Speaker 1: Welcome to another segment of the nonprofits where today we're
Speaker 1: going to discuss police misconduct. Now, I know the police
Speaker 1: must conduct is nothing new. However, there's been some research
Speaker 1: in the details regarding cases involving non lethal force and
Speaker 1: it's revealed some surprising and well, very disturbing information. Aaron,
Speaker 1: what do you have for us?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: A three year investigation by the Associated Press, the Howard
Speaker 3: Center for Investigative Journalism, programs at the University of Maryland
Speaker 3: and Arizona State University, and Frontline PBS have revealed that
Speaker 3: over a thousand people have died in encounters with police
Speaker 3: that involve non lethal force. The report gives details on
Speaker 3: a bunch of different stories that show that there is
Speaker 3: still work to be done to better train our police officers,
Speaker 3: to increase and improve the data that gets released about
Speaker 3: police encounters, and work at removing the blue wall of
Speaker 3: silence that prevents police culture and prevents us from holding
Speaker 3: the police officers accountable when they use excessive inappropriate actions.
Speaker 3: These articles are from the AP News by Jeff Martin
Speaker 3: on August sixteenth, twenty twenty four, and March twenty eighth,
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Thanks Aaron and one thing I wanted to want to
Speaker 1: go straight into is do you think that wanting to
Speaker 1: be a police officer is something that sometimes attracts people
Speaker 1: who just really are a bad fit for the job.
Speaker 3: So oh, I totally agree that you can look at
Speaker 3: all kinds of professions in the world and you can
Speaker 3: see the certain personality types are attracted to those kinds
Speaker 3: of professions. If you hang around a lot of engineers,
Speaker 3: you get to know what an engineer's like.
Speaker 2: For the same thing. Doctors are kind of the same way.
Speaker 3: There's just certain personalitypes that are charge to certain jobs,
Speaker 3: and police officer is definitely one of those. They can
Speaker 3: attract people that like to throw their weight around. It
Speaker 3: can attract people that like to be in power and
Speaker 3: in control, and when you have those personality traits, you
Speaker 3: can sometimes abuse that power and take advantage of people.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I definitely think policing is we have to
Speaker 3: be really careful who we allow into those that profession.
Speaker 2: I completely agree.
Speaker 1: I For me personally, I long have supported community policing
Speaker 1: rather than this adversarial nature of especially since the drug
Speaker 1: war has been something that's pretty much pervaded policing for
Speaker 1: the last forty years where we've seen the US versus
Speaker 1: them mentality of the police to be stronger and stronger,
Speaker 1: and oftentimes I think we hire people from the wrong
Speaker 1: segments of the population to try to get a more
Speaker 1: effective service. Now switching over to you, aj, I noticed
Speaker 1: your article mentioned that one thousand, over a thousand deaths
Speaker 1: that researched and there was some very clear signs and negligence.
Speaker 1: Are the police typically being held accountable for these deaths?
Speaker 1: Are they being opened and straightforward with the victims' families.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in this specific investigation, out of the one thousand
Speaker 4: deaths identified, we're being caused by police, you know that
Speaker 4: enforced by police, but only twenty eight were charged in
Speaker 4: less than two hundred in some kind of settlement. And
Speaker 4: the reason for this was because prosecuting officers seem a
Speaker 4: sort of politically sensitive, you know, like just don't want
Speaker 4: to do that. And in the case of the person
Speaker 4: in the article, the twenty two year old Austin, he
Speaker 4: had a history of caesars and when the police came,
Speaker 4: they tased him and they placed him in his stomach,
Speaker 4: which is also known as the prone position, and this
Speaker 4: is what ultimately led to his death. He was placing
Speaker 4: that position for such a long period of time. But
Speaker 4: his family had been told that he died of a
Speaker 4: drug overdose, and this wasn't found until later on when
Speaker 4: they did the investigation and they released video. So you know,
Speaker 4: just having a drug in your system at the time
Speaker 4: of death does not equal coalisation. Someone with a known
Speaker 4: medical condition, such as Caesar should not be placed in
Speaker 4: the prone position because these can affect things like intracranial pressure.
