WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:06.559 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio. 2 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:11.359 Well, welcome back everyone, Thanks very much Dan Watkins. As 3 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.039 we move into the nine o'clock hour, and I will 4 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.199 in for me that this hour we are going to 5 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:22.239 talk about the Karen Reid trial. Now, all that is 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:26.199 left the closing arguments tomorrow to be made by both 7 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.719 the defense and the prosecution. Each of them are supposed 8 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:32.079 to get about an hour and fifteen minutes to wrap 9 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:35.039 up their case, and then the case will go to 10 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:39.240 the jury. The jury will get their instructions from the judge. 11 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:44.520 And apparently, according to reports I saw tonight, the jury 12 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:50.479 might actually be allowed to begin some deliberations tomorrow and 13 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:52.119 could stay as late as till five point thirty. The 14 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:57.000 jury was not in court today, and it's conceivable, it's 15 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:01.200 conceivable that the jury could request to in on Saturday, 16 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:05.719 two days from now, to continue their deliberations. This has 17 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:10.519 been an ordeal for a lot of people, the defense lawyers, 18 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:15.640 certainly the defendant herself, family members, O'Keefe family members, as 19 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.680 well as the family of friends of Karen Reid, and 20 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:24.799 with us is Boston criminal defense attorney. Veteran criminal defense 21 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:29.200 attorney Phil Tracy, who not only followed the first reed 22 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:31.799 trial which ended up with that hung jury and all 23 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:34.799 the controversy about whether they were truly hung on all 24 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.319 three of the charges that she's facing, he now has 25 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:41.000 followed this trial very close. He will make it clear Fiel, 26 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.480 that you haven't been in court. You actually are very 27 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:46.680 active practicing criminal defense attorney. But you've done as best 28 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:50.280 you could for us to follow this trial. And let's 29 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.959 start off by first of all saying are you glad 30 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.959 we have finally reached this point where it's almost over. 31 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.280 Oh, I think there's a fatigue out of public opinion 32 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:06.439 has really had it with this case. And you know 33 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.919 there's a lot to it that is different from the 34 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:16.680 first case. They brought in the prosecutor Special prosecutor Brennan 35 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.800 now Adam Lallely who tied the first case, was right 36 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:26.080 by his side and assisting him in helping him because 37 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:30.039 he had the first case, Adam Lallely, So they added 38 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:36.240 more high power to it. Looked as if there was 39 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:40.520 at turning name Alefi who has come into the pray 40 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:47.840 with with the with the Jackson attorney and David Yannetti, 41 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.319 the very original attorney on the case, so otheran it's 42 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:58.199 it's a pretty pretty different approach this time around. It 43 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:03.439 looks as if the defence is not trying to prop 44 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.159 up the argument that they use in the first that 45 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:13.199 he was assaulted, beaten up in the in the house 46 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:16.159 and then dropped out on the lawn. I don't think 47 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:20.240 after looking at it so many times, I don't think 48 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:24.159 a lot of people think that really did happen that way. 49 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.400 Now comes down to the question of whether or not 50 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:36.039 she backed up the vehicle into them, into the deceased O'Keefe, 51 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.240 or she did it accidentally or on purpose. So that's 52 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.680 the high pot. That's the well. 53 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:48.159 If it's on purpose, they theoretical could get it for 54 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:52.599 a second degree murder. If it's accidental, then she's got 55 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:58.800 a potential manslaughter conviction. That's right, So it's high here 56 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:01.680 for her. Let me ask you this, Phil if I can. 57 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.680 You've watched the presentation. Obviously the players have changed a 58 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.840 little bit. There's also I think has added to her 59 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.280 the red defense team. A woman who was an alternate 60 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:15.199 juror happens to be a lawyer, but she was an 61 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:19.040 alternate juror in the first case, and now she hasn't 62 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.519 played a primary role here, but she's been in court, 63 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:27.480 sitting at the defense table with Karen Reid and her team. 64 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.000 Do you think the prosecution, let's deal with the prosecution first, 65 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.000 then we'll deal with the defense. Do you think the 66 