WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.919 This is Michael Connolly and you are listening to Killer 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.599 in the Code Solving the Black Dahia and Zodiac Cases. 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:13.640 This is chapter nine. Today we are going to talk 4 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.480 to author William Mann, who has a new book out 5 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:22.120 about the Black Dahlia case. But before we get to that, 6 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:25.239 I want to give a quick update on our investigation. 7 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:31.079 As you must know by now, our suspect in the 8 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:35.119 Zodiac killings and the gruesome torture and murder of Elizabeth 9 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:40.119 Short is Marvin Margolis, also known as Marvin Merrill, also 10 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:44.560 known as Marty Merrill, among several other names. A key 11 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:48.240 piece of evidence uncovered in the investigation headed by Citizens 12 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.479 Salute Alex Baber is the so called Elizabeth sketch that 13 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.679 was created and signed by Marty Merrill in nineteen ninety two, 14 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.799 at a time he was dying of cancer. The sketches 15 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.439 of a young, dark haired woman and his titled Elizabeth. 16 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.560 She is nude, and the sketch depicts her from the 17 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:13.719 waist up hereily mirroring the bisection of Elizabeth Short. There 18 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:17.120 are also contour lines on the body that also mirror 19 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.840 some of the injuries sustained by Short. In the shading 20 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:26.120 Surrounding the figure, Baber found a hidden word zodiac. The 21 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.799 sketch was framed under glass by Meryl's son and turned 22 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.040 over to the Baby Team, along with three boxes of 23 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:38.239 documents and other property inherited after his father's death in 24 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:43.000 nineteen ninety three. We can now reveal something else hidden 25 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:46.200 in the Elizabeth sketch, but first the story of how 26 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:50.280 it was found. All the property turned over by Meryl's 27 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:54.879 son was cataloged by veteran homicide detectives Rick Jackson and 28 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:59.680 Missy Roberts, both longtime cold case detectives formerly with the 29 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:04.359 Lost Angeles Police Department. Dozens and dozens of documents and 30 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:08.000 other items were listed on the inventory and a receipt 31 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.360 given to the sun. This was because it was all 32 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.479 on loan from the son, who was hopeful that the 33 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:18.439 material might be used to disprove his father's connection to 34 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.199 two of the most infamous unsolved crimes in American history. 35 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:26.560 While several items in the inventory tended to support Merrill 36 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.680 as the suspect, the sketch was perhaps the most convincing. 37 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.719 Jackson called it a deathbed confession, and though late in 38 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.560 his life Merrill knew another person whose middle name was Elizabeth. 39 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:41.680 The Baber team confirmed she was much older and her 40 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:46.199 physical descriptors were far different from both Elizabeth Short and 41 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.360 the Elizabeth in the sketch. It came time last week 42 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.599 to return Merrill's property to his son, as was promised, 43 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.479 but before it was delivered, a forensic photographer was brought 44 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:03.840 in to document every item we had received. Thousands of 45 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.360 photos were taken, and when it came time to shooting 46 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.120 the sketch, it was removed from beneath the glass of 47 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:14.879 its frame so it could be photographed without reflection. Sometimes 48 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.240 a photo can pick up what cannot easily be noticed 49 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:21.960 by the naked eye. I'll let Rick Jackson describe what 50 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:26.199 was seen and captured through the macro lens of the camera. 51 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:32.639 We took the glass off of the sketch and there 52 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:38.000 was an indentation that extended from the left edge of 53 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.680 the mouth, curled upwards. It was probably a quarter of 54 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.960 an inch or three eighths of an inch, which you know, 55 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.080 a significant win. 56 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:51.840 It's a small sketch that were curled upward toward the ear, 57 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.919 much like the Dahlia's body was found with the curled 58 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.680 insized wound all the way up, kind of toward her 59 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:05.879 tempt on both sides. The right side of the sketch's 60 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:10.560 mouth is covered with the hair, so you see nothing there, 61 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.599 but it was definitely an indentation that extended from that 62 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:17.240 side of the mouth. You can really see it under 63 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:23.120 the macro lens, especially with the peripheral lighting from the side. Yeah, 64 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.519 so it was intentional that. It was like almost like 65 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:32.800 somebody had taken maybe a dull nail and extended the 66 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.759 mouth a little bit right from the corner. The indentation 67 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:40.560 is definitely there. It looks like a shorter version of 68 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.639 the incised wounds that went from both sides of Elizabeth 69 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:49.759 Short's mouth by the killer. It was deliberately set right there, 70 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.199 there's no doubt about it. It matches right in line 71 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:55.560 with the curled smile. It's very very clear. 