Speaker 4: In his case, that's what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think that training is at least part
Speaker 1: of the problem. Now, Damien. I know in the last
Speaker 1: decade there's been an increased focus regarding police here in
Speaker 1: the US. There's been moved to defund the police, while
Speaker 1: others are up in arms about how vital the police are.
Speaker 1: Where are you in this issue? Was NWA right with
Speaker 1: fuck the police? Or is it back to blue and
Speaker 1: we can't see anything wrong?
Speaker 4: Are?
Speaker 2: Is reality a little muddier.
Speaker 1: And somewhere in between those positions?
Speaker 2: What do you think?
Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I think both sentiments have made correct points.
Speaker 5: I think back in the late eighties early nineties, when
Speaker 5: black people were essentially being targeted by police departments that
Speaker 5: were laws unto themselves. Yes, I think the NWA were
Speaker 5: right to say fuck the police. But then also, however,
Speaker 5: we know that we need a mechanism of inform laws
Speaker 5: in order to keep people safe and take the bad
Speaker 5: guys off the streets. And so in that instance, yes,
Speaker 5: back the blue because you know, thankfully, the vast majority
Speaker 5: of police interactions ends with the perpetrator being taken away
Speaker 5: and people being safe. Unfortunately, there is a small minority
Speaker 5: of interactions that go wrong. And yeah, unfortunately, even though
Speaker 5: it is a small minority, I would hate to have
Speaker 5: a child who has a non medical condition to be
Speaker 5: essentially killed by police officers who were acting as if
Speaker 5: a person resisting arrest is a threat without knowing that
Speaker 5: they have there in the middle of a legitimate medical episode.
Speaker 5: And I think for that is where we need more
Speaker 5: training and accountability. Yeah, maybe even a bit more empathy
Speaker 5: as well, because as the panel's already made clear, that
Speaker 5: sometimes the policing is a profession that people with a
Speaker 5: power bent do go to. That's not to say that
Speaker 5: every policeman is power hungry is a power hungry gorilla,
Speaker 5: but eighty is also a known fact that the more
Speaker 5: power a position has, the more likely you are too,
Speaker 5: or attract people whose whose interests aren't always altruistic.
Speaker 1: I agree, And you know, a lot of times on
Speaker 1: this show we talk about you know, religious people, religious
Speaker 1: pastors and priests, and we see people in that position
Speaker 1: of power as well abusing their power. And I really
Speaker 1: think we're seeing something similar there. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: if you're if you're a person who likes to control people,
Speaker 1: you oftentimes gravitate towards a position that's going to give
Speaker 1: you that, just as we see people who are pedophiles
Speaker 1: who often put themselves in the positions And I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to say police are pedophiles by any stretch of
Speaker 1: the imagination, but we see people like that going to
Speaker 1: places where kids are. It just makes sense. You go
Speaker 1: to where whatever you want or what's important to you,
Speaker 1: or whatever did you think is going to give you
Speaker 1: the biggest ability or greatest ability to do that.
Speaker 6: Now we see we see in church, we see it
Speaker 6: in politics, we see it in business, we see in
Speaker 6: the military, we see in in lots of facets, we
Speaker 6: see we see in lots of fats of life and
Speaker 6: lots of different professions.
Speaker 5: So the police, I know different in this aspect.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and Aaron, we'll discussed a little bit and you
Speaker 1: touched on it, Damien touched on it. Do you do
Speaker 1: you think that this often just boils down to a
Speaker 1: lack of adequate training, people not being ready to understand
Speaker 1: what's what they should do in these situations and and
Speaker 1: understand that you don't put as AJ mentioned prone people,
Speaker 1: people who have see a history of seizures in a
Speaker 1: pro position. Do you think this is oftentimes boils down
Speaker 1: to a lack of understanding and training.
Speaker 2: I think that's part of it.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I'm not I'm not very much of an of
Speaker 3: an expert on policing and what things that that can
Speaker 3: make you can do to improve them. According to this
Speaker 3: API article, that there's definitely things that police are doing
Speaker 3: in these situations that make the situation worse, that are
Speaker 3: escalating the situation, and we need to make sure that
Speaker 3: all police are trained to not do those things. Because
Speaker 3: anytime a life is lost on an accident because somebody did
Speaker 3: something wrong accidentally, that's preventable. We need to really work
Speaker 3: hard on doing that undoing and preventing that from happening
Speaker 3: in the future.
