Speaker 1: Did I get it.
Speaker 2: From anybody out there? Welcome back to Calling All Beings.
Speaker 2: I'm your host DJ.
Speaker 1: And I'm your co host Boston Bia.
Speaker 3: And this is Calling All Beings TCU True Crime Unsolved
Speaker 3: And guess what now that Karen reads freed? Who were
Speaker 3: you gonna talk about tonight?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we're gonna talk about Sandra Burchmore?
Speaker 2: Sorry about that? Wow? Okay, all right, rough start to
Speaker 2: the night here. All right.
Speaker 3: I do not know where I would like because I
Speaker 3: know Tricia can hear me. If you would please text
Speaker 3: Suzanne Cleveland and find out where she be because she
Speaker 3: is not Yeah, yeah, not good.
Speaker 2: Do y'all have her number?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I can call her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you would go and call her. And I'm
Speaker 3: going to bring on our first guest right here. I
Speaker 3: don't know if I'm supposed to say her last name,
Speaker 3: so I'll just say her first name. I got to
Speaker 3: have the fortune of meeting her at a Andrew Birchmore
Speaker 3: stand out and she's one of the stalwarts, and she's
Speaker 3: now doing her advocacy on her own, as is Suzanne,
Speaker 3: and I've wanted to talk to her for a while
Speaker 3: and get her insights and thoughts about the case, as
Speaker 3: well as Suzanne, who's been on several times. So without
Speaker 3: further a yeah, people put the mans together for Tricia.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, welcome Tricia Mark.
Speaker 4: Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to have you. You have some of
Speaker 2: the coolest I wear in the entire community.
Speaker 4: I hear that from many that say that, thank you.
Speaker 3: That's fair to say. I think that that's fair and inappropriate.
Speaker 3: So well, are you are you making a phone call?
Speaker 4: I did. I called to voicemail.
Speaker 5: Let me she is you know, she is a person
Speaker 5: who is late.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, no like Phil Collins, no reply at all.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll say.
Speaker 1: To people right to but yeah, let's say hi to
Speaker 1: everyone while she.
Speaker 5: I'll send you the link right now. That's the way
Speaker 5: I went. And so she can't get on it. I'm
Speaker 5: gonna send her the link.
Speaker 2: I just sent it to her on herself.
Speaker 4: She just sent it on your text.
Speaker 2: Yeah I did. Yeah, okay, yeah, tell her it's from.
Speaker 4: DJ It's in your text Chuck Yard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there another I can email it.
Speaker 6: I can send it again. How about I'm sending it.
Speaker 4: She needs it in our email?
Speaker 3: Okay, does she have a laptop, because that's where because
Speaker 3: then it could be an X.
Speaker 4: All right, here, she's going to send it to herself.
Speaker 4: She'll be right on.
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome, that's good news. All right. Oh man, that's right.
Speaker 2: This somebody there's that fellow Paul Ryan trying to get
Speaker 2: a hold of me about the about what is this? If?
Speaker 2: What is that? Okay?
Speaker 3: Uh, Paul Ryan trying to get a hold of me
Speaker 3: about Sandra Burch. I'm gonna have to get a hold
Speaker 3: of him.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: In the meantime, Hello, aka the cat Lady, thank you
Speaker 3: for modding.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: This is somebody here. So that's the cat Lady. She
Speaker 2: is one of our mods. And this young lady does
Speaker 2: anybody know her? Yeah? Well of course, yeah.
Speaker 3: There she is your homie, your bestie, except for when
Speaker 3: Joanne is there, right, and Joanna's.
Speaker 1: In the house, So listen, be careful.
Speaker 3: I got two best all right, Yeah, so there's two.
Speaker 3: Just to be clear, there's two besties.
Speaker 2: All right. Uh, where's Joanna? Where's shit?
Speaker 1: I just saw her?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Oh look who's here?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 3: Hell from Deem College, twenty nine years on the board
Speaker 3: of trustees.
Speaker 2: Terry Robbins's here, and I love Terry. She's amazing. So
Speaker 2: much was this lady right here?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 2: Look who's here? All right? All right, hello val hell La.
Speaker 3: This is the official attorney of calling all beings val
Speaker 3: Hella law Or.
Speaker 2: She says it better than I do, but you get it.
Speaker 2: You get it.
Speaker 3: Something to do with Valhalla Vikings and retired Massachusetts lawyer.
Speaker 2: But right now, let us.
Speaker 3: Welcome in your homegirl, right there, your partner in crime
Speaker 3: doing this damn thing.
Speaker 2: Party people put him together for Susan Cleveland. Welcome, Suzanne.
Speaker 6: Hi, guys, Soria. I came in a little hot and late.
Speaker 2: That's okay.
Speaker 6: So we've got ac problems here, so watch me sweat.
Speaker 2: That's a big problem.
Speaker 3: That is a big problem because I heard it's been
Speaker 3: hot in Massachusetts. So everybody welcome. Coco is here. Let
Speaker 3: me just see who else we got to say, Oh,
Speaker 3: lady Zelda Kelly. We oh my goodness, we still got
Speaker 3: to work with her on a day to be on
Speaker 3: her show. So I will message you tonight, Lady Zelda.
Speaker 2: Hey, darling, you are there. You I'm not, So we
Speaker 2: got that out of the way.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: Trisha's like, why is DJ doing this act? Since he
Speaker 3: sounds really silly? And there's Joanna soon now I know. Hi,
Speaker 3: Joanna and Marie the other is that your other bestie?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Joanna and Lulu Bell are my besties.
Speaker 3: There we go and there's money. Yeah, all right, all right,
Speaker 3: so we're in Gene. Hi, welcome, and now let's get
Speaker 3: this damn thing going. So I thought I would you know,
Speaker 3: let's just pretend we just got to.
Speaker 2: The dive bar and we've just ordered. Before your meal
Speaker 2: gets here, you want some as they say in Ingland,
Speaker 2: do you want a stata before your meal gets it?
Speaker 2: You want a stata. So that's what they call appetizers.
Speaker 3: So I thought, as an appetizer, we would start off
Speaker 3: with that and then we're gonna let you guys just
Speaker 3: kind of freewheel however you want to go, which is
Speaker 3: exactly how Suzanne likes it free wheeling. So with that,
Speaker 3: so I ordered these zucchini sticks with the ranch, just
Speaker 3: in case you're wondering the appetizer order.
Speaker 2: So the latest thing is.
Speaker 3: That can you please detail and talk about the fact
Speaker 3: that someone in the FBI or Department of Justice illuminated
Speaker 3: that the fetus that Sandra was pregnant with was not,
Speaker 3: in fact Matt Farwell's baby.
Speaker 6: So you want me to take this one.
Speaker 2: Any any one of you can start, both of you
Speaker 2: get shot.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay. So it's interesting how you say that, you know,
Speaker 6: we were we became aware of that factoid through either
Speaker 6: the do o J or FBI, because it's anonymous source, right,
Speaker 6: But interesting how some of the facts have come our way.
Speaker 6: That one. It's on the surface. I mean, it is
Speaker 6: a bombshell. It is a bombshell. It doesn't at all
Speaker 6: take any thing from the fact that Matthew Farwell did
Speaker 6: it allegedly. I guess we'll see how the case plays out,
Speaker 6: but obviously Matthew Farrewell is still a number one monster,
Speaker 6: and the issue of the baby's DNA not matching with
Speaker 6: Matthew Farrewell is at least in my opinion, it's more
Speaker 6: about the fact that that means there's more there's more
Speaker 6: than one monster here. We kind of know that, but
Speaker 6: to what to what extent? I mean, we're not going
Speaker 6: to find out with relative ease, you know who who
Speaker 6: the possible father of the baby is or was, because
Speaker 6: it was a big deal to get the DNA in
Speaker 6: the first place from Matthew Farrewell. And my understanding is
Speaker 6: that it eliminates his brother too. And we know who
Speaker 6: a couple of the other abusers of Sandra, you know,
Speaker 6: were there's They're still alive, they're still here, and there
Speaker 6: hasn't been any any real accountability or responsibility handed to
Speaker 6: them yet. I say yet, because I'm so hopeful that
Speaker 6: others will be punished. But it doesn't the DNA, I
Speaker 6: don't want to say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change
Speaker 6: the fact that Matthew Farwell he did what he did
Speaker 6: and needs to go down in every way, shape and form.
Speaker 6: And those who are saying, well, he killed her for
Speaker 6: no reason, or he killed her for nothing, then.
Speaker 2: He killed her to silence her, No, I'm saying he
Speaker 2: will think he killed her for nothing.
