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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and welcome and Forgotten Hollywood, your podcasts and

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<v Speaker 1>memories of yesteryear. My name is doug Hess and for

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<v Speaker 1>Tuna and Forgotten Hollywood for the first time. What I

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<v Speaker 1>do on this podcast is take you on a journey

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<v Speaker 1>back in time and share with you pieces of Hollywood

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<v Speaker 1>that you may or may not know about. And this

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<v Speaker 1>episode we have Tom Schabella back on and he is

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<v Speaker 1>here to talk about his latest book, King Kong Versus Godzilla,

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<v Speaker 1>the most colossal conflict the screen has ever known. Tom,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Forgotten Hollywood.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. When this

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<v Speaker 2>book was out and I started going through potential podcasts

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<v Speaker 2>to do and to do again, you know, obviously you're

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<v Speaker 2>at one of the top of my lists, so you

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<v Speaker 2>know it was. It was a lot of fun last time.

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<v Speaker 2>So and obviously it's a topic that I love talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, well, thank you for thinking of us. And like

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<v Speaker 1>I said, welcome back. And you know, as we do,

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<v Speaker 1>we always like to ask the author to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>give his own words of what this book is about.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so just a little bit of backstory on writing

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<v Speaker 2>the book. My original idea was to talk about well,

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<v Speaker 2>number one, I wanted to talk about monster movies. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I have two books out, one Primetime nineteen sixty six

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven, which is about the first season every show

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<v Speaker 2>is in color on primetime television, and then James Bond

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<v Speaker 2>in the sixty Spy Craze, which talked about James Bond

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<v Speaker 2>films of the sixties and all the subsequent knockoffs and

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<v Speaker 2>spoofs and everything in between. And I'm a big monster

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<v Speaker 2>movie fan. I'm just a giant monster movie fan, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's really my main focus of a lot of times.

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<v Speaker 2>And people always say to me, well, why didn't you

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<v Speaker 2>write a monster movie book? Why didn't write a book

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<v Speaker 2>about monster movies? And the first two it just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>work out that way. And I couldn't really think of

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<v Speaker 2>anything that hadn't been discussed to death. So I thought

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<v Speaker 2>monster rally films, so where multiple monsters are in the

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<v Speaker 2>same film, so Frankanstein meets the Wolfman, things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>and I started writing it and actually wrote quite a bit,

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<v Speaker 2>and I got to the Godzilla franchise and I got

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<v Speaker 2>to writing about King Kong and Godzilla, and I realized

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<v Speaker 2>it was taking up the majority of what I was doing,

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<v Speaker 2>so I quickly abandoned ship on that and I used

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<v Speaker 2>a I wound up using a lot of that previous

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<v Speaker 2>book in this one. But again, I just I just

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<v Speaker 2>need this. This was a story that needed to be

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<v Speaker 2>talked about. I think that it's something that certainly everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in some way, shape or form, they know maybe something

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<v Speaker 2>about the film. They at least know the characters, They

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<v Speaker 2>at least know at least they've heard of Godzilla, They've

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<v Speaker 2>at least heard of King Kong. So all the characters

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<v Speaker 2>in the film are I think have a gigantic Q score.

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<v Speaker 2>But maybe you've never seen the film, maybe you've never

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<v Speaker 2>really dove into it. And I also wanted to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about a singular topic, just one film, And much to

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<v Speaker 2>my surprise, there's never been a book written about just

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<v Speaker 2>specifically this film.

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<v Speaker 1>So here I am, which is kind of hard to

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<v Speaker 1>believe as long as King Kong and Godzilla has been

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<v Speaker 1>around and has really been a staple in movie history

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<v Speaker 1>or cinema, that it really hasn't been studied or really

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in such a format. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, obviously there's there's magazine articles. There were

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<v Speaker 2>even the Crestwood House books that I grew up with

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<v Speaker 2>where talked about monster movies and things like that. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there was never anything specific written about this off again

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<v Speaker 2>YouTube videos and essays and things like that, but never

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<v Speaker 2>a dedicated book.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Well, it's also kind of interesting, you know you

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<v Speaker 1>talk about King Kong and Gonzela and how it's or

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<v Speaker 1>how it's evolved over the years, you know, from the

