Speaker 1: Monster House presents.
Speaker 2: Okay, James, we offer up a series of temptations, gradually
Speaker 2: increasing in terms of duration and intensity, degree of moral
Speaker 2: and equity. Essence of baptism in this case allows us
Speaker 2: to begin work long before the age of reason. At
Speaker 2: three dis five maybe at theft of a toy car
Speaker 2: can do a great deal. Then we go into bigger
Speaker 2: and better things at eight. Grandmother's gifts of a Ouiji
Speaker 2: board gives immediate access to his decision making. So we
Speaker 2: began steering them without them all, calling into question exactly
Speaker 2: who's doing steering enough? Yes, isn't few enough?
Speaker 3: Nos?
Speaker 2: Gives increasing rights over the victims physical and mental processes.
Speaker 2: Did that track, James?
Speaker 3: It seems random almost. I'm focused.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what we want you to think.
Speaker 2: We have a letle of focus beyond your comprehension.
Speaker 5: It's actually quite unlike anything.
Speaker 2: We've ever looking before.
Speaker 4: A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part Matt in Luckness,
Speaker 4: a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the
Speaker 4: Highlands of Scotland.
Speaker 6: It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Speaker 4: Blake Smith.
Speaker 5: And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4: There's lots of stuff going on here at Monster Talk
Speaker 4: Manor and I'm working on some classic cryptid content, but
Speaker 4: we're a little pressed for time this week, and Karen's
Speaker 4: husband Matt suggested that we check out a movie he
Speaker 4: was getting a lot of algorithmic nudges on, and that
Speaker 4: turned out to be quite the ride. Spoilers. It was
Speaker 4: packaged as a horror film, but it turned out to
Speaker 4: be more of a stealth evangelical project. It's a twenty
Speaker 4: twenty three indie film called Nefarious, and well, I can't
Speaker 4: exactly recommend the film is horror, it certainly gave us
Speaker 4: lots of stuff to talk about, so some warnings. The
Speaker 4: film deals with the death penalty, abortion, suicide, murder, religion,
Speaker 4: and politics, so there's going to be discussion that will
Speaker 4: touch on many of these topics as well. So I
Speaker 4: know we tend to steer away from stuff like this,
Speaker 4: but hopefully we managed to navigate these with respectfulness and
Speaker 4: you'll find our discussions of interest. Let's get to the Mobsterutle.
Speaker 4: We were looking for what to record this week and
Speaker 4: I had some ideas, but you problemted us with this film.
Speaker 5: So we blame him.
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't know what to expect because it's
Speaker 4: not exactly it's not one of our based on a
Speaker 4: true stories exactly, but it is an interesting film for
Speaker 4: a lot of reasons, and it's I'm curious before we
Speaker 4: get into what it's about, I'm curious, how did you
Speaker 4: hear about it?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing. When I'm at work, often I'll
Speaker 3: be playing YouTube videos and they go from one video
Speaker 3: to the next, and YouTube kind of chooses what I
Speaker 3: see next, but based on and often I leave my
Speaker 3: office and I'm doing things and I come back and
Speaker 3: now YouTube believes that I like all this stuff that
Speaker 3: I've never even seen. So it's been telling me this week,
Speaker 3: you really do like this movie.
Speaker 5: You really like this movie, so it's advertising for you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I thought, well, okay, if if you know, YouTube says,
Speaker 3: so it's got to be true. And I thought, hey,
Speaker 3: let's you know. I got kind of the gist of
Speaker 3: it from watching one short clip. I thought, Okay, this
Speaker 3: sounds monstrous and we should talk about it.
Speaker 4: So it's not just an algorithm, it's your good plgorithm.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I had the impression that was a kind of modern
Speaker 6: day Exorcist, and I guess I had some parallels to.
Speaker 3: That, a few and a lot of really stark differences that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm going to love highlighting because we've got, you know,
Speaker 3: several movies that came to mind as I was watching this,
Speaker 3: And should we mention what movie it is we're talking
Speaker 3: about or should we just keep all the way through it.
Speaker 5: Nefarious? Nefarious?
Speaker 4: A twenty twenty three indie horror film. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 4: have to say the film.
Speaker 5: I didn't know that it's such good quality.
Speaker 4: Well, it's got some money behind it. It's got some
Speaker 4: money behind it. It's not like it's not two guys
Speaker 4: in their parents' credit cards. It's it's it's.
Speaker 5: What I think of when I think of Indie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I noticed when I looked at the cast
Speaker 4: before I hit play on this film, I said, oh,
Speaker 4: that's interesting, and beck is in it. That's weird.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we were using the same brain cell.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was like, that's a strange casting. But
Speaker 4: it actually all makes sense. But I think maybe let's
Speaker 4: let's let's spoil it after the after let's let's discuss it. Like, okay,
Speaker 4: first of all, there's go to these spoilers let's talk
Speaker 4: about the film for a little while then piecing together
Speaker 4: what did we just say? What the hell does happened?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Right, right right?
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 4: The other thing I noticed before we watch it is
Speaker 4: the reviews are like critics are at like thirty three
Speaker 4: percent and audiences are at ninety six percent, which is yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: and we'll discuss that too.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, and I personally think that that you know,
Speaker 3: high number really does carry through for most of the movie.
Speaker 3: And it wasn't until the ending that I lost my
Speaker 3: high rating of the movie. So you know, as long
Speaker 3: as I ignore the ending, and I did it. They
Speaker 3: had a lot of great things about it and a
Speaker 3: lot of really scary, scary scary things about it, and.
Speaker 5: In the psychological sense and social yes, facing.
