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Chumba Casino dot com. 23 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:04.439 Bilbergen thereedilypod wherever heb I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. 24 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.239 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 25 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.359 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:25.719 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 27 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:34.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:36.959 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.519 Good Evening, twenty five years on Florida's first serial killer, GJ. 31 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.359 Schaeffer returns with a new expanded volume of illustrated killer 32 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.079 fiction featuring the stories used a convictim of double murder 33 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:03.200 in nineteen seventy three. The ex cop and serial killer 34 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:05.959 was doing two life sentences for the murder of two 35 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:10.039 teenage girls when he himself murdered in nineteen ninety five. 36 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:13.919 Sondra London first published a collection of these stories in 37 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.080 nineteen eighty nine under the infroter of media. Queen Feral 38 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:23.039 House published Killer Fiction in nineteen ninety seven. Now comes 39 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.919 the new expanded collection that also includes the story Schaefer 40 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:31.439 wrote in prison for Sondra London seventy three. Illustrations include 41 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:34.520 drawings by Schafer seized by police in nineteen seventy three 42 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:39.439 and uses evidence to convict him of murder. Impressionistic sketches 43 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:44.319 of Schaeffer by Sondra London and facsimiles of his handwritten statements. 44 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.719 The book that were featuring this evening is Beyond Killer 45 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:53.520 Fiction Rogue Copp with my special guest, investigative journalist and author, 46 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.400 Sondra London. Welcome back to the program, and thank you 47 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.879 very much for this interview. Sondra London. 48 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:03.759 I'm so pleased to talk to you, Dan. You're always 49 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:04.840 such a good interviewer. 50 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:06.759 Oh, thank you so much. 51 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:11.840 You were also the most fascinating and interesting and controversial 52 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.000 guest a person can imagine to have, and I thank 53 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:20.479 you for that. Let's talk about how you came to 54 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:24.360 be involved with this book Beyond Killer Fiction. 55 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:34.280 Where should I start? Yes? Should I start with meeting Schaefer? Yeah? 56 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:36.759 Start with the Well, obviously we have to for those 57 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:39.280 people that don't know that story when you first met 58 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.280 him when you were seventeen and he was eighteen, tell 59 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.439 us about that and what happened nine years later, and 60 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:47.080 what happened twenty five years. 61 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:53.360 Later, like everything? Yes, yes, all right, Well we'll just 62 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:56.319 take him one step at a time. And Dan I 63 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.599 was a kid. I went Strayahan High in Fort Lauderdale, 64 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.159 and I had a steady boyfriend for a year, and 65 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.599 we went to a dance like we often did, and 66 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.520 there was this handsome guy. I never saw him before. 67 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:14.280 The reason for that was he went to the Saint 68 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:20.040 Thomas Aquinas Catholic School. So he had a date a 69 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.680 girl who went to my school, and he was there, 70 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:26.040 but he kept looking at me. And so there I 71 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.279 stood there at the punch bowl and he came up. 72 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.319 It sounds a kind of corny and cliche, but it 73 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.839 did happen that way. And he came up and chatted 74 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.920 me up, and he got my name but not my 75 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:45.720 phone number, and we both went back to our respective 76 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.639 dates and continued the evening. But he went home and 77 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.720 he looked up in the phone book every name with 78 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.680 that last name and called them until he found me. 79 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:58.879 And so what I like to say about that is 80 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.240 that was the first I'd been pursued by a serial killer, 81 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:04.959 but it wasn't going to be the last. 82 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:16.639 So you talk about this relationship, and despite what people 83 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.079 might think for the reason for breaking up, what was 84 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.680 the reason for breaking up and what was characteristic of 85 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.360 the relationship in terms of what he would have to 86 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:28.759 offer in this relationship. 87 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:35.759 John was a good looking called to six foot two, 88 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.360 and he was physically fit. He had blond hair, blue eyes. 89 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:45.600 He had been very social before he dated me. His 90 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:49.120 girlfriend was a socialite and he was her escort to 91 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:53.560 all the upper class functions of family. Belonged to the 92 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:57.360 yacht club and the country club. And he was a 93 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:02.519 Catholic boy, went to Catholic school and did masks every day, 94 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:06.720 seven days a week. He went to Mass and so 95 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:11.079 he was outdoorsman. He loved to go out. The family 96 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.319 had a boat and loved to go out on the 97 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:17.720 boat and go fishing and go hunting. His father and 98 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:22.360 his brother also did. And we did a lot of 99 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:27.600 