WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:40.399 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:46.799 In nineteen seventy five, after Manson family member Lynette Squeaky 8 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:52.039 Frome's attempt to kill President Cheryl Ford, the FBI found 9 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:56.439 a cache of letters in the would be assassin's Sacramento apartment. 10 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:02.840 The return address belonged to future forensic psychologist Jeffrey Smalden, 11 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:10.200 then a young undergraduate. A decade later, after the shocking 12 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:14.879 murders of two co workers, Smaaldon's quest to understand the 13 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:19.640 twisted minds and motivations of killers became personal in a 14 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:24.560 way it never had been before. That beast was not me. 15 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:30.519 Documents five decades of conversations with murderers like John Wayne Gacy, 16 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:37.079 Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, serial sniper Thomas Lee Dillon, and 17 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:41.280 Donald Harvey, then thought to be the most prolific serial 18 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:48.120 killer in American history. Through letters prison visits and interviews. 19 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:53.439 Smaalden gives readers a terrifying look into the darkest recesses 20 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.079 of the human psyche. The book that we're featuring this 21 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.519 evening is That Beast Was Not Me One forensic psychologist. 22 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:08.360 Five decades of conversations with killers with my special guest, 23 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:15.960 forensic psychologist and author, Jeffrey L. Smaalden. Welcome to the program, 24 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.919 and thank you very much for this interview. Jeffrey EL. Smaalden. 25 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:23.879 Thank you for having me, Dan, thank you so much. 26 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.159 And congratulations on your book. Thank you The Beast That 27 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:31.719 Was Not Me. Now, in this book, you take us 28 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:35.840 to December nineteen eighty three and the story of the 29 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:41.840 murders of Paddy Maddox and her friend Joyce McFadden. And 30 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:47.400 this is at the Riverside Hospital. Tell us about your 31 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:53.199 professional position at this hospital at that time in nineteen 32 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:57.280 eighty three, and tell us about Paddy Maddox and her 33 00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:59.039 friend Joyce McFadden. 34 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:02.879 Well, at the time of the hospital murders in December 35 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.319 of nineteen eighty three, I was an assistant vice president 36 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:09.759 at what was then the largest private general hospital in 37 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:14.039 Ohio called Riverside Methodist Hospital. I had been there for 38 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.159 about two and a half years at that point. I 39 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:20.919 had begun as an administrative resident and then stayed on 40 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:24.919 and I had administrative responsibility at the hospital for a 41 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.919 number of departments, including a fairly large combined psychiatric substance 42 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:32.560 abuse unit of about one hundred and thirty eight beds, 43 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:36.159 and then I also had responsibility for this very small 44 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.680 medical research lab that was located just off the main 45 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:44.280 corridor of the hospital and just down the hallway from 46 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:48.000 the waiting area for the radiology department. I had had 47 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:52.759 a total of six employees, a single door that served 48 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:57.000 as entrance and exit. Again that door right around the 49 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:02.199 corner from the hospital's main corridor, and I wasn't really 50 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.520 involved in the day to day operations of the research 51 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:09.919 lab because I was the administrator responsibility for responsible for it. 52 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:12.960 But I had regular contact with the employees and would 53 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.879 typically you know, stop in there every few days or 54 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.519 every week is to see how things were going, and 55 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.680 met regularly with the director. But right before I left 56 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.800 Columbus for my parents' home in Western New York that Christmas, 57 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:35.879 they had their little department Christmas party, and as administration's representative, 58 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:39.720 I attended that, and everybody was there. All the six 59 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.639 medical research lab employees were there. You know. It was 60 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:47.600 a low key but convivial affair. Everyone was in upbeat spirits. 61 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.639 We were all talking about our plans for the holidays. 62 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:56.439 Nothing seemingly unusual at all. And Patty and Joyce were 63 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.399 both there that day and seeming just like they always did. 64 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:05.600 They were both very friendly people, ready smile, always ready 65 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.439 with the greeting when I saw them in the hall. 66 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.480 And the next thing I knew, I was up at 67 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.519 my parents' house between Buffalo and Niagara Falls, and I 68 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.560 got a call from the director of public relations at 69 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:21.480 the hospital and she said, Jeff, I've got some terrible news. 70 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:26.600 And I said, what's that? And I thought I had 71 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.759 a pretty good idea what she was going to say. 72 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.319 That there had been some kind of tragedy involving one 73 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:36.279 of the psychiatric patients. Not long before then, one of 74 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:41.079 the psychiatric patients had stuck a big pen into his 75 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.079 chest in the middle of the night, taking his own life. 76 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.040 