72 00:04:56.839 --> 00:04:59.279 You can see the photo taken during the process we 73 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.800 are talking about out here under episode nine on our 74 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:07.920 website at killerndecode dot com. It is known as a 75 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:12.480 Glasgow smile as it was a torture originated with criminal 76 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:17.439 gangs in Glasgow, Scotland in the nineteen twenties. According to 77 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:21.199 her autopsy report, Elizabeth Short was cut in such a 78 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:25.879 way while she was still alive. How Its Baber believes 79 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.240 the indentation seen on the Elizabeth sketch leaves no doubt 80 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.319 about who the subject of the sketches. 81 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:37.519 I don't think that we have any other conclusion everything 82 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.800 the fact that it is Elizabeth Short. This means that 83 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:43.639 the sketch is what we thought it was. It's a 84 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:48.120 representation of Elizabeth Short's last moments. So I think at 85 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:52.279 this point nobody can can challenge us on what the 86 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:53.839 sketch represents. 87 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:57.759 And now that the line of indentation on the sketch 88 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:02.040 subject's mouth has been seen, we realized it was there 89 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:06.120 and even noticeable all along. Back in December, we posted 90 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.079 a photo of the sketch on the website along with 91 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:13.639 other extras relating to episode two. The photo was taken 92 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.000 before the sketch was ever taken out of glass and examined. 93 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.199 And yet there is the line of indentation stretching from 94 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:25.279 the corner of the mouth, but wasn't noticed then is 95 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:33.839 clearly seen now the Glasgow smile. Okay, so let's move on. 96 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.360 I am joined now by William J. Mann, who is 97 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:41.839 on the road promoting his new book, Black Dahlia Murder. 98 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:47.160 Monsters and madness in mid century Hollywood. I'm not a 99 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.319 professional critic, but I am a reader and a professional writer. 100 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.279 And my one word take when William's book is riveting. 101 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:58.560 Maybe it's because these days I'm steeped in everything and 102 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.480 anything Black Dahia. I ended up losing a night's sleep 103 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.120 on this book. I'm more of an audiobook guy because 104 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.560 I can be writing when most people can be reading. 105 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:11.240 So I started listening to this book a couple fridays 106 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.480 ago when I went to bed with the plan of reading, 107 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.240 listening to a few chapters, and then turning it off. 108 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:20.959 But I never turned it off. I just had to 109 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.040 go through the night listening to it. I finished it 110 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:31.839 the following Saturday afternoon. It's exhaustedly researched, well written, and 111 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.759 it's elevated. And by that I mean it takes this 112 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.519 awful crime that we're going to talk about here and 113 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.480 puts it in the context of that time in our history. 114 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.759 You know, a country emerging victoriously from a world war 115 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.120 and a city on the cusp of tremendous expansion, and 116 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.079 this is the lands through which William sees this young 117 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.399 woman's life. I also have to say that William quite 118 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.160 methodically and carefully goes through the many suspects in the 119 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.720 killing them is be short and convincingly knocks them down 120 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:06.079 one by one until he reaches who he calls the 121 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:10.319 last man standing. And we'll get to him that man 122 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:16.040 in the course of our conversation. So thanks for joining William. 123 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:20.040 You've told me that you didn't set out to find 124 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:22.600 the killer in this story, that you wanted to find 125 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.920 the victim, Elizabeth Short, So I want you to kind 126 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:28.519 of get me off the hook here. I will be 127 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:30.639 the first to admit that on this podcast we have 128 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:35.759 not paid enough attention to Elizabeth the victim, but luckily 129 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:38.360 you have. You made a deep dive into her short 130 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:43.360 life and times you say she had wanderlust. I would 131 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.600 like to start with that. Tell us what Elizabeth wanderlust, 132 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:49.840 tell us about it and what she was looking for 133 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.440 before she met her untimely and horrible end. 134 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.960 Well, I think I'm not sure she even knew what 135 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.840 she was looking for necessarily, but she was not content 136 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:06.519 to stay in her small town, New England suburb of Boston. 