Speaker 1: Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Speaker 1: Barbury Lane. Welcome to another special episode of Full Circle
Speaker 1: the podcast. I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr. And
Speaker 1: today I'm thrilled to be sitting down with my guest.
Speaker 1: She is a New York Times bestselling author. She has
Speaker 1: written an amazing and fun and dark book darkly fabulous
Speaker 1: will call it. It is called Girl Dinner, and I
Speaker 1: am excited to have Olivi Blake in the house. Hi, Olivi,
Speaker 1: how are you.
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm great, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love this book.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It was a great place to start.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what people are going to be of it, Honestly,
Speaker 3: I'm still very nervous.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, it tickled that part of my brain
Speaker 1: that you know, I love, I love. I was a
Speaker 1: gender studies minor, so it was like, yes, give it
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 3: I studied urban planning in public policy, so very much,
Speaker 3: you know, in the under the umbrella of sociology. This
Speaker 3: is very much chapping into how have I been trained
Speaker 3: to think right.
Speaker 1: Right, right right? I guess the best place to start
Speaker 1: is tell us what Girl Dinner is about.
Speaker 2: Okay, So Girl Dinner is about the House.
Speaker 3: It's the most prestigious, unnamed sorority on this equally unnamed
Speaker 3: and elite university campus. And there are two perspectives. There's Nina,
Speaker 3: who's the nineteen year old who's rushing the house. She
Speaker 3: didn't have a great freshman year, but she's very ambitious.
Speaker 3: She's super hungry, you know, she really wants big things
Speaker 3: for her life, and she sees the house as her
Speaker 3: opportunity to become one of those you know, powerful, beautiful,
Speaker 3: perfect women that she's seen come out of it. And
Speaker 3: then there the other character is Sloan. She's thirty three.
Speaker 3: She is an adjunct professor, and she's just taken a step,
Speaker 3: you know, sideways slash kind of backward in her career
Speaker 3: in order to join her husband, who is a professor
Speaker 3: at the same university. She has been with her daughter,
Speaker 3: her newborn daughter, for the last eighteen months, and.
Speaker 2: She's just now going back to work.
Speaker 3: So she's having sort of the crisis of being the
Speaker 3: postpartum woman who's her clothes don't fit and her brain
Speaker 3: only works like thirty percent of the time.
Speaker 2: That is very familiar to me.
Speaker 3: And she also crosses paths with the house by way
Speaker 3: of its alumnae. So she is looking at these women
Speaker 3: who have come out of the house and is like, Wow,
Speaker 3: how do they have it all? How are they achieving
Speaker 3: all these things that I'm struggling with. And so as
Speaker 3: both Nina and Sloane come to realize exactly how these
Speaker 3: women do have it all, it's kind of they're kind
Speaker 3: of asked, you know, what does power mean to them?
Speaker 3: And what are they willing to sacrifice for it?
Speaker 1: And so much more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was It's really really Girl Dinner started
Speaker 3: as a punchline. I mean it was when obviously obviously
Speaker 3: that's a reference to the meme I'm not on TikTok,
Speaker 3: so like it reached me, like last I like to
Speaker 3: joke that it reached me as you know Anne Hathaway's
Speaker 3: cerulean sweater, you know, like trickled down to me. And
Speaker 3: so then I was like, wouldn't it be funny if
Speaker 3: I wrote a satire about a cannibal sorority and called
Speaker 3: it girl Dinner and enough people laughed that here we are.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm glad you said cannibalism because I was
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to talk about it without
Speaker 1: talking about right.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we can just talk about it. The
Speaker 2: thing is that.
Speaker 3: I when I wrote this, or when I when I
Speaker 3: told my editor and she's like, you have to write that,
Speaker 3: I was like, don't you think there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of cannibal books recently?
Speaker 2: Like I had read a lot, at least four or.
Speaker 3: Five books in twenty twenty three where it was like
Speaker 3: the surprise twist is cannibalism.
Speaker 2: And I was like, if we're if I'm.
Speaker 3: Going to do this, if I'm going to contribute to
Speaker 3: the canon of cannibalism, then I want it to be
Speaker 3: to not turn on the twist like that. You can
Speaker 3: kind of know the whole way through that you're like,
Speaker 3: oh God, they're cannibals, aren't they.
Speaker 1: So well it was funny because I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: so they're cannibals. Wait, they're witches, Wait they're vampire, They're
Speaker 1: gonna be all of them watched Luckily there was no
Speaker 1: wrong answer, and yeah, I love it, And and part
Speaker 1: of me is like, hmmm, do I have a list?
Speaker 1: But I don't think many of the people on my
Speaker 1: list would be very nutritious for anyone. I also love
Speaker 1: the themes of what is a good woman? I'm putting
Speaker 1: that in their quotes and is there such a thing?
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's really the question. Bok is not trying
Speaker 3: to answer the question. I will just say that straight up.
Speaker 3: I think there's been a lot of people have been like, oh,
Speaker 3: girl Dinner is like the start of this fem gore
Speaker 3: trend or something, which it absolutely is not. Girl Dinner
Speaker 3: is very much like in conversation with what I already
Speaker 3: see as an identifiable trend, Like there's you know, the
Speaker 3: woman having a meltdown is like pretty much my favorite
Speaker 3: literary subgenre, and this is a book that is very
Speaker 3: much one of those. But I think what's different about
Speaker 3: Girl Dinner is that it's like it already it already
Speaker 3: knows about those books, right, Like it already it's having
Speaker 3: it's like breaking the fourth wall while it's having its
Speaker 3: melt down, you know, because when I'm asking the question
Speaker 3: what is a good woman?
Speaker 2: And really I'm asking the question if we already know,
Speaker 2: if there's already been so.
