Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
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Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: It is for Eve Trudeau. The blood was all business.
Speaker 2: An assassin for the Hell's Angels in the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 2: Trudeau was known as Apache, the Mad Bumper, and the
Speaker 2: Mad Bomber. As a contract killer, he did his job
Speaker 2: so well that the biker sometimes lent him out to
Speaker 2: other organized crime empires in Montreal, including the East End
Speaker 2: French gangs led by the deadly Dubois Brothers and the
Speaker 2: upstart Irish mafia in the West End. Eve Trudeau remains
Speaker 2: one of Canada's most prolific serial killers. When he narrowly
Speaker 2: missed being assassinated because he was in drug rehab, he
Speaker 2: turned government informant and confessed to his crimes, which included
Speaker 2: killing forty three people. But as a witness, Trudeau was
Speaker 2: a disaster, and the sweetheart deal he got with little
Speaker 2: jail time for his murders caused public outrage. Award winning
Speaker 2: writers Julian Cheer and Lisa Fierman tell the incredible story
Speaker 2: of how this assassin escaped the police and the justice
Speaker 2: system for over a decade. A compelling and revealing account
Speaker 2: of corruption, in competence and murder. Hit Man is based
Speaker 2: on extensive research and exclusive new interviews with police, lawyers
Speaker 2: and bikers who knew Eve Apache Trudeau. The book that
Speaker 2: we were featuring this evening is Hitman, The Untold Story
Speaker 2: of Canada's Deadliest Assassin. With my special guests, journalists and
Speaker 2: authors Julian Cher and Lisa Fiterman. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 2: and thank you very much for this interview. Julian Cher
Speaker 2: and Lisa Fiterman.
Speaker 3: Great to be here.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yes, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this newest book
Speaker 2: between you both co authored, hit Man.
Speaker 3: Thanks. It's been a national bestseller here in Canada and
Speaker 3: it's obviously available in the States. We've been journalists for many,
Speaker 3: many years, but this was a fun and exciting book
Speaker 3: to write.
Speaker 2: Tell us about the origins of this book. What brought
Speaker 2: you to this story. You say that you have a
Speaker 2: background in organized crime and writing about organized crime. But
Speaker 2: tell us about just the origins of this book project itself.
Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, I've been an investigative journalist for thirty forty years,
Speaker 3: written many books, including at least two books on the
Speaker 3: Hell's Angels. I went to California to interview the Hell's
Speaker 3: Angels leaders there for books that I wrote called Angels
Speaker 3: of Death, and I've done documentaries. You know, as an
Speaker 3: investigative journalist, I think we're both interested in kind of
Speaker 3: the dark mirror, you know, the rocks, what's hiding under
Speaker 3: the rocks in our society. And the Hell's Angels always
Speaker 3: fascinated me because unlike the Mafia or MS thirteen, they
Speaker 3: have a very elaborate pr machine, right, they have web
Speaker 3: pages and their trademarked and they have this whole mythology.
Speaker 3: So that's why I've covered them for so long. And
Speaker 3: this book that I co wrote with my wife Lisa,
Speaker 3: was a chance to go back to the origin story.
Speaker 3: How did the Hell's Angels set up here in Canada,
Speaker 3: which became an important base for the Hell's Angels. Why
Speaker 3: did they come here and what were the consequences. So
Speaker 3: that's why we decided to do a hit man together.
Speaker 4: It was it was strange. Julian's agent called him to
Speaker 4: ask if he would do another biker book and he
Speaker 4: said no straight out, and then he began to think
Speaker 4: it would be fun to do a book with me.
Speaker 4: And I had covered all the biker trials in Quebec
Speaker 4: and including the big Mega trials and the first trial
Speaker 4: of Maurice mon Bouche, who was a biker leader who
Speaker 4: was convicted of killing two prison guards. So it just
Speaker 4: seemed to be an intro testing thing to do. Our
Speaker 4: agents both told us that this isn't a good idea,
Speaker 4: you know, because they'd seen partnerships break up because of
Speaker 4: working together. And we said we'll take the chance, and
Speaker 4: we had a lot of fun doing it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's get to the Eve Trudeau and you say
Speaker 5: he had been the founder of the first Hell's Angels
Speaker 5: chapter in Quebec and then became a hit man for
Speaker 5: the outlaw bikers and for fifteen years he had killed
Speaker 5: in the shadows, unknown and undetected by police. Let's talk
Speaker 5: about Eve Trudeau and Popeye's motorcycle gang and his early
Speaker 5: development in organized crime.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a fascinating character. Young boy grows up in
Speaker 3: Quebec in the fifties and sixties. Unlike many biker leaders
Speaker 3: that I've profiled, he doesn't fit the stereotype, right, He's
Speaker 3: not there's no evidence of an abused family, poverty, early drugs,
Speaker 3: or criminal records that you often see with a lot
Speaker 3: of bikers. Seems to be a you know, perfectly normal kid.
Speaker 3: But he gets attracted to one of the many biker
Speaker 3: groups circulating in Quebec as in the States in the
Speaker 3: sixties and seventies. They were called the Popeyes, kind of
Speaker 3: after you know Popeye, the Sailor Man. Very violent, not
Speaker 3: very structured or organized. They had gray jackets, but they
Speaker 3: were among the most violent biker gangs. And he was
Speaker 3: I think a bit of an outsider, right, He.
Speaker 4: Was a bit of an outsider. He was, you know,
Speaker 4: small and quiet. But I'd also like to point out
Speaker 4: that in Quebec, you know, we were just coming out
Speaker 4: of what was called the Great Darkness. The Catholic Church
Speaker 4: held huge sway here and the government of the day
Speaker 4: was aligned with them. So when that fell, you had
Speaker 4: this kind of counterculture movement rise out of that, and
Speaker 4: part of that was this proliferation of biker gangs throughout
Speaker 4: the province with no rhyme or reason except to be
Speaker 4: counterculture and druggies and everything that your parents really hated
Speaker 4: for you to be.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and Trudeau didn't. You don't see those early
Speaker 3: signs of a psychopathic killer.
Speaker 1: He was known.
Speaker 3: He didn't even have a bike at the beginning of motorbike.