Speaker 6: He oh, no, no, no, I understand. I'm saying that you
Speaker 6: know the idea that you know you did that, and
Speaker 6: he must be racking his brain thinking, I can't believe
Speaker 6: I did that for no reason. I mean, we can't
Speaker 6: really get into the mind of a killer on that
Speaker 6: level anyway, So let's not even try. But the the
Speaker 6: moving towards silencing and you know, putting an end to
Speaker 6: I guess the alleged trouble that that Sandro was causing
Speaker 6: by by trying to develop any sense of agency and
Speaker 6: independence during her her final months on this earth. It's
Speaker 6: that's what it's about. It was about ending her her agency,
Speaker 6: her her free her her strength, her voice. It was
Speaker 6: it was way more about that than it was about,
Speaker 6: sadly than it was about a baby or the you know,
Speaker 6: the presence of a baby. And and she should be
Speaker 6: here to have had the chance to to have a
Speaker 6: life and and figure out how a function in a
Speaker 6: world that was not very kind.
Speaker 3: To her, right, Yeah, and that that also could be
Speaker 3: a topic of discussion.
Speaker 2: But what were your thoughts on that, Trish? What what
Speaker 2: was your sort of reaction when you heard that.
Speaker 3: I guess as it's an unsourced it's not source that
Speaker 3: that he wasn't in fact the father.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it didn't weigh much for me.
Speaker 5: I don't really think it it mattered.
Speaker 3: Okay, interesting, very It was interesting because you know, for
Speaker 3: us it was very illuminating because we thought for sure
Speaker 3: that he he was the dad, and that that was
Speaker 3: his motivation, his primary vote. I don't think he would
Speaker 3: have ended her life were he not the dead at
Speaker 3: least if he thought that.
Speaker 2: He wasn't the dad. I don't think he would have
Speaker 2: her life. And so from that standpoint, I, oh, look
Speaker 2: who's here? The legend? Oh I Jen Ruth, what's up? Yes,
Speaker 2: another legend. And there's so many legends in here. Look
Speaker 2: at this.
Speaker 3: We got Leanbravo and Dennis and Terry, Coco, Lulubell, Joanna.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just talks of you in here.
Speaker 4: They're all here the hole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Boston, Brandy's here. What's the holmes and roths? Right?
Speaker 4: And great support out there?
Speaker 2: We do we do?
Speaker 4: All?
Speaker 2: Right? Then there was one other thing that I was
Speaker 2: going to ask you guys that Kate just popped into
Speaker 2: my head today. Oh, how how do we know when
Speaker 2: the first time?
Speaker 3: Was it something that she told a family member that
Speaker 3: Sandra was actually taken advantage of by one of these officers?
Speaker 3: What that we know that it was like fifteen as
Speaker 3: opposed to fourteen or sixteen, Not that it matters, but
Speaker 3: just I'm curious, how where did that?
Speaker 2: What's the source on that information?
Speaker 6: I'm going to I'm going to jump in with that.
Speaker 6: I don't so we don't necessarily know outside of the
Speaker 6: very full throttle investigation that the FBI did and going
Speaker 6: in the wayback machine and you know, calling through the
Speaker 6: messaging and the conversations that she was having, which were
Speaker 6: really distressing conversations mind you, that she was having with
Speaker 6: Matthew Farwell, you know, going down memory lane and sort
Speaker 6: of I don't know if it was in an enticement
Speaker 6: or it was just sort of how they communicated regularly.
Speaker 6: But it was in twenty twenty that she was referring
Speaker 6: to those those dates and having a really thorough discussion
Speaker 6: about them, which was disturbing. I don't think that there
Speaker 6: was anything that came out about discussing with a family
Speaker 6: member other than you know, she talked to her family
Speaker 6: members about what was going on in her life and
Speaker 6: her romantic interests and and and that she had a
Speaker 6: relationship with the police officer and that it was complicated,
Speaker 6: and that he was married, and and and that she
Speaker 6: was hoping, you know, that maybe there was a chance
Speaker 6: that they could be together in the future if if
Speaker 6: his marriage didn't you know, work out. But no, there
Speaker 6: wasn't really a you know, can we point to this
Speaker 6: origin other than you know, her not being alive in
Speaker 6: them having to do an investigation that that covered a
Speaker 6: lot of written material as well as messaging that referred
Speaker 6: to the dates and the onset of the relationship. So
Speaker 6: there's there's a lot of layers to how they came
Speaker 6: across those dates.
Speaker 3: A big thank you to Amy's Positive Pathways, who just
Speaker 3: just got certified and in this sort of counseling that
Speaker 3: she had trained for and got her masters in.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being a member for I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna let you guys take it away with where
Speaker 3: you want to go with it, because I don't think
Speaker 3: I need to steer this conversation. So jump in, be
Speaker 3: if you've got something, or if Chrisia, if you've got something,
Speaker 3: you can throw that out there. Otherwise we can just
Speaker 3: let these ladies do their damn thing because they've got lots.
Speaker 4: Hi Joe, I'll let you then lead away and I'll
Speaker 4: chime it.
Speaker 2: All right, go for it, take it away, Susan.
Speaker 6: Trishy, you're gonna have to chime in, chime in sooner
Speaker 6: rather than later. So so how we how we sort
Speaker 6: of came to be as as involved in this case
Speaker 6: as as we still are. Obviously it's just the hearing
Speaker 6: about Sandra's death and being members of the community where
Speaker 6: we're we're all humans, mothers, aunts, daughters, people who care
Speaker 6: about our neighbors and children in the community. We were
Speaker 6: just really shocked and stunned that even when we didn't
Speaker 6: know that she didn't take her own life, it was
Speaker 6: already a tragic enough story when the original story broke.
Speaker 6: So here we are in the middle of this state
Speaker 6: of affairs in Massachusetts with other high profile cases afoot
Speaker 6: and in this case drops and it doesn't even really
Speaker 6: make a lot of traction and noise, and col Atrician
Speaker 6: and I came to know each other. Was just the
Speaker 6: shock and trying to represent a voice for Sander Birchmore
Speaker 6: and kind of being amongst this crowd of justice seeking
Speaker 6: warriors and just looking at each other saying what we
Speaker 6: need to do more for for Sander Birchmore, I mean
Speaker 6: not she ultimately doesn't have any voice, and it was heartbreaking.
Speaker 6: And along the way, we've discovered that there's a huge
Speaker 6: need to figure out one how this could ever in
Speaker 6: a million years happen to anyone, and two how can
Speaker 6: we prevent it? So there's been a lot of research
Speaker 6: and work going on to with with task force and
Speaker 6: panels who are educated on these matters, even law enforcement
Speaker 6: professionals who are tasked with apprehending these monsters, all towards
Speaker 6: the goal of not only finding justice for Sander Birchmore,
Speaker 6: but how do we prevent this from continuing? How do
Speaker 6: we help other potential I don't even want to say
Speaker 6: potential victims in the community, because there's just no doubt
Speaker 6: whatsoever that others were impacted by this ongoing treasure behavior.
Speaker 6: So it becomes a matter of creating a safe space
Speaker 6: and maybe a way for anybody to reach out. And
Speaker 6: mind you, not all of us have a master's degree
Speaker 6: or or have the means to do an investigation or
Speaker 6: create safety, but damn it, we will point you to
Speaker 6: where you need to go. There's there's a lot of safe,
Speaker 6: caring people in this in this justice community, and there's
Speaker 6: no doubt in my mind that if somebody were to
Speaker 6: feel comfortable having a conversation to just start with you know, hey,
Speaker 6: I'm upset thinking about what happened to Sander birch More.
Speaker 6: I you know, I knew her growing up. I'm sad
Speaker 6: about I need to talk to someone. If we don't
Speaker 6: know who the person is to talk to, we're going
Speaker 6: to find it out, you know, we'll figure it out together,
Speaker 6: but the community needs to heal other. First of all,
Speaker 6: there should never be the existence of another Sander birch
Speaker 6: More case. But that it happened at all means that
Speaker 6: that a lot needs to happen to prevent and create
Speaker 6: awareness and and to heal moving forward, and it is
Speaker 6: possible to educate the communities and create, you know, a
Speaker 6: multidisciplinary way to help everybody.
Speaker 5: When I first heard of Sandro's story and started diving
Speaker 5: into a bit and learning that it started at Stote
Speaker 5: O'Donnell Middle schools, that screamed to me.
Speaker 4: My son was currently at the school at that time.
Speaker 5: When when I found out that piece of the story,
Speaker 5: and so pulling up to that school every day, I
Speaker 5: saw three you know three, there was three cop cars there.
Speaker 5: There was officers in the school. My son would tell me,
Speaker 5: and I would think how great it was that he
Speaker 5: was safe. The police department were involved in the middle school,
Speaker 5: in the high school. And to find out Andrew's abuse
Speaker 5: started in Stoton o'donald Middle.
