Speaker 1: This is Timothy Albreno.
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Trace Matt.
Speaker 1: My name is La mar Hilly. This is doctor judperg
This is Ryan Peterson.
Speaker 3: If you want to know your Bible, you have to dig,
and you're in the right place.
Speaker 2: This is the Dig Bible Podcast.
Speaker 4: Hey, what's going on on my local guys and gals
and long distance pals.
Speaker 2: We're back.
Speaker 5: We're back without being all right, we're missing him.
Speaker 2: We always miss Ben when he's not here.
Speaker 5: You gotta do it again. You gotta do the Ben voice.
Speaker 1: We're back.
Speaker 2: That's I can't get as deep as Ben.
Speaker 5: Being in that neighborhood. Friendly sasquash.
Speaker 2: He's here in heart right here.
Speaker 4: Well, today, guys, we got another banging episode for you guys.
And uh it's a it's a returning guest. If you
guys remember what it was. It two twenty two we
had a guy named Rick Hasty and we had to
talk on biblical worldview. Well, we have Rick back, and
we actually have his daughter Waverley with us, and they
actually have written a book together, and we wanted to
have them on and talk about this book because we
think that it's not only a great story, it's got
a great message and it's relevant to the times that
we're in today. So I'd just like to introduce to
the show Rick and Waverley. So, guys, just for our
new listeners that's not familiar with you, just kind of
introduce yourself, likes, dislikes.
Speaker 5: Background, just give us a feel for who you guys are.
Speaker 6: I'm all the first. I'm Weaverly Cowards. I live in
the North Georgia Mountains, about forty five minutes from Atlanta.
I've been married nine and a half years. We have
three amazing children run one seven year old son, a
four year old.
Speaker 7: Daughter, and a one year old daughters just.
Speaker 6: Turned one, and by trade, I'm a marriage and family therapist,
but taking some extended time off to mother and to
homeschool and raise our children. So that also allows me
to edit some books on the side and do podcasts.
So couldn't couldn't do it without my husband, that's for sure.
So shout out to shout out to him.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm the same guy that was hanging out with
you a year or so ago. Justin and Steve and
I know we've missed Ben, so we'll give a shout
out to Ben there too. But in any case, I
live in Charlotte part of the time and then live
in Virginia up in the Tri Cities area near Justin
and Steve, so we got to know each other a
little bit. I've been doing management consulting for many, many years,
and yet in the midst of all of that, somehow
or another, God gave me a heart many years ago
to get focused on apologetics and what it was like
to defend our faith, not in academic settings so much
as in the everyday life settings where people are struggling,
they've got doubts, and I would say it's just as
important for believers to keep questioning truth and getting it right.
It's okay to question truth. And so as I learned
that many years ago, I just recognized that I wanted
to know more and more about who God is and
not be fooled by the things that people say is
but rather actually does not know about him either, but knowing.
So that's been my journey over the years.
Speaker 4: Well with the book, the titles and search you for
Proof and Faith. So with this book, what does this
give us? A breakdown the premise of the book, what
is it about and how it came about?
Speaker 6: Well, I attended for undergrad, I attended the University of
North Carolina Chapel Hill, and I took a New Testament
class my sophomore year with doctor bart Erman is his name.
And after growing up in a Christian home, attending church
my whole life, I did not expect silly me maybe,
but I did not expect to take a New Testament
class from a professor who did not believe.
Speaker 7: It to be true, like at all.
Speaker 6: And so I had, you know, several classes, and I
would call my dad and begin to have these conversations
about what he was talking about, the pushback he was giving,
some quote unquote errors he was presenting, and my dad
would flesh it out with me. We would kind of
wrestle with these questions that came up, and I would
get off the phone and talk it out with some
of my peers because I did have believing peers.
Speaker 7: Actually, I took.
Speaker 6: The class with a couple of fellow young life leaders,
and so I was able to kind of flesh it
out with peers myself who knew and believed the Gospel
to be true. And so it was just the first
time I had really been presented with someone who was
very smart, very intelligent, and yet. I mean, he was
teaching Testament class and did not believe the New Testament
to be true. So that was kind of a sound
to me and an interruption to my smooth sailing faith,
if you will.
Speaker 7: So it was it was quite an experience. So and
I'll let my dods share some of his side of
that too.