Speaker 3: You know, the reality of the world we're living in. Uh.
Speaker 3: And you know, I mean we've all seen the Peace
Speaker 3: Soup and Spinning Heads version of possession.
Speaker 5: Uh that's the real version.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've seen the real thing. But in this case,
Speaker 3: you know, it's just yeah, we have to ask that question.
Speaker 3: Does evil always have to be you know, loud and grotesque?
Speaker 3: And what if it's rational, yeah, even likable? You know,
Speaker 3: then Uh, that's pretty frightening in itself, right there, So
Speaker 3: he thought, you know a time semon.
Speaker 4: Charming.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did adore the Demon at times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so, I guess we should let me
Speaker 4: lay down the plot. The basic plot is there is
Speaker 4: a man named Edward Wayne Bray, not to be confused
Speaker 4: with the comedian and Wayne Brady. He is played by
Speaker 4: Sean Patrick Flannery, who people may know from The Bunda
Speaker 4: Saints among other things, and he's being interviewed because he's
Speaker 4: going to be executed, and according to the plot, they
Speaker 4: need to do a last minute make sure he's not
Speaker 4: actually mentally ill, he's competent to actually be executed. I
Speaker 4: don't think this is like how things normally would go.
Speaker 4: You wouldn't do this like hours before the execution, but
Speaker 4: what do I know. Yeah, but the regular psychiatrist who's
Speaker 4: supposed to be coming in jumps off a building right
Speaker 4: before the movie really gets going, and so Sean Patrick
Speaker 4: sorry Jordan Belfi is brought in as sort of the
Speaker 4: last minute replacement doctor. Only it turns out that this
Speaker 4: was all very well orchestrated by the Demon. If we're
Speaker 4: to believe the story anyway, The question is, is this
Speaker 4: guy crazy or is he really saying but he's possessed
Speaker 4: by a really evil entity.
Speaker 3: Now I noticed that, you know, the other movies or
Speaker 3: pieces of literature that kind of came to mind while
Speaker 3: watching this was, of course, The Exorcist, and I'll explain
Speaker 3: why in a moment. But there was that. There was
Speaker 3: Anne Rice's Memnoch the Devil, and there was Fallen with
Speaker 3: Denzel Washington.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Fallen especially, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 3: And have you ever read or do you know about
Speaker 3: the Screwtape Letters.
Speaker 4: You know, it's a shame that I haven't, but I
Speaker 4: know the C. S. Lewis wrote them, and that I
Speaker 4: think John Cleese did a performance of them. It's supposed
Speaker 4: to be quite good.
Speaker 3: Oh M to look for that, because you know, it
Speaker 3: is heavy on the satire. But the demon reminds me
Speaker 3: of Screwtape. And basically what happens in the Screwtape Letters
Speaker 3: is you've got this demon named Screwtape who is basically
Speaker 3: counseling his nephew, Wormwood on how to tempt humanity and
Speaker 3: how to get them going down that path. And there
Speaker 3: was just a little bit of that personality in there
Speaker 3: with this with this demon, and and it was. It
Speaker 3: was really interesting. I mean because there was a real uh,
Speaker 3: there was a lot of propaganda in this this. You know,
Speaker 3: when The Exorcist came out, the Catholic Church had a
Speaker 3: huge number of people converting to Catholicism, and I think
Speaker 3: sort of, you know, right wing Christians were really hoping
Speaker 3: for the same kind of effect with this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is heavy on the proselytizing.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is definitely heavy.
Speaker 6: Well, you've mentioned a number of books that focus on
Speaker 6: exorcisms and demonic possession.
Speaker 5: But what I thought of was Sybil.
Speaker 6: So the book, oh, the movie, I thought of that
Speaker 6: because they were the personality is Actually yeah, they did
Speaker 6: actually mention the disorder disassociated identity disorder. It used to
Speaker 6: be known as multiple personality disorders. Yes, so where someone
Speaker 6: experiences too or more distinct personalities or identities as a
Speaker 6: different different characters. And because we kept seeing this switch
Speaker 6: between Edward and the Demon, that was what I kept
Speaker 6: thinking of. I guess we'll get into this more too,
Speaker 6: just talking about Edward and the Demon, the different characters.
Speaker 6: But I certainly felt a lot of empathy for Edward
Speaker 6: at times, and even though he's this serial killer who's
Speaker 6: killed at least six people, possibly many more. You could
Speaker 6: really see as this fiction is playing out that he's
Speaker 6: the victim.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and it is, you know, heart wrenching at
Speaker 3: times when you get to see how much joy Nefarious
Speaker 3: gets out of his continued torturing of Edward, even down
Speaker 3: to the double cheeseburger.
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, I want let him, let him have his
Speaker 5: final meal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's it is really sad. I mean
Speaker 3: there was a lot of things that were very confronting
Speaker 3: about this movie. Oh yeah, And I mean you've got
Speaker 3: things like, let's let's talk about Fallen just for a moment.
Speaker 3: A Zazel in Fallen I think really reminds me a
Speaker 3: bit of COVID. You know. It was this thing that
Speaker 3: would would just transfer by touch, and it was all
Speaker 3: about destroying its host, you know, and so it's really indifferent.