137 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.519 That was not what she wanted. She didn't want to 138 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.679 be her sisters who got married or one of them 139 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.320 went off to the into the service. Her mother had 140 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:20.000 spent all her life really raising four daughters. Her husband 141 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.559 had abandoned the family when Elizabeth was six, and Elizabeth 142 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:28.879 was fired with some curiosity to see places beyond that 143 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.399 small town. She was a sickly child for a while. 144 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:38.240 She'd been suffering from pleurisy. She'd had an operation for that, 145 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.200 and she had asthma that caused the cold weather to 146 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.200 really affect her. So her mother had agreed to let 147 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.720 her go for part of the winters down to Florida. 148 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:50.039 So she got used to traveling and spending time on 149 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.759 her own, and she liked that. She really felt that 150 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.440 I can find the world, you know, I can make 151 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.759 my own decisions, and she wanted more of that. So 152 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.159 in nineteen in the summer of nineteen forty six, she 153 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:10.279 gets an offer to meet a boyfriend. Wasn't serious, but 154 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.720 she told her mother it was and meet him in 155 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.120 Long Beach. He was stationed there. He was in the Army, 156 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.200 And so she takes a bus ride across the country, 157 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.840 stopping first in Indianapolis and then Chicago. Because you know, 158 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.840 at wanderlust, she wants to see places, she wants to 159 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.200 meet people, and then finally arrives in Long Beach. And 160 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.600 I think what she was looking for was adventure, new ideas, 161 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.759 new places, new people. Her father had left the family 162 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:41.240 when she was so young that she had very little 163 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:44.600 memory of him, but to her he seemed like, you know, 164 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:47.639 he was this adventurer there he's out seeing the world, 165 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:49.799 and she wanted to be like him. And she had 166 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:53.000 gone to see him at one point at an earlier time. 167 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.600 It went badly he rejected her for a second time. 168 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:03.159 So possibly in hers she was looking for some affirmation, 169 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.320 maybe some sense of her father, you know, maybe some 170 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:13.399 you know, male approval, because she did she did like 171 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.919 to make friends with older men, though she was very 172 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.440 puritanical in a way. But so long answer to say, 173 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.320 I'm not sure she knew what she was looking for, 174 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.559 but she was definitely looking for something and that wasn't 175 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.039 to be found in her small town. 176 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:34.639 In the context of that time. Wasn't this a real 177 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.200 transformative time and country, especially for women. You know, they 178 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:42.480 had been called out of the homes to kind of 179 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:44.919 keep the country running while most of the men were 180 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:49.159 off at war, right, and then it was the war's over, 181 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.559 and it's like, you can't go back to being normal, right. 182 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.159 Yeah, I mean, you know, you can't see Elizabeth's story 183 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.759 without understanding that context. This was a period when many 184 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.320 young women were not following the old rules of staying 185 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.080 at home, getting married, having children. They want to see 186 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:06.919 the world a little bit. 187 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:07.159 More. 188 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.720 Women, as you say, during the war had saved the 189 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.480 economy and they had gone into the factories, the offices 190 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.360 and really kept the country running while the men were away. 191 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:22.320 And then when the men came home, they were encouraged 192 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:25.559 to go back, put on an apron, have more babies. 193 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.360 And for some women that wasn't ever going to happen again. 194 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.960 They had tasted autonomy and they wanted more of it. 195 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.399 So Elizabeth was part of that movement. I'm not sure 196 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.159 she was actually consciously thinking in those terms, but she 197 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.799 was part of that movement of single women making lives 198 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:44.240 for themselves in the nation cities. 