharmacy such as the one I had visited uh
Speaker 5: and he left and and they This is the only
Speaker 5: abduction that may have had a witness to the moments
Speaker 5: before it. A witness indicates that Timothy King was seen
Speaker 5: talking to a man next to a vehicle that was
Speaker 5: a blue Gremlin. This is a small compact car. It's
Speaker 5: blue with a white hockey stripe of paint up its side,
Speaker 5: and this man and the Gremlin are are famous in
Speaker 5: this case for having made it to a composite a
Speaker 5: poster wanted poster with a composite sketch of the man
Speaker 5: and an image of the blue gremlin. And this for
Speaker 5: all those in the Detroit area who remember this case
Speaker 5: from the seventies and eighties, this is what is remembered most,
Speaker 5: the picture of the man and the blue gremlin. It
Speaker 5: is said that both of the boys were sodomized with objects,
Speaker 5: although both boys had evidence left on their bodies that
Speaker 5: would indicate that they were sexually abused. Beyond just object objects.
Speaker 5: There was a new big hair found in Tooothy King's
Speaker 5: growing area, and there was that was not his, and
Speaker 5: there was of course seamen found on Mark Stevens, and
Speaker 5: you know, there's there. Their official line is that the
Speaker 5: girls were not sexually assaulted. Well, there is allegorical evidence
Speaker 5: as well as news reporting UH indicating that that's probably
Speaker 5: not true. There was a debate between the medical examiner
Speaker 5: UH and the corner that that had to be relooked
Speaker 5: at three different times. UH. This disagreement about whether or
Speaker 5: not one of the girls had been assaulted and sexually
Speaker 5: assaulted in and and in reality, UH, it's believed and
Speaker 5: I and I discussed in detail the UH, the the
Speaker 5: probability that whether they were physically sexually assaulted or not
Speaker 5: is not is not so much relevant as the things
Speaker 5: that tie them to a abuse of a sexual nature,
Speaker 5: regardless of whether or not they were physically violated. You know,
Speaker 5: you can you can commit criminal sexual conduct on child
Speaker 5: without actually you know, physically touching them. You can fallograph
Speaker 5: them naked, you can position them, you can of course
Speaker 5: abused them in many ways that are and so you know,
Speaker 5: there are a lot of investigators at the time who
Speaker 5: who alleged that possibly these crimes weren't even related. It
Speaker 5: was short sighted them, it was lacking uh a common
Speaker 5: common sense in that in that assumption. And and that's
Speaker 5: the four victims. And then the killings mysteriously stopped. Mark Stebbins,
Speaker 5: Jill Robinson, Christinahala, and Toothy King. We know were linked
Speaker 5: based on physical evidence that was left behind on their bodies,
Speaker 5: but we do not have UH subsequent killings with similar
Speaker 5: physical evidence or similar suspects. So we believed that these
Speaker 5: four were the only four uh in under the umbrella
Speaker 5: of the Oakland County child killings.
Speaker 6: Now you talked about that they had dubbed the press
Speaker 6: had dubbed the killer of the Oakland or these killings
Speaker 6: of the Oakland County child killings. But very restingly they
Speaker 6: the media, I guess, had named him. What was the
Speaker 6: name they gave him? And why?
Speaker 5: Well, the name they gave quote him, as you say,
Speaker 5: although as I discussed quite quite frequently in the book,
Speaker 5: I don't believe there's a singular killer in this instance,
Speaker 5: or at least or at least other people were complicit
Speaker 5: and knowing. But the name they originally gave quote him
Speaker 5: was the babysitter. Because of the continued narrative that these
Speaker 5: bodies were cleaned, they were scrubbed free of evidence or
Speaker 5: to breathe. Their clothing had been washed and pressed. The
Speaker 5: children had been fed while in captivity. So this indicated
Speaker 5: to the press and to the police initially that this
Speaker 5: was an unusual type of murderer. This was a person
Speaker 5: who cared for the kids, who who you know, coddled
Speaker 5: them in some ways for compared to the usual standards
Speaker 5: of known serial killers and such. But I say to
Speaker 5: you that you know, if you're holding somebody for nineteen
Speaker 5: days and you want to continue to abuse this person
Speaker 5: for nineteen days, well that person needs to be fed.
Speaker 5: If you are holding somebody for four days and you
Speaker 5: want to continue to use them in certain ways. It's
Speaker 5: very possible that they should be fed, you know, and
Speaker 5: so and so I think the press. It appears that
Speaker 5: the press made a lot out of a little because
Speaker 5: they were, you know, they were looking for headlines, and
Speaker 5: the police did not do much to dissuade them from
Speaker 5: these kinds of narratives. Now we will have to look
Speaker 5: at why the police didn't dissuade them from those narratives.
Speaker 5: The one thing that was of interest to police specifically,
Speaker 5: and this is I think when the babysitter lore really
Speaker 5: took over, was Timothy King's parents made public please uh
Speaker 5: to the killer, both on television and and in print
Speaker 5: to return uh Timothy to them. And Uh. One thing
Speaker 5: they said was, uh, We're We're waiting to bring you
Speaker 5: home and feed your your favorite dinner. Fried chicken is
Speaker 5: something they mentioned. And and and Timothy King was found
Speaker 5: with fried chicken and the contents of his stomach, uh,
Speaker 5: indicating to the police that that the killer had watched
Speaker 5: that broadcaster or read that article. I can't remember which,
Speaker 5: whether it was printer or TV at the moment, but
Speaker 5: but that article or news story had allegedly filtered through
Speaker 5: to the killer, and the killer seemed to care, you know,
Speaker 5: and and give healthy king fried chicken and that. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and that's and that's possibly true, man, you know, I
Speaker 5: mean maybe the killer did think well and as well
Speaker 5: give him fried chicken, you know. sEH. But but but yeah,
Speaker 5: but you know, the babysitter. We say the babysitter. But
Speaker 5: it's very clear that these kids were violated horribly, and
Speaker 5: and so the real narrative of the Oakland County child
Speaker 5: killer that became more prevalent. The babysitter is something that
Speaker 5: lingers in splashy headlines on old blogs or topic s
Speaker 5: threads and things like that, but it's not something that
Speaker 5: that very many people in the know really really refer
Speaker 5: to very much.
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Speaker 6: You write about how serious the police responses this, and
Speaker 6: the again the response from the public via the media,
Speaker 6: and so tell us how police proceed They have this sketch,
Speaker 6: and they have the Blue Gremlin, and they do talk,
Speaker 6: it seems in the press about being pretty confident. How
Speaker 6: do they proceed.
Speaker 5: Well? Interestingly enough, at the time, this was the in
Speaker 5: terms of resources allocated toward a contemporary murder investigation. This
Speaker 5: was at the time the most funded investigation in US history.
Speaker 5: There were something like three hundred investigators actively working this case.
Speaker 5: There were FBI personnel, There was county cops, there were
Speaker 5: city cops. I mean, there were people from across the
Speaker 5: board that flooded in. They established a task force, first
Speaker 5: in a little building, then in a bigger building, and
Speaker 5: they had an active, flown, buzzing hive of a task
Speaker 5: force investigating Allegedly thousands of tips. Something like twenty thousand
Speaker 5: tips were called in in the initial years of the investigation. However,
Speaker 5: two of those tips that were investigated, numbers three sixty
Speaker 5: nine to three seventy, were related to two prime suspects
Speaker 5: who continue to be the prime suspects. I'm going to
Speaker 5: back up and just tell you what happened with them initially,
Speaker 5: and then I'll talk more about them, and then I'll
Speaker 5: talk to you about how this investigation shut down. Initially,
Speaker 5: a Christopher Bush and a Gregory Green, two people who
Speaker 5: had been who were currently being charged with criminal sexual
Speaker 5: conduct charges throughout the state against minors throughout the state,
Speaker 5: had been called in as tips. They were believed to
Speaker 5: be by outsiders who had called them in to be
Speaker 5: associated with these killings. Somehow, Christopher Bush and Gregory Green
Speaker 5: were called in and questioned, these are people. I'll give
Speaker 5: you a little background. Gregory Green had come from California
Speaker 5: in the year prior after having served a short stint
Speaker 5: in a mental institution for a conviction of fifty counts
Speaker 5: of criminal sexual conduct against children. One of the children
Speaker 5: he had sexually assaulted, he had asphyxiated. He was not
Speaker 5: by putting his hand over the kid's mouth. He was
Speaker 5: not sure if the kid was alive or not. He
Speaker 5: burned him with a cigarette several times to see if
Speaker 5: he was alive. He still couldn't tell. He drove this
Speaker 5: boy to a hospital and dumped him on the grounds
Speaker 5: and then drove away. That's one of his victims. So
Speaker 5: remember Gregor Green sexually assaulted a boy he had just
Speaker 5: taken for assault. For assaulting to assault him, he had
Speaker 5: closed his mouth to the point where the kid passed out,
Speaker 5: and Gregor Green had dumped him off in public and
Speaker 5: taken off. He ends up doing a year in a
Speaker 5: mental ward and as a psych word and comes to
Speaker 5: Michigan where he meets up with Christopher Bush. Christopher Bush
Speaker 5: is the son of a wealthy General Motors executive at
Speaker 5: the time. And you have to remember General Motors or
Speaker 5: the auto industry in general, was at the center of
Speaker 5: wealth in our country, similar to the tech industry in
Speaker 5: Silicon Valley, or to the oil industry in Houston, something
Speaker 5: like that. The way we think of those areas, Detroit
Speaker 5: was one of those epicenters back then, if not the
Speaker 5: largest at the time in our country. UH. The millionaires
Speaker 5: of the time were would be now would probably be
Speaker 5: equivalent to the billionaires of our time today. And those
Speaker 5: in Detroit was an area full of these types of
Speaker 5: millionaires and certainly full of millions funneling through that economy
Speaker 5: based UH through the executive level of that economy. And
Speaker 5: Christopher Bush was the son of that executive level of economy. Right.