Speaker 3: You know the whole way through, Uh, the Exorcist Pazuzu
Speaker 3: was about kind of destroying innocence and and you know,
Speaker 3: making you feel that despair. Uh, And so it had
Speaker 3: a slightly different thing. Now you've got Nefarious, who is
Speaker 3: all about making you just kind of forget and not
Speaker 3: notice and just numb, numb to what's going on right
Speaker 3: in front of you, and not really pay attention to
Speaker 3: it or think of it as evil. And I think
Speaker 3: that that really unintentionally, I think that it really highlights
Speaker 3: the world we're living in right now and how we
Speaker 3: are constantly every day being numbed to Yeah, and the
Speaker 3: things that are going on, you know, around us, and
Speaker 3: we're just kind of you know, it's all theater. It's
Speaker 3: all theater to us, and it's it shouldn't be. And
Speaker 3: that's the part that hit me hard, even though that
Speaker 3: wasn't even in the message. You know. The message was
Speaker 3: you know, if you'll, if you'll allow me, you are
Speaker 3: all infected with the woke mind virus and you think
Speaker 3: that these non Christian things are okay, but they're not,
Speaker 3: and it's all part of the demon coming to get you.
Speaker 3: That's the bottom line of this whole movie. But the
Speaker 3: things that I think we pick up from watching it
Speaker 3: in our current you know, a climate is far more
Speaker 3: scary than what they were intending to scare us with.
Speaker 5: Well, how could they have learn a couple of years ago?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: How could they from twenty sixteen on? How could they
Speaker 3: have known.
Speaker 5: Twenty twenty three? Yes, even more has happened.
Speaker 4: It's interesting that the film itself. Okay, so I kept
Speaker 4: getting this vibe. I was like, this reminds me of
Speaker 4: the sort of thing when I was growing up. They
Speaker 4: would have movies where they would bring them into the
Speaker 4: church and they would have like a movie night, and
Speaker 4: it would be like some Christian values film would be
Speaker 4: shown instead of instead of like, instead of in a
Speaker 4: movie theater, you'd show it at.
Speaker 3: The church, a very special episode of Family Times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but I I I'm not far off. I
Speaker 4: mean to say, you know, it's heavy handed propaganda, like
Speaker 4: I mean it, I don't there's a very strong It's
Speaker 4: weird to me because there's absolutely a very strong Christian
Speaker 4: message here, but it's not exactly to the level I
Speaker 4: would have expected given the people who put it together. Right,
Speaker 4: So it turns out the directors here, Carrie Solomon and
Speaker 4: Chuck Consulman, are the people behind God's Not Dead and
Speaker 4: that that those fine cinema features and you know, and
Speaker 4: so our protagonist in this film, the psychiatrist, is portrayed
Speaker 4: as being an atheist, and the demon goes to this
Speaker 4: whole thing about you know, you'd have to invite me
Speaker 4: in and He's like, Okay, you know, come on in,
Speaker 4: you know, and then I'm going to spoil it. At
Speaker 4: the end of the film, there's a very tense moment
Speaker 4: where it seems like maybe the demon has taken over
Speaker 4: and take it. He's he's gonna actually cause him to suicide,
Speaker 4: which makes no sense because he told him he was
Speaker 4: going to publish his book, and like, so his whole
Speaker 4: thing was he wants to publish a book, which is them.
Speaker 6: You know. That was an interesting kind of contrast to
Speaker 6: the Bible. I loved him referring to the Carpenter.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, but it's like I don't understand, Like it's
Speaker 4: so simplistic in a way. It's like, hey, you know,
Speaker 4: you guys have your Bible. We're going to do our
Speaker 4: dark evangelism, and we're going to have this book about
Speaker 4: me the demon nefarious and how you know how to
Speaker 4: take over the world? Right, that's and it's going to
Speaker 4: be a book, because when you want to change the world,
Speaker 4: you definitely want a book. That's how you do it.
Speaker 4: People love to read. People are always sitting down and
Speaker 4: reading their books.
Speaker 6: Yes, I guess around for thousands of years, he is.
Speaker 4: Not caught up. He should be on TikTok is I
Speaker 4: guess what I say.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing, you know, being around for thousands
Speaker 3: of years, the amount of time that we've been exposed
Speaker 3: to TikTok is a very short so he's still just
Speaker 3: a little behind.
Speaker 6: I think the whole film was was simplistic and intended
Speaker 6: to be that way. I mean, it all centers on
Speaker 6: the psycho, one room, one table, prisoner sitting there. I mean,
Speaker 6: that is that's hard work for from a writing perspective
Speaker 6: and an acting perspective.
Speaker 4: I mean, Sean Patrick Flannery was I mean knocking it
Speaker 4: out of the park. But you know it's it's not
Speaker 4: Jordan Belfie's fault, I guess, but he felt like he
Speaker 4: was on a TV show, and Flannery felt like he
Speaker 4: was going for the Oscar. I don't know he was really.
Speaker 6: I mean he could tell when he was the Demon
Speaker 6: because he had that twet yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if and the Heath Ledger joker dry mouth yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean yeah.
Speaker 4: He brought a lot of really clear acting to it.
