WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.120 Oh yeah, I've had people say they want me to 2 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.200 get at least two good Charles CW. Cook rants out 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:10.080 of you with a Molly Coddle in each one or 4 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:11.320 something or it's equivalent. 5 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:14.400 Right, I'm trying to find some what that mocks me out. 6 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:20.239 Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask 7 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:22.239 what you can do for your country. 8 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:30.000 Mister Gorbacho, tear down this wall. It's the Ricochet Podcast. 9 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.439 Steve Hayward sitting in the host chair today, joined by a. 10 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:37.560 Recovered Charles CW. Cook. So let's have ourselves a podcast. 11 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:42.439 And you know, it's not like I agree with everything 12 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:47.079 the administration does. So it's like there's I mean, I 13 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:49.799 agree with much of what the administration does, but we 14 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:51.039 have differences of opinion. 15 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.560 So then I'm a little. 16 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.679 Stuck in a bind where I'm like, well, I don't 17 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:58.719 want to, you know, speak up against the administration, but 18 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.600 I don't want to also don't want to take responsibility 19 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.000 for the administrations doing. 20 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:08.680 Welcome everybody to the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred and 21 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:12.480 forty four. It's Steve Hayward sitting in for James Lilax today, 22 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.079 who is comforting somewhere over in the wilds of Italy. 23 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.239 I am in the North Atlantic, where it is snowing 24 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.879 at the moment. I'm so far north, but I'm pleased 25 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.959 that we are joined by the fast recovering Charles C. W. Cook, 26 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.400 who's been down with the bubonic plague or something like that. Charles, 27 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.719 how are you feeling and what have you been going 28 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:35.120 through the last couple of weeks? 29 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.280 A man, I don't quite know what it is. I 30 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.480 thought it was strap because I work up with a 31 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:44.719 horrendous razor blade esque sore throat, and then it wasn't 32 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:46.799 strapped because that went away pretty quickly. But all these 33 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:48.879 other symptoms came along and now I have what is 34 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.560 really a glorified cold. That's the best part thus far 35 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.560 of my journey. I feel like I'm on the exit ramp. Aha. 36 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:58.599 Well, sounds like I'm about to put to sea. When 37 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:00.799 the sound of that horn blowing in the background, I don't. 38 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:01.560 Know if you heard that or not. 39 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.439 On the exit round then no, I am not right. 40 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:08.719 Well you sound good, Charles, so it's good to hear 41 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:12.000 your voice again. I don't know whether you've been, you know, 42 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.719 in bed, in your cozy your sheets, perhaps avoiding all 43 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:19.680 the news, but The thing that is amazing me, and 44 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.039 I think everyone is the I think what some people 45 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:26.479 thought was the inevitable divorce of Donald Trump and Elon 46 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.000 Musk has finally occurred. 47 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.840 Who knew that the long prospected civil war. 48 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.120 For America would turn out to be between the forces 49 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.080 of Duke Elon of Musk against the Viscount Donald of 50 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.960 trump Landia. But here we are, and I don't know 51 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.479 where you want to start. I'll give you one of 52 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:47.960 my opening observations, which is I long expected something like 53 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:50.159 this for reasons that I think are obvious but maybe 54 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.919 are worth discussing. But one of the blows that Musk 55 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:57.479 threw down, which I thought was quite outrageous, was saying 56 00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:58.879 Trump is. 57 00:02:58.719 --> 00:02:59.680 In the Epstein. 58 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:01.280 Yeah. 59 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.120 First of all, I'll say this, I don't think there 60 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:06.680 are any Epstein files or an Epstein list, or if 61 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:09.319 there was one, it was long ago destroyed and recreating 62 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.400 it is a difficult thing. And second, if there was 63 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:14.639 such a list, I don't know how Elon Musk would 64 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.319 know who was on it. So that's my first observation, 65 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.319 and then I have several. But I want to hear 66 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.080 what do you have to say about this? Which I'm 67 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:23.719 sure you may have expected. 