Speaker 4: School floored me.
Speaker 5: It floored me as a parent, it floored me as
Speaker 5: a member, a community member in Stoughton, and it brought
Speaker 5: a lot of shame to me that I didn't know,
Speaker 5: and I asked myself how many others didn't know? And
Speaker 5: I thought I should know about that as a parent,
Speaker 5: and that just you know, there was a moment there
Speaker 5: where I just asked myself.
Speaker 4: What was I going to do about that?
Speaker 5: And that's when I found out about the first standout
Speaker 5: that I attended in November of twenty three, and just
Speaker 5: felt compelled to show up and try to give Sandra
Speaker 5: a voice.
Speaker 3: And you know, to this end, because Coco's bringing it
Speaker 3: up here and both of you have alluded to it and.
Speaker 2: I've discussed it before. What do you think about that
Speaker 2: a parent of the explorer Cadre A companies kids on
Speaker 2: all training events that there's no And it's it's crazy
Speaker 2: to say this as we say it, because we're saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: the kids are not safe with police, like, which is like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, they're they're the ones that protect them
Speaker 2: against predators, right.
Speaker 3: But but the FBI agent that came on, he was
Speaker 3: on with Mike, He was on with that guy Todd,
Speaker 3: the former MSP guy.
Speaker 2: Can't think of his last name right now, Todd. It
Speaker 2: was around the time of the Enrique that Enrique isn't
Speaker 2: alive and McGee, Yeah, Todd McGee. There was an FBI
Speaker 2: agent that appeared a couple of times with Todd McGee
Speaker 2: and he said, my kid don't go anywhere alone when
Speaker 2: when we're.
Speaker 3: Doing scouting, the boy scouts. None of these guys are
Speaker 3: alone with my kid, you know, So that that's that's
Speaker 3: how it goes. So what do you guys.
Speaker 2: Think about parents of a Cadre member required on all
Speaker 2: events so that guys and gals are not alone with
Speaker 2: these guys. Guys, what do you think about that?
Speaker 6: Well, I'll jump off for part of that, and if
Speaker 6: Tricia has any input, obviously go for that as well.
Speaker 6: But they never were supposed to be alone and one
Speaker 6: on one the biggest issue. And I'm not saying, hey, let's,
Speaker 6: you know, not rule out the Explorers program because clearly
Speaker 6: it is I don't know if defunct is the right word,
Speaker 6: but certainly as it as it exists now, or with
Speaker 6: the problems that have been prevalent for so many years,
Speaker 6: it can't continue the way that it is or has been.
Speaker 6: But the agreement and policy and procedure that was supposed
Speaker 6: to be upheld throughout this entire period and through many
Speaker 6: other treacherous stories regarding the Explorers is that no one
Speaker 6: is supposed to be one on one right alongs are
Speaker 6: not supposed to happen without another law enforcement professional or
Speaker 6: another you know, they just weren't supposed to be solo rides.
Speaker 3: Well, one thing, I don't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 3: If it were far well and Robert Divine, is that acceptable.
Speaker 6: Well, obviously not well of your origin story where there
Speaker 6: was already there was clearly already something bad afoot back
Speaker 6: when it was you know, the boys riding along and
Speaker 6: that you know there their interest in becoming law enforcement professionals,
Speaker 6: stoked by their admiration for a dude like Robert Divine
Speaker 6: that got them there. That was that was clearly an
Speaker 6: origin story for for their mental defects.
Speaker 3: But if you had, if you had a parent riding along,
Speaker 3: then that couldn't have happened.
Speaker 2: You had one member of one Explorer.
Speaker 3: Parent on each night day whatever however this has going down,
Speaker 3: uh that so that they're not alone, then it can't happen,
Speaker 3: right that it's not creezy, say, well.
Speaker 6: It's not something to rule out obviously if there's a
Speaker 6: if there's a parent, that that would and will do that.
Speaker 6: But what we're dealing with here and which is really
Speaker 6: prevalent with Explorers, and and I don't mean this to
Speaker 6: any offense anyone here who's been through the program and
Speaker 6: has been part of an intact family, but there are
Speaker 6: a lot of children going through Explorers that are there
Speaker 6: because they don't have an intact family, or they are
Speaker 6: seeking guidance from other respectable, admirable adults. So that that
Speaker 6: makes it even more of a betrayal that you maybe
Speaker 6: there are kids who are I don't want to stay lost,
Speaker 6: but those who are looking for guidance. And you know,
Speaker 6: I was a single mother my daughter, you know, part
Speaker 6: of what got me involved in this story is or
Speaker 6: this case is just realizing that, holy shit, this girl
Speaker 6: looks like my daughter. I mean, they're relatively the same age.
Speaker 6: And my daughter grew up around law enforcement and participated
Speaker 6: in in DARE and programs like that, and what we
Speaker 6: had in our lives that was different was relationships with
Speaker 6: law enforcement professionals that were part of her life that
Speaker 6: would say to somebody, you know, don't mess with you know,
Speaker 6: don't mess with her. Right, I'm not going to say
Speaker 6: her name, because you know it's her story to tell.
Speaker 6: But she said, I even if there were somebody who
Speaker 6: was going to behave inappropriately, which she did not, thankfully encounter,
Speaker 6: she had a stepfather or cousins or uncles that would
Speaker 6: say you better stay the hell away from her, or
Speaker 6: you got to answer to us. Nobody should really need
Speaker 6: that extra layer of protection. It should be embedded in
Speaker 6: the programs and the resources themselves that there just shouldn't be.
Speaker 6: There shouldn't be any loose ends like that, and there
Speaker 6: shouldn't be, but here we are.
Speaker 2: The very nature of the position is called law enforcement.
Speaker 2: I mean like it's.
Speaker 3: Supposed to be baked into their title that this wouldn't happen.
Speaker 3: It's it's part of what they're supposed to be preventing.
Speaker 3: Would you like to answer this one, Tricia, this question
Speaker 3: that Julie has our mod Jules, Yeah.
Speaker 5: I've been staring at that question for you. I've been
Speaker 5: staring at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you say?
Speaker 5: Of course, there's many others. There are others, and that's
Speaker 5: why we're here tonight to try to reach.
Speaker 2: Out to people even within that department.
Speaker 3: Do you have intel that there were several others that
Speaker 3: were victims of the Stoughton police officer exports, yes you do.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's well.
Speaker 6: So we both we both had conversations with individuals, whether
Speaker 6: at a standout or even you know, dive bar, during downtime,
Speaker 6: during just friendly you know conversations, maybe even through social
Speaker 6: media where somebody has identified as being harmed or affected
Speaker 6: in some way. And and we've even at least I
Speaker 6: think both Trishian I have met people who identified as
Speaker 6: being in recovery from some type of abuse and just
Speaker 6: felt that it was a safe space to bring up
Speaker 6: the subject and say, boy, I'm really glad y'all are
Speaker 6: here to start a conversation because I was feeling a
Speaker 6: certain kind of way. Crowds are intimidating, but you seem approachable,
Speaker 6: And that's exactly the kind of dialogue that we both
Speaker 6: want to start, or many people want to start, is
Speaker 6: to just identify as a safe person and say I'm
Speaker 6: so sorry that you've had an experience that they brought
Speaker 6: you here that made you interested in in her case,
Speaker 6: because let's face it, it's a grueling, difficult, sad, upsetting case.
Speaker 6: If somebody is showing up for it, there's a really
Speaker 6: good chance that they're struggling with something themselves. And I've
Speaker 6: found that a lot and talking to people. Some people
Speaker 6: are affected just by knowing that that they grew up
Speaker 6: with her and were in you know, a classroom setting
Speaker 6: or sports with Sandra and felt survivor's guilt because of not,
Speaker 6: you know, not being able to recognize warning signs or
Speaker 6: that she was in distress. You know, I thought she
Speaker 6: was okay. She was always really nice and had a
Speaker 6: lot of energy and was kind to others, and it
Speaker 6: just makes it that much more devastating.
Speaker 5: And there was others that when she did share what
Speaker 5: was going on in the relationships that she was having,
Speaker 5: they didn't believe her. And there was a lot of
Speaker 5: that going And then people now today looking back who
Speaker 5: did go to school with her did not you know,
Speaker 5: they were kids themselves, right, They were kids themselves, They
Speaker 5: were teenagers themselves. They weren't the ones targeted and then
Speaker 5: that scenario, but going through high school, you know, they
Speaker 5: just they couldn't see it, so and they struggle with
Speaker 5: not believing our or giving our hard time in school
Speaker 5: or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 3: That that podcast by Kirk Minihan, they found at least
Speaker 3: one girl that they interviewed that said they that she
Speaker 3: knew that. I don't know if she had a kiss
Speaker 3: with Divine, but there was something in the laundry room,
Speaker 3: so that there was certainly.
