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That's Chumbuck 48 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:00.280 casino dot Com. 49 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.319 The overtimary day. By lossing your regnitions eighteen plus. 50 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.879 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 51 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.000 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:26.360 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 53 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:30.080 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.719 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 55 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.639 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 56 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.680 Good Evening. Jay Ruben Applman cracks open one of America's 57 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:56.479 most notorious murder sprees while simultaneously banging the gavel on 58 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:00.879 his own History with Violence, A definitely drafted true crime 59 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:06.120 story with grit set amid the sprawl, decaying sprawl of 60 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.759 Detroit and its outliers, with a forward by Catherine Broad, 61 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:14.120 sister of victim Timothy King, four children were abducted and 62 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:17.520 murdered outside of Detroit during the winters of nineteen seventy 63 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.879 six and nineteen seventy seven. Their bodies eventually dumped in 64 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.159 snow banks around the city. J Ruben Appleman was six 65 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.120 years old at the time the murders began, and had 66 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.280 evaded an abduction attempt during that same time period, fueling 67 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.919 a lifelong obsession with what became known as the Oakland 68 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.919 County child killings. Autopsies showed the victims to have been 69 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:45.120 fed while in captivity, reportedly held with care, and yet 70 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.680 with equal care, their bodies had allegedly been groomed post 71 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:52.840 mortem scrub free of evidence that might link to a killer. 72 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.319 There were few credible leads and equally few credible suspects. 73 00:03:57.759 --> 00:03:59.800 That's what the cops had passed down to the press, 74 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.719 and that's what the city of Detroit and Ja Ruben 75 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.759 Appleman had come to believe when the abductions mysteriously stopped. 76 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:11.120 A task force operating on one of the largest manhunt 77 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:15.280 budgets in history shut down without an arrest. Although no 78 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.720 more murders occurred, Detroit and its environs remained haunted. The 79 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.600 killer had presumably not been caught Eerily overlaid upon the 80 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:28.959 author's own decades old history with violence, The kill Jar 81 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.759 tells the gripping story of Jay Ruberman's Appleman's ten year 82 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:37.319 investigation into buried leads, apparent police cover ups of evidence, 83 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:42.399 con men, child pornography rings, and high level corruptions saturating 84 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:46.600 Detroit's most notorious serial killer case. The book that were 85 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.160 featuring this evening is The Killed Jar, Obsession, Descent and 86 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.560 a Hunt for Detroit's most Notorious serial Killer, with my 87 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.920 special guests, screenwriter and author and journalist Jay Ruben Appleman. 88 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:01.800 Welcome to the pro and thank you very much for 89 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.079 agreeing to this interview. Jay Ruben Appleman. 90 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:08.639 Thank you brother. It's good to be with you. 91 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.199 Thank you very much. This is a very very very 92 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:17.360 interesting book and very very deep in terms of all 93 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:23.199 the insidious, like I said, and a web of as 94 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:29.879 you mentioned, deceit and dissent and perversion, a very very 95 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:35.439 horrifying and haunting tale. Let's get to that right now. 96 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.959 Tell us why this is important to you. We of 97 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:45.959 course mentioned it that you were abducted, there was an 98 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.759 attemption attempted abduction on you, and you live in the 99 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.279 same city in the same area. Again, tell us why 100 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.199 this is important to you as a story and when 101 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.319 you decided to become involved. Tell us just a little 102 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:05.759 bit about your background and why this was important to 103 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.759 you then and why was it important to you later 104 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.360 on and able to enabling you to be able to 105 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:14.000 write this book. 106 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.480 Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I was a 107 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.480 kid in the seventies, seventy six and seventy seven. I was, 108 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:26.319 you know, roughly seven years old. During the time of 109 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.399 these murders. Four kids had been abducted, held in captivity, 110 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.600 and dumped back out on the street after their murders. 111 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.439 And at the time, the investigation in my area was 112 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:43.800 was thick. It was it was the environs of these killings. 