68 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:28.120 To well, unless that is true, which, for the reason 69 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:31.039 jee outline strikes me as very unlikely. That is a 70 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:34.560 truly outrageous thing for Musk to have said, and we 71 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:37.319 ought not to lose sight of that, purely because the 72 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:41.080 drama is so interesting. You just do not accuse people 73 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.800 of being a sex criminal in the midst of an 74 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:52.360 argument for giggles, I think that Musk is on a 75 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:57.319 manic episode. I mean, the closest analogue that I can 76 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.319 find to the last twenty four hours of Musk is 77 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:02.240 Kanye West. 78 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:02.960 Now. 79 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.560 I say that as somebody who admires Musk in many ways, 80 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:10.360 as a great American eccentric inventor of a long line 81 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:16.680 of such people, all of whom are crazy. But the 82 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.000 behavior yesterday struck me as being redolent of someone who 83 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.920 has got to be in his bonnet and is now 84 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:26.279 looking for any weapon at hand. In the course of 85 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:32.279 yesterday's trade, Musk suggested that Donald Trump is a sex 86 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.959 criminal and is on the Epstein list. He said that 87 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:41.720 he was going to dismantle SpaceX's program. He said that 88 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:44.600 he wanted Donald No, he didn't say, that's not fair. 89 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:51.160 He retweeted the suggestion that Trump be impeached and replaced 90 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:56.920 with JD. Vance. I mean, these are extreme rhetorical positions 91 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.000 to take, and he just did it one by one, 92 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.319 and I think it just struck me as being manic. 93 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.319 Yeah, well, now, if I have this right, he made 94 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.120 his formal exit a week or more ago, which I 95 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:09.959 think was on the way anyway. I mean, he was 96 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:12.959 always going to be a temporary government employee, and there's 97 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.040 like specified in the law of how long you can 98 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.120 be such a person with aut all kinds of complications happening. 99 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.720 But then it was shortly after that he criticized the 100 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:26.720 big Beautiful bill for I think rightly. I think you'll 101 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.000 agree that that it didn't cut down the deficit. That's 102 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.319 really uh. I forget what he called it a travesty 103 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.519 or worse, And it seems to be Charles. He's right 104 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:36.879 about that, isn't he. I mean, we talked about this 105 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.399 before and should say more about it, but that seemed 106 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:40.279 to set off Trump. 107 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:42.839 One caveat with that. I think he is right about that. 108 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.480 Donald Trump doesn't care about spending, he doesn't want to 109 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.199 reform entitlements, and he has different political imperatives than Musk 110 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:52.800 Musk is more of a free marketeer. But the one 111 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:55.240 thing Musk has done on this that I found irritating 112 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:00.839 Steve is that he will not say aloud the truth 113 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:06.680 about our fiscal problems. He will not say that this 114 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:13.000 is being caused by unfunded entitlements, that without reforming Social 115 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:17.120 Security or Medicare, you cannot fix the budget. He's still saying, 116 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.639 as he did throughout his fora with Doge, that this 117 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.040 is the question of pork. That's the word he used 118 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.600 in his tweet criticizing the bill. 119 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:26.560 Pork. 120 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:29.360 No, there is pork, of course there is. There is 121 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.000 discretionary spending that should be cut. There's also some ways 122 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:33.920 for auden abuse, although there's not that much of it. 123 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:38.000 There's also spending that the executive controls, as in, for example, 124 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.279 USAID that absolutely should be cut by a Republican administration. 125 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.560 But that's not why we're hurtling off the cliff. We're 126 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.399 hurtling off the cliff because however much we raise taxes, 127 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:52.040 we cannot outpace the growth in Social Security and Medicare. 128 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:54.879 And it's just telling to me that Musk won't say 129 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.720 that either. In that sense, he's being Trumpian while criticizing Trump. 130 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.319 But generally, yes, I am on Musk side with this question. 131 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:05.680 Yeah, that was a good warm up rant, Charles. Listeners 132 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:09.639 will appreciate that you clearly your vigor is returning in 133 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.000 a rapid clip. Well, let's linger on this for a minute. 134 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.120 I thought one notable event of the last ten days 135 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:20.360 was Jamie Diamond, the very capable chairman of JP Morgan. 