Speaker 4: I mean like he made character tics and like gave
Speaker 4: you clear indications when he was hopping back and forth
Speaker 4: between his two roles. I don't know. I was very
Speaker 4: impressed by him, not so much by the script. And
Speaker 4: again I'm super open minded to it doesn't bother me
Speaker 4: if a film has, you know, religious undertones or whatever
Speaker 4: or overtones if it's a good movie. And I think
Speaker 4: what happened at the end, as you say, it sort
Speaker 4: of collapsed into a hyper simplistic, predictable conclusion that kind
Speaker 4: of spoiled where it seemed like it was going. I
Speaker 4: don't know, That's just my take, but I definitely got
Speaker 4: the vibe that this would be a thing that you
Speaker 4: could have shown at a church, and maybe people did,
Speaker 4: and that the ninety six percent approval ready for the
Speaker 4: audience is probably Christian love bombing on the review.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean,
Speaker 3: but but you know, being a demonic possession fan that
Speaker 3: I am, as we all are, yes, I did enjoy
Speaker 3: a lot of aspects of it, you know, I enjoyed
Speaker 3: the points where the demon was leading him down the
Speaker 3: path of this is all fake, I'm you know. In
Speaker 3: the Book of the Exorcist, uh Pazuzu did that to
Speaker 3: Father Karras where they found evidence in her room that
Speaker 3: she had been reading about cults and everything, so her
Speaker 3: knowledge about this was was not diabolical. Uh, And so
Speaker 3: he's thinking this whole thing, I can't do an exorcism,
Speaker 3: this is not you know, this is not real. This
Speaker 3: girl is is faking. And you know, the demon does
Speaker 3: the same thing here. We're calling doubt, you know, into
Speaker 3: his mind. And I really appreciated the fact that they
Speaker 3: kind of kept that kind of personality or that thought
Speaker 3: process of a demon what I And I liked it
Speaker 3: too when he said, you know, invite me in, come on,
Speaker 3: invite me in. And then he doesn't take him up
Speaker 3: onto it and take him up on it, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of a much too vulgar display of power. And
Speaker 3: he just said, you know, patience, And of course I
Speaker 3: knew what was going to happen the minute he said patience.
Speaker 3: I knew what was coming. But the fact that this
Speaker 3: diabolically intelligent being set things up so beautifully to fail
Speaker 3: so stupidly disappointed me, because you know, if he was
Speaker 3: really that diabolically intelligent, it would not have ended the
Speaker 3: way it did, and we would have been in much
Speaker 3: more despair, such as at the end of Fallen you
Speaker 3: know where the demon keeps going. Now, it did show
Speaker 3: us that the demon was still there and still going.
Speaker 3: But then it makes you wonder what was the point
Speaker 3: of the whole display.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really.
Speaker 6: Well, it could have gone lots of different ways. I
Speaker 6: was wondering if the demon was going to be transferred
Speaker 6: into the psychiatrist. I just wasn't really sure what was
Speaker 6: going to happen. But what I did like was the.
Speaker 3: And that's what the foreshadowing told us.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I think it did lead us astray a
Speaker 6: number of times, and one of those times was when
Speaker 6: the priest came in. I really thought he was going
Speaker 6: to factor more into the rest of the movie, but
Speaker 6: I thought it was interesting the way that threw a
Speaker 6: self balance with him coming in and the demon was
Speaker 6: very worked up and fearful of him, but then he
Speaker 6: just assured him, Oh, well, these kinds of things don't exist.
Speaker 5: I don't do exorcisms, and he just dismissed all of that.
Speaker 6: So I don't know what his his religious background was,
Speaker 6: but he certainly didn't.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that whole thing to me just kind
Speaker 3: of showed that the even the church has been infected,
Speaker 3: you know, with this.
Speaker 5: You know, bor skepticism.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this whole just numbness of what's going
Speaker 3: on in front of them. They've all been infected with it.
Speaker 3: You know. It's like one of the great quotes bottom line.
Speaker 2: As you're done, it's over. That's it. And we did
Speaker 2: it all right to your face, James, And now there's
Speaker 2: evil everywhere and no one even cares. Yeah, I don't agree,
Speaker 2: proving that we achieved our goal slowly with your movies,
Speaker 2: your TV and your media, which sensitized you, redirected your
Speaker 2: worldview to the point that you can't even recognize evil
Speaker 2: when it's right in front of your face. More to
Speaker 2: the point, James, you can't even feel it when you're
Speaker 2: doing it. And that's for winners and losers, Bobo. That
Speaker 2: gets decided at the time of death. These act numbers
Speaker 2: are closely guarded secret. But there are more of you
Speaker 2: ending up in my master's house than with the enemy,
Speaker 2: a lot more.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, evil didn't barge in. It just
Speaker 3: asked nicely and waited quietly, you know. And that's much
Speaker 3: more intelligent and terrifying, I think than just this monster
Speaker 3: comes stomping in to have it be really brilliant and
Speaker 3: play chess with you, And this demon played chess so
Speaker 3: well throughout this movie untill the end.
Speaker 4: But why Okay, So this has been a problem with
Speaker 4: the whole demonic possession Faustian bargain thing from the very beginning.
Speaker 4: I never understood this exactly, the idea that you would
Speaker 4: need to bargain for your soul with the devil in
Speaker 4: order to get benefits. Okay, because at least the way
Speaker 4: I was brought up as an evangelical, the idea is
Speaker 4: because of original sin, if you haven't made a relationship
Speaker 4: with Christ and accepted him as your personal ordered savior,
Speaker 4: then you're already doomed to hell. So to what advantage
Speaker 4: is it to the devil to give you when he bargained,
Speaker 4: because he's already got your soul. So it really doesn't
Speaker 4: I mean, that has never made any theological sense to
Speaker 4: me that you might be able to bargain it away
Speaker 4: unless you had given your you know, your heart to
Speaker 4: God and now you're like pulling it back to sell it,
Speaker 4: you know, like you know, maybe that would make sense.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I mean, in this case, the
Speaker 4: demon specifically talks about how that he got this guy,
Speaker 4: he got control of Brady, because it started out with
Speaker 4: his parents failing to baptize him, and then from there
Speaker 4: it was just a series of decisions after decisions until
Speaker 4: he had won him over completely and taken control. And
Speaker 4: it's like, well, you know, I mean as a metaphor, sure, yeah,
Speaker 4: that works great, but from theologically it doesn't really work
Speaker 4: great for me.
