WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:17.920 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:21.480 Barbury Lane. Welcome to another special episode of Full Circle 3 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:25.640 the podcast. I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr. And 4 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:29.079 today I'm thrilled to be sitting down with my guest. 5 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.000 She is a New York Times bestselling author. She has 6 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:40.119 written an amazing and fun and dark book darkly fabulous 7 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:44.000 will call it. It is called Girl Dinner, and I 8 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:48.359 am excited to have Olivi Blake in the house. Hi, Olivi, 9 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:48.880 how are you. 10 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:51.960 Hi, I'm great, Thank you so much for having me. 11 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.840 Thank you. I love this book. 12 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.280 Thank you. It was a great place to start. 13 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.840 I'm not sure what people are going to be of it, Honestly, 14 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:02.159 I'm still very nervous. 15 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.680 I mean, well, it tickled that part of my brain 16 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:10.239 that you know, I love, I love. I was a 17 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:14.200 gender studies minor, so it was like, yes, give it 18 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:14.560 to me. 19 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.799 Yeah, yeah, I was. 20 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:20.680 I studied urban planning in public policy, so very much, 21 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:23.799 you know, in the under the umbrella of sociology. This 22 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.280 is very much chapping into how have I been trained 23 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:27.480 to think right. 24 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:31.280 Right, right right? I guess the best place to start 25 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:34.400 is tell us what Girl Dinner is about. 26 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:38.560 Okay, So Girl Dinner is about the House. 27 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.760 It's the most prestigious, unnamed sorority on this equally unnamed 28 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.000 and elite university campus. And there are two perspectives. There's Nina, 29 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.159 who's the nineteen year old who's rushing the house. She 30 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:52.799 didn't have a great freshman year, but she's very ambitious. 31 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:55.319 She's super hungry, you know, she really wants big things 32 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.640 for her life, and she sees the house as her 33 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.000 opportunity to become one of those you know, powerful, beautiful, 34 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:03.959 perfect women that she's seen come out of it. And 35 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.640 then there the other character is Sloan. She's thirty three. 36 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:10.280 She is an adjunct professor, and she's just taken a step, 37 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.599 you know, sideways slash kind of backward in her career 38 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.199 in order to join her husband, who is a professor 39 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.919 at the same university. She has been with her daughter, 40 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.159 her newborn daughter, for the last eighteen months, and. 41 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:24.400 She's just now going back to work. 42 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:26.960 So she's having sort of the crisis of being the 43 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.159 postpartum woman who's her clothes don't fit and her brain 44 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.120 only works like thirty percent of the time. 45 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:33.520 That is very familiar to me. 46 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:37.840 And she also crosses paths with the house by way 47 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.639 of its alumnae. So she is looking at these women 48 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.159 who have come out of the house and is like, Wow, 49 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.319 how do they have it all? How are they achieving 50 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.159 all these things that I'm struggling with. And so as 51 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:52.800 both Nina and Sloane come to realize exactly how these 52 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:54.680 women do have it all, it's kind of they're kind 53 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.759 of asked, you know, what does power mean to them? 54 00:02:57.759 --> 00:02:59.639 And what are they willing to sacrifice for it? 55 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.360 And so much more. 56 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.280 Yeah, yeah, that was It's really really Girl Dinner started 57 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:11.039 as a punchline. I mean it was when obviously obviously 58 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.000 that's a reference to the meme I'm not on TikTok, 59 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.439 so like it reached me, like last I like to 60 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.960 joke that it reached me as you know Anne Hathaway's 61 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.919 cerulean sweater, you know, like trickled down to me. And 62 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:26.319 so then I was like, wouldn't it be funny if 63 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.520 I wrote a satire about a cannibal sorority and called 64 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.680 it girl Dinner and enough people laughed that here we are. 65 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:37.439 Okay, So I'm glad you said cannibalism because I was 66 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:41.719 trying to figure out how to talk about it without 67 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:43.479 talking about right. 68 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:45.039 No, no, no, we can just talk about it. The 69 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:45.879 thing is that. 70 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.000 I when I wrote this, or when I when I 71 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:49.719 told my editor and she's like, you have to write that, 72 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:51.319 I was like, don't you think there's been a lot 73 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:52.639 of cannibal books recently? 74 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.800 Like I had read a lot, at least four or. 75 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.080 Five books in twenty twenty three where it was like 76 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:58.919 the surprise twist is cannibalism. 