Speaker 1: I would agree, and AJ, did you find any common
Speaker 1: themes of what are common with these deaths, like something
Speaker 1: that happened frequently or what was the most dominant reason
Speaker 1: for people who ended up dead in police custody while
Speaker 1: they're being arrested.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly as in the case of Aaron who had
Speaker 4: the seasars. The AP investigation found that the most common
Speaker 4: cause of death in police don't enforced cases was the
Speaker 4: use of the prone position. So it which is and
Speaker 4: then put the person on their stomach. It doesn't usually
Speaker 4: lead to that as long as it's used for a
Speaker 4: short period of time and without adding pressure to the
Speaker 4: person's back. But unfortunately, one of the most common things
Speaker 4: for officers to do is to have one or more
Speaker 4: police officers on top of the suspect put in their
Speaker 4: knees in their back and so in this case with
Speaker 4: the prone position and the pressure is just that waiting
Speaker 4: to happen. The problem. The main issue here is that
Speaker 4: the prone position when you put someone when you put
Speaker 4: pressure on someone's stomach, it reduces the blood flow to
Speaker 4: the lungs. This lowers osigenation and eventually it can cause
Speaker 4: cardiac carest But this is why when you watch these videos,
Speaker 4: which is horrifying, you can hear the suspects saying I
Speaker 4: can't breathe. That's the case like with fluid, which would
Speaker 4: hurt the story.
Speaker 1: You know, many times, I'm totally with you there, and Damien,
Speaker 1: you had talked about recognizing that that middle ground, because
Speaker 1: it's easy to say one thing, fuck the police, It's
Speaker 1: easy to say back to blue. And as in most situations,
Speaker 1: reality is somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2: You know there there.
Speaker 1: Does need to be some sort of regulation, enforcement protection.
Speaker 1: We have to have some organization whatever we want to
Speaker 1: call them, to do that. What do you think of
Speaker 1: some of the things that we could do to mitigate
Speaker 1: some of these extreme actions and make the police citizen
Speaker 1: interaction less hazardous for frankly, both parties.
Speaker 5: Indeed, I'm actually fortunate in that in the Saints in Australia.
Speaker 5: I live in the state of Victoria in Australia, and
Speaker 5: we actually had a time of reckoning in the early nineties.
Speaker 5: During the during the nineteen eighties, the armed Robbery Squad
Speaker 5: was known to shoot first and ask questions later, and
Speaker 5: that was presuming that the suspects survived. What eventually happened
Speaker 5: was that the police, if you were cynical, you would
Speaker 5: say that they performed an execution on a particular suspect.
Speaker 5: If you're a bit more charitable, you will say that
Speaker 5: it's an arrest that went wrong. Essentially, they shot in
Speaker 5: public and killed a well known armed robber. What then
Speaker 5: happened was that the family of this armed robber set
Speaker 5: up an ambush later that night where they set a
Speaker 5: stolen car on fire, and the two young constables that
Speaker 5: went out to investigate the current of the sole and
Speaker 5: car were ambushed and shot in the head and died
Speaker 5: in the street, execution style. And it was only in
Speaker 5: the aftermath of all this that there was what was
Speaker 5: called a Royal commission, which is like the highest level
Speaker 5: of inquiry that a government can form. Here, they had
Speaker 5: a Royal commission into police interactions with suspects and they
Speaker 5: found that, yeah, there were a number of police there
Speaker 5: was a culture of police that was essentially shoot first,
Speaker 5: handcuffed first, beat up first, and then ask questions assuming
Speaker 5: that the person was in a position to speak for
Speaker 5: themselves later on, and if the person couldn't speak for themselves,
Speaker 5: it was like, well, sorry, guys, the suspect just happened
Speaker 5: to die when he was in our custody. Oh look, sorry,
Speaker 5: nothing more we can do. And it was from it
Speaker 5: was from that inquiry and from the testimony and from
Speaker 5: Blake breaking the blue wall of silence that you know, thankfully,
Speaker 5: people being shot and killed by police are very very
Speaker 5: infrequent now, very very infrequent.