Speaker 3: Right now, we do have to have a nothing another
Speaker 3: spoiler here, and that is that this movie is being
Speaker 3: reviewed by three atheists.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: Well I have to say at this point, I'm really
Speaker 6: glad that I was raised in a mostly secular country.
Speaker 5: You have to think about things like this, and it's
Speaker 5: just what it wasted.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we talked about last week about how
Speaker 3: with with the Bothy's, how you know, they would make
Speaker 3: up stories about a Bothy to keep people away, and
Speaker 3: these days they make up stories to draw people in.
Speaker 3: And it really kind of makes us, you know, wonder
Speaker 3: what numbs us more because I remember they used to say,
Speaker 3: you don't don't watch horror films, you're just going to
Speaker 3: get numb to it all. And you know, horror films
Speaker 3: or or are going to you know, make it so
Speaker 3: you don't see what's coming because you think it's all
Speaker 3: fake and all that kind of stuff that in the eighties,
Speaker 3: I was hit with that a lot. But I have
Speaker 3: to wonder what numbs us more horror movies or headlines,
Speaker 3: because it seems like we're in an age now where
Speaker 3: we're just constantly being numbed. And that's kind of what
Speaker 3: Nefarious was telling us. You know, you're being bombarded all
Speaker 3: the time with all this stuff that makes everything you
Speaker 3: do okay. You know when he says, when when the
Speaker 3: psychiatrist says to him about the whole you know, abortion
Speaker 3: part of it, trigger.
Speaker 5: Warning, there a few of those content warnings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, uh, he says, it's complicated. And that's like
Speaker 3: the best, you know, excuse for anything that you don't
Speaker 3: want to face is to just say it's complicated. And
Speaker 3: you know, of course Nefarius loved that answer, just laughed hysterically,
Speaker 3: and you know, and I love how he said, what
Speaker 3: was it, uh, hate crimes or hate speech.
Speaker 6: Speech that we invented that ourselves, that wasn't even of Satan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like we love you for that, you know.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there was a lot of interesting things. And
Speaker 3: it's funny because I think a lot of Christians believe
Speaker 3: that they've got the market cornered when it comes to morality.
Speaker 3: And the thing is is that that the morality over
Speaker 3: that higher ground is often pretty immoral, you know, they
Speaker 3: you know, looking into which a future topic will be
Speaker 3: haunted cheets, and itzza looking at how the religious leaders
Speaker 3: there mirrored Christianity in terms of keeping people uneducated, keeping
Speaker 3: people you know, in their place through promises or fear,
Speaker 3: so they right, so they can usurp all the power.
Speaker 3: And that's where the the you know, the the morality
Speaker 3: doesn't lie, you know, is is there is the fact
Speaker 3: that the these these religious leaders throughout history have always
Speaker 3: kept truths from the people so they could hold the power.
Speaker 3: And so I think it's interesting that you've got this
Speaker 3: this Christian group basically making this movie, putting it out
Speaker 3: there as another big warning that don't get smart, don't
Speaker 3: go get an education now because.
Speaker 4: Let's you're exactly right, the psychiatrist is an atheist, and
Speaker 4: that seems to put him in special jeopardy, right, yes,
Speaker 4: because he's he's ill equipped to fight a demon, although
Speaker 4: I think he actually holds his own pretty well. But
Speaker 4: what's really confusing to me is at the end when
Speaker 4: he's in that Glenn Beck cameo moment, which I assume
Speaker 4: means he died and went to Hell, because otherwise, why
Speaker 4: does he hang out with glenb Bag exactly.
Speaker 6: A hah.
Speaker 4: But Glen Glenn's like, you know, well, how did you
Speaker 4: get through all this? And he's like, well, I'm still
Speaker 4: trying to work all that out, you know, And he's like, well,
Speaker 4: you know, if you keep at it, you'll get there.
Speaker 4: You know. What he basically means is, you know, or
Speaker 4: he seems to be implying, you will come to understand
Speaker 4: that God is real and that Christ loves you, and
Speaker 4: that this is how you've escaped, Except that that doesn't
Speaker 4: make any sense because when we last saw him prior
Speaker 4: to that jump cut, he was struggling with the police
Speaker 4: and was trying to off himself. And the next thing
Speaker 4: we know, he's successfully published this book but does not
Speaker 4: appear to have reconciled himself with God in any way.
Speaker 5: So, oh no, he was wearing a sweater.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, okay, well here is that That's a good point.
Speaker 4: I didn't think about that. Is that coding for he's
Speaker 4: accepted Christ.
Speaker 3: I think one of the big problems with this review
Speaker 3: was we only had a chance to watch it once,
Speaker 3: you could watch it more than once, you would notice
Speaker 3: things like the sweater.
Speaker 4: That's a good point. It seemed like he was still
Speaker 4: on a path towards trying to figure things out.
Speaker 6: And maybe that's why he encountered the demon again on
Speaker 6: the way out. Yeah, maybe unfinished business.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Now, I guess we should point out that the author
Speaker 4: of this the novel is Steve and I think he's
Speaker 4: pronounced d de a ce and he is a conservative
Speaker 4: talk show host on Glenn Beck's Blaze Network. So the
Speaker 4: novels published. I don't actually know who published the novel,
Speaker 4: but he's obviously using the Glymbec Blaze production company stuff
Speaker 4: for the for the making of this film, so it seems.