113 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.600 We need like my hood, my particular little neighborhood and 114 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.120 others like it, were saturated by sort of the nuances 115 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.560 of these murders. It was. It was were There was 116 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.040 talk of it everywhere you went. It was a part 117 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:02.639 of our common vocabulary, in our common emotional sort of 118 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:07.319 landscape and psychological landscape. And at the same time, when 119 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:09.800 I was seven years old, somebody tried to abduct me. 120 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:13.680 I was in a little shopping plaza in a what 121 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:16.199 you would call a pharmacy I guess, like a right 122 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.240 Egg Walgreens kind of place, although then it was called 123 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.360 Century Drugs. And I was shoplifting candy, and I was just, 124 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:26.759 you know, five blocks or so from my house, I 125 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:30.040 crossed a major intersection. I went to this shopping center. 126 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.959 I went into the store and I was trying to 127 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.519 steal some candy and I stuck it down my pants. 128 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.160 And as I was doing this, I looked to my 129 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.759 right and down the aisle, maybe thirty feet was a 130 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.839 man who saw me doing this. He was in his forties. 131 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:52.800 He had every detail of him I remember very clearly. 132 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:57.319 I've never forgotten it he but in brief he was 133 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.160 a larger man wearing a blazer, and it looked like 134 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:05.720 he was a security guard. Back then, security personnel wore 135 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:10.040 official uniforms. They weren't so much undercover in shopping areas. 136 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:13.519 And I thought, okay, well, I guess I better put 137 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:15.079 this candy back and get the hell out of here. 138 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:18.199 And I put the candy back. I left this store, 139 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.120 and I crossed through the parking lot. I crossed back 140 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:25.639 over this major intersection, maybe two rains each way of traffic, 141 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:30.040 and I crossed into my little neighborhood. And this whole 142 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.559 process of getting over there took maybe ten minutes or 143 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:36.320 so and maybe a little lesson. And as I was 144 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:42.679 in relative safety, this man pulled up in his small 145 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.960 compact car. I was walking along the grass, the curb 146 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.519 between the grass and the street, a little curb line 147 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.480 and really close to where a car would drive. And 148 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.200 he pulled up in his compact car, and he opened 149 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.000 his passenger side door, and he reached out for me, 150 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:01.679 told me in as he was reaching out. It was 151 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.159 a quick sort of the speaking and the and the 152 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.679 motioning on his part happened concurrently, and he reached over 153 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:12.440 to try to grab me and stuffed me into his vehicle, 154 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.600 and I took off. I left because I thought I 155 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.720 was getting, uh, you know, busted for shoplifting. I know 156 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:21.879 now that that's not what happens. I know now that 157 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.840 security guards don't travel several blocks in their their personal 158 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:28.799 vehicle and track down a child and trying to stuff 159 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:32.080 them into their car because he almost stole some candy. 160 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.759 At the time, at the time, I thought that's what 161 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:39.559 had happened, and I didn't tell anybody because of that. 162 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.639 I didn't tell my parents. Hey, this guy tried to 163 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.600 tried to trunk me, as it's called if it were 164 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.759 his trunk. But uh, and I kept this to myself 165 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.320 looking back as an adult on these on these crimes, 166 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:57.679 which was which was sort of my my interest was 167 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:01.759 sort of prompted by this, this this feeling I had 168 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:07.120 had over the years that that escalated into like obsessions 169 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:09.559 sort of trying to figure out who this person was 170 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.320 who had tried to snatch me, And looking back into that, 171 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:17.440 I realized that there were similarities in the open KINI 172 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.519 child killings had and the mL of this particular guy. 173 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.879 These four kids had been snatched what we presume from 174 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:30.399 very close to, if not right upon these live shopping centers. 175 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.120 The car they were allegedly looking for was a compact car. 176 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:37.879 They suspected that the man they were looking for may 177 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.320 have been posing as a policeman or security guard or 178 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:44.000 clergy something like that, because there was never any struggle 179 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:48.720 witness from any of these kids, so nobody noticed they 180 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.519 had disappeared. You know, all of the things seemed to fit, 181 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:57.799 and now that didn't pan out to be true when 182 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.320 I got into the investigation, But my investigation to the 183 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.679 attempted abduction of myself led me to really obsess about 184 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:05.720 these crimes, and the case just took over my life 185 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.480 for about ten or twelve years. And throughout those years 186 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:10.240 and with the publication of the book The kill Jar, 187 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:14.240 my ultimate obligation has been to the family members of 188 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.559 the victims. And that means, well, I did write a 189 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.559 book and there's a TV show, and my interest was 190 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:24.720 anchored by my own sort of moment of terror, so 191 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.639 to speak. You know, I don't tend to play that 192 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.120 up too much in the book. I don't tend to 193 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.840 play up my experience too much with the almost abduction, 194 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.399 because at the end of the day, mine was an 195 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.519 almost subduction, and these these four kids were abducted and 196 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:45.799 horribly abused and murdered, and I so that's what anchors 197 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.679 me to the case. But I tend to focus on 198 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:54.559 the book and in my thoughts on what happens after 199 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.039 I get interested in the case, you. 200 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.759 Know, right. 