77 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:01.120 And I was like, if we're if I'm. 78 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:02.960 Going to do this, if I'm going to contribute to 79 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:05.560 the canon of cannibalism, then I want it to be 80 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.479 to not turn on the twist like that. You can 81 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:11.199 kind of know the whole way through that you're like, 82 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.000 oh God, they're cannibals, aren't they. 83 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:17.160 So well it was funny because I was like, Okay, 84 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.639 so they're cannibals. Wait, they're witches, Wait they're vampire, They're 85 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:25.319 gonna be all of them watched Luckily there was no 86 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:32.000 wrong answer, and yeah, I love it, And and part 87 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.160 of me is like, hmmm, do I have a list? 88 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:40.879 But I don't think many of the people on my 89 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:46.079 list would be very nutritious for anyone. I also love 90 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:53.079 the themes of what is a good woman? I'm putting 91 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.959 that in their quotes and is there such a thing? 92 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.680 Right, Yeah, that's really the question. Bok is not trying 93 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.639 to answer the question. I will just say that straight up. 94 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:05.800 I think there's been a lot of people have been like, oh, 95 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:10.040 girl Dinner is like the start of this fem gore 96 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.680 trend or something, which it absolutely is not. Girl Dinner 97 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.519 is very much like in conversation with what I already 98 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.720 see as an identifiable trend, Like there's you know, the 99 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.600 woman having a meltdown is like pretty much my favorite 100 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:25.800 literary subgenre, and this is a book that is very 101 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.519 much one of those. But I think what's different about 102 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:33.879 Girl Dinner is that it's like it already it already 103 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.879 knows about those books, right, Like it already it's having 104 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.240 it's like breaking the fourth wall while it's having its 105 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.519 melt down, you know, because when I'm asking the question 106 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:44.519 what is a good woman? 107 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:50.680 And really I'm asking the question if we already know, 108 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.199 if there's already been so. 109 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:56.439 Much media Barbie Movie included that suggests that the answer 110 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:57.879 to can women have it all? 111 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.439 Is no? Then what do we get to have? 112 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.720 If the answer is little treats like are we functioning 113 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.839 in the postgirl boss little treats economy like that should 114 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:08.680 not be good enough for you, That shouldn't be good 115 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:11.319 enough for anyone. And so I think part of the 116 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.240 question of what are you willing to do to be 117 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.920 a good woman? And in what ways can you have 118 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.839 blind spots? In what ways can your understanding of your 119 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:27.759 own suffering or victimhood be myopic? I think it's this. 120 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.720 I really wanted to lean into the dissonance of what 121 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.319 is real suffering, Like what is power that we actually 122 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.720 don't have? What are resources that we really don't have, 123 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.040 and what do we think that power is right? 124 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:48.519 And and that's the thing. It's like this conversation all 125 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:55.959 lies on the foundation rickety as it is of the 126 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.959 power structure, that of the patriarchy. And that's like a 127 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.279 house of cards built on a sand dune, you know, 128 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.959 as we're kind of seeing, it's like it's all smoke 129 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.279 and mirrors. And now it's like, you know, they're showing 130 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:13.279 us the smoke and the mirrors, and we're still like, ooh, 131 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:14.079 look at the castle. 132 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:21.399 Yeah, my okay, My whole thing this is I think 133 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:25.319 some women may find it frustrating that this is not 134 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:27.879 a man hating book or like, this is not a 135 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.480 book about revenge against men. This is a book that's like, 136 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:32.120 what is the patriarchy doing to you? 137 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:32.759 Right? 138 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.600 And So the reason that I have to point that 139 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:37.519 out is because I think sometimes people go into this 140 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.800 expecting one thing. There's a lot of media that I 141 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.560 that I put under the Girl Boss umbrella, which is 142 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.040 the kind of thing where, you know, I think in 143 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:49.600 the twenty tens, it was very hot to be like, well, 144 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.800 you know, if we just if we just use these 145 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.839 products and if we just you know, embrace our sexuality 146 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.600 and beauty is power, and you know, all this the 147 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.800 lean in and all this stuff, and you know, we 148 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.360 just do these things. 149 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:06.120 It'll be fine. 150 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.560 And we're at a place now where it's like, Okay, 151 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.040 that didn't work, but all is not lost, right, because 152 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:15.879 I think if we can all collectively voice the patriarchy 153 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:19.120 as a problem, the patriarchy is the problem, what do 154 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:21.439 we do about it? And my concern is that at 155 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.079 this juncture, people are going the wrong way, right, Like 156 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:29.759 tradwives should not be the answer, true women not being 157 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:30.680 able to have it all. Right. 158 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:33.399 I understand. The thing is that I am sympathetic. 