Speaker 4: And again from a business perspective, I cannot argue against
Speaker 4: consolidating and collaboration and all that stuff that's good. I
Speaker 4: just I don't like these films where they're heavy on
Speaker 4: the proselytizing and heavy handed. And I guess I don't
Speaker 4: mind a film outing a positive message, it's just I
Speaker 4: don't want it to be so preaty.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: Well, if I may, I went and looked up the
Speaker 6: book just then, and so the publisher's Post Hill Press,
Speaker 6: so I haven't heard of them before, but their ranking
Speaker 6: is that it is. It's listed under political fiction, and
Speaker 6: that's literature and fiction and American literature, So I.
Speaker 5: Think that that's a little bit of a giveaway.
Speaker 6: I mean, wow, the ratings are really high on this here,
Speaker 6: twenty two hundred reviews and almost five stars, So yeah,
Speaker 6: I think there's some nefariousness going on behind it.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I have to say that there was
Speaker 3: a lot of good stuff in this in this film
Speaker 3: in terms of entertainment and being thought provoking and things
Speaker 3: like that. But the bottom line is, is is it
Speaker 3: a supernatural thriller a thriller? Or is it a theological
Speaker 3: pamphlet disguised as a horror film? And I think it's
Speaker 3: kind of both.
Speaker 6: Sorry, I'm looking at the reviews and the editorial reviews
Speaker 6: of by Ted Cruz Ben Shapiro, So yeah, I think
Speaker 6: that tells us which way they swink. But oh, Kirk Cameron,
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I told her what this movie was about.
Speaker 4: She's like, oh, is Kirk Cameron in it?
Speaker 6: And I'm like, no, right, wait, he's the biggest one
Speaker 6: great comfort. Yay, what do you think this movie hasn't
Speaker 6: it then for our listeners, for skeptics.
Speaker 4: It's not as heavy handed as God's not dead, So
Speaker 4: there's that, But.
Speaker 3: I still found it to be, like, is that pretty entertaining?
Speaker 3: And I enjoyed a lot of the aspects of you know,
Speaker 3: other horror films that I enjoyed being you know, sort
Speaker 3: of a called upon in a sense, and so it
Speaker 3: was it was a different take on a demon. It
Speaker 3: was a kind of a good warning to don't get
Speaker 3: numb to the injustices being held right in front of
Speaker 3: you in the headlines on the social media every single day.
Speaker 6: They're trying to say too. I mean, that's the irony.
Speaker 6: I think that that's how they see us.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's there. They're you know, in a sense,
Speaker 3: looking in a very you know, damaged, dirty mirror. But
Speaker 3: it is a mirror, so you know, they're not quite
Speaker 3: we're not seeing each other quite the way we should be.
Speaker 3: But well, I met there's some similarities.
Speaker 4: I never like it when a movie talks about atheists
Speaker 4: though they're they're immoral or amoral, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 4: I mean also with any Christian based, you know film,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of them have that sort of subtext
Speaker 4: that oh, by the way, if you're not one of us,
Speaker 4: you're evil. And yeah, by the way, that means, oh,
Speaker 4: I don't know, four fifths of the world is evil,
Speaker 4: you know. I mean like there's a lot of people
Speaker 4: out there who are just simply never exposed to Christianity
Speaker 4: and that's never going to be a religion for them,
Speaker 4: and so by Christian's theology, they're doomed to hell. So
Speaker 4: I mean, it's there's religions complicated. This is why we
Speaker 4: usually don't talk about it very much on here, because
Speaker 4: I don't believe in it, and I think it's important,
Speaker 4: but I don't. I think it's culturally important, and I
Speaker 4: understand the comfort people get from it, but it doesn't
Speaker 4: work for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So well, you know, if we step back and go, okay,
Speaker 3: well I just watched Lord of the Rings. Do I
Speaker 3: believe in Hobbits?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Did I enjoy Lord?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't let me read the line the witch in
Speaker 4: the wardrobe because I had wits in it.
Speaker 3: My mom wouldn't because it had Turkish delight in it.
Speaker 4: I'm just telling you, what what does that mean to you? Diabetes?
Speaker 4: What exactly? No?
Speaker 7: I mean, well, we have you right where we want
Speaker 7: you then, you know, it's I just think that you know,
Speaker 7: I love demonic possession movies, and I think the fact.
Speaker 3: That this is, like I said, a bit of a
Speaker 3: a pamphlet for you know, theology. Uh, it is not
Speaker 3: that big of a deal to me because I saw
Speaker 3: it for what it was in that sense, but the
Speaker 3: story itself with the you know, I like, I like demons,
Speaker 3: and I like people fighting against them, and I think
Speaker 3: it's fun and I I always like dialog.
Speaker 4: There's lots of good dialogue, great dialogue.
Speaker 3: So there's no reason you can't enjoy this movie and
Speaker 3: and feel like you have to run out and get baptized.
Speaker 3: It's just just sorry.
Speaker 4: Do you remember so before Snopes kind of blew up
Speaker 4: in weird ways, they used to have a whole section
Speaker 4: called Blurges, which would be like someone takes a story
Speaker 4: and then they would like not it up to another
Speaker 4: level of like over heavy handed, sympathetic or treakily kind
Speaker 4: of content. So it's like a thing could be okay
Speaker 4: and interesting, but to make to make it go that
Speaker 4: extra mile, they would like pump like fifteen to twenty
Speaker 4: pounds of extra heartstrings into a five pound sack, right,
Speaker 4: it felt like that at the end, like it was
Speaker 4: really rare. Mpened it up at the end, and I
Speaker 4: think if it had stuck with more ambiguity and maybe
Speaker 4: not quite gone so heavy handed in the end, I
Speaker 4: think that would have been really cool. I think there
Speaker 4: was a lot of good to work with here, and
Speaker 4: Briggan hell Sean Patrick Flenny did a great job with
Speaker 4: the acting so and.