136 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:22.800 Let's remember JP Morgan is one of the only big 137 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.279 banks that was not in serious trouble back in two 138 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.079 thousand and eight, and I think Diamond deserves a lot 139 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:28.759 of credit for that. 140 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.160 As any CEO should. And he's a Democrat. 141 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:35.639 He was widely rumored to have been on a short 142 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.360 list to be Treasury Secretary for either candidate, but especially 143 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.839 if we had had God forbid President Harris. And he 144 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:45.879 made this speech last week out at the Rank and 145 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:51.720 Library significantly perhaps that Gosh. 146 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:51.920 We can't keep going on like this. 147 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.399 The spending is so far out of control and the 148 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.399 debt is piling up so fast that sooner or later, 149 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:00.319 And I think he said he thought sooner the bond 150 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.839 market was going to make this clear. Yeah, I guess 151 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:04.839 my gloomy view has been all along is nothing is 152 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.399 going to happen until we have a crisis, at which 153 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.040 point the solutions will all be much worse than what 154 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.279 could be done now, no matter how difficult things are now. 155 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.319 I think that's exactly right. It's also worth noting that 156 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.319 while that crisis might come in the form of a 157 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.600 rebellion within the bond market, there are automatic cuts to 158 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.279 social Security that will kick in if we don't fix this. 159 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.480 So some of the rhetoric you hear, especially from the Democrats, 160 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:33.360 that we should not do anything. Hillary Clinton said when 161 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:36.559 she was running for president we should decrease the age 162 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:39.840 of which one is eligible for Social Security and Medicare. 163 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.559 That is certainly a popular idea among the Alexandria Acasia 164 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.879 Cortes types. Well, that's not an option that is not 165 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:52.399 going to happen. If we do nothing, we don't move 166 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.879 into sunlit uplands in which everyone keeps getting Social Security 167 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:58.960 in Medicare, and we just risk some sort of default 168 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:02.200 the law asset stands that would have to be executed 169 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:04.440 by whatever president is unlucky enough to be in office 170 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.559 at that time will do the cutting for Congress unless 171 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.200 it is amending. So yeah, I think we're headed for 172 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.279 either a crisis in the bond market or some sort 173 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.279 of catastrophic economic catastrophe you know that that is caused 174 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:24.039 by debts being unable to be repaid, or we're going 175 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.879 to see exactly what it is that those who don't 176 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:31.399 want to cut entitlements say is a crisis because it 177 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:32.080 has to happen. 178 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.639 Well, now, another aspect of this fight that's been going 179 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.799 on is Trump saying, well, I know how we could, 180 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.279 you know, balance the budget or reduce the deficit, and 181 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.600 that's to cut off the billions and billions of dollars 182 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:48.320 of Tesla subsidies. So, first of all, I don't think, 183 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:50.840 I don't think it amounts of billions and billions. 184 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:51.159 I don't know. 185 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:52.840 I haven't looked at the numbers for a long time. 186 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:56.799 Second of all, you know I'm thinking about the electric 187 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.840 car market. Is if you go back to before the election, 188 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:04.120 I remember distinctly Musk telling I think the Wall Street 189 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.440 Journal that got should be fine with me. If we 190 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.720 got rid of all the subsidies that Biden laid out, 191 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.639 it might actually be good for Tesla because, as you 192 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.960 probably know, and many listeners may know, Tesla is actually 193 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:18.720 able to produce their cars profitably with one caveat I'll 194 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.720 come back to. While I think GM and Ford are 195 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:24.360 still losing something like thirty or forty thousand dollars for 196 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.399 every single electric car they produce, which and they're not 197 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:29.799 making it up on volume, as. 198 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.240 The old joke goes, right, And. 199 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.679 So I think what I think Musk realizes that he 200 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:40.320 has a competitive advantage, having been at this now for 201 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.799 more than fifteen years of making the electric cars that 202 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.200 