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<v Speaker 1>silent movies up to here regionally in the two thousands,

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<v Speaker 1>and the impact that it's had on culture.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. Yeah, and that's one of the things that I

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely had to get into. I'm somebody, as just demonstrated,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm somebody that just can't tell you just the facts

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<v Speaker 2>of the story. I have to give you the prehistory

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<v Speaker 2>from the beginning of time till right now. Like I

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<v Speaker 2>have to say, well, there was a man named Thomas

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<v Speaker 2>Edison who invented now and so you know, I had

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<v Speaker 2>to get into that history of King Kong. That King Kong,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, was this Great Depression era monster and actually

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<v Speaker 2>signaled coming out of the Great Depression. It's it's signaled

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<v Speaker 2>that people started going to movies again, that that movies

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<v Speaker 2>could be these gala events once again, that that they

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<v Speaker 2>were not in the last you know, several years and

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<v Speaker 2>actually King Kong was released around the same time as

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<v Speaker 2>the inauguration of President Roosevelt, so you know, there was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a good feeling around the time. And then

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<v Speaker 2>getting into Godzilla, I felt like I needed to really

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<v Speaker 2>talk about that prehistory and the effects that the Japanese

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<v Speaker 2>were still feeling post war and tensions of the Cold

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<v Speaker 2>War and things like that, So I really had to

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<v Speaker 2>get into that. And also, again they're histories are just

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<v Speaker 2>strangely intertwined. Both movies well, obviously they got the Godzilla

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<v Speaker 2>creators were inspired by Kong, but both movies had a

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<v Speaker 2>very very quick turnaround for a sequel that it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>that great. And again, these two just just as as

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<v Speaker 2>I said multiple times in the book and on the

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<v Speaker 2>back and everything I said, you know, they were introduced

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<v Speaker 2>decades apart, two decades apart, two different continents, two different studios,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know these two were on a collision course

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<v Speaker 2>in history.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, you know, for me, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>seeing the original King Kong and the cem of the

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<v Speaker 1>cinema history, you know, climbing up the skyscraper and the

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<v Speaker 1>airplanes around it, and then you fast forward to Jessica

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<v Speaker 1>Ling's version in the seventies and how King Kong in

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<v Speaker 1>particular has changed, but it hasn't really changed, if that

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know, and certainly in all those years,

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<v Speaker 2>it again, Kong is something that it's an iconic character.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a New York You can't go to New York

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<v Speaker 2>without thinking, well, you know, okay, he was there. He

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<v Speaker 2>was on the Empire State Building. A few weeks ago.

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<v Speaker 2>I was in the city and I passed an elevated

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<v Speaker 2>train and I thought, maybe that's it. Maybe that's where

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<v Speaker 2>he came through. I'm not sure, or even with the

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<v Speaker 2>seventy sixth movie, you know, I don't I've never actually

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<v Speaker 2>been to Shea Stadium, but I was in that neighborhood,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple of years ago, and I thought, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>well King Colin was the area.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you're right. I mean, it's whether you're in

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<v Speaker 1>your nineties or if you're a teenager today, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>King Kong and Godzilla. It really just kind of speaks

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<v Speaker 1>to every generation. Every generation's kind of had their own

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<v Speaker 1>version of King Cong or Godzilla if you will, for

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<v Speaker 1>the most part. And it's just really interesting how after

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<v Speaker 1>all these years it's still an icon and something that

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<v Speaker 1>we can all relate to. I just hear that name.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And it's something that even those older films,

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<v Speaker 2>growing up watching them on TV or renting them or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever ever, I didn't care what year they were, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they're they're they're they're they're cool giant monsters

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<v Speaker 2>that uh, they you can watch. So you can watch

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<v Speaker 2>them on a lot of levels too. You can watch

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<v Speaker 2>it on a level of especially the early ones, especially

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<v Speaker 2>the early Godzilla is you can watch it as some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of political commentary or you could you just have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun with them. So I think that

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<v Speaker 2>that's certainly an age thing that that helps with with

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<v Speaker 2>certainly the Godzilla films and King Kong. Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of them are products of their time.