Speaker 1: Sort of along those same timeframes. My youngest son, who
is now a senior in high school or almost a
senior in high school, when kind of as first started,
I realized that the time was coming to an end
with him, and so I really wanted to try to
encourage him to be doing Bible study regularly. And and
so I approached him and a couple of his buddies
and said, hey, what would you guys. Would you guys
like to do a Bible study? And they said, let
us think about it. And they thought about it and
came back and said, nah, you know, we're we're we
go to church. One of them actually didn't, but but
we go to church, and you know, we go to
Young Life and that we kind of think we kind
of get enough Bible that way. And so I had
a little bit of a crazy idea, and so I
suggested to them, well, well, what if we did a
Bible study and we didn't use the Bible? And they,
as you can imagine, looked at me like I deserved,
like I had a couple of nuts loose, and uh said,
and but yeah. They came back and said, well, if
we could do a Bible study without the Bible, we're
in and what would that look like? And so what
I suggested to them was, I'll tell you what you
come up with a question, and we'll answer that question
next week, and we won't use the Bible. So we
spend a year, in almost a year and a half
with a group of kids who grew to about probably
a total of ten twelve fifteen kids that would rotate
and be you know, eight or ten each Friday morning
at six thirty am, and they would ask a question,
you know, like is God good because I see a
whole lot of evil in the world, and a whole
variety of questions around dating, or around homosexuality, or around
all the issues that were important to them. And so
each each week they would ask a question one week,
and then the next week I would come in with
some answers or some books or various things come in
with a lot of questions for them too, and so
pretty much we'd spend most of the time just looking
at what science or philosophy or life experience or whatever
would tell you an answer to those questions. And then
I'd always say, would you be interested in hearing what
the Bible has to say? And what was very obvious
to them, and frankly first to me, was how the
Bible is a shortcut. If you want to know the
real answer, you can get it pretty quickly through the scriptures.
But you don't have to have the scriptures because the truth,
that is God's made evident back to Romans one nineteen,
all around us will give you answers to every one
of those same questions. You don't have to have a Bible.
And as most of us know, for eons there was
no Bible, but God was showing himself every single day.
So fast forward to the next year, Waverley and I
started putting this material together and decided that there was
a story to tell without using all the academic approaches.
And we didn't think that high schoolers would actually read
much of an academic book, but they might read a
good story. So that's how we kind of settled on
that format.
Speaker 2: That is that is awesome. So the way I look
at this is we all go through life.
Speaker 3: We're all going to make decisions that are either good, bad,
and different at times.
Speaker 2: But when we're at that cusp where we are.
Speaker 3: Going through that maybe late middle school, high school, into
early college, like you're talking about Waverley, is we see
that we're forming our identity of who we are at
that time, are you know? And at my for me personally,
I didn't want anything to do with God at that
point in my life. I had absolutely nothing, and it
took a kind of amazing thing for me to kind
of jump back and to.
Speaker 2: Want God in my life. But not everybody is so lucky.
Speaker 3: We have to have people around us that are helping
us form those opinions and bringing us and keeping that
identity to our life because you have a choice. You
can either identify with Christ or you can identify with
the world. And that's the time when most people make
those biggest decisions and make some of the biggest mistakes
that all through their life. So you guys that are
with what you're saying, you're attacking right at the right
And I say attacking, you know what I mean? But
you're attacking right at the right level that is so
underserved in our world today because of the worldly views
and the things that they're impressed with around Social media
is the devil. I mean, we try to use it
for good, but it is after our kids. It is
after our kids, and that's it's just awesome that you
guys found that whole and made that niche for those kids.
I just think that's a powerful way, and you're hitting
the right demographic.
Speaker 4: Because I mean, I had hunch that this was based
off of a true account of some sort because it
just sounded too personal. And I personally read this and
I really enjoyed this, and I even told them, you know,
pre roll that after I had finished it, I'd give
it to my teenage daughter to read because I just
knew that she would really enjoy it and there was
lots of stuff in there that would identify with her
and prepare her and arm her with truth and so.
But yeah, but as I was reading that, I was
just like, well, either this is somebody you know, Rick
or Waverley knows a grandchild, you know, or something, because
it was just it was very personal, very relatable, you know,
it seemed very real.
Speaker 7: Well, it is very real.
Speaker 6: I think both of our experiences are weaved in there,
but not just my dad's and mine.
Speaker 7: I think that.
Speaker 6: The experience the main character goes through Harper. She is
a similar character to many many men and women who
have grown up with Christian parents, who attend church but
have never really wrestled with their faith, like what does
it mean to believe that God is good? Because they've
maybe never had any tragedy happen to them, They've kind
of maybe stayed in a small town bubble, or maybe
not even a small town, but they have attended a
private school their whole life, or they have had the
same group of friends their whole life. And so you're
really when you get to college, for many people, that's
the first time you're experiencing life on your own. And
so with that comes a wrestling of who am I
apart from my family, apart from my hometown, apart from
my group of friends I grew up with. And so
that can be a time where you're a sponge.
Speaker 7: You're kind of.
Speaker 6: Absorbing the thoughts and ideals and philosophies of your peers,
your new peers, or your professors, or even your youth
group leaders or you know, whatever it is. You're involved
in political groups, sororities or fraternities, your club, soccer team,
whatever you're involved in.
Speaker 7: In college, you're absorbing kind of.
Speaker 6: These new experiences and so how does that influence you?
And if you're not really if you don't really have
a good foundation, your faith can really take some hits,
and especially if you don't have.
Speaker 7: People.
Speaker 6: I mean, I feel very blessed that I had my dad,
but a lot of people don't have some that they
can really go to and say, ooh, I'm really having
this thought. I mean, somebody came to me with some
really good questions and I don't know the answers, and I.
Speaker 7: Thought I would.
Speaker 6: I thought I knew that God was good, but they
had a really really good argument for that and.
