WEBVTT 1 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.199 We're Tom and Lebrend and this is the Bitter Kitten 2 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:27.800 Movie Club. Hellicans. Welcome back to another edition of the 3 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.839 b k MC, a supplemental edition of the PSO Podcast 4 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.200 where we take a look at one movie per week, 5 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:37.079 unpack it, and talk the hell out of it. This 6 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:41.240 week's movie is a director Joe Wright's Atonement from two 7 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.840 thousand and seven, starring Kieren Knightley and James McAboy and 8 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:50.359 a whole slew of up and coming British and Irish 9 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:55.159 stars like Cir Saronan and Juno Temple and be A c. 10 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:55.759 Cumber Batch. 11 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.079 I had completely forgotten about this movie. The only thing 12 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.520 I remember when we talked about it, it was like, 13 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.040 all right, the dress. I remember the dress, and which 14 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:07.319 we will talk about. But my point is that I 15 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.000 completely forgot all these people in the movie. My god, 16 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:11.920 I don't. 17 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.480 Know, and they're all young. Maybe it's because I wrote 18 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.200 that piece about the dress, but most of it was 19 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:19.560 still pretty fresh in my heart. 20 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.680 I completely forgot about everybody. I mean everybody. You named 21 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:24.760 Sir Sharonan like a baby. 22 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:26.840 Yeah, she's a baby in this all right. Let me 23 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:29.799 ask you this because there was you know, I'm watching 24 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.000 this film, and I honestly don't know how many times 25 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:34.480 I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it more 26 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.640 than maybe three times. It's not like some obsessive watch 27 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:44.159 of mine. But I could not place myself in the 28 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:50.239 mindset of a first time viewer. So I'm I don't know. 29 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:53.560 Do you think the twist at the end is surprising? 30 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:53.959 Yes? 31 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.319 It is? Oh, okay, I can't tell. I've seen it, 32 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:58.000 so I know it, and I think is it? 33 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.480 I think there are clever things and we'll talk them 34 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:02.760 all right, Okay, but first of all, we have to 35 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:05.560 remember that it's based on a book. So when yes, 36 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:08.000 when something like any movie based on a book, they 37 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:09.280 have to sort of follow the book. 38 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:11.159 Yes, so I adapt it. 39 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:13.599 Yes. My point is that it does feel like a 40 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:17.680 book every now and then I see that, and you know, 41 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:22.000 but it's I think it's a great story. I do too, 42 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:25.680 beautifully done, I think, And it's one of those movies 43 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:28.400 I'm watching it. I'm like, man, those British people. 44 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:30.879 They really know their shit. Now, well, here's the thing. 45 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:32.840 It's and this is one of the things that I 46 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:37.199 do actually really like about the film is that it, 47 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:40.599 in terms of its themes and setting and the milieu. 48 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.400 It couldn't be more English. Oh, it starts in an English 49 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:48.639 country house with spoiled, snobby people, and then it's World 50 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:51.680 War two, and then it's like, you know, London during 51 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:56.280 the war and nurses and soldiers and Dunkirk and overwriting 52 00:02:56.360 --> 00:03:00.120 the entire thing as secrets and sexual repression and scammed. Well, 53 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.560 so on some level it is a quintessentially English sort 54 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:08.199 of story. And what I really like about the film 55 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.599 and what Joe Wright has done is the way it 56 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.199 avoids lingering too long on any of that. I mean, 57 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:18.000 I do think it spends too much time at don Kirk, 58 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:21.800 and we'll get into that, but the scenes on the 59 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.240 estate in the beginning of the film are so subtle. 60 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.319 And I just want to note that this movie, it's 61 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:30.479 two thousand and seven. It comes out at almost a 62 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.680 perfect halfway point between Robert Altman's Gosford Park, which came 63 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.000 out in two thousand and one with Maggie Smith, and 64 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:40.719 Downton Abbey, which came out in two thousand and nine 65 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:45.759 or twenty ten. It's in that period where there was 66 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:48.000 just a lot of movies and TV shows about English 67 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.560 country houses and the problem with those stories is that 68 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.159 they all unpack relatively the same themes over and over 69 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.039 and over again. In fact, that's why there have been 70 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.000 so many Downton Abbey parodies in the last couple of years, 71 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.879 is because we've all seen these fucking stories, right. And 72 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.520 what I like is that Wright is he doesn't linger 73 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:11.840 on any of those cliches. He doesn't make them the 74 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:13.919 point of the story, but he lets some sort of 75 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:16.120 color the story. I'm going to talk about a specific scene. 