Speaker 5: It was in a closet at Stone O'Donnell Middle School.
Speaker 5: It was very clear to me that was part of
Speaker 5: the story that really floored me because my question was
Speaker 5: how did not others notice?
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, because you.
Speaker 5: With an administration the day to day, because that's where
Speaker 5: the relationship essentially started and took place, was during those
Speaker 5: hours where they could have access.
Speaker 3: This gets back to there shouldn't be any one of
Speaker 3: them alone with these officers. There should be a parent
Speaker 3: and it could be a family, like Suzanne said, Well,
Speaker 3: maybe they don't have a nuclear mom and dad.
Speaker 2: Maybe they only have one or the other. That's what
Speaker 2: we're looking at today, cousin. We have more vulnerable.
Speaker 5: Children today and that's what they target is vulnerable children
Speaker 5: and families, addiction abuse, pre existing vulnerable.
Speaker 3: They know how to choose, and apparently Coco wants to
Speaker 3: know because of the effort required, how dirty was Tima's
Speaker 3: toilet that it took him that long? So I think Tima,
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to roger up to that I don't
Speaker 3: know how dirty it was, but it's okay, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, everybody, everybody's got toilet duty, no pun intended.
Speaker 4: To that.
Speaker 1: But in a school setting, you wouldn't expect a parent
Speaker 1: to be walking around. So in a school setting, that
Speaker 1: means that there's teachers that shouldn't be allowing the children
Speaker 1: in the hallways by themselves to have even the opportunity
Speaker 1: to get into a closet with a cop like you
Speaker 1: see what I mean, Like you can't just say the
Speaker 1: parent should be walking around school too. I mean, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't let our kids allowed, right right.
Speaker 6: Actually, I want to add, I want to add to
Speaker 6: be his point because this actually shows up quite a
Speaker 6: bit in the in the investigation, the internal investigation, that
Speaker 6: there was quite a bit of passing of the buck.
Speaker 6: There was this school administration saying, well, I don't know
Speaker 6: that's that's divine. Robert Devine was able to hide a
Speaker 6: lot behind the whole. Well, this is his program. This
Speaker 6: is something that he set up, and he would say
Speaker 6: that my program's independent of the oversight of blah blah blah,
Speaker 6: and the school would say, our programs are in our
Speaker 6: separate from his. This is this is the divine thing.
Speaker 6: You've got to You've got to check with the police,
Speaker 6: and he would tell the police, Oh, no, this is separate.
Speaker 6: So there was a lot of plotting and scheming in
Speaker 6: order to make make it so that no school administrator
Speaker 6: was was thinking about having these awkward conversations, and nor
Speaker 6: was the police department, because they already had some issues
Speaker 6: going on and some problems afoot with their own you know,
Speaker 6: shady dealings they were. The Stoughton Police Department was still
Speaker 6: in recovery from a full blown you know, Rico case
Speaker 6: that was waiting on ten years when Robert Devine was
Speaker 6: able to slide in as soon as the and I
Speaker 6: say slide in with purpose. FBI had just sort of
Speaker 6: left watching over Stoton PD when the new power came
Speaker 6: in with with Chief Shastiny and Divine, and they were
Speaker 6: supposed to be the ones to clean up the apartment.
Speaker 6: So Dolton had a lot to do to clean up
Speaker 6: their reputation, and as far as they were concerned, Divine
Speaker 6: was doing this wonderful thing in the community, which was
Speaker 6: to engage, you know, do more proactive, interactive activities with
Speaker 6: the kids and get them involved in caring about law
Speaker 6: enforcement and and you know, being being good citizens. But
Speaker 6: there there was no there was no oversight. And the
Speaker 6: Explorers we are supposed to you know, coach and train
Speaker 6: and give everybody directives about the not not being you know,
Speaker 6: alone in rooms or or not being in cars alone.
Speaker 6: But Divine was he plotted and scheme he was able
Speaker 6: to get around that. Oh, don't worry about it. I
Speaker 6: just got to talk to this kid about this activity.
Speaker 6: You know, we're doing a They did active shooter training
Speaker 6: through through his Explorer program, and it was his job
Speaker 6: to you know, rally all the kids and get them together.
Speaker 6: And they went around and you know, picked up the
Speaker 6: kids to bring them to this This is a crazy
Speaker 6: story which we'll have to maybe talk about in another show.
Speaker 6: There was a very lengthy and crazy story about them
Speaker 6: going to pick up all these kids and taking them
Speaker 6: to this obscure place to go. I understand at training,
Speaker 6: but nobody was overseeing this particular drill. And these were
Speaker 6: what twelve thirteen, fourteen year old kids showing up in
Speaker 6: the middle of in the middle of nowhere or just
Speaker 6: on a you know, on some space to do active
Speaker 6: shooter training. And it was it seemed more like a
Speaker 6: hazing activity to keep the kids in line. So they
Speaker 6: were learning this valuable insight about how to protect yourselves
Speaker 6: from an active shooter. But they were growny, little kid
Speaker 6: in shirts being shot at with bean bag bullets and paintballs.
Speaker 6: So after they had this exercise and the kids were
Speaker 6: brought home from this, they had they had welts all
Speaker 6: over their bodies and were you know, putting ice packs
Speaker 6: on their on their little arms, and the parents were
Speaker 6: just like trying to put together what happened, and they
Speaker 6: just I was a kid once. It was quite a
Speaker 6: long time ago, but I probably would have had a
Speaker 6: sense of bravado or obstinates about, well, yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: shit happens, we got rough, you know. But to me,
Speaker 6: it was it was more than that. It was a
Speaker 6: it was a scare. It was a scare event. It
Speaker 6: was a way to let the kids know that, you know,
Speaker 6: we can do this to you, and we can drop
Speaker 6: you off and your parents aren't even going to ask
Speaker 6: why you're covered in wealth because you signed up for
Speaker 6: it and your parents signed off on the discoint. You know,
Speaker 6: do you call it the thing that says if anything
Speaker 6: happens to you, it's not Stolton P's fault. The waiver, Yes,
Speaker 6: the waiver.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's examples of waivers were.
Speaker 6: You know, being overseen by Robert Divine. Like how scary
Speaker 6: is that?
Speaker 4: I was just going to say that.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's interesting to see all these things were
Speaker 5: played out by Robert Divine. He truly was the mastermind
Speaker 5: behind a lot of this, as well as we know
Speaker 5: the abuser to the Fogwell Brothers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about That's a whole other component to this.
Speaker 3: What I was going to say is that I think,
Speaker 3: been someone who wore a uniform for twenty one years,
Speaker 3: I know that people can put a lot of value
Speaker 3: on that that may not be warranted just by virtue
Speaker 3: wearing one. So those guys, when you take a predator
Speaker 3: like Divine and you place him in that uniform with
Speaker 3: their their.
Speaker 2: Hat with a little eyes pushed down and rolled up
Speaker 2: at the front and the whole nine yards that over over,
Speaker 2: overdone kind of a cocta hat that they wear. People
Speaker 2: are gonna even school administrators and we're like, oh, these
Speaker 2: kids are safe, man, they're safe. Look at this guy.
Speaker 3: You know, he's all got you know, he might have
Speaker 3: his tactical vest on he's got his club, he's got
Speaker 3: his tasers, got his weapon, he's got a belt full
Speaker 3: of stuff on it is as safe.
Speaker 2: As in his mother's arms. And they don't realize that
Speaker 2: that is exactly what this guy's counting on, is that
Speaker 2: you're not going to be looking at them. And by
Speaker 2: the way, we do have questions for you guys.
Speaker 5: I just want to go off of that as well.
Speaker 5: Joe Gorman, you know, he's he's another stoat in the
Speaker 5: height and he was, you know, saying in the chat
Speaker 5: I could see that. It's sad to hear about Robert Divine.
Speaker 5: You've seen him throughout the community and respected him. And
Speaker 5: that's the thing about these these groomers. They're charming and
Speaker 5: that's that's. Yes, you think that they're great citizen, it's
Speaker 5: a whole charming. It's an act and that's how they
Speaker 5: ploy and scheme.
Speaker 7: And the uniform, the parents in the it's a big,
Speaker 7: big discriminator. It's the carry potter cloak of invisibility, correct,
Speaker 7: because they thought, no, she's not in it. Not only
Speaker 7: is she, she's as safe as she could be. Or
Speaker 7: he in this case because he's loot. I don't know
Speaker 7: what rank was he then was he assistant chief yet
Speaker 7: or was he just he.