Speaker 1: Now, that is, you know, something that really hits on
Speaker 1: it that until there's a little level of honesty about
Speaker 1: what's going on, and that requires both the citizens, the police,
Speaker 1: well actually all three, and the government to step back
Speaker 1: and really examine. As I know that it's been mentioned
Speaker 1: on the panel already. I believe Aaron mentioned it about
Speaker 1: when things like this happen, what do we do? You know,
Speaker 1: where we go from here? And how do we change
Speaker 1: these things?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Aaron, you know.
Speaker 1: We've talked about exposing police inadequacies and protecting police from
Speaker 1: false allegations. They both seem to be reasonable goals in
Speaker 1: my opinion. And now when it comes to police recording
Speaker 1: the interactions, do you think this has caused officers to
Speaker 1: behave differently because they're being reported and if so, in
Speaker 1: a good or a bad way?
Speaker 3: I think recording police can only lead to good outcomes
Speaker 3: because of forces visibility it provides visibility. I think all
Speaker 3: police officers should be required to wear and have body
Speaker 3: cams on at all times, or at least.
Speaker 2: When they're patrolling, when they're doing they're doing work.
Speaker 3: If a police officer turns off his camera, which in
Speaker 3: some situations police have been known to do, uh, their
Speaker 3: actions should be immediately suspect. They should be held to
Speaker 3: account for that. If those body cam footages, I think
Speaker 3: that has really started to reveal the problem with policing,
Speaker 3: that policing isn't as fair and has balanced in some
Speaker 3: parts that we want. We like to believe it is right.
Speaker 3: In some places it is, but in other places it's not.
Speaker 3: And up until we started to have ubiquitous cameras and phones,
Speaker 3: everybody's got a phone now, right, we always it was
Speaker 3: always a he said, she said type of a situation
Speaker 3: where the police officer says, no, no, this is what happened,
Speaker 3: and the victim says, no, no, this is what happened, and
Speaker 3: who are.
Speaker 2: We going to trust?
Speaker 3: But we have to trust the police because they're the police, right.
Speaker 3: I remember there was a police officer once where someone
Speaker 3: he wasn't aware he shot someone and proceeded to then
Speaker 3: stage the scene. So it made it look like he
Speaker 3: he he was being threatened, and we only know that
Speaker 3: because somebody was recording on their phone.
Speaker 5: Well say I'm gonna I'm going to jump in it
Speaker 5: and say it also happens the other the other way
Speaker 5: as well, in that civilians will accuse the police of
Speaker 5: being heavy handed or of doing something. And what we
Speaker 5: want one of the things that you bequotous body cameras
Speaker 5: do is actually show us how danger policing actually is
Speaker 5: as well as civilians. We don't like, we don't deal with,
Speaker 5: you know, the bad guys with guns, or the bad
Speaker 5: guys running drugs, or the bad guys you know who
Speaker 5: are on drugs who are going down the streets smashing
Speaker 5: things up and threatening people. And so you do have
Speaker 5: to have a little bit of respect for people who
Speaker 5: do willingly put themselves in that position to keep the
Speaker 5: community safe. And this is what I said before, was
Speaker 5: that the like the vast majority of police I think
Speaker 5: do a great job, and the vast majority of police
Speaker 5: interactions and with the perpetrator, you know, being taken away
Speaker 5: and put in a safer place, both of themselves and
Speaker 5: for and for society.
Speaker 2: Really good point. Thank you for making it. I totally agree.
Speaker 3: It helps protect not only it helps protect everybody.
Speaker 4: I was going to add to that that, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of police officers do feel that
Speaker 4: their lives is, you know, are being threatened, and so
Speaker 4: they feel that they have to use that. Of course,
Speaker 4: it's not always the case, but it is a lot
Speaker 4: of It's in a lot of the situations, and I
Speaker 4: think with a lot of them it can be when
Speaker 4: the suspect has a mental health issue and the officer
Speaker 4: feels threadened and doesn't understand how to deal with that.
Speaker 4: And I think that's why we have such a big
Speaker 4: push here in America for that the whole defund the
Speaker 4: police movement, And it's not necessarily to take away resources
Speaker 4: from the police, but rather to move them to things
Speaker 4: like having consulars for example, instead of responding to certain
Speaker 4: calls that requires some type of mental health assessment. Rather
Speaker 4: than just throwing a police officer with a gun, just
Speaker 4: throw somebody in that has the knowledge on how to
Speaker 4: handle that person so that the situation doesn't escalate.