Speaker 7: I had nothing to say.
Speaker 6: So that was really kind of our heart in it
was to be able to really flesh out these conversations.
Maybe for maybe for college kids, but I think it's
the earlier in middle school, early high school, so you
have the time to really have those good conversations with
your with your students or with your children, I think
is ideal.
Speaker 7: So yeah, it's I think it's really cool, and you
look at that the same way.
Speaker 2: I kind of hit it a little bit already.
Speaker 3: But a lot of time we focus so much on
who can we reach out there with the gospel, and
that's a really important thing. The Great Commission's amazing, But
if you look at the majority of the New Testament,
it's not about reaching out to everybody.
Speaker 2: It's about Paul's write letter and letter and letter.
Speaker 3: Again, trying to strengthen the people that are already in
the church. We're not the church itself continues to need
to be fed. Once you're in the church, once you're
a believer in Christ, you still need to be fed
every day. You still need that to grow. You still
need the Christian the Christian inner circle that helps keep
you on the right path if you stray away from that.
And you were talking about that the same thing with
I think about it. My wife always says us, she
says inner circle, outer circle. Right, we have friends that
are not Christian, or that maybe live a different lifestyle
or do different things that maybe we don't agree with,
but that's not our inner circle. Our inner circle is
our believers are are people that keep us on the
right track. We still want to witness all those other people,
but that's our outer circle. We're not letting them influence us,
you know what I mean. And I think that's it's
just really important that we strengthen the believers in the church,
especially the younger generation that's dealing with things that me
and Justin didn't even have to deal with, or you, Waverley,
because you're even younger than both of us.
Speaker 2: I think it's true.
Speaker 6: I don't know how old you I you Sar, but
I feel pretty old sometimes.
Speaker 7: But yeah, I think if you it's.
Speaker 6: Not I think if your inner circle is asking the questions,
because you can have an inner circle of people who
believe the same things that you do, but we all
have different life experiences, right, so we are coming into
the conversations whatever those conversations look like as far as
you know, what we believe, like flashing that out and
we all kind of have this background, this lived experience
that influence and says that, and so it's it's really
good if you if you have those inner circles of
friends that you really kind of pressed into each other,
you know, don't just be an echo chamber, but really
say you know, we're talking about Oh yes, God.
Speaker 7: Is so good.
Speaker 6: You know, why do we believe that God is so good?
You know what, what in our lives has pushed up
against that and we're able to push back, you know,
with the truth, because I think that is very real.
When you have tragedy in your life, when you somebody
doesn't meet your expectations, lets you down, when you have
loss of relationship or you know, whatever that might look like.
You your your faith, no matter how how strong you
thought it was when life was going really great, you
can begin to question no matter how long you've known
the Lord. I became a believer when I was young.
I think I was maybe five or six, and so
there wasn't much time of six, There wasn't There wasn't
much time I didn't have a relationship with Jesus. But
I would be lying if I didn't say I didn't
come up against some really big obstacles to believing God
was good in my college and my young adult even
now in my thirties, so you know, searching for proof
and faith. You know, at the end of the book,
for those who read it, you know, we wanted to
end with it's it's going to be a lifelong journey.
It is not about finding the answers and that being it.
You say, I got the answer, I'm good.
Speaker 7: You know. I think.
Speaker 6: Throughout our lives, a personal relationship with Jesus means that
we are going to be asking questions and wrestling with
our faith, because that's living and breathing faith. He doesn't
want us to be these robots that just say, okay,
we're believers and that's that. He wants us to be
engaged with the world and what's going on around us
and always strengthening our faith. So we hope people read
the story and hope they get to the end of it.
And even if they are believers, even if they none
of these answers are surprising to them, none of none
of the content of the book is surprising to them.
We hope that they are at least encouraged that it's
we hope that they grow in their faith their whole lives.
Speaker 4: So, and what I found impressive was it was, you know,
the hero's journey. I mean when I read that, because
it's like you start off in your comfort zone. You know,
you're in your little you know, in her instance of
the story, she's in her little small town church, group
of friends, and family, and she you know, takes the
calling and goes off to college and her faith you know,
is challenged, and she actually starts to doubt and ask
the questions. And where she had been in her comfortable
bubble and not had nobody press on her, she didn't
have the answers and was able to you know, really
defend her faith or really or her faith had never
really been under attack. And then you have that in
these hero journey stories. But then usually following right after
that is where what they call the supernatural aid comes,
you know, the calling comes, you accept the calling, then
there's some super natural aid. In this story, she gets
a familiar face and a friend that gives her some
aid and strengthens her and calls her back, you know,
to to her Christian roots. And but with this story,
could you just you know, touch on how how it's
relevant and how applicable in young people's lives, and how
the importance of your inner circle as we talked about,
but also stepping out of your comfort zone and having
difficult questions. And was it that scripture you always mentioned, Steve,
was it verse Peter three point fifteen?