Speaker 6: Was he was deputy chief, and he was deputy chief
Speaker 6: and he was given you know, as explorers, was given
Speaker 6: to him as as an assignment to sort of to
Speaker 6: beef it up and to make make the department look better.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna go ahead and speculate the divine wasn't right
Speaker 6: in the head back then, because I don't, you know,
Speaker 6: it's just how do they make these choices? Who knows?
Speaker 6: But nope, you know, grooming wouldn't be effective if everybody
Speaker 6: came out of the gate wearing a big pee for
Speaker 6: Predator on their chest, you know. They it's the it's
Speaker 6: the hiding and playing sight and the and even well
Speaker 6: and to your point DJ about the about the uniform
Speaker 6: and all the bells and whistles. These guys added shock
Speaker 6: and awe to it. I mean when you talk about
Speaker 6: the firewells and I know one of your one of
Speaker 6: your mods talks about the military aspect of it. They
Speaker 6: were coming in and doing demonstrations with with you know,
Speaker 6: explosives and and the dogs. And also you've got that
Speaker 6: aspect of it, and that's gonna be that's really exciting.
Speaker 6: I didn't have that ship in my life as a teenager.
Speaker 6: We would stand like on a hut playground somewhere and
Speaker 6: learn about you know, stranger danger and baking the sun
Speaker 6: and do next nothing. These kids are having explosive demonstrations
Speaker 6: and demonstrations with canines and an active shooter training. It
Speaker 6: was kind of exciting stuff.
Speaker 3: Let's get all three of you to react to this one,
Speaker 3: Tricia Bion and.
Speaker 2: This is from Perry and Sue. So once you start
Speaker 2: this attrition.
Speaker 4: See willing to try and cover.
Speaker 3: I can't believe so many coups are willing to try
Speaker 3: to cover. Yeah, why so what is your reaction to
Speaker 3: Why would those guys want to cover for someone who
Speaker 3: it appears doesn't deserve to wear the uniform? Why would
Speaker 3: they cover?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean there could be several scenarios involvement.
Speaker 2: No what from the troopers side, you're the investigating off sir,
Speaker 2: Let's say you weren't involved.
Speaker 4: Ah, yes, so Fannings yeah or BUKACKI.
Speaker 5: I think there's a bigger picture here of what's going on.
Speaker 5: I think this is something that Susanna and I agreed
Speaker 5: with very early on, that there's a systemic issue going
Speaker 5: on with child sex, trafficking and grooming of children. And
Speaker 5: I think it's happening on a bigger level where Mastate
Speaker 5: police are aware. Politically they are aware, Morrissey is aware,
Speaker 5: and that would give them investments. I think Sandra became
Speaker 5: a liability at one point, and a liability to many.
Speaker 6: So there are some really I want to answer this on,
Speaker 6: you know, sort of a more general sense of the
Speaker 6: numerous reasons why cases like this don't actually make it
Speaker 6: to don't make it anywhere number one, or maybe not
Speaker 6: number one, but say there are four or five prongs
Speaker 6: of it, one of them being fear of retaliation. Farrewell's
Speaker 6: pretty I know people will be horribly offended when I
Speaker 6: say this, but a scary dude. He's a scary dude.
Speaker 6: He's a terrifying dude. I mean, both of them are.
Speaker 6: I remember at some point, I don't remember who it was,
Speaker 6: but somebody said, you know, my money was on William Farrewell.
Speaker 6: I thought he was the more twisted of the two,
Speaker 6: and I thought, well, that's actually not good to think that.
Speaker 6: You know, we know what we know about Matthew Farrewell,
Speaker 6: and that somebody when somebody heard firewell, you know, may
Speaker 6: have may have done this to Sander birchmore the fact
Speaker 6: that they thought it had to be the other one. Again,
Speaker 6: it goes back to the whole there's more than one
Speaker 6: monster here, and so fear of retaliation from somebody who's
Speaker 6: obviously violent, obviously doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything.
Speaker 6: The other facet of it is, these are the people
Speaker 6: that that you work with day to day in an
Speaker 6: effort to prosecute cases. He was a detective. Detectives need
Speaker 6: each other in order to get to get the job done,
Speaker 6: and they work hand in hand with the prosecutors. I'm
Speaker 6: not saying in any ways, it's not a justification. It's
Speaker 6: just a complication that that there is, that there's this
Speaker 6: hunkering down of it's too inconvenient to know exactly what
Speaker 6: happened here, So let's just put that in a like
Speaker 6: I want to say, literally in a box and like
Speaker 6: lock it in someone's office until I guess, until the
Speaker 6: FBI come for it. But there there was a lack
Speaker 6: of design to move forward because it would just uncover
Speaker 6: so much other shit and nobody's ready for it, and
Speaker 6: nobody wants even now, nobody really wants to know exactly
Speaker 6: how how much is under the cover up part Now
Speaker 6: that we've all done our online sleuthing thing, and we've
Speaker 6: seen what Matthew Farwell looks like walking in and out
Speaker 6: of that apartment building, and we know the details of
Speaker 6: how Sander was found and in the extent of the
Speaker 6: relationships and it's not relationships, the abusive relationships that were
Speaker 6: going on the fact that we know all that, and
Speaker 6: there was at least six or seven other law enforcement
Speaker 6: professionals who saw all that too and had to say, yeah, no, boss,
Speaker 6: we're not going to move forward with this one, like
Speaker 6: are you are you shitting me? How not even a
Speaker 6: cursory look as to how the girl could have ended
Speaker 6: up in so much pain, in so much trouble that
Speaker 6: that was the only alternative. There wasn't even really a
Speaker 6: full effort to look at that part of it. If
Speaker 6: she had died by suicide, which we know she didn't,
Speaker 6: why wouldn't there have been an effort to figure out
Speaker 6: how the heck that happened and what was going And
Speaker 6: then when they actually could see that there were multiple
Speaker 6: types of really serious abuse going on over a long time,
Speaker 6: even then, they didn't move forward with apprehending anyone. I
Speaker 6: it does make you wonder what their motives were, because
Speaker 6: not everybody can be as bad as the Farewells and
Speaker 6: Divine and josh Heel and our fifth maybe will never
Speaker 6: be named military recruiter because these are these are all
Speaker 6: part of the case. They're all part of you know record.
Speaker 6: If you will, I hope we do. You get to
Speaker 6: find out who all the scumbags are and bring them
Speaker 6: to justice, because if they're out there and they get
Speaker 6: away with it, it's not very likely safe to whatever
Speaker 6: community they're still working in.
Speaker 2: Bah did Why did those troopers see fit to let
Speaker 2: a Stoton cop walk on this?
Speaker 1: I think it comes back to they work too closely
Speaker 1: with the with the Norfolk County DA's office. These officers
Speaker 1: are you know, they take over, they work hand in
Speaker 1: hand with them. And then it comes back around to
Speaker 1: Jen's point. At all times, they can't investigate themselves. That's
Speaker 1: the issue you have when it when there is a
Speaker 1: crime against or an alleged crime that an officer has committed,
Speaker 1: they should not have other you know, closely working you know,
Speaker 1: investigators that they work closely.
Speaker 6: With investigating them.
Speaker 1: There needs to be an independent agency actually making a
Speaker 1: look at these things. So again, I think it comes
Speaker 1: back to they can't investigate themselves.
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me rephrase it.
Speaker 3: If you were going to put you in uniform, you're
Speaker 3: you're a mass day trooper now and you're embedded with
Speaker 3: this this office here, why would you want this guy
Speaker 3: to be in you to wear essentially, I know they
Speaker 3: don't wear the same uniform. Why would you want this
Speaker 3: person to have a badge like you do? If you
Speaker 3: know he's a criminal imp and you believe that he
Speaker 3: murdered this girl, why would you want Why wouldn't you
Speaker 3: want to say, I want to extricate him, eliminate him
Speaker 3: from this brotherhood that we have because he's not one
Speaker 3: of us. So why would they not feel that way?
Speaker 5: You would think the good cops would be angry, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure there.
Speaker 2: Are many are, Yeah, but they didn't.
Speaker 4: There's a fair factor here, I believe.
Speaker 3: Of what what is Farwell going to come beat you
Speaker 3: up if you haven't arrested for murder, that means that
Speaker 3: what you're working, you know, I'll quote Brian from the
Speaker 3: LV Cops, there's none of these guys scare me.
Speaker 8: Well, well, there's the the Enrique we saw what happened
Speaker 8: with Enrique, and I think that's a real life scenario
Speaker 8: that played out in real time for us to see.
Speaker 4: What what what's happening.