Speaker 3: Much media Barbie Movie included that suggests that the answer
Speaker 3: to can women have it all?
Speaker 2: Is no? Then what do we get to have?
Speaker 3: If the answer is little treats like are we functioning
Speaker 3: in the postgirl boss little treats economy like that should
Speaker 3: not be good enough for you, That shouldn't be good
Speaker 3: enough for anyone. And so I think part of the
Speaker 3: question of what are you willing to do to be
Speaker 3: a good woman? And in what ways can you have
Speaker 3: blind spots? In what ways can your understanding of your
Speaker 3: own suffering or victimhood be myopic? I think it's this.
Speaker 3: I really wanted to lean into the dissonance of what
Speaker 3: is real suffering, Like what is power that we actually
Speaker 3: don't have? What are resources that we really don't have,
Speaker 3: and what do we think that power is right?
Speaker 1: And and that's the thing. It's like this conversation all
Speaker 1: lies on the foundation rickety as it is of the
Speaker 1: power structure, that of the patriarchy. And that's like a
Speaker 1: house of cards built on a sand dune, you know,
Speaker 1: as we're kind of seeing, it's like it's all smoke
Speaker 1: and mirrors. And now it's like, you know, they're showing
Speaker 1: us the smoke and the mirrors, and we're still like, ooh,
Speaker 1: look at the castle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my okay, My whole thing this is I think
Speaker 3: some women may find it frustrating that this is not
Speaker 3: a man hating book or like, this is not a
Speaker 3: book about revenge against men. This is a book that's like,
Speaker 3: what is the patriarchy doing to you?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: And So the reason that I have to point that
Speaker 3: out is because I think sometimes people go into this
Speaker 3: expecting one thing. There's a lot of media that I
Speaker 3: that I put under the Girl Boss umbrella, which is
Speaker 3: the kind of thing where, you know, I think in
Speaker 3: the twenty tens, it was very hot to be like, well,
Speaker 3: you know, if we just if we just use these
Speaker 3: products and if we just you know, embrace our sexuality
Speaker 3: and beauty is power, and you know, all this the
Speaker 3: lean in and all this stuff, and you know, we
Speaker 3: just do these things.
Speaker 2: It'll be fine.
Speaker 3: And we're at a place now where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: that didn't work, but all is not lost, right, because
Speaker 3: I think if we can all collectively voice the patriarchy
Speaker 3: as a problem, the patriarchy is the problem, what do
Speaker 3: we do about it? And my concern is that at
Speaker 3: this juncture, people are going the wrong way, right, Like
Speaker 3: tradwives should not be the answer, true women not being
Speaker 3: able to have it all. Right.
Speaker 2: I understand. The thing is that I am sympathetic.
Speaker 3: I am sympathetic to the younger generations of women who
Speaker 3: feel like I don't want to do the you know,
Speaker 3: chuggy millennial go get them girl boss thing. You know,
Speaker 3: I get it that, like you're looking at what we
Speaker 3: did and you think it's corny, and you know, people
Speaker 3: make a joke of the pussy hats or whatever, but
Speaker 3: like it did something right because it allowed women to women.
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm using women as a very broad
Speaker 3: term here to recognize that there's more we could have,
Speaker 3: there's more we should have, right, And I understand that
Speaker 3: one one outcome of that is to be like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not even gonna try, right, Like, if the road,
Speaker 3: you know, if the road to having it all is
Speaker 3: doomed to fail, then all right, trad wifery it is.
Speaker 2: But that's a huge problem.
Speaker 3: I mean, the whole the whole concept, really, Girl Dinner
Speaker 3: is just kind of it's just feminism question mark.
Speaker 2: And it's like, what does your feminism look like?
Speaker 3: Because if your feminism, if your feminism has exceptions anywhere, right,
Speaker 3: if your if your feminism does not, if it has exclusions,
Speaker 3: then not only is it probably not feminism, but it's
Speaker 3: doomed to fail, right, you know, like the patriarchy. Taking
Speaker 3: down the patriarchy is an uphill battle. It's systemic, it's institutional,
Speaker 3: it's like really embedded in every possible way. And so
Speaker 3: if you're saying, you know, the trans women or the
Speaker 3: disabled women or the women of color does not have
Speaker 3: a place in your movement, then there's not enough of you, period, right,
Speaker 3: And if your power is contingent on a man's power,
Speaker 3: then you don't actually have it.
Speaker 2: It's just a myth.
Speaker 3: So, and I also wanted to talk about just the pure,
Speaker 3: you know, amusing to me if it weren't so terrible
Speaker 3: hypocrisy of the tradwife concept or the concept of a
Speaker 3: traditional woman's role. When the women who are popularizing this
Speaker 3: are extremely wealthy and they're working, they're a brand, they
Speaker 3: create content. They are not traditional women, and they were
Speaker 3: given those resources by the feminists that came before them.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, yeah, so right, So you know that's
Speaker 3: why I was like, this has to be a satire.
Speaker 3: This has to be you know, it has to be funny,
Speaker 3: It has to be kind of like a left.
Speaker 2: Through nausea kind of feeling. But it also, you.
Speaker 3: Know, I recognize that like, truly conservative women are not
Speaker 3: going to read this book right, like they're like, you know,
Speaker 3: there are people that can't be helped. But I also
Speaker 3: think there's lots of people who are like, oh, I'm
Speaker 3: liberal except for this thing, or like, oh, I'm liberal,
Speaker 3: but I think Taylor Swift should be cognizant that her
Speaker 3: audience is too young for her to sing about Dix.
Speaker 2: And it's just like and it's like.
Speaker 3: Can a woman make or she wants to or not?
Speaker 3: This is a totally this is a totally minor example.