Speaker 3: Always be able to give a reason for the hope
that you have, but do so with generalness and respect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the audience for the book is important,
and so we wrote this as you can already tell
for high schoolers, by the way, I think that age
has maybe moved down into middle school today. I think
certainly eighth and ninth graders are confronted with all of
these challenges to their faith. And so in that context,
whether middle school, high school age, they're going to be
exposed to a lot of people. They may have been
living in their bubble, might have been surrounded by their
inner circle for lots of years, but they're soon going
to be outside of that bubble. And so the question
is are you just going to as a parent, are
you just going to kind of throw them out there
hoping that they make it, or are you going to
prepare them for the day in which they're going to
bar Erman, by the way, is one of the most
widely read, most called upon atheist in the world today.
That was who Waverley had as a sophomore in college
as her quote unquote New Testament professor. So fear warning here,
Christian parents that when you said your kid off to college,
then we can talk about both secular and NOx and
parochial schools. Here on both they're going to be confronted
with questions about their faith, maybe with very radical answers
that will take them way way far. So my question
to parents is are you willing to take the time
to allow your kids to ask the questions and then
gently guide them to the right answers. And if you don't,
then you're going to be throwing them out to the
faith lists wolves, And as the scriptures teach us to
share the devil, we'll send a pack of wolves out
there to absolutely grab your children's faith as they become
young adults. Especially so in any case, long long answer
there to say that we want to equip both children,
and I would say equip their parents with a door
to step into answering some of the deeper questions about
their faith than about life in general.
Speaker 6: Parents should always be almost the first line of defense.
But I think being intentional with who your children spend
time with, because you have a say they're in your home,
you do have a say about who they're inner circle.
Speaker 7: Have conversations with them about who their inner is, have
conversations about who they trust.
Speaker 6: And maybe it's not you that they turn to. But
do they have a wise small group leader, do they
have a wise teacher? If they go to Christian school,
do they have an older peer? Maybe in middle school
there's a you know, a middle school high school peer
type relationship.
Speaker 7: Program.
Speaker 6: It's the inner circle of your child is extraordinarily important.
Pray for that, pray when they're for parents who are
best starting out.
Speaker 7: I mean, I have a seven.
Speaker 6: Year old to four year old and one year old.
I mean, I'm I'm praying for their peers. I'm praying
for their current friendships, future friendships, even their peers parents,
that the households that they grow up in and their
experiences are they're surrounded by wisdom and knowledge of the truth.
So it's it's incredibly important my opinion.
Speaker 7: And it can be a lifelong set up.
Speaker 6: You know, who your child's friends with their middle school
school years.
Speaker 7: Might be a friend.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I don't know if I answer question.
Speaker 3: Steve, Yeah, oh I agree one hundred percent. You talk
about that like who do you go to you know
when you're having a bad day, you know what I mean,
when we're.
Speaker 2: There kids, our kids come to us, Our kids come.
Speaker 3: And they they you know, will say, oh, this kid
was mean to me, or this happened at school or whatever.
As they get a little bit older, they go to
their friends. But is that friend, that person that you're
relying on. Is that someone who's going to turn you
towards the world or are they going to turn you
back to Christ?
Speaker 2: So we have to always know.
Speaker 3: And that's for me like this podcast, just being part
of this has been such a blessing because I can
talk to Justin about this anytime I want. I can
talk to Ben anytime I want. I have Christian friends
that ground me, and that all this has done is
grow my faith because even as an adult, I mean,
I'm you know, I'm only nineteen, but even as an
adult like I still need my faith to be strengthened
by the people around me. There are times, even in
my adult life, without my wife being her what she
is with her faith, that I would have fallen away
because something was hard or something hit me and like
you said, the struggles that we go through. If it
wasn't for her, I would have fallen away. But because
I had a wife with a phenomenal Christian upbringing and
foundation faith, and that without her I might not be
sitting here.
Speaker 2: So you're right.
Speaker 3: It's a lifelong process. It doesn't stop. So it is important.
It isn't all those choices we make, who we marry,
you know, go back, who your friends are. All those
things make a big difference in how your faith is
going to grow over the years. But it does start,
or like you said, Rick, it's starting younger and younger
and younger. Now, I mean, it's the stuff that's happening
when they have they're putting litter boxes and bathrooms at schools.
Speaker 2: I can't, I just I don't even know what to say.
It's just crazy to me.
Speaker 3: So you're right, you guys, it's powerful, but you're going
to have to write another one that speaks to like
middle schoolers now, so you're gonna have to go after that.
Speaker 1: Great news is I think for kids and parents, and
then I would take even college students, particularly those that
might not have been confronted with some of these issues.
Is that what we've tried to do in our book
is not just tell a story, but also provide resources.
So there's nine chapters in the book and they cover
nine different myths that our kids and we are being
sold every day by the media around us. By by frankly,
just everyday conversations that accept things like evolution or accept
things like there is no God or et cetera, and
especially today, try to push the lbgt Q agenda. Don't
be fooled. I mean, we're being bombarded every single day,
so are there answers. So while our story addresses those myths,
at the same time, at the end of every chapter,
we we give a plethora of resources for people to
dig deeper. And I would say, you know, for us,
it certainly is a is a goal of ours that
you might give your high school or a book that
maybe they read, maybe they don't read, but they keep
so that as those questions arise, they maybe go to
a chapter to financiers, or maybe go to the end
of the chapter and find a long list of books, podcasts, websites,
all of which would lead them YouTube videos, all of
which would lead them to find out more and find
out truthful answers, not just hypotheses that are being presented
as fact.