159 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.879 I am sympathetic to the younger generations of women who 160 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.799 feel like I don't want to do the you know, 161 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.799 chuggy millennial go get them girl boss thing. You know, 162 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:45.559 I get it that, like you're looking at what we 163 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.120 did and you think it's corny, and you know, people 164 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.639 make a joke of the pussy hats or whatever, but 165 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.039 like it did something right because it allowed women to women. 166 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:58.720 And you know, I'm using women as a very broad 167 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:03.960 term here to recognize that there's more we could have, 168 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.919 there's more we should have, right, And I understand that 169 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:11.559 one one outcome of that is to be like, well, 170 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:14.159 I'm not even gonna try, right, Like, if the road, 171 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:17.360 you know, if the road to having it all is 172 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.720 doomed to fail, then all right, trad wifery it is. 173 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:22.000 But that's a huge problem. 174 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.480 I mean, the whole the whole concept, really, Girl Dinner 175 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.320 is just kind of it's just feminism question mark. 176 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.279 And it's like, what does your feminism look like? 177 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:39.840 Because if your feminism, if your feminism has exceptions anywhere, right, 178 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.840 if your if your feminism does not, if it has exclusions, 179 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:48.120 then not only is it probably not feminism, but it's 180 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.519 doomed to fail, right, you know, like the patriarchy. Taking 181 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:57.399 down the patriarchy is an uphill battle. It's systemic, it's institutional, 182 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.279 it's like really embedded in every possible way. And so 183 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.840 if you're saying, you know, the trans women or the 184 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.039 disabled women or the women of color does not have 185 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:11.039 a place in your movement, then there's not enough of you, period, right, 186 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.679 And if your power is contingent on a man's power, 187 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:16.519 then you don't actually have it. 188 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:17.320 It's just a myth. 189 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.799 So, and I also wanted to talk about just the pure, 190 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.039 you know, amusing to me if it weren't so terrible 191 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:28.200 hypocrisy of the tradwife concept or the concept of a 192 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:32.440 traditional woman's role. When the women who are popularizing this 193 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:38.559 are extremely wealthy and they're working, they're a brand, they 194 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:42.080 create content. They are not traditional women, and they were 195 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.320 given those resources by the feminists that came before them. 196 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.279 Yeah yeah, right, yeah, so right, So you know that's 197 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.039 why I was like, this has to be a satire. 198 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.360 This has to be you know, it has to be funny, 199 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.279 It has to be kind of like a left. 200 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:04.720 Through nausea kind of feeling. But it also, you. 201 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.559 Know, I recognize that like, truly conservative women are not 202 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.320 going to read this book right, like they're like, you know, 203 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:12.799 there are people that can't be helped. But I also 204 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:14.399 think there's lots of people who are like, oh, I'm 205 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:17.399 liberal except for this thing, or like, oh, I'm liberal, 206 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:19.919 but I think Taylor Swift should be cognizant that her 207 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.120 audience is too young for her to sing about Dix. 208 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:29.399 And it's just like and it's like. 209 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:32.759 Can a woman make or she wants to or not? 210 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.120 This is a totally this is a totally minor example. 211 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.240 It's just that this week alone, five different women have 212 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.039 said that to me, Like, is this some sort of 213 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.120 talking point online? 214 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.320 I don't know, but you know, I think. 215 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.559 It's just it's this weird like I guess I'm asking 216 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.399 the question question, what are you policing and why? 217 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.440 Right? We live in a post wop era, so that 218 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:52.960 very argument is just. 219 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.480 Has everyone forgotten that? I'm worried people have forgotten. 220 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.840 That's like that was like a praiseworthy moment for me. 221 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.159 It's like, you know, these women are talking about men 222 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:09.240 the way men have been talking about women in the 223 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:11.639 same genre all this time, but they're in charge and 224 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.320 they're getting paid do that shit take off more. I 225 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:15.960 don't give a shit. 226 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.639 Yeah, and I you know, and so yeah, and this 227 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.120 is the sort of this is what I mean Also 228 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.799 by like being in conversation with all this, someone asked 229 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.879 me recently, like what. 230 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.159 What singular event radicalized me? 231 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:34.480 Right, And that's there's nothing, you know, But I'm a 232 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:36.759 woman who grew up in thee I grew up in 233 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.559 the two thousands, so I was there, you know, when 234 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.679 Britney Spears shaved her head and Lindsay Lohan did whatever 235 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.559 Lindsay Lohan did, and like the whole thing would be 236 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:48.919 as skinny as possible, whatever thing, all the things, you know, 237 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.200 all the Lindsay loyand things, and you know, and and 238 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.519 when everyone was just so cruel to like Jessica Simpson, 239 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.679 I don't even know. And what I internalized from all 240 