201 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:03.440 Now about twenty ten, that's when you do become more 202 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.519 interested again. We'll talk about that in a second. But 203 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:10.879 let's get to the horror that was these child killings, 204 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.919 the panic that ensued with this. Let's get right to 205 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:20.240 the very first victim, Mark Stebbens, and this is February 206 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.759 fifteenth to nineteenth, As you claim in the book, he 207 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.679 was held captive. He was twelve years old. Tell us 208 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:33.000 about Mark Stebbens and what are the circumstances, the circumstances 209 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:34.799 in his abduction. 210 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:39.320 So Mark Stebbins, you know, he was a twelve year 211 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:43.679 old boy and disappeared on February fifteenth. He had been 212 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.759 at a work party for his mother in Ferndale, Michigan, 213 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:53.080 a very like a blue collar neighborhood outside of Detroit, 214 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:56.360 a suburb of Detroit. And let me just preface all 215 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.360 of this, would say that all of these kids were 216 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.039 abducted from what we rightly call the suburbs of Detroit. 217 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:07.799 But when you say suburbs, now you think mc mansions 218 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.720 and all this business. You know, the three of these suburbs, 219 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:17.039 three of these areas are very blue collar areas. Back then, 220 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:19.720 you know it was a suburb. But you jump on 221 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.919 the freeway and in five minutes you're in the city 222 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.360 of Detroit. And I say that I preface that because 223 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.679 Detroit comes into play later in this investigation in a 224 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:34.279 very important way. But Mark Stevens February fifteenth, nineteen seventy six. 225 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:37.879 I did a war party with his mother. He lived 226 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.759 just a few blocks away. He decided that they want 227 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:45.639 to go home and turn on television watch a movie, 228 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.519 and he was allowed to do so because that's that's 229 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.879 what people did at the time. You know, regardless of 230 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:53.639 your age, you can walk wherever you wanted. And of 231 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:59.559 course twelve, you know, is a relatively old old, old 232 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.759 young boy. You know, he's almost a teenager, and of 233 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.879 course he's going to walk alone to where he goes. 234 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.120 But he left the American Legion. Yeah, he left the 235 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:10.679 American Region Hall and he was never never seen again 236 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.600 until the nineteenth when his body was so it's four 237 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:20.639 days later his body was discovered. There are, oddly, there 238 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.240 are conflicting reports whether or not he was discovered on 239 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:29.279 a low brick wall behind a shopping a retail district, 240 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:37.799 like a low rent retail district in Southfield, one city over, 241 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.879 or or whether he was found in the snow. You know, 242 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.919 when you google this case, man, this is one thing 243 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.960 that becomes very important to When you google this case, 244 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:50.480 you'll find all kinds of things. You'll find information saying 245 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.799 that all four of these victims were found in the snow, 246 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.039 placed on their back, their arms crossed, presented to the 247 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.200 world as if gifted by the killer. Things of this nature, 248 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:04.559 creepy thing like that. In reality, there's conflicting reporting from 249 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:11.360 police documents, from witness statements and such. It's assumed that 250 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:15.279 Mark Stebbens was placed on a wall at times. It's 251 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.399 also assumed at times that Mark Stevens was leaning in 252 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.039 the snow near this little wall. What we know, regardless 253 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:25.080 of his placement, is within ten feet I can tell 254 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.559 you I can walk out to that dump site and 255 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.120 say this is more or less where Mark Stevens was found. 