So that had been a recent tragedy. Another one had 77 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.399 been a psychiatric patient had been given a temporary leave 78 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:54.519 to walk around the hospital grounds with his young daughter 79 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.120 and killed her on the hospital grounds. So I thought 80 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.360 that this call was going to be about some other 81 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.879 tragedy involving one of the psychiatric patients. And she said, 82 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.879 Joyce McFadden and Patty Maddox were murdered on Friday afternoon, 83 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.199 between four thirty and five o'clock in the afternoon. And 84 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:17.879 I said what I mean, And no news could have 85 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:24.480 stunned me more than that, And that's all all I 86 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:29.720 could say was no way. And she explained that the 87 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:33.319 director of the research lab, who had been off work 88 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.920 that week, had stopped in to check his mail and 89 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.639 phone messages and found Joyce laying in a pool of 90 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.560 blood in the lab. She turned out she had been 91 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:48.319 stabbed close to thirty times, her legs were bound and 92 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.959 blood was all over and he ran screaming from the lab. 93 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.360 Hospital security guard and a family practice physician who happened 94 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:00.240 to hear him screaming, accompanied him back to the lab. 95 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:04.199 Found that Joyce had no pulse, and soon after the 96 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:07.879 police arrived and Patty Maddox's body was found in a 97 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:13.600 walk in refrigerator that was ordinarily used to store tissue samples. 98 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.120 And you know again, I was up at my parents 99 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.680 in New York when I received news of this double homicide. 100 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:27.439 But I was just absolutely flabbergasted by it, and I thought, 101 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:29.759 I need to go back down there. I need to 102 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:34.680 return to work at that place. And when I came 103 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.600 back to Columbus the day after receiving the phone call, 104 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:39.560 as I say in the book, it was like there 105 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.519 was an invisible force field preventing my return to the hospital. Initially, 106 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.639 I just couldn't bring myself to go there. In short 107 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:54.079 order and found that everything had changed. They hadn't arrested anyone. 108 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.399 Nobody had a clue who would have wanted to kill 109 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:01.600 Paddy maddox and Joyce McFadden. I was this prickly tension 110 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.199 in the air, and gaggles of employees in the hallway 111 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.519 talking about it, and everyone had their favorite suspect, so 112 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.399 to put it mildly. Going back to work, and then 113 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:16.600 the next weeks and months, and as it turned out, 114 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.360 two years without an arrest made that a very difficult 115 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:21.160 place to work. 116 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.399 You righte that you finally had enough and you began 117 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:33.519 to prepare your graduation school application. Tell us about this 118 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.879 application and your plan. 119 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:40.559 Well, if I can back up just a little to 120 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.240 sort of set the stage in terms of where I 121 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.559 was in my life. At that point, I was a 122 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:52.799 fledgling hospital administrator. I was going to be an English professor. 123 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.879 I did a master's degree in English at Purdue, went 124 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.759 back to my undergraduate school, taught English for a year, 125 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:02.080 then on a gram went to Trinity College in Dublin 126 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.320 to study modern Irish literature for a year. That was 127 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:07.840 the path that I was on, And then I decided, 128 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.720 I don't really think that academia would be a good 129 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.679 niche for me. I don't think I would thrive in 130 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:18.519 that environment, so I need to think of a different path. 131 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.360 And when I came back from Ireland, and I'll tell 132 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.000 this briefly, but I think it's an important part of 133 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:29.039 the story, at least it is for me. My mother 134 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.679 was a nurse at the local hospital and I said 135 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.279 to her one day, mile, I have no idea where 136 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:36.919 to go with my life now that I'm not going 137 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.120 to be an English professor. I don't know what to do. 138 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.639 And she said, well, down at the hospital where I work, 139 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:45.240 there are a couple of nice looking young men. I 140 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.879 don't really know what they do, but they're very friendly. 141 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.120 Every time I greet them in the hall, they greet me, 142 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.000 and I've heard them referred to as administrators. Have you 143 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.399 ever thought of hospital administration? And I said no, And 144 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:00.639 then I said what's hospital administration? And she said know either. 145 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:02.399 Why don't you go out and talk to one of them? 146 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:06.559 So I did, and he said, yeah, why don't you. 147 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:09.000 I did my masters at George Washington. Why don't you 148 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.720 do yours there and then come back to work for me? 149 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:15.559 And I thought that almost sounds like a job offer. 