199 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:48.279 Yeah, we see that in our history. I think you 200 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.600 said she did a lot of CouchSurfing, but she also 201 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:57.440 did that with other women that were also exercising their autonomy. Yes. Absolutely, 202 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.120 You've already talked about the impact that her father's abandonment 203 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.120 had on her. She also did this thing that was 204 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:10.679 a pretty common thing during wartime. That is a wartime 205 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:16.639 romance where she actually got engaged to a man that 206 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.080 was in the military that she really didn't even know, 207 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:22.639 and that also ended with a big impact. Can you 208 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.480 talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Sure. 209 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.120 While she was in Florida, she met a one of 210 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.840 the heroes of the Flying Tigers. It was a unit 211 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:37.080 that was pretty independent, but it was President Roosevelt had 212 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.919 sanctioned it to go after and protect mainland China, and 213 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:45.679 so the Flying Tigers were a heroic group of people, 214 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.399 and Matt Gordon was the maverick of them. You know, 215 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.480 he was Tom Cruise. I mean, he was the guy 216 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.799 that flew the planes and was glamorous and handsome. And 217 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.759 Elizabeth met him one night. They had a lovely evening 218 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:00.960 and then he was flying out the next day and 219 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.000 he asked her if she would wait for him, and 220 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:06.519 she said yes. And you know, later on it would 221 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.120 be you know, seen as if this was this longtime, 222 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:10.039 great romance. 223 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:10.480 It was. 224 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.679 They met once. So that's important to point out that 225 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:17.440 his Matt's mother later revealed that, but that shouldn't necessarily 226 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.320 diminish the relationship. You know, they wrote to each other frequently, 227 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.240 and you know, Elizabeth's head was filled with all sorts 228 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.639 of you know, romantic notions, and he seems to have 229 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.759 liked her very much too, from the letters to his mother. Unfortunately, 230 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.759 Matt was killed in a in an accident. It wasn't 231 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.960 it wasn't in combat, but he was killed in an 232 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.919 accident shortly before he was planned to come home and 233 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.120 ask Elizabeth to marry him. He did have a ring 234 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:45.879 for her. It was sent to her by one of 235 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:50.559 his friends. And you know, she was she was surely crushed. 236 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:53.799 She was surely you know, bereffed by this. But part 237 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.559 of me wonders would she have really married him? You know, 238 00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:58.320 I don't think she was at a point where she 239 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.000 wanted to settle down quite yet. But who knows because 240 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.120 she never had the chance to make that decision. 241 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.440 Yeah, So she comes to La ends up becoming famous 242 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.879 in death, you know, for this horrible crime. I mean 243 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.720 so horrible. We're still talking about it, we're still writing 244 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.759 about it eighty years later, right, I guess I want 245 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:21.840 to get into that fame that came in the Moniker, 246 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:28.519 the Black Dahlia. It really took her in a false direction, 247 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:29.080 didn't it. 248 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.840 Yeah, you know, the Black Dahlia is so different, completely 249 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:37.279 different from Elizabeth Short. As as you know, the name 250 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:40.480 came only after the death. It was it was given 251 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:43.159 to her by the by the press, by the newspapers, 252 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.639 and you know, it was it was a name that 253 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.240 became the calling card for the case, and it conjured 254 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.679 up all sorts of ideas of the you know, the 255 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.440 sinister woman who walked by night in black sheer clothing 256 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.320 and you know, you know, making connections with dangerous men 257 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.080 and all of this. You know, it really layers itself 258 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.440 right into film noir, which is a genre that was 259 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:13.360 coming into existence just as Elizabeth was murdered. So you know, 260 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:19.919 she becomes this huge, uh you know, meme in some ways, 261 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:24.279 you know, in in in noir fiction and noir films, 262 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:28.240 and had very little to do with with Elizabeth Short. 