WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:05.000 The Team House with your host Jack Murphy. 2 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:15.720 Hey, David Bark, Hey, everyone, this is episode three hundred 3 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:18.440 and seventy six of The Team House. I am Jack 4 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:21.559 Murphy here with tonight's guest Ivan Ingram. He is the 5 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.719 author of Once We Pledged Forever, which we're going to 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.960 talk to about tonight. We had him on the show 7 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.960 back on episode three hundred and forty two, talking about 8 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.079 his career in the Marine Corps, MARSK some other interesting assignments. 9 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:38.200 I hope you guys will go and check it out. 10 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.079 So Ivan, welcome back to the show. It is great 11 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:44.840 to be back, love, and we should point out tonight 12 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:50.240 we are smoking the nineteen sixty four anniversary edition of 13 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.359 the Padrones, in my opinions, is their best cigar. 14 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:56.280 This is the Maduro No. 15 00:00:56.240 --> 00:01:00.200 Complaints, paired with Diplomatico, a little bit of Vene Will 16 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:01.880 and rum. 17 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:04.439 It goes well, pairs well. 18 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.959 So, I mean, I'm not sure exactly where to pick 19 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:14.000 it up, but I read your book. I actually read 20 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.280 you know, obviously it's available in hardcover right now. I 21 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.640 read it on that dang Fangled kindle and it was 22 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:23.680 really good on there. I mean, people should check it out. 23 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:27.079 But the book is how would you describe it? 24 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:27.280 Like? 25 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:29.079 You know, you told me a little bit earlier that 26 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.799 it's kind of like defies the norms of any given genre. 27 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.879 And it's also like very autobiographical in many ways. 28 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:40.760 Right, it is, and it does or it does and 29 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:46.079 it is the book. It is available on Kindle, both 30 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:50.760 hard and soft cover, and then of course any platform 31 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:52.560 in which you publish it, someone's gonna want something more. 32 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.680 You know, is it audible, We haven't gotten there yet, 33 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.079 I know it. Is it available and polish? Yeah? Is 34 00:01:57.159 --> 00:01:59.959 it a movie? No, but we're looking for a black 35 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:07.799 so please. When I went to start pitching it, I 36 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:13.719 had a hard time conveying to potential agents just exactly 37 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.599 what it would would be. And they, because they very 38 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.000 much want to have something they can say, Okay, this 39 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.759 is a military thriller, this is a military action book. 40 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.960 It's a romance. So whatever it happens the genre they 41 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.479 want to be able to be in that pretty directly 42 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:35.439 or or exactly. So then when they go to talk 43 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:39.280 to publishers, they don't have any problems. Right, The book 44 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:47.080 itself covers quite a bunch of different tones. It is 45 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.879 indeed an action book to a military action book, but 46 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.919 there's also a book of redemption reconciliation. And as I 47 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:57.000 talked with my publisher and he read it, he's like, 48 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:58.680 you know, really, this book is a love story. It 49 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:02.759 is about not only the love of the main character, 50 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:05.759 Steve Keller, and his relationship to his family and his wife, 51 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:12.840 but also that's the same relationship and fraternity that he 52 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:17.159 has with his men, and sometimes how those two relationships 53 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:22.080 are at odds, at very big odds. So to your 54 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.719 question about autobiography, that is indeed how the book started 55 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:32.719 out more as a record for my family, just as 56 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.199 something for me to get down on paper and say, okay, 57 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.759 over the course of my career, this is what I did. 58 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:42.439 And is it a novel because you didn't want to 59 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:44.639 put people's real names in it, Well, there are some. 60 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.759 People with real names in there, but for very specific reasons, 61 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.080 a couple of reasons for that. As I talk to 62 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.400 more agents, people said, military memoirs do indeed sell, but 63 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:01.400 really to a niche crowd. Sure people were into kind 64 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.000 of what we like to read. What probably a large 65 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:08.080 number of the fans of this podcast and other military 66 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:13.280 based podcast they very much will enjoy the book. But 67 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.079 those one of the agents gave me a good piece 68 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:17.560 of advice and said, unless you've got a lot of 69 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.560 followers and people kind of know who you are, you're 70 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.879 like McRaven or Charles beckw With or something, you know what, 71 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.920 people who can immediately recognize your name, and you're going 72 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.199 to have a brand that comes along with it because 73 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:33.120 of that recognition. It'll just be a book that gets published. 