Speaker 3: I love that you say hypotheses because I can't stand
when they say the theory of evolution, because the theory means
that you've been able to replicate it to some degree
and yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, the dig gets a mentioned. You bet it does.
Speaker 5: That's what I was about to say. I didn't know
if it will be crass to.
Speaker 4: Take a victory lab and I was like, yes, thank you, Rick,
we are now publicized. Three rednecks in the garage are
publicized now.
Speaker 1: Well, as I was saying, you've been publicized by a
lot more than me. I know, but your long list
of podcasts participants have been so impressive over the last
couple of years. You guys have done an amazing job.
So how could we leave you out?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Well that was all God there.
Speaker 4: We just asked, and God put it on their heart
for them to say yes, so we'll show up and talk.
But I had a two part question for you. One
Waverley with you put in that position, and I know
Rick well enough to know that you were in a
Christian household and you were, you know, painting with a
broad brush, but you were well equipped. But you being
put in that position that you were in, how did
that make you feel? Did you ever have any moments
where you may have doubted your faith or felt just
under attack? I mean, how did you feel being put
in that position? And then when you're done, Rick, I
think it's important too to speak on the basis of apologetics,
because the friend in this story done such a good job.
If she would have handled this situation differently, she wouldn't
have been able to change her friend's mind. And I
know those classes that we did you talked about you know, basically,
apologetics is not the art of arguing and winning arguments.
Speaker 5: It's about relationship.
Speaker 4: So for the people that are listening and they have
that friend that is either not a non believer or
question their faith, maybe you could just touch on that
a little bit to equip those people to handle those situations.
Speaker 5: I think that would be really important.
Speaker 7: I would be.
Speaker 6: Remiss to not acknowledge that my college years I was
not always as strong in my faith as I was
growing up. I think some of that is a very
normal thing. If I could, I could encourage every parent developmentally,
every child is going to go through a season.
Speaker 7: Maybe that's a couple months, maybe that's.
Speaker 6: A couple of years where your child is going to
be trying to figure out who.
Speaker 7: They are in the world and what that looks like,
and they're going to be trying on all.
Speaker 6: Sorts of identities, and that may be really peoful and
really difficult to watch. It may be, it may be
just a lip. But for me, I think even though
my faith was not as strong, I had such a good,
solid foundation of truth. Parents who prayed for me, prayed
with me, who asked hard questions, who were not afraid
of confrontation. When I was living at high school and
kind of not living out of my faith, the world
influence who I was, but they didn't shy away from
asking those hard questions, and I would just encourage like
that had such a huge influence when that happened in
high school.
Speaker 7: That had such a huge influence on me.
Speaker 6: In college because they were still asking hard questions, but
I wasn't under their roof, and so Gosh, the Lord
never let go of me. I never praise Jesus. I
don't think there was a single day in which I
did not believe in the truth of Scripture. I did
not believe that God wasn't real. I did not believe that,
you know, that God didn't create the earth, or.
Speaker 7: You know, whatever questions. I was kind of hit with.
Speaker 6: Praise Jesus that I always now did my life look
exactly like I was living out of faith and truth?
Speaker 7: No, because I just had such a good.
Speaker 6: Foundation that I know in my heart I never walked
away from the Gospel. So if that makes sense, you
have to acknowledge where there are seasons in which your
faith is not as strong. But again, I just had
a really good childhood, a really great adolescence, a really
great beginning of my teen years, parents that were very
involved in my life. I had amazing small group leaders
starting from middle school years of women who loved me,
who spoke truth to me. My parents attended a church
where the gospel was preached and preached clearly, So I
hope I answered what you were kind of getting after.
But I think it's important as faith, And now that
I'm a parent, I hope that when I get to
the teenage years that I also allow my child to wrestle.
But the wrestling is really important because then at the
end of it, their faith really becomes their own.
Speaker 7: You know, you're.
Speaker 6: Investing in your child, you're praying for your child, you're
speaking truth. We're doing Catechism with my seven year old,
memorizing Catechism.
Speaker 7: You're trying to.
Speaker 6: Input as much gospel truth into their life as you
possibly can. But it's not going to be probably until
his teenage years and maybe your early adulthood in which
he solidifies that for himself. And I'm going to have why,
I have nothing to do with it anyway, It's all
It's all Christ, whether and when those seats get planted
and sprout and grow.
Speaker 7: But I don't want my faith to be his faith.
I want his faith to be his own.
Speaker 6: I want it tend to be rock solid, and no
Christ to know the truth of the Gospel, because he
believes it to be true, not because I told him
it was. So, Yeah, I just did an encouragement for parents,
and just out of my own story, those seasons of
perhaps your child going off there, it can produce really
great fruit.