Speaker 3: It's just that this week alone, five different women have
Speaker 3: said that to me, Like, is this some sort of
Speaker 3: talking point online?
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you know, I think.
Speaker 3: It's just it's this weird like I guess I'm asking
Speaker 3: the question question, what are you policing and why?
Speaker 1: Right? We live in a post wop era, so that
Speaker 1: very argument is just.
Speaker 2: Has everyone forgotten that? I'm worried people have forgotten.
Speaker 1: That's like that was like a praiseworthy moment for me.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, these women are talking about men
Speaker 1: the way men have been talking about women in the
Speaker 1: same genre all this time, but they're in charge and
Speaker 1: they're getting paid do that shit take off more. I
Speaker 1: don't give a shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I you know, and so yeah, and this
Speaker 3: is the sort of this is what I mean Also
Speaker 3: by like being in conversation with all this, someone asked
Speaker 3: me recently, like what.
Speaker 2: What singular event radicalized me?
Speaker 3: Right, And that's there's nothing, you know, But I'm a
Speaker 3: woman who grew up in thee I grew up in
Speaker 3: the two thousands, so I was there, you know, when
Speaker 3: Britney Spears shaved her head and Lindsay Lohan did whatever
Speaker 3: Lindsay Lohan did, and like the whole thing would be
Speaker 3: as skinny as possible, whatever thing, all the things, you know,
Speaker 3: all the Lindsay loyand things, and you know, and and
Speaker 3: when everyone was just so cruel to like Jessica Simpson,
Speaker 3: I don't even know. And what I internalized from all
Speaker 3: of that and being biracial and not seeing anyone who
Speaker 3: looked like me and all of this is just like
Speaker 3: this feeling like I've got to be a guys girl.
Speaker 3: I've got to be a cool girl. I've got to
Speaker 3: be not like other girls. That's that's where I started from, right,
Speaker 3: And so to be where I am now, I owe
Speaker 3: all of that to the many different feminist movements that
Speaker 3: happened along the way, the.
Speaker 2: Me Too movement, for example, the pussy hats.
Speaker 3: You know, the fact that I understand, like I said,
Speaker 3: why people kind of look at the things that we did,
Speaker 3: the like hope core of the Obama era and see
Speaker 3: that as being you know, yeah, you know, mainly virtue
Speaker 3: signaling or whatever. But it was not for naught. You know,
Speaker 3: like it wasn't for nothing. Because if I can sit
Speaker 3: here and you know, say that it's actually not acceptable
Speaker 3: to laugh at jokes that objectify me, or jokes that
Speaker 3: are racist, or it's not okay, you know that there
Speaker 3: are there are things that like that I'm allowed to
Speaker 3: identify as not acceptable. I think that's like that speaks
Speaker 3: to how how far we've come socially, not just as
Speaker 3: I have matured as an individual, Like this is something
Speaker 3: that like the world has taught me.
Speaker 2: This is an attitude I can take.
Speaker 3: So, you know, while I approach many things with cynicism
Speaker 3: in this book, I think there's a lot of there's
Speaker 3: a lot of value to asking what can we do
Speaker 3: from here? Where can we go from here? That allows
Speaker 3: more of us, most of us, to have the power
Speaker 3: that we want.
Speaker 1: Right, and how much longer can we go before women
Speaker 1: actually really do snap and start biting bitches?
Speaker 2: Because I am pretty obsessed.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty obsessed with the intersection of femininity, culture and violence,
Speaker 3: Like at what point do we become violent?
Speaker 2: And what does feminine violence look like?
Speaker 1: Right? And I love it because I'm sick of man
Speaker 1: shit and I am my man, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: So it's like if and I recognize that, you know,
Speaker 1: I fall on that spectrum where like someone might want
Speaker 1: to take a chunk out of my leg too, but
Speaker 1: you know what, so be it. It obviously doesn't really
Speaker 1: work anymore when men do it, Like so like at
Speaker 1: the very least, like how much worse could a woman
Speaker 1: fuck up? I mean, come on, come, oh.
Speaker 3: Great points, great points. I yeah, no, And it's you know,
Speaker 3: I have to I do. I have to emphasize it
Speaker 3: not being a man hating book, because like, I'm a
Speaker 3: woman married to a man, I have a son.
Speaker 2: It's important to me that, like it's not like we're
Speaker 2: targeting a.
Speaker 3: Group for erasure, you h of course, Well, you know,
Speaker 3: I have to say these things. There are people who
Speaker 3: need to hear.
Speaker 1: These, right, Yeah, yeah, it's just.
Speaker 3: Like it's not you know, I do think there are
Speaker 3: pitfalls to suggesting to kind of like the man hating jokes,
Speaker 3: you know, not that they shouldn't be made, not that
Speaker 3: they aren't earned, but that there still has to be
Speaker 3: a role for men. There still has to be like
Speaker 3: an understanding of what is a good man. I think
Speaker 3: that's also implied when you ask the question what's a
Speaker 3: good woman, you are necessarily asking the question what's a
Speaker 3: good man? And so, you know, it's something that I
Speaker 3: all of my works are very existential. They're really all
Speaker 3: about like what does it mean to live well? And
Speaker 3: I think some of that means removing yourself as an
Speaker 3: individual and thinking more of the collective. I guess it's
Speaker 3: existential and it's humanist. That's like, if we make things
Speaker 3: better for everyone, even people you don't like, that means
Speaker 3: it's better for everyone.
Speaker 2: Even you.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the mindset, right, That's the mindset
Speaker 3: that I find is missing from a lot of people
Speaker 3: and that I try to encourage in these roundabout ways.
