1 00:00:22,399 --> 00:00:25,199 Speaker 1: We're Tom and Lebrend and this is the Bitter Kitten 2 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,800 Movie Club. Hellicans. Welcome back to another edition of the 3 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,839 b k MC, a supplemental edition of the PSO Podcast 4 00:00:30,839 --> 00:00:33,200 where we take a look at one movie per week, 5 00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:37,079 unpack it, and talk the hell out of it. This 6 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:41,240 week's movie is a director Joe Wright's Atonement from two 7 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,840 thousand and seven, starring Kieren Knightley and James McAboy and 8 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,359 a whole slew of up and coming British and Irish 9 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,159 stars like Cir Saronan and Juno Temple and be A c. 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:55,759 Cumber Batch. 11 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,079 Speaker 2: I had completely forgotten about this movie. The only thing 12 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:02,520 I remember when we talked about it, it was like, 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,040 all right, the dress. I remember the dress, and which 14 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:07,319 we will talk about. But my point is that I 15 00:01:07,359 --> 00:01:11,000 completely forgot all these people in the movie. My god, 16 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:11,920 I don't. 17 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: Know, and they're all young. Maybe it's because I wrote 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,200 that piece about the dress, but most of it was 19 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,560 still pretty fresh in my heart. 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 2: I completely forgot about everybody. I mean everybody. You named 21 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:24,760 Sir Sharonan like a baby. 22 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a baby in this all right. Let me 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,799 ask you this because there was you know, I'm watching 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,000 this film, and I honestly don't know how many times 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,480 I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it more 26 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:37,640 than maybe three times. It's not like some obsessive watch 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:44,159 of mine. But I could not place myself in the 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,239 mindset of a first time viewer. So I'm I don't know. 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,560 Do you think the twist at the end is surprising? 30 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:53,959 Speaker 2: Yes? 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,319 Speaker 1: It is? Oh, okay, I can't tell. I've seen it, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,000 so I know it, and I think is it? 33 00:01:58,079 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: I think there are clever things and we'll talk them 34 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,760 all right, Okay, but first of all, we have to 35 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:05,560 remember that it's based on a book. So when yes, 36 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,000 when something like any movie based on a book, they 37 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:09,280 have to sort of follow the book. 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,159 Speaker 1: Yes, so I adapt it. 39 00:02:11,319 --> 00:02:13,599 Speaker 2: Yes. My point is that it does feel like a 40 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,680 book every now and then I see that, and you know, 41 00:02:18,199 --> 00:02:22,000 but it's I think it's a great story. I do too, 42 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,680 beautifully done, I think, And it's one of those movies 43 00:02:25,719 --> 00:02:28,400 I'm watching it. I'm like, man, those British people. 44 00:02:28,199 --> 00:02:30,879 Speaker 1: They really know their shit. Now, well, here's the thing. 45 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:32,840 It's and this is one of the things that I 46 00:02:33,439 --> 00:02:37,199 do actually really like about the film is that it, 47 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,599 in terms of its themes and setting and the milieu. 48 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,400 It couldn't be more English. Oh, it starts in an English 49 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,639 country house with spoiled, snobby people, and then it's World 50 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,680 War two, and then it's like, you know, London during 51 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:56,280 the war and nurses and soldiers and Dunkirk and overwriting 52 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,120 the entire thing as secrets and sexual repression and scammed. Well, 53 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:04,560 so on some level it is a quintessentially English sort 54 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,199 of story. And what I really like about the film 55 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:11,599 and what Joe Wright has done is the way it 56 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:16,199 avoids lingering too long on any of that. I mean, 57 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,000 I do think it spends too much time at don Kirk, 58 00:03:18,039 --> 00:03:21,800 and we'll get into that, but the scenes on the 59 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,240 estate in the beginning of the film are so subtle. 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,319 And I just want to note that this movie, it's 61 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,479 two thousand and seven. It comes out at almost a 62 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,680 perfect halfway point between Robert Altman's Gosford Park, which came 63 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:37,000 out in two thousand and one with Maggie Smith, and 64 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,719 Downton Abbey, which came out in two thousand and nine 65 00:03:41,319 --> 00:03:45,759 or twenty ten. It's in that period where there was 66 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,000 just a lot of movies and TV shows about English 67 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,560 country houses and the problem with those stories is that 68 00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:55,159 they all unpack relatively the same themes over and over 69 00:03:55,159 --> 00:03:57,039 and over again. In fact, that's why there have been 70 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,000 so many Downton Abbey parodies in the last couple of years, 71 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,879 is because we've all seen these fucking stories, right. And 72 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:08,520 what I like is that Wright is he doesn't linger 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,840 on any of those cliches. He doesn't make them the 74 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:13,919 point of the story, but he lets some sort of 75 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,120 color the story. I'm going to talk about a specific scene. 