normal things that kids do dating, went to the dances, 100 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.800 in the football games, and went to the beach. We 101 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.480 were in Fort Lauderdale, so going to the beach is big. 102 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.160 The thing was a little different when John was all 103 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.920 this outdoor stuff, which I never really that was not 104 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.920 part of my interests or anyone I ever knew, So 105 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.120 that was new. And he would take me out in 106 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.319 the Everglades and go hunting or He took me out 107 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:58.680 on a thing people might recognize called Whiskey Creek. In 108 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:04.639 the beach, there's usually a little strip of water that's 109 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:10.120 behind the sceand it's like a tidewater pool, but down 110 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:12.560 there it's called Whiskey Creek. They used to use it 111 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.720 for Moonshine took me out there. We were supposed to 112 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:22.399 be out there and come back, But the way I 113 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:26.600 heard it was he got the information wrong about when 114 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.079 the tide was out. So the tide went out and 115 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:34.040 we couldn't come home and stuck at Whiskey Creek in 116 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.199 his boat came home. That was a little stress over that, 117 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:43.240 and I thought, you know, there was really nothing creepy 118 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:48.560 about it. Nothing happened bad. But I think back and 119 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:51.680 I just wonder, you know that, really there's something wrong 120 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.920 with that. Because he was so attuned to the outdoors, 121 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.000 the weather and knowing when the tide comes in. It's 122 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:05.279 kind of base. And the more I learned about John later, 123 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.240 the more began to look back on and examine what 124 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:11.839 I went through. And I learned that John would pact 125 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:17.759 people and he would find out what they were like, 126 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.959 and then he would treat them accordingly. So it could 127 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.519 be that that little interlude we had at on Miskey 128 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.079 Creek could have ended differently. But I was a good girl. 129 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.440 I was a nice girl. I was a virgin, and 130 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.320 unbeknownst to me, when we're getting to know each other 131 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.559 and talking about, oh I like this, I like that, 132 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:44.159 or you know, whatever people do in their meeting, that 133 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:49.440 he was profiling me. And what he would say later 134 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:54.320 was I'd offer a girl twenty bucks for a blowjob, 135 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.639 and she took it. She was dead meat. He had 136 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:03.360 a complex virgin horror or complex. So I was switched 137 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.480 called the virgin, so I was really safe from him, 138 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:13.600 from the things that obsessed him. I didn't see them. 139 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:18.159 And I think it's important to realize that a serial 140 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:22.799 killer is not like a regular killer. He's able to 141 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.559 rack up all of those scores because he can pass 142 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:31.759 for normal, and he can mix with people and not 143 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:36.080 attract the kind of attention that we we like to 144 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:40.039 think that we can tell when someone's a wrong number. Right, 145 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:43.039 he'd like to say, Oh, man, you know, I got 146 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:47.759 a sense for people there that are off and that's 147 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:51.559 why serial killers are so rare. You know, people talk 148 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:57.279 like that are talking about regular offenders. If you will 149 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:02.600 just plain disturbed people, but a serial killer masks that 150 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.519 and you don't see it. And so that set for 151 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.440 me later when I found out about his primes none 152 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:14.799 years later, it set up for me the mystery of 153 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.279 how in the world I spent a year with this 154 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:19.360 guy and we were as close as can be. We 155 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.240 were steady boy from and girlfriend knewly Minzuela as you 156 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:27.600 can know anyone, and at the same time he had 157 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:31.159 this whole other life going on. So that was the 158 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:39.919 mystery that determined my going into this issue than in 159 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:44.320 nineteen eighty nine to really to face up to it 160 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:50.600 and try to come to terms with the With my experience. 161 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:55.039 You were an accomplished writer, but you, as you write, 162 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:58.200 you were a technical writer, and you were looking and 163 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.840 longing for something other than this technical writing to get 164 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:08.000 your teeth into. So in nineteen eighty nine you looked 165 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:13.399 at the writing situation, I mean, the reality of writing 166 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.279 for yourself. Tell us about this correspondence, how you initiated 167 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:21.559 this correspondence with Sheriffy. Tell us a little bit about 168 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:23.120 the first Okay meeting. 