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.639 of that and being biracial and not seeing anyone who 241 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.720 looked like me and all of this is just like 242 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.200 this feeling like I've got to be a guys girl. 243 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:08.799 I've got to be a cool girl. I've got to 244 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:12.240 be not like other girls. That's that's where I started from, right, 245 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:14.720 And so to be where I am now, I owe 246 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:18.679 all of that to the many different feminist movements that 247 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:19.919 happened along the way, the. 248 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.720 Me Too movement, for example, the pussy hats. 249 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.559 You know, the fact that I understand, like I said, 250 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:31.000 why people kind of look at the things that we did, 251 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:34.200 the like hope core of the Obama era and see 252 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:38.240 that as being you know, yeah, you know, mainly virtue 253 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.679 signaling or whatever. But it was not for naught. You know, 254 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.840 like it wasn't for nothing. Because if I can sit 255 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.000 here and you know, say that it's actually not acceptable 256 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:50.600 to laugh at jokes that objectify me, or jokes that 257 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.039 are racist, or it's not okay, you know that there 258 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.519 are there are things that like that I'm allowed to 259 00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:59.759 identify as not acceptable. I think that's like that speaks 260 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.360 to how how far we've come socially, not just as 261 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:04.799 I have matured as an individual, Like this is something 262 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.039 that like the world has taught me. 263 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:07.440 This is an attitude I can take. 264 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.480 So, you know, while I approach many things with cynicism 265 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:16.039 in this book, I think there's a lot of there's 266 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.960 a lot of value to asking what can we do 267 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.399 from here? Where can we go from here? That allows 268 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.559 more of us, most of us, to have the power 269 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:26.840 that we want. 270 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:32.200 Right, and how much longer can we go before women 271 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.200 actually really do snap and start biting bitches? 272 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.480 Because I am pretty obsessed. 273 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:45.240 I'm pretty obsessed with the intersection of femininity, culture and violence, 274 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.360 Like at what point do we become violent? 275 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:49.120 And what does feminine violence look like? 276 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:59.360 Right? And I love it because I'm sick of man 277 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.200 shit and I am my man, you know what I'm saying. 278 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.559 So it's like if and I recognize that, you know, 279 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.080 I fall on that spectrum where like someone might want 280 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:09.960 to take a chunk out of my leg too, but 281 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:16.440 you know what, so be it. It obviously doesn't really 282 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.759 work anymore when men do it, Like so like at 283 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.159 the very least, like how much worse could a woman 284 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:30.639 fuck up? I mean, come on, come, oh. 285 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.639 Great points, great points. I yeah, no, And it's you know, 286 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.120 I have to I do. I have to emphasize it 287 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.039 not being a man hating book, because like, I'm a 288 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:41.919 woman married to a man, I have a son. 289 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.960 It's important to me that, like it's not like we're 290 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:46.559 targeting a. 291 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.200 Group for erasure, you h of course, Well, you know, 292 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.600 I have to say these things. There are people who 293 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:53.399 need to hear. 294 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.159 These, right, Yeah, yeah, it's just. 295 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.879 Like it's not you know, I do think there are 296 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.639 pitfalls to suggesting to kind of like the man hating jokes, 297 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.559 you know, not that they shouldn't be made, not that 298 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.159 they aren't earned, but that there still has to be 299 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.519 a role for men. There still has to be like 300 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.440 an understanding of what is a good man. I think 301 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:14.720 that's also implied when you ask the question what's a 302 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:17.879 good woman, you are necessarily asking the question what's a 303 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.440 good man? And so, you know, it's something that I 304 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.799 all of my works are very existential. They're really all 305 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.960 about like what does it mean to live well? And 306 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.840 I think some of that means removing yourself as an 307 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.120 individual and thinking more of the collective. I guess it's 308 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.159 existential and it's humanist. That's like, if we make things 309 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.639 better for everyone, even people you don't like, that means 310 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.320 it's better for everyone. 