74 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.879 And it's yet another one that's kind of on the 75 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.360 on the shelves about someone's military experience. And that is 76 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.000 not to diminish anybody who's published books in that in 77 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.480 that genre, in that vein, and there's some very good 78 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:50.079 ones out there. But the other thing is that as 79 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:53.360 I started talking with people, it's particularly my friend Scott Hughesing, 80 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.759 who wrote Echo and Ramadi and is actually is my 81 00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:01.600 agent now. He read the initial manuscript and said, if 82 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.680 you look at this from the perspective of writing it 83 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.920 as a fiction or a piece of fiction, you will 84 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:15.600 have a lot more latitude to actually explore the themes 85 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.040 that you want to look at in this book. And 86 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:20.800 I hadn't thought of it that way at all, And 87 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.120 of course it's very much I don't want to betray 88 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:26.360 my own authenticity in these people. And he's like, no, 89 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:28.439 not at all. Be you can still have all of that, 90 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.160 but you'll have a lot more. The aperture is going 91 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.319 to drive the point home exactly, and you'll be able 92 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.839 to kind of weave things together because, as I say 93 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.519 in the book, they all happen in some capacity. Not 94 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.439 all of them happened to me exactly, and you know, 95 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.360 as it's listed, but I could take those pieces and 96 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:51.519 then create the story right. And once I embraced that, 97 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:57.759 he was right and opened up a larger creative valve. 98 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:02.920 The only piece of any kind of media that I 99 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.240 would compare this book to as far as like what 100 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:07.480 you were able to achieve with it. And I mean 101 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.800 this as a compliment. Have you ever seen the play 102 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.360 Last Out, Scott Man's play? 103 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.560 I have seen it online. I've never seen it. Okay, Okay, 104 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:18.240 so you know what it's about. So Scott, Yeah, Scott 105 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:22.319 and I have been We've been in communication with each other. Yeah, 106 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.480 not since I wrote the book. So I like his 107 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:26.519 work a lot of respect, respect a lot of the 108 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:27.680 things that he's done. It's great. 109 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:29.920 I think that you know, your book kind of rose 110 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:32.800 to that level that you know, I really respected that 111 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.600 play that they put together because it's the first time 112 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:38.920 I had ever seen in any piece of media, book, movie, whatever, 113 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.360 TV show that really told like the story of a 114 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.959 Special Forces soldier kind of from the beginning literally to 115 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.879 the end, and all the like highs and lows and 116 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.040 everything in between, some of the darker things that happened 117 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:55.720 in the job, the difficult decisions, like your book is 118 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.959 in that same vein, except you did that for a 119 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.240 marsk Raider, and I really appreciated that about the. 120 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:10.000 Book, Thank you. The Tenor certainly is a heavy, heavy 121 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.000 book in my It's published by the Sager Group. Mike 122 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.839 Sager is my publisher, and he's been around in the 123 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:17.639 business for quite a while. He wrote for Esquire and 124 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.319 Rolling Stone. Actually hung out with Hunter S. Thompson. He's 125 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:24.240 interesting in his own vein because of that his own right. 126 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:27.000 But he gave me a lot of good steering. One 127 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.120 of the great things that he did not put any 128 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.120 limitations on the creative process. In fact, he said he 129 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:34.759 didn't want to change it. He really liked the story. 130 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.319 He said, we really made it unique was that it 131 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.040 did indeed come from a different perspective. It's not so 132 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:45.600 much a chest thumping oh rah book of just tales 133 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:50.879 of Let's go Boys adventure. It's more that the protagonist, 134 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.639 Steve Keller, is he wrestles with his decisions and he 135 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.160 has a lot of doubt. Some of the reviews so 136 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:00.439 far on Amazon, people say they really like it because 137 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.480 the character has a lot, All the characters have depth, 138 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.879 and they're not they're not not only not one dimensional, 139 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.439 but they're flawed. Yeah, and so people then are kind 140 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.160 of like, well, do I like this guy? Do I 141 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:18.199 do I support what he's saying? And it is meant 142 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:19.879 to make people think because there was a lot of 143 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.079 ambiguity obviously in combat and then the way I approached 144 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:27.160 it also is that it's sort of a nonlinear narrative 145 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.040 with a little bit of supernatural undertone. And that's what 146 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:34.440 I'm saying, so that the uh, these established agents were 147 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.639 just like what am I going to do with this? 148 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:37.840 Like how am I gonna sell this book? 149 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:43.039 So I mean I have to say we did interview 150 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.159 someone on this podcast who he was in such a 151 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:46.679 bad way. 152 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.480 He would talk about getting. 