Speaker 3: It's just like, you know, if we could make everybody's
Speaker 3: life a little bit better. I talk a lot about
Speaker 3: how you know, there's all, there's all this you know
Speaker 3: about the male loneliness epidemic, when really what it is
Speaker 3: is a capitalist driven loneliness epidemic that is not specific
Speaker 3: to men.
Speaker 2: Women are lonely too.
Speaker 3: And it's but but people are more in crisis over
Speaker 3: men being lonely because it's unusual because it hasn't happened before,
Speaker 3: or like women waiting longer for marriage or not getting
Speaker 3: married or not choosing to have children that is new,
Speaker 3: and so people are more worried, like what happens to
Speaker 3: the men. But the answer is everybody is lonely. If
Speaker 3: we can make things better for women, it would make
Speaker 3: things better for men.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: But again, I don't expect men to.
Speaker 3: Read this book either, so I don't really know how
Speaker 3: to reach them.
Speaker 1: I'll do my part. I'll as it's on you.
Speaker 3: Charlespread the word like.
Speaker 1: But like that whole male loneliness thing, it's like, have
Speaker 1: you met you? I wouldn't want to hang out.
Speaker 2: With you, Eve, I know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah you really? What what's the the South Korean movement?
Speaker 3: That's like a number and a letter?
Speaker 2: Is it four B?
Speaker 1: Is it something like that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an.
Speaker 2: Interesting it's an interesting concept.
Speaker 3: Because it's like, yeah, there, what's good about it is
Speaker 3: that it's actionable, it has a deliverable It's like, unless
Speaker 3: you give us these things that we that we want.
Speaker 3: You know, there's there's a moment in Girl Dinner. Okay,
Speaker 3: let me back up mentally.
Speaker 2: So I wrote Girl.
Speaker 3: Dinner in twenty twenty three before the twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: presidential election, and there was a moment when you know,
Speaker 3: I was going into I think it was copy ed
Speaker 3: it's and I had sort of like it's like what
Speaker 3: you know, there's a line where one of the characters, Jazz,
Speaker 3: she is she's Nina's twin sister, and she's complaining about
Speaker 3: the shirts that you see white.
Speaker 2: Women wear at yoga.
Speaker 3: You know, that's just like you know, like a you
Speaker 3: go girl boss and like she's like, I hate these
Speaker 3: shirts and all they do is benefit some CEO that's
Speaker 3: probably a man, and like and she's like, and I
Speaker 3: think the original line was that we can't have a
Speaker 3: woman in office.
Speaker 2: We're too emotional for that. And then I was like,
Speaker 2: let's be optimistic. What if Kamala wins, what if this.
Speaker 3: Happens, and like, let's you know, I don't want to
Speaker 3: be the person who accidentally like, I don't know, jinx
Speaker 3: is this. So then I changed the line too, we
Speaker 3: can't have too many women in office. We're too emotional
Speaker 3: for that, right. And then when I was then when
Speaker 3: the election actually happened and I was sort of sitting
Speaker 3: with my feelings on it, I changed that line to
Speaker 3: what it ultimately is, which is we can't have equal
Speaker 3: representation because I think that is the real deliverable, right, Like,
Speaker 3: that's the actual thing that we want, that we deserve.
Speaker 3: That is not unreasonable to ask for. You know, if
Speaker 3: the whole point is about if the model of the
Speaker 3: republic is built on representation, then it is not unreasonable
Speaker 3: to say there should be an equal number of feminine representatives. Right,
Speaker 3: That's not a crazy thing to say, it is.
Speaker 2: So yeah, And so that.
Speaker 3: Was when, you know, it was funny to just I'm
Speaker 3: using the one little line as a microcosm. But I
Speaker 3: think that's what makes the difference between the things.
Speaker 2: That I identify as like girl bossy.
Speaker 3: That's just like you know that it's just like, oh,
Speaker 3: we're just we're just complaining about men generally, We're just
Speaker 3: complaining about the state of things. No, this is a
Speaker 3: very specific complaint, and it's one that I can stand
Speaker 3: on and that feels like there's something productive to come
Speaker 3: out of.
Speaker 1: It, right, It's that whole thing like, well, not all men,
Speaker 1: to which I always respond, yeah, but enough of you
Speaker 1: motherfuckers to warrant the conversation.
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, not all men, but certainly enough men.
Speaker 1: And always men.
Speaker 2: And always men. Yeah, someone else is saying something.
Speaker 3: One of the one of the books that I well,
Speaker 3: like the main book that I talk about in the acknowledgments,
Speaker 3: because in the acknowledgements, I'm like, this is not an
Speaker 3: educational text, Okay, Like, this is not a you know, this.
Speaker 2: Is a feminist.
Speaker 3: This is a feminist book in terms of it being
Speaker 3: a contribution to a conversation that's already happening and it's
Speaker 3: not in more productive ways in other places. And so
Speaker 3: one of the books I brought up is Hood Feminism
Speaker 3: by Mickey Kendall, which I think is a great book.
Speaker 3: It's very similar you know, studying sociology, studying public policy.
Speaker 3: It's it's how I think about things. But you know,
Speaker 3: Mickey Kendall makes points that I think not a lot
Speaker 3: of women think about that being pro gun control is
Speaker 3: a feminist stance because many women are shot and killed
Speaker 3: by their husbands, and so it's this kind of thing
Speaker 3: that's like, you don't you know, this is what when
Speaker 3: when you pick and choose what belongs to the feminist agenda,
Speaker 3: there's a danger in not being able to see these
Speaker 3: things because they don't apply to you specifically, you know,
Speaker 3: or you know, when we're when we say all cops
Speaker 3: are bad, what we mean is like a lot of
Speaker 3: cops beat their wives, and a lot of cops will
Speaker 3: cover for each other, and all these sorts of things
Speaker 3: that like, this is a feminist stance for these reasons.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a it's it's a way to.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people there was a lot
Speaker 3: of discourse about the Barbie movie right about it being like,
Speaker 3: you know, second wave feminism, like whatever, introductory, right, whatever,
Speaker 3: but like you have to start somewhere, right, we have
Speaker 3: to start this conversation somewhere.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a problem with that because it was
Speaker 1: a mainstream film. Yes, and it for many many people,
Speaker 1: who is the first time they were actually engaging actively
Speaker 1: with this conversation.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and I think it is valuable for those reasons.
