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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by Law 22 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.159 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website Ford. 23 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:02.399 Loops. 24 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.680 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 25 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.799 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:26.159 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.879 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.560 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.439 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 31 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.599 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 32 00:01:54.719 --> 00:02:00.519 History and the authors that have written about them. Crime 33 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:06.040 is as horrific as mesmerizingly perplexing as a child's murder 34 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.560 at the hands of a parent. In most cases, the 35 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:14.599 perpetrator is the father. A veteran journalist explores five examples 36 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:19.360 of family annihilators in this troubling snapshot of American crime 37 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:25.360 twisted by the dark trajectory of machismo in economically stressful times. 38 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.199 Her research includes some fifty in depth interviews of victim's 39 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:33.599 friends and family, an examination of police files, and detailed 40 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:38.400 profiles of the researchers who track these killer dads. She 41 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:41.719 also presents expert's theories on the causes that drive men 42 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:46.080 to commit these heinous acts, ranging from economic pressures, the 43 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:50.159 stress of perceived failure and distorted egos, to the disturbing 44 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.800 statistics on abuse of adopted children by stepfathers and the 45 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.639 connection between murder and pregnancy. Finally, she discusses factors in 46 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:03.039 contemporary society that may foster such crimes and measures we 47 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.919 can and should be taking to prevent them. Welser researched 48 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:11.759 and often shocking Killers Dads provides disturbing insights into the 49 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.800 dark forces that can turn family dynamics into the worst 50 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.680 imaginable nightmare. The book that we're featuring this evening is 51 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:25.000 Killer Dads. The twisted drive that compels Fathers to murder 52 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:28.719 their own kids, by my special guest journalists and author 53 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:37.039 Mary Pappenfuss. I just got an email from Mary just 54 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.000 moments ago, and she the number I had given her, 55 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:42.759 she said didn't work, so there was some problem. I 56 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.719 resent the number in case I did somehow give her 57 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.000 the wrong original and number. So I guess she is 58 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.960 calling in now with that number, I imagine. So again 59 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.599 I apologize, ladies and gentlemen, for another technical error brought 60 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:01.319 to probably my heir her. But how about we just 61 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.840 blame blog talk radio for right now and wait for 62 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:14.319 Mary to come on here. She is. Good evening, Mary. 63 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:15.840 Thanks so much for having me. You actually gave me 64 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:18.560 a phone number with the numbers transposed, but being the 65 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:20.360 good sleuth that I am, I figured it out. 66 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:25.199 So did you just? I just sent you another email 67 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:26.040 a second ago. 68 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:27.680 So oh, right, right, and here it is. 69 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:33.319 Okay, Well, anyway, I apologize because I probably did give 70 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.920 you the wrong number, and I'm very sorry for that. 71 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.560 And welcome to the program. I had already done the introduction. 72 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.040 Now let me get this right. What is the proper 73 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:47.360 pronunciation of your last name, Mary Popenfoos? Okay, I wasn't 74 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.279 too far off at all. Okay, welcome to the program. 75 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:53.600 And like I said, we did the introduction, which is 76 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.600 basically the synopsis of your book. So what I'd like 77 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:03.160 to do first is again congratulate you on a very 78 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:07.879 unique and very very interesting and different book. I want 79 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.839 to congratulate you on that it's going to be a 80 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:12.279 treat for our audience, I think tonight. 81 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.160 Well, thanks so much. Yeah, it was kind of an 82 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.279 odd niche publication. I think publisher didn't quite know how 83 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.319 to market it because it's sort of a true crime 84 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:22.759 meet sociology book. 85 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.680 Yes, but there are more and more books like that 86 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.279 as people's I think what has happened over the years 87 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.199 of dedicated true crime readers is that people underestimate the 88 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:38.920 capacity for these people too. Year after year desire to 89 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.920 hear more, and so after you hear the actual rough 90 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.839 details of crimes, the next step is the why, right. 91 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.560 And that's exactly why I love true crime because I'm 92 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.399 really you know, I'm constantly searching for clues, something that 93 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.319 unlocks the behavior of these killers. You know, somebody who 94 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.920 didn't never picked up the tab for Pete. I don't know, 95 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:03.319 is that a clue. That's why I'm so interested in 96 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:05.839 the details. But most of your crime books don't go 97 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.920 much beyond simply the narrative of the crime. So I 98 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:10.240 wanted to try something different. 