WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:06.400 You are listening to Redefining Energy. 2 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:12.400 Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Reave and from London Lauren. 3 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:16.280 Sag Today on Redefining Energy, We're going to talk about 4 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.440 connecting North America and Europe with a very long power 5 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.760 cable and to do that, I've got my two partners 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.399 in this venture, Lauren and Simon on a call, So 7 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:29.359 let's go. 8 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:35.439 The idea originally came in October twenty two after the 9 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:39.399 pipelines were blown up and all Ukraine situations, and that 10 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:43.399 showed that you can only rely on allies for our 11 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.719 energy security. But of course the idea of a cable 12 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.359 across the Atlantic, although it has been done with the 13 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.520 telegraph in eighteen sixty six and we've got dozens of 14 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.079 Internet cable but the question was is it technically possible. 15 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.240 That's the first ques and the answers is provided by 16 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.920 the CEO of National Grid, John Pettigol on interview he 17 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:10.920 gave six months ago on the podcast, and so that 18 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:14.400 you know, National Grid is the largest operator in the 19 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.319 world of subscinta connector. So if there is one person 20 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:20.920 on this planet who knows something about long distance cable, 21 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.439 that's John Pettigle. Let's listen to the interview. 22 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:28.480 Another area of National Grids business in the ventures, which 23 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:32.439 is your interconnectors. It's actually pretty large part of your activity. 24 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:35.640 I think I saw a quite cool photo of you 25 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:39.519 being handed the Guinness World Record for the longest power 26 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.319 cable in the world for your Viking protect That must 27 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:43.959 have been an exciting day, John. 28 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.920 Yeah, it's fantastic. Actually, I guess most people don't realize, 29 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:50.840 but naturally don't. Six interconnectors now with France, the Netherlands, Belgium, 30 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:54.120 Norway and the latest one is Denmark and it is 31 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.840 the longest subse land HBDC cable in the world. We 32 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.319 got the in the Guinness Book records for that. But 33 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.480 Nash Grid with the largest owner in the world of 34 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.840 subc cables now. So it is a significant and important 35 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.879 part of our business and directly linked into our views 36 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:14.039 on the energy transition. So increasingly we think networks across 37 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.039 Europe will need to be interconnected, particularly to take advantage 38 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.000 of the offshore wind resource we got in the North Sea. 39 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.159 So to date, you know, we've been investing what we 40 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:25.680 call point to points into connectors, but we do see 41 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.840 it as the start or what ultimately will become an 42 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.280 offshore grid. So it's an important part of our business. 43 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:32.479 And when we're very proud. 44 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:35.240 Of with these interonnectors, and you've already got the record 45 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:37.400 for the longest subse cable, but in my mind I 46 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.680 always wonder how far could we go with this? Both 47 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:42.439 well many from a technical perspective. I mean there's been 48 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:46.840 discussion of having solar projects in North Africa link into 49 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.319 the UK or even into Germany. There's been discussion even 50 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.960 of a could we have an interconnector across the Atlantic? 51 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:56.639 What is the physical limit that you think to one 52 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:58.240 of these long cables. 53 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:00.879 You're right, a lot of work is being done and 54 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.479 if you sort of separate the sort of engineering feasibility 55 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.960 from the economics feasibility, there is no doubt from an 56 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.080 engineering perspective you could connect Morocco which is the exce 57 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:16.280 Links project to southern England with a large interconnector. From 58 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.120 an engineering perspective, I think people have got themselves comfortable 59 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:20.719 that is something that's achievable. 