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:39.879 prosecution of this case from your perspective from what you've seen. 67 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.279 You're not a jury, you're not predicting the results of 68 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:44.439 what the jury will do. But do you think the 69 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.879 prosecution has put in a stronger or a weaker case 70 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:50.120 or is it about the same. 71 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:54.800 Well, I think it's hard to determine because you can't 72 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.319 remember every detail from the first case. But I do 73 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:03.399 think that they did a very good job of condensing 74 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:05.680 a lot of the evidence so that you could just 75 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:14.720 say basically the drinking part of it that she participated in. 76 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.639 That then led to they were in two bars. Then 77 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.600 there was a blinding snowstorm. They drive to this house. 78 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:26.959 I think they were trying to go for something like this. 79 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.480 They had an augment or with him outside, maybe he 80 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:35.600 wanted to go in and she didn't, And then the 81 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:39.399 vehicle went in reverse twenty four miles an hour. Now, 82 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:44.720 that is an absolute speeding at ninety miles an hour, 83 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:49.439 going forward. That's in a snowstorm. So, I mean, I 84 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.199 think they were trying to say, why would she drive 85 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:58.240 in reverse twenty four miles an hour And when she 86 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.920 woke up after a lot of drinks at five in 87 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:05.519 the morning, she go right back to the exact spot 88 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.800 where he was, not the driveway, but way over to 89 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.399 the left by a hydrant or a flag pole. So 90 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.720 those they kind of indicate that, you know, she knew 91 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.839 what happened, and she knew she went right back. Now, 92 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:24.639 the X factor here is besides them. In the first case, 93 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.079 they were saying I hit him, I hit him, I 94 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.319 must have hit him. Now they have her on tape 95 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:37.759 saying I might have clipped him. Now clip is a 96 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:42.680 very interesting word in this case. I might have clipped him. So, 97 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.639 you know, the decision for her to go public with 98 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:51.120 so many venues may have been a bad decision because 99 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.480 the prosecution turned that around on her. 100 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:59.240 Well, those I mean those video tapes, those videotapes were 101 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.399 made after the first trial, the interviews she consented to. 102 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.079 I kind of understand why her lawyers allowed her to 103 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:09.480 do that, knowing that the case can't be I mean, 104 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.879 it's it's we'd love to find out the story there, 105 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:18.120 and I think that puts her in the most serious 106 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:22.319 jeopardy because she did not come across And again I 107 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:24.759 didn't watch all of them, I didn't watch them frame 108 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.480 by frame, but I don't think she came across as 109 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.680 someone who was particularly a sympathetic character. And that might 110 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:37.040 that those those videotapes that she that she consented to, 111 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:42.160 that she did voluntarily might be her her downfall. 112 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:47.319 Now me and you know, she does not appear to 113 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:53.000 be a very sympathetic person, a person that the public 114 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.439 has come behind or some people. But a lot of 115 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.519 people are saying, why if you went on TV, wouldn't 116 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:04.759 you say he was the love of my life? He's dead. 117 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.439 I didn't do it, And I feel so bad for 118 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:13.120 his mother and the two nephews nieces or that he adopted. 119 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.839 He was, you know, he she should have pointed him 120 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.560 out as a great guy. Now, of course, at the 121 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.600 end of this, surrounding this so harboring over is the 122 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.959 fact that their relationship was teetering, uh and maybe was 123 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.079 going to go into a breakup. 