99 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:17.759 Now exactly now, we're not going to go exactly the 100 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:22.319 way the book has been laid out chronologically, But what 101 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.600 I wanted to do was that because this is probably 102 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:27.839 the most unique thing about your book is some of 103 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.319 the information that's been brought together. Like I mentioned to 104 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:34.000 you in an email, I had heard something about these 105 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:38.879 languor studies, but you put it all together and it's 106 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:43.160 amazing the context you put this in. So tell us 107 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.680 about the studies, who the researchers were, and tell us 108 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.240 basically how you came to these studies and then now 109 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.079 how you've used them as sort of a well a 110 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.519 basis for the start or the beginning of sort of 111 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:06.680 a connection evolutionary wise, between this violence that we're talking about, 112 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.519 the sevening killer dads, the twisted drives that compel fathers 113 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.040 to murder their own kid. In the synopsis, it really 114 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.600 doesn't hint at this, and I think this is one 115 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.279 of the most fascinating aspects of your book. So please 116 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:22.000 tell us about how you discovered this or when you 117 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.519 discover this, and tell us about these fascinating studies and 118 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.120 involving these languor is it monkeys or apes? Tell us 119 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:30.279 about the languors. 120 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.199 Yeah, that is actually probably my favorite part of the 121 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:36.360 book too, So it's interesting you were drawn to that. 122 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.759 I really the whole idea of killer dads has been 123 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.199 on my mind for like twenty years. I used to 124 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.000 work at the New York Post and the New York 125 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.759 Daily News as both a reporter and an editor, and 126 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.120 I think when you're an editor you see the amount 127 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.600 of crime that comes across your desk, especially domestic violence. 128 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.279 You can always do a domestic violence story that I 129 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:00.160 think we're largely blind to. And then years later later, 130 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.399 when I was in California, I covered the Scott Peterson trial, who, 131 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.079 as you know doubt remember, killed his very pregnant wife Lacy, 132 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.560 and I was again every day I went into that courtroom, 133 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.560 and I thought, how can this happen? I thought this 134 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:17.600 was against every conceivable instinct that you know, I thought. 135 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:19.879 I was convinced the guy was guilty from day one, 136 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:21.560 and I thought, he's going to go to death row 137 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:23.439 and he's never going to have another baby. How does 138 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.839 this happen? I thought? Is it something in us innately 139 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.680 or is it something we do to people in our society? 140 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.159 And I just started, you know, I started doing some 141 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.799 internet searches, and the things that the thing that really 142 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.519 resonated me with me were some of the theories by 143 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:43.000 the evolutionary psychologists who found actually reasons in our ancient 144 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:47.039 past and our ape like paths of relationships to the 145 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:49.440 people we love the most, of both our spouses and 146 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:53.840 our children. So I started looking into that and I've 147 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.519 been actually reading about it for years The most fascinating 148 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:03.039 study I found was the Langer monkeys in India, who 149 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:06.279 are very easily observable because they are the monkeys you 150 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.159 see in the city. So scientists have actually studied them 151 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:12.639 for probably since the beginning of the century, if not, 152 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.679 I mean the nineteen hundreds, probably even earlier. And something 153 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.440 that was noted about these langers that that because people 154 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.399 saw them. A lot people remark that they would see 155 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:27.519 apparently male langers killing baby monkeys and they couldn't understand 156 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:32.080 why it was happening, and a lot of scientists dismissed 157 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.480 it as you know, psychopathic monkeys or you know, a 158 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.039 barreant behavior. They couldn't come up with any theory. Now, 159 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.879 a woman in northern California, Sarah Herdi start was really 160 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:47.960 fascinated with us. It was something that really intrigued her 161 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:53.080 and she studied the langers over several years, and indeed 162 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:59.279 she saw this happen. She would see a new male 163 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.960 come into a and systematically kill the infants that were 164 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.960 already in the troop before he would mate with the females. 