76 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,680 It's just where Kiera Knightley and her brother are on 77 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,639 that like barge on the on the lake with a 78 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,399 diving board with Benedict Comber. 79 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: Badge looking incredible. Who Benedett, Yes, god, so young and 80 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:34,759 well he's so young, yeah, and handsome. She looks, Oh 81 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:37,639 my god, everybody everybody looks. 82 00:04:37,879 --> 00:04:42,439 Speaker 1: So anyway, they're all doing banter, and she actually does 83 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,360 say at one point that she's not friendly with James 84 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:49,199 McAvoy's character anymore because we don't run in the same crowds. 85 00:04:49,879 --> 00:04:54,199 And then at another point, Kira and her brother, I 86 00:04:54,199 --> 00:05:00,319 don't know the brother's name, maybe Leon, right, Bennedict Cumber 87 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:05,600 batches speaking and the two of them exchange looks and 88 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:09,240 Benedict Cumberbatch catches it, and nothing is made of this. 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,639 In fact, Benedict Cumberbatch is largely the villain of one 90 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,160 of the villains of the piece by the end of 91 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,639 the film. But it just sort of underlines these people 92 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:22,439 are fucking snobs, even to people of their own because 93 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,959 Benedict was you know, he was wealthy. He was the 94 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,639 one with the money. Yeah, he was the son of 95 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,279 a manufacturer or whatever chocolate. But that family is so 96 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,240 those country house families, Like they all put on their 97 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:36,399 tiaras and they're out in the middle of the like, 98 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:42,959 it's so snobby. And I love that the that right 99 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,439 did not shy away from that, showing you know, these 100 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,959 people are all snobs, but not lingering on it too much, 101 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,360 because the other aspect of the story is that James 102 00:05:52,439 --> 00:05:57,680 McAvoy is a servant's son who is you know, invited 103 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,279 to dinner and allowed to walk through the front door, 104 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:02,560 but as soon as someone says something bad about him, 105 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,680 they all turn on him immediately, and so there's classism. 106 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,120 Can't get more English than a story about classism and snobbery. 107 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:14,319 But again, it does not linger too much on that. 108 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:17,560 It does not have people talking about that constantly. He 109 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,959 only mentions it near the end of the film. 110 00:06:20,079 --> 00:06:21,439 Speaker 2: I think everything is very subtle. 111 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: That's the point. I'm trying to make you figure. 112 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,079 Speaker 2: Things out as the viewer. But you know, he's just 113 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,040 a He's just a line here and there. But it 114 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,800 didn't just set up is interesting. The house is goings stunning, 115 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,360 the costumes are beautiful, and everybody's really, really, really good. 116 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: There's not a single person that's bad in this. I 117 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,759 will say that Harriet Walter, who plays the mother, is 118 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,800 kind of wasted in this. 119 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't see much Juno Temple. My god, I 120 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,920 was like, what baby, I know, and I'm like, what 121 00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:57,959 are you doing there? I forgot you. Yeah, everybody everybody 122 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:58,399 was great. 123 00:06:58,759 --> 00:07:03,759 Speaker 1: Absolutely, But like Juno Temple's storyline, again, there's a lot 124 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:09,199 of subtlety in how that is presented. Is she a 125 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,480 young girl who lied about who her rapist was? Or 126 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,959 is she a young girl who got caught having sex 127 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,199 with someone she shouldn't have and let that story because 128 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,240 I think the film I was watching the wedding scene 129 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,160 and I don't know, are you supposed to believe this tragic? 130 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:36,360 She wound up marrying her rapist? And I or is 131 00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:39,680 she just a villain who just lied about being caught 132 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,800 with an older man and wound up marrying him again subtlety. 133 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:43,399 I don't know. 134 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not very clear if she just went with 135 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:47,480 the story. 