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't say a lot of them. Definitely, the thirty

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<v Speaker 2>three King Kong is a product of its time. You

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<v Speaker 2>could spot out things that are again New York or

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<v Speaker 2>great depression that that you could isolate. And then the

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<v Speaker 2>seventy six you know that that certainly has it has

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<v Speaker 2>a different feel to it now. And and also and

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<v Speaker 2>even Constole Island I thought was a cool movie, and

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<v Speaker 2>even though it was a period piece. They said it

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<v Speaker 2>during the Vietnam War, right, you know, you could still

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<v Speaker 2>make some correlations to modern day, you know, and the

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Jackson film was also a period piece and a remake.

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<v Speaker 1>But sure. Yeah, it's just really fascinating how it still

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<v Speaker 1>talks to us or we still have this interest in

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<v Speaker 1>it all these years later and it keeps coming back

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<v Speaker 1>up into our culture.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And when I I think it's really interesting when

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<v Speaker 2>I tell somebody that I wrote this book or it's

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<v Speaker 2>published or whatever, just the amount of people that, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm buying it for Christmas from my uncle

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<v Speaker 2>who really likes it. Just just you know, everybody has

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<v Speaker 2>somebody in their family that really loves these movies that

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<v Speaker 2>would find them interesting. And you know, yeah, that's that's

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<v Speaker 2>really the cool thing about it, you know, where I

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<v Speaker 2>think it has this class iconic lineage where you people

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<v Speaker 2>just and they're they're they're interesting films uh to uh

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about, and interesting films too, and certainly interesting

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<v Speaker 2>films to read about. And the one thing that uh,

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<v Speaker 2>I've said a couple of times so far, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in any interview that I've done, I said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>at one point, I I at one point I was

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<v Speaker 2>writing this book, and I thought, well, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to talk about the fact that people

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<v Speaker 2>believe that there are two endings of this movie. It's

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<v Speaker 2>been done to death. It's it's people have talked about

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<v Speaker 2>it for one hundred years and or you know, one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred years. Yeah, you know city however long and it

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna maybe blaze over it really quick. And

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<v Speaker 2>anytime I was telling somebody I was writing this book, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you're you going to talk about the two endings? Are

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<v Speaker 2>there really two endings? Are there two endings of this movie?

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought, well, oh, okay, well I guess I

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<v Speaker 2>have to. And I certainly remember renting this movie and thinking, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I wonder, I wonder what ending I'm going to get,

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<v Speaker 2>not realizing I'm watching a movie in English. But but yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and and so long story short, there's not

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<v Speaker 2>but uh somewhat, in the American version you hear both wars.

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<v Speaker 2>In the Japanese version you do only hear Godzilla. However,

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<v Speaker 2>the other thing that I found pretty interesting about that

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<v Speaker 2>oftentimes it's compare. It's brought up that the the suit

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<v Speaker 2>actors who played King Kong Godzilla watched professional wrestling beforehand

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<v Speaker 2>and said, okay, well we can kind of do something

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<v Speaker 2>like this. We could, we could do this. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>often been things written about the movie that says, well,

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong is this, you know, represents America and Godzilla

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<v Speaker 2>represents Japan in the film. And but if you watch it,

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<v Speaker 2>even the Japanese version, if you watch it with Japanese subtitles,

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<v Speaker 2>if you know Japanese, which I don't, Godzilla is clearly

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<v Speaker 2>the bad guy. Clearly, clearly the bad guy. There's anybody

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<v Speaker 2>who's ever written that has no idea what they're talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>And Japanese Japanese professional wrestling, which I happen to be

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<v Speaker 2>also a fan of.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a trope called the guid Gin and it's an

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<v Speaker 2>outside America, like a big American that comes in so

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<v Speaker 2>in the late seventies, early eighties, like hul Cogan before

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<v Speaker 2>he got to be you know, big, was the guidge it.