the other companies are not able to catch up with 203 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.120 and haven't been able to and it gets worse, and 204 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.200 this is the caveat. So we talk about the subsidies 205 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.840 which the Biden budget blowout tried to limit or to 206 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.759 middle income people and strip away from hir income people 207 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.360 who were collecting most of the tax credits for electric 208 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.519 cars beforehand. But it turns out that Tesla makes a 209 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:12.399 lot of money selling emission credits to the other automakers 210 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:15.039 who aren't able yet to meet some of the ambitious 211 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.360 targets for lowering the emissions or the mileage requirements of 212 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.120 their car fleets. So you know, that's actually a more 213 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.360 important subsidy in my mind, because I think that's a 214 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.679 more reckless and dumb subsidy anyway that starts the market. 215 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.399 So and I haven't seen any acknowledgment of that in 216 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:34.159 the in the media coverage or the social media. 217 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:36.039 A fury about what's going on. 218 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.480 No, and I think Trump is being really unfair here 219 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:41.679 to mask This is a line that has been picked 220 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.120 up in Congress as well. He's just against this because 221 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:46.240 he doesn't want to lose his subsidies. He's been pretty 222 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:50.080 consistently opposed to those subsidies. The one thing that he 223 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.879 has said alongside opposing subsidies for evs is that he 224 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.320 doesn't want any subsidies for oil and gas either, so 225 00:11:57.399 --> 00:11:59.639 he'd like a level playing field. But it's just not 226 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.759 the ca that he is angry with this bill because 227 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.000 it kills the subsidies. It should kill more subsidies. Steve, 228 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.879 I think Republicans are missing an opportunity. I have said, 229 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:13.039 and I always miss out the border funding. So that's 230 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.519 my fault because I do support that. But the bill 231 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:17.480 I would like to have seen and will adding the 232 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.399 border funding as well, would have said. The twenty seventeen 233 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.440 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act is hereby renewed permanently. The 234 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:30.080 twenty twenty two Inflation Reduction Act is hereby repealed in 235 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.320 its entirety. There's no reason Republicans should be allowing any 236 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:36.279 of these subsidies to go through. And the left ha's 237 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.360 got this idea that we simply can't compete with China 238 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.120 technologically without the Inflation Reduction Act, which is a preposterous 239 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:44.879 thing to think, given that we were doing pretty well 240 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:48.840 at competing technologically with China prior to twenty twenty two. 241 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:53.039 So I don't think that Musk is basing his opposition 242 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:57.440 to this on eve subsidies or mandates or what you will. 243 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:01.200 I think he's genuinely worried about the name since fiscal situation. 244 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.879 But as with Doge, he is mischaracterizing a little bit 245 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.679 what is causing that, and that's going to be a 246 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:10.159 problem for him in this fight. 247 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:11.200 Right. 248 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:16.240 Well, now the subsidy question, the Biden people were dabblishly 249 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.159 clever in directing a lot of the money to rip states. 250 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.240 Yep. And so you know, you know what happens. 251 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.639 It's just like the whole ethanol game in Iowa all 252 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:24.120 over again. 253 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:24.440 Right. 254 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.639 Republican presidential candidates are always petrified against coming out for 255 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.399 the ethanol mandates and subsidies because that's the first the 256 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.000 nation primaries we all know, or caucus every four years, 257 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:40.000 and this has now expanded that idea. So you have 258 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.159 a lot of these red state senators in the Midwest 259 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.840 who love these subsidies for wind and solar power because 260 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:48.879 it's you know, creating the phony government funded jobs there. 