153 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.919 Drunk in his living room and having full blown conversations 154 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.799 with one of his teammates that have been killed. So, 155 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.320 which is the supernatural element in your book? I mean, 156 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.720 it's to me, did not ring is you know, supernatural? 157 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:06.679 It's actually something that some people have experienced, you know, 158 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:08.120 and when they're in a bad way. 159 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:12.720 I think so, and I think those the past has 160 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:19.399 an interesting way of reaching out at times, and you 161 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.759 don't always get to decide, at least for veterans, and 162 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.639 this could be anyone from doing with post traumatic when 163 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.639 it hits you. Sure you don't necessarily get to decide 164 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:32.240 when that happens. It's in the book. It's it's very clean, 165 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.759 if you will you know, well, the actual interactions between 166 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:40.919 the ghost and Keller are clean when when the conversations happened, 167 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.799 But when Keller first encounters him, there's just freak that 168 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.519 holy what what am I seeing here? Even though he 169 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:51.399 knows what's going on, and he's looking for that that 170 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:57.000 ability to converse and unload. And I think a lot 171 00:09:57.039 --> 00:09:59.559 of people are. I think they want that depending on 172 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.440 what they what they've gone through in their lives. In 173 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:04.559 our line of work, with what we were doing in 174 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:10.320 the military, particularly high end kinetic combat, you've made decisions 175 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:14.159 so quickly that when you come back around to really 176 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:19.639 decide or look at that decision process. You may second 177 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.919 guess yourself for quite a long time, and I think 178 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.440 I wrestled with that myself and my own career, and 179 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:27.759 that comes through in the book. Yeah. 180 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.559 I mean, I don't necessarily want to like go through 181 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.919 the entire plot of the book blow by blow, because well, 182 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.120 partly because I think people should just read it to 183 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.919 get that kind of information, but also because we kind 184 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:40.919 of went through your own career blow by blow in 185 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.360 the last episode. But I would like to at least 186 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:47.679 zero in on a couple different themes and issues and 187 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.000 things that come up in the book. Some of it 188 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:55.240 pretty controversial, I think. And you had mentioned you got 189 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.679 some blowback already from this book. 190 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:04.360 Right, Yeah, I have. Some people have not necessarily liked 191 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:10.440 the method in which it conveys certain things. Uh. Some 192 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.799 people have said that it presents Marine Corps and MARSOC 193 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.720 and a bad light. I don't. I don't believe. So. 194 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.480 I think that that the narrative is a vehicle, that 195 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.159 the backdrop is indeed the unit that I was in, 196 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.159 but there are multiple units and things that that these 197 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.519 types of things that happened in the book have occurred, 198 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.279 and there are there are items within you know, the 199 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:35.440 history of of both the Marine Corps and Marsac in 200 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.279 which they are are illustrated in there, and people have 201 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:43.000 not particularly they have not that has not been met 202 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.000 particularly positive. So yeah, fraternally, there are some people who 203 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.720 just want, like, I'm I don't like Ivans work and 204 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:53.200 I'm not endorsing it, and I won't so because it 205 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.799 makes the brand look bad and that that's not something 206 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.559 I sent out to do, right. I mean, I'm very 207 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.279 proud of service. I'm obviously a plank owner in Marsak 208 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.159 and that's not out there banging a drum trying to 209 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:06.879 make that sound. 210 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.159 But some of these things which I think maybe you 211 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.279 may reference it in the book, but it's not talked 212 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:17.799 about explicitly. As you know Fred Galvin's experience in his book, 213 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:21.960 you know, select he was exonerated, to be clear, and 214 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.000 his guys did apparently did nothing wrong. But I mean, 215 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:30.639 still there's this controversy and this terrible journey that him 216 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.080 and his guys went through, which is you know, has 217 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.360 some similarities to the protagonist of the book. 218 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.080 There is, and Fred and I have not specifically spoken 219 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.960 about his book, but we spoke. I certainly knew Fred 220 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.159 at the time that that was going down, and it 221 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:49.759 does factor into some of the difficult parts of trying 222 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:51.840 to remain a loyal to your people, where there's a 223 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:54.440 lot of things swirling around you, your own command to 224 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.240 sort of turned their back on you. I tried to 225 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.519 put myself kind of in Fred's position and say what 226 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.519 might that have felt like, and it sort of I 227 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.840 wouldn't say naturally fed to that, but it was just 228 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.840 a way going back to what Scott had said. Hey, 229 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.360 if you write this as a piece of