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<v Speaker 2>He was the evil foreigner coming in. And they still

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<v Speaker 2>do it to this day. There's evil foreigners who come

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<v Speaker 2>in every single day to take out you know, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not the formula. In this movie. King Kong is there

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<v Speaker 2>to defend against Godzilla, which later Godzilla kind of becomes

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<v Speaker 2>the national monster of Japan, which which I thought was

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting, and I really dive into this whole thing

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<v Speaker 2>and again and on both continents, this movie is sold

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<v Speaker 2>as a big fight. You know, come see the big fight.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a it's a heavyweight fight. So I thought that

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<v Speaker 2>that was really cool in the marketing, and one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that I really liked diving into with this book,

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<v Speaker 2>and one thing that I really dove into was the

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<v Speaker 2>marketing films that it was paired with at times. So

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<v Speaker 2>pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 1>You've kind of hinted about this already, but just going

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<v Speaker 1>to elaborate a little bit more. What surprised you during

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<v Speaker 1>the writing and the research of this book.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, certainly that the amount of and again and and

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<v Speaker 2>it's something that I never really paid attention to when

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<v Speaker 2>when watching the film versus reading things. I kind of said, yeah, okay, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Godzilla's this ah national monster of Japan, and

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<v Speaker 2>it clearly was not at the time. How long it

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<v Speaker 2>played I thought was really interesting. Just how long it played,

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<v Speaker 2>it well into the seventies, it played a drive ins

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<v Speaker 2>and kitty matinees and things like that. Just how well

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<v Speaker 2>it was received, you know, by by audiences for ten

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<v Speaker 2>plus years. You know, I thought was extremely interesting. How

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<v Speaker 2>the movie really influenced future Godzilla movies, I thought was

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<v Speaker 2>extremely interesting. And in the book, I have an inter

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<v Speaker 2>interview with Linda Miller, who she played in the movie

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong Escapes, which was the second Toho Studios King

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<v Speaker 2>Kong movie, which has nothing to do with King congresus Godzilla.

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<v Speaker 2>They made a five year agreement with r KO to

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<v Speaker 2>make King Kong movies and they only made two, which

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't make any sense to me. If you told me, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you can make Godzilla movies for five or King Kong

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<v Speaker 2>movies for five years, I'd be making every type of

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong movie. I can positive King Kong Go's to space,

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong underwater, I don't know King Congress is whoever.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be making him fight everybody for five years. But

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<v Speaker 2>they only made me. And I was nineteen fifty sixty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, she's lived in the United States and

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<v Speaker 2>for decades had zero idea that people were a looking

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<v Speaker 2>for her, b had any interest in this movie. She

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<v Speaker 2>was completely oblivious to any of this, and then fairly

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<v Speaker 2>recently was contacted and asked to come to conventions and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that. And so she gave me a really

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<v Speaker 2>great interview. She was talked to me for a couple

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<v Speaker 2>hours wow, and just talked about her career and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that. But the reason why I included her in

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<v Speaker 2>the book was because that she could really give some

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<v Speaker 2>insight to how things worked at Toho Studios. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's one of the few actresses in Hollywood to say

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<v Speaker 2>that they were the King Kong's Desire long story short,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the she she was held in King Kong's hand.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So, uh so I thought that that was was really

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<v Speaker 2>really really cool to talk about, and again that that

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<v Speaker 2>gave me some some really cool insight. And uh, I

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<v Speaker 2>never did an interview for a book before. I've done

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<v Speaker 2>it for magazine articles and things like that, but never

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<v Speaker 2>never in a book. And I thought that this was

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<v Speaker 2>a important thing to include because I had the resource there,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And everybody said, no, she's great, she's plug

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<v Speaker 2>and play. She'll just you know, she'll she'll answer any

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<v Speaker 2>questions and and and you know, and she was in

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<v Speaker 2>uh she has speaking roles in one movie that she

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<v Speaker 2>was in, The Green Slime, And then she was on

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<v Speaker 2>a show in Japan and an episode of My Three Sons,

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<v Speaker 2>So her acting career is not where well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she could kind of get confused of which set she

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<v Speaker 2>was on, right, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's gonna get hard to confuse.

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<v Speaker 2>Those right, Yeah, she was low but yeah it was

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<v Speaker 2>The Green Slam was a real low budget movie. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Tellho is a big budget movie. King Kong for Christ's

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<v Speaker 2>Sake and My Three Sons, I don't think so.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, well, Tom, I know we're getting closer on time.

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<v Speaker 1>But one last question before we let you go was,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, here we are in twenty twenty five, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>looking your crystal ball, where do you think this King

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<v Speaker 1>cong versus Godzilla? Do you think we'll see more remakes

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<v Speaker 1>in the futures or yeah, why do you think this

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<v Speaker 1>franchise goes?