76 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:20.680 It's just where Kiera Knightley and her brother are on 77 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.639 that like barge on the on the lake with a 78 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:26.399 diving board with Benedict Comber. 79 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:31.360 Badge looking incredible. Who Benedett, Yes, god, so young and 80 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.759 well he's so young, yeah, and handsome. She looks, Oh 81 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.639 my god, everybody everybody looks. 82 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:42.439 So anyway, they're all doing banter, and she actually does 83 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.360 say at one point that she's not friendly with James 84 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.199 McAvoy's character anymore because we don't run in the same crowds. 85 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:54.199 And then at another point, Kira and her brother, I 86 00:04:54.199 --> 00:05:00.319 don't know the brother's name, maybe Leon, right, Bennedict Cumber 87 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:05.600 batches speaking and the two of them exchange looks and 88 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.240 Benedict Cumberbatch catches it, and nothing is made of this. 89 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.639 In fact, Benedict Cumberbatch is largely the villain of one 90 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.160 of the villains of the piece by the end of 91 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.639 the film. But it just sort of underlines these people 92 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.439 are fucking snobs, even to people of their own because 93 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.959 Benedict was you know, he was wealthy. He was the 94 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.639 one with the money. Yeah, he was the son of 95 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.279 a manufacturer or whatever chocolate. But that family is so 96 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.240 those country house families, Like they all put on their 97 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:36.399 tiaras and they're out in the middle of the like, 98 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:42.959 it's so snobby. And I love that the that right 99 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.439 did not shy away from that, showing you know, these 100 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.959 people are all snobs, but not lingering on it too much, 101 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.360 because the other aspect of the story is that James 102 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:57.680 McAvoy is a servant's son who is you know, invited 103 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.279 to dinner and allowed to walk through the front door, 104 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.560 but as soon as someone says something bad about him, 105 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.680 they all turn on him immediately, and so there's classism. 106 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.120 Can't get more English than a story about classism and snobbery. 107 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.319 But again, it does not linger too much on that. 108 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.560 It does not have people talking about that constantly. He 109 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:19.959 only mentions it near the end of the film. 110 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:21.439 I think everything is very subtle. 111 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:24.600 That's the point. I'm trying to make you figure. 112 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.079 Things out as the viewer. But you know, he's just 113 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.040 a He's just a line here and there. But it 114 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.800 didn't just set up is interesting. The house is goings stunning, 115 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.360 the costumes are beautiful, and everybody's really, really, really good. 116 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.800 There's not a single person that's bad in this. I 117 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:44.759 will say that Harriet Walter, who plays the mother, is 118 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:45.800 kind of wasted in this. 119 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.319 Yeah, you don't see much Juno Temple. My god, I 120 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.920 was like, what baby, I know, and I'm like, what 121 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:57.959 are you doing there? I forgot you. Yeah, everybody everybody 122 00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:58.399 was great. 123 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:03.759 Absolutely, But like Juno Temple's storyline, again, there's a lot 124 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.199 of subtlety in how that is presented. Is she a 125 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:15.480 young girl who lied about who her rapist was? Or 126 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.959 is she a young girl who got caught having sex 127 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:24.199 with someone she shouldn't have and let that story because 128 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:30.240 I think the film I was watching the wedding scene 129 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.160 and I don't know, are you supposed to believe this tragic? 130 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.360 She wound up marrying her rapist? And I or is 131 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:39.680 she just a villain who just lied about being caught 132 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.800 with an older man and wound up marrying him again subtlety. 133 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:43.399 I don't know. 134 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.879 Yeah, it's not very clear if she just went with 135 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:47.480 the story. 