Speaker 5: And UH, Christopher Bush and Gregory Green had sexually assaulted
Speaker 5: UH dozens of children a little bit north of Detroit,
Speaker 5: UH in certain areas and had been called in as
Speaker 5: suspects in this case. They were they were brought in
Speaker 5: for questioning. It was they took polygraphs. It was said
Speaker 5: that they passed those polygraphs, and there was no more
Speaker 5: interest in them as Oakland County child killers suspects. Period,
Speaker 5: Christopher Bush, something like a year later, allegedly commits suicide,
Speaker 5: and very shortly after the suicide, and Gregory Green goes
Speaker 5: to prison for the criminal sexual conduct charges. Christ Bush
Speaker 5: never made it to prison, although I can also say
Speaker 5: that he wouldn't have he had he had been given
Speaker 5: probation on charges he had been currently facing for those
Speaker 5: same charges Gregory Green. Gregory Green, his compatriot, got life
Speaker 5: in prison. This gets a little complicated. I'll slow it
Speaker 5: down and just say that that Christopher Bush allegedly commits suicide,
Speaker 5: and very shortly after, this massive hive of a task
Speaker 5: force comprised of the FBI, the State beliefs, the county cops,
Speaker 5: and the city cops from places like Ferndale, Berkeley, Southfield, Livonna,
Speaker 5: and Detroit itself, all of this buzzing hive of activity
Speaker 5: of investigation shuts down, they pack up, and they move on.
Speaker 5: Very shortly after Christopher Bush allegedly commits suicide. Throughout the years,
Speaker 5: other suspects are looked at. They're tied to other criminal
Speaker 5: sexual conduct charges with children. They're tied to pornography syndicates,
Speaker 5: They're tied to all kinds of things. These suspects are
Speaker 5: looked at. Throughout the years, nobody is ever found to
Speaker 5: be allegedly ever found to be associated with the Open
Speaker 5: County child killings, but roughly around twenty ten, thousands of
Speaker 5: pages of FOYA documents are received through Barry King, the
Speaker 5: father of one of the suspect of one of the victims,
Speaker 5: Timothy King. Thousands and thousands of pages. And when I
Speaker 5: say pages, I mean crime scene narratives, autopsy reports, internal
Speaker 5: departmental narratives, evidence catalogs, all documentation from the case related
Speaker 5: to Christopher Bush specifically is received by very King. This
Speaker 5: this information, the stockpile of maybe about five thousand pages
Speaker 5: or so, becomes the focal point of my investigation after
Speaker 5: it's handed off to me from from Barry King. And
Speaker 5: I can say, without a doubt, without a shred of
Speaker 5: of of questioning about whether or not I know what
Speaker 5: I'm looking at or something that, without a doubt, Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush and Gregory Green Uh should have been looked at
Speaker 5: much much more thoroughly at the time, as well as
Speaker 5: other players related to what I alluded to it in
Speaker 5: a pornography syndicate and UH, and I believe at this time,
Speaker 5: under today's current prosecutorial standards, this case could be solved today. Uh.
Speaker 5: If not, if an end probably was already solved. That
Speaker 5: that that most of the information that would have led
Speaker 5: the police or the public or the press to focus
Speaker 5: on viable suspects was was buried or misdirected or shoved
Speaker 5: away or quote lost.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: There is evidence in the case that is quote lost,
Speaker 5: documentation in the case that is quote lost. And if
Speaker 5: you were dealing with a small town investigation who wasn't
Speaker 5: used to doing doing things by the book, this would
Speaker 5: be expected. But we are talking about the largest murder
Speaker 5: investigation in US history at the time, that had FBI involvement,
Speaker 5: state police involvement, multiple counties involved, and multiple cities involved.
Speaker 5: And some of the some of the key key evidence
Speaker 5: has allegedly been lost in some of the key documents
Speaker 5: are either lost or highly redacted when viewed, and so
Speaker 5: there's a lot to talk about. But I can say
Speaker 5: when your original question, probably ten minutes ago now was
Speaker 5: how did the police investigation? How did the police investigation proceed?
Speaker 5: And it proceeded as if the way you would expect
Speaker 5: three hundred people to proceed if they were not given
Speaker 5: adequate information. So I don't blame active police officers working
Speaker 5: this case at the time for what they didn't know.
Speaker 5: There are plenty of fantastic, fantastic cops working this case
Speaker 5: at the time and continue to. There's an officer named
Speaker 5: Jack Calbflash who who is retired right now, continues to
Speaker 5: work this case in his spare time. I met with
Speaker 5: Jack cal Flesh, and unfortunately it was discovered that I
Speaker 5: have documents from back in seventy six and seventy seven
Speaker 5: that he never saw, although he was an original task
Speaker 5: force member. So I have key evidence based documents sitting
Speaker 5: in my possession right that one of the lead investigators
Speaker 5: on this case never saw, although this the documentation existed
Speaker 5: before before he left the case. So you have the
Speaker 5: most highly regarded key figures in the case not being
Speaker 5: provided the information they needed to solve this case. And
Speaker 5: that's how this police investigation went. And the question remains, why.
Speaker 6: Tell us about let's get into this because there's some
Speaker 6: fantastic claims and you've done an incredible investigation into this.
Speaker 6: So let's talk about Christopher Bush's death. You say it
Speaker 6: was ruled a suicide and that just disbanded this task force.
Speaker 6: You discussed that suicide and you question that, So tell
Speaker 6: us about that. What's the question.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I'm glad you read the book,
Speaker 5: and I'm glad you know. It's nice to know that
Speaker 5: you actually read the book. And we discussed the investigation
Speaker 5: a little bit before we got on the horn together.
Speaker 5: And and so I feel confident saying, Okay, he knows
Speaker 5: it's you know, it's good that you know that you're
Speaker 5: picked in the right questions, is what I'm saying. And
Speaker 5: Christopher Bush, he is, you know, at his suicide scene.
Speaker 5: The police show up at the and he kills himself
Speaker 5: in his in his bedroom, his home bedroom. He's in
Speaker 5: his twenties, but he was in trouble. He was under investigation,
Speaker 5: so he's staying at home. He's got to meet with
Speaker 5: lawyers that his family's paying for and such. So he's
Speaker 5: living at home and his parents are in Europe, and
Speaker 5: he allegedly shoots himself in the head with a rifle.
Speaker 5: A Maige, a housekeeper, shows up. Can't get into the house,
Speaker 5: and here's the dog's barking. She says something suspicious. She
Speaker 5: thinks she doesn't know why she can't you know, she
Speaker 5: doesn't say, I mean if you show up and you
Speaker 5: can't get in a house. It's not necessarily suspicious, you
Speaker 5: just can't get into the house. But she calls, but
Speaker 5: she calls Christopher Bush's brother. The brother then calls the police.
Speaker 5: The brother doesn't say, I'll go over the house and
Speaker 5: see how everything's okay. He calls the police first, then
Speaker 5: drives over to the house and he meets the police
Speaker 5: at the house. They get into the house, they find
Speaker 5: Christopher Bush dead in the upstairs bedroom, on his bed.