263 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:32.919 She was she was rather puritanical. She loved to flirt, 264 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.080 but she rarely slept with a guy. She was she 265 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:38.879 was very good at getting a man to buy her 266 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.480 a hamburger while she's sitting at a lunch counter, because 267 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.440 she'd bat her eyes and say, well, I'm hungry. But 268 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.799 she she wasn't a sex worker, which is what the 269 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.120 myth would later make her out to be a sex 270 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:56.600 worker or you know, pornographic actress or you know, a 271 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.039 bit part player who wants to be famous, and all 272 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:00.879 of that. She was none of them. She was just 273 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.599 a young woman who was twenty two years old, let's remember, 274 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.480 and just going from place to place seeing what she 275 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:09.000 could find. 276 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.640 So the myth is largely built by the media, and 277 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.640 I think there was five or six newspapers in Los 278 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:24.160 Angeles at that time, a very heavily competitive market, and 279 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.759 it kind of to me, it kind of feels like 280 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.599 the media emerged as one of the villains in this 281 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.799 story because of what they did to her. 282 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.480 Yeah, I would agree that part of the blame for 283 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.960 the original detectives not being able to zero in and 284 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.720 a killer right away, I think was because of the 285 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.799 distractions the media was constantly throwing at them. The two 286 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.079 original detectives, Harry Hanson and Finest Brown, in my opinion, 287 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:54.680 were good detectives. They were doing their job. They knew 288 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.720 how to research these kinds of crimes, though this one 289 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.119 was obviously beyond anything they had seen up until that point, 290 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.400 but it was, you know, it was a way of 291 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.839 keeping the truth from coming out because in some ways, 292 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.000 the media didn't want the truth. They didn't want this 293 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.480 story to be over. It was selling a lot of 294 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:20.319 newspapers for them. Jimmy Richardson of the Los Angeles Examiner 295 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.680 said that the Dahlia case was selling more newspapers than 296 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:28.559 Pearl Harbor. So they made sure that there were column 297 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:33.160 inches available for the Dahlia case on every front page. 298 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.160 So every front page had some Dahlia news. And that's 299 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.839 not just the Examiner, it is also the Herald Express, 300 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.759 the Daily News, even the Times, though they were a 301 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.440 little more sober, but the Times also had that it 302 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.920 was on page two. And so if they didn't have 303 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.640 new Dallia news, they made stuff up. They literally made 304 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:56.160 stuff up. And so Harry Hanson and Finest Brown are obligated. 305 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.839 Captain Donahue would say, you know, go investigate this. Somebody's 306 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:02.400 just confessed over the Examiner, and they'd have to stop 307 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.680 what they were doing and go over and examine, you know, 308 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.599 the latest crazy confessor. So, yeah, the media is one 309 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.440 of the reasons why, and not just one of the reasons, 310 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.720 but one of the main reasons why the detectives were 311 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:16.880 unable to zero in on somebody early. 312 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.640 On, Yeah, the I think it was Brown, one of 313 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:23.119 those two guys, Brown or Handsome. And then they testified 314 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.880 to the grand jury in nineteen forty nine said they 315 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:29.279 had three hundred suspects. In total, they had something like 316 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:34.759 nineteen confessors. And so even when they whittled it down 317 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.359 to a list of twenty two, I mean, that is 318 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:42.000 a massive list in itself. Absolutely, it's no wonder stuff. 319 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.880 Things slipped through, and including the guy you call the 320 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:55.039 last man standing. So, yeah, you know, I guess you 321 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.680 kind of already answered this, but I was going to 322 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:01.799 say that it wasn't a a state of the art investigation, 323 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:06.759 wasn't really even a textbook investigation. The tark the department 324 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.440 had budget issues. Sometimes these detectives didn't even have a 325 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.839 car or they could use. But let's talk about that guy, 326 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:20.599 the last man standing, Marvin Margolis. He's the same suspect 327 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:25.920 that we've landed on in this podcast. You quite methodically 328 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.599 knocked down that list of twenty two prime suspects until 329 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.759 there was only Marvin Margolis left. Why didn't you knock 330 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.759 him off the list? 331 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:41.880 Well, because Margolis is the only suspect who contains both 332 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:49.559 qualities that the detectives speculated needed to be to determine 333 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.599 who this killer is. So he had both the how 334 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.720 and the why, which you know, if how plus why 335 