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Speaker 1: So let's go kick a little ass. What what do

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you think the Democrats need to do right now? You

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got you got ass, donkey.

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Speaker 2: I get it. I've heard better jokes. I would say one. Well,

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I don't know where do you come down. It's like

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there's there's the debate right now where it's like, you know,

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they need to moderate and they should therefore adopt moderate policies.

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Or is it that they need to show their sort

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of you know, generationally changing or maybe they don't need

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to do anything at all because you know it's always

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going to be a referendum in the in the midterms,

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and look at these special election result results are doing great.

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I kind of jump between a few of those. And

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before I give you my answer, I want to hear yours.

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Speaker 1: So uh, if you know anything about me, uh and

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the first time we've met, right, sorry about I'm going

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to I'm going to redefine the edge, uh, and I'm

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going to do everything I can to cut you with it.

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And that's that's what the Democrats do. Not have a

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propensity towards a political fight.

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Speaker 2: So you just say slash say, I say, look.

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Speaker 1: What I did in when I was a county chairman,

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out outgunned here in Prince George's county fifty eight thousand

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Republicans to eight hundred thousand citizens.

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Speaker 2: Right, what I did is.

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Speaker 1: State party chairman, outgunned two to one in democratic registration.

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Yet I got a governor elected twenty in two thousand

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and two that happened to be on the ballot. That

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may have helped, may not have helped. But we had

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a plan, and the plan was to fight, right, was

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to fight, to lean into the opposition. When I got

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to the R and C, it was no different. Outnumbered, outgunned,

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a seventy percent plus approval for Barack Obama. Our brand

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was in the toilet, were hemorrhaging voters and money. I

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had a lot of internal fighting. You know, the political

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establishment didn't like me or trust me, even though they

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knew me. Probably that's why they didn't like me or

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trust me. And I was not I was not a

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person who play well with others.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me talk, let's let's stop there everything, because

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this is this is the most interesting parallel, which is

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two thousand and nine and twenty five, right, like is

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there is this what were you see like a lot

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of discontent among Democrats, the party is not very popular.

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But if I remember in two thousand and nine, their

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public party wasn't very popular either. Nope, and there's a

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lot of discontent. The Tea Party was on the rise,

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and there's a lot of questions about whether they were

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going to fumble the ball because of it, right, and

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it turned out it was like obviously historic election for

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the party. I'm I'm kind of interesting towards this being

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similar to that. But maybe that was because of Obamacare

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and that was a unique situation, or maybe not.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but you can have Obamacare, but if you

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don't define what Obamacare means to people, if you don't,

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if you don't look it's a parallel thing. I've got

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to know what we're going for, what we're doing, and

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I've got to be able to convince my team this

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is the way to go, and that was very hard

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to do. I had a lot of people In January

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of twenty ten, Karl Rover I'll never forget the op

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ed he did in the Wall Street Journal basically, lighten

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my ass up. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm

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an awful chairman. We'd be lucky if we get thirty

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seats out of this election. Well, we got sixty three, bitch, right,

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and I picked up almost one thousand.

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Speaker 2: Ever have you ever brought that up to him directly? Oh?

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Speaker 1: He and I have laughed about it. Yeah, Carl's a

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good guy. I mean, you know, I've got no beef

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of Carls with me. But but you know a thousand

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state legislative races. You know how we got those? I

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focused on and no one in the party focusto winning

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state legislative races. Right, you want to change the game,

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change the game where the game is changed? How do

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you you know if you want the how do you

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how do you get control of the courts, congressional districts.

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Speaker 2: How do you get control of congressional districts?

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Speaker 1: You draw the lines, and who draws the lines.

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Speaker 2: Say, legislatures? There you go. Well, there's some state supreme

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courts that can have some say but yes, I hear you.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm just saying is you've got to have

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You've got to have a forward looking strategy. Now, look,

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you can't. You can't account for every outcome and the

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behavior of every politician and gets elected. Sure, I mean

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we're all sitting here looking at some of the folks

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that we've worked with over the years ago. Who the

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hell is that person in the land of Trump. But

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the reality of it is, that's for me, Sam, the

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way the Democrats need to sort of look at this

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is what's the multi layered strategy here?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Number one? But then what is your messaging? What was

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my messaging in twenty ten? Fire Pelosi?

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Speaker 2: Right right?

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Speaker 1: You want your garbage picked up? Fire Pelosi? You want

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to change the Congress? Fire Pelosi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And see that's where it might be different. I

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don't think Mike Johnson is that type. I mean, this

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is not a Mike Johnson election, right, this is Donald

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Trump the.

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Speaker 1: Other things that will substitute for Mike Johnson, right right,

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you know, I mean I I My sense is that.

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Speaker 2: The question was where do Democrats stand and what should

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they do? I think honestly they need to find one

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or two things which resonate with the public. And it

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could be honestly, could be the corruption, right like that

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could be it it worked, that's what works for them

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in six it was a corruption thing and then kind

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of just hammer away. And yes, there's gonna be divisions

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in the party over like ideology and philosophy and what

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policies to emphasize. But if you can say Donald Trump

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is corrupt and Donald Trump has not than anything to

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make your life meaningfully better with costs, So I think

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that's a winning formula.