Speaker 3: He loved doing wheeli's on his motorcycle. The one thing
Speaker 3: that was interesting, if you're going to eventually develop into
Speaker 3: one of the world's most prolific serial killers for organized crime,
Speaker 3: it's a good thing as a young man to land
Speaker 3: the job at an explosive factory. And that's what he did.
Speaker 3: He worked at a company called CIL that made explosives
Speaker 3: for the army and the police, so that would serve
Speaker 3: him well in the future. Now, what happens in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy seven, Trudeau has already committed his first kill. Nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy he's working for the Popeyes and a loser steals
Speaker 3: one of their bikes. Not a good thing to do
Speaker 3: with a motorcycle gang. So they send this young wiry guy,
Speaker 3: Eve Trudeau out to kind of meet out some punishment
Speaker 3: and return the bike, and to some degree, possibly by accident,
Speaker 3: he lands up killing the guy, right, This wasn't his intention,
Speaker 3: but he begins to realize he's pretty good at this
Speaker 3: and this is his ticket to success. You know, you're
Speaker 3: in a biker gang. It's a business, right, you either
Speaker 3: have to be good at extortion or drug smuggling. And
Speaker 3: Trudeau discovered he was pretty good at killing. So he
Speaker 3: began to knock off some of the enemies of the Popeyes.
Speaker 3: And in nineteen seventy seven, Sonny Barger and the Hell's
Speaker 3: Angels based in California. They've been active in California in
Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties. They start expanding throughout the States
Speaker 3: and they decide to plant a flag in Canada. And
Speaker 3: of all the places to come, they come to Montreal,
Speaker 3: and of all the clubs to patch over, you know,
Speaker 3: to take over, absorb and make them the Hell's Angels,
Speaker 3: they choose the Popeyes.
Speaker 2: And so in.
Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy seven, Eve Trudeau, this young killer, becomes one
Speaker 3: of the founding members of the Hell's Angels in Quebec.
Speaker 2: Now tell us about Quebec's unique geographical position in North
Speaker 2: America and its relation to the top crime family Organized
Speaker 2: crime families in America. Tell us about the importance of
Speaker 2: Quebec in terms of the drug business and organized crime
Speaker 2: in North America.
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, Americans who know Canada that's the largest
Speaker 3: undefended border, and that means for now anyways, that's right,
Speaker 3: until we become the fifty first state, as some people
Speaker 3: might want, but it means that, you know, travel is
Speaker 3: pretty easy between the two countries for tourists, for business,
Speaker 3: but also for drugs and guns. Montreal is only an
Speaker 3: hour and a half drive to the border. It's an
Speaker 3: hour flight to New York and so it's very close
Speaker 3: to the American border. It's also a huge port city,
Speaker 3: and that port brings in ships from Europe and of
Speaker 3: course from Latin and Central America. The port for many
Speaker 3: years was controlled by organized crime, particularly the Irish mafia.
Speaker 3: They were called the West End Gang, and so Montreal
Speaker 3: also had a long history as kind of sinn city.
Speaker 3: Some American students of history, right, remember in the twenties
Speaker 3: and thirties, I mean Irving Berlin, right that the Broadway
Speaker 3: songwriter had a song about Hello, party, Let's go to Montreal.
Speaker 3: Because there was prohibition in the in the United States,
Speaker 3: and so people came to Montreal to Party. In the
Speaker 3: fifties it was gangsters and mafias, and then we had
Speaker 3: the Italian mafia set up in Montreal. They became known
Speaker 3: as the Sixth Family, you know, the Five Families in
Speaker 3: New York. Well, the Montreal Mafia became so powerful they
Speaker 3: were seen as both allies and competitors to the New
Speaker 3: York Mafia. So Montreal has always been an important crime center,
Speaker 3: and it's where the Hell's Angels became the most powerful
Speaker 3: and influential. Just to give you some perspective, there are
Speaker 3: about maybe a thousand and members of the Hell's Angels
Speaker 3: in America, tens of thousands around the world. Canada, which
Speaker 3: has like one tenth the population, has five hundred Hells Angels,
Speaker 3: you know, percentage wise, it's one of the biggest centers
Speaker 3: of the Hell's Angels in the world. And more importantly,
Speaker 3: in America, the Hell's Angels have to compete with the Bandidos,
Speaker 3: the Outlaws, the Pagans. They're not necessarily even the largest
Speaker 3: outlaw motorcycle gang. Well, in Canada, the Hell's Angels are
Speaker 3: not just the largest, they're the only one. They have
Speaker 3: a complete monopoly here, which they don't have in Europe.
Speaker 3: Or Australia. So it just shows how powerful Montreal is
Speaker 3: as a crime capital.
Speaker 4: And they're very strong in all the port cities in Vancouver,
Speaker 4: in Halifax, and you're in Montreal.
Speaker 2: So how does Ive Trudeau become a hit man for
Speaker 2: the Hell's Angels? You write that he was so good
Speaker 2: at killing that other gangs like the Dubois Gang Dubois
Speaker 2: Brothers in Montreal hired him out for assignments. Tell us
Speaker 2: about the methods of his killing and also some of
Speaker 2: the hires that led to him becoming an assassin for
Speaker 2: the Hell's Angels.
Speaker 3: So that's a good question. So look, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 3: he's already been killing for seven years for the Popeyes.
Speaker 3: But what's important for people to understand is is groups
Speaker 3: like the Popeyes and listeners might know of small motorcycle gangs.
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about legal groups. You know, I used
Speaker 3: to ride a motorcycle. There are many weekend clubs of
Speaker 3: people out motorcycling, but outlaw gangs. People probably know of
Speaker 3: small gangs in their downs or neighborhoods. But the Popeyes
Speaker 3: were just in Quebec, right, They were a small group.
Speaker 3: They had no international connections. The Hill's Angels come in
Speaker 3: in ninety seventy seven, watch over the Popeyes. Suddenly Ef Trudeau.
Speaker 3: That's like running a little corner store. And then suddenly
Speaker 3: you've got a McDonald's franchise, right, and you have this
Speaker 3: international connection, this international stature, but you also have international enemies,
Speaker 3: and so the Hell's Angels would systematically want to take
Speaker 3: over or wipe out their competition, notably a group called
Speaker 3: the Outlaws, but other motorcycle gangs. So suddenly Ef Trudeau,
Speaker 3: who's done the occasional hit for the Popeyes, becomes the
Speaker 3: go to man as the Hell's Angels. Keep in mind, too,
Speaker 3: we're in the late seventies early eighties. What comes into
Speaker 3: place suddenly cocaine. Right before we were talking about marijuana
Speaker 3: and other drugs, but cocaine hugely profitable, hugely popular, and
Speaker 3: so to maintain this monopoly of cocaine, the Hall's Angels
Speaker 3: need Trudeau to systematically wipe out rivals and other gangs
Speaker 3: and even their own members, people who have gone astray.