Speaker 3: It's not as valuable as like maybe some people you know,
Speaker 3: like it's not it's not the end all test, right,
Speaker 3: but it is.
Speaker 1: Not a Belle Hooks article.
Speaker 2: But it is a contribution, right.
Speaker 3: And and I think that all these little things that
Speaker 3: make us engage with our own power differently, those things
Speaker 3: are important.
Speaker 2: They contribute to the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, I'm just thinking about when we went and
Speaker 1: saw Barbie in the theater and it was the part
Speaker 1: when can kick Barbie out of the out of her
Speaker 1: own house basically, and I hear this little girl off
Speaker 1: to the side going, that's so mean. Yes, learn it now,
Speaker 1: take it with you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Whoof Yeah, no you can't. You can't trust a man
Speaker 3: just because he's nice to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that part because think about why he's
Speaker 1: being nice to you.
Speaker 2: M Oh god.
Speaker 3: You know. One thing, one thing about having a son
Speaker 3: that has been very interesting to me because you know,
Speaker 3: now I'm exposed to the true weirdness that is hashtag
Speaker 3: boy mom and like whip at and fail.
Speaker 1: Okay, And it's.
Speaker 2: It's funny because at first, so I.
Speaker 3: Always knew I was only having one child. I like,
Speaker 3: could not do my job if I had more children.
Speaker 3: And I'm not interested in ever doing pregnancy or childbirth again.
Speaker 3: But so knowing that I had a boy meant the
Speaker 3: door was closed on ever having a girl. And that
Speaker 3: made me really sad, you know, because it seemed like, oh,
Speaker 3: it would be really nice to, you know, to raise
Speaker 3: a little girl with the feelings that I have about
Speaker 3: my own feminine of like, yes, you can do anything.
Speaker 3: Nothing's closed off to you, like you know, and and
Speaker 3: a lot of people tried to comfort me by saying,
Speaker 3: but like, oh, but you know, you'll raise a good
Speaker 3: man because you're a strong woman, you know, like you
Speaker 3: as a strong woman can shape his understanding of what
Speaker 3: a woman is. But the more that I think about it,
Speaker 3: the more that it's like, actually, it's more important. I
Speaker 3: think that the way that his father models this right,
Speaker 3: like that it it doesn't matter how much I accomplish.
Speaker 3: If my male spouse does not respect me, respect my competency,
Speaker 3: treat me like I you know that I have merit
Speaker 3: that's entirely mine. My son will not. My son will
Speaker 3: not interpret those things either, Like he needs to see
Speaker 3: that all women are a certain way, not just that
Speaker 3: his mom is, you know, because there's there's plenty, there's
Speaker 3: plenty of.
Speaker 2: Boys who had mothers who love them who turned out terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that I think that's where my my feeling
Speaker 3: that like the father as a question mark is like
Speaker 3: very important that especially, and and you know, we talk
Speaker 3: about girls who don't have who don't have strong father
Speaker 3: figures or whatever, which is true, but but boys I
Speaker 3: think who don't have, Like, I think what's going to
Speaker 3: turn a boy into an in cell is not so
Speaker 3: much the mother, but probably the father.
Speaker 1: Right, it's that whole Like every time I see these
Speaker 1: broie dudes who are being homophobic, it's and it's it's
Speaker 1: that's just so ironic to me because it's like, you
Speaker 1: don't even like women. Listen to the ways we talk
Speaker 1: about women. You don't like women. Oh they don't like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh they don't. It's true.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, men are Men are fragile and sensitive creatures.
Speaker 3: And you know, we know that's true because basically all
Speaker 3: of being a woman is how to how to you know,
Speaker 3: manipulate and engage with the fragile, sensitive creature.
Speaker 1: Of the man. And I think about this whole thing
Speaker 1: about equality, and I constantly say it, you know, when
Speaker 1: we're talking about civil rights and protests it's like the
Speaker 1: consensus to me seems to be we want equality, we
Speaker 1: want equal rights, we don't want to be inconvenienced in
Speaker 1: any way. And that and I notice that, and this
Speaker 1: is women, people of color. Equality does not mean you
Speaker 1: just having the freedom to be just like the shittiest
Speaker 1: white man, you know, me a little bit more. And
Speaker 1: a lot of times I feel like we get once
Speaker 1: we get into a position where we can treat people
Speaker 1: the way the shittiest white man they know can do it,
Speaker 1: that that's done. You know, we hit it, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of how we got here. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: It's yes, yes, it is.
Speaker 3: I wrote Girl Dinner from a place of betrayal, for sure.
Speaker 3: There are just too many, too many wives who sat
Speaker 3: there silent, and it's just like you're watching, You're watching
Speaker 3: that guy take rights away from you, from your daughter
Speaker 3: from like you know, there's the line and Girl Dinner
Speaker 3: about like you know, the women's day have fewer rights
Speaker 3: because they don't because of rovers Swede And it's just
Speaker 3: I think I just got you know, it's hard to
Speaker 3: write from a place of anger because I don't want
Speaker 3: to just yell at people, and especially especially you know,
Speaker 3: I understand that my audience thinks the way that I do.