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.720 equals who was one FBI equation that's used. And he 336 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.799 had how because he had been in the military and 337 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.559 he had served in a medical unit, so he assisted 338 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:13.640 in surgical procedures. And he had the the why, which 339 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:17.480 is the rationale or the motivation for killing. When he 340 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.480 was discharged, he had terrible PTSD and was discharged with 341 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.599 a fifty percent psychiatric disability, and the psychiatrist at the 342 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.839 time said, you know, he could be dangerous. He's a 343 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.720 you know, he's he didn't use these phrases, but you 344 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:36.119 know he was a loose cannon. And those two attributes 345 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.559 do not turn up in any of the other suspects. 346 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.920 He also has other circumstantial evidence that makes me say, 347 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.559 of all of them, he's the only one I can't 348 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.440 rule out. He's the only one who does not have 349 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:57.160 something in his story that just disqualifies him. And for 350 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.559 the earlier candidates, whether they be Mark Hanson or or 351 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.839 Carl Bausinger, they don't have the surgical ability. There's they 352 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:10.759 could not have conducted that that bisection. They couldn't. They 353 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:14.119 did not have the ability to do that. Somebody like 354 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.720 Ballsinger too was he was. He was a fraud fraudulent guy. 355 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.160 He was. He was rested several times. But at the 356 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.960 same time he didn't possess the rage of society that 357 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.519 is needed. He you know, he got away with stuff, 358 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.319 so he wasn't really raging against society. He got his 359 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.279 way against society. The same is true with Glenn Wolf 360 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:38.160 who was another suspect. They they might have been sociopaths, 361 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.920 but they weren't angry sociopaths. They they knew how to 362 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:46.079 get what they wanted from society without without being frustrated. 363 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:52.359 Marvin Margoliz was constantly frustrated. He was never given the 364 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.480 the the praise in when he was in the military. 365 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:58.359 He wanted more experience in the operating room, was always 366 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:00.839 denied that he was put into the far pharmacy instead 367 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:05.279 of the instead of the surgery centers. His father had 368 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.240 told him he was a would never make make any good. 369 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.119 That he was he was never going to be anything, 370 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.000 you know, from an early age, and then when he 371 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.880 goes to he enrolls at University of Southern California, he's 372 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:21.119 constantly dropping out of his classes. He can't hack it, 373 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.240 and his professors are telling him, you know, yeah, you 374 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.160 don't have it, you don't have what it takes. So 375 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.640 this is a guy with anger and resentment at the world, 376 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.039 plus has the surgical skills to do what was done 377 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:35.960 to Eldzabeth Short. I can't one hundred percent say he 378 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.160 was the killer, because we know there's records that haven't 379 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.759 been released, But he's the only one that I can't 380 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:44.440 rule out. And as you say, he is the last 381 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:46.240 man standing, and I think he was the last man 382 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:48.960 standing for the detectives at the time too. 383 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.559 There's a lot of people out there seems eliminated, and 384 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:58.039 I think he was initially, you know, and like that 385 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.039 was one of the things where they were overwhelmed and 386 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:05.680 they checked the box with him right right and moved on. 387 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.160 But your study of the records that are available, what 388 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:15.160 is the evolution of that of Marvin Margolis in terms 389 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.279 of whether he was eliminated and when and whether he 390 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:23.079 was then reinstated as a key suspect. 391 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:28.279 Yeah, he was early on, he was investigated, he was questioned, 392 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:30.519 and the other reason he was question was because his 393 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.799 roommate Bill Robinson, who had also lived with Elizabeth Short 394 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:41.200 and Marjorie Graham with with Marvin. He came forward and said, okay, 395 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:46.079 I know this girl. I lived with her. And they said, well, 396 00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.200 who else lived with you? And he said, Marvin Markgolis. 397 00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:52.839 We need to talk to him. And he said, well, 398 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.279 he doesn't want to come in. So he is then 399 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.160 forced to come in, apparently because he does speak with 400 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.319 Hanson and Brown and he has an alibi for that 401 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.839