136 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:49.839 Is she a tragic character or is she a bit 137 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.279 That's really what it comes down to, and you don't know. 138 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:58.800 The film does not really tell you either way. Although yeah, 139 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.560 I mean she's still about her rape. I mean she's 140 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.399 still you know, if Bennett Cumberbatch had raped her, why 141 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.040 wouldn't she tell the truth about that? So I guess 142 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.079 it comes down on the side of villainy. And that's 143 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:15.360 a little dicey is when you make a rape a 144 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.079 rape lie the center of your story, because you know, 145 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.160 it gets into old tropes. 146 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.240 About complicated you know, maybe at you have to take 147 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.199 to understand that at the time, maybe she was kind 148 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.399 of forced to marry him or who do you don't know. 149 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.679 It's the film exactly. The film does not come down 150 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:36.840 hard on any of this. It's it's a really interesting 151 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.360 approach because and I guess that's the point is that 152 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.200 the ambiguity is supposed to be what fuels the story. 153 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:45.879 The other thing I think about him, his directing and 154 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:47.879 the writing of the film, which is very smart. And 155 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.000 Ian McEwan, who wrote the book, is one of the 156 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.120 co writers of the film, so that it has something 157 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.360 to do with it. The way the film plays with time, 158 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.039 it'll show you a scene and then it'll go back 159 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:02.559 and show you the seen from a slightly different perspective 160 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.279 or angle or like that. I always like that. Well, 161 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.200 the thing is, the story is relatively straightforward. If you 162 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:12.120 were to tell it in a chronological manner, if you 163 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.799 were to not be ambiguous about what you were trying 164 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.399 to say, then you would have a very straightforward story. 165 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.559 But it probably wouldn't be very interesting. In fact, you 166 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:25.399 would you wouldn't have that twist at the end. It 167 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:28.519 would just all play out normally. So in order to 168 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.679 make the story more interesting, you have to have that 169 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:36.639 sort of playing around with the time to the timeline. 170 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.200 There is a question hanging over the film that I 171 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:44.440 would love to get into, but I think that's going 172 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:49.279 to be after our first break. Let's talk about the 173 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:54.120 production design. We will talk about the dress the production design. 174 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.159 First off, that house which I was shocked to find 175 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:59.559 out that house was only built in the late nineteenth century. 176 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:01.639 I would have thought it was built like a sixteen. 177 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.759 What I want to point out is that, uh, there's 178 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.279 some there's a lot of themes and visual motifs in 179 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:14.279 the film. One of them is water. We see her 180 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:17.159 diving into that pond, or we see her diving into 181 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.600 that fountain. They're on that lake, they're on the beach 182 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.039 at Dunkirk, and of course she drowns at the end 183 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:29.360 of the film. Well, I mean, oh yeah, I mean 184 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:31.639 I don't feel like I need to do spoil our 185 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:38.240 alerts for this podcast, you know, and and once you 186 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.080 know that, you can look for them, and it's it's 187 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.320 an artful way of using that. And and similarly, I 188 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:47.080 think it's a bit of a subtle foreshadowing is that, 189 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:51.759 you know, James McAvoy is sitting in his his like 190 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.799 bedroom or whatever and whatever shack his mother lives in, 191 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.080 and he's looking over a skylight and a bomber flies 192 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.080 over her head. And again I feel like that's a 193 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:05.000 subtle absolute. Another subtle point is that that scene on 194 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:08.519 an incredibly romantic scene where she gets on the bus 195 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.919 and they're parted, and she's in her nurse's uniform and 196 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.960 he's in his soldier's uniform. It could not be anywhere English. 