136 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:49,839 Speaker 1: Is she a tragic character or is she a bit 137 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,279 That's really what it comes down to, and you don't know. 138 00:07:52,519 --> 00:07:58,800 The film does not really tell you either way. Although yeah, 139 00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:01,560 I mean she's still about her rape. I mean she's 140 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,399 still you know, if Bennett Cumberbatch had raped her, why 141 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:08,040 wouldn't she tell the truth about that? So I guess 142 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,079 it comes down on the side of villainy. And that's 143 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,360 a little dicey is when you make a rape a 144 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,079 rape lie the center of your story, because you know, 145 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,160 it gets into old tropes. 146 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: About complicated you know, maybe at you have to take 147 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,199 to understand that at the time, maybe she was kind 148 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,399 of forced to marry him or who do you don't know. 149 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: It's the film exactly. The film does not come down 150 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,840 hard on any of this. It's it's a really interesting 151 00:08:36,879 --> 00:08:39,360 approach because and I guess that's the point is that 152 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:42,200 the ambiguity is supposed to be what fuels the story. 153 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,879 The other thing I think about him, his directing and 154 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,879 the writing of the film, which is very smart. And 155 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,000 Ian McEwan, who wrote the book, is one of the 156 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:52,120 co writers of the film, so that it has something 157 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:56,360 to do with it. The way the film plays with time, 158 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,039 it'll show you a scene and then it'll go back 159 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,559 and show you the seen from a slightly different perspective 160 00:09:02,639 --> 00:09:06,279 or angle or like that. I always like that. Well, 161 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,200 the thing is, the story is relatively straightforward. If you 162 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,120 were to tell it in a chronological manner, if you 163 00:09:12,159 --> 00:09:15,799 were to not be ambiguous about what you were trying 164 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:18,399 to say, then you would have a very straightforward story. 165 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:20,559 But it probably wouldn't be very interesting. In fact, you 166 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,399 would you wouldn't have that twist at the end. It 167 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,519 would just all play out normally. So in order to 168 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,679 make the story more interesting, you have to have that 169 00:09:31,759 --> 00:09:36,639 sort of playing around with the time to the timeline. 170 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,200 There is a question hanging over the film that I 171 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,440 would love to get into, but I think that's going 172 00:09:44,519 --> 00:09:49,279 to be after our first break. Let's talk about the 173 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,120 production design. We will talk about the dress the production design. 174 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:57,159 First off, that house which I was shocked to find 175 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,559 out that house was only built in the late nineteenth century. 176 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,639 I would have thought it was built like a sixteen. 177 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,759 What I want to point out is that, uh, there's 178 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:11,279 some there's a lot of themes and visual motifs in 179 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,279 the film. One of them is water. We see her 180 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,159 diving into that pond, or we see her diving into 181 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,600 that fountain. They're on that lake, they're on the beach 182 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:23,039 at Dunkirk, and of course she drowns at the end 183 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:29,360 of the film. Well, I mean, oh yeah, I mean 184 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,639 I don't feel like I need to do spoil our 185 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:38,240 alerts for this podcast, you know, and and once you 186 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,080 know that, you can look for them, and it's it's 187 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,320 an artful way of using that. And and similarly, I 188 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,080 think it's a bit of a subtle foreshadowing is that, 189 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:51,759 you know, James McAvoy is sitting in his his like 190 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:54,799 bedroom or whatever and whatever shack his mother lives in, 191 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,080 and he's looking over a skylight and a bomber flies 192 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,080 over her head. And again I feel like that's a 193 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:05,000 subtle absolute. Another subtle point is that that scene on 194 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,519 an incredibly romantic scene where she gets on the bus 195 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:11,919 and they're parted, and she's in her nurse's uniform and 196 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,960 he's in his soldier's uniform. It could not be anywhere English. 