169 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.360 It was after nineteen eighty eight, So nineteen eighty eight, 170 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.759 people who were into business know was a terrible year 171 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.360 for business. I never knew that. I thought it was 172 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.559 just me, okay, and I was smart, but I was 173 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.759 not worldly, and I just thought I had always gone 174 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.960 and pitched my services and got the job immediately. And 175 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.720 then I spent that whole year wasn't happening. So I 176 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.840 continually searching myself for what was I doing wrong and 177 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.679 what can I do right? And in the midst of that, 178 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:04.399 they executed. And I noticed on the media everything was Bundy, Bundy, Bunny, 179 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:07.919 and everything was serial killers, serial killers. So I bought 180 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:13.000 that book by Anne Rule and read it and said 181 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.799 him and I did not think that she was that 182 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.679 good of a writer, and I did not think from 183 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.360 her story that she knew that fellow that well. And 184 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.720 I said to myself, I can write better than that. 185 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.879 Number one. Number two, I knew a serial killer a 186 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.360 lot more than she did, and maybe I'll write about that. 187 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:39.840 So I looked up to the police, sheriffs and the 188 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:44.200 Port Lauderdale police, Brown County. I called them and I said, 189 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:49.399 you got a Geword shaper down there in prison, and 190 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.759 I was thinking of contacting him, but I wanted to 191 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.519 find out did he ever kill that girl? That lived 192 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.639 by him, Lee hang Aline, and the police looked and 193 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.720 they came back. Now you see that's not someone who 194 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.360 knows anything, right, it's just someone who's sitting on a desk. 195 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:11.200 Sure, So they go and. 196 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.480 They consult something, and they come back and they say, no, 197 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.679 he did not kill anyone named Lee Hainline. Well guess what. 198 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.679 Right before he killed her, she'd married another guy. So 199 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.519 they had her on the record is Bonadies, Lee bonadiese. 200 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.759 But I didn't ask him if he killed Lee Bonadies. 201 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.399 I asked him if he killed Lee Hainline, and they 202 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.559 said no. And so I said, well, all that talking 203 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.519 he did to me about her, that was nothing, And 204 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.519 I'm just gonna go ahead and contact him. So I 205 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:50.879 believe if I had confirmed that he was a suspect 206 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.200 in the disappearance of Lee Hainline, that I would not 207 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.600 have contacted him. But I did. 208 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:04.759 Tell us about that first reconnection. It had been twenty 209 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:05.360 five years. 210 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.720 I know, it's terrible. So I wrote and I said, 211 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.559 do you remember me? And I'm a writer now and 212 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:15.679 would you like to write a book about your life 213 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.080 and crimes? And he wrote back, of course I remember you. 214 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.799 How could I forget you? My love for you burned 215 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.720 with a cold blue flame, and he was off to 216 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:29.559 the races. So an answer to my question, oh, yes, 217 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.320 very much, he would like to engage in any kind 218 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.480 of project with me because he was still obsessed with me. 219 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.200 He said, I loved you, then, I love you now, 220 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.440 all this kind of stuff. So, at any rate, looked 221 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:47.879 like the deal was on. So he proceeded to exchange letters. 222 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:53.480 And the working premise was I asked him, you know, 223 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.440 when you got arrested, there were all those stories, and 224 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:01.360 I said, do you still write that stuff? Yeah? And 225 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.399 he or, well, yeah, And then it started a whole 226 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:14.279 new deluge of this activity that Schaeffer liked to engage in, 227 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:21.919 involving writing. So we have those stories he wrote for me, 228 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.919 or maybe I should say at me, at you, he 229 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:32.679 hurled them at me. Let me explain what I see 230 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:40.159 going on here. It's a perversion that is analogous to lawyerism. 231 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:46.440 I'm sorry, exhibitionism. I'm sorry, I said, the only thing exhibitionism. 232 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:52.720 And so he sits there and he creates this appalling, shocking, 233 00:15:52.960 --> 00:16:00.559 disgusting scenario that appeals to his perversions, and then he 234 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:02.360 packs it up and he sends it to you, and 235 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.480 then he sits there and just grins, thinking about how 236 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.879 this is going to hit you, because it does hit you. 237 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.919 The things that he wrote for me in that book 238 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:21.240 are assaultive, palpably assaultive. Okay, it hurts to read it. 239 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.480 I don't recommend this book. Let me say start right 240 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:27.279 off here. I don't recommend this book for anyone who 241 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:32.000 is tenderhearted, or anyone who just like me, wants to 242 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.120 have fun. You know, girls just want to have fun. 243 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.200 Don't read this book. This is for people who are 244 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.679 very serious about trying to learn about the pathology that 245 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:47.039 creates these violent crimes. It occurs in the mind. And 246 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.519 we have gone deeper in this book than anyone ever has. 247 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.600 And I've had many people review this work and say that, 248 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.200 not just me. I wouldn't dare say that, because how 249 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.120 would I know. But since it's been out, there's been 250 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.880 