124 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.919 But that I don't think I think that I don't 125 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.440 think Phil, I don't think that would that easily could 126 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.600 have been explained. And a lot of people are in 127 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:44.480 a relationship, a lot of people in a marriage and 128 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.879 and and an ensign divorce, so the relationship breaks up, 129 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.360 and they only had good things to say about the 130 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.799 other person, which is, you know, it was much more 131 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:57.440 my fault than hers or whatever, that I should have 132 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.320 been more attentive or whatever. Uh, and wish her the best. 133 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.720 There was none of that, at least for what was reported. Phil, 134 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:07.039 I want to take a break and we come back. 135 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:10.159 I want to talk about your opinion of how we 136 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.919 talked about how the prosecution did what strategies, because the 137 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.120 defense strategy changed a little bit as well. 138 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:16.480 Uh. 139 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.159 And do you think that the defense was as effective 140 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.759 or more effective? I mean, it's conceivable that you could 141 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.320 conclude that both the prosecution with the second bite at 142 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:27.679 the apple and the defense with a second bite of 143 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:31.720 the apple did a did a cleaner, better job. But 144 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.320 we'll we'll get your reaction to how the defense handled 145 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.200 the second trial if you like to join the conversation. 146 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.159 We have only some lines at six one seven, nine 147 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.200 to three one ten thirty six one seven nine three 148 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:49.159 one ten thirty Uh. The other the six one seven, two, 149 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.720 five four to ten thirty a full We'll get to 150 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.679 those callers, but feel free six one seven, nine three one, 151 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:59.159 ten thirty. And again you at this point you can 152 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:03.320 you can offer your your predictions. I'm not asking Phil 153 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:06.799 Tracy because as a lawyer I have too much respect 154 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.600 for him as a lawyer to put him in that spot. 155 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.120 Because no one knows what goes on in the jury room, 156 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:14.799 just as no one really knows what goes on in 157 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:17.759 a marriage or in a relationship. Back on Nightside if 158 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:19.960 you like to join the only two lines open right now, 159 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:23.720 six seven, nine thirty, A word to the wise. Back 160 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:24.679 on Nightside after this. 161 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.919 You're on night Side with Dan Ray on Bzy Boston's 162 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:31.600 news radio. 163 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.759 My guest is Phil Tracy, longtime criminal defense attorney, talking 164 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.320 about the Karen retrial. The defense has rested, the prosecution 165 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.080 has rested. Tomorrow closing arguments. There will be instructions to 166 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.600 the jury, and there could be some deliberations tomorrow, and 167 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.759 there could even be some deliberations should the jury choose 168 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:53.519 and the judge allowed on Saturday. We'll see how that 169 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.279 plays out. The jury was off today, so they're going 170 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.600 in tomorrow relatively fresh off off a day off. Phil 171 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.000 so we talked about the prosecution, and I think we 172 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.240 both feel that the prose, at least I feel the 173 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:10.000 prosecution did a cleaner presentation. They had some hiccups, but 174 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.679 I think that they did a cleaner presentation in trial 175 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.320 number two as I would expect them to. Are you 176 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:16.080 with me on that? 177 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:22.519 Agreed completely? I agreed completely? Yes, you're definitely. 178 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.240 Your thoughts on the defense. The defense was able to 179 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.519 basically get a mistrial, which would in normal circumstances, is 180 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:36.559 in a case like this be considered a victory for 181 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:40.879 the defense. How did they do the second time? How 182 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:41.639 did the defense time? 183 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.039 Well, I think they, as you said, they added some 184 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:49.559 players to try and I think spread it out a 185 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:57.080 little bit and take it the spotlight off of attorney Jackson. Now, 186 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.120 of course, in the first case, he dominated defense posture. 187 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.879 In this case they used another attorney, Alessi, and you 188 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:10.960 saw him on TV and he was pounding the table 189 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.240 looking for miss trials, and so, in other words, they 190 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.879 came a little more aggressive. Now, the other thing is 191 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:23.480 the last thing the jury heard after such a long 192 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:29.200 trial is the expert witnesses for the defense trying to 193 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:35.240 debunk the prosecution's expert witnesses and that is the last 194 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.720 thing they heard, and sometimes that can be impactful on 195 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:47.480 a jury. On the other hand, they know that this 196 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:54.799 young man, this young police officer, is dead because something 197 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:59.519 happened over on the street, and so what is the 198 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:05.960 possible explanation other than she hit him with a cot 199 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.480 either accidentally or on praise. They