256 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.919 And that's all that at this point really matters. What 257 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:37.240 also matters is that the official narrative at the time 258 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.120 was that Mark Stebbens had been bathed, he had been 259 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:46.960 scrubbed clean, his clothing had been washed and pressed. There 260 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:50.440 was no trades evidence, no evidence of any sort that 261 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:55.200 would link us to any kind of killer. You know. 262 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.720 The presentation of his body was such that it was, 263 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:05.120 it was said, was such that a lone, maniacal serial 264 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.360 killer must have been in charge of this situation, somebody 265 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:12.639 who knew police work, somebody who meticulously took care not 266 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:16.240 to leave evidence, somebody who then also placed the body 267 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.279 in such a way as to taunt the police, begging 268 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.360 them to try to find him, which they would never 269 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.600 be able to do. This was the myth, This was 270 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:28.480 the low and the police let that wor linger for 271 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.960 various reasons. That we can speculate on. But when his 272 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.360 body was found, the narrative was such that nothing had 273 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.120 been left behind. That's not true, and I'll get into 274 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.960 that briefly. I can tell you that there was blood evidence, 275 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.840 there was semen evidence, there was salive evidence, there were fingerprints, hairs, 276 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.679 all kinds of stuck men. So we didn't know this though, 277 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.120 until years later. And I would say nobody really knew 278 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.240 this outside of the police force until I and a 279 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.639 handful of others started really digging into this case in 280 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:06.000 about twenty ten. Like you say, the next victor, the 281 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:11.759 next victim was Joe Robinson, also twelve years old, disappeared 282 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:18.359 December twenty second in in uh a similar fashion. She 283 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:23.680 was on her own, she her her well, we'll skip 284 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:25.880 to the chase here. She disappeared the twenty second. She 285 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.279 was found on the twenty sixth. She was found on 286 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:33.000 the side of of a busy freeway, dumped into the 287 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.160 snow with a shotgun blast to her head. If I 288 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:39.960 back up a second, I remember to tell you that 289 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:46.440 Mark Stevens was was murdered by asphyxiation. Joe Robinson, Yeah, 290 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:53.160 Joe Robinson was on the on the outside. It appeared 291 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.599 that she may have been murdered by this shotgun blast, 292 00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:58.160 but there was evidence to believe that she was also 293 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:05.200 asphyxiated prior to that. There's a lot of questioning around 294 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:11.119 this shotgun blaster to her face, and many believe and 295 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:16.279 there is supporting allegorical evidence to believe that she was 296 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:20.319 shot post mortem. She had or or close to post mortem. 297 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:24.960 She was possibly asphyxiated, not to death, but to what 298 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.240 the killer thought was death. Where she was dumped, the 299 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.880 killer may have realized she was alive and shot her. 300 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.440 She was shot though we know at the dump site 301 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:42.039 based on blood, blood patterns and such, that was December 302 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:43.640 twenty second, where she was missing. 303 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:49.319 Ye was there was there a police immediately identify a 304 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.640 link between those or was the shotgun blast misleading the. 305 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:58.720 Shot the Shatgumla. Yes, the shotgun blast was misleading. We 306 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.440 we know now that there is evidence linking all four 307 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:09.319 of these victims. At the time, the shogum blast was 308 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:11.839 definitely misleading. Did not know they were looking for a 309 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:19.799 serial killer. They did not speak that way. At least 310 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:25.400 one Less than a month later, January second, Christine Mahalik 311 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:33.480 was ten years old, was taken under similar circumstances. She 312 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.640 was held in captivity for nineteen days. She was not 313 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.400 found until the twenty You know, she was not found 314 00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:45.440 until the twenty first of January. All sorts of Again, 315 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.400 all sorts of evidence points to the fact in retrospect, 316 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.640 when somebody goes back and looks at the files, points 317 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.160 to the fact that this was a rated murder. At 318 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.880 the time, they started to publicly allude to the fact 319 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:02.839 that that the murders may have been related because of 320 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.160 the proximity and dates, because of some of the similar 321 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:16.400 mo o. Three months later, Timothy King, eleven year old boy, 322 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:23.559 was taken after purchasing some items had a small strip 323 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:29.319 mall pharmacy such as the one I had visited uh 324 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:33.039 and he left and and they This is the only 325 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.839 abduction that may have had a witness to the moments 326 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:44.480 before it. A witness indicates that Timothy King was seen 327 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.759 talking to a man next to a vehicle that was 328 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.359 a blue Gremlin. This is a small compact car. It's 329 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:54.160 blue with a white hockey stripe of paint up its side, 330 00:20:54.799 --> 00:21:01.559 and this man and the Gremlin are are famous in 331 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.559 this case for having made it to a composite a 332 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.960 poster wanted poster with a composite sketch of the man 333 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.720 and an image of the blue gremlin. And this for 334 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.680 all those in the Detroit area who remember this case 335 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:21.720 from the seventies and eighties, this is what is remembered most, 336 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.119 the picture of the man and the blue gremlin. It 337 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:31.880 is said that both of the boys were sodomized with objects, 338 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:36.480 although both boys had evidence left on their bodies that 339 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.160 would indicate that they were sexually abused. Beyond just object objects. 