Speaker 3: And so he begins to do systematic killings. But a
Speaker 3: lot of what will happen will also be innocents who
Speaker 3: get caught in the crossfire.
Speaker 4: And we're talking girlfriends, we're talking mothers, we're talking a
Speaker 4: guy who he thought was his target and who he
Speaker 4: sawt multiple times in the back. It was the wrong person.
Speaker 4: So it was just one killing after another. And well,
Speaker 4: he began as the accidental assassin in a way when
Speaker 4: he killed his first victim. It became his bread and butter,
Speaker 4: his way to acceptance, his way to being one of
Speaker 4: the guys, and in the end, to supporting his drug habit.
Speaker 2: When you talk of this drug habit, tell us about
Speaker 2: how extensive this drug habit is and what is the
Speaker 2: growing attitude among some of the bikers and Hell's Angels
Speaker 2: in Montreal regarding Trudeau's drug habit or any of the
Speaker 2: other biker's drug habit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. So you know, it's important to realize
Speaker 3: that first and foremost, the Hell's Angels became a business,
Speaker 3: became an organized crime organization. You know, in the fifties
Speaker 3: and sixties, it was fun in games, a lot of
Speaker 3: drug sex and rock and roll. What, of course happens
Speaker 3: is you know, Sunny Barger, the international leader of the
Speaker 3: Hell's Angels, says openly in his book in the seventies,
Speaker 3: it was the gangster era, right, and he talks about
Speaker 3: the importance of cocaine, and for the Hell's Angels it
Speaker 3: was a business making money. What they didn't want were
Speaker 3: their own members becoming what was called sniffers. Right. You
Speaker 3: were bringing in this cocaine from the cartels, from the
Speaker 3: mafia internationally, you were distributing in the streets. You wanted
Speaker 3: to make money selling it. You didn't want to lose
Speaker 3: money putting it up your nose. So there was tension
Speaker 3: when members like Ef Trudeau, who developed quite a cocaine habit,
Speaker 3: there was tension with the other bikers who wanted to
Speaker 3: become more and more businessmen involved in cocaine trafficking. Now
Speaker 3: to step back a bit, as Trudeau is developing his
Speaker 3: cocaine habit more and more, he needs contracts for killing
Speaker 3: to get the money so that he could sustain his
Speaker 3: cocaine habit. But he's so prolific. What the Hell's Angels
Speaker 3: start doing, as we talk mentioned before, is they start
Speaker 3: farming him out, you know, almost like in the classified
Speaker 3: ads to other gangs. There's a French gang called the
Speaker 3: Dubois Brothers that he does some killings for, but the
Speaker 3: biggest group he starts working for is a group called
Speaker 3: the Irish West End Gang. They controlled the western part
Speaker 3: of Montreal, Irish gangsters, bank robbers. They controlled the port,
Speaker 3: so the Hell's Angels and the mafia in Montreal had
Speaker 3: to do business with them, and their leader hires Trudeau
Speaker 3: to kill a wayward drug dealer. Trudeau blows up his car,
Speaker 3: puts a remote bomb underneath his car and blows up
Speaker 3: the car right in a park. He could have killed
Speaker 3: kids and passers by. Luckily only the car gets blown up.
Speaker 3: And then when one of the leaders of the Irish
Speaker 3: gang get killed, they want and so they ask Trudeau
Speaker 3: to kill the man the assassin. Trudeau scouts out where
Speaker 3: the man is living. He's hanging out with three other
Speaker 3: bikers in a huge skyrise in downtown Montreal, right next
Speaker 3: to the Big Hockey Arena, and as tens of thousands
Speaker 3: of hockey fans are streaming out on a weekend in
Speaker 3: November nineteen eighty five, four am that morning, Trudeau sends
Speaker 3: somebody to deliver a TV and a VCR at four
Speaker 3: am in the morning to these guys, saying, hey, you
Speaker 3: guys don't have a TV. Here's a present from Eve
Speaker 3: Trudeau with a video about the Hell's Angels. Now, I
Speaker 3: don't know about you, Dan, but at four am in
Speaker 3: the morning, if I did a gift you know from
Speaker 3: Eve Apatchri Trudeau, Ih, well not, I wouldn't accept it,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, and he was known as both
Speaker 3: the mad bumper and the mad bomber. But they take
Speaker 3: the gift. They plug in this video and within seconds. Wow,
Speaker 3: it's such a powerful bomb. And Trudeau later will testify
Speaker 3: how he calculated, you know, the width of the walls
Speaker 3: and everything.
Speaker 4: He figured there would be no other victims other than
Speaker 4: the people in that apartment.
Speaker 3: And remarkably he was right. The four people die, their bodies,
Speaker 3: you know, spread all over the street, the windows of
Speaker 3: the entire skyrides crashed down, remarkably, only a few injuries.
Speaker 3: And Trudeau accomplished his goal. And he was supposed to
Speaker 3: get two hundred thousand dollars, which he needed for his
Speaker 3: drug habit. Well, the Irish Western gang who hired him said, well,
Speaker 3: you know, for the rest of your money, go to
Speaker 3: your fellow bikers because they owe us for a lot
Speaker 3: of drugs we've been selling them. So Trudeau goes cap
Speaker 3: in hand to different chapter leaders, and they grudgingly agree
Speaker 3: to fork over the money. But then they discover that
Speaker 3: Trudeau and a lot of his chapter members, in what's
Speaker 3: called the North Chapter, there are several chapters in Quebec.
Speaker 3: The North Chapter have been sniffing cocaine and not selling it.
Speaker 4: Not only that, been they have developed their own drug
Speaker 4: making operation and they're keeping all the profits to themselves.
Speaker 3: So they decide to do something that I think says
Speaker 3: a lot about what the Hell's Angels are all about.