all kind of reviews where they have said it's more 251 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:10.240 explicit horrifying than Marquis de Sade. And there really isn't 252 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:16.000 anything more depraved or explicit than this book. And so 253 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:18.519 you have to understand what the nature of it is. 254 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.799 And if you come to read this book, you have 255 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.839 to know what you're doing. Okay, this is not like 256 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.839 a Disney rider. You get it on and you louuh, 257 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.359 that's fine. This is the real thing. We're talking about 258 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:36.799 the kind of minds that are still walking around, and 259 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.680 that is the kind of things that they are thinking, 260 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.720 and we don't like to hear it. But I agree 261 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.559 with Shaeffer. It with Shaeffer's esthetic that he taught me, 262 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.759 and now I agree with him that it serves the 263 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:59.799 public better to go with the disgusting viol explicit repulse. 264 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:07.359 They've horrifying true thinking. You are better served to know 265 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:13.759 that than you are to read some disneyfied version, because 266 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.119 all that can do is ttilate you and give you 267 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:24.039 the wrong idea of what violence is all about. It 268 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:32.519 makes it seem like recreational entertainment that anyone could participate 269 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.759 in by cleaning it up and expregating it. And so 270 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.599 I went the other way. I put everything in there 271 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:45.200 that you don't want to hear. And I experienced a 272 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:51.680 lot of trauma working on this project. I got over 273 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.240 it by getting over it. It got through it. I 274 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.839 did it. I closed the book, I went on with 275 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.160 my life, and I got better. Now I'm deep into 276 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:08.200 it again and It's just like a psychological reenactment of 277 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:13.319 a trauma, because I feel it again. I feel traumatized 278 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:15.079 working on this now. 279 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:21.079 So you talk about the trauma and I can understand that, 280 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:25.519 I can comprehend it. This is very hard to read. 281 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.079 It's incredibly hard to read. Yeah, the thing is, who 282 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.079 had you had the power to direct this book project? 283 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:33.799 Yeah? Why was it? 284 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.519 Why was it important for him? It seems to direct 285 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.759 this book project and its contents. 286 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.039 Oh, well for him, I think he was acting under it, 287 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.279 but like an obsessive, compulsive type of a syndrome. And again, 288 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.640 it's a perversion. It's just like exhibitionism. It's like, oh, 289 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:56.279 she wants to know about my filthy mind. Well look 290 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:01.240 the the you know, open up the trench coat and 291 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:05.400 show you. Because you asked that you wanted to know. 292 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.160 And we had a lot of arguments and I'm going 293 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.039 to be including them in my next volume. My next 294 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:14.279 volume goes into the true story of George John Schaeffer. 295 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.599 This volume is limited to the fiction that he wrote 296 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:20.160 at one time or another, and the next one I'm 297 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:23.400 going to include some of the dialogues that we went 298 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.839 through back and forth between writer and editor about what 299 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:36.200 I would allow him to do, so there were limits drawn. 300 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.960 There are things that he sent me that I refused 301 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:45.039 to publish, and I'll just say briefly because I don't 302 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:50.400 like to dwell on it. He was obsessed with defecation. 303 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:55.720 It's a very primitive and very regressive kind of obsession 304 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.279 and disgusting and I always explained to him that that's 305 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:05.079 disgusting and that he can write about murder or anything. 306 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.279 But when he starts going on and on and on 307 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:12.839 about toilet functions, I'm just like John, I'm not going 308 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.160 to publish this, Okay. We don't want to read that. 309 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:21.160 We are grown up. We don't we're not interested in 310 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:26.599 PPKKA Okay, So you can be assured that what he 311 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.960 actually wrote had a lot more of that than it. However, 312 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.519 I did allow and that wait, we argued fought so 313 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.000 much that he got real canny, and he'd work it 314 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:40.519 into the plot where it had to be in there, 315 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.519 right because I say, it's just good too, because you 316 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.039 spent the first five pages of the story with them 317 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:50.839 sitting in the bathroom and taking a poop, you know 318 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:54.640 what I mean. It's just infantile. We don't want to 319 00:21:54.720 --> 00:22:00.519 read it. Nobody does. Well, that's when we went through writing. 320 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:08.359 Now, normally, normally you are a serious nonfiction writer, exactly. 321 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.279 And now with that, when you deal with these people 322 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:17.160 that are self aggrandizing and also prone to exaggeration and 323 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:23.920 outright lies for various reasons, normally the journalist in you, 324 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.079 or any journalist would would strive for some kind of 325 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:31.839 baseline for honesty to establish that some of this stuff 326 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:36.039 is honest. But that's also complicated by the fact that 327 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:41.039 some of these stories that are in this book were 328 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.319 used to convict him of murder somehow, somehow. 