fiction, it 230 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:12.080 didn't exactly happen to you, but you can look at 231 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:19.399 it from its composite, right, amalgamation of experiences. And truthfully, 232 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.879 you know in the book, I do mention that the 233 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:25.279 special Forces units that were attached or working with us 234 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:27.600 in many words, were there to keep tabs on us 235 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.360 as a result of what happened with Fred and his guys, 236 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:32.559 because they just so calm, large and use of socc 237 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:36.159 in particular, did not trust Marstock and that was a 238 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:38.519 tough thing to operate under at that point in time. 239 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:42.919 And so again this is in no way to diminish 240 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.159 anything of Fred and his guys. And I knew many 241 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:49.720 of them and still speak to some of them, think 242 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.639 well of their service. But they were in a very 243 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:54.360 difficult spot that we all sort of lived in the 244 00:13:54.399 --> 00:14:01.279 shadow of regardless of how it ended up being solved, 245 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.240 as you said, adjudicated, But at that point in time, 246 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:09.320 it was all happening in parallel in real time as 247 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.320 I was experiencing kind of what gets illustrated. 248 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.600 And is there also sort of like a split in 249 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.639 the command of like people who are in support of 250 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:19.000 and others who are like throwing the dude under the bus. 251 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.919 This seems to happen inevitably that there'll be a split, 252 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.159 and there's something to be said for everyone gets their due, 253 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.519 let the legal process take its course. Everyone's innoc until 254 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.480 proven guilty. But there'll be a lot of well I 255 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.080 think they're guilty, and you're either on board of this 256 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:46.720 or not. And early in my career I had just 257 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:53.080 on a nominal level, I was an investigating officer for 258 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:58.759 a because a piece of equipment, satellite communications equipment, got broken. 259 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.120 And what happened is a bunch of guys who were 260 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.639 offloading a truck just grab the ruck and just threw 261 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.039 it off the back as one does. Yeah, just unloading 262 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.720 at two o'clock in the morning, not knowing what was 263 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.480 in it, and as a very expensive piece of equipment, 264 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.559 it broke. And as I was brought in and after 265 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.120 I did, I was brought in after I did the investigation, 266 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:23.559 and I said, okay, this is what I found. Literally, 267 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:28.360 it is no one's fault. It is something that just happened. Yes, 268 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.639 the people who responsible are these people. However, they wouldn't 269 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:33.360 have done that if the right to say this person 270 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.840 broke this or this person is you know, directly responsible 271 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.519 you check their pay. That was just not possible. And 272 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:40.679 the officer above me, who I was giving that to, 273 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.279 is like, someone will be blamed for this, go find 274 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.000 I was like, I can't go do that. Okay, who 275 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:51.399 shall I pick you? In support? You'll see a trend 276 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.919 in there. You know that I getting poked in the 277 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:57.440 chest about that. So that something can happen on that 278 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:01.080 kind of smaller level when you get into laws of 279 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:04.600 armed conflict and some serious decision making in you know, 280 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:08.000 split second decision making and difficult circumstances, that just takes 281 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:08.679 it to another. 282 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.799 When when you described that, it reminds me of somebody 283 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:14.840 who was on this show. But I won't I won't 284 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:16.919 say his name. I don't think he would want me 285 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.679 to attach him to this story particularly, but in the 286 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:26.000 Special Operations community, and he was a leader. Some of 287 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:29.080 his guys were out training. One of them got killed 288 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.679 totally an accident. It was there weren't even firearms. The 289 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:39.879 guy fell, and they wanted him to blame the subordinate 290 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.799 that that soldier's team leader, you know, throw him under 291 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.360 the bus, fry him, like hey, we've looked at this 292 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:49.440 whole thing, like they didn't do anything wrong. And so 293 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.519 the chain of command fired that dude and the guy 294 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:58.080 who is the team leader, and so so he got 295 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:02.240 fired because he wouldn't fire the team. I mean, it's like, yeah, 296 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.720 what the hell. 297 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.480 They can absolutely go scorched earth. And and I do 298 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.200 remember with Fred and his guys, you know, there was 299 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.960 this there's kind of this Paul hanging over the Yeah, 300 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:16.880 when they came back. 301 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.319 Yeah, like I said, I don't think you directly referenced 302 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.039 it in the book, but like, there's. 303 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.599 This Paul hanging over the unit. And I knew what 304 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.720 you were talking about it. And so as you see 305 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.920 in the you know, in the book, it's there's in 306 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.240 microcosm that's kind of what happened to people take upsides. 