311 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:45.559 Even you. 312 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.000 And I think that's the mindset, right, That's the mindset 313 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.200 that I find is missing from a lot of people 314 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.639 and that I try to encourage in these roundabout ways. 315 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.679 It's just like, you know, if we could make everybody's 316 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:01.879 life a little bit better. I talk a lot about 317 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.559 how you know, there's all, there's all this you know 318 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:09.240 about the male loneliness epidemic, when really what it is 319 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.799 is a capitalist driven loneliness epidemic that is not specific 320 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:13.160 to men. 321 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:14.839 Women are lonely too. 322 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.759 And it's but but people are more in crisis over 323 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.160 men being lonely because it's unusual because it hasn't happened before, 324 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.440 or like women waiting longer for marriage or not getting 325 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.400 married or not choosing to have children that is new, 326 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.440 and so people are more worried, like what happens to 327 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.839 the men. But the answer is everybody is lonely. If 328 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.519 we can make things better for women, it would make 329 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:36.559 things better for men. 330 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:37.119 Right. 331 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.279 But again, I don't expect men to. 332 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.519 Read this book either, so I don't really know how 333 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:43.359 to reach them. 334 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.839 I'll do my part. I'll as it's on you. 335 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:50.960 Charlespread the word like. 336 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:58.200 But like that whole male loneliness thing, it's like, have 337 00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.759 you met you? I wouldn't want to hang out. 338 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.759 With you, Eve, I know? 339 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.119 Yeah, yeah you really? What what's the the South Korean movement? 340 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.000 That's like a number and a letter? 341 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:08.599 Is it four B? 342 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.720 Is it something like that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an. 343 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.400 Interesting it's an interesting concept. 344 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.160 Because it's like, yeah, there, what's good about it is 345 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.880 that it's actionable, it has a deliverable It's like, unless 346 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.279 you give us these things that we that we want. 347 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.240 You know, there's there's a moment in Girl Dinner. Okay, 348 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:26.799 let me back up mentally. 349 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:27.880 So I wrote Girl. 350 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.839 Dinner in twenty twenty three before the twenty twenty four 351 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.079 presidential election, and there was a moment when you know, 352 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.400 I was going into I think it was copy ed 353 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.880 it's and I had sort of like it's like what 354 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.400 you know, there's a line where one of the characters, Jazz, 355 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.599 she is she's Nina's twin sister, and she's complaining about 356 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:48.960 the shirts that you see white. 357 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:49.759 Women wear at yoga. 358 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.119 You know, that's just like you know, like a you 359 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.160 go girl boss and like she's like, I hate these 360 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.599 shirts and all they do is benefit some CEO that's 361 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:58.839 probably a man, and like and she's like, and I 362 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.319 think the original line was that we can't have a 363 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:02.200 woman in office. 364 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.400 We're too emotional for that. And then I was like, 365 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.640 let's be optimistic. What if Kamala wins, what if this. 366 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.720 Happens, and like, let's you know, I don't want to 367 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.400 be the person who accidentally like, I don't know, jinx 368 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.720 is this. So then I changed the line too, we 369 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.519 can't have too many women in office. We're too emotional 370 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.559 for that, right. And then when I was then when 371 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:25.519 the election actually happened and I was sort of sitting 372 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:28.440 with my feelings on it, I changed that line to 373 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.240 what it ultimately is, which is we can't have equal 374 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.519 representation because I think that is the real deliverable, right, Like, 375 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:38.240 that's the actual thing that we want, that we deserve. 376 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.880 That is not unreasonable to ask for. You know, if 377 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.039 the whole point is about if the model of the 378 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.599 republic is built on representation, then it is not unreasonable 379 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.880 to say there should be an equal number of feminine representatives. Right, 380 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:55.799 That's not a crazy thing to say, it is. 381 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:57.680 So yeah, And so that. 382 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.640 Was when, you know, it was funny to just I'm 383 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.519 using the one little line as a microcosm. But I 384 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.920 think that's what makes the difference between the things. 385 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:06.480 That I identify as like girl bossy. 386 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.039 That's just like you know that it's just like, oh, 387 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.720 we're just we're just complaining about men generally, We're just 388 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.920 complaining about the state of things. No, this is a 389 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.160 very specific complaint, and it's one that I can stand 390 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.759 on and that feels like there's something productive to come 391 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:21.079 out of. 392 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.440 It, right, It's that whole thing like, well, not all men, 393 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.000 to which I always respond, yeah, but enough of you 394 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.039 motherfuckers to warrant the conversation. 395 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.920 Exactly exactly, not all men, but certainly enough men. 396 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:35.240 And always men. 397 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.599 And always men. Yeah, someone else is saying something. 398 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.759 One of the one of the books that I well, 399 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:45.839 like the main book that I talk about in the acknowledgments, 400 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.319 because in the acknowledgements, I'm like, this is not an 401 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.920