197 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,480 And the bus is going to the station where she 198 00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:24,480 eventually dies, it's on the back of the bus. Yeah. Yeah, 199 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:26,360 there's all of that. And the other thing that I 200 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:28,960 want to point out, which I love, is all of 201 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:31,480 the floral motifs in the film, and I don't know 202 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:34,120 that they have anything more to do with it except 203 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,399 that argument that she has with Robbie with the vase 204 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,759 by the fountain is what initiates everything. It all starts 205 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:46,600 in that moment, and everything falls apart after that moment, 206 00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:50,279 and it's all about those flowers. And so if you 207 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,799 go into the house, that house is choking with flowers, 208 00:11:55,639 --> 00:12:01,600 every upholstered item, every pillow, every wallpapery, curtain, and sometimes 209 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:04,559 like that children's playroom that they're in, there's like six 210 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,720 different florals going on in that room. Now, that's pretty 211 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:11,159 much of the time of the period of the style 212 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,080 for that kind of house. But I you know, production 213 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,960 design choices are choices, and I felt like this was 214 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,720 a visual motif that was tying that moment, that moment 215 00:12:20,759 --> 00:12:24,080 at the fountain with the rest of the story, right, 216 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:26,399 the whole thing, the vase and all. 217 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,879 Speaker 2: Pause because it's you know, it's not very clear why 218 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,240 you think that's so important, because she makes the point 219 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,960 that it's one of our most valuable Yeah. 220 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think the vase itself actually means anything. 221 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,519 I think she was using as an excuse to go outside, 222 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,120 like she wanted to see him. If you want to 223 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,960 fill up a vase, why would you carry it all 224 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,200 the way outside to it. I order she wanted to 225 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,679 see him. You know. It's those two were hot for 226 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,960 each other, crazy, crazy hot for each other. And I'm assuming, 227 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,360 because again the doesn't spell these things out, that class 228 00:13:03,399 --> 00:13:05,600 issues were keeping them apart. She was clearly a snob. 229 00:13:06,039 --> 00:13:08,360 I mean, she was very clearly a snob. She even 230 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,559 thought Benedict Cumberbatch's character was beneath her, So how was 231 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,480 she going to date the cooks, you know, son or whatever. 232 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,159 Speaker 2: But the whole water thing is interesting because there's also 233 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:21,320 sircial Ronan's character. She jumps into water too. 234 00:13:21,759 --> 00:13:24,639 Speaker 1: Again, that's yeah, that's another example, and they show that, 235 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,360 they show them underwater like that, and then they show 236 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,519 Kara Knightley at the end floating in that tube station underwater. 237 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,600 I think all of that is rather artfully done. 238 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: I think the I think the movie did a very 239 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,639 good job if you're watch him for the first time 240 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,639 not really knowing what's going on and what's real and 241 00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:47,759 was what's not real? And I thought that was very clever. Yeah, 242 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:50,360 but you only find out that towards the end, when 243 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,960 when you're actually talking to old Sircier Ronan's character. 244 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:56,279 Speaker 1: All right, let's take a short break. I'm gonna unpack that. 245 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,240 When we come back, we'll be right back picking up. 246 00:13:59,399 --> 00:14:02,559 We're back picking up on your last point, Lorenzo. I 247 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,480 thought it was interesting again because I could not put 248 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:08,039 myself in the place of someone who didn't know where 249 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,399 the story was going. And it'll be interesting if any 250 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,000 of you listening had did watch this for the first time. 251 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:17,240 I would really be interested in hearing your thoughts on this, 252 00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:22,720 because I felt like kind of by the time you 253 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,159 got to Dunkirk. And I do think that scene went 254 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,039 on too long. It's one of the few criticisms I 255 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,720 have of the film is that the World War two 256 00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:34,639 France scenes just went on too long. And I actually 257 00:14:34,759 --> 00:14:38,360 might have wanted a little bit more of Briany at 258 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:41,480 the hospital and all that, or even Cecilia at the hospital. 259 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:47,279 Karen Knightley's character. But by the time you get to 260 00:14:47,399 --> 00:14:50,000 Dunkirk and they're wandering that beach and my god, that 261 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,399 scene did go on long. It's an impressively shot scene, 262 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,840 but it did go on along. You're starting to get 263 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,960 the sense of this is not going to be a romance, 264 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:01,200 like there's not to be a happy ending here. You 265 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,039 sort of get that sense. Am I wrong? 