150 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.039 I had nothing else going on at the time, so 151 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:21.600 I applied to one school, George Washington. I needed to 152 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.039 basically get a full financial ride to be able to 153 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.559 go there for unknown reasons, because I had never taken 154 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.519 a business class in my life. I just ended up 155 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.639 concluding they must have seen me as some sort of 156 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.320 bizarre sleeper candidate that they were willing to cast their 157 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.679 lot with. But I got admitted, did my masters there, 158 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.039 and then the last part of the degree was an 159 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.480 administrative residency. And I could have ended up anywhere in 160 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.440 the country for that, and I ended up at this 161 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:54.120 hospital in Riverside or in Columbus And turned out that 162 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:57.960 you know, this is like a decade after an earlier 163 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.639 chapter in my life that I'm sure we'll get to 164 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.600 where I was as a very young man twenty one 165 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:09.279 years old, corresponding with members of the Manson family. And 166 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.720 so when these murders occurred in December of eighty three, 167 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.200 I'm thinking to myself, what is going on here in 168 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:19.720 my early twenties, I'm corresponding with Charles Manson, but I 169 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.720 kind of felt like I'd left that chapter behind, And 170 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:25.679 now these two women are murdered in the hospital, in 171 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:29.919 a department I'm responsible for. I think maybe I'm meant 172 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:35.399 to do a PhD in forensic psychology and find a 173 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.159 vantage point where I can begin learning about the minds 174 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:42.519 of the kinds of people who would kill Joyce McFadden 175 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.679 and Patty Maddox. So I started thinking about going back 176 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.320 to school at Ohio State. I ended up starting work 177 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:54.240 toward my PhD in August of nineteen eighty five, about 178 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.879 a year well, yeah, about a year and a half 179 00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.600 after the Riverside murders. 180 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.159 You talked about how you reached out to people like 181 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.559 Charles Manson and other members of his family a decade 182 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:15.120 earlier than you did in your decision to study murder. Right, 183 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:19.240 So tell us how on Earth you came to write, 184 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.960 Charles Manson, How did you come up with this idea? 185 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:23.480 Where did it come from? 186 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:30.080 Well? I grew up the son of I always refer 187 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.000 to him this way because I think it conjures a 188 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.759 certain accurate image in people's mind. I grew up the 189 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:41.759 son of a Hoover era g man, very traditional FBI agent, 190 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.240 and during my growing up years there was always kind 191 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.200 of a low hum of talk at home about crime 192 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.480 and criminality and law, and so I always had that 193 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.519 interest percolating in the back of my mind. And when 194 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:02.240 I was a senior in college, Helter Skelder actually came 195 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.519 out in nineteen seventy four. My senior year in college 196 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.759 was seventy four or seventy five. But when the Manson 197 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.840 family murders occurred in August of nineteen sixty nine, I 198 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.159 paid them absolutely no attention. I was fifteen years old, 199 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.480 totally up to my ears in my social life and 200 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.039 the upcoming fall football season and so on. Never read 201 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:28.360 the newspaper, never watched the evening news, so I didn't 202 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.039 really know anything about the carnage in LA. But when 203 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.639 Helter Skelter came out, and I had before that, I 204 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.240 had read one other book about the Manson family when 205 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.799 I was studying my junior year in college overseas, but 206 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:48.360 I read Helder Skelder in a single sitting caffeine fueled 207 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.279 binge that began about three o'clock one afternoon and ended 208 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:55.080 about eleven o'clock the next morning. I just couldn't put 209 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:59.279 it down. I was so entranced by the story. And again, 210 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.679 I'm twenty one years old, and I think what I 211 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:07.759 was most fascinated with wasn't so much Manson himself, but 212 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:10.639 these people who looked up to him as sort of 213 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:15.960 a godlike figure, and if you believed media portrayals of them, 214 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.440 seemed willing to do almost anything at his behest. He 215 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:22.679 would get the idea that they had almost lost the 216 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:27.000 ability to think and act independently. And one day in 217 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:30.720 my abnormal psychology class, my professor mentioned that he had 218 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.879 read Helter Skelter. I don't remember the context for him 219 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:35.840 mentioning that, but I thought, well, I'm going to stay 220 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.000 after class today and talk with him about that book 221 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:42.080 and about my questions about some of these people who 222 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.720 came from backgrounds not unlike my own middle class backgrounds 223 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.200 and ended up in thrall to this career convict