Speaker 1: So we know anybody that's got more than one child
is that they're not all alike. And so not all
of my kids were quite as passionate around their faith
as Waverley was, I would say, pretty much through her
college years too. Not suggesting she was perfect, but I
am suggesting that you know, you've got to deal with
your children as they are who they are, and so
as you know justin we wrote the original story back
fifteen years ago, and then we rewrote it more recently
and kind of updated it with a few things, including
a chapter on the OLGBGQ myths about Christianity. And so
I think what we're more sensitive to today, although this
was the original story, is it defending your faith is
to others who would who would mock us? Is not
about arguments. It's about demonstrating truth first and foremost with
our own demonstration of love. And so the story that
we tell here is not about a person who gets
offended because her former friend is now openly questioning our faith,
but rather coming alongside of them. And I think that's
just as true even with a stranger and justin you
remember when we were talking about defending our faith together
a few years ago, that, you know, we just really
emphasized that, as as Steve is quoting in first Peter three,
that our goal is to defend our faith with gentleness
and reverence, not within your face arguments. Because I believe
when we do attempt to come alongside of people and
demonstrate love, that we're really just kind of planting seed
into fertile soil so that the Holy Spirit might work.
And so we hope that our character in this story
is kind of setting an example of how to come
alongside someone who's questioning their faith, and then work through
a process with them, find out what really matters to them,
find out where they discovered these what they think is true,
which is more often than not really truly are just
fi is just fiction. And so you know, we'd be
remiss though to not just mention the people that have
that are a part of our bibliographies here. But a
big inspiration for us even to write the book was
Norm Geisler. And anybody who knows anything about apologetics knows
that Norm Geiser's is one of the foremost writers more
than one hundred books on various topics around philosophy and
logic and apologetics. Together with one of his his key disciples,
Frank Turiku, today is probably one of the best known
speakers debaters around apologetics. And then you know, we borrored
from all kinds of people, not just quoting him in
the book, but then having their materials in the bibliographies,
but people like Josh McDowell and even more recently his
son today Sean McDowell, more more modern names like Abigail
Shreer and Rebecca mcgoflin. These are people who've done tremendous
work to help people formulate their ideas well. And yet
every one of them, I think that we name also
have a humility about them that they recognize this isn't
just about winning an argument. However, we do have the
upper hand on the arguments. We reserve the God of truth,
the God who created all things and made them in
order that they might bring him glory and demonstrate who
he is. And so I'd say, in the midst of this,
probably the greatest message to start with for me is
the most common theme that I hear oftentimes, Well, if
God would just show himself, Well, he's been doing that
from the beginning of time, and if we're just open
to look, we absolutely will see him.
Speaker 4: And if you're doing your job right, they'll see him
through you, you know. And that's one thing that I
just loved about that because I see it all the time,
and then I've been guilty of it myself. Somebody that's
straight from their faith or they're not a believer, to
just disassociate, you know, or argue with them. When they
argue back, you get angry and split, you know. I
like how doctor Phil always said, you know, you can
be right or you can be happy, but you can't
have both. So you've got to ask yourself, yo, what's
more important you being right and being a right fighter,
or loving your neighbors you love yourself and meeting them
where they're at and with gentle and kindness and asking
the right questions. Because in that story, had been very
easy for this hometown girl to just see her apost state,
you know, sister, and just shed her and distance her
and talk about her to her mama on the phone
later that night, you know, but she did.
Speaker 3: How do we bring people closer to Christ if we
just argue with them, if they see us and we
come from a place of condemnation or judgment, and we're
telling them what you're evil, what you're doing is wrong,
you're doing these things.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, we aren't the ones that judge.
Speaker 3: There is but one judge, and there is one judgment,
and it's at that white throne of judgment that's going
to happen at the end of time. In the meantime
we are called upon when Jesus, when Jesus was asked
by the lawyer, which is the greatest of the commandments,
he said, love the Lord your God with all your heart,
soul of mind, and love your neighbor as yourself, and
then everything else falls into place. It doesn't matter your neighbor,
is everybody love everybody. I don't care what their lifestyle is.
I don't care what their their ideas are. If I
come at somebody and and treat them like they are
a black sheep, guess what, that's gonna only drive them
further away from God.
Speaker 2: I need to show them love.
Speaker 3: I need to show them compassion and try to show
them Christ through my actions.
Speaker 2: And that's what we're all called to do.
Speaker 7: I do think we are living in a world.
Speaker 6: Where that love is The definition is very tricky, and
our definition of love as believers is not quite what
the world says is love. And I think, you know,
going back to what you're saying to have an answer
is really important, not in order to argue.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 7: Because it's really important to be.
Speaker 6: Clear about what the Gospel says and not to allow
the world to kind of muddy it down, like sometimes
to get thrown out. You know, Jesus just love to people,
and well, yeah he did. He really loved them. He
loved them enough to speak the truth to them. He
he loved them enough two to call them out of
sin and call them to himself and to redeem them.
He loved them enough to die on the cross for
their sins. And so I think it's really important these
days to have clear definitions about what loving people.
Speaker 7: Looks like.