Speaker 6: Well, so so yeah, I'm just catching Boston Brandy's comment. Yes, yes,
Speaker 6: Boston Brandy, Yes, that is the case and allegedly and allegedly,
Speaker 6: but not allegedly. So what I've heard from law enforcement
Speaker 6: professionals who who do care and do want to do
Speaker 6: the right thing and and are dedicated to being on
Speaker 6: task forces where they apprehend people such as Matthew Farrewell,
Speaker 6: is that they are They're not hiding behind being overwhelmed,
Speaker 6: but indicating that they are in fact overwhelmed, and that
Speaker 6: they are working it as constantly and as fiercely as
Speaker 6: they can. And by the way, if it had been
Speaker 6: twenty years ago, you wouldn't even we wouldn't even be
Speaker 6: having these conversations. So the fact that you're seeing indictments
Speaker 6: and you're seeing apprehensions, and you're seeing some of these
Speaker 6: dominoes fall is a really positive result of an intensive
Speaker 6: amount of work. And I have to believe that that
Speaker 6: is hopeful that these dedicated multidisciplinary professionals who are in
Speaker 6: fact trying to stop the bad guys. They live and
Speaker 6: breathe it and they want to, but they're up against
Speaker 6: a lot, you know, just in terms of the sheer
Speaker 6: magnitude of the task, which is I hate to bring
Speaker 6: up a another question on a panel where I'm answering questions,
Speaker 6: but why is there such a demand? Like why is
Speaker 6: there such why are there why is there such a
Speaker 6: market for this type of behavior that that any law
Speaker 6: enforcement professional is so passed with having to stop predators.
Speaker 6: I mean it, it's unfathomable for me. And I'm not
Speaker 6: even doing I'm just trying to create awareness and trying
Speaker 6: to help create some healing. But they really do have
Speaker 6: the deck stacked against them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that doesn't.
Speaker 6: Wonder why why it's like that, you know, But this.
Speaker 3: Case is not indicative of that, Suzanne, because they didn't
Speaker 3: have the deck stacked against them. They knew what happened.
Speaker 3: They hid text messages, and they facilitated the Basically the
Speaker 3: exculpation of the criminal is what they did. So it's
Speaker 3: not a resources issue. It's see, you like to me
Speaker 3: when you're part of something elite, I want only the
Speaker 3: elite around me. Now there's gonna be different levels of elite.
Speaker 3: Like with what I was when I was doing what
Speaker 3: I was doing in uniform, I wanted to be among
Speaker 3: the elite and belong there. And there are certain standards
Speaker 3: these guys. It doesn't matter if you're a leader or
Speaker 3: not elite. You could be a criminal. But just because
Speaker 3: you went through the academy and you put the badge
Speaker 3: on in the uniform, I'm gonna protect you, even if
Speaker 3: you kill this girl. I mean, that's in that doesn't
Speaker 3: make sense.
Speaker 6: I would want you.
Speaker 9: In jail to say you're not one of us, Matt,
Speaker 9: Billy Robert, you don't belong with us because you're not
Speaker 9: a law enforcement officer.
Speaker 2: You're a criminal.
Speaker 6: Okay, but let's address that because I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 6: say something really controversial and horrifying for most to that
Speaker 6: that it wasn't it wasn't, it wasn't isolated there there
Speaker 6: are others. We don't know how much the others, so
Speaker 6: we don't know. I mean if from at a glance,
Speaker 6: at a glance at looking at the indictment, you know,
Speaker 6: paperwork specifically for Farewell, it would would the world would
Speaker 6: be a better place if we could just isolate it
Speaker 6: to him being the only monster. I'm sensing that the
Speaker 6: quick action to bury this and to you know, put
Speaker 6: it under the rug and to say nothing to see
Speaker 6: here with thirty two seven and nine text messages is
Speaker 6: motivated by the fact that it is much bigger and
Speaker 6: more vast than just those couple of random assholes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'm just I only have them.
Speaker 3: If we were to have an experimental group, like I
Speaker 3: could call the larger cadre of the control group, and
Speaker 3: this is the experimental group.
Speaker 2: The experimental group failed.
Speaker 3: I mean they they covered it up and they didn't
Speaker 3: want to be elite, and they facilitated them perhaps doing
Speaker 3: it again. You know, divine might be doing it again.
Speaker 3: For all we know is an attorney worried and pissed off,
Speaker 3: says lead investigator.
Speaker 2: And most of the cops in Brian Welsh case are
Speaker 2: same as ones of wald Sandra Burchmore, Karen Reid. Constitutional
Speaker 2: rights violated constantly, et cetera. That is, folks, show we
Speaker 2: got about twenty minutes left, So I want to give
Speaker 2: you guys the floor to just illuminate for the audience
Speaker 2: anything that you want, because you know, a hell of
Speaker 2: a lot more than we do. And I'm sorry Kiyoka
Speaker 2: that you hurt your thumb and that typing is going
Speaker 2: to be a challenge and I don't know if you
Speaker 2: can use this talk to text. But anyway, thank you
Speaker 2: for coming in. I oh, big, it's better. Please take
Speaker 2: it away and we can.
Speaker 6: Take a few questions too. I can't see, I can't
Speaker 6: we have if there's anything that stands.
Speaker 2: Out, yeah, let me know. These are the ones.
Speaker 3: This one really gets to the FBI things is ken
Speaker 3: the FBI look deeper into SB phone record, sell location, text,
Speaker 3: and deduce what other males were around her during that
Speaker 3: conception time and follow the DNA test of of course,
Speaker 3: of those men. I mean I can answer that one
Speaker 3: for you. The answer is yes, they could. Uh, and
Speaker 3: maybe they do know who those men were.
Speaker 2: We we don't know. They probably do know.
Speaker 6: I'm certain that they calculate. I'm certain that they know
Speaker 6: a lot more than than we do. Coco. I am
Speaker 6: certain that they do not have divines DNA because I
Speaker 6: another unpopular opinion is a divine, you know, step forth
Speaker 6: to get his law degree so that he could devote
Speaker 6: his life to covering up his own scumbag behavior. And
Speaker 6: he is not going to answer affirmatively, to giving up DNA,
Speaker 6: to doing a lie detect or anything.
Speaker 2: That can I speak to this one.
Speaker 6: He's fighting, he's fighting for his own right to be
Speaker 6: a scumbag right now, can.
Speaker 2: Speak to this one.
Speaker 3: There is a methodology that they use to get these
Speaker 3: and it really involves placing an agent inside a restaurant.
Speaker 3: Bartenders can do it with a beer glass. They will
Speaker 3: switch out your beer glass when you go to the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Cigarette is one. If you're a smoker.
Speaker 2: There are forks, spoons.
Speaker 3: So basically they will use basically someone going to a restaurant.
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't say for sure that they don't have
Speaker 3: divines DNA. It was a question of how creative he was.
Speaker 3: And after a few drinks, guy goes to take a
Speaker 3: leak and they switch out his beer. There's lots of
Speaker 3: different ways that they can do this, but a lot
Speaker 3: of it revolves around eating, following them with when they
Speaker 3: go to Starbucks, you know, and they get a cup,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of I'll just say there are
Speaker 3: ways that they do this. Let's see, we talked about
Speaker 3: Timm's toilet, we talked about Boston Brandy. Yeah, if you
Speaker 3: have questions for Tricia and Susanne.
Speaker 6: I DJ, I love that you brought up the the
Speaker 6: FBI agent in the in the the restaurant and the drink,
Speaker 6: you know, all that, because that's how allegedly Brian Albert
Speaker 6: was able to to take one of the suspects off
Speaker 6: of the Brians the what do you call it, the
Speaker 6: the Boston Strangler case through dumpster diving water bottles.
Speaker 2: That's another thing that they in.
Speaker 6: Fact to intertwine into this case that that, yeah, it
Speaker 6: was somebody's relatives I think poland spring bottle that actually
Speaker 6: allowed Brian Albert to break or or to debunk and
Speaker 6: to debunk brost Boston Strangler.
Speaker 2: Case.
Speaker 6: So that this is just bizarre, but Divine is somebody
Speaker 6: who first of all, he would have had to have
Speaker 6: been being looked at during this period, and I feel
Speaker 6: like he's probably spent a lot of his time making sure,
Speaker 6: like you said, being creative and moving in such a
Speaker 6: way it doesn't allow anybody. And he's a paranoid dude.
Speaker 6: I'm sure that he sure is. So that he didn't
Speaker 6: just leave, you know, glasses on the table for people
Speaker 6: to swoop away from him because he was doing shady shit.
Speaker 6: Long before Santa Brtimore.
Speaker 3: Well, there's well, there's a lot of well, I'll say
Speaker 3: this like sort of like John Voight told Robert de
Speaker 3: Niro in that movie Heat.
Speaker 2: He says, the police they can hit and miss, you
Speaker 2: can't miss once when they were knocking over those banks.