340 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:43.960 There was a new big hair found in Tooothy King's 341 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.079 growing area, and there was that was not his, and 342 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:55.000 there was of course seamen found on Mark Stevens, and 343 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.039 you know, there's there. Their official line is that the 344 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.119 girls were not sexually assaulted. Well, there is allegorical evidence 345 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.559 as well as news reporting UH indicating that that's probably 346 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.039 not true. There was a debate between the medical examiner 347 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.640 UH and the corner that that had to be relooked 348 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.440 at three different times. UH. This disagreement about whether or 349 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.480 not one of the girls had been assaulted and sexually 350 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:29.799 assaulted in and and in reality, UH, it's believed and 351 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.480 I and I discussed in detail the UH, the the 352 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:40.000 probability that whether they were physically sexually assaulted or not 353 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.599 is not is not so much relevant as the things 354 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:49.200 that tie them to a abuse of a sexual nature, 355 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.880 regardless of whether or not they were physically violated. You know, 356 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.440 you can you can commit criminal sexual conduct on child 357 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.440 without actually you know, physically touching them. You can fallograph 358 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.119 them naked, you can position them, you can of course 359 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.559 abused them in many ways that are and so you know, 360 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.279 there are a lot of investigators at the time who 361 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.240 who alleged that possibly these crimes weren't even related. It 362 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.079 was short sighted them, it was lacking uh a common 363 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.839 common sense in that in that assumption. And and that's 364 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:27.400 the four victims. And then the killings mysteriously stopped. Mark Stebbins, 365 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.880 Jill Robinson, Christinahala, and Toothy King. We know were linked 366 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.599 based on physical evidence that was left behind on their bodies, 367 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.000 but we do not have UH subsequent killings with similar 368 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:42.400 physical evidence or similar suspects. So we believed that these 369 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.559 four were the only four uh in under the umbrella 370 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.680 of the Oakland County child killings. 371 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:53.279 Now you talked about that they had dubbed the press 372 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:56.839 had dubbed the killer of the Oakland or these killings 373 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.759 of the Oakland County child killings. But very restingly they 374 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.839 the media, I guess, had named him. What was the 375 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.279 name they gave him? And why? 376 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:12.240 Well, the name they gave quote him, as you say, 377 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.240 although as I discussed quite quite frequently in the book, 378 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.480 I don't believe there's a singular killer in this instance, 379 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.160 or at least or at least other people were complicit 380 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.240 and knowing. But the name they originally gave quote him 381 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:34.960 was the babysitter. Because of the continued narrative that these 382 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.119 bodies were cleaned, they were scrubbed free of evidence or 383 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.279 to breathe. Their clothing had been washed and pressed. The 384 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:46.079 children had been fed while in captivity. So this indicated 385 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.880 to the press and to the police initially that this 386 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.200 was an unusual type of murderer. This was a person 387 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:58.960 who cared for the kids, who who you know, coddled 388 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.079 them in some ways for compared to the usual standards 389 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:07.240 of known serial killers and such. But I say to 390 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.799 you that you know, if you're holding somebody for nineteen 391 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.319 days and you want to continue to abuse this person 392 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.359 for nineteen days, well that person needs to be fed. 393 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:22.920 If you are holding somebody for four days and you 394 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.039 want to continue to use them in certain ways. It's 395 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.279 very possible that they should be fed, you know, and 396 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.720 so and so I think the press. It appears that 397 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.559 the press made a lot out of a little because 398 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.559 they were, you know, they were looking for headlines, and 399 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:44.279 the police did not do much to dissuade them from 400 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.359 these kinds of narratives. Now we will have to look 401 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:50.119