Speaker 6: And and and to the Christian who goes off like
our heroine, so to speak, the main character in our story.
You know, she she goes off and she's trying to
figure it out, you know, the the girl who's older
than her, Maya who's kind of speaking into her. She's
she doesn't ty away from from the truth. She she
calls her friend to wrestle, to engage, and she doesn't say, oh,
you're just you know, you want to explore these new
age ideas.
Speaker 7: You go right ahead. I'll just like love you.
Speaker 6: You know, right on through that. You know, she really
gently invites her into kind of calling her back to
her faith.
Speaker 5: Head. I'll pray for you, yeah.
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 6: You know, I just accept you exactly how you are,
which you know, in some ways she does. She accepts
where she is, but she she doesn't kind.
Speaker 7: Of let her stay there, you know, she gives her some.
Speaker 6: Push back and helps her think things through all the way.
Speaker 3: So that's that gentleness and respect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I got a question for you, guys.
You're I'm just curious about this. I'm just thinking out
loud with you for a minute. But I think y'all
will have a perspective on it, which is it is
Satan strategic And by that what I mean is, you know,
we wrote this book fifteen years ago and now we
just rewrote it, and so in between a lot has happened.
You know, our world has shifted at a rapid pace.
And I would say that that Christianity is under siege
in America today, very very differently, not that satan one
that work twenty five fifty one hundred years two hundred
years ago, but it seems different to me. And I'm
just wondering, do you think Satan has changed his tactics?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 5: One, per He's destroying us from the inside. Now.
Speaker 4: Now you got churches bringing you know, cross dressers and
and things into the quote unquote church and reading to
children and talking about love there. Even he's even taking
with just saying a new trick, it's old trick. He
was doing it back in Genesis, taking the word of God,
manipulating it to make Jacob and some of these other
characters David to seem like they were homosexuals and twisting
the word of God. But it's he's definitely changing everything
and going into and infiltrating the church and trying to
destroy it from the inside.
Speaker 3: In my opinion, I don't I agree and disagree at
the same time.
Speaker 2: But that's me and Justin like to do that a lot.
I'll say that that we see.
Speaker 3: Things I think a little bit differently, but I don't
see today is any different than the way role was
how Rome fell apart. Right, it turns everything turns into
debauchery and you know, do what you want to do,
and it was intermarrying and you're you're losing your culture
and everything starts going a different direction. We start seeing
sin always being the center point of any culture that's
about to crumble, and we're seeing Satan and we Satan
himself kind of. So for example, let's say this way,
look at Jesus when he's tempted in the desert, right,
or he's tempted first, you know, it takes him on
top of the temple. You know, he goes up and says,
you know, throw yourself down, Angels will catch you, or
go to the desert or the I'm sorry, the high mountain.
He says, if you bow down, I'll give you all
the kingdoms you can see. But at the very end
of that, what is what does he say? What does
it say in scripture? It says, Satan departed until an
opportune time. Guess what, As our society is degrading, the
time never seems more opportune than right now. Things are
falling apart, it says, he walks around like a prowling
lion looking for someone to devour.
Speaker 2: That is happening right now.
Speaker 3: That is all these little things that we're seeing come
into our society and slowly disintegrate people's faith from the inside.
Speaker 2: And this is not just the non.
Speaker 3: Christian population, this is from within the church. Like justin saying,
this is happening all around us, and we're seeing the
degradation of what we call the Christian Church and the idea.
The word Christian doesn't mean what we like to think
it means sometimes because how many people out there call
them Christians but never go to church. They call themselves
that or not even that they go to church, but
they don't have that faith. If you look at the
way I look at this is. I always like to say,
Paul had it the best way. I'm a big fan
of Paul. He's top three guy that I'll look up
when I get to heaven. But Paul is the best way.
He said it when he's sitting there talking to it
his Festus and then King Agrippa, right, he talks about
I am a follower of the way Jesus said on
the Way the truth in the life.
Speaker 2: Paul says, I'm a follower of the way.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what we're what we're getting into
to now is all these other non salvation issues and
all these other things that start separating the church. It's
pulling us apart, it's picking apart the church because we're
focusing too much on these non salvation issues. Any great
military commander, what do they do, They divide and conquer.
The church is more divided now than it's ever been.
And we're falling, and we're falling apart, and we're seeing
sex of what we would call the Christian Church that
I think have totally lost it. And we keep going
down that path, things are only going to get worse.
And then that that idea of what is where is
your salvation.
Speaker 2: Are you saved?
Speaker 5: Is this? Are you baptized?
Speaker 2: It's it's well, i've not.
Speaker 3: I've not been allowed to be parts of members of
certain churches I've been in because I wasn't baptized their way.
Speaker 2: Is that a salvation issued? No, it's not. If I'm
not baptized the way that you're bad. That's not what
it says in the Bible.
Speaker 3: It's not by any work that I can do right,
it's by it's by grace alone. It's by my faith
in Jesus. It's not how I do something. It's not
some ritual I go do. And that's where the church
itself is really struggling. And the separation in the church
is where I truly see Satan really working on us.
And uh, I'm sorry, I'll digress. I get too fired.