Speaker 5: This is I say this, This is the narrative. What
Speaker 5: really happened. I'm not speaking to you. I'm telling you
Speaker 5: what the narrative is. The narrative is they go upstairs
Speaker 5: and they find Christopher Bush dead on his bedroom, in
Speaker 5: his bed. On the wall, tacked to the wall is
Speaker 5: in his bedroom is a pencil drawing of Mark Stebbins
Speaker 5: screaming in pain. Now it doesn't say Mark Stebbins screaming
Speaker 5: in pain, but it's a drawing of a boy wearing
Speaker 5: a hood who is spot on for Mark Stebbins. And
Speaker 5: Mark Stebbins was allegorically, anyway told said to have been
Speaker 5: found with his hood up. We have a we have
Speaker 5: a drawing of the first victim. We have ropes found
Speaker 5: in his closet, ligatures and not only is there no
Speaker 5: blood splatter UH around Christopher Bush, who is allegedly shot
Speaker 5: with his twenty two rifle by himself, I mean allegedly
Speaker 5: shot himself. There's no blood spare. All all finger all fingers,
Speaker 5: all body parts in proximity were tested for gunshot residue.
Speaker 5: There's no gunshot residue. There's no blood spatter. There's no
Speaker 5: gunshot residue. There's a photo, there's a drawing of Mark Stebbins.
Speaker 5: There are ligatures found in his room. Uh. Seemed to
Speaker 5: be set out the step, the photo, the drawing seems
Speaker 5: to be displayed. The ligatures seem to be displayed immediately.
Speaker 5: Mark Stebbins's death is I'm sorry. Immediately. Christopher Bush's death
Speaker 5: is labeled a suicide.
Speaker 1: UH.
Speaker 5: That same in the same moments, that same day, it's closed.
Speaker 5: His father comes back from Europe, the body is cremated,
Speaker 5: the gun allegedly used to kill him, to kill Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush is given back to the father is released to
Speaker 5: the father, and the father is written in IO you
Speaker 5: sas I will give this back to the police. At
Speaker 5: some time in the future. But they do not keep
Speaker 5: the gun. And you say to yourself, why does this matter.
Speaker 5: Why does this matter that that you know, police keep
Speaker 5: the gun of a suicide victim. Well, it matters because
Speaker 5: behind the scenes of this suicide victim, we say, behind
Speaker 5: the scenes, you look at the document now, which nobody had.
Speaker 5: Back then, Christopher Bush was actively being looked at as
Speaker 5: a suspect in the Oakan County child kinds. In fact,
Speaker 5: his partner, Gregory Green, had turned him in, as the
Speaker 5: killer had said during Green's interrogation, Christopher Bush killed the
Speaker 5: Stebbins boy. He said that to the police. Police let
Speaker 5: everybody go because they passed polygraphs allegedly. But the point is,
Speaker 5: very recently he had been actively looked at as a
Speaker 5: as a as a suspect in the killings of four children.
Speaker 5: And here is a gun, and here is a picture
Speaker 5: of one of the dead kids, and here are ligatures,
Speaker 5: and it was said that the boys were bound based
Speaker 5: on autopsy reports or corner reports. And they let this
Speaker 5: gun go. Why why do they do this for the
Speaker 5: same reasons they immediately allow it to be labeled a
Speaker 5: suicide for the same reasons the father is allowed to
Speaker 5: cremate the body before and he you know, for their
Speaker 5: UH investigation into possibly the DN like DNA. I mean,
Speaker 5: they didn't have much DNA stuff back then, but with
Speaker 5: the collection of hairs or such from from Christoper Bush.
Speaker 5: Christmap Bush was a main suspect. He killed himself. He's
Speaker 5: got evidence, at least circumstantial evidence indicating that maybe he
Speaker 5: was involved. There's the there's this image of Mark Stevens
Speaker 5: on his wall, and and basically the police turned their
Speaker 5: backs on this scene, which was no doubt a crime scene,
Speaker 5: whether it was a murder or or a suicide. It
Speaker 5: was a scene that should have been investigated further as
Speaker 5: a crime scene would have been investigated. It should have
Speaker 5: been handled with the utmost careac They were talking about
Speaker 5: a prime suspect in the killings of four children that
Speaker 5: hundreds of investigators have been dedicated to looking looking into.
Speaker 5: So it doesn't make sense. It defies all logic. This
Speaker 5: this suicide, and and the fact that it's labeled a
Speaker 5: suicide also defies logic. And that's just not me, that's
Speaker 5: that's any serious investigator looking at the UH the suicide report.
Speaker 5: In fact, I recently met with a lead uh, criminologists
Speaker 5: in Canada as part of this TV show that's being filmed,
Speaker 5: and and we went up to Western University in Ontario
Speaker 5: and met with this guy who has done his own
Speaker 5: analysis of this suicide scene. He concurred with everything that
Speaker 5: I say in the book, and so does Jack Calflish,
Speaker 5: and so does anybody who really touches this case with
Speaker 5: a serious eye. It's impossible to believe that this was
Speaker 5: just a suicide. It looks more like it was a murder.
Speaker 5: And then you have to say why, And that's a
Speaker 5: different part of the story.
Speaker 6: Absolutely you talk about and you fast forward back and forth,
Speaker 6: and now in twenty ten, you're looking and after that,
Speaker 6: you're looking at all of the documents and photos and
Speaker 6: all the incredible information that you have via Barry King.
Speaker 6: And you're looking at a photo and you see Timothy
Speaker 6: King and an art dealer and another person. And there's
Speaker 6: a news article later. Tell us what starts to unfold.
Speaker 6: It seems to point in a direction again, far far
Speaker 6: more insidious and horrifying than the story seems to have
Speaker 6: been so far. Tell us about that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what begins as the narrative of these killings is
Speaker 5: that they're serial killing by you know, either one or
Speaker 5: two people or something. You think, why, well, maybe for
Speaker 5: their own for their own personal advantage or sexual appetites
Speaker 5: or whatever. And even if you you know, the initial
Speaker 5: narrative is still at that time, back in seventy all
Speaker 5: the way through the eighties, all the way through the nineties,
Speaker 5: all the way to two thousand and you know, eight
Speaker 5: nine ten is you know, for three decades basically people
Speaker 5: are looking for one person. As I start to dig in,
Speaker 5: it looks like maybe there's people involved here, maybe there's
Speaker 5: two people. And then as I really dig in, and
Speaker 5: you mentioned this article because the article is the sort
Speaker 5: of redirect for me which wed me to uh, the
Speaker 5: Cast cord Or in Detroit. The Cast Corridor at the
Speaker 5: time was was a very impoverished area, one of the
Speaker 5: one of the most impoverished areas in our country, uh,
Speaker 5: teeming with with with prostitutes and and drugs and and
Speaker 5: and all the things that come with with areas that
Speaker 5: are socially and fiscally deprived. And and in that area
Speaker 5: there was there were several uh uh prolific uh child
Speaker 5: pornographer child child pornography consumers and distributors and pornographers and
Speaker 5: makers of it as well. And in that area, uh
Speaker 5: there are found to be a couple of people who
Speaker 5: uh it looks like have ties to the Christopher Bushes
Speaker 5: of the world, Christopher Bush specifically, as well as the
Speaker 5: people in suburban Detroit and those those uh uh pedophiles
Speaker 5: in in the interior of Detroit in this dark teeming
Speaker 5: sort of underground uh uh are you know are later
Speaker 5: found to have been prolific lasters as well, and several
Speaker 5: of them are in prison. Ted Lamborghin uh goes to
Speaker 5: prison for for uh child moles station uh a man
Speaker 5: named Richard Lawson who is later uh found to be
Speaker 5: uh previously and later found to be tied to many
Speaker 5: criminal sexual conduct uh events, but it's put away for
Speaker 5: a murder uh he he of a of a grown man.
Speaker 5: He is also a prolific child you know, pederist and
Speaker 5: and and then uh interestingly enough, in the heart of Detroit.
Speaker 5: Uh there appear to be links to this this most
Speaker 5: insidious uh part of the case in northern Michigan, in
Speaker 5: an area called North Fox Island, which is a small
Speaker 5: island off the western coast of uh Lake Michigan. In
Speaker 5: Lake Michigan, there was a man named Frank Sheldon who
Speaker 5: came from Detroit money.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: He was a millionaire at the time. UH. He was
Speaker 5: heir to to the gross Point mansion developers. He was
Speaker 5: heir to uh you know, the tycoon money of of
Speaker 5: uh of the richest areas of Detroit. And he owned
Speaker 5: this small island, uh several hours north and he ran
Speaker 5: a boys camp on this island which was set up
Speaker 5: to be to look like a camp for troubled youth.
Speaker 5: He would have these children on the island. He would
Speaker 5: receive federal and state sub subsidies for doing this charitable
Speaker 5: work of running a camp for for people to rehabilitate
Speaker 5: their sort of their troubled asked out of them. And
Speaker 5: but in reality this camp was run at as a
Speaker 5: molestation and pornography mill by Frank Sheldon and several of
Speaker 5: his partners in this one Dire Grossman and and uh
Speaker 5: Gerald Richards and a couple of other people. These people
Speaker 5: up in this northern part of Michigan took in boys
Speaker 5: to this place that was only reachable by airplane in
Speaker 5: the winter or or ferry in in in the summer.