Speaker 2: So I would just tell you, over these three years,
Speaker 2: it's not impossible that they got his DNA either, as
Speaker 2: Kyoka pointed out, by going in his trash and getting
Speaker 2: things out of his trash, or even just being at
Speaker 2: a bar, even being in a restaurant, he can be
Speaker 2: as careful as he wants to be. They they they
Speaker 2: can hit and miss, but he can't miss once.
Speaker 3: They only got to get one thing that has his
Speaker 3: saliva on it, and I suspect they probably have that.
Speaker 2: I would suspect that.
Speaker 6: Your lips to God's ears. DJ, Let's hope. Let's hope
Speaker 6: they do.
Speaker 3: It's been done. I mean, this is a methodology. This
Speaker 3: is not something new that they do. It's it's you know,
Speaker 3: this is.
Speaker 1: I do have a question, why do you think since
Speaker 1: he was arrested at the end of September that his
Speaker 1: hearing just keeps getting pushed off And now it's the
Speaker 1: new estate of August, Like, what do you think, Like
Speaker 1: my personal theory is that he must be in there,
Speaker 1: you know, possibly talking but making deals. Yes, but you know,
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts of why he hasn't been
Speaker 1: you know, just keeps kicking the can down the road.
Speaker 6: So I do, And and just it was it was August,
Speaker 6: not September. It's not a huge not a huge factor
Speaker 6: because it's still almost a full year in terms of
Speaker 6: the next court date being is it August fourth? So yes,
Speaker 6: I'm sure that he's got some some things to say.
Speaker 6: I think that he's not in a helpful way. I
Speaker 6: think that he's probably a really miserable, spiteful prick and
Speaker 6: would like to throw people under the bus. So that's fine,
Speaker 6: go ahead and do that. If I remember, and I
Speaker 6: do remember Josh Levy saying, you can say whatever you want.
Speaker 6: It's not necessarily going to keep you out of, you know,
Speaker 6: out of the death penalty. But we'll listen, we'll hear
Speaker 6: you out. So I'm sure that he's got a lot
Speaker 6: to say. I'm sure that he is giving up voluminous details.
Speaker 6: And unfortunately we know, even just from the internal investigation standpoint,
Speaker 6: that there are a lot of stories within the story,
Speaker 6: and I say that as delicately as possible, because none
Speaker 6: of what happened during the last few years of Sander
Speaker 6: Birchmore's life is in any way her fault or her
Speaker 6: shame to bear. And the details of there being other
Speaker 6: men besides Matthew Farewell and obviously the scumbags that are
Speaker 6: part of the civil lawsuit, it's really dark. It's really dark,
Speaker 6: burdensome stuff, and some of it the powers that be
Speaker 6: probably don't want all of the information to come out,
Speaker 6: but they also need to use the voluminous information to
Speaker 6: prepare for his defense and to prepare for the prosecution.
Speaker 6: So the kicking the can down the road. It's very
Speaker 6: frustrating for all of us. But it's also because of
Speaker 6: the complexity of the case. They were in agreement on
Speaker 6: this delay because of well a couple of things, the DNA,
Speaker 6: the death penalty attorney being added. So that's and I
Speaker 6: don't know how we didn't even get to touch upon that,
Speaker 6: but for there to be a lawyer put on the
Speaker 6: team that specializes in the death penalty is kind of
Speaker 6: big news as well. I'm sorry, no, no, no, that's
Speaker 6: all So that so that is what added. The most
Speaker 6: recent delay is to bring the death penalty attorney up
Speaker 6: to speed, and the prosecution agreed to that because there's
Speaker 6: a lot they like DJ you were saying about how
Speaker 6: you know you you can you only have one chance
Speaker 6: at hitting this one. Well, the government only has one
Speaker 6: chance at hitting this one, and they're not They're not
Speaker 6: going to f it up hopefully, and the defense attorneys
Speaker 6: definitely need to brace themselves for impact. And that's that's
Speaker 6: where a lot of the delays have come in.
Speaker 3: Well, two things, So constitutionally, Matt Farwell has a right
Speaker 3: to a speedy trial. So they could not have done
Speaker 3: this without the concurrence of his defense team. So that
Speaker 3: you should know that.
Speaker 2: Right away that the fact that we are laid is
Speaker 2: not the government in this case, it's Farewell. So that
Speaker 2: and his and his legal team, they're just happy to
Speaker 2: continue to like Suzanne was alluding to, to gather evidence
Speaker 2: to do whatever they need to do because it's his
Speaker 2: defense team. He has a right to a speedy trial constitutionally.
Speaker 3: Now, your friend, someone who's a friend of both Suzanne,
Speaker 3: Tricia and BIA is named Dennis Sweeney, and he wants
Speaker 3: to know if the me has if this is from
Speaker 3: a state commonwealth standpoint, if it's still characterized as a suicide,
Speaker 3: yes or no, and then we'll move on yes.
Speaker 6: And she has she has not budged. Yes, she has
Speaker 6: not budged.
Speaker 2: And Brandy is Brandy's fired up tonight. Uh, you know typically,
Speaker 2: I know that. I know you guys are surprised. You
Speaker 2: guys are very surprised that Brandy's fired up.
Speaker 3: I realized that this is kind of I would just
Speaker 3: grab ahold of your table. Yeah, a character, I know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: hello standing Stone seventeen seventy six. I heard the DA
Speaker 3: has not changed. That is correct, correct, But it would
Speaker 3: be the medical examiner. And her name was I put
Speaker 3: the entire name out there like four or five months,
Speaker 3: six months ago, Maria something she has like a oh
Speaker 3: Martina Mario del Cappo Martinez.
Speaker 6: That there might be a fourth name in there, but
Speaker 6: it's it's I think it's del Coppo Martine.
Speaker 2: I think you're right, Maria. Yeah, I even found it.
Speaker 3: It ended up someone gave me her LinkedIn and I
Speaker 3: and I found her LinkedIn. But yeah, I think it's
Speaker 3: something like Maria del Cappo Martinez. You should be ashamed
Speaker 3: of yourself Uh. And the reason you should, ma'am is because, uh,
Speaker 3: doctor Michael Boden, who's like about ninety years old at
Speaker 3: this point since the oj trial, still doing this type
Speaker 3: of work, came in and found the most fundamental of
Speaker 3: all things that could inculpate somebody that they've been that
Speaker 3: they're guilty of choking somebody and breaking the highway bone.
Speaker 3: And then doctor spock On behalf of the Department of Justice,
Speaker 3: came in and said the same thing. So obviously you
Speaker 3: are really not bad at your job, but you let
Speaker 3: them talk you into this, and now you're going to
Speaker 3: have to be saddled with this for the rest of
Speaker 3: your life, which really sucks for you because you.
Speaker 2: Played ball with him.
Speaker 3: Don't let these guys come in and tell you how
Speaker 3: to characterize someone's death. You write it how you see it.
Speaker 3: And then if the heat is too much, you know,
Speaker 3: get out of the kitchen and go into private practice,
Speaker 3: is all I can tell you. If not, they could
Speaker 3: likely get his parent, her siblings DNA. That's another great point,
Speaker 3: Terry says, he just got a new public defender from Tennessee.
Speaker 2: That's right, Terry, awesome. Dean College always got an applause.
Speaker 2: You guys are not applauding Dean College of Franklin, Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: It's been there since eighteen sixty five.
Speaker 6: Come on, we love Terry, we love Terry.
Speaker 4: We do love Terry and Dean College.
Speaker 6: Okay, in college, but we specifically love Terry.
Speaker 2: Terry, Okay, Terry and the Dean Bulldogs. All right.
Speaker 3: The most disturbing thing for me is the culture in silence.
Speaker 3: How many were compliant? Were there any to try to
Speaker 3: alert others? They were ignored? So many questions, Do you
Speaker 3: guys have any information that would say that police officers
Speaker 3: were trying to sound the alarm bell against these guys?
Speaker 3: Are you aware of any good And I'm sure there
Speaker 3: are good Stoton officers, so let me just put that
Speaker 3: out there for Stote PD. We're sure that there are
Speaker 3: really awesome, honest police officers at Stoton PD, But are
Speaker 3: you guys aware of any from that time frame?
Speaker 6: So I have been actually spending a lot of time
Speaker 6: on this topic to try and figure out where the
Speaker 6: wounds are and and maybe how to how to stop
Speaker 6: the bleeding. There are definitely some officers coming out of
Speaker 6: the case the internal investigation who have ended up not
Speaker 6: okay in some way if you will, you don't, You're
Speaker 6: not necessarily going to see a shouted from the rooftops.