165 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.039 Now today this is known this is well known as 166 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.440 a male reproductive strategy that a like a male lion 167 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:17.919 comes into a pride and he instantly destroys the rival 168 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:22.279 male's infants, so the female becomes receptive to him and 169 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.399 he can raise his own DNA. Of course, he's not 170 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:29.480 thinking about DNA. He's just thinking about accessibility to the female. 171 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.679 But Sarah Hardy Hardy, this was like in the seventies. 172 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:35.039 She was the first one who actually came up with 173 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.279 this theory that this wasn't crazy, it was actually a 174 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:44.799 reproductive strategy that the Langer's practice in a way to 175 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.360 gain access to a female and that sort of monkey 176 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:54.639 immortality by continuing to pro create, and then following that 177 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.159 this was really a breakthrough that we've found this is 178 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.799 the case, and at least fifty different species know that. 179 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:04.759 And I think what I drew from this is that 180 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.320 the primal relationship for a male, at least in our 181 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:13.679 among our ape ancestors, is with the love interest, you know, 182 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.440 and the human case would be a wife or a lover, 183 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:21.480 because that's really the way that the male reproduces himself, 184 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.840 is the love interest. Whereas a female, because she has 185 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.399 many fewer children in her offspring, is very tied to 186 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.159 her children and has to protect those few offspring. If 187 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:37.960 her DNA is to survive beyond her lifespan. So Sarah 188 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.320 Hurdie reassured people after her first study that, you know, 189 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:44.879 don't worry. Men aren't out there, you know, wiping out 190 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.559 rival men's infants, so don't worry about it. But some 191 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:54.080 other researchers in Canada, Margot Wilson and Martin Daily, started thinking, well, 192 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.320 you know, this is kind of interesting. Are there other 193 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.759 kind of evolutionary drives behind male violence? Are behind you know, 194 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:06.759 what fuels violent familial relationships? And they said, well, let's 195 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:09.679 look at step children, because that's what Sarah Herdy has 196 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:13.159 found that stepchildren essentially are the ones that are wiped out. 197 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.919 So let's take a look at step children. And they 198 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.879 noted all the fairy tales in human culture across cultures 199 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.759 about evil stepparents, and in fact it's probably more frequently 200 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:30.759 the evil stepmother. But they theorized that because the mother 201 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:35.279 was telling the tales typically in cultures, that they were 202 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:40.080 warning their children if a stepmother is brought into your life, 203 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.440 be careful. It could be dangerous. So they began to 204 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:49.080 look at Canadian statistics and American statistics and they found 205 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:53.759 shockingly that having a stepparent was the number one risk 206 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.600 factor for both severe child abuse and murder by a parent. 207 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.879 They they weren't using the same sort of perspective that 208 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.600 Sarah Herd he was. Her strategy or her theory was 209 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:09.799 that male wanted access to the female. Their idea was 210 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.840 that another evolutionary drive is this specific bond between our 211 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.840 biological children, and that we will you know, if there's 212 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.399 a burning building, we're more likely to save our own 213 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.200 biological children over someone else's child. But in fact, I 214 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.159 think there is an issue of access to the female 215 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:30.840 because I think men can frequently they get jealous of 216 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:34.799 They can get jealous of stepchildren. You know, if there's 217 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.519 a if their a household is full of children from 218 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:41.080 another male and their new wife or their new lover 219 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.960 is paying too much attention to those kids, I think 220 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.320 they can get angry. And in fact, one of the 221 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.759 cases in my book, I think a man who cut 222 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.519 the throat of his stepchild talks about how in the 223 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.360 middle of an argument with his wife, the stepchild sort 224 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.799 of intervenes and he becomes so angry he takes her 225 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.799 and he kills her, and in his mind he sees 226 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.440 that stepchild is coming between himself and the woman he 227 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.960 calls his soulmate. So it's a fascinating theory because I 228 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:16.559 think it does give us kind of a platform to 229 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.320 analyze all kinds of relationships among humans. And you know, 230 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:23.240 now I see it everywhere, like you know, any kind 231 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:26.559 of Shakespeare play, or for me, I see, like you know, 232 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.240 women wearing burkas as part of this whole Langer thing 233 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:33.679 that men are very possessive of women and they want 234 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:41.159 them for themselves because it's very important for their DNA immortality. 