266 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,759 Speaker 2: Yeah? I again, if you haven't read the book, if 267 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:09,600 you watching the movie for the first time, you kind 268 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,799 of you want them to be together. 269 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:14,799 Speaker 1: Of course, wonderful together. You want them to. 270 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: Get together at some point, but you don't know if 271 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,320 that's going to happen, if one of them is going 272 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:20,840 to die. I mean, you keep wondering the whole time. 273 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,960 And I think the movie does a very good job. 274 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,200 And I don't know. Again, I haven't read the book. 275 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,559 Maybe the book has a like a whole chapter about 276 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:31,240 the you know, him going to war, But. 277 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,519 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately it's whether it works as in the 278 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:34,679 film or not. I thought it was. 279 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:37,639 Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting too, to give you some 280 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:39,919 perspective of what was going on at the time. I 281 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,600 think that's watching those scenes, I'm like, oh, holy shit, man. 282 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: I do think it's very good at reminding you. Yes, yes, 283 00:15:47,159 --> 00:15:49,440 you know, World War two was brutal as ship. It 284 00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:51,440 was incredibly. 285 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,159 Speaker 2: Broaching watching those scenes. What came to my mind was like, Wow, 286 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:56,440 you were in the pretty house and all of a sudden, 287 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,440 now you're you're taking care of dead bodies, you know, 288 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,039 because that's the reality of what happened. Right, So I 289 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:04,159 think the movie does a good job. 290 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: I actually really I know, apparently the scene with Briany 291 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:11,519 and the French soldier with the head wound in the hospital, 292 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:15,240 uh huh. The director had to fight to get that 293 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:18,559 in because, like you know, the the studio didn't think 294 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,840 there was a need for that scene, and maybe there 295 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:22,559 isn't a need for that scene, but I really did 296 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,720 think it was you know it. I think it's a 297 00:16:25,799 --> 00:16:28,480 necessary overall theme about the brutality of those years and 298 00:16:28,799 --> 00:16:30,559 what it did to the English people. 299 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: And also what she put Robbie through, you know. Yes, yeah, 300 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,360 I think that's a good point because she's she's looking 301 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,000 at what what what happened to those people? Yeah, and 302 00:16:39,399 --> 00:16:42,120 because of what she did, he's in that position. Now. 303 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the dress, and then we're 304 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,159 going to jump into talking about Briany, because that's my 305 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,759 overriding question here. Is Briany a villain or is she 306 00:16:54,039 --> 00:16:55,840 just a girl who made a terrible mistake? 307 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:01,039 Speaker 2: Don't get into that later. The dress, The dress, My god. 308 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:03,679 Speaker 1: I have written a lot about this dress. We wrote 309 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,759 a piece on it like six years ago on our site, 310 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,079 going to link to it. I don't have much more 311 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,480 to say that hasn't been said in that piece, but 312 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,279 I will point out Jacqueline Duran is the costume designer, 313 00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:20,000 and it's one of the few dresses on that has 314 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,039 its own Wikipedia entry. There's only about ten dresses. 315 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: It's insane. 316 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's fair to say it's one of 317 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,400 the most iconic gowns cinematic gowns of the twenty first century, 318 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,960 but I definitely I would also place it as one 319 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,720 of the most iconic gowns in cinema history period. One 320 00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:40,759 of the things that stands out about that gown is 321 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,839 you might not realize it because it feels so perfectly 322 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,799 of the moment, it's actually not. There's a lot about 323 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:49,920 that gown that no one in nineteen thirty five would 324 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,880 have broughtn has spaghetti straps, and that was not a 325 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,000 thing in nineteen thirty five. There's a laser cut lace 326 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,160 in the bodice, and obviously that wasn't a thing in 327 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,880 nineteen thirty five. The way it's gathered on the front 328 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,039 and everything, even the shape of the skirt, the shape 329 00:18:05,079 --> 00:18:07,720 of the skirt is extremely full for nineteen thirty If 330 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,279 you think of like gowns, like silk bias cut gowns 331 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:14,839 in nineteen thirty five, you're looking at like Carol Lombard 332 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,680 and Jean Harlow and those screen sirens, and those gowns 333 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:24,359 were sleek. I mean, Jean Harlowe famously, I'm gonna give 334 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,640 you a little bit of she had a shave or 335 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,079 bush because she couldn't wear she had to be naked 336 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,119 under those gowns, and they were so clingy that she 337 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,559 had to, you know, keep herself hair free down there. 