Speaker 5: But why not just give the police that training in
Speaker 5: the first place? Well, why say defund the police? Because
Speaker 5: when you say defund the police, you are literally saying
Speaker 5: take away resources from the police, sorry and give it to.
Speaker 4: I think it's still a wrong warning that they've used
Speaker 4: for that movement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And one thing for me is
Speaker 1: I do think that there's a certain level of defunding
Speaker 1: me personally that is necessary because over the last forty
Speaker 1: years we've established a very militarized police force, primarily to
Speaker 1: deal with a drug war that will never win LEF.
Speaker 5: So is it a case of defunding the polace or
Speaker 5: reorganizing the police?
Speaker 1: Oh, without a doubt, it's a matter of reorganizing those funds.
Speaker 1: But there's so much money right now that is going
Speaker 1: into essentially militarizing our police and I.
Speaker 5: Are you going to get Are you going to get
Speaker 5: a better police force by taking money away from them?
Speaker 1: I think that we're going to get a better police
Speaker 1: force if we take away certain things. And those things
Speaker 1: are they're very expensive toys that we see that are militarization.
Speaker 1: Because the truth is is I do think that while yes,
Speaker 1: there's going to require funding for that training and far
Speaker 1: that education and more specialized people who are able to
Speaker 1: deal with certain things, because that's what we need. We
Speaker 1: need a more diverse police force. And that is going
Speaker 1: to cost money. Honestly, I don't think it's going to
Speaker 1: cost what we're spending on arming the police so that
Speaker 1: they can go in with kicking indoor police.
Speaker 5: What would you give the police to be able to
Speaker 5: do they jumped in.
Speaker 1: Well, first, I would change what the police do. I
Speaker 1: think that until we legalize in prohibition, let me put
Speaker 1: it that way, until we in prohibition entirely, I don't
Speaker 1: think we're going to change the situation because we've created
Speaker 1: us versus them, and when we come down to it, yes,
Speaker 1: we're not going to have police forces with no money.
Speaker 1: But I do think that we need to spend that
Speaker 1: money on things that aren't with the goal of kicking
Speaker 1: in people's doors with masks on and arresting them. I
Speaker 1: think that when you do that, you make police the enemy,
Speaker 1: and what you do is you create greater hostility. So
Speaker 1: while I'm not a defund the police, I do think
Speaker 1: that there are parts of our police forces that we
Speaker 1: do need to completely do away with. And I do
Speaker 1: think that this militarization, as I said that we do
Speaker 1: see with the police, we do need to defund that
Speaker 1: entirely or at least more tactful than maybe I should
Speaker 1: say redirect their money.
Speaker 5: Because we know, we know that police do a dangerous job.
Speaker 5: What would what then would you replace it with? Because
Speaker 5: if you have, you know, a rapist at on the street,
Speaker 5: who would you send in to take care of that rapist?
Speaker 1: Well, of course we're going to send in the police.
Speaker 1: But the bottom line is is that when we look
Speaker 1: at the I'm talking about the US, I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about your country, but here in the US, one of
Speaker 1: the major things that police a time is preoccupied with
Speaker 1: is nonviolent drug offenses. And so for that reason, we
Speaker 1: spend a lot of money and a lot of effort
Speaker 1: and a lot of education on how to catch people
Speaker 1: with drugs, and it's to me a colossal waste of time.
Speaker 5: We need to say, what drug zoot to society?
Speaker 4: You know, if you know, we're talking about really really minor,
Speaker 4: really minor charges like weed and things like that. It's
Speaker 4: just it's not like the drug dealers that are dealing
Speaker 4: with cocaine or major major problems. But I think that
Speaker 4: the defund the police movement is a very unfortunate name,
Speaker 4: and it gives the whole movement the wrong idea that
Speaker 4: we're trying to completely take away all resources from the police.
Speaker 4: It's like in Fideld said, it's more of a restructuring
Speaker 4: and moving money from one place that doesn't truly need it,
Speaker 4: in the specific police departments, and moving into something else,
Speaker 4: like having counselors go and respond to mental health issues
Speaker 4: and having less charges on these very minor drug charges.