Speaker 5: Things I do well he did.
Speaker 6: And I just want to raise just how many topics
Speaker 6: are in this film. We're very disturbing a lot of
Speaker 6: the topics that they raised, but I think most of
Speaker 6: all just the death penalty and for me that the
Speaker 6: moral and ethical concerns.
Speaker 5: About that, and.
Speaker 6: It seemed to be a good example of wrongful conviction
Speaker 6: as well, and just coming from a country where this
Speaker 6: is outlawed, it was just very confronting and horrifying to
Speaker 6: hear about the nature of this form of execution and just.
Speaker 5: Be exposed to that. I could love that during those scenes.
Speaker 3: It was very disturbing, the depiction of the the Uh,
Speaker 3: the execution was harsh. It was definitely harsh, and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, it's not the only movie that that's done it. Again.
Speaker 3: We can talk about Fallen for that as well. But yeah,
Speaker 3: especially when you're I think, yeah, yeah, it really was.
Speaker 3: I mean the fact is that a human life was
Speaker 3: being taken is one thing. Another thing is feeling like
Speaker 3: that human life. The human in there was innocent, he.
Speaker 6: Was going to be the one left to suffer, and
Speaker 6: the demon just enjoyed watching and not being well, he
Speaker 6: actually enjoyed those experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was that was rough. That was rough, definitely.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I don't know what you stand on things
Speaker 6: like maybe we didn't want to go down that philosophical.
Speaker 5: Group, but yeah, I mean the violation of the right
Speaker 5: to life.
Speaker 4: Well, the film dealt with abortion and the death penalty
Speaker 4: and euthanasia. It may really crammed a whole lot of uh,
Speaker 4: you know, socially challenging issues in a in a in
Speaker 4: a real small package, and you know, it took the well,
Speaker 4: this is a sin, so therefore it's wrong kind of ground,
Speaker 4: which I guess the point of the atheist character would be. No,
Speaker 4: you know, in your world it's a moral question, and
Speaker 4: other people's it's an ethical question. In other ways it's
Speaker 4: it's you know, it doesn't the mom have you know,
Speaker 4: there's all these questions, right.
Speaker 3: It's complicated.
Speaker 4: It's complicated. It is complicated. So you know, in the
Speaker 4: simplistic world of of this moral universe, it isn't complicated.
Speaker 4: It's there's very clear delineation between what's a sin and
Speaker 4: what's not a sin, except that that's not really true either.
Speaker 4: I mean, the truth is it sins them get quite complicated,
Speaker 4: and the way people work around them gets quite complicated.
Speaker 4: The way people self justify gets quite complicated. It's almost
Speaker 4: like you need some deity to come around and sort
Speaker 4: it out, you know, It's almost it is almost like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I.
Speaker 4: Applaud them for trying. I don't know the I again,
Speaker 4: it was a little too heavy handed and proselytizing or
Speaker 4: heavy handed is the thing I keep coming back to.
Speaker 4: It was just a little over the top. But I
Speaker 4: really like something.
Speaker 5: Lost towards the end. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, one of the things that I want
Speaker 3: to kind of relate those to and my personal enjoyment
Speaker 3: of the film is, you know, Karen had written a
Speaker 3: book years ago called God Bless America, and one of
Speaker 3: them that yes, yes, this is a thinly veiled pamphlet
Speaker 3: for Karen's books. Now, the thing is with this we
Speaker 3: went and we sat in on various different religious gatherings,
Speaker 3: you know, from scientology to Amish to you know, various
Speaker 3: things along the way and right right, But the thing
Speaker 3: about it was we knew what to expect when we
Speaker 3: went in, so we weren't surprised by anything that happened.
Speaker 3: And damn if we didn't have a good time. And
Speaker 3: I think that that's how this film needs to be
Speaker 3: looked at. You know what it is, you know what's
Speaker 3: going on, but you know what it is, a fun, dirty,
Speaker 3: bumpy ride. Go for it. It's fiction. Yeah, so, and
Speaker 3: and you know, as long as you don't sort of
Speaker 3: fall into their trappings anymore than they claim we've fallen
Speaker 3: into trappings, just enjoy the film.
Speaker 5: And anyway, it was not any kind of theological alway.
Speaker 6: I really just hoped it was going to be more
Speaker 6: along the lines of The Exorcist.
Speaker 3: The Exorcist converted some people. This film is not going
Speaker 3: to convert anybody.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't see how it could, but you never know.
Speaker 5: In this country.
Speaker 4: Well, if you saw it in a church where it
Speaker 4: was followed up by some.
Speaker 5: Think they would really show something like this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
Speaker 3: But the thing is is, if you're already in the church.
Speaker 3: You're not going to get by this film.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess it's just going to reinforce your belief exactly.
Speaker 4: There's a section in the bookstore that's called Christian fiction
Speaker 4: and this always makes my wife laugh, but anyway, that
Speaker 4: it's full of litology, you know, and there's different sort
Speaker 4: of epithets for it. But things like left Behind, you know,
Speaker 4: these kind of stories set in an apocalyptic setting. Uh,
Speaker 4: you know there basically leaning and heavy on you know, congratulations,
Speaker 4: you've made it to Revelations. You know, Well, you're.
Speaker 5: Making me think.
Speaker 6: You're making me think of Bob Larsen, and he's kind
Speaker 6: of Christian porn his books.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what were those coming up for air or something?