Speaker 3: They see the world pretty similar to the way that
Speaker 3: I do, or they wouldn't be drawn to my work
Speaker 3: right right, And so it's it's kind of like, well,
Speaker 3: what do I want to say? That's still what story
Speaker 3: do I want to tell? That still that resonates, but
Speaker 3: it is not, I don't know, discouraging. And that was
Speaker 3: a hard that was a hard line to walk of,
Speaker 3: just like how do I draw attention to these things
Speaker 3: that I'm seeing that I feel are so such like
Speaker 3: you know, pinch points in this moment in time right
Speaker 3: that I feel it's my responsibility to to you know,
Speaker 3: I have your attention, so I want you to look
Speaker 3: at this thing. But also without just preaching to the choir.
Speaker 3: And that was honestly really hard. And that's the thing
Speaker 3: that I'm not sure if I'm done, I don't know
Speaker 3: we'll see.
Speaker 1: I mean, finding hope. It's the one weapon that we
Speaker 1: still have. And I am I am a hardcore optimist,
Speaker 1: like to the point of ridiculousness sometimes, like I can
Speaker 1: find the silver lining anything. It might be like very
Speaker 1: thin and slightly tarnished, but it's their damn it, but
Speaker 1: I'm it's getting a little harder to find the hope.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just like sometimes all I can do
Speaker 1: is just like, well, it has to work out, It
Speaker 1: just has to well.
Speaker 3: I think this is where I think hope comes in
Speaker 3: to the concept of randomness. That actually, I think we
Speaker 3: feel that we're on a trajectory that can only go
Speaker 3: a certain way, and in some ways we are right.
Speaker 3: I think those of us who are interested in and
Speaker 3: have studied history are very alarmed at this moment in time,
Speaker 3: But there are still lots of things that happen that
Speaker 3: are completely unpredictable. Who could have seen COVID coming, you know,
Speaker 3: And for better or worse, things happen that upset the trajectory.
Speaker 3: And that is the closest thing I can get to hope.
Speaker 3: That's just like, maybe the thing that I think is
Speaker 3: going to happen is not actually what's going to happen.
Speaker 3: It's something. It's kind of the advice I give people.
Speaker 3: It's the advice I give people on like an individualist level.
Speaker 3: That's just like, you know, if you're working towards something,
Speaker 3: if it's a creative career, it's you know, your love life,
Speaker 3: whatever you don't actually know what's going to happen next.
Speaker 3: You think you do, right, But what the wonderful thing
Speaker 3: and the terrifying thing about life is that you never
Speaker 3: actually know because the concept of randomness, and that's just
Speaker 3: the statistical probability that something completely unforeseen could happen.
Speaker 2: Still exists, right.
Speaker 3: And like the fact that we are having this conversation
Speaker 3: that I have come this far after being someone who
Speaker 3: is writing fan fiction on the internet, you know, like
Speaker 3: the statistical chance of this is so minute, and here
Speaker 3: we are.
Speaker 2: So that's my that's my silveriest lining.
Speaker 3: It's just like, honestly, we don't know what's happening next,
Speaker 3: yeah and so and so our responsibility then is to
Speaker 3: make the best possible choice given that we don't know
Speaker 3: for sure what's happening next.
Speaker 1: Right, as Martha would put it, just keep doing the
Speaker 1: next right thing.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I keep telling everyone that the Atlas series
Speaker 3: specifically has the exact.
Speaker 2: Same more all as Frozen two. It's it's it's the
Speaker 2: next right choice.
Speaker 1: Oh, Okay, I'm still gonna let it go.
Speaker 3: You let it go first, but then you make the yeah,
Speaker 3: that's that's Frozen one.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I still say and Martha Martha Puts put
Speaker 1: it first. She was like, the best way forward is
Speaker 1: for women to just stop fucking Republicans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, certainly you should stop fucking anyone who doesn't
Speaker 3: respect you, Okay, Like, I mean that's the one takeaway.
Speaker 3: Do not have sex with someone who does not respect
Speaker 3: not just you as a person, but you as as
Speaker 3: part of something you are like other girls, Okay, And
Speaker 3: like that means something right.
Speaker 1: And and then I think about Janelle Monet one of
Speaker 1: my favorite lyrics of hers of theirs, excuse me, we're
Speaker 1: gonna start a motherfucking pussy riot because we're won't put
Speaker 1: him on a motherfucking pussy die. I'm like, do it.
Speaker 1: The money and sex are the only things a lot
Speaker 1: of these people understand. And until you like cut off that,
Speaker 1: supply they're not going You're not going to have their attention,
Speaker 1: you know, unless women just start eating bitches, which I'm
Speaker 1: I'm still here for I you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know we can do that too.
Speaker 3: But the problem, you know, in Girl Dinner, I always
Speaker 3: say that Girl Dinner is not I don't really think
Speaker 3: of it as a horror novel because it's not gory.
Speaker 2: It's not about the act of eating. It's about the
Speaker 2: decision to.
Speaker 3: Eat right, and it's the decision who to eat, So
Speaker 3: we all have to get on board is a thing
Speaker 3: we as a movement have to decide who are we eating.
Speaker 1: That's important, right because I often say, you know, you
Speaker 1: only have to eat one.
Speaker 2: Rich Oh God, imagine how much good we could do too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, just and then with the fear of God,
Speaker 1: and just look at them and lick your lips one
Speaker 1: time and then they go, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I know, here's one hundred dollars at right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I just but yes, Getting getting back into the book,
Speaker 4: I appreciated besides the immediate themes, I appreciated how queer
Speaker 4: the book is.
Speaker 1: I appreciated how beige the book is. For lack of
Speaker 1: a better ter, like, it was clear that most of
Speaker 1: the character main characters weren't white, even if it wasn't
Speaker 1: specified what brand of not whiteness they were.