60 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:23.759 Would you want to say something about John Bittig or Simon. Yeah. 61 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:27.560 At National Grid are clearly the leaders in developing, executing 62 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:31.240 and operating subsey cables, and as a whole, Great Britain 63 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.159 is really leading the way and will continue to do 64 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.000 so for some years to come. As an island, we're 65 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.039 heavily dependent on both importing and exporting electricity as a 66 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.879 great trading nation. But I think also looking forward, as 67 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.639 we fill and all sea and other shallow basins around 68 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.960 the world with wind farms and cover our fields with solar, 69 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.199 we need to think after twenty thirty, after twenty forty, 70 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.759 what are we going to do. We're talking already about 71 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:59.439 dunka flouters and other problems that we foresee having concentration 72 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:03.680 of renewable volatile power. So the logical next step is 73 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:08.639 to connect uncorrelated solar and win basins around the world 74 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.080 to mitigate that risk. And I think that's where North 75 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.759 Atlantic Transmission one comes into the four. 76 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.759 Let me jump in there and just say, really tople 77 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.600 up simple English. When it's sunny here, it's dark in 78 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:25.560 North America. When it's windy there, it's not windy here. 79 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.560 And we've looked back over weather data over the last 80 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.000 twenty years and we see zero correlation. And that makes 81 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:33.839 it really, really really interesting. 82 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.000 Yeah, So to explain where we're at right now. I 83 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:42.439 gave an interview in February to another podcast called Joel, 84 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.360 So there's a lot of circular academy. You know, I reuse, 85 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.160 I reuse a lot. But it was a very good interview. 86 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:52.439 So rather than repeating, we're gonna listen to myself talking 87 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:53.639 too jorts. 88 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.720 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Jolt. I'm your host, 89 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.480 Sam Morgan. Imagine this, if you will, a huge power 90 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:09.279 cable link in North America and Europe, electricity firing off 91 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.680 in both directions to make the most of renewable energy 92 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.839 when it can be generated and when it can be consumed. 93 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.040 Sounds fanciful, right Well, on today's episode, I'm looking into 94 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.319 why this idea could be a win wind for both 95 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.519 sides of the Atlantic, and how the project might actually 96 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:32.560 be realized. A couple of nights ago, I was working 97 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.120 up by my shutters banging against the window frame thanks 98 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:39.560 to some particularly strong winds in the early hours of 99 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.000 the morning. That got me thinking, as I lay there 100 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.360 trying to get back to sleep, isn't it a shame 101 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:47.360 that all of that wind is pretty much going to 102 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.839 waste as during the night there isn't much demand for electricity. 103 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:54.680 We can only store so much of it, so a 104 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:58.560 lot of potential green electrons go to waste. Today, though, 105 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.480 we are taking a look at an ambitious power project 106 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.399 idea that could solve that problem. Well if you could 107 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.279 power a different part of the world where energy demand 108 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.920 matches renewable energy supply patterns. If you laid a power 109 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:16.639 cable from Europe to North America, for example, then you 110 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.319 could do just that. Nighttime winds in the North Sea 111 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.920 could power evening demands across the pond, while North American 112 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.920 electrons could satisfy Europe's morning peak. That cable would of 113 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.040 course be the longest ever installed and would pose a 114 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.720 mighty infrastructure challenge, but that has not stopped some of 115 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.040 the brightest minds in the business from trying to turn 116 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.720 this from great idea to fantastic reality. I'm lucky enough 117 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:44.959 to be joined today by one of the pioneers behind 118 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.639 this project to learn a bit more about the logic 119 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.839 behind the idea, the challenges it faces, and why those 120 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:56.079 in power should give it a chance. Laurent Segela is 121 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:00.480 a clean energy banker with decades of experience in this sector, 122 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:05.720 whose latest venture, megawatt X, is behind the NATO l 123 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:10.000 power cable plan. I kicked off my conversation with Lauren 124 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.240 by asking him to go a little bit more into 125 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.839 why building a transatlantic power link is a good idea. 126 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:20.240 The genesis came when the North Stream system blew up 127 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.199 two and a half years ago, So that was really 128 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:25.680 a bit of what they call a Sputnik moment where 129 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.720 you operalize that you cannot rely on Russia for their 130 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.480 energy needs. I think Canada has experimented seeing a similar 131 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.360 issue with what's going on with the Trump administration. First 132 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:40.879 question you need to ask yourself is why when you 133 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:44.199 do inter collector? Is why do you do inter connector? Because, 134 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.879 