Speaker 5: So once these children were on this island, they were
Speaker 5: trapped on this island with these older men who routinely
Speaker 5: molested then photographed them during these molestations, set up photo
Speaker 5: shoots as it were, and abused them for their own
Speaker 5: sexual appetites and reasons. But also uh uh pumped out
Speaker 5: that pornography into the greater world of child pornography consumers
Speaker 5: that that stretched back down to Detroit as well as
Speaker 5: to to the east. And this this, this uh was
Speaker 5: the beginning of of uh what later became readily seen
Speaker 5: as other pornography mills slash camps, slash uh you know,
Speaker 5: whatever you call it, people running things like church camps
Speaker 5: and such. But they were really for these purposes. And
Speaker 5: and we later discovered through FBI documents and such that
Speaker 5: that these the proliferation of this type of thing was
Speaker 5: was wide, which was which was scary to find out. However,
Speaker 5: when you mentioned that article, uh uh, it basically is
Speaker 5: the article. It's that that indicates to me that the possibility,
Speaker 5: just from a gut feeling, that that that something might
Speaker 5: have been off in our original look at the case,
Speaker 5: that that that what we called the isolated murders of
Speaker 5: these children were not so isolated that they were tied
Speaker 5: possibly to this larger port of Graphy syndicate, And after
Speaker 5: I started with that, after that gut feeling, I started
Speaker 5: looking in that direction for documents, and sure enough, plenty
Speaker 5: of the documents indicate that, specifically in Timothy King's instance,
Speaker 5: that there were Timothy King was likely alive and passed
Speaker 5: to other pedophiles at the time. We can also believe
Speaker 5: that based on evidence from from the clothing of the victims.
Speaker 5: Now on our most recent looks we have we have
Speaker 5: physical and allegorical evidence, but focus on the physical because
Speaker 5: that's what the police want and that's what they're evidence
Speaker 5: to show us that multiple people were involved in these crimes.
Speaker 5: Now we say, okay, we know this is true because
Speaker 5: we have multiple hairs from different parts but from different people.
Speaker 5: And I say, not just random people. Uh, there is
Speaker 5: a there is a known pedophile who is currently serving time,
Speaker 5: who's who who had hair evidence pulled from his vehicle
Speaker 5: that that is not his hair, though it was somebody
Speaker 5: he was rolling around with. That matches the bodies of
Speaker 5: two of the victims. We have the same carpet fibers
Speaker 5: on all of the victims. So we have and then
Speaker 5: we have and then we have hair from another person
Speaker 5: that matches one of the other victims, so we have
Speaker 5: we have multiple people with multiple hairs matching multiple bodies.
Speaker 5: Everything points the fact there were multiple people involved in
Speaker 5: these crimes. And these people also happened to be involved
Speaker 5: in those pet pedophile tentacles, so their child pornography tentacles.
Speaker 5: I mean to say that stretched back and forth between
Speaker 5: North Fox Island and the Detroit area, and it's very,
Speaker 5: very troubling once you can do it like that, but
Speaker 5: the evidence seems to point in that direction.
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Speaker 6: Jay Rubin, you've with your incredible investigation. You have, as
Speaker 6: you coined it, termed it the tentacles of.
Speaker 5: A far.
Speaker 6: More reaching and again, the only word I can almost
Speaker 6: say is evil organization featuring some people with money and connections.
Speaker 6: When I mentioned that article that got your mind reeling,
Speaker 6: there was a Birmingham police officer, a former head of
Speaker 6: General Motors Ed Cole, you said, and Timothy King at
Speaker 6: that time, and an art dealer. John McKinney again continuing
Speaker 6: with how deep this goes? And of course it wasn't
Speaker 6: just again like you say, isolated cases of a serial
Speaker 6: killer gone run amok, a far more organized thing. And
Speaker 6: we talked about Chris Bush's apparent murder rather than suicide.
Speaker 6: Continue with the links that you investigate and some of
Speaker 6: the other mysterious deaths that occur in connection to this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there you're specifically referring to had what appears to
Speaker 5: be a coincidence on first claims. You know, there's a
Speaker 5: it's it's it's an article that says it's basically like
Speaker 5: notable events of the year, you know, uh, and just
Speaker 5: a local article and pictures pictures Timothy King, Uh, Ed Cole,
Speaker 5: like you say, the former head of of uhled Cole's
Speaker 5: plane goes down and he dies in the plane wreck. McKinney,
Speaker 5: who you mentioned, who is an art dealer who dies
Speaker 5: in a mysterious murder and in Uh Renny Laylock, who
Speaker 5: uh is Birmingham's first police officer. These people are all
Speaker 5: just putting in a place in a line, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: as you see, as you'll find in the book, my
Speaker 5: hunt for Renny Laila turns out to be you know, Uh,
Speaker 5: I stopped hunting. She's alive. But but uh McKinney specifically,
Speaker 5: UH is somebody who I followed a little bit in
Speaker 5: the book. And and it turns out that that that
Speaker 5: McKinney has ties to the the uh Detroit underworld at
Speaker 5: that time. Again, McKinney also knew and was in close
Speaker 5: proximity to a couple of the victims. Uh. This came
Speaker 5: to me later in the investigation. But and I and
Speaker 5: I don't want to say too much about him right
Speaker 5: now because the living relatives of the area who who
Speaker 5: are not you know, and he has not been uh
Speaker 5: actively investigated charged with anything in the past. He was
Speaker 5: not a suspect. But his murder, I will say this,
Speaker 5: his murder, which remained unsolved, UH, is something that appeared
Speaker 5: to be uh related to the same underworld of the time.
Speaker 5: Uh he was involved in you know, uh sexual what
Speaker 5: would be considered sexual Devincy dedncs of the cast area.
Speaker 5: And and I won't and I don't want to say
Speaker 5: very much about that because, like I say, his his
Speaker 5: uh living family uh probably deserves the respect of me
Speaker 5: not talking too much about him, since he was not
Speaker 5: actively investigated by in my book. But but I want,
Speaker 5: but I want to say this, and I think this
Speaker 5: is the larger point that you're getting to. The the
Speaker 5: tentacles of this case uh reach wide widely, not just
Speaker 5: to Fox Island, not just to the Christopher bushes, but
Speaker 5: the world at the time. The world of Detroit at
Speaker 5: the time had like three layers. It had, but very
Speaker 5: intensely three layers. It had your middle layer of just
Speaker 5: common folk working their jobs. It had the upper layer
Speaker 5: of these executives uh uh profits profiteering, and and and
Speaker 5: and then it had this underbelly right that that is
Speaker 5: was was bigger and wider and thicker than the underbellies
Speaker 5: of the criminal organizations that you imagine of today. I mean,
Speaker 5: it was everywhere like mushrooms, how they spread underground to
Speaker 5: a field for miles. It was like that the roots
Speaker 5: were everywhere. You pull up one of these mushrooms, and
Speaker 5: if you could do so without tearing all the roots,
Speaker 5: you know, they'd all be connected, and you'd have this
Speaker 5: godlike hand uh uh with with a mass of mushroom
Speaker 5: roots miles long and uh hanging from it. And that's
Speaker 5: really what this case is. When you when you pull
Speaker 5: up on the Christopher Bush is in the Gregory greens,
Speaker 5: what trails behind is so many things, so many connections
Speaker 5: to what appears to be continuous abuse for years by
Speaker 5: pedophiles who were ignored. And what at the top though,
Speaker 5: the hand pulling up I would say in this metaphor
Speaker 5: that I'm just making up, so forgive me if it
Speaker 5: doesn't pan out. But the hand pulling up is something
Speaker 5: like is something like what we all imagine the political
Speaker 5: powers that be to look like this is the hand
Speaker 5: of of of the h Lee Bush's, which is Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush's father, which is the high money, politically entrenched hand.
Speaker 5: And that hand, the thing is that hand will do
Speaker 5: anything to not pull up on that root system. And
Speaker 5: that's really what happened with this case. And I don't
Speaker 5: want to spend a lot of time telling you about
Speaker 5: the twenty five different pieces, the mushrooms and the roots
Speaker 5: and whatever, but I can tell you without a doubt
Speaker 5: whether or not somebody was found guilty back then unofficially
Speaker 5: is irrelevant. This case was intentionally quashed. It cannot be otherwise.