197 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:19.480 And the bus is going to the station where she 198 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:24.480 eventually dies, it's on the back of the bus. Yeah. Yeah, 199 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:26.360 there's all of that. And the other thing that I 200 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.960 want to point out, which I love, is all of 201 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.480 the floral motifs in the film, and I don't know 202 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.120 that they have anything more to do with it except 203 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.399 that argument that she has with Robbie with the vase 204 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.759 by the fountain is what initiates everything. It all starts 205 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.600 in that moment, and everything falls apart after that moment, 206 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.279 and it's all about those flowers. And so if you 207 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.799 go into the house, that house is choking with flowers, 208 00:11:55.639 --> 00:12:01.600 every upholstered item, every pillow, every wallpapery, curtain, and sometimes 209 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.559 like that children's playroom that they're in, there's like six 210 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:08.720 different florals going on in that room. Now, that's pretty 211 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.159 much of the time of the period of the style 212 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:14.080 for that kind of house. But I you know, production 213 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:16.960 design choices are choices, and I felt like this was 214 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.720 a visual motif that was tying that moment, that moment 215 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.080 at the fountain with the rest of the story, right, 216 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.399 the whole thing, the vase and all. 217 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.879 Pause because it's you know, it's not very clear why 218 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.240 you think that's so important, because she makes the point 219 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.960 that it's one of our most valuable Yeah. 220 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.080 Yeah, I don't think the vase itself actually means anything. 221 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:41.519 I think she was using as an excuse to go outside, 222 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.120 like she wanted to see him. If you want to 223 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:45.960 fill up a vase, why would you carry it all 224 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:50.200 the way outside to it. I order she wanted to 225 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.679 see him. You know. It's those two were hot for 226 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.960 each other, crazy, crazy hot for each other. And I'm assuming, 227 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:03.360 because again the doesn't spell these things out, that class 228 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.600 issues were keeping them apart. She was clearly a snob. 229 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:08.360 I mean, she was very clearly a snob. She even 230 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.559 thought Benedict Cumberbatch's character was beneath her, So how was 231 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.480 she going to date the cooks, you know, son or whatever. 232 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.159 But the whole water thing is interesting because there's also 233 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.320 sircial Ronan's character. She jumps into water too. 234 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.639 Again, that's yeah, that's another example, and they show that, 235 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.360 they show them underwater like that, and then they show 236 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.519 Kara Knightley at the end floating in that tube station underwater. 237 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.600 I think all of that is rather artfully done. 238 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.720 I think the I think the movie did a very 239 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.639 good job if you're watch him for the first time 240 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.639 not really knowing what's going on and what's real and 241 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.759 was what's not real? And I thought that was very clever. Yeah, 242 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.360 but you only find out that towards the end, when 243 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.960 when you're actually talking to old Sircier Ronan's character. 244 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.279 All right, let's take a short break. I'm gonna unpack that. 245 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.240 When we come back, we'll be right back picking up. 246 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:02.559 We're back picking up on your last point, Lorenzo. I 247 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.480 thought it was interesting again because I could not put 248 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.039 myself in the place of someone who didn't know where 249 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.399 the story was going. And it'll be interesting if any 250 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.000 of you listening had did watch this for the first time. 251 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:17.240 I would really be interested in hearing your thoughts on this, 252 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:22.720 because I felt like kind of by the time you 253 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:25.159 got to Dunkirk. And I do think that scene went 254 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.039 on too long. It's one of the few criticisms I 255 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.720 have of the film is that the World War two 256 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:34.639 France scenes just went on too long. And I actually 257 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:38.360 might have wanted a little bit more of Briany at 258 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.480 the hospital and all that, or even Cecilia at the hospital. 259 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:47.279 Karen Knightley's character. But by the time you get to 260 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:50.000 Dunkirk and they're wandering that beach and my god, that 261 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.399 scene did go on long. It's an impressively shot scene, 262 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.840 but it did go on along. You're starting to get 263 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.960 the sense of this is not going to be a romance, 264 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.200 like there's not to be a happy ending here. You 265 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.039 sort of get that sense. Am I wrong? 