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Speaker 1: That works better than a conversation around birthright citizenship in

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monument's clause.

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Speaker 2: Except yes, I mean yes it does. Now they the

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monument's clause does get into the corruption stuff. But an

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argument over birth rate, here's the thing I think you

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can argue. I think you can argue the morality of

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the immigration stuff, totally fine. I think what you say

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is I'm not I'm not a strategist, so so no

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one should be listening to me, be like that's the guy. Now,

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just I'm just throwing out an idea here. But the

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birthright citizenship, the deportation stuff, that's a form of corruption,

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all right. It's a corruption against the constitution. And if

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you can frame it like that, then you can kind

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of sweep it into one.

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Speaker 1: What about the what about the economy? I've been saying

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for a number of months. I mean, you know, I

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was I'm minored in economics, and so I know a

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little bit of our numbers work and how they flow.

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And I've been saying for a few months, along with

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a few other folks, that the impact of what Trump

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has done, even though he's trying to clean up on

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all nine through twenty right now, right, has already been

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set in motion and will be realized at the end

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of this month beginning of June, and it's starting to

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come into focus. We'll see a lot of folks, how

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does the economic piece play that messaging?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean, look, what is it. It's May fourteenth,

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twenty twenty five. We have so much time. We have

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so much time, so we don't just we just don't

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know where we're going to be economically. But let's say

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in theory the elections were in like six months, then yeah,

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I think it would. I think there's a lot to

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run on here. If you're a Democrats, it's you know,

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it's all self inflicted damage that he's created. You can

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easily say we handed him and helped protest, but like,

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we handed him a pretty good economy with low inflation,

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high low unemployment GDP moving in the direction, and he

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went and took a hammer to it. And that's factually true.

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Like the tariffs were self inflicted. The fact that he

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had to reverse on them is not an act of

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negotiating genius is not like the art of the yell.

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It's just he admitted he was wrong, and you know,

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going out and firing you know, tens of thousands of workers,

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and these are yes, they're government in place, but they're

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also you know, blue collar people who man your parks,

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who work in and around government buildings, who research diseases

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and make sure your water is clean and all that

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stuff that matters. Like he fired them, right, and that

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has a real impact. I mean, like you can say

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that the economy is not in a better spot despite

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what he wants to say, and he promised you fix

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it on day one, and does it feel fixed to you?

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And you can look at the consumer set sentiments like

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the University of Michigan Consumer sentiment data. Then people don't

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think the economy is going in right direction. They're fearful

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about where the economy is going. So again, we're very

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very very very very far away. We don't know what

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the economy is going to look like in a year

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from now, but there is fodder for Democrats here for sure.

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Speaker 1: So before I let you go, I want to have

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a little fun with you.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned her.

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Speaker 1: A little bit earlier, a little Laura Lumer. You guys

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had a little little Twitter Twitter back and forth.

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Speaker 2: You Yeah, what was that about? What I was going

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to ask you?

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Speaker 1: Bro?

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Speaker 2: What that? Well? So I don't think she went after me.

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I didn't get lumored. Let's just be I want to

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be very You did.

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Speaker 1: Not get lumured.

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Speaker 2: You're just not. So what's happening here is this is

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the backstory Will Summer, who.

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Speaker 1: Asked the question, is Willa Lumer for sale?

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Speaker 2: Okay? I was posting an article we reported from Will

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Summer about whether or not Laura Lumer's for sale? And

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by that we mean there's accusations flying around that she's

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running some sort of payola scheme because suddenly she's tweeting

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about Venezuelan oil, Like, where did that come from? I

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haven't really tweeted about that ever, And this was not

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an accusation I made. Kaylee Means, a top Robert F.

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Kennedy advisor whose sister is being nominated for surgeon General,

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has publicly accused Laura Lumer of attacking his sister because

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she's paid for by someone He hasn't specified, but she

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has been pretty viciously attacking Casey means his sister, and

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so Lumer denied it to Will Summer. She says she's

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not paid for her work. She's just out there doing

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the vetting that everyone needs to do. But this is

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like getting a lot of buzz in maga circles. And

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Will noticed it, and he did the reporting. And then

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I tweeted the article innocently enough, as a good editor does,

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trying to promote the work of his reporters, and I

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got lumored. I got lumered for it. It was so funny.

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Speaker 1: It it's just the way, you know, she just sort

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of came at it, and you're like.

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Speaker 2: Typically and typically understated fashion, Yes.

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Speaker 1: Right, exactly exactly, you know, your misogynistic I you know what,

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I can't have my own companies. It's just but it

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does matter who pays you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, if you're paid for And this is the other thing, though,

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there's like a pretty lengthy history now people in this

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sphere getting paid to post, and so there's not like

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it's not this is like non contextualized.

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Speaker 1: I thought she protested a bit too much and went on,

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had had to explain way too much and just sort

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of couch it. And when you look you may.

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Speaker 2: Have read similarly to some people here.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was like, okay, all right, see in any

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other world did to go please and move on. But no,

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you got to go into the whole. If you can't

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beat them, make them join, I mean, make them like

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you quotes. I'm like, please spare me, all right. Well,

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Sam Stein, you keep doing you boo.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, mister chairman, Thank you very much. I'll always

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do it.

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Speaker 1: Well, my friend, take care.