307 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:35.319 Hey guys, it's your pal Jack. 308 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:36.759 I just want to take a moment to tell you 309 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:38.640 about the sponsor for this show, which. 310 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.279 Is stop Box. 311 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:46.000 Stop Box makes this very cool box to secure your 312 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:52.039 items in where your valuables or weapons could be a firearm, knife, 313 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.480 things that you want to keep away from kids. 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We 335 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.759 were talking a little bit about earlier how like these 336 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.319 units form little cliques inside them, and this is like 337 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.200 one of the big I don't want to say like 338 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.920 there isn't brotherhood in the military or in special operations. 339 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:25.799 There absolutely is, but like when you talk to civilians 340 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:27.400 or like when you talk to your parents, they have 341 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.039 this like impression that it's like the band of brothers 342 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:33.960 and everyone's like, I got your back, brother, and you know, 343 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:34.440 all this. 344 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:36.279 Sort of stuff, and there's some of that. 345 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.559 Sure, there's there's support, absolutely, but as these like splits 346 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:43.759 happen that you talk about, they're form, like these little 347 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:50.279 friend groups, pure groups form, and you know, what your 348 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.599 future looks like in the military sometimes depends on which 349 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.359 of those groups you're aligned with or friends with. 350 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:02.079 I think that that lens itself to people also in 351 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.279 the sense of self preservation. If it's loyalty to a fault, 352 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:08.480 and that's up and down the chain of command. Well, 353 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.039 and you're going down with whatever happens. And if you 354 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.359 distance yourself from that to some degree, then you can 355 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:20.640 be you can have a bigger standoff. And by not 356 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.680 getting involved, you're you're you're you're better off not taking 357 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.480 up sides. But those loyalties go deep, and as are 358 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.279 right in the beginning of the book, you know, we 359 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.079 once pledge forever to the other and now we never 360 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:37.440 talk right like that. That's how a lot of this works. 361 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:44.920 And in the book, certainly it centers around an officer, 362 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.480 Steve Keller, who is by all means my my avatar, 363 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:50.400 if you will, because as I said, it started out 364 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:54.920 as a as a biography. Although I developed Keller to 365 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:56.640 be a little bit different than me. I mean, he's 366 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.440 just got he's more interesting than I am, a little 367 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:06.079 more depth. But the biggest thing is that the the 368 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:10.119 typical memoir, the typical story, particularly the officer Johnah not 369 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.680 told from his perspective, and too the officer Hollywood has 370 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.960 done a huge disservice because the officer is either incompetent 371 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.839 or in a complete you know, self righteous prick. And 372 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.680 there are indeed some you know, type cast guys in 373 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:32.519 this book. But in the main, decision making is hard, 374 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.960 and combat decision making is hard. And maintaining cohesion while 375 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.319 you're having your guys being involved in high end kinetic 376 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.960 combat and maintain their humanity such as you can in 377 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:52.359 those environments is unlike anything out there. There's corporate can't 378 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:54.559 envision that they think on the layoff. 379 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.279 There's also this portrayal I think there has been, uh 380 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.960 also the military, of course itself advances this this idea 381 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.839 of like, you know, the zero body fat general that 382 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.519 runs ten miles every morning, and is this like a 383 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.400 must still want to think that, Yeah, we still want 384 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.440 to think that. But I think over the last ten 385 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.440 years there have been enough high ranking officers showing their 386 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:20.240 ass in public that like that kind of perception has 387 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.160 starting to wear off. And I think you can see 388 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.279 that and how this how the public relates to the 389 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.519 military and everything going on right now. 390 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.680 Yeah, and I think the book tries to, uh, all right, 391 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:39.039 attempt in the book to address the larger gap between 392 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.880 the public and those of us are served, because that's 393 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.400 getting that that's widening yet more. And at one point 394 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:49.960 we were all, you know, thank thank you for your service, 395 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.000 and we were serving in the fronts and people kind 396 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.880 of understood or knew somebody that was going to war 397 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:57.680 or was at war. And then as that started to 398 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.519 wind down and diminish, you just a fewer and few 399 00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:05.160 people have that kind of exposure. And so because of that, 400 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.759 those areas that you're talking about where it becomes yet 401 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.720