Speaker 3: They decide they will massacre their own members. They want
Speaker 3: to massacre the entire North Chapter. On a fateful weekend
Speaker 3: in March nineteen eighty five, they bring in, they invite
Speaker 3: the North Chapter to another clubhouse and they take out
Speaker 3: the machine guns and they kill five members. Luckily or ironically,
Speaker 3: you'll never guess where Eve Trudeau is.
Speaker 4: He was in drug rehab in the middle of a
Speaker 4: forest in Oka, which is west of Montreal, and he
Speaker 4: heard about this, and he knew his days were numbered,
Speaker 4: especially when a representative of the leader of the chapter
Speaker 4: who had initiated the killings came to visit him and
Speaker 4: say his motorcycle had been seized. You know, his days
Speaker 4: as a biker were ended, except if he killed two
Speaker 4: more people, he might be spared.
Speaker 2: Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's faced with I mean, this is you know,
Speaker 3: a guy who's been it's now nineteen. You know, he's
Speaker 3: been killing for the Popeyes and then the Hills Angels
Speaker 3: for fifteen years. Suddenly the tables are turned and he
Speaker 3: realizes that he's on the hit list, and so he
Speaker 3: makes a faithful decision. The police after this these massacres
Speaker 3: are searching desperately for clues, and you know, there's there's
Speaker 3: a code of silence among the bikers. So even though
Speaker 3: five bikers have been killed and their girlfriends are worried.
Speaker 4: First we're getting a bit of ahead of ourselves here.
Speaker 4: Police had no idea that this had happened. And for years,
Speaker 4: I mean, every time a victims surfaced, they always just figured, oh,
Speaker 4: it's a settling of accounts between criminal groups. So they
Speaker 4: had no idea that they were looking for single assassin.
Speaker 4: So then when bodies start to float, it's only when
Speaker 4: bodies start to float to the surface of the Saint Lawrence.
Speaker 3: River where they five massacred bodies had been dumped.
Speaker 4: Did they realize that there was something bigger going on?
Speaker 3: So they started an investigation and they do a bit
Speaker 3: of a sweep of the bikers and Trudeau gets arrested
Speaker 3: on a minor gun possession charge, and you know, usually
Speaker 3: a gun possession charge, it's not hard to beat. You're
Speaker 3: not going to do a lot of time. But he
Speaker 3: pleads guilty and he goes to jail, possibly, we think,
Speaker 3: because he realized that might be the safest place for
Speaker 3: him given that he was on this hit list from
Speaker 3: his former brethren. Well, the police visit him, show him
Speaker 3: evidence indications that there's a fifty thousand dollars contract on
Speaker 3: his head, and so he makes a faithful decision which
Speaker 3: will change forever his life but also in many ways
Speaker 3: the history of the Hells Angels in Canada and in America.
Speaker 3: He decides to turn informant. He tells a police officer,
Speaker 3: it's so delicious given how much blood he had on
Speaker 3: his hands. He tells the police officer, I've been killing
Speaker 3: for them and now they want to kill me. That's gratitude.
Speaker 3: A huge amount of events will then unfold.
Speaker 2: What kind of numbers does he tell this Johnny Dalzell,
Speaker 2: this person that he had a relationship back from nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty nine. He was a liaison with the Montreal Police
Speaker 2: and the bikers. But tell us about the the numbers
Speaker 2: that he confesses to, the kinds of YEP numbers that
Speaker 2: he talks about committing.
Speaker 4: By this point, John Delzel is a high is a
Speaker 4: highly a high ranking police officer in charge of the night,
Speaker 4: entire night shift of the Montreal Police Department, and he
Speaker 4: gets a call.
Speaker 3: By coincidence, he hung out with a very young EF
Speaker 3: Trudeau back in the nineteen seventies. I wouldn't say they
Speaker 3: were friends. One was a cop, the other was a
Speaker 3: biker if he.
Speaker 4: Gave him rights home on his motorbike because Trudeau didn't
Speaker 4: have a motorbike. Dalzell gets a call from the Quebec
Speaker 4: Provincial Police Central Station stating that that E. Trudeau wants
Speaker 4: to see him. Dalzell's says, what's going on and has
Speaker 4: his driver, you know. By this point, Dalzell has his
Speaker 4: own driver take him to what's called Patana. It's it's
Speaker 4: the QPP headquarters, and he goes to see Trudeau who's
Speaker 4: sitting in a in a cell and he says, hi John,
Speaker 4: and John says, hi, hi, Eva, what's what's up. He
Speaker 4: tells him that he wants to become an informant. But
Speaker 4: are these guys the qube Provincial police good guys to
Speaker 4: uh to work with? And Dalzel says, well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: You've got to have something to trade. That's the whole
Speaker 4: point of becoming an informant. And Trudeau says to him, well,
Speaker 4: how does forty three murders sound? And Dalzell's response is holly,
Speaker 4: ecuse my language. I think he said, excuse my language.
Speaker 4: He was shocked and he said, I think these guys
Speaker 4: are good, so yeah, do it. And that's how he
Speaker 4: became an informant.
Speaker 3: And what he confesses to is, you know, orchestrating or
Speaker 3: personally carrying out at least forty three murders for the
Speaker 3: outlaw bikers, including the bombings we talked about, car bombings,
Speaker 3: building bombings.
Speaker 4: Kicking people.
Speaker 3: There is boots, strangling people. Yeah, you know, bullets, fatal
Speaker 3: bullets to the body, stabbing to the head, stabbing. So
Speaker 3: he would do whatever was necessary. So suddenly the police
Speaker 3: and again you know, again it's nineteen eighty five, Sunny
Speaker 3: Barger and the hell's Angels have expanded around the world.