We we really I need to. And this is the
thing is I believe that we need to separate our
non salvation issues in the church. We need to set
those asides. It's okay for us to not agree. Me
and Justin definitely don't agree on a lot of things.
Speaker 2: We don't. But guess what, I love that guy and
I know he's going to Heaven, right. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: I can love him and not agree with him, and
we don't agree on a lot of things.
Speaker 2: But the ultimately the thing is is what we.
Speaker 3: Talk about that what does keep the main thing the
main thing, and that's your salvation, that's your belief in Jesus,
that's your fact that He died for you.
Speaker 2: Past that these other issues.
Speaker 3: Listen, I love diving into scripture. I think you know that,
or I'll say digging. But we go through all this
stuff and that's really what our podcast is all about,
is we're taking the next step. We're diving in, taking
it to the next level. We're trying to find things
and Justin pushes me. I mean that guy, he's a
brain and a half and he pushes me to try
to learn more and be better and really look into this,
into God's word and try to interpret these things.
Speaker 5: But in the end, iron sharpened and iron definitely.
Speaker 3: But if I sit there and at the end of
the day, I misinterpreted something in Revelations, I didn't say
it right, and somebody else in church kint it right,
does it mean we're going to a different place. No,
it's that separation, that separation that we are worried so
much about is what's dividing us. It's dividing our church,
and it's what we need to stay away from. We
need to could go back and focus on the main thing.
Speaker 1: Justin I don't know, I might have to ask permission
for this, but can I back it up?
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I went too long.
Speaker 4: It comes on our show and then he steals your line.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I asked permission for you. Steve Well, I
just want to say that, you know, amen, Steve to
to what you're saying there. But uh, in this context
with his book, it is our hope that it would
be a tool for parents not just to buy and
give to their kids, but to start a conversation with them,
start a journey with them as they kind of start
to mature, opening the doors for them to test their faith,
but walking together with them, relationally, open to the conversation,
recognizing that, as Waverley said earlier, their faith is not
going to get their kids by. Their kids' faith is
what's going to get them by, And it's the testing
of our faith that produces endurance. And as James tells
James One tells us, it's it's not all the smooth
sailing that's going to give us endurance or maturity. And
there are no characters in the scriptures that we really
know well that their faith is not severely tested, and
so we should expect much the same, yet at the
same time be prepared for it. So you know, that
is I think I'm steve to you know, go directly
at your your observations there. That's the only way your
kids are going to survive the future, and frankly it's
the only way we're going to survive.
Speaker 8: Well, guys, you got any kind of like a website,
any kind of place where they can find your books,
your work, your stuff you're putting out, Well.
Speaker 1: The best place to go is Amazon, and you can
find searching for Proof and Faith there, And we've just
been thrilled we've been named a couple of their categories,
and we're certainly thankful to get to see that underway
and see the popular there to the book growing and
so go look it up searching for Proof and Faith
Waverley Coward or a Hasty Coward. So that'd be a
great place to go.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 4: What have you guys, got anything you want to say?
In closing before we sign off, I would.
Speaker 6: Just encouraged parents, and you're a teenager who's watching listening
to this podcast, don't be afraid to ask the hard questions.
If you're a parent who's having a teenagers asking questions, don't.
Speaker 7: Be afraid of that. That's that's a really good.
Speaker 6: It's a really good sign if they're asking you in particular,
but if they're asking the Lord, like, what exactly does
it mean for me to have faith in a good.
Speaker 7: God with the world. My school life is so awful,
people are so mean, or I've been bullied on so
what is that?
Speaker 1: What exactly does that mean?
Speaker 6: So I would just and especially in particular with this
revised uh chapter that we've we've added a new chapter
in the revised book with the gender and stuff.
Speaker 7: I would encourage parents.
Speaker 6: Really up to date, really arm yourself with really arm
yourself with wisdom.
Speaker 7: And I would say arm.
Speaker 6: Yourself with peers fellow parents who believe sound doctrine when
it comes to all the questions that's around movement. So
it's good to have an army people praying for your
kids and army people who are speaking truth into theirs,
into your child's peers.
Speaker 2: So good inner circle, YEP.
Speaker 1: And by the way, the chapter with the longest bibliography
and the most resources is the chapter on the l
b G t Q question. So there's lots of good
resources there for parents to go to and video you know,
videos and podcasts and UH and books to refer to. Well,
I would just end by saying, justin that much again,
I really do appreciate the work that you and Steve
Ben have done together with a dig. Really, what we're
about here in this book is digging deeper, not just
allowing things to to fester without addressing them. So in
any case, thanks so much forgivness time with you tonight.
Speaker 7: Yes, thank you, love it.
Speaker 5: You gotta dig deep and get those roots deeper. You
ain't gonna with stay in the storm.
Speaker 7: That's exactly right.
Speaker 2: Pull everybody out there, keep on digging.
Speaker 9: We feel the pot.
Speaker 7: Not thrue.
Speaker 9: Sorry, just to see through. Slow down, heroes and call
me by name true will beft you find me then
the same reals off the face. Well, files, let us
be