Speaker 6: How many people transferred, how many retired, if anyone died
Speaker 6: by suicideicides? Yeah, whether anybody has succumbed to the perils
Speaker 6: of substance abuse and alcoholism subsequent to this investigation. There
Speaker 6: there's a lot going on there. And I have actually
Speaker 6: tried to talk to a town official or two to say,
Speaker 6: you know, what, if anything, are you doing in terms
Speaker 6: of crisis management and a task force to you know,
Speaker 6: to actually make sure everybody's mentally well so that they
Speaker 6: can move forward into protecting and serving in their community
Speaker 6: in a way that that is not dictated by the
Speaker 6: demons of this case, because that's going to be a
Speaker 6: really hard thing to overcome, whether you did everything by
Speaker 6: the book or not. And we know that some have
Speaker 6: not overcome it, that there have been losses, early retirements,
Speaker 6: substance abuse and alcoholism issues. It's just I'm not trying
Speaker 6: to denegrate the satin PD at all, but the wounds
Speaker 6: and the suffering is real. We want we want them
Speaker 6: to be healthy and okay to move forward, because there
Speaker 6: are plenty that just want to protect and serve absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that there's a lot.
Speaker 6: I really still have some problems if people have have
Speaker 6: left quite a few transfers and in definitely some untimely passings.
Speaker 3: Still waiting for the boxing video they claimed to have. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that boxing video they creamed to have with Enrique that
Speaker 3: they showed his family was obviously for the dummies out
Speaker 3: there was the one that he did boxing training and
Speaker 3: didn't get killed. So just in case you're wondering, newsflash,
Speaker 3: so they're going to show you, uh, you know, we're
Speaker 3: still waiting for uh, you know, keller HER's ring camera video.
Speaker 3: We're still waiting for an unedited sally Port video. That's
Speaker 3: probably where the video of of Garcia is probably in
Speaker 3: Fort Knox, Kentucky. In Kentucky, uh, in the securest vault
Speaker 3: they have like seventy five feet underground.
Speaker 6: Well, let me while we're talking about video, while it's
Speaker 6: freshing my mind in reference to Santa Birchmore's case, is
Speaker 6: just looking over my notes again before coming on. And
Speaker 6: with regard to the video, you know the infamous video
Speaker 6: with Matthew Farwell walking in and out. Wouldn't you know
Speaker 6: that there were a couple MSP and of course Colleen
Speaker 6: Crawford coming to gather this entryway video and go through it,
Speaker 6: and they were having problems finding the part with Matthew
Speaker 6: Farwell because because there was a thirteen minute timestamp issue
Speaker 6: with the security camera. And these are just these are
Speaker 6: just odd things that seemed to happen a lot out
Speaker 6: of Norfolk County DA's office. This thirteen thirteen minutes of
Speaker 6: different like we weren't able to see this, this creepy
Speaker 6: asshole walking in and out being sketchy with his hoodie
Speaker 6: like Higgins and where someplace where there were multiple you know, cameras,
Speaker 6: there's thirteen minutes missing or we didn't know who that was.
Speaker 6: What do you mean you didn't you know, there's just
Speaker 6: why did they sit on this information? Why were there
Speaker 6: thirteen minutes unaccounted for? It's just it's an anomaly that
Speaker 6: doesn't seem to plague every other law enforcement agency on
Speaker 6: the planet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, I mean well, I mean this, this happened this.
Speaker 2: There are other places where this has happened that these
Speaker 2: things and worse, but it's just been localized. They've had
Speaker 2: a light on themselves because they've had three cases in
Speaker 2: a row where someone was killed and they had tried
Speaker 2: to blame somebody else. And it's so it's and localized
Speaker 2: to one office.
Speaker 3: It's like, you're not like the Dirty thirty in the
Speaker 3: Bronx or the seven to five in you know, in
Speaker 3: Brooklyn or something I mean.
Speaker 2: Or the you know in Manhattan. Rather, this is like
Speaker 2: a little police department, you guys, and in the friggin
Speaker 2: DA's office in Canton. I mean, come on, man, you guys,
Speaker 2: I mean, you're you're you're saying look at me, look
Speaker 2: at me. Well we're looking at you. We're looking at you.
Speaker 3: All right, it's about time to get out of here.
Speaker 3: So I want to get some final thoughts. We'll certainly
Speaker 3: have you guys on again because I realized that you
Speaker 3: guys have hours of material on Sandra. We haven't done
Speaker 3: anything on Sandra in a while. Now, Karen Reid is freedom.
Speaker 3: I know that both of you were you know, we're
Speaker 3: full blast on that. You know, Suzanne Entrist, we're both
Speaker 3: you know. So now we can focus on Sandra, we
Speaker 3: can focus on Turtle Boy and him trying to you know,
Speaker 3: them trying to railroad in the same prosecutor. You know,
Speaker 3: what is this with these guys hiring, like they said,
Speaker 3: hiring special prosecutor Mark. I think Mark Betro said that
Speaker 3: what is it with his office hiring special prospcutters to
Speaker 3: prosecute these people? Why are you hiring Ken Mellow and Osgrove,
Speaker 3: you know, at hundreds of thousands of dollars when you
Speaker 3: have a young a group of what thirty young prosecutors
Speaker 3: or whatever the hell they have their why are they
Speaker 3: having to bring an outside help.
Speaker 2: For Aidan Carney? You know why?
Speaker 6: Well, with regard to these cases and the complexities that
Speaker 6: surround them, I'm going to say not specifically about Aidan,
Speaker 6: of course, but just about the co mingling of these cases.
Speaker 2: There is.
Speaker 6: Organized crime, sex, trafficking, besiege, awful, repugnant. DA's office that
Speaker 6: is that has a big, big fat toe in all
Speaker 6: of these cases, unlimited resources, which I guess not unlimited
Speaker 6: because they are literally coming out of all of our
Speaker 6: pockets on the screen except for you, DJ, because you're
Speaker 6: out of skate, but literally coming well, actually, you know
Speaker 6: there's federal.
Speaker 2: Too, but right, half a million dollars, right.
Speaker 6: But so that and there are obviously bad actors at
Speaker 6: we don't even know what the top is at the
Speaker 6: top of this heap of shit. There are obviously some
Speaker 6: bad actors with very very deep pockets.
Speaker 3: I just that's why I don't want to answer Derek's question. Derek,
Speaker 3: I don't know that they are bringing in a special
Speaker 3: prosecutor if you're asking to prosecute far Well, I mean
Speaker 3: there are there are special prosecutors already, for there were
Speaker 3: two Mellow and Cosgrove that are prosecuting Aiden. Cosgrove is
Speaker 3: a retired judge that they brought out a retirement and
Speaker 3: two hundred thousand dollars a year to prosecute Aiden h
Speaker 3: And in the case of Sandra, I mean, there's app
Speaker 3: absolutely no reason why you would bring in a special
Speaker 3: prosecutor when they have probably a cadre of extremely talented
Speaker 3: federal prosecutors that will eat him alive.
Speaker 2: With the evidence that they have, and he knows that.
Speaker 2: So with that final thoughts, Tricia, thanks for having me,
Speaker 2: Thank you. We're finally coming on.
Speaker 3: Yes, and we'll see you next time in Massachusetts when
Speaker 3: when I'm out there.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Via, Absolutely, we'll do another meal.
Speaker 4: Food.
Speaker 2: We're going to do it again.
Speaker 6: So many meals, so many meal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but hey, you know what ours is. You know,
Speaker 2: you just come and buy what you want to eat
Speaker 2: and buy the beer you want and there's no price.
Speaker 6: Tell we always have fun.
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say thank you Trisha and
Speaker 1: Suzanne for coming on. I think we definitely, like somebody
Speaker 1: wrote in the chat, we need to keep the pressure
Speaker 1: on and we need to we can't be silent, so
Speaker 1: let's keep talking about it.
Speaker 6: Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4: Trish, you did amazing.
Speaker 1: But Stee, I told you this is just like a FaceTime,
Speaker 1: so thank you for coming on. Yeah, we're just hanging out,
Speaker 1: So thanks again, ladies. We'll be in touch, and yeah,
Speaker 1: let's keep spreading the word.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: It was an honor to have you you guys on.
Speaker 3: And yeah, we're gonna have to save it for later.
Speaker 3: That's what Eddie Vedder is playing on the guitar right now.
Speaker 2: But we do need to do more Sandra birch Moore work,
Speaker 2: especially as as things start to heat up.
Speaker 3: And I'll like what Maria said here, we both did
Speaker 3: amazing true that, but yeah, we need to to do
Speaker 3: more work with Sandra birch Moore. That yeah, that she
Speaker 3: not be underrepresented. So whatever you guys can uncover and
Speaker 3: and help out this investigation. I'm sure we'll be appreciated,
Speaker 3: so on behalf of Tricia, Susanne and Bia. This is
Speaker 3: DJ saying peace out, one love and we will see
Speaker 3: you down the road.