Speaker 3: Barger does some time in prison, but the police in America,
Speaker 3: in both the United States and Canada, don't have a
Speaker 3: deep understanding of the bikers, how powerful the Hell's Angels are,
Speaker 3: and it's quite secretive. Well, suddenly you have an elite member,
Speaker 3: Eve Apache Trudeau, who is carried out contract killings, willing
Speaker 3: to fess up and testify against his former brothers, and
Speaker 3: this is quite a gold mine. So initially there's a
Speaker 3: coroner's inquest into the massacre of those five bikers, and
Speaker 3: Eve Trudeau's testimony is quite riveting. It's just a coroner's inquest,
Speaker 3: it's not a legal trial into murder. But for the
Speaker 3: first time really in the world, he begins to explain
Speaker 3: the inner workings of the Hell's Angels, how the chapters
Speaker 3: are organized, the discipline, he talks their codes, the their
Speaker 3: their you know, very strict discipline, the importance of murders
Speaker 3: and getting rid of enemies. It's quite a shocking first
Speaker 3: look at the inner workings of the Hell's Angels, and
Speaker 3: so it starts off well, but then things go off
Speaker 3: the rails because the police in Quebec, as in the
Speaker 3: rest of North America really didn't have a lot of experience,
Speaker 3: one with the Hell's Angels and two in dealing with
Speaker 3: high level informants, particularly the police in Quebec. You know,
Speaker 3: in New York they had already dealt with the mafia
Speaker 3: and they were mafia trials, same in other states. But
Speaker 3: the Quebec police were not used to this. So what
Speaker 3: they do is they quickly rush and they say, Wow,
Speaker 3: you're a great informant. You're going to be our star witness,
Speaker 3: and we're going to go after a bunch of Hell's Angels.
Speaker 3: And so they arrest a lot of the Hell's Angels
Speaker 3: leaders and members in Quebec and a bunch of trials
Speaker 3: start and they want to trot Eve Trudeau out to testify.
Speaker 3: But things don't go as planned.
Speaker 2: How did defense lawyers go to discredit Ive Trudeau? What
Speaker 2: is their attempt? How do they try to discredit Eve
Speaker 2: Trudeau on the stand.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that trias is the proper word, because
Speaker 4: they discredited on every one of them discredited him on
Speaker 4: the stand. The first trial was with the defense learned
Speaker 4: named Daniel Rock and he just had the list of
Speaker 4: forty three killings that Trudeau admitted he had participated in
Speaker 4: and he had him Trudeau go through each one. Well,
Speaker 4: the jury listened, and you know, the jury's looking at
Speaker 4: this killer, admitted killer, sitting in the witness box before them,
Speaker 4: and of course they aren't going to believe this guy.
Speaker 4: And that's what happened in every trial.
Speaker 3: And it means that in the next I think there
Speaker 3: are like five trials over the next couple of years,
Speaker 3: and in every trial in which he testifies as a
Speaker 3: key witness, used bikers get acquitted. Now, you know, it's
Speaker 3: important to step back here, Dad, because if you look
Speaker 3: at other trials that have taken place all through the
Speaker 3: States and in Canada and in Europe. Look, it is
Speaker 3: normal if you're going to get an insider, a snitch,
Speaker 3: an informant, whatever you want to call him, to testify
Speaker 3: in any organized crime case. It's not going to be
Speaker 3: a local priest or a nun, right, it's going to
Speaker 3: be a fellow criminal by definition, right, an informant, an
Speaker 3: insider is part of the gang and they have often
Speaker 3: committed horrible, ugly crimes and they're clearly testifying in their
Speaker 3: own self interest. Anybody who's seen, you know, episodes of
Speaker 3: Law and Order know this but prosecutors and the police
Speaker 3: have to play a careful game. They know they're not
Speaker 3: dealing with a saint, so they have to do a
Speaker 3: few things. First of all, you have to hope that
Speaker 3: the person at least will show some humanity or remorse. Right,
Speaker 3: we'll say, yes, I did those bad things, but now
Speaker 3: I see it differently, and I'm willing to pay the
Speaker 3: price for my crimes. So the jurors will feel some
Speaker 3: kind of understanding of them.
Speaker 4: And the second thing that police have since learned to
Speaker 4: do is make sure that they confirm what this terrible,
Speaker 4: horrible witness who's done terrible things is telling them. You
Speaker 4: know that you need to have independent corroboration. It's key
Speaker 4: to winning a case.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting to see the mistakes that they made.
Speaker 3: They gave Trudeau a very controversial sweetheart deal before he
Speaker 3: even testified, and it shocked people here in Canada when
Speaker 3: the deal becomes public before he starts testifying for forty
Speaker 3: three murders, he sentenced to life, but with the chance,
Speaker 3: which means in Canada, the almost certainty of parole after
Speaker 3: seven years. Just seven years, which means, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: we're talking like two months for every murder, right, he'll
Speaker 3: get a whack of money, you know, go under witness
Speaker 3: protection and for the rest of his life. While in jail,
Speaker 3: you know, he gets Color TV and steak dinners and
Speaker 3: conjugal visits, and so there's outrage. But there have been
Speaker 3: other contracts where where snitches or informants got you know,
Speaker 3: a million dollars or three million dollars, but it was
Speaker 3: predicated on performing well. In other words, the deal is
Speaker 3: only going to come through if your testimony holds up
Speaker 3: in court, and that's not what they did. Let me
Speaker 3: just contrast based on what we were saying, because it's
Speaker 3: really important listeners understand nothing wrong with using a killer,
Speaker 3: a criminal to go after other criminals. The question is
Speaker 3: how much preparation and how do you back this up?
Speaker 3: We were talking dan about Montreal as a crime center,
Speaker 3: a mafia crime center. Well, the biggest alleged mafia crime
Speaker 3: family in Canada is the Risutos. In fact, Vito Rizzuto,
Speaker 3: who police and prosecutors named as the Godfather of Canada,
Speaker 3: was arrested not by Canadians, but was charged by Americans
Speaker 3: for a New York mafia killing that was featured in
Speaker 3: some Hollywood movies. He gets extradited and serves time in
Speaker 3: an American prison. From two thousand and seven to twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: the mafia, like Vito, have been cooperating with the Hells
Speaker 3: Angels in drug trafficking. When he dies, his son Leonardo
Speaker 3: takes over, and Leonardo, according to police, hires a man
Speaker 3: like Eve Trudeau, a man named Francisco Silva, a hitman,
Speaker 3: a mafia hitman who will conduct multiple murders just like Trudeau.