261 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.759 It does turn out I did a calculation on this 262 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:53.840 a long time ago now, but it turns out that 263 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:56.320 one mischievous proposal will put an end to a lot 264 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.000 of this, which is all right, let's have uniform subsidence 265 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:05.200 the East based on not the technology, but on the 266 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.159 energy output that you're able to produce. Because it turns 267 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.879 out that even if you say the oil and gas 268 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.200 industry get x millions of dollars in subsidies, they produce 269 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:20.320 eighty percent of our energy, right, and so the subsidy 270 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.240 and you can argue about what qualifies as a subsidy, 271 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:28.279 but if you go by the subsidy for per BTU 272 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.440 or water or whatever energy measurement you wish to use, 273 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.879 you find out that the subsidy for oil and gas 274 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:38.159 is iiny, it's minuscule. And if you got rid of 275 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.519 all the subsidies, oil and gas wouldn't change their output 276 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.440 a bit, whereas if you reduce the subsidies or made 277 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:46.759 it linked to the energy output wind and solar in 278 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:49.559 particular would have a really time. I do think the 279 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.679 one wild card here, and sorry to ramble a bit, 280 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.960 is a nuclear power. I'm very frustrated with this whole subject, 281 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.519 and I don't understand why we have not been able 282 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.639 to figure out over all these years how to drive 283 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:06.159 the cost down. And so there the argument as well, 284 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.960 if we really want big baseload power, it might, by 285 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:12.559 the way, still survive. When are my theoretical proposal of 286 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.120 having a uniform subsidy for a unit of energy produced, 287 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.159 I'm not sure. 288 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.679 I'd have to do some advanced math on all that. 289 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.000 But that's the other caveat about And apparently it's been 290 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.799 a big argument among Republicans in the House and the 291 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.399 Senate as to how to treat the nuclear subsidies in 292 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:31.559 the big beautiful bill. 293 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.360 Yeah, nuclear is an odd one in the I almost 294 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.519 feel that we should subsidize nuclear just to offset all 295 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.000 of the crap that those who want to put nuclear 296 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:42.960 power into effect I had to deal with over the 297 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.879 last fifty years. You know, we had a small look, 298 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:52.440 I'm not big on great national plans. You know, I 299 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.039 am romantic about the highway system because I love cause, 300 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.519 but I do take the conservative criticism of it, which 301 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.440 was that it was ultimately a federal program. But I 302 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.440 would be much more open to a grand national project 303 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.120 to nuclearize all of our power than to almost anything else, 304 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.360 So I can see some sort of room for that. 305 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:23.519 The system you just described, though, with subsidies, does make 306 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.320 the case for abolishing the minuscule oil and gas subsidies, right, 307 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:31.559 because if they wouldn't output any less energy as a 308 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.399 result of it going away, then why do we need it. 309 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.360 It's just a small distortion in the market. But yeah, 310 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:49.679 I I think that the bill is a problem if 311 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.960 you are worried about our fiscal situation, and it's a 312 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:58.240 problem if you want Republicans to do more. Where Trump also, Steve, 313 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:00.480 and I wonder what you think about this, where Trump 314 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.000 also has the upper hand, is just as a matter 315 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:08.200 of elemental political gravity, it is the case that we 316 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.000 have what one two votes to spare in the House 317 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.200 of Representatives, and that a lot of the people who 318 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.119 are going to be expected to push this over the 319 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.079 line are squishes. Now yesterday, Elon Musk tweeted out, should 320 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:32.279 we create a new party, a third party for the 321 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.279 eighty percent of people in the middle who don't feel 322 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:37.559 represented by the geopy or the Democrats. I think that 323 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.039 is an exaggeration. I don't think it is quite eighty percent, 324 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.000 But of course there are a lot of independents who don't. 325 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.720 What I think is unusual about this suggestion, though, and 326 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:50.160 does demonstrate a certain naivety on Mask's part. Is Number one, 327 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.119 we have what was a fairly decisive victory from Donald 328 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.880 Trump in twenty twenty four, and still he can't get 329 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:00.759 half of what Republicans would like to do. On why 330 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.640 does Musk think that would get better if you created 331 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.799 a party in the middle? And second, is he really 332 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:11.000 under the impression that the middle of the political spectrum 333 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.240 in the United States is desperately in favor of cutting entitlements? 