235 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.559 Now, the other thing that I found interesting too is 236 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.759 that you also look, you said there was an initial 237 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.639 resistance to these theories that because of sort of the 238 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:59.320 division between creationists and again intelligent design or evolutionary or 239 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.879 people that believe Darwin and obviously people that don't so 240 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.200 and basically this idea that we evolve from apes is 241 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.639 not is pretty distasteful to a big portion of people 242 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.240 as well, And there was a certain again, certain bias 243 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.679 that kept people from looking at maybe what was now 244 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:21.879 seems kind of obvious that in every fifty species there's 245 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:26.840 this evolutionary drive and it involves killing their own children. 246 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.919 But what you included is not the dismissal, but you 247 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:36.200 discuss how poverty, drug abuse, and mental illness really weren't 248 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.279 as big a factors as maybe thought of before, or 249 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:43.360 at least these other things in society that we're supposed 250 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:47.360 to be key factors. So tell us a little just 251 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:48.159 a little bit about that. 252 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.440 You know, I think they are definitely exacerbating factors, but 253 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.240 I think there is sort of a sort of an 254 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.320 essential human nature that, you know, we just have to 255 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.799 be alert to it. And certainly, you know, I feel 256 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:03.919 a little bad because I don't mean to be attacking men, 257 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.120 and you know, like my husband, never in a million 258 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:08.399 years would I ever worry about him hurting one of 259 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:12.320 my children. But I think there's there is a sort 260 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:16.480 of proclivity that we have. And some of these researchers 261 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:18.159 I spoke to said, you know, at one point it 262 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.559 was just no one would ever accept the fact that 263 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.639 there is an essential human nature, that we're all free 264 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:28.320 and independent and we create our natures. But I think 265 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.919 there is, and I think we to protect children in 266 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:33.480 their homes, I think we have to be alert to 267 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.200 some of that. And in a larger sense, sometimes I 268 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.080 think that all of society has this sort of proclivity, 269 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.519 like there's this sort of acceptance of a certain amount 270 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:48.000 of violence that that that we think, well, you know, 271 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:49.720 some that are going to be violent, what can we 272 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.279 do about it? Rather than saying this violence is unacceptable? 273 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.639 Or you know these rapes going on in India now there, 274 00:16:55.799 --> 00:17:00.360 you know, some cities are talking about banning lingerie lays 275 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.079 and windows. You know, instead of saying violence is unacceptable, 276 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.559 we're saying men are going to be violent and we 277 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.960 have to figure out how not to provoke them. So, 278 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.079 in a sense, I think we're all sort of you know, 279 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.480 we're sort of in the thrall of this alpha male 280 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:20.839 that you know that violence is acceptable. I think today, 281 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.720 I think, whether whether people were creationists or not, or 282 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.039 intelligent design, I think it was all a little It 283 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.839 was distasteful to everyone to think that we were as 284 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:36.799 brutish as we may have been tainted by these evolutionary psychologists. 285 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.920 But today it's interesting whenever I talk to people and 286 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.519 I mentioned a stepchild killing, people say, oh, well, a stepchild. 287 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.759 So it's it's almost as you said, it seems so 288 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.519 obvious to people now, but it was unheard of at 289 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.880 that point. I think some of these same evolutionary psychologists 290 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:58.240 since though, have also said that we also have a 291 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:05.240 capacity for great co operation and intelligence that can overcome 292 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.759 some of these things. You know, I'm embarrassed to say now. 293 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.200 I'm a child of the sixties, So I used to 294 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.559 believe that there were there was no difference between men 295 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.400 and women other than physical, or that if there were, 296 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.880 we had no idea because we had been so tainted 297 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.480 by social expectations. And now I'm completely convinced that we're 298 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:29.240 practically different species. And I think society could be our 299 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.759 way to grow and evolve further, and as long as 300 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.519 we're alert to some of these tendencies, that we can 301 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.400 change things and make things for the better and protect 302 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.519 the most vulnerable in our society. You know, a six 303 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.279 month old baby who's killed by a father. We have 304 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.920 to we have to start taking over, taking charge from 305 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.079 that sort of alpha male mindset. 306 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.880 Well, I you know, I agree with everything you're saying, 307 00:18:57.880 --> 00:18:59.920 but you also do have when you say that men. 308 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.160 Hello, it is Ryan. 