266 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.759 Yeah? I again, if you haven't read the book, if 267 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.600 you watching the movie for the first time, you kind 268 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.799 of you want them to be together. 269 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:14.799 Of course, wonderful together. You want them to. 270 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:16.600 Get together at some point, but you don't know if 271 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:18.320 that's going to happen, if one of them is going 272 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.840 to die. I mean, you keep wondering the whole time. 273 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:22.960 And I think the movie does a very good job. 274 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.200 And I don't know. Again, I haven't read the book. 275 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.559 Maybe the book has a like a whole chapter about 276 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.240 the you know, him going to war, But. 277 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.519 I mean, ultimately it's whether it works as in the 278 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:34.679 film or not. I thought it was. 279 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.639 I thought it was interesting too, to give you some 280 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.919 perspective of what was going on at the time. I 281 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.600 think that's watching those scenes, I'm like, oh, holy shit, man. 282 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.440 I do think it's very good at reminding you. Yes, yes, 283 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.440 you know, World War two was brutal as ship. It 284 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:51.440 was incredibly. 285 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.159 Broaching watching those scenes. What came to my mind was like, Wow, 286 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.440 you were in the pretty house and all of a sudden, 287 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:58.440 now you're you're taking care of dead bodies, you know, 288 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:03.039 because that's the reality of what happened. Right, So I 289 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:04.159 think the movie does a good job. 290 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.840 I actually really I know, apparently the scene with Briany 291 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.519 and the French soldier with the head wound in the hospital, 292 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:15.240 uh huh. The director had to fight to get that 293 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.559 in because, like you know, the the studio didn't think 294 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:20.840 there was a need for that scene, and maybe there 295 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:22.559 isn't a need for that scene, but I really did 296 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.720 think it was you know it. I think it's a 297 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.480 necessary overall theme about the brutality of those years and 298 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:30.559 what it did to the English people. 299 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.080 And also what she put Robbie through, you know. Yes, yeah, 300 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.360 I think that's a good point because she's she's looking 301 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.000 at what what what happened to those people? Yeah, and 302 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.120 because of what she did, he's in that position. Now. 303 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.240 I want to talk about the dress, and then we're 304 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.159 going to jump into talking about Briany, because that's my 305 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:53.759 overriding question here. Is Briany a villain or is she 306 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.840 just a girl who made a terrible mistake? 307 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:01.039 Don't get into that later. The dress, The dress, My god. 308 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.679 I have written a lot about this dress. We wrote 309 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:05.759 a piece on it like six years ago on our site, 310 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.079 going to link to it. I don't have much more 311 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.480 to say that hasn't been said in that piece, but 312 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.279 I will point out Jacqueline Duran is the costume designer, 313 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.000 and it's one of the few dresses on that has 314 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.039 its own Wikipedia entry. There's only about ten dresses. 315 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.000 It's insane. 316 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.960 Yeah, I think it's fair to say it's one of 317 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:32.400 the most iconic gowns cinematic gowns of the twenty first century, 318 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.960 but I definitely I would also place it as one 319 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.720 of the most iconic gowns in cinema history period. One 320 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:40.759 of the things that stands out about that gown is 321 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.839 you might not realize it because it feels so perfectly 322 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.799 of the moment, it's actually not. There's a lot about 323 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:49.920 that gown that no one in nineteen thirty five would 324 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.880 have broughtn has spaghetti straps, and that was not a 325 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.000 thing in nineteen thirty five. There's a laser cut lace 326 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.160 in the bodice, and obviously that wasn't a thing in 327 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.880 nineteen thirty five. The way it's gathered on the front 328 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.039 and everything, even the shape of the skirt, the shape 329 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.720 of the skirt is extremely full for nineteen thirty If 330 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.279 you think of like gowns, like silk bias cut gowns 331 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.839 in nineteen thirty five, you're looking at like Carol Lombard 332 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.680 and Jean Harlow and those screen sirens, and those gowns 333 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:24.359 were sleek. I mean, Jean Harlowe famously, I'm gonna give 334 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.640 you a little bit of she had a shave or 335 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.079 bush because she couldn't wear she had to be naked 336 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.119 under those gowns, and they were so clingy that she 337 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.559 had to, you know, keep herself hair free down there. 