don't think it's on purpose, 200 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.159 but it sure looks like it was accidental. But I mean, 201 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.200 it was one of those things when she went on 202 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.399 and said I might have clipped them. That's dangerous for sure. 203 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:26.679 And that is that's that's part of the prosecutions ammunition, 204 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.799 which they didn't have at the first trial. So putting 205 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.679 aside the prosecution, the case they put in, which we 206 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.759 agree is better was the defense normally in a second 207 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:38.320 bite at the apple, the defense is going to be 208 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.799 able to clean up a lot of problems given the 209 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:45.519 fact that they had to deal with these out of 210 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.600 court audio clips of video clips, which they had no 211 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.399 I mean, once they were done, they were done and 212 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.240 they were in play, would you say the defense had 213 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.639 had it? They have. They have tightened their case up 214 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:00.759 a little here they have. 215 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.200 I think they did, and what they did, I think 216 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:13.120 well was prepare their witnesses, their expert witnesses for a 217 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:21.080 wrestling cross examination by Prosecutor Burnett. And so those witnesses 218 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:27.240 held up fairly well under that cross examination. But I 219 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:35.200 still think that part of the renewed prosecution case were 220 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.440 the tapes of her talking to media and that sort 221 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:44.600 of thing. Also, Harold has put her picture on their 222 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.679 front page day after day. She doesn't looked like somebody 223 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:53.600 who is really upset about this situation. It's almost like 224 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:58.000 she's looking at her fifteen minutes of fame. And that's 225 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.279 disturbing to me. And if I was a your I 226 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:04.960 would be saying, now, missus O'Keefe is right behind her, 227 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:11.360 only ten to fifteen feet away. They haven't been anything 228 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:15.759 that has come out of the except for the civil suit, 229 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.720 and very much like the old O J case, he 230 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:23.879 was acquitted, but then he was found libel for the 231 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.399 murder of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. 232 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.480 Well, we will across a lot that's. 233 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.360 Yet to come. Now, let's tell. 234 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.679 We cross that bridge when we come to it. Phil 235 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.200 Tracy talking about the Karen Read case. The other thing 236 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.559 which I want you to come in quickly on as 237 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:49.360 a veteran criminal defense attorney. The final word to the 238 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.919 jury will be from the prosecution. The defense will go 239 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:59.320 first tomorrow and the prosecution we will have the final 240 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.879 attention they reach getting supposed to be an hour and 241 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.399 a half ninety minutes in a case like this, Will 242 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.039 that make a difference? You were talking about those costs. 243 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:15.960 Oh, that's the and it's extremely hard to marshal the 244 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.840 facts of a case this long. In other words, you know, 245 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.559 I've been trying cases for fifty years, and the idea 246 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.679 is this, when you have a case that goes for 247 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.960 a day or two, I mean, that's that's something that 248 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.320 you can marshal the facts into an argument. On the 249 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.320 other hand, this type of case with multiple witnesses and 250 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:42.879 multiple videos and multiple looks at the vehicle and that 251 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:48.000 sort of thing. So you know, that's that's hard to 252 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.679 put that into You've got to really prepare and I 253 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.679 hope both sides do a good job, but you know, 254 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.559 you can miss something easily in the closing argument, then 255 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.320 the judge of course will give in fructions on the law. Now, 256 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:05.559 one of the complaints from the first case was that 257 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.839 the judge did not put the verdict slip in a 258 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.680 comprehensible way for the jurors who allay people did not lawyers, 259 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.160 so that that is going to be scrutinized from all 260 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.640 sides and objective. 261 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:26.200 That objection was raised by Jackson before the jury started 262 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.200 to deliberate, so he and he was sort of dismissed. 263 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.160 It was the idea of, well, you're a California lawyer, 264 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.599 you don't know how we do things here in Massachusetts. 