Speaker 5: And you look at the documents, you look, there's so
Speaker 5: much information pointing to very very prime suspects. And the
Speaker 5: police will tell you and I and again, I love
Speaker 5: the police. I think they do fantastic work when they're
Speaker 5: allowed to do it. But when you look into the
Speaker 5: investigation of this key of this case, all the way
Speaker 5: back to the beginning seventy six, seventy seven, of the
Speaker 5: eight the eighties, you see all sorts of very substantive leads,
Speaker 5: substantive you know, leads that would be followed today with
Speaker 5: all the resources available to us, that were concealed from
Speaker 5: the public. They were concealed from the public, these leads,
Speaker 5: and not for the sake of maintaining the integrity of
Speaker 5: the investigation, which is the standard line that the police
Speaker 5: will tell you. They will say, and I say police,
Speaker 5: it's a broad term to say. The lead investigators, the prosecutors, whatever,
Speaker 5: they will tell you, we cannot talk about this because
Speaker 5: it compromises an open and active investigation. It's a line
Speaker 5: of crap. It's been forty years. They will tell you
Speaker 5: this stuff has been buried because it would compromise our investigation,
Speaker 5: our forty year old investigation that we allegedly have made
Speaker 5: no dents in. That's not true. They will tell you
Speaker 5: that because they're told to tell you that, and because
Speaker 5: some of them believe in that. Still, the reality is
Speaker 5: that this case was quashed to protect the identities of
Speaker 5: parties who were who were complicit in these crimes, because
Speaker 5: the identities of those parties in some instances lead back
Speaker 5: to the power structure, or lead back to the entrenched
Speaker 5: wealth of the family member of one of the victims,
Speaker 5: or lead back to you know, your Frank Sheldon's who
Speaker 5: this guy was. You know, we're talking about a guy
Speaker 5: on North Fox Island who who absconded from the United States,
Speaker 5: evaded investigation, and remained a millionaire living in in the Netherlands, UH,
Speaker 5: evading extradition for the rest of his life and no
Speaker 5: doubt molesting people in the Netherlands. This is a guy
Speaker 5: who was among the most powerful, the most elite of
Speaker 5: Detroit at the time, and Christopher Bush had connection to
Speaker 5: Frank Sheldon and all these players that were at the top.
Speaker 5: Runs skated UH from at least being labeled the Oaken
Speaker 5: County child killer, or at least at least being labeled
Speaker 5: and complicit to the killings. And I'm not saying Frank
Speaker 5: Sheldon was was was the Open County child killer. In fact,
Speaker 5: he was already he had already absconded at the time.
Speaker 5: He was not the Open County child killer by all,
Speaker 5: you know, practical looks, he could not be that person.
Speaker 5: But these but the but but when you pull up
Speaker 5: that root system, it exposes all of this other stuff,
Speaker 5: and at this time in Detroit's history, that stuff was
Speaker 5: not meant to be exposed, and so it was not
Speaker 5: told up.
Speaker 6: Tell us about this again. You talk about the root system,
Speaker 6: but just for an example, you go so far deep
Speaker 6: to the Boy Scouts of America. If you can get
Speaker 6: anything more sacred and then evil at the same time,
Speaker 6: here with with this revelation, tell us what you find
Speaker 6: again with this Boy Scouts of America and this connection
Speaker 6: to somebody was in the Boy Scouts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you know, just like with the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5: And I don't spend any time on the Catholic Church
Speaker 5: really in the book, because because it's it's a well known,
Speaker 5: well known already, and we're finding out more every day still.
Speaker 5: And and and also the Catholic Church, you know, it's
Speaker 5: not really a part of this story, but this particular story.
Speaker 5: But but but the Boy Scouts of America has this
Speaker 5: file called the Perversion Files that it's laid in it
Speaker 5: and basically it's the it's it's a it's it's a
Speaker 5: parallel to the to what we know about the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5: For for decades, UH children had reported uh their their
Speaker 5: abuses too at the hands of Scout leaders to the
Speaker 5: upper echelons of of of the Boy Scouts Corporation or
Speaker 5: however it's run, and and and those files were kept,
Speaker 5: but they were quashed. It's just like in just like
Speaker 5: in in the Catholic Church, Scout leaders were like quietly
Speaker 5: removed or they in some instances they were quietly repositioned
Speaker 5: to another troop, uh, you know, but taken away from
Speaker 5: that area if they wanted to be a Scout leader
Speaker 5: or something. And and but but the Perversion Files chronicle
Speaker 5: thousands of cases of molestation, not very widely talked about
Speaker 5: for some reason, but clearly very well known and known
Speaker 5: enough that you can just get online and and and
Speaker 5: Google the perversion files of the Boy Scouts, and you'll
Speaker 5: find information. And what I found when I started looking
Speaker 5: into the Boy Scouts UH through through association with one
Speaker 5: of the other characters you talked about previously, is Ed Cole.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to say Ed Cole had anything to
Speaker 5: do with anything UH. At this point, I don't identify
Speaker 5: him as as as a suspect. I identify his in
Speaker 5: some of the circumstances of his life as UH somewhat suspicious.
Speaker 5: But but I also identify that as possibly being a
Speaker 5: part of that larger rabbit hole that I mentioned falling down.
Speaker 5: Once you once you look into this case, you just
Speaker 5: your mind starts going haywire for a while, and you
Speaker 5: think is this is this is this is? This? Is
Speaker 5: this right? And but when I got to the Boy Scouts,
Speaker 5: I landed on something pretty serious to me, not just
Speaker 5: the perversion files, but that that one of the people
Speaker 5: named in the perversion files as as a perpetrator of
Speaker 5: these molestations was UH, a guy who who under a
Speaker 5: previous last name of mcconaday, had molested UH a bunch
Speaker 5: of kids and and was identified as a problem for
Speaker 5: the Boy Scouts. He later he later changed his name
Speaker 5: to Adam Starchild, which is very interesting. And Adam Starchild
Speaker 5: later became a financial counsel to Frank Sheldon during his
Speaker 5: time absconding from the US after the UH prior to
Speaker 5: being charged with crimes on on North Fox Island. So
Speaker 5: Adam Starchild, this is the thread you're refurniture. Adam Starchild
Speaker 5: was was named early on in the perversion files of
Speaker 5: the of the Boy Scouts and also owned a travel
Speaker 5: agency which which for young boys of it was basically
Speaker 5: like what a lot of people do nowadays in Eastern Europe,
Speaker 5: you know, travel agencies out are just are just uh
Speaker 5: shell companies to to traffic people. And yeah, and and
Speaker 5: Adam Starchild owned a h travel agency. He actually was
Speaker 5: a verified member of MENSA, A very intelligent guy, clearly,
Speaker 5: and he uh winds up in in cahoots with Frank Sheldon, uh,
Speaker 5: the the owner of North Fox Island, the pornographer and
Speaker 5: child monster scumbag who who relies on Adam Starchild for
Speaker 5: a very short time to figure out how to uh
Speaker 5: get money get his his personal wealth over to the
Speaker 5: Netherlands without without it being uh you know, taken by
Speaker 5: by the FEDS or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 5: And so Adam Starchild then also disappears. And and uh
Speaker 5: as recently as a little over a decade ago, was
Speaker 5: was living quite well writing books on how to evade taxes,
Speaker 5: how to he was living overseas writing books on how
Speaker 5: to invade taxes, how to uh set up uh double identities,
Speaker 5: how to uh become essentially somebody you're not and and
Speaker 5: and was selling these books legally online and and was
Speaker 5: associated with the press that was, uh like an underground
Speaker 5: illicit press that that that ran like you know, boy
Speaker 5: love type of articles and things like that. And you know,
Speaker 5: these are some sick, sick dirt bags. And the thing
Speaker 5: is that at the time they all knew each other
Speaker 5: because they had to know each other because uh there
Speaker 5: was no internet where they could like connect digitally and
Speaker 5: get what they needed and whatever. These people like had
Speaker 5: personal connections via telephone and personal interaction and uh by
Speaker 5: by you know, actually showing up and being pressent with
Speaker 5: each other. They knew each other intimately at the time
Speaker 5: because not until you did things back then. You know,
Speaker 5: it's interesting now and people want sick things, they just
Speaker 5: find it in anonymity. Online at the time, they had
Speaker 5: to reach out and put themselves out and they clearly
Speaker 5: want to do that with just everybody. So there was
Speaker 5: a syndicate of people like Adam Starchild. It makes sense
Speaker 5: that he knew Frank Sheldon and helped him. Now, Frank
Speaker 5: Sheldon actually later tried to tried to sue Adam Starchrow
Speaker 5: something like that from overseas because Starchild actually embeddled some
Speaker 5: of Frank Sheldon's money, which is a little note to
Speaker 5: this case, but it shows you the type of people
Speaker 5: who are dealing with And also Adam Starchild is is
Speaker 5: h is uh indicated as in relationship to the abscam
Speaker 5: scandal of when you're looking to that, which is also
Speaker 5: unrelated to this case. So I don't want to go
Speaker 5: on too many tangents, but but Adam Starsheld is a
Speaker 5: very interesting character and and it all starts for him
Speaker 5: as a scout leader, uh of truth whatever in Minnesota.