Speaker 3: Silva gets arrested, just like Trudeau just a few years ago,
Speaker 3: and shortly after he gets arrested, a helicopter arrives at
Speaker 3: the prison where he's being held outside of Montreal and
Speaker 3: escorts him out of the prison yard. Everybody knows he's
Speaker 3: turned government snitch. And what do the police do. Unlike
Speaker 3: with Trudeau a couple of decades earlier, where they arrested him,
Speaker 3: gave him a great deal and then shuffled him off
Speaker 3: quickly to court with no preparation and no confirmation, the
Speaker 3: police in Quebec, having learned their lesson, spent three years,
Speaker 3: three years after he turned snitch, interviewing him getting his evidence. Then,
Speaker 3: as we've since found out, they got wired taps and
Speaker 3: search warrants, surveillance to back up what he was saying. Oh,
Speaker 3: and they literally told the court this is so important,
Speaker 3: they said, given his heavy criminal past, we need to
Speaker 3: do extensive verification. And only three years later, really just
Speaker 3: a couple of months ago, we saw one of the
Speaker 3: biggest mafia arrests. Several leaders of the Italian mafia and
Speaker 3: Montreal were arrested based on this hitman's testimony. So that's
Speaker 3: the lesson of our book is that not only did
Speaker 3: Trudeau get away for fifteen years of killing at least
Speaker 3: forty three people, and people ask us, you know, how
Speaker 3: did he do it? How did he hide?
Speaker 4: He didn't have to hide. The cops didn't know that
Speaker 4: they were looking for him in the first place. And
Speaker 4: he really set the scene for the biker wars in
Speaker 4: Quebec that came afterwards, because the Hell's Angels saw that
Speaker 4: they could really kill with impunity and not have to
Speaker 4: worry about being arrested for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the police saw the killings, you know, as they
Speaker 3: would call it another dangland slaying or resettling of accounts,
Speaker 3: and police officers would later tell us that at the
Speaker 3: time they kind of there was the wrong impression. Well,
Speaker 3: you know, they're just cleaning up our garbage for us, right,
Speaker 3: of course, innocence were getting caught in the crossfire.
Speaker 4: Including an eleven year old.
Speaker 3: Boy in one of the bombings. So what happens is
Speaker 3: the Hell's Angels if Trudeau gets the sweetheart deal, gets
Speaker 3: whisked away to jail and then witness protection. And the
Speaker 3: new Hell's Angels leaders realized that there was this guy
Speaker 3: who got away with more than forty murders and the
Speaker 3: police weren't even looking for him. They didn't care. So
Speaker 3: when the Hell's Angels in the nineties go to war
Speaker 3: against their rivals known as the Rock Machine, to some
Speaker 3: degree tied with the American gang called the Bandidos, we
Speaker 3: see in Quebec in the nineties a more than one
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty deaths, bombings, burnings, massacres, much more than
Speaker 3: you ever saw an al Capone Chicago. Because Eve Trudeau
Speaker 3: had set the bar. He had showed the Hell's Angels
Speaker 3: not only how to do it, but how you could
Speaker 3: get away with it.
Speaker 2: Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these
Speaker 2: messages you talk about, these drug wars that were set
Speaker 2: off these wars between gangs and aj the Hell's Angels.
Speaker 2: But we haven't talked about the media response. You talked
Speaker 2: about the young boy that was caught in the crossfire,
Speaker 2: and you talk about the in your book about Alo Police,
Speaker 2: early tabloid from the fifties. What is the media's response
Speaker 2: to all of this, Eve Trudeau and the sweetheart deal
Speaker 2: and his failed testimony, but also what is the public response.
Speaker 4: The public was outraged, plain and simple. They thought this
Speaker 4: was the most terrible thing to have happened for Alo Police,
Speaker 4: which covered the trials extensively, and if Trudeau especially, it
Speaker 4: was all down to Eve Trudeau. So the headlines weren't
Speaker 4: government loses a case or so, and so when's the case.
Speaker 4: It was Trudeau loses loses another one. It was all
Speaker 4: down to Trudeau being a loser, being a killer, being terrible.
Speaker 4: I mean one of the headlines said the worst serial
Speaker 4: killer in Canada.
Speaker 3: But it gets more complicated because initially, for many years,
Speaker 3: much like still happens in so many newspapers and TV
Speaker 3: reports that listeners are reading and watching in the States,
Speaker 3: much of the media buys into the myth of the
Speaker 3: Hells Angels as kind of of lovable rascals, right, you know,
Speaker 3: the Clint Eastwards bikes. You know, sure, you know they
Speaker 3: can be a little rough at the edges and maybe
Speaker 3: a little mean. Yeah, you know they yeah Christmas toys
Speaker 3: for tots and things like that. And so they have
Speaker 3: this image, you know, like Sons of Anarchy and the
Speaker 3: images that are portrayed by Hollywood. And they have a
Speaker 3: PR machine as we mentioned, you know, the Mafia doesn't
Speaker 3: have web pages. You know, the Asian Triads aren't a
Speaker 3: registered trademark like the Hill's Angels. The Hills Angels have
Speaker 3: Sue Disney and toys, r Us and Sacks Fifth Avenue,
Speaker 3: right that that's the kind of PR power they have.
Speaker 3: So initially what you saw is is this almost hero worship.
Speaker 3: You know, people might remember how al Capone was first treated,
Speaker 3: you know in the battles against elliot Ness, and the
Speaker 3: hero worship of people like a Sunny Barger, Willie Nelson
Speaker 3: saying at the tribute when he died there was a
Speaker 3: big party at the coliseum. There's this whole hero worship
Speaker 3: of leaders of the Hells Angels. So initially in Quebec
Speaker 3: where we had crime tabloids, but also the main newspaper tabloids.
Speaker 3: When there was like a Hell's Angel's wedding, it was
Speaker 3: covered like a Hollywood affair. One of Quebec's most famous singers,
Speaker 3: Jeanette Renaud, sings at one of the weddings and there's
Speaker 3: pages and pages of coverage in the media. Only when
Speaker 3: investigative journalists start looking into the real connections between the
Speaker 3: Hell's Angels and organized crime. Only when innocence like that
Speaker 3: eleven year old boy named Danielle Derosche dies because a
Speaker 3: piece of shrapnel goes into his head as he's playing
Speaker 3: outside on a summer morning in East ten Trial, as
Speaker 3: the bikers blow up a jeep to get rid of
Speaker 3: one of their enemies. The public outreach begins to build
Speaker 3: and the investigative journalists start pointing out the truth of
Speaker 3: the Hell's Angels. And that's when the mood begins to
Speaker 3: change in Quebec, and I think in the rest of Canada, where,
Speaker 3: unlike the United States, I think big sectors of public
Speaker 3: opinion now see and recognize Hell's Angels as the organized
Speaker 3: crime group that they are. That's what's changed.