Speaker 3: I did I did want to briefly, okay because Girl
Speaker 3: Dinner doesn't really dig into this, but I did kind
Speaker 3: of want to talk about being white passing in terms
Speaker 3: of beauty standards, like okay, if you can pass, if
Speaker 3: you can clear the bar, for Western beauty. Then on
Speaker 3: some level you're forgiven you're not whiteness, right, But it's
Speaker 3: a compromise. It's a compromise if you don't take everybody
Speaker 3: else with you. I think this is the I think
Speaker 3: when you talk about, you know, can beauty be power
Speaker 3: or can sexuality be power? The answer is absolutely no, right, Like,
Speaker 3: there's no way to actually turn that into something. Beauty
Speaker 3: is not going to get you equal representation. So so
Speaker 3: I think the question then I didn't really get into
Speaker 3: it for Girl Dinner. I actually the next book that
Speaker 3: comes out next year, Dreamland, is about a white passing
Speaker 3: Filipina girl and kind of the ways that she uses
Speaker 3: her perceived.
Speaker 2: Whiteness as power quote unquote.
Speaker 3: It's something that I sort of began with Nina and
Speaker 3: and oh my god, I'm forgetting my own character and Tessa,
Speaker 3: you know this, Like Tessa specifically, she's like if I
Speaker 3: weren't this taught, I wouldn't be accepted or like, you know,
Speaker 3: if it I think.
Speaker 2: The line she says is the only thing I'm black
Speaker 2: enough for is racism. That's why I'm here because like yeah,
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 3: And so I think they, yeah, that you're right, Like
Speaker 3: they have an awareness of that. And there's a reason
Speaker 3: I don't get into Nina culturally because that's really not
Speaker 3: what this book is about. This book is about Nina
Speaker 3: is choosing the whiteness as power even though she doesn't
Speaker 3: actually have it, and so what does that mean for
Speaker 3: her future?
Speaker 1: Right? And that is so fraught. It's like what do
Speaker 1: you do once you have that access, because there's two
Speaker 1: paths you can go. You can just go along to
Speaker 1: get along and you know, sorry Mom, sorry dad, or
Speaker 1: you can you know, once you're inside, then you can
Speaker 1: start being subversive and like you know, reckonshit a little bit,
Speaker 1: but that's not really that's not often the path that's
Speaker 1: chosen because it's like, you know, once you once you
Speaker 1: get in the big house, you kind of want to like,
Speaker 1: you know, get comfy, you.
Speaker 3: Know, right right, and and other people who are like
Speaker 3: you but maybe less acceptable than you, they feel like
Speaker 3: a threat. And this is one of one of my
Speaker 3: friends I was talking about this. He likened it to
Speaker 3: like sometimes when a woman and I serve the same kind.
Speaker 2: Of purpose, like social purpose.
Speaker 3: If there's a group of us and there's like a
Speaker 3: woman who's like me, she's similarly performing her femininity, and
Speaker 3: she's also you know, doing well in her career or whatever.
Speaker 3: And then we kind of feel like we're superheroes, like
Speaker 3: we're the same we showed up to the superhero convention,
Speaker 3: but we have the same superpowers. So one of us
Speaker 3: has to leave, and I think there's there's you know,
Speaker 3: that still exists, and that that is the fallacy of scarcity,
Speaker 3: that there are not enough resources for all of us.
Speaker 3: And so part of this is like once, but once
Speaker 3: you can see that, once you can see the myth
Speaker 3: that like that the power can only be held by
Speaker 3: one person, right, then it feels better, I think, to
Speaker 3: clear that space. It's just like, actually, know, if there
Speaker 3: are two of us here, if there are more of
Speaker 3: us here, then we have more power than I can
Speaker 3: hold on my own. It might not feel that way,
Speaker 3: but that's the truth.
Speaker 1: Right, And that's the thing that people don't really think about.
Speaker 1: When you have biracial individuals like yourself, like myself, especially
Speaker 1: if you know half of that is white, you have
Speaker 1: that inside or outsider view that is unique, Like you
Speaker 1: know the language, you know the code, and you can
Speaker 1: speak it and it gets spoken to you, so you
Speaker 1: have access because like some of them I'm sure you
Speaker 1: experienced this, Like I was never I'm not white passing,
Speaker 1: but people often don't think that I'm black. So the
Speaker 1: things that get said to.
Speaker 3: Me, yes, yeah, and to some degree, ever know how
Speaker 3: much you're getting away with it.
Speaker 2: Either.
Speaker 3: The thing for me is I went to a predominantly
Speaker 3: white high school, and so Nina even says in the
Speaker 3: book that, like, there are certain moments when I could
Speaker 3: forget that I'm not white, right, like, because I like
Speaker 3: the same white things as my white friends, and you know,
Speaker 3: we think all these things, and then suddenly someone says
Speaker 3: something about me being Asian or meeting whatever, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: my camouflage wasn't as good as I thought, or like
Speaker 3: I thought that I had disappeared into this whiteness and
Speaker 3: I didn't, and and kind of the feeling that, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm not white passing to the extent that anyone would
Speaker 3: mistake me for completely white, right, but white passing enough
Speaker 3: that people don't see me as too foreign. And so
Speaker 3: I think there's this constant striving stay on the yeah,
Speaker 3: to stay on the safe side, you know, to stay
Speaker 3: on the you know, to be all sorts of things
Speaker 3: that are respectable. You know, it's respectability politics, and I wanted,
Speaker 3: you know, this is one of those things like I
Speaker 3: wanted to engage with it, but I couldn't get into it.