Speaker 5: I think it is, you know, molesting children and and
Speaker 5: you know, you don't look at Frank Sheldon without looking
Speaker 5: at Adam Starchild, just just like you don't look at
Speaker 5: Christopher bush out looking at Frank Sheldon, just like you
Speaker 5: don't look at uh uh uh Ted aberghin without looking
Speaker 5: at Christopher Bush. And Ted l Aberghan is a living uh
Speaker 5: incarcerated man right now who's doing time for child molestations
Speaker 5: that took place back in those days. And and you
Speaker 5: know he appears to have information about this case. There
Speaker 5: there are also other people on Art Sloan and Vince
Speaker 5: Gunnalds who appear to have information about this case. A
Speaker 5: DNA match from the bodies was made to Vince Gunnels,
Speaker 5: who was a victim himself of Christopher Bush. But but
Speaker 5: his DNA was on one of the bodies. MITO foundrial
Speaker 5: DNA match, so it's not nuclear, it's not as strong,
Speaker 5: but it's it's it's it's highly probable that it's that
Speaker 5: it's him or someone in his family, and his DNA
Speaker 5: was found in one of the bodies. And Art Sloan
Speaker 5: who is currently doing time from last stations. Vinceconalds is
Speaker 5: doing time but for drug related crimes. He has never
Speaker 5: been charged with any sexual misconduct, crimes or anything of
Speaker 5: the nature. Excuse me. Art Sloan is also doing time,
Speaker 5: excuse me. And all these people should be looked at
Speaker 5: their living and they have direct ties to this case.
Speaker 6: You talk about the police cover up in here, and
Speaker 6: again you've mentioned that there's powerful people here and there's
Speaker 6: motivation for people to I guess succumb to that influence.
Speaker 6: And but you are saying that there as much as
Speaker 6: these tentacles reach far and wide, that that you do
Speaker 6: mention a couple of police officers in here that again
Speaker 6: loosely or tied in with all of these people, you
Speaker 6: can't really make a connection that this was here are
Speaker 6: the orders and everyone's involved completely. It's a much bigger
Speaker 6: story of what likely happens all the time and what
Speaker 6: happened in this particular case. Yet, tell us a little
Speaker 6: bit more about the police connection in this.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm I'm not going to name any names that
Speaker 5: are right now, but I will say that there are
Speaker 5: there are some names in the book. I don't want
Speaker 5: to name them now on the air because out of
Speaker 5: context of the other information which I will likely leave out,
Speaker 5: if some of it will seem as if as if
Speaker 5: I mean something other than what I mean. I will
Speaker 5: say this though in the book everything is given context,
Speaker 5: so the name is brought out. There's much greater context
Speaker 5: around that name for for readers to understand. So that
Speaker 5: that's important to me because you know, I don't by
Speaker 5: any means name and a police officer passed or active,
Speaker 5: who I say, was, you know, uh, the Oakland County
Speaker 5: child killer for instance, or had participation in these crimes
Speaker 5: for instance. I will say this though in the book
Speaker 5: and and and here with you now, I do say
Speaker 5: that that there is information to that that leads one
Speaker 5: to believe and the one that approaches this case with
Speaker 5: a reasonable sense of things, in a reasonable outlook, that
Speaker 5: leads one to believe that certain police officers were complicit
Speaker 5: in covering up, or quashing or misdirecting uh people from
Speaker 5: the evidence. Uh. Now, it could be that they were
Speaker 5: told to you know, it could be that they were
Speaker 5: being political in their in their in in their actions.
Speaker 5: It could be that they were looking and taking care
Speaker 5: of themselves and looking after their retirement package. And it
Speaker 5: could be that, you know, there are many reasons. There
Speaker 5: are many reasons that police will not actively pursue something.
Speaker 5: And most of that is just like us at work.
Speaker 5: When you got a job and your boss does you
Speaker 5: to stay away from something, and you focus on that thing,
Speaker 5: You're going to lose your job. And and and in
Speaker 5: the case of police work, the stakes are much much higher.
Speaker 5: Obviously when you have an active investigation at the time
Speaker 5: anyway back in the seventies, in the eighties, Uh you know,
Speaker 5: I mean, these are real kids, These are real people
Speaker 5: who who were horribly murdered and real family members who
Speaker 5: are really dependent on uh, you know, not not having
Speaker 5: rumor and speculation filter through to the news and such.
Speaker 5: Completely understand the initial narrative of police who were doing
Speaker 5: a good a good job. And I'm not saying all
Speaker 5: of them were, I'm saying the ones who were. I
Speaker 5: understand that initial narrative of look, we can't talk about this,
Speaker 5: it's an active investigation. Completely understand that. I understand why
Speaker 5: they would do that socially, professionally, I understand all the
Speaker 5: reasons at this time forty years later that those reasons
Speaker 5: don't hold anymore. What's what's the endgame of you holding
Speaker 5: onto information or or quashing evidence, or misdirecting people. What's
Speaker 5: the end game one hundred years from now nobody remembers
Speaker 5: the case, because that's where that's going if you're allowed
Speaker 5: to do that. And that's why I wrote this book,
Speaker 5: and that's why other people look at this case. You
Speaker 5: don't get to say anymore that we're not allowed to
Speaker 5: tell you, but I will tell I will tell you specifically.
Speaker 5: It does look like at the time and throughout the years,
Speaker 5: people have continuously misdirected from from the fact that that
Speaker 5: there were very substantive leads. Can see that that would
Speaker 5: have led to an active prosecution had they not been
Speaker 5: concealed from even the cops. Some cops appear to have
Speaker 5: done some dirtier work when people questioned the case. It
Speaker 5: appears that those questioning the case were sort of bullied
Speaker 5: into submission. It appears not just that that outsiders to
Speaker 5: the case were bullied into submission, but it also appears
Speaker 5: that family members of the victims were bullied into submission.
Speaker 5: It appears, and I say it appears, but I also
Speaker 5: happened to know firsthand from stories from these people that
Speaker 5: that they were when they pressed on certain leads that
Speaker 5: we know now without a doubt were substantive leads that
Speaker 5: should have been looked at. They were told those leads
Speaker 5: don't exist. They were told I don't know what you're
Speaker 5: talking about. They were told, for instance, the Christopher Bush stuff.
Speaker 5: This stuff, I say it like it's common sense that
Speaker 5: their common knowledgy at this point. At this point, it
Speaker 5: is back in twenty ten. Some of it started filtering
Speaker 5: out back when I initially released in twenty fifteen an
Speaker 5: excerpt from my book, and I just laid it all
Speaker 5: out there. Since twenty fifteen, online, there's many versions of
Speaker 5: what I said about Christopher Bush and all these other people,
Speaker 5: because I let it out much before my book, because
Speaker 5: I was more interested in getting the information about the
Speaker 5: case out than I wasn't waiting for my book to
Speaker 5: get published so that people could read it. This wasn't
Speaker 5: about pub date, you know. This was about here's what happened,
Speaker 5: and I got out what I could in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 5: The point is the point is that the investigators on
Speaker 5: this case knew about so so knew so much information
Speaker 5: about some of these leads, and they consistently not didn't
Speaker 5: tell the lie about knowing to the family. So when
Speaker 5: the family members started to find out, they'd say, who
Speaker 5: is this Christopher Bush? And they say, this is not
Speaker 5: a lead. Christopher Bush is not a suspect, you know.
Speaker 5: They would say things like that. As it turns out,
Speaker 5: not only was he initially respect but he remained a suspect.
Speaker 5: It turns out that the polygraphs he allegedly failed, that
Speaker 5: he allegedly passed, he actually failed. It turns out that
Speaker 5: Gregory Green actually failed the polygraph that he allegedly passed.
Speaker 5: It turns out when there's this list, and there's this list,
Speaker 5: the list long as long as you know, as long
Speaker 5: as your kitchen counter, if you waid it all out,
Speaker 5: here's all the things that go wrong with this case.
Speaker 5: And it's not just Christopher Bush and Gregor Green. There's others.
Speaker 5: There are many people who who who were actively being
Speaker 5: looked at. And yet when the family members the victims
Speaker 5: said hey, I heard this thing that you're looking at
Speaker 5: so and so, they were told, no, we're not looking
Speaker 5: at that person. We see now in internal correspondence. Internal
Speaker 5: correspondence is obtained through foua demand that that there were
Speaker 5: letters written to say the King family when Barry King
Speaker 5: said I want to know about this, or when Kathy
Speaker 5: brought this is her last name now, but it was
Speaker 5: Timothy King's sister. When she says I want to know this,
Speaker 5: I want to know this, the police say this doesn't exist.