as you said, the Custo lot have a changing problem 135 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.720 and at the end of the day, the fundamentals are 136 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:55.040 number one, security, Number two, we have a growth in 137 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:00.519 power demand, data centers, transportation, heating. But who sees that 138 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:04.399 the grid is becoming more and more intermedtent And because 139 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:09.120 I developed an interconnector previously a new one which is 140 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.879 going to link Dublin and Liverpool, I had a bit 141 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.519 of an understanding on how to develop an interconnector. And 142 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.360 then you ask the question about the economics, Well, for me, 143 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.240 it's really about wind. We're gonna rely more and more 144 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.800 on the North Sea and it's a great success. But 145 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.360 as a lot of people may know, when is intermedent 146 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:31.920 in the NORSEA, maybe you get a forty to fifty 147 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:35.120 percent of capacity factor, but as pretty much it so 148 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.320 we've developed a lot of interconnectors in your hope, but 149 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:40.440 sometimes when it's blowing in the North Sea, you know 150 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:43.799 it's blowing in England and in Denmark or in Belgium 151 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.799 at the same time. The balancing of the Nasia resource 152 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.559 is not that obvious now if you look on the 153 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:53.679 other side, and it's very important that an interconnector makes 154 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:57.360 sense for the boss country that they connect Canada and 155 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.759 especially Quebec as a very different grid. Quebec is a 156 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.879 bit Norway on steroids in the sense that they have 157 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:08.960 an extraordinary amount of hyrol but they are very mindful 158 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:14.159 of how to use those resources. They are exporting quite 159 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:18.080 a lot to the US, which is always difficult. And 160 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:21.799 what you realized is that with six hours of the 161 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.159 radiation of the Earth, in fact the peak demand which 162 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:29.559 are seven am to nine am and four pm to 163 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.600 nine pm, are not aligned. Basically, it's the full night 164 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.120 in Europe when it's the peak in Canada and when 165 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.159 it's our morning peak, it's night over there. And the 166 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.080 team we've run a lot of analysis and this has 167 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.919 also been supported by a study by Amber and Energy, 168 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.480 meaning that it makes a lot of sense from a 169 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.799 Greek perspective to combine in a certain way the two grids. 170 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:57.840 What kind of role could this project actually play in 171 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.960 both Europe's and North America energy transitions? 172 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:01.200 Then? 173 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.679 Could it be a fundamental cog in Europe's decarbonization mission 174 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.159 or is it potential a little more nuanced than that. 175 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.879 Well, our plan is to develop three interconnectors of two 176 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.559 giga what each, So in the grand scheme of things 177 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.120 they want to put one hundred gig in the North Sea. 178 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.200 It's not going to move the needle a lot. What 179 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.159 it will allow is in pairs of stress, whether here 180 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.840 or over there, it will cap the price because you 181 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:31.080 will be able to get power pilow one hundred you 182 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:34.039 op omega what hour. Otherwise you will need to fire 183 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:39.480 some very expensive CCGT and polluting CECILGT or running more coal. 184 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:42.399 And if you consider that the batteries which are great, 185 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.039 but the battery is mostly going to cover two or 186 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:47.799 three hours in terms of intense stress. In terms of 187 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:52.360 the call floater a big interconnectois is an extraordinary diversification. 188 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.559 So it's not going to change fundamentally, but it's going 189 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:57.879 to create a lot of resiliency on the margin. 190 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.759 Now, obviously, linking two continents that are separated by one 191 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.039 of the world's largest and deepest bodies of water is 192 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:08.559 no walk in the park. It poses an immense engineering 193 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:12.679 challenge and if the project were completed, it will rank 194 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:17.159 among some of humanity's most impressive achievements. But are we 195 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:21.559 overreaching slightly here or could this actually be done? Lauren 196 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.480 explains here why the answer is yes, we can. 197 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:28.639 The idea came on the back of the project of 198 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.240 the sun Cable wants to link Australia to Singapore and 199 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:35.399 also exce links who want to link more code to 200 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.080 UK or Germany. So it means it that been worked 201 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:44.399 already by excellent professionals. The biggest link right now is 202 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.960 the Viking Link hate hundred kilometer, so we need to okay, 203 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.600 let's say times five. But you know, if you look 204 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.639 at a lot of investment which has been made in 205 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:57.000 a transition where there is some nice discovering the lab 206 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:00.320 and people needs to want times one hundred. I would 207 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.120 say times five is very reasonable. Now, if you look 208 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.480 at the supply chain, it exists on supply chain, it's 209 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:13.200 called it. Tacchi. Ge Acker National Grid already managers six interconnectors. 