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We're going to 330 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:00.039 my eighteen plus terms and conditioned to plue what's. 331 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.039 And then women seem to be of different different well 332 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.240 you know these radically different species, but you can also 333 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.680 look within men these days, there's it is as different 334 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:14.720 as the I don't know, the lion, and the and 335 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.759 the housecat in terms of one is domesticated, understands it 336 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:20.920 never been, has never been violent in their whole life. 337 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.880 It doesn't I don't even know, has a capacity for 338 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:28.119 it in terms of innately where another person, like you say, 339 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.200 the alpha male. If you ever watch a hockey game, 340 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.359 and you know Canadians are supposed to be so meek 341 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.759 and mild and polite, if you watch a hockey game 342 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.079 and they take their five year olds to the hockey 343 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.279 game watching people get punched out, so violence, there's a 344 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.880 certain level of violence in sport, and of course sport 345 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:46.519 is celebrated, and then you get the phenomenon of OJ 346 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.920 sort of an OJ Simpson not realizing you know. You know, 347 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.119 so I agree with you with that. But at the 348 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.200 same time, like you say, we did, man has this 349 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.519 great capacity, but I don't think it's a far cry 350 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.720 from the savagery and barbarism that we see from men, 351 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:09.920 especially today and in the past. So there have been 352 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.200 a lot of studies as well that when you look 353 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.079 at the overwhelming ability of men to murder versus women. 354 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:22.079 Then I don't think you have to apologize for saying, jeez, 355 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:24.319 I'm beaten up on men here when we talk about violence. 356 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.039 Now, I know, but there are I mean, you know, 357 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.400 some of these researchers are males, who are you know, 358 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:32.880 they're appalled by it. And I don't know there's but 359 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:34.559 you know, there's been a viral video going around with 360 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.200 John Patrick Stewart, who the actor, a British actor who 361 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.519 grew up with a very abusive father, and he did 362 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:43.720 something very moving. He said, men, if you know, if 363 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.319 you want to stop violence, it's up to us. And 364 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.039 now I found that very moving. You know. Part of 365 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.559 the reason I focused on men is because there are 366 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.559 more of a black box to me. I think, you know, 367 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.920 women do kill. They tend to kill when they're I 368 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.480 think in the throes of postpartum depression, or they feel wrapped, 369 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.400 or you know, of course there's you know, mental illness cases. 370 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.279 But something that struck me about men as this sort 371 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.799 of cold calculated planning to kill. And there's a lot 372 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.319 of murder of biological children to punish the you know, 373 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.160 the lover or the woman who is divorcing. And I 374 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:23.839 just can't understand that. I can't understand, you know, like 375 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.519 losing control and wanting to kill or being in such 376 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.519 a rage that I could hurt someone. So I decided 377 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:32.759 to study that. But you know you do have to. 378 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.640 I mean it is I think, you know, we have 379 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.079 brains that we can override our emotions sometimes, I hope. 380 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.759 Yeah. What you do is a great job with this 381 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:47.480 book is that you do take very different cases as 382 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:50.319 your case studies. And it was interesting that you did 383 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:54.799 cover the case the lace, the Scott Peterson case, and 384 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.559 then you do say that this is a again a 385 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.400 sort of an extreme If there is an extreme example 386 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.960 of a killer dad, it's this one. And let's first 387 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:08.000 talk about Scott Peterson and why you chose this case 388 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.240 and what you want the audience or the reader to 389 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.480 really what you're trying to convey with this particular case study, 390 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:18.960 and then we'll go to another case that's like say James, 391 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:22.400 which is much much different. So let's start off with 392 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:27.359 Scott Peterson and the case itself. For those internationally and 393 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.079 our fans everywhere, outline the case a little bit because 394 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:35.039 it's particularly bad when you talk about the timing of 395 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:39.279 it and his behavior and the affair, and so let's 396 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.920 get into how bad Scott Peterson and what his case 397 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.680 particularly shows in this examination of killer dads. 398 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.720 Well, I definitely picked him because the case just sort 399 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:53.480 of riveted the nation, and also because I was assigned 400 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:58.400 to it. I sat in court every single day, and 401 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.440