Speaker 3: It was more like I could just like identify these
Speaker 3: things that look at look at these girls and how
Speaker 3: they could provide different resources to each other, and will
Speaker 3: they choose to Right, that's kind of a question.
Speaker 1: Right, So in the world of oh, okay, well, first
Speaker 1: of all, do you see Girl Dinner as like that
Speaker 1: whole world? Do you see this story as being done
Speaker 1: or do you have plans for more?
Speaker 3: The thing is that I think you really have to
Speaker 3: end on the note of not really knowing what happens next.
Speaker 3: Like it's kind of it's a it's a Schrodinger's cat
Speaker 3: situation that you can't know what happens next because that
Speaker 3: changes how you feel about the ending. So it has
Speaker 3: to end here. But it's really funny that some people
Speaker 3: have been pitching me with like sequel ideas, and I'm like, uh,
Speaker 3: huh uh huh, yeah.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. It's like, I don't even know
Speaker 1: if I would want to say equal, but I am
Speaker 1: curious to know what you think is next for some
Speaker 1: of these girls. Of course, you can't really answer that
Speaker 1: without saying how it ends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a bit squilary.
Speaker 3: But it also I think that stasis is important because
Speaker 3: it's it's like, it's kind of like the feeling when
Speaker 3: I was doing a copy that it's not sure who
Speaker 3: is going to win the election, because on the money end,
Speaker 3: it was like, if Kamala won that election, were we done?
Speaker 2: Had we done the work? You know, did we need
Speaker 2: this book? Because like, if we.
Speaker 3: Can elect a black and Indian biracial woman to the
Speaker 3: highest office, did we do it? Well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know Obama ended racism, so right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Kamala would have ended misogyny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know, So ultimately, I think that feeling
Speaker 3: of like there is an optimistic view of this, there's
Speaker 3: a cynical view of this. I think it is my
Speaker 3: place to get out of the way and let you
Speaker 3: answer that for yourself. And so yeah, but I like
Speaker 3: open ended things. Honestly, I don't like epilogues. I don't
Speaker 3: like people to tell me what the ending is because
Speaker 3: I want the space to like come up with it
Speaker 3: myself as a reader. Right, So yeah, I'm I don't
Speaker 3: think I'm ever going to give that feeling of complete satisfaction.
Speaker 3: I've basically like pitched it at you and see where
Speaker 3: you take it from there.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, fair enough, the book is Girl Dinner. I
Speaker 1: highly recommend that everyone in the sound of our voice
Speaker 1: gets their own copy and reads it and come to
Speaker 1: your own conclusions. So, Olive, what is your Where is
Speaker 1: your favorite place to point people to to get their
Speaker 1: own copy of the book?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, always your local indie is the best
Speaker 3: possible place. But if you want to get a book
Speaker 3: that is personalized and signed by me, you can order
Speaker 3: through Village Well Books and Coffee. There's links on my
Speaker 3: website all of you Blake dot com. That is an option,
Speaker 3: but definitely go over to your local indie and it's
Speaker 3: great for all of us.
Speaker 1: We all win fabulous And if we wanted to learn
Speaker 1: more about you, you mentioned your website. Where else could
Speaker 1: we go to follow you?
Speaker 3: In my dreams, I get to flee the internet, But
Speaker 3: you can find me on Instagram as oli you Blake,
Speaker 3: on Tumblr as all of you Blake.
Speaker 2: That's actually the best place to find me. I still
Speaker 2: like Tumblr a lot.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, okay, Tumbler, I'm on Blue Sky.
Speaker 2: I have an account on Twitter, but I don't use it.
Speaker 3: And really, if you want to hear from me but
Speaker 3: like not too much, you know, just like a casual friendship,
Speaker 3: then you can subscribe for my newsletter on my website.
Speaker 3: Oh I'm also on YouTube. I have a YouTube channel.
Speaker 3: I'll be Blake is not writing, So if you ever
Speaker 3: have any questions about anything life, relationships, writing, you can
Speaker 3: ask me there.
Speaker 1: Okay, and I will put all of that information in
Speaker 1: the notes this episode. And I feel you on wanting
Speaker 1: to flee social media, like I just the timeline the
Speaker 1: other day. It was like two thousand and seven. If
Speaker 1: I didn't have this dance company to promote, I would
Speaker 1: get rid of all my social media. Then cut to
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. If I didn't have this bar to promote,
Speaker 1: I would get rid of all my social media, and
Speaker 1: then cut to twenty and twenty two. I didn't have
Speaker 1: this podcast promote, I'll get rid of myself. I hear you.
Speaker 1: It's a sewer, it really is.
Speaker 2: It is garbage.
Speaker 3: And you know, as each platform gets like monopolized device
Speaker 3: so much like I don't enjoy being in the zucker verse, okay,
Speaker 3: and he punishes you if you don't buy into the
Speaker 3: entire Zucker verse. So like, I have a feeling I'm
Speaker 3: gonna get pushed out, and I'm like, okay with that.
Speaker 3: I will let the door hit me on the way out.
Speaker 1: I know that's right. I'll of you, blake. It has
Speaker 1: been a pleasure, and I have a feeling this is
Speaker 1: not going to be the last time that we sit
Speaker 1: and chat.
Speaker 3: Oh wonderful. I look forward to the next time. And
Speaker 3: thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: It was wonderful to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and you have a fabulous.
Speaker 2: Day you too.
Speaker 1: By now. Full Circle is a Never Scurred Productions podcast
Speaker 1: hosted by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and
Speaker 1: edited by Never Scurred Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior
Speaker 1: and Martha Madrigal. Our theme in music is by the
Speaker 1: jingle Marys. All names, pictures, music, audio, and video clips
Speaker 1: are registered trademarks and or copyrights of their respective copyright holders.