210 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.559 So we have talked to those people and they all said, look, yeah, 211 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.879 it's long, it's deep, it's challenging, but yeah, with just 212 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.440 one generation away, So there was no technical red flag. 213 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:26.080 In terms of technology. 214 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.240 Interconnectors have been in the news a fair bit lately. 215 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:32.759 Lauren already mentioned nord Stream too earlier in the show. 216 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:37.120 Power cables in the Baltic have been damaged and in 217 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.720 all likelihood targeted. It's even prompted NATO to launch a 218 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.159 special mission to protect this vital infrastructure. So I asked Lauren, 219 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.919 is there a danger that governments will actually go in 220 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:53.240 the opposite direction and turn their noses up at more interconnectors, 221 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.799 risking that Transatlantic idea never being given an actual fair hearing. 222 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.799 Well, I say you and retract. But at the end 223 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.720 of the day, this is a very long term project. 224 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.960 If you only think defense, you never do the Panama Canal, 225 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:12.000 you never do the Swiss Canal. Some people like to 226 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.960 build walls and others like to build bridges, so we 227 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.679 must be optimistic. And the fact that the wind doesn't 228 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:20.840 blow at the same time on both sides of the Atlantic, 229 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:24.320 and we're going to rely on clean power that makes 230 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:29.679 it interesting. We need to deliver positive messages. Now there's 231 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:31.240 going to be a lot of work to be done. 232 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.039 From a technical point of view, how do you lay 233 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.600 cable that deep? We're going to need to use new 234 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:40.559 technologies because right now we're using mostly one a thousand voults. 235 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:42.559 We need to go to one million involved, but you 236 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.960 know Chinese they already use one million involved. We need 237 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:49.480 to choose the route call Arctic Root, Northern rout, Southern rout. 238 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:51.919 We need to know where we're going to land, but 239 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.279 we have identified landing zones. And then, as you said, 240 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.039 a lot of discussion around regulation permitting financial models. But 241 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.279 look in terms of a footprint, the size of the cable, 242 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.279 it's just a it's a big pizza, so I mean, 243 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:06.799 it's not that big. 244 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.919 You know. When I first read about this project, my 245 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:13.840 first reaction was fascination. I am, after all, a little 246 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.039 boy at heart who will always be enthralled by big bridges. 247 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:21.720 Giant ships and tour skyscrapers. But what are the reactions 248 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.639 of other people been, especially those that might be able 249 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.960 to help get this project off the ground. 250 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:31.600 At the beginning, everybody was kind of got smacked. But 251 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:33.759 you know, the more you think about it, we have 252 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.080 the supply chain, we have the tools. They are strong 253 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.480 economic rational, they are strong security irrational from both sides. Now, 254 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.919 it's going to take maybe ten years. But when I 255 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.879 had first the idea and I googled, I saw nobody's 256 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:49.639 doing it. So I said, look, maybe I'm a bit foolish, 257 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.919 but I'm going to start. And thanks God, I've got 258 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:55.000 your hard read and Simon Ludnam as a co partners, 259 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:59.559 and each of them brings enormous level of contacts and knowledge. 260 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:04.440 And you know, we know how to price those interconnectors. 261 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:07.679 We understand the regulation that needs to be changed. It's 262 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.440 a very long journey. I'm sure over time those cables 263 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.600 will exist because they make so much sense for post parties. 264 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.279 I think today's episode is a great reminder, in my 265 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.879 point of view, at least, that there is room in 266 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.600 the energy transition, maybe even a need to think big. 267 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:29.120 Why shouldn't north sea wind power quebecuar homes. Why shouldn't 268 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:33.399 Portuguese solar fuel finish sawners. We have the technology to 269 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.480 pull much of this off, so big ideas like the 270 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.120 one being developed by Lauren deserve to be heard. 