265 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.079 And as it turned out, he was right. There was 266 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.200 a lot of confusion with that jury, which ended up 267 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.680 with all of those sed cases, double jeopardy, et cetera. 268 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.799 And I think from what I've read, I don't know 269 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.559 that she's going to be particularly open to changing the 270 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:57.160 presentation of the verdict slip slip or her instructions. 271 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:01.960 I think one thing she will always or she will 272 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.200 certainly say, have you reached a verdict on any of 273 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:12.400 the charges? Now? If you have not, tell me if so. 274 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.079 That was the confusion the last time they were still 275 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.680 interested in They said we're in a deadlock, but they 276 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:26.000 didn't say that we we've agreed to find her not 277 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.839 guilty on a couple of the charges. 278 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:34.720 Well she should have. She should have said, in my opinion. 279 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.839 You're telling me, I assume that you're deadlocked on all 280 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.359 three counts. And if they said, yes, we're deadlocked on 281 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.279 all three counts, she's covered. Never asked that question, Yeah, 282 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.720 and the course did not want to did not want 283 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.160 to chastise her or even say that going forward, which 284 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.319 which was interesting. I think judges kind of closed ranks 285 00:18:58.359 --> 00:18:58.960 behind her. 286 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.680 In my opinion, Yes, there's no question about that, and I. 287 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.480 Didn't want to even ask you that because you're going 288 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:07.359 to be a friend of some of those judges. Go ahead, 289 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:07.880 I'm sorry. 290 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.119 Oh well, but let me say this one last thing. 291 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.960 I want to say. It is a rule process for 292 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:19.480 the judge, for the lawyers, for the clerks, for the 293 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.079 for the court officers. It's a trial like this is 294 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:32.559 tremendously difficult. You know, you get worn out, and I think, 295 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.119 like I say, there's there's fatigue for the whole case 296 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.319 among the court of bubble opinion. 297 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.640 All right, my guest is Phil Tracy. Well, we'll get 298 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.440 to yet. If you have a question for Phil, or 299 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.759 you want to express a point of view, Phil, stick 300 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.680 with us. Normally I'll let you go at this point, 301 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.480 but i'll screen the questions. I'll decide if the questions 302 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.119 are relevant and all of that. So don't worry about that. Okay, 303 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.839 there may be questions that that I have not been 304 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.319 smart enough enough to ask in my audience will ask 305 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.519 them for It's the only lines that are opened. Six one, seven, 306 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.119 nine thirty. Coming right back on Night's Side. 307 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:15.319 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 308 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:17.960 All right, we're gonna go to the phones. Let me 309 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.039 go first off to Justin in Marlborough. Justin, you were 310 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.839 first tonight on talking about the Karen Reid trial. I'm 311 00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:27.960 gonna go to the jury tomorrow. You're all with at journey, 312 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.680 Phil Tracy, go ahead, Justin, Thank. 313 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.400 You for taking my call. I have two points I 314 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:39.400 want to say. Three independent medical diaminers were adamant that 315 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.119 John o'keef was not hit by a Karen and AKA 316 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.240 did not hit John o'keith, and that it was likely 317 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:50.640 he might have been punching the face. And two biomechanical 318 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.039 engineers with PhDs said the same thing. 319 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:58.759 And also, so we're justin, let me ask you this. 320 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.039 You can you can you phrase this in the form 321 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.640 of a question for my expert here. I want to 322 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.119 make sure that Phil is involved in our conversation. 323 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:13.519 Okay, sure, why does the toney Tracy is adamant that 324 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.720 the Perton got hit by a car. Well, it looks 325 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.279 more likely he got hit in the face with a punch. 