338 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:39,559 That's how clingy those gowns were. Because of her Fabri 339 00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:42,559 has a lot of drape and flow. When she walks 340 00:18:42,599 --> 00:18:46,119 out of the front door and it is just billowing 341 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,640 around her. It's really not nineteen thirty five, but it's 342 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:53,279 a stunner the go it is. I mean, I mean, 343 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,240 she never looked more beautiful on film. My god, just 344 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,000 never ever total supermodel. In that moment, they don't even think. 345 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,400 I mean, obviously Karen Knightley's beautiful, but in that moment, 346 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,920 it's like, holy cow, I think cinematic professions. 347 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: She's a beautiful woman, but she's not like gorgeous, drop 348 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,920 dead like well people expect of, you know, that type 349 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,279 of beauty. But in that moment, in that moment, Johnny, 350 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:21,480 that shade of green is just perfection everything about everything 351 00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:21,839 about it. 352 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,319 Speaker 1: And if you want to get into symbolism, like that 353 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,400 green it evokes all of the grasses and wildlife that's 354 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:34,720 around her. But green also has a has a an 355 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,000 underlying implication of poison and also magic. So it's kind 356 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,599 of all bound up in in that color is that 357 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,559 there's the natural world, there is the magic of her, 358 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:48,400 just a vision of her right and the fact that 359 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,680 you know her life and his life are ruined after 360 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,359 she wears that gown. And one of the things I 361 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,960 pointed out when we wrote about that gown is anytime 362 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,720 you see someone pickin item, pick something out of a 363 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:04,160 closet and get dressed on camera, there's a reason for that. 364 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,839 They want you to look at that outfit. They want 365 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,759 you to understand that that outfit has meaning. Think of 366 00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:14,039 every makeover sen you ever saw that. There's a reason 367 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,039 you're shown her choosing and picking that dress. It's important. 368 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,000 And I also want to note I think the sex 369 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:27,599 scene is both very sexy and a little disturbing. And 370 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,319 it's sexy when you're in their perspective and when you 371 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,400 look at it from Briany's perspective. He does a very 372 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,359 good job of shooting that in a manner where you're like, 373 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:38,839 what the hell is going on there? 374 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 375 00:20:39,319 --> 00:20:41,559 Speaker 1: What like because a thirteen year old girl in nineteen 376 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:42,559 thirty five would not have. 377 00:20:42,599 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: Known, right, I do think, well, she makes a point 378 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,440 that she was in love with him, so I think 379 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,680 there's also that there's a little bit of jealousy there 380 00:20:50,759 --> 00:20:54,200 and why her and all that. I don't think she's 381 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,880 completely naive about the whole thing. I think she's a 382 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,839 child and misunderstood, you know, but you. 383 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Really think she didn't understand it was Bennetict Cumberbatch. No 384 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,240 until the wedding, because that's what it's implied. 385 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: No, I know she knew, she knew it wasn't him. 386 00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: She did that. 387 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: I think because she was pissed. She was annoyed as 388 00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:14,240 a child, she was annoyed. 389 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: I think there's a bit of that, But I don't 390 00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:22,000 know how deliberate she was in nineteen thirty five, And 391 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:24,559 I think, if you want to get into it, I 392 00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:28,720 don't think a thirteen year old girl in that setting, 393 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:30,960 in that time period, I don't think she should be 394 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:34,440 judged too harshly for making that kind of mistake, even 395 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,039 if it was caught up in her own feelings, in 396 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:41,119 her own sexual repression, which it clearly was. But my 397 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:44,519 take is everything she does after that, including right up 398 00:21:44,599 --> 00:21:49,279 until Vanessa Redgrave at the end, uh, huh, villain, don't. 399 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: I don't think she's a villain. I think she can't 400 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:55,079 deal with her guilt. I think, Okay, I think she 401 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,079 just can't. She can't come to terms with that, that 402 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,880 she's a reason why all that happened, you know. And 403 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,400 and and I think one of the uh, one of 404 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,680 the beautiful things about the movie, I think is that 405 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:13,240 if you haven't read the book, if you don't know anything, 406 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,279 you really believe that they got together. And that's a 407 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:18,839 I thought that was very clever. 