271 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:47.200 Now part of our process, we have engaged with the 272 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.759 best of the best in the world. And when it 273 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:54.919 comes to HVDC technology and the capacity to build long 274 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:00.360 cable there is one expert that everybody knows and everybody respect. 275 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.639 It's Connell Display, global head of HVDC at DNV. Let's 276 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:08.080 hear read directly from him. Hi, cornelis how are you 277 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.320 doing so? Conneis your global head of HVDC at DNV. 278 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.639 So you know a thing or two about subsynta connectors 279 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:20.919 and you recently published a very technical document where you 280 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:25.759 analyze what you now call the ultra long subse cables. 281 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:27.600 So what are the main conclusions? 282 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.679 Thanks for the opportunity to come onto your show. We've 283 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.080 been really interested in how far you can go with HIDC. 284 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.279 We've always been saying that you can go as far 285 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.799 as practically relevant with HIDC, but we always assumed that 286 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.600 this was using overheadlines and we just wanted to know 287 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.360 it's the same truth for underground and submarine cables, because 288 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.960 we see many projects being proposed these days with lengths 289 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:55.720 over one thousand kilometers, sometimes several thousands of kilometers. So 290 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.879 what we did is we there's been very simple linear 291 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:03.200 analysis looking at some basic aspects of those systems to say, hey, 292 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.119 do we at some distance, at some transmission length start 293 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.680 running into real fundamental issues run So we looked at 294 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.799 the impact on the system designed. For example, we looked 295 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.440 at the impact on the losses in the system, the availability, 296 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.400 the ability to test the cable after it's been installed, 297 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.640 and also how long it would take to actually manufacture 298 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.160 this cable. And from the analysis that the bottom line 299 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.680 conclusion is we don't see any significant red flags for 300 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.839 the first few thousand kilometers. I've also discussed this with 301 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:37.920 a few of the other participants at the conference that 302 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.400 I was at last week. There were manufacturers there also 303 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.920 some utilities and the converted manufacturers that I spoke to. 304 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.319 They all seem to agree that we do not see 305 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:50.920 any real technical limits for those few first thousands of kilometers. 306 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.640 So one could say from that perspective it is technically feasible. 307 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.160 So in fact, those subsey cables if you are from 308 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:02.559 a public policy, you know, long term strategy. You've got 309 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.880 guys coming with the fusion energ or hydrogen I don't 310 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:13.079 know what ortorium reactors, which frankly don't exist here. What 311 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.400 you're saying is with what we have today and can 312 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.920 get better in the next ten years, and the supply 313 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.759 chain that exists with guys like Prismian and Kat and 314 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.240 the Semens, the Itashi, the g of this world. Those 315 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:33.839 people just saying like, wow, it's long, it deep, it 316 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.759 subtenly tough, but yeah. 317 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:39.400 For sure challenging, but not impossible. 318 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:40.160 Right. 319 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.920 The challenge will be in controlling the quality of the 320 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.839 cable so you can control the failure rate, which of 321 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.119 course is just a statistic really, but it's a very 322 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.880 important one. When the cable length starts becoming ultralong more 323 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.720 than a thousand kilometers, that's something that we don't have 324 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.599 a lot of experience with today in the industry, where 325 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.759 we have based our technology qualification on the assumption that 326 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.799 we have much shorter lengths. So we have to really 327 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.559 think about how do we prove that our production processes 328 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.319 are really controlled to the degree that you need to 329 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.319 control them to have as low as possible filureate to 330 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.680 make sure that those cables are in operation for long 331 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:21.559 enough every year that the business case still is a positive. 