338 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.559 That's how clingy those gowns were. Because of her Fabri 339 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.559 has a lot of drape and flow. When she walks 340 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.119 out of the front door and it is just billowing 341 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.640 around her. It's really not nineteen thirty five, but it's 342 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.279 a stunner the go it is. I mean, I mean, 343 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.240 she never looked more beautiful on film. My god, just 344 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.000 never ever total supermodel. In that moment, they don't even think. 345 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.400 I mean, obviously Karen Knightley's beautiful, but in that moment, 346 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.920 it's like, holy cow, I think cinematic professions. 347 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.359 She's a beautiful woman, but she's not like gorgeous, drop 348 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.920 dead like well people expect of, you know, that type 349 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.279 of beauty. But in that moment, in that moment, Johnny, 350 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.480 that shade of green is just perfection everything about everything 351 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:21.839 about it. 352 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.319 And if you want to get into symbolism, like that 353 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:28.400 green it evokes all of the grasses and wildlife that's 354 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:34.720 around her. But green also has a has a an 355 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:40.000 underlying implication of poison and also magic. So it's kind 356 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.599 of all bound up in in that color is that 357 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.559 there's the natural world, there is the magic of her, 358 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.400 just a vision of her right and the fact that 359 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.680 you know her life and his life are ruined after 360 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.359 she wears that gown. And one of the things I 361 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.960 pointed out when we wrote about that gown is anytime 362 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.720 you see someone pickin item, pick something out of a 363 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.160 closet and get dressed on camera, there's a reason for that. 364 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:06.839 They want you to look at that outfit. They want 365 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.759 you to understand that that outfit has meaning. Think of 366 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:14.039 every makeover sen you ever saw that. There's a reason 367 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.039 you're shown her choosing and picking that dress. It's important. 368 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.000 And I also want to note I think the sex 369 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:27.599 scene is both very sexy and a little disturbing. And 370 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.319 it's sexy when you're in their perspective and when you 371 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.400 look at it from Briany's perspective. He does a very 372 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.359 good job of shooting that in a manner where you're like, 373 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:38.839 what the hell is going on there? 374 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:39.160 Yeah? 375 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.559 What like because a thirteen year old girl in nineteen 376 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:42.559 thirty five would not have. 377 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.920 Known, right, I do think, well, she makes a point 378 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.440 that she was in love with him, so I think 379 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.680 there's also that there's a little bit of jealousy there 380 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.200 and why her and all that. I don't think she's 381 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:56.880 completely naive about the whole thing. I think she's a 382 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.839 child and misunderstood, you know, but you. 383 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.720 Really think she didn't understand it was Bennetict Cumberbatch. No 384 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.240 until the wedding, because that's what it's implied. 385 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.400 No, I know she knew, she knew it wasn't him. 386 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:10.240 She did that. 387 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.000 I think because she was pissed. She was annoyed as 388 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.240 a child, she was annoyed. 389 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.480 I think there's a bit of that, But I don't 390 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:22.000 know how deliberate she was in nineteen thirty five, And 391 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:24.559 I think, if you want to get into it, I 392 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.720 don't think a thirteen year old girl in that setting, 393 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.960 in that time period, I don't think she should be 394 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.440 judged too harshly for making that kind of mistake, even 395 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.039 if it was caught up in her own feelings, in 396 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.119 her own sexual repression, which it clearly was. But my 397 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.519 take is everything she does after that, including right up 398 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:49.279 until Vanessa Redgrave at the end, uh, huh, villain, don't. 399 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.440 I don't think she's a villain. I think she can't 400 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.079 deal with her guilt. I think, Okay, I think she 401 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.079