408 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:21,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I believe I believed. 409 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:25,519 Speaker 2: And because you hate Brownie's character so much. I mean, 410 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:27,240 at least I did. I mean, I hated that girl 411 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,279 for doing what she did. Uh, you wanted a scene 412 00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:32,400 because I hate when movies don't give you a scene 413 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,440 when the people get confronted by something. I absolutely hate that. No, 414 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,920 I need that, I need. So I think that's very 415 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,880 clever that we got that. We got him to confront 416 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,599 her and talk about, you know, well, that shitty thing 417 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:46,440 she did. 418 00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:49,319 Speaker 1: And that was her choice to do it that way. Yes, 419 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:53,640 And to me, I think at the end of the film, 420 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,599 and I think a lot of this is in Red 421 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,319 Gregg's performance, because she's so good and she's so subtle. 422 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,880 I think there's a tremendous amount of delusion and shame 423 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,559 in that final choice. And I think when she's basically 424 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,200 appealing directly to the audience and saying I gave them that, 425 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,960 I gave them their happiness, and it's like, you, lying, 426 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:17,680 piece of shit. No, you didn't know. You didn't. You 427 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,200 wrote a happy ending so that your final book could 428 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,920 have a happy ending. If you were braver about it, 429 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,200 you would have put that in the book. But she didn't. 430 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,839 She waited until she was giving it her final interview 431 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,799 or whatever. And I thought that no. 432 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,599 Speaker 2: I thought that was weird that, like, Okay, you gave 433 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,279 a happy end in the book, but then you give 434 00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:35,920 the interview. 435 00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: I think she I think she felt I don't know. 436 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,920 Actually that's actually a good point. I think I don't 437 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,000 know if she was ever planning on telling the truth, 438 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,160 or if that was an impulse she had for her 439 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,200 final interview because she was dying. I think it should 440 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,599 be pointed out it was a clever choice, but you 441 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,400 have to sort of bring yourself out of the film 442 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,440 for a second to deal with it was to have 443 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,039 her have this hairstyle in all three eras, which is 444 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,119 not how people live. And that was very specifically a 445 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,039 little girl's hairstyle in nineteen thirty five, and by the 446 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:13,079 time you get to Vanessa Redgrave in like two thousand 447 00:24:13,079 --> 00:24:16,960 and seven or whatever, it looks ridiculous on her. And 448 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,519 that's the point, Like there was some It's one of 449 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:23,759 those examples that comes up when people criticize films for 450 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:28,279 giving a character the same hairstyle. But that woman was stuck. 451 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:32,119 She was stuck in nineteen thirty five and she never 452 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,640 moved past it. The guilt of that has literally crippled 453 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,400 her as a person. She is. She's broken at the end. 454 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,920 I think she's a really broken person. And I think 455 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,160 that is it's a multiple tragedy. It's like the tragedy 456 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,240 of Robbie and Cecilia and how they died and they 457 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,240 could never get together. But it's also the tragedy of Briany, 458 00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:53,799 who just was a broken person for her entire life, 459 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,039 who never ever moved past this much. I think it's the. 460 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: Movie's clever also, like when they she has the conversation 461 00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:05,079 with the two main characters, Robbie and Cecilia about coming clean, 462 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,160 you know, and telling the whole story and tell them, 463 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,119 telling everybody the whole story. But she can't do that 464 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,240 anymore because Juno Temple's character Lula is right, right, right. 