Speaker 5: We don't know what you're talking about. Here's a letter
Speaker 5: I can show you. Here's a letter that was written
Speaker 5: to the police by the prosecutors that says, we don't
Speaker 5: know anything about this and I'm sorry. That was written
Speaker 5: by the prosecutors to the king family that says we
Speaker 5: don't know anything about this, and yet here's alongside it.
Speaker 5: I can place a letter right on the ground, right
Speaker 5: next to it. That's that's from internal correspondences between police
Speaker 5: say they do know about it. So we have we
Speaker 5: have written chronicle, you know, lies from the from the prosecutors,
Speaker 5: prosecutorial entities anyway, to the king family saying we don't
Speaker 5: know what you're talking about and you're wrong. We have
Speaker 5: internal police documents indicating the exact opposite. The King family
Speaker 5: is right. But we have the official narrative not just
Speaker 5: being misdirected or quest but but but not being admitted
Speaker 5: to when called upon. Right, So we have we have
Speaker 5: family members of the victims. You know, a young boy
Speaker 5: was murdered forty years ago. His aging father, who is
Speaker 5: you know, in his eighties, wants to know what happened,
Speaker 5: and he says to the police, hey, I know about this,
Speaker 5: can you tell me more? And they say to we
Speaker 5: don't know what you're talking about what's going on there,
Speaker 5: what's happening in this situation that the victims' family members
Speaker 5: have become the enemy to the investigation. How has this happened?
Speaker 5: Is one of the leading questions of the book. Why
Speaker 5: has this happened? Yeah?
Speaker 6: You write in the book that there's a school led
Speaker 6: Rose in rural Switzerland, and you say it's the most
Speaker 6: expensive private school in the world, and students from seven
Speaker 6: to eighteen years of age. Winston Churchill attended the Shah
Speaker 6: of Iran, Prince Edward roth Child's, Rockefellers, the Gettys, and
Speaker 6: Chris Bush. What is the importance of that other than
Speaker 6: tell us, what would you think the importance is of
Speaker 6: something of that magnitude Chris Bush going to that school,
Speaker 6: rubbing elbows with some of these people.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it was so at the time. It was
Speaker 5: it wasn't just seventeen eighty year olds. I mean we're
Speaker 5: talking you know, twelve year old, thirty year old stuff
Speaker 5: like that. I mean, you know, young people. It was
Speaker 5: like one hundred thousand dollars a year. You know, I'm
Speaker 5: speaking in broad terms right now, but right now, I
Speaker 5: think if you look it up, it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty a year or something. You know,
Speaker 5: it's private school that costs over one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 5: a year to send your kid, you know, who's twelve
Speaker 5: years old to get an education, or fourteen or fifteen
Speaker 5: or whatever it is. And like you say, the descendants
Speaker 5: of the Rothchilds in the Churchills and the Shaws and
Speaker 5: the you know, the catch up money. You know, if
Speaker 5: they say, you know, people who come from our biggest
Speaker 5: industry and our rulers and kings and queens and whatever,
Speaker 5: the descendants of those people go to school there. And
Speaker 5: I mean it's an amazing school. It sounds fantastic. They
Speaker 5: go horseback riding, they go hunting, you know, all this
Speaker 5: stuff that you see in the movies that the rich do.
Speaker 5: The real rich, and that's what I'm talking about. There's
Speaker 5: a level of wealth that we see every day. Oh
Speaker 5: that guy's driving a fancy beamer. It's you know, it's
Speaker 5: not the forty thousand dollars BMW, it's one hundred thousand
Speaker 5: dollars BMW. That's not what we're talking about. When we
Speaker 5: say Christopher Bush was wealthy, Well, that's not what we're
Speaker 5: talking about at all. People think rich. Now there's like
Speaker 5: what a million millionaires in America? Rich mean or nothing
Speaker 5: to people now. I'm sure they want to be rich,
Speaker 5: but they don't quite understand the wealth that kings and
Speaker 5: queens and descendants of the Rockefellers and the Walmart franchise enterprise.
Speaker 5: I mean these people, the wealth these people have is
Speaker 5: as we're seeing now in our political system. I won't
Speaker 5: get off on a large tangent, but we know, oh
Speaker 5: that billionaires get away with big, big, big, big crimes.
Speaker 5: And Christopher Bush, although his family was not valued in
Speaker 5: the billions at the time, because billionaire at the time
Speaker 5: was mostly unheard of. I mean, we had millionaires.
Speaker 6: But.
Speaker 5: A couple hundred million back then was clearly what billions
Speaker 5: are now, and at least in buying power. And but regardless,
Speaker 5: Christopher Bush was of that ilk. Christopher Bush was not
Speaker 5: just some guy who had a rich, rich family. And
Speaker 5: it's not about the money really, it's about the power
Speaker 5: and the access. You could look back at h Le
Speaker 5: Bush's wealth and say, you know, Appleman doesn't always talking
Speaker 5: about h Le was only valued at a million dollars
Speaker 5: or something. That's not the point. The point is Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush spent cool days with the children of the most
Speaker 5: powerful people in the world. In the world, we're not
Speaker 5: talking about the rich elite of Detroit. We're talking about
Speaker 5: the freaking shaw of Iran man, you know, like we're
Speaker 5: talking about about the largest political, you know, political power
Speaker 5: base in the world. Was who Christopher Bush mingled with.
Speaker 5: And so it's important to say how you know, it
Speaker 5: doesn't make sense he wouldn't get away with this, and
Speaker 5: I say, of course he would. Now I'm not saying
Speaker 5: to you Christopher Bush. I'm not gonna say this right
Speaker 5: now for the sake of this conversation. Christopher Bush was
Speaker 5: the Open County shodowkiller. I'm not saying that. But I'm
Speaker 5: saying is that Christopher Bush was never brought to task,
Speaker 5: was never tried, was never h was never indicted, was
Speaker 5: never all of the things that because of the power
Speaker 5: and access that he enjoyed through his family. If Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush today or and I'm not just focusing on Christopher
Speaker 5: Bush here, I'm going to talk about other things too,
Speaker 5: But if Christopher Bush specifically today were brought We're an
Speaker 5: African American man, uh, he would be indicted in America.
Speaker 5: I'm ten percent of what they already had on Christopher Bush.
Speaker 5: If you throw an African American poor man into court
Speaker 5: looking at multiple murders based on, you know, just anything
Speaker 5: that Christopher Bush had against him, that guy would probably
Speaker 5: go to prison. And that's an unfortunate statement about our
Speaker 5: criminal justice system. But the fact is Christopher Bush was
Speaker 5: looked at the way the elites are always looked at,
Speaker 5: the extreme elite. I'm not talking about people who are rich,
Speaker 5: I'm talking about the political elite, and he was looked
Speaker 5: at it that. Now you could say, well, what about
Speaker 5: the other people that you say are involved in this case.
Speaker 5: I say to you that the other people were not
Speaker 5: looked at as well because they all led back to
Speaker 5: the politically entrenched. So you cannot say investigate. You know,
Speaker 5: if somebody is tied to Frank Sheldon, you know, a
Speaker 5: millionaire quote philanthropists who serially in the less children. If
Speaker 5: somebody is tied to that person, you cannot investigate that
Speaker 5: that that that tie because it leads back to Frank Sheldon.
Speaker 5: So let's say Frank Sheldon's associate was not just molesting
Speaker 5: children at that camp, but was murdering them at that camp. Well,
Speaker 5: you're not going to investigate Frank Sheldon's not going to
Speaker 5: let you investigate that guy for these murders at his camp.
Speaker 5: You can't let that happen because it leads back to him,
Speaker 5: right because his camp. So there's these associations that it's
Speaker 5: like that root system. When you pull up on a
Speaker 5: part of that route, the whole thing comes with it.
Speaker 5: And there are many reasons that this case was looked at.
Speaker 5: Some of it is because good cops themselves got shafted.
Speaker 5: Good cops themselves were prevented from doing, uh, the investigative
Speaker 5: work that they needed to do. But the other reason,
Speaker 5: every time you look at it, it has to be
Speaker 5: that the that the there's there's political powers at me
Speaker 5: at the time, and there were other people as well.
Speaker 5: You know, the prosecutor at the time made critical errors.
Speaker 5: You go, you know, you go. Ruthy King was not
Speaker 5: yet killed when Christopher Bush was in custody for these
Speaker 5: csc charges. Christopher Bush was let out. Toothy King was
Speaker 5: later killed. You know, you have to wonder what the
Speaker 5: prosecutor at that time was thinking. How did they let
Speaker 5: this guy out? You know, was their political motivation for
Speaker 5: him to quash evidence, to misdirect there's all kinds of
Speaker 5: stuff in this case, and and and what I can
Speaker 5: tell you without a doubt if you put me on
Speaker 5: the stand and say, here's the only chance you get
Speaker 5: say who did it? I can't necessarily do that, but
Speaker 5: I can tell you this. I can tell you this.