332 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:21.759 One in the end. 333 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.759 That's one thing, but that's an engineering and a manufacturing 334 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.319 problem that we can overcome. The other one is, of 335 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:31.319 course the production capacity. The production of submarine cables is 336 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.079 not a very fast process, so we will need more 337 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:38.039 than several production lines to do that. Again, that's something 338 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:40.599 that the industry is at the moment, not yet in 339 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:43.200 a situation where we have that much production capacity that 340 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.440 we can do this, but that's again a matter of 341 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.319 engineering and investment in additional production capacity to make that happen, 342 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.519 which if the business case is there, can be done. 343 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.240 So right now in your hope, we have this standout 344 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.240 called the too gigawatt TENET or the to giga at 345 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:04.279 National Grid. Do you see evolution, because this has been 346 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.359 a long journey to go from those first two undred 347 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.319 megawat cables to now the two gigaward, which is really phenomenal, 348 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.200 But the story continues, for sure. 349 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.160 The industry will probably first want to see to get 350 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.440 some operational experience with this new voltage level that is 351 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:25.000 associated with the standard five hundred and twenty five thousand volts. 352 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.279 But in the meantime we can already see that manufacturers 353 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.880 are developing products for higher voltages six hundred and forty 354 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.000 kilo votes for example, which with a submarine cable would 355 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:35.960 probably enable. 356 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:37.480 You to have a free gigawat link. 357 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:39.799 That will be the next step. And also if you're 358 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.079 going for alpha long cables, going to a higher voltage 359 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.079 as benefits for the system design, it all make it easier, 360 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:49.400 like a million voltes. That will be a future picture. 361 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:50.839 We have that for overhead lines. 362 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.200 Of course, time will tell if we can also do 363 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:57.599 that for insulated cables. In my understanding that the highest 364 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.839 voltage that has been developed today is one hundred thousand 365 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.440 holds for underground cable, but that has never really seen 366 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:08.640 a practical application yet. So amiliar voters were now probably 367 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.480 still a bit of a dream, but why not. 368 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.839 I understand the cable can be as big as three 369 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.319 giga award, but you know that grid integration is an issue, 370 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.640 and you might have grids who are a bit reluctant 371 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:25.160 to have a single point of failure of three gigawats, 372 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:28.119 and maybe they're going to go for two giga awards. Now, 373 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.279 when we have designed the North Atlantic transmission, one link, 374 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:35.640 we put six, so six is three times two or 375 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.319 two times three. At the end of the day, it's 376 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:43.039 up to the regulators, grid manager and the industrial supply 377 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.240 chain to decide which is the best options. So we're 378 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:51.119 open minded, will follow what the industry and the sides. 379 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.440 And even if you have three times too, there's another 380 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.119 trick that you could apply from a system design perspective, 381 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:00.319 which is a so called metallic return. Typically it is 382 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.759 way too expensive to do that with such a long 383 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:05.480 link if it's just one time too, but if you 384 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.759 have pre links, you might be able to share such 385 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.559 a metallic return between the pre links and that can 386 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.480 cut the two gigawads into two times one gigawads in 387 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:18.160 terms of maximum lots of Infeed, depending on how utilities 388 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.240 model the contingencies, that could provide a path forward to 389 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.079 smooth that the grid integration of those kind of systems. 390 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.680 Well comedies, Thank you so much. It was brief, but 391 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.200 it was dence and it was very useful. And the 392 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.960 general message is thanks to the engineers and the supply 393 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:37.799 chain and all the hard work you're doing. There is 394 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:43.240 no red flag in terms of developing those ultralong cable 395 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.519 Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank 396 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:46.839 you ever. 397 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.039 Yeah, just echoing some of Canelis's thought and looking forward. Clearly, 398 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:52.960 we're not going to build this tomorrow, but we're going 399 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.680 to build this for twenty forty and the products and 400 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.480 services that are being used or implemented today will clearly 401 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.680