465 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,279 So I think that's brilliant because okay, did obviously obviously 466 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,640 that didn't happen, But did you at some point had 467 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,759 the conversation with somebody, you know, to compleat They. 468 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: Don't tell you any of that. 469 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:27,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't tell you any of that, and you 470 00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:30,400 don't know, You really don't know what happened. The only 471 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,799 thing you know is that he went to Wars. She went. 472 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,759 She became a nurse to help and apparently they never met, right, 473 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:37,200 they never. 474 00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: I think you're supposed to believe that that scene, well, 475 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,119 I don't know. Yeah, Vanessa Redgrave at the end says, 476 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,920 I researched all the scenes that I was not present for. 477 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,640 I think the scene on the bus where they parted 478 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,839 ways happened. You must have happened, although I don't know 479 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,200 how Briany would have known about it unless there were letters. Right, 480 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:02,000 So I don't know. 481 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 2: It's not clear. 482 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: It's not clear. 483 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 2: It's not clear everything, right, That's why the Maeter the 484 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,839 country house is up for interpretation. You don't know what happened. 485 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,799 That's why I love them. And I mean, maybe I'll 486 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:16,720 read the book to find out how it's done in 487 00:26:16,759 --> 00:26:19,400 the book. I thought that was very clever because because 488 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,599 you kind of believe all that and then you find 489 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,359 out that that actually didn't happen, which makes things even sadder. 490 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:27,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, now that I think about it, that 491 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,839 scene of them saying goodbye when when she gets on 492 00:26:31,839 --> 00:26:36,839 the bus, it's so overly romantic, and like I said, 493 00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,319 it's such a cliche of English war films that it 494 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,200 probably didn't happen. No, it probably didn't happen. 495 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: Didn't. I don't think they ever met again. You're probably right. 496 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,039 Speaker 1: Although there were letters, weren't there, And in fact, they 497 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:54,359 showed they showed his friend in Dunkirk taking the letters, 498 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,640 and I think that must have been maybe she. 499 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe he got letters but never saw her. 500 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,759 Speaker 1: Right, I think they yes. But my point is might 501 00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:08,279 have indicated that they did. Oh you know what I mean, 502 00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:10,640 like they might that's maybe she read the letters. Yeah, 503 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,319 maybe she read because she talked about the country cottage 504 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,119 by the sea, and that was a literal postcard on 505 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,640 top of that pile of letters, and she would have 506 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,039 had to have seen those letters at some point. Interesting. 507 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,440 It's a very thought provoking film. 508 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 2: I thought it was a beautiful movie. I think it's 509 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,279 a beautiful movie. And yeah, it made me said a 510 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,640 couple of times, and actually it is. I was like, 511 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,359 this is really it's sad story, but very interesting, really 512 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,440 well done. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I did too 513 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,440 watching it again. 514 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: So we will have a piece up on the site 515 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,839 today unpacking some of this stuff further, with lots of 516 00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:50,319 pictures and that sort of thing. We'd love to hear 517 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,960 what you all thought of it, and we'll be back 518 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:56,279 next week. I'm sorry I didn't check the Bitter Kitten 519 00:27:56,839 --> 00:27:59,519 roster for next week. I can't remember what next week's 520 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:01,519 film is, but we'll be back next week. 521 00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna get but it isn't Abett's face. 522 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: Maybe it is by my favorite You're correct, it is 523 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,759 Babbett's face. Lorenzo's favorite film of all time. We did 524 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:16,720 Wings of Desire, which was my favorite film of all time. Yes, 525 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,960 all right, so we'll be back next week with Bibbett's face. 526 00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:20,799 Until then, take care of yourself. Love you mean it. 527 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:21,839 Speaker 2: Bye bye bye