Speaker 5: Here's the million things nobody looked at and and and
Speaker 5: it's not up to me. It's not up to me
Speaker 5: as a non official investigator and author a journalist looking
Speaker 5: into your case to try your case. It's up to you.
Speaker 5: And they haven't tried their case. So they say to me,
Speaker 5: you don't have all the information. I say to them,
Speaker 5: I say to them, I don't have all the information.
Speaker 5: Give it to me, right. So I can tell you
Speaker 5: all the things man, that lead one to speculate that
Speaker 5: this thing was just a dirty mess on purpose. But
Speaker 5: I depend on the police force to tell me where
Speaker 5: I've gone wrong, and they won't. I depend on the
Speaker 5: police force to tell me where I've gone right, got
Speaker 5: it right, and they won't. The police force remains quiet
Speaker 5: and probably always will until people like me and then
Speaker 5: person who comes along next, and the person who comes
Speaker 5: along the next continue to call them out on it.
Speaker 5: And that's what this case really needs at this point.
Speaker 5: I think this case, at this point needs an outside
Speaker 5: and an investigator. You know, look, I'm not a policeman.
Speaker 5: I respect policemen for the work they do, and I
Speaker 5: know it's difficult and you don't become one overnight. And
Speaker 5: I don't say that at any time that that I carry
Speaker 5: with me a twenty year background in homicide investigation. But
Speaker 5: it's clear there is day to me, everywhere this case
Speaker 5: went wrong and everybody who should have been looked at,
Speaker 5: and all the lies that were told, and all the
Speaker 5: suspects who were let go when all the evidence pointed
Speaker 5: to them. I mean due, there are reams and reams
Speaker 5: of evidence in this case and we were told there
Speaker 5: was nothing. So this time, I say, and outside investigative
Speaker 5: body needs to come into this case, take it over
Speaker 5: with nobody who used to be on this case involved
Speaker 5: in it, and they'll probably solve this strict and think
Speaker 5: of a year. I mean it's clear as day. All
Speaker 5: you need is tops outside of the system of of
Speaker 5: of of what they've got at this point. And I
Speaker 5: say cops, I just mean policing entities, prosecutorial entities, et cetera.
Speaker 5: This there needs to be an outside investigative body come
Speaker 5: in and take over this case, and all the information
Speaker 5: is there. I can look at this case right now
Speaker 5: and tell you who would go to jail, but I
Speaker 5: can't for this case. But I can't do that legally
Speaker 5: because they haven't had their day in court, right So
Speaker 5: that's the that's the problem. I can tell you. I
Speaker 5: can tell you exactly what happened in eighty percent of
Speaker 5: this case. There's there's some holes. There's some holes because
Speaker 5: the police haven't provided the information. And for instance, I
Speaker 5: have information like like polygraph results, and they say, here's
Speaker 5: the results of the polygraph and answer to the question this,
Speaker 5: this person answered that, and it's all blacked out. So
Speaker 5: they say gave, They gave the they gave the FOIA
Speaker 5: documents over, but in key moments they redact, key key instances.
Speaker 5: They redacted the evidence, which is just a complete shoke.
Speaker 5: But they sometimes forgot, man, this is this is where
Speaker 5: human interaction comes into player, or human human error comes
Speaker 5: into play. They sometimes forgot they redacted names. But if
Speaker 5: you scrub those if you really look through those documents,
Speaker 5: I mean, and you know, you eyeb all this stuff
Speaker 5: for hours and days and weeks and months, and in
Speaker 5: some of these years, suddenly you're like, wait a minute,
Speaker 5: I can't believe I skim this paragraph the first time
Speaker 5: because I thought it was something else. And there's the
Speaker 5: name they forgot to redact because it's buried in there.
Speaker 5: There's the name, and there's the name that they reacted
Speaker 5: in forty five other instances. But here is now and
Speaker 5: now I know that's the name that they reacted. So like,
Speaker 5: you have to dig and dig and dig, but but
Speaker 5: it all makes sense. And on some instances, I would
Speaker 5: google information that was redacted, but there were enough phrases
Speaker 5: that I could start to like based on that phrase,
Speaker 5: dig deep and deep. So I'm digging through phrases that
Speaker 5: have been half redacted. But eventually, if you dig hard enough,
Speaker 5: you find. Oh. But the thing is why you're redacted.
Speaker 5: You ask for the information, they do not give it
Speaker 5: to you until they're forced to, almost by gunpoint, and
Speaker 5: then they give it to you, and then they don't
Speaker 5: apologize for lying to you for twenty years. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's so many instances I can tell you that I
Speaker 5: know we're off topic here, but so many instances where
Speaker 5: the family members of the victims have been led astray,
Speaker 5: have been stone walled, have been just one lied to you?
Speaker 5: And you say, I mean, answer that question, answer the question,
Speaker 5: why why lie to the family members of the victims
Speaker 5: forty years down the road at the very least, how
Speaker 5: about bring them in, make them sign an NDA since
Speaker 5: they already told you what they know, and then discuss
Speaker 5: the thing that they just told you. You know, do
Speaker 5: do it, you know, at at at risk of uh,
Speaker 5: you know, jail time or something for violating that NDA.
Speaker 5: You know, I don't know. I don't know what police
Speaker 5: can do or can't do, but it seems to make
Speaker 5: sense if a family member says to you, I know
Speaker 5: what happened here, I know you with this suspect. In fact,
Speaker 5: they even read the documents. If you say to them, oh,
Speaker 5: I don't know what you're talking about, then then clearly, clearly, uh,
Speaker 5: there's other other dealings that play there and make to
Speaker 5: you who you say that to them? You know, you
Speaker 5: do not need to lie to to victims of murders
Speaker 5: and promiside or and molestations and abductions. I mean, that's
Speaker 5: basically what they are. They're murdered. They're a victim by
Speaker 5: by circumstances. I mean, it didn't happen to them, but
Speaker 5: you know, you're talking about somebody's father, or somebody's sister
Speaker 5: or somebody you know, can't A Broad gave her brother
Speaker 5: thirty cents to go buy a candy. That was the
Speaker 5: last time she ever saw him. A lie. Are you're
Speaker 5: gonna lie to her forty years later? You're gonna lie
Speaker 5: to her and say, no, Christopher Bush was never a suspect.
Speaker 5: You're gonna lie to her and say we don't know
Speaker 5: anything about Fox Island. You're gonna lie to her and say,
Speaker 5: I don't know Lamborghine doesn't look like a suspect. You're
Speaker 5: gonna lie to her like you're just gonna lie and
Speaker 5: lie in line, and all the documents seemed to provide
Speaker 5: the exact opposite information. Troubling Man.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well you've done a great service with this. I'm
Speaker 6: disposing this story, basically laying it out, and you've come
Speaker 6: up with the kill jar obsession, descent, and the hunt
Speaker 6: for Detroit's most notorious serial killer. And it's very interesting.
Speaker 6: Catherine Broad, as you mentioned, sister of Timothy King, cooperates
Speaker 6: incredibly and does the forward for this book. And then
Speaker 6: Barry King to incredible interaction that you have and your
Speaker 6: own journey that we just lu the two in the
Speaker 6: in the beginning. It's a very very involved book. It's
Speaker 6: a fantastic book. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Jay Rubin Appleman for coming on and talking about it.
Speaker 6: For those of people might want to take a look.
Speaker 6: Do you have a website Facebook page for this? Tell
Speaker 6: us about that?
Speaker 5: Well, you can just go to my website's Jerubin Appleman
Speaker 5: dot com. You have to spell it right, but if
Speaker 5: you google it a few ways you'll find out how
Speaker 5: to spell it. Or you can just go to you
Speaker 5: can google Appleman the kill Jar book. There's some other
Speaker 5: thing called The Killing Jar that's not it. You can
Speaker 5: go to Simon and Schuster's page the kill for the
Speaker 5: Killed Jar Simon Schuster website. You can go to Amazon,
Speaker 5: Barnes and Noble. It's in bookstores right now. You can
Speaker 5: just walk into your Barnes and Noble, especially in the
Speaker 5: mission areas. It's saturated with the book right now. And
Speaker 5: there's also a TV show coming up to sometime in
Speaker 5: the end of winter that is not called that. I'm
Speaker 5: not allowed to talk about the name or anything like that,
Speaker 5: but it will be out soon as well. And the
Speaker 5: book's also an audio, so if you're not a reader,
Speaker 5: you can just look for the audio.
Speaker 6: That's great. I want to thank you very much, Reuben Appleman.
Speaker 6: Do you have a great evening. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Man, thank you so much. Thank you so much
Speaker 5: for covering this. I appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Thank you, good night, Yes, sir,