Speaker 4: I can't tell you enough the terror of sitting in
Speaker 4: a courtroom during mom Bouchet's trial for the killing of
Speaker 4: two prison guards.
Speaker 3: Maurris Mambouche was probably the most influential and powerful leader
Speaker 3: of the Quebec Hell's Angels and in many ways one
Speaker 3: of the most famous Hell's Angels in Canada and around
Speaker 3: the world world.
Speaker 4: But you know, having the jury in full view of
Speaker 4: the courtroom and of the of the audience, and sitting
Speaker 4: next to bikers with knuckle dusters on their fingers, staring
Speaker 4: you know, at their elbows, on their on their laps
Speaker 4: and staring intently at the jerors this case was being tried,
Speaker 4: and just I would try to put myself in their
Speaker 4: position as because they were easy to find it. It
Speaker 4: was terrifying. And he was acquitted. Mombouchet was acquitted and
Speaker 4: allowed to walk out the courtroom that very that very moment.
Speaker 3: I have to tell you that in that moment he
Speaker 3: storms out. They use a hitman to testify against him,
Speaker 3: because the Hells Angels had put out contracts to kill
Speaker 3: prison guards randomly in order to basically take on the
Speaker 3: state and state power. Like Eve Trudeau. That first testimony
Speaker 3: from the hitman as a disaster. Maris mom Bouche is acquitted.
Speaker 3: He storms out of the courthouse, opens the courthouse doors,
Speaker 3: and one of the first people he knocks down is
Speaker 3: my wife, Lisa, who's a court reporter for the Montreal Gazette.
Speaker 3: And when I was doing one of my first documentaries
Speaker 3: for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on the Hell's Angels, I
Speaker 3: would have this videotape where you'd see Lisa getting knocked
Speaker 3: down by the Hell's Angels. Now what happens, and it
Speaker 3: goes back to the theme we've been talking about throughout
Speaker 3: this then, is a very smart prosecuted sides to appeal
Speaker 3: and uses the same hit man who was a failure
Speaker 3: in the first trial. But they learned the lesson, and
Speaker 3: as we talked about, she got back up evidence. She
Speaker 3: was able to show the jury that everything this hit
Speaker 3: man was saying, even though he was a killer, was
Speaker 3: true because of other evidence and Maur's mom. Bouche was
Speaker 3: convicted and spent the rest of his life in jail
Speaker 3: where he died. Now, during all this time, during the
Speaker 3: huge biker war, Eve Trudeau, who almost certainly would have
Speaker 3: been killed in that bike a war because there was
Speaker 3: so much violence going on, is first sitting very comfortably
Speaker 3: in jail, is then sent to a prison nobody knows
Speaker 3: where because he's obviously been protected from other prisoners. And
Speaker 3: then he gets bail and he's underwitness protection. Nobody knows
Speaker 3: where he is, nobody hears from him until a shocking
Speaker 3: development in two thousand and four.
Speaker 4: This crown prosecutor, a young crown prosecutor, she's only been
Speaker 4: working for the last two years, is prosecuting sexual abuse
Speaker 4: cases in a town called Saint Jaan. And there's a
Speaker 4: pile of cases on her desk, including one for a
Speaker 4: Dinny Cote, and the investigating police officer knocks on her
Speaker 4: door and says, hey, you should know that this Deny
Speaker 4: Kote is not Denny Kote. He's Eve Trudeau. And she
Speaker 4: has to think of it. You know who is Eve Trudeau.
Speaker 4: She's that young, and she realizes that this is the
Speaker 4: same Eve Trudeau who they you know, her family argued
Speaker 4: about the cases that he was involved in, you know,
Speaker 4: around the dinner table when she was in Greade school,
Speaker 4: and she knew she had something bigger on her plate
Speaker 4: than anything she ever had before, and it was the
Speaker 4: sexual abuse of a boy.
Speaker 3: So Trudeau, well known serial killer, protected by taxpayers, protected
Speaker 3: by police lands up sexually assaulting a young boy. He's arrested,
Speaker 3: cannot find a lawyer, lands up pleading guilty. The judge
Speaker 3: at the time says, you have evil in you, and
Speaker 3: he says you have killed more people than the entire
Speaker 3: Canadian army did in the Gulf War.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 3: Sends him back to prison, and after a few years
Speaker 3: he develops cancer and he goes before the parole board,
Speaker 3: and because he's dying anyways, he asks to be released.
Speaker 3: You know, he's never given interviews, but he makes a
Speaker 3: couple of interesting statements to the parole.
Speaker 4: Board, including that he wants to show his mother that
Speaker 4: he is a good person despite all that he's done.
Speaker 3: And the parole board decides to free him because he's
Speaker 3: going to die anyways. One of the sister, a woman
Speaker 3: who starts our book, Darlene Weihold, who was the sister
Speaker 3: of her brother, gets killed as an innocent bystander mistaken identity.
Speaker 3: If Trudeau's first kills was to get rid of an
Speaker 3: outlaw leader of the outlaw gang, and he has the
Speaker 3: right address but the wrong man. He shoots Darlene's brother
Speaker 3: to death. When he finds out the next day in
Speaker 3: the newspapers, that he's killed the wrong guy. He laughs
Speaker 3: at it and still wants to collect his money. He
Speaker 3: still no, no, no, you have to go kill the
Speaker 3: right guy, which he does. Meanwhile, Darlene, you know, has
Speaker 3: lost her brother, never knew until Trudeau's history comes to
Speaker 3: light what had happened. And she goes to the parole
Speaker 3: hearing to see this evil man, to see this devil,
Speaker 3: but she's quite surprised by what she sees.
Speaker 4: Sees this ghost in a wheelchair who seems like he
Speaker 4: couldn't that he's a wisp himself. She could swat him
Speaker 4: over if she wanted. She also feels that, I mean,
Speaker 4: why is this guy asking for parole after all this time,
Speaker 4: you know, he should be rotting in jail. Her family
Speaker 4: has been destroyed. It never was able to recover. She
Speaker 4: you know, the relationship with her other brothers was broken,
Speaker 4: her mother died, it was it's just been a broken life.