326 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.319 Okay, let's let's let me. Let's let let's let Fiel 327 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:24.519 addressed that I'm not sure he said what you think 328 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.839 you heard. He said, say, but go ahead, Phil, Well. 329 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.960 Let me just say this that the experts on both 330 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:37.880 sides are paid experts, paid to evaluate and give an 331 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:43.039 opinion that the prosecution and the defense want heard by 332 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.240 the jury. Now in some cases those they cross each 333 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:53.559 other out because the commonwealths experts are saying that it 334 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:58.720 was consistent with a clipping that we're using that word again, 335 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:05.359 clipping of O'Keefe. The other people say for the defense 336 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.240 that those and this is a very good point for 337 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:14.079 the defense, that there weren't any other broken bones. So 338 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:20.240 the kamwealth says he was hit and fell back and 339 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:26.160 hit his head. The defense says those he would have 340 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:30.640 had broken bones if that was the case. So I mean, 341 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.400 that's for the jury to decide. They can weigh the 342 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:41.319 evidence of the experts, and they can disbelieve or believe them, 343 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:46.000 but I think they kind of cross each other out, 344 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.480 and then the juries left with what are the real 345 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:49.720 facts here? 346 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.880 The other thing Justin to remember is that the experts 347 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:58.000 who are presented, either the prosecution or the defense, has 348 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:03.599 to lay a foundation to qualify them as witnesses expert witnesses. 349 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.400 They're not witnesses who are on the scene of a 350 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:11.000 crime and they're asking about their observations. They're asking about 351 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:16.279 their expertise. Now, I think that there are generally a 352 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:18.359 lot of experts who can look at something like this 353 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.200 as Phil says and arrive at a different conclusion. But 354 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.119 they have to You just kind of pull some guy 355 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:27.559 off the street and say, hey, this guy's name is 356 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.240 Harry Bananas. He's got no background, but he's my expert witness. 357 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:35.440 They have to qualify them. So the jury listens to 358 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:39.680 both both sets of experts, or both experts who sometimes 359 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:43.279 are in conflict. Is what It's important to understand that. 360 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:48.839 But the medical I'm from Massachusetts is for the Commonwealth, 361 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:54.279 and she said he was not hit by Again. 362 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.279 I think what you do in justin, I think you're 363 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.519 listening and you're putting it. You believe she's innocent. Okay, 364 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.240 you believe she's not guilty. I get that, no problem. 365 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.279 But what I'm saying is the Commonwealth Examiner was the 366 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.640 witness for the Commonwealth, not for the defense, and she 367 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:14.400 spoke on she was the witness for the common weapons 368 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.200 and she didn't get. 369 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.720 Well in that case. Then then if you're right here, Justin, 370 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:19.920 the jury's going to come back with it with a 371 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:23.200 not guilty in about twenty five minutes. So let's see 372 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.720 what happens. 373 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.960 I don't believe that. 374 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.319 It's what did you say? 375 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:29.640 I don't. 376 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.319 Yeah, I know I know what Justin. You said something 377 00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:34.920 I spoke over you. What was that? 378 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.240 Yeah, I'm sorry, I just wanted to correct you. They 379 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.480 were allotted seventy five minutes. 380 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:42.920 That's what I think. I said, an hour and a quarter. 381 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.559 You said ninety. You said, well fine, I know, I 382 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:48.119 just wanted to say that seventy five minutes. 383 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.720 Yeah, thanks, Justin, appreciate you. Quch All right, thank you. 384 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:53.400 Let me go to Joe and Belmont. Joe, you're next 385 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.400 on nights. I got a question or comment for Phil Tracy. Please, Joe, 386 00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:56.920 go right ahead. 387 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:00.559 Dan. I want to tell you and the lawyer why 388 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.400 I think she's innocent. The man slaughter. 389 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:05.880 Well, I wish you'd ask him a question, Joe, to 390 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:09.359 be honest with you, because he's got some experience in this, 391 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.359 in this practice of the law. He's been in the 392 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:15.240 criminal defense attorney for almost a half a century and 393 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.400 has handled capital cases like that. If you got a question, 394 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.799 that'd be great if you want to tell him why 395 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:22.880 you think she's innocent, and he can do it in 396 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:24.079 about a minute, Go right ahead. 397 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:29.000 Oh, yes, you had a caller about three or four 398 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.000 weeks ago, a woman and she said there was just 399 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:37.559 too many coincidences that happens that she was innocent. Now, 400 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.240 when coincidence happened too many of them, things are very 401 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.039