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's definitely going to be more into in

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<v Speaker 2>the legendary franchise. I I don't see Kong in the

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<v Speaker 2>Japanese side of things, even though they probably could. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that I don't see it. I see them kind

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<v Speaker 2>of going a different direction with with their style of films.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems to be a little bit more serious, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess for lack of a better term, but you know again,

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<v Speaker 2>that could change, you know, they could have could decide

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<v Speaker 2>to make some type of monster rally film. I see

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<v Speaker 2>right now, I see a lot of rumors swirling of

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<v Speaker 2>does Godzilla fight another monster in h I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>called Godzilla minus zero. I think it's the new film.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I've heard King Adora, I've heard the Smog Monster.

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard Oh Mathra, heard a lot of of Meca Godzilla.

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<v Speaker 2>I've I've heard a lot of of rumors. Uh. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think anybody knows, but you know those those

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<v Speaker 2>are the rumors going on right now as we speak.

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<v Speaker 2>So uh yeah, I mean I definitely see a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of remakes. There's definitely a lot of room. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, criminal to me that it took them

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<v Speaker 2>then that long to make it. Uh so you know,

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<v Speaker 2>finally we're we're here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the way with you know AI and the

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<v Speaker 1>green screens and all the visual effects. I can only

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<v Speaker 1>see it getting more intense and better when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to that, which will probably bring out more audience members

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>The one thing that I do note in my book

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<v Speaker 2>also with those films versus you know, this current film,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was. Leonard Malton pointed out at one point,

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<v Speaker 2>even though something computer generated, you it looks real, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know it's fake. Where a man in a suit

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<v Speaker 2>it looks fake, but you know it's real. I know

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<v Speaker 2>I can go and touch that monster. The Also, these

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<v Speaker 2>films I think bring us and King Kong and Godzilla

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<v Speaker 2>has done this time and time again where the worst

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<v Speaker 2>times in history, they have certainly helped you. Like I said,

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong coming out of the depression, Godzilla in Japan

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<v Speaker 2>coming out of World War two, King Congress. Godzilla was

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<v Speaker 2>was released in the United States shortly after the Kennedy assassination,

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<v Speaker 2>and we saw King Kong versus Godzilla or Godzilla versus

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<v Speaker 2>King Kong released. You know, it was the first movie

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<v Speaker 2>I saw post COVID. You know, it was the first

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<v Speaker 2>movie I saw in the theater. You know, this was

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<v Speaker 2>that was the first time it was you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>kind of said, well, it may be safe to go

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<v Speaker 2>to the theater. So it was certainly time and time

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<v Speaker 2>again when we're given some type of tragedy in life

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<v Speaker 2>or anything like that, a national tragedy and national uh

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<v Speaker 2>something to overcome. King Kong and Godzilla have been there

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<v Speaker 2>for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is kind of weird to think that's com pretty right. Well, Tom,

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<v Speaker 1>as always, thank you so much for coming on and

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<v Speaker 1>spending some time with us. To our listeners, please go

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<v Speaker 1>either go to your local bookstore or go on wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you purchase your books and get a copy of King

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<v Speaker 1>Coong Versus Godzilla, The most colossal conflict the screen is

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<v Speaker 1>ever known. We just touched the tip of the iceberg.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you're into monster movies or horror films, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 1>this book is going to be right up your alley

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<v Speaker 1>and so we strongly recommend that you go out and

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<v Speaker 1>get a copy of this book. And again, Tom, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for coming on spending some time with

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<v Speaker 1>us today.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. And again, yeah, wherever find books are sold,

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00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.200
<v Speaker 2>it's available everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely well. Again, thank you for listening to this episode

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<v Speaker 1>of Forgot in Hollywood. Just search for dougcast forgott in Hollywood.

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<v Speaker 1>You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram at hest

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00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:36.519
<v Speaker 1>dog fourteen. If you're listening to this podcast on iTunes

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00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.759
<v Speaker 1>another podcast service, please subscribe, rate and review this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>Tune in next time for let us episode of Forgotten Hollywood.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening and we will see you then