334 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:15.960 Because I don't think it is. 335 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.200 Is it right? Well, this is one of those cases, 336 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.079 and I've experienced this from Silicon Valley and tech people 337 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.759 for years now. Is they they tend to not understand 338 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.200 why social and political problems can't be solved exactly like 339 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.599 an engineering problem. And look, Musk is in some ways 340 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:35.559 the perfect median voter. Let's recall that fifteen years ago 341 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.599 he was all in for Obama and I don't remember 342 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.640 if he was for Biden or not eight years ago 343 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.680 or whatever, but or four years ago, and now he's 344 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.880 then he flipped to Trump, and now he's slipped somewhere 345 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.680 in the middle. And I think that's just someone who 346 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.279 doesn't really understand politics. I think that's exactly right that 347 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.519 we've been hearing about the angry middle is going to 348 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.079 rise up and organize for at least since Ross Parrot, 349 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.759 if not earlier. It never happens. It doesn't work that way. 350 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.839 So well, let's get out on this, you know the way. 351 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.079 You know, we're sort of known now that Trump's insults 352 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.759 often have an expiration date or can be turned around quickly. 353 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.720 It's entirely possible that by the time this episode goes 354 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.519 live they will have kissed and made up. 355 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:22.640 Stranger things have happened. 356 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.559 The other one is is people think that there's people 357 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.440 there's some conspiracy theorist saying this is all fake news. 358 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.960 It's professional wrestling, which they both attend, and this is 359 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.480 to distract the Median Democrats from something. And in fact, 360 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.119 some Democratic group did call for now for releasing the 361 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.839 Epstein list, which I think is pretty darn funny. Anyway, 362 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:44.880 do you have any predictions on how this is going 363 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:46.480 to unfold? Is it just going to go away in 364 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:47.960 a few days or are they going to kiss and 365 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:48.319 make up? 366 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:48.960 What do you think? 367 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:50.880 Well, I think one of those two things. I certainly 368 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:53.680 don't think that it's going to have catastrophic consequences for 369 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:55.720 the Republic. I've seen some people say this is it 370 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.440 for the right, this is it for America. No, I 371 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.759 don't think so. I think we'll get about it in 372 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.519 six months. I don't think the space program is going 373 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.759 to be set back by it. Donald Trump is already 374 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:10.720 sounding somewhat consideratorly, orbeit from a condescending position where he says, well, 375 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.160 that guy's crazy. I don't want to talk to him, 376 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.079 but I hope he gets the help he needs. And 377 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.359 the mask started to back off yesterday. I don't know 378 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.599 if you saw this. There was some user with seventeen 379 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:24.240 followers who said, you know, like a mother to the 380 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.440 two of them on Twitter, come now, this is silly. 381 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:28.880 I don't like this, we don't need this, and Musk respond, 382 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.519 all right, fine, I won't cancel the space program. So 383 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.880 some guy on Twitter with seventeen followers may have saved 384 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.680 the future of the United States' presence in space. I 385 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.839 don't think that ultimately this is going to cause big 386 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.359 problems for America. I suspect they'll either make up or 387 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.119 or just go away. But look, they are both very rich, 388 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.119 successful men with egos. They don't agree on everything, and 389 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.759 this was inevitable as a result. So those of us, 390 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.119 which was everyone who said I can see what it's 391 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.000 going to happen, shouldn't be shocked that has finally come 392 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:03.559 to fruition. 393 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:04.599 Right. 394 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.720 Well, I think this kind of the intensity of this 395 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.240 is something that could only happen in a social media age. 396 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:11.240 I think, I don't know. 397 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:12.359 Agreed. 398 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:13.880 Well. 399 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:18.400 Meanwhile, while while we were all distracted by this great circus, 400 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.559 a couple of interesting things happened this week on the 401 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:25.119