Speaker 5: Who is books?
Speaker 3: Then you head one about a radio DJ on the
Speaker 3: air it was.
Speaker 8: A satanic panic, Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean
Speaker 8: he has all of his books and it's difficult to
Speaker 8: tell the difference between his fiction and his supposed reality.
Speaker 5: Yeah, his non fiction books, it's all the same.
Speaker 4: Like I Martin, I mean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: Larson's Book of Spiritual Warfare. But yeah, it does remind.
Speaker 3: Me of that, Yes, that that book was called Dead Air, Dead.
Speaker 5: Air, Yeah, coming up wanted to do after this movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah that's funny, but yeah.
Speaker 6: It's just just through interesting different perspectives. Is to me,
Speaker 6: this would just be wholly inappropriate to really show in
Speaker 6: any kind of group environment, unless you're just hanging out
Speaker 6: with inappropriate.
Speaker 3: You know, you took the words out of my mouth.
Speaker 3: I was going to ask that same question.
Speaker 5: Well again, I think.
Speaker 6: Really glad I grew up in mostly secular environments and yeah,
Speaker 6: that's just.
Speaker 4: These are all big issues. I mean, the the thing
Speaker 4: about Christianity or any religion I guess that has these
Speaker 4: prescriptions for behavior is if they're right, Like, you know,
Speaker 4: the implications are quite serious, right, so you know I
Speaker 4: don't believe them because there's so many religions and uh,
Speaker 4: you know I I my parents got upset with me
Speaker 4: because you know, I came out as an atheist and
Speaker 4: my dad was like, well, maybe you just need to
Speaker 4: study the Bible more. And I'm like, no, no, no, I
Speaker 4: think you misunderstand. I didn't become an atheist by studying
Speaker 4: the Bible rarely. I became an atheist because I read
Speaker 4: a lot about the Bible and read the Bible. It's like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm overread, not underread. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3: But there is a reason that we have Pascal's wager,
Speaker 3: and that's I mean, that's where we stand with this
Speaker 3: whole thing. Is it's I'm not sure better safe than sorry,
Speaker 3: which is a terrible version.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, yeah, I think a lot of people are
Speaker 6: prone to that. But yeah, certainly I'm starting to have
Speaker 6: discussions with our.
Speaker 5: Son about that. Right now.
Speaker 6: I'm talking about all of the various religions in the world,
Speaker 6: the world religions and indigenous ones, and they all think
Speaker 6: that they're right. How can they all possibly be right
Speaker 6: with all the conflicting plans and that they all have
Speaker 6: that righteousness and well, and it.
Speaker 4: Can't seem to be left alone at personal choice. It's
Speaker 4: these people want to get political power and then and
Speaker 4: make their moral choices into the legal choices for everyone else.
Speaker 4: And that's that's hardly fair. So if if it was
Speaker 4: just about personal, you know, your own beliefs, I don't
Speaker 4: think I would care what people believe so much. But
Speaker 4: it's when they have their beliefs and now they want
Speaker 4: to inflict them on me, that's why I really get
Speaker 4: bothered by it.
Speaker 5: So separated.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, allegedly, Yeah, it's Anyway, I don't like politics,
Speaker 4: and I don't really like discussion religion because it's so divisive,
Speaker 4: and I think we've done a good job of talking
Speaker 4: around some of that stuff. And again I don't I'm
Speaker 4: not an evangelical atheist. I just that's where I've landed
Speaker 4: is in the non believer world. But I still enjoy
Speaker 4: going to religious meetings, and I love camaraderie and the
Speaker 4: friendship of many Christian communities, and I appreciate.
Speaker 5: A lot of the things too.
Speaker 4: So I just I don't hate Christianity. I just I'm
Speaker 4: just I. Yeah, it's not I. I have come down
Speaker 4: real hard is I don't believe in this and I'm
Speaker 4: not inclined to change.
Speaker 6: And both of you have unique perspectives. Yeah, not much
Speaker 6: has changed for me, but for you guys, certainly.
Speaker 3: We've come from some very interesting places in our past
Speaker 3: to get to it.
Speaker 4: Stealthy evangelicism through cinema is one of those recurring things,
Speaker 4: and I guess this sort of fits into that, Melu.
Speaker 4: But as these things go, I enjoyed this one a
Speaker 4: lot more than anything I've seen with Kurt Cameron or
Speaker 4: Kevin Sorbo or any of these other things. So it's
Speaker 4: certainly not the worst. How about that? Well, anyway, I
Speaker 4: think that concludes Nefarious You've been forewarned, is forearmed.
Speaker 5: And various film in many ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you
Speaker 4: again next week.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Mortle.
Speaker 4: You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 3: I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4: So you just heard Matt Baxter, Karen and myself discussing
Speaker 4: the twenty twenty three film Nefarious. A link to the
Speaker 4: film and some articles about it will be in the
Speaker 4: show notes. Was it a horror movie? It was so close,
Speaker 4: But like Matt, I think the ending underminds both its
Speaker 4: premise and its potential. We hope you enjoyed this episode
Speaker 4: of Monster Talk. Our goal here is to bring you
Speaker 4: the best in monster related content with a focus on
Speaker 4: scientific skepticism and critical thinking. If you enjoy our show
Speaker 4: and want to support our mission, start out by visiting
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Speaker 1: Mh, this has been a Monster House presentation.
Speaker 6: You said that you would prove to me your redeemon,
Speaker 6: but all you've done is waste my time, my turn.
Speaker 3: I want to talk to Edward Wayne Brady.
Speaker 5: Is Wayne Brady going to have the choke a bit