Speaker 4: And you know kind of like, yeah, reorganizing the police
Speaker 4: would be a better name rather than defund the police.
Speaker 1: And let me say that I do believe and I
Speaker 1: understand that you you may have a different opinion on
Speaker 1: drug legalization, but you know, I look at Portugal and
Speaker 1: I look at different situations, and I believe in decriminalizing
Speaker 1: all drugs. I think that if we took the drugs
Speaker 1: off the streets and put them in Walmart and CBS
Speaker 1: and Walgreens, and we would have a much safer system
Speaker 1: because we wouldn't have police having to respond to those situations.
Speaker 1: And yes, there is a problem with that too, but
Speaker 1: I think that right now what we're doing is we
Speaker 1: still have the problem, and we're not addressing drug addiction.
Speaker 1: We're addressing arresting people instead. And I just don't think
Speaker 1: that's an effective way to deal with a drug problem
Speaker 1: are a good way for our police force to act
Speaker 1: as well. Now, the last thing I want.
Speaker 2: To come out real quick.
Speaker 3: So the police are trained for life threatening situations, right,
Speaker 3: and so they have to make snap judgments really quickly
Speaker 3: on whether on whether their life is threatened, whether other
Speaker 3: people's lives are threatened. And you are not going to
Speaker 3: get write one hundred percent of the time, no matter
Speaker 3: how hard you try. So and we were asking police
Speaker 3: and now for whatever reason, they now respond to more
Speaker 3: situations where the where their life isn't being threatened. But
Speaker 3: it seems like maybe it is. So do we need
Speaker 3: to have these conversations to figure out can we retrain police?
Speaker 3: Is it reasonable to retrain police to start evaluating whether
Speaker 3: situation's life threatened or not? Can they do that and
Speaker 3: still be safe? If not, maybe we need a different
Speaker 3: level of police officer that responds to different types of calls,
Speaker 3: that are trained appropriately. But I think these are really
Speaker 3: important conversations to have on how police, how we want
Speaker 3: policing to work. Because a thousand people, one hundred people,
Speaker 3: ten people, any one of us can be one of
Speaker 3: these people that threw from the story that could end
Speaker 3: up dead. And we and that's that's ten one hundred
Speaker 3: a thousand people too many.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: And one last question I had for you Aj before
Speaker 1: we wrap this up is I know that the police,
Speaker 1: often in the case cases that I read, did not
Speaker 1: really seem open with the families about how their loved
Speaker 1: ones die. Now, do you think that as we're talking
Speaker 1: about cameras, a lot of these were wearing cameras, at
Speaker 1: what level of professionalism do we see in these recordings,
Speaker 1: you know?
Speaker 4: And many of them, yes, there were professional interactions, but
Speaker 4: there were dozens of these videos that also showed officers
Speaker 4: mocking people as they were dying. They were laughing, or
Speaker 4: they were making comments like, oh, you're like a sweating
Speaker 4: little hog, or you're swimming like a little girl, or
Speaker 4: you're a lazy fuck. And many of these cases go
Speaker 4: beyond a lack of training and it's just simply a
Speaker 4: lack of empathy for another human being.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And I think that that goes back
Speaker 1: again to we do put a lot on police, and
Speaker 1: I think that it's time that we take some of
Speaker 1: that off and redirect it.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: I think that's part of the policy culture that police
Speaker 3: themselves have to take responsibility for in changing like that,
Speaker 3: makes comments like that that's inappropriate, and other police officers
Speaker 3: should be making sure that their co police officers aren't
Speaker 3: doing stuff like that because it just belies a lack
Speaker 3: of respect for other human beings and that should be
Speaker 3: unacceptable in any police force.
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that hit so on what
Speaker 1: Damien was talking about earlier, about what happened in his country,
Speaker 1: where finally they had to come into Jesus moment and
Speaker 1: change some of these things. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: really what we need here, is for us to have
Speaker 1: these conversations and sometimes we're going to disagree on them,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, this gives us an idea
Speaker 1: because we are an important part of it, because we're
Speaker 1: the ones being policed.