Speaker 4: But she seasoned get parole, and she just figures, well,
Speaker 4: I guess that cancer is the ultimate ultimate sentence.
Speaker 3: Yep, she feels there's some kind of justice. He gets parole,
Speaker 3: and typically of this ghost of a man, this cipher
Speaker 3: of a man, we never know where he's paroled, he dies.
Speaker 3: We don't have an exact date, but within weeks or
Speaker 3: of being paroled, nobody knows where he's buried, and that's
Speaker 3: the end of the hitman. But of course, I think
Speaker 3: the point is is that if you look at some
Speaker 3: of these targeted assassinations that are still going on, you know,
Speaker 3: you could read about bikers that are shot off their
Speaker 3: motorcycle in various states in the South, as as the
Speaker 3: biker wars continue. Here in Quebec, we've seen a well
Speaker 3: known biker leader early one morning at a shopping center,
Speaker 3: stepping out of his car with his little infant child
Speaker 3: and his wife, and a high powered rifle explodes from
Speaker 3: a distance and he is failed and killed. Clearly another
Speaker 3: hit man at work. So you know, yes, Eve Trudeau
Speaker 3: was one of Canada's and indeed one of the world's
Speaker 3: most prolific serial killers, an organized crime hit man, But
Speaker 3: there are other hitmen out there, and unless police and
Speaker 3: prosecutors take organized crime seriously, they're going to continue their work.
Speaker 2: As you write the lesson, you mentioned it already, but
Speaker 2: the lesson was to probably use Eve Trudeau as a
Speaker 2: source of information, and very much like the American model,
Speaker 2: when they had a hitman, they use the information to
Speaker 2: further their investigation rather than assuming that he would be
Speaker 2: a good witness on the stand. In the prosecution of
Speaker 2: the Hell's Angels.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a small example around the same time. And
Speaker 3: you know, look, we're in twenty twenty five. The police
Speaker 3: have now had forty fifty years of experience with the
Speaker 3: Hell's Angels. There are now special biker squads. I have
Speaker 3: talked to police officers all through the United States. You know,
Speaker 3: part of the problem is the police, you know, they
Speaker 3: move on somebody who's on an organized crime beat, moves
Speaker 3: on to homicide or or fraud or a different department.
Speaker 3: The bikers stay the same, right, They've been the bikers
Speaker 3: for twenty thirty forty years, the same leaders, So they
Speaker 3: have that same experience that the police do not have.
Speaker 3: But now there are organized viker squads in many police
Speaker 3: departments and federal police agencies in both the United States
Speaker 3: and Canada, and so they have learned a lot about
Speaker 3: how to do this work and how to be more careful.
Speaker 3: But even back at the time when Trudeau was turning
Speaker 3: out to be such a disaster in the trials, there
Speaker 3: was another serial killer called Donald Lavois, and he was
Speaker 3: much more successful. And we talked to one police officer
Speaker 3: about how they were able to use him in a
Speaker 3: different way than Ive Trudeau was used.
Speaker 4: Levoi, for example, told the investigator that he had killed
Speaker 4: a man and buried his body in this spot in
Speaker 4: that he surrounded the body with candles, and so the
Speaker 4: investigators went out to that spot, dug up the body
Speaker 4: and saw the candles, so that they were able to
Speaker 4: you provide independent corroboration of what Donald Levoix was saying,
Speaker 4: and that has been terribly important in the cases since.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it shows the precedent. As we mentioned, Montreal is
Speaker 3: gearing up, possibly in the fall, for one of the
Speaker 3: biggest mafia trials we've ever seen, about a dozen mafia leaders.
Speaker 3: As I said, we're arrested based on the evidence given
Speaker 3: by a mafia hitman. But the police have spent three
Speaker 3: years getting wire taps and surveillance, and so when that
Speaker 3: trial starts, it might not still work. We don't know.
Speaker 3: We don't know the strength of the evidence. And for sure,
Speaker 3: this hit man will testify, this man who has blood
Speaker 3: on his hands, much like Eve Apache Trudeau, but there'll
Speaker 3: be much more corroborative evidence, and that's the difference. And
Speaker 3: so we'll see what will happen. So there are many lessons.
Speaker 3: You know, when Lisa and I set out to write
Speaker 3: this book, we want it to be very careful not
Speaker 3: to write what I like to call biker porn. You know,
Speaker 3: these biker books that either paint the bikers you know,
Speaker 3: in a kind of very heroic way, or show their
Speaker 3: evil deeds, but it still amounts to being a form
Speaker 3: of biker pornography. We wanted to make it a story
Speaker 3: not only of course, about a serial killer and especially
Speaker 3: his innocent victims, but to show what's wrong with our
Speaker 3: justice system, with our police system across North America when
Speaker 3: it comes to organized crime. What are the lessons we
Speaker 3: could learn from the story of Ivapatchi Trudeau and I
Speaker 3: hope that's the power of the book.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I want to thank you both, Lisa Fiterman and
Speaker 2: Julian Sheriff for coming on and talking about your latest
Speaker 2: hit Man, The Untold Story of Canada's Dead Assassin. For
Speaker 2: those people that might want to find out more about
Speaker 2: this book and your other work, could you tell us
Speaker 2: about a website or any social media that you both do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, are just google our name wwwjulianshare dot com.
Speaker 4: And www dot Lisa Fiterman dot com.
Speaker 3: And there's lots about Hitman, documents, interviews, articles that have
Speaker 3: been written, and my other books that we mentioned, Angels
Speaker 3: of Death, Road to Hell, quite a few books about
Speaker 3: organized crime in America, and you can contact us through
Speaker 3: those websites and we answer all our emails.
Speaker 4: And if I may just add one thing for Julian's
Speaker 4: previous biker books, he always, you know, he would always
Speaker 4: be asked by someone in the audience, aren't you scared?
Speaker 4: And he would always answer, my wife starts the car
Speaker 4: in the morning, and he can't.
Speaker 3: Do that anyway, can't use that joke anymore. Nope.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, Lisa Fiterman and Julian Cheer
Speaker 2: for hit Man, the untold story of Canada's deadliest assassin.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this interview, and you have
Speaker 2: a great evening and good night.
Speaker 3: Take care, stay safe everyone.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 2: Thank you,