329 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:52.440 It really delves into that shadow world between what really 330 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:57.759 happened and the ideas or the expressions coming out of 331 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.880 this sick mind. And that is why when I went back, 332 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.359 I didn't mean to make two new books. I meant 333 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.440 to make one new book. But it's just too many 334 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.799 pages and it's just too much material. And when I 335 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.960 worked with the Shaeffer during the time I worked with 336 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.640 him on this original project, you know, I accumulated a huge, 337 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:23.200 massive amount of data and I could only put out 338 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.079 one book, and I could only tolerate so much of this, 339 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.920 and I was having hurt to just get that book 340 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.640 out and just get it off off of my desk 341 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.759 and out of my daily schedule so I didn't have 342 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:43.839 to deal with it. So I put it out one 343 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.640 book full of stuff. I put out one book full 344 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.480 of stuff. So of all this other stuff. So now, 345 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:59.640 given the study of Shaffer's mind in this reciprocal arrangement, 346 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:05.799 given that, next we move on to the next volume 347 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.160 where we do examine what is on the record, and 348 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.920 we go over exactly what he did claim and then 349 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:18.000 what was actually found and what is supported by other evidence. 350 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.400 And we came to the part with my little game 351 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.319 with him. I provoked him. I kept telling him to 352 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.039 write more, and oh, he was such a great writer, 353 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.720 and let's see more. And really every day it was 354 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.079 hurting me so much, and it was so painful and 355 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.160 it was so difficult, but the tap was running, and 356 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:44.000 I felt that this was valuable information, even if I 357 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.519 was unable to analyze it as such at the time, 358 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.400 I was able to get the information. So I kept 359 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:56.119 it going as long as I could, collected as much 360 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.119 as I could, and try to use that to kind 361 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.720 of work found it. So we getting into the spirit 362 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:07.119 of all this. As things went on, he you know, 363 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.920 here's something I haven't mentioned in this interview yet. Shaeffer 364 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:19.559 had two stories that he required me to maintain at 365 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:28.039 all times, two opposite stories. He would would go on 366 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.200 and on and on about how he was an innocent 367 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:36.759 framed ex coup who got framed because he knew about 368 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:42.160 a dope dealing in the high places, and he was 369 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:46.279 just a creative writer and he wrote really good creative 370 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.720 writing that made people think it was real. That was 371 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.440 one story. The other story was he was what he 372 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:57.519 liked to quote the the DA and the headlines saying 373 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:01.480 that he was the greatest killer of in this century. 374 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.400 And he would say that, you know, I'm the greatest, 375 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.480 you know, and you've got the real thing, you know, 376 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.200 and oh I've beat a whoors to a bloody pulp, 377 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.079 you know. And he would go on and on and 378 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:22.480 say all these affirmative statements about incriminating himself literally. But 379 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.319 then when I would he would hear me saying that 380 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:28.119 he was a serial killer, he would lose his mind 381 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:32.200 and go into an absolute rage and want me killed 382 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:36.359 and my daughter killed, and he files suit against me 383 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:41.039 because he's not a serial killer. He filed suit against 384 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:48.519 Colin Wilson, against Mike Newton against Harold Schechter against I 385 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.440 can't think of the other guard's name, but another truck 386 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:56.400 grime author and everyone for calling him a serial killer. 387 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.519 But he was also you know, saying you was he? 388 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.839 So I collected when he sued me, I collected five 389 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.400 hundred pages of his handwritten statements and made a document 390 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:16.720 I called the five hundred pages, and I attached to 391 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.599 my response to the lawsuit to bring it to the 392 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.160 attention of the judge and say, this is what we're 393 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:27.039 dealing with here, judge, and I need you to look 394 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.519 over at this. And this man has made all of 395 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:35.119 these statements freely of his own will. And that's my response. 396 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:38.759 And I refused to be drawn to be required to 397 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:41.359 come to court where he is. You know. He wanted 398 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.720 me to come to court, you know, and I refuse 399 00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:45.680 to do that. But I need you to review this, 400 00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:49.559 your honor, thank you, and your honor just threw it out, 401 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:53.519