with 224 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.519 a fourth grade education. So I stayed after class and 225 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.320 I raised that issue, and when I did, he said, well, 226 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.320 that's interesting. Have you ever thought of writing to them? 227 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:04.360 And I said no, I literally that thought had never 228 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:07.159 crossed my mind. The idea of writing the members of 229 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.159 the Manson family was the furthest thing from my mind. 230 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.000 And he said, well, it might be interesting to hear 231 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.120 what their voices sound like on paper and see if 232 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.000 they match the portrayals of them in the media. So, 233 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.639 after a period of time thinking about it, I decided 234 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.120 to do that, and to my surprise, most of the 235 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:31.639 people I wrote to wrote me back, including Manson and 236 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:36.080 Squeaky thro Me and her roommate fellow Manson devotee Sandy Good, 237 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.960 Susan Atkins, Tex Watson, and others. 238 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:46.840 You had quite the experience corresponding with Charles Manson, didn't you. 239 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.759 I did. Yeah. I didn't know what to expect from him. 240 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.159 I had to know the sense that he was some 241 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:58.840 sort of bizarre lunatic from his portrayal and Helter Skelter 242 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.720 and other meat. But I didn't really know what letters 243 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:08.799 from him would be like. And you know, I was 244 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.080 pretty manipulative. My goal was to convince him to write 245 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:17.519 me back. That was basically my bottom line objective. And 246 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.720 in the very first letter I wrote to him, I 247 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.720 had thought to myself when I sat down to write 248 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.879 that letter, well, what could I write that might make 249 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.799 Charles Manson decide to write me back. That was my 250 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.720 cynical kind of way of thinking. And I knew from 251 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.360 what I'd read that he was a frustrated musician, that 252 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.159 he had been moving in the orbit of some Hollywood 253 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:46.600 A and B list musicians in nineteen sixty eight and 254 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.559 sixty nine. So I written a letter expressing interest in 255 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:55.120 his music, and in particular wondering how I could obtain 256 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.200 a copy of the album of his songs that his 257 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.600 old prison buddy Phil Kaufman, who went on to become, 258 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.240 you know, sort of a well known roadie, was Emily 259 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:09.920 Emmy Lou Harris's roadie for years, but he had been 260 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.440 in prison with Manson and he produced this album during 261 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:16.559 Manson's trial. So I asked Manson if he knew how 262 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.559 I could obtain a copy of that album, and Manson 263 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:25.079 immediately saw through my cynical posturing and just wrote back 264 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.039 and said, you know, stop with this bullshit. You know, 265 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.359 tell me what you're really interested in. It's not songs 266 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.359 and poetry, because what does that all matter? Tell me 267 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.759 what you're really interested in. And I thought, well, I've 268 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:42.200 been called out here, I was a fake and a phony. 269 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.519 I could either bail out or I could try another approach. 270 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.920 So I wrote him again, and this time I told 271 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.839 him a little about me who I was, that I 272 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.599 was a senior in college, that I had read Helder 273 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.720 Skelter and another book about his case called The Family, 274 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.720 and that I was interested in how he had been 275 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.920 portrayed and in the media and so on, and that 276 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.720 I was open to the possibility that certain of the 277 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.920 people who had written about his case didn't get everything right. 278 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:13.799 That I was interested in his perspective. And he then 279 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:17.200 wrote sort of a contemplative letter. I later learned this 280 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:23.799 was definitely not Charles Manson's default posture. Reflective, contemplative was 281 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:27.240 not his default posture. But I must have caught him 282 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.720 on a good day, and he said, at the beginning 283 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.440 of that letter, take everything you've ever heard about me, 284 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.000 and think about it as backwards. The media created this 285 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.720 monster image. That beast was not me, that's where the 286 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:45.880 title of my book comes from. That beast was not me, 287 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.640 but it's what everyone needs me to be, so they 288 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.720 make me up to be a reflection of all their 289 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:54.599 fears and lies. And I, you know, I was young 290 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.519 and green and receptive. You know. Now I would look 291 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:02.160 at that and see it as what it is. But 292 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:07.000 then I thought, oh, that's at least interesting. Maybe Manson's 293 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.200 not exactly as he's been portrayed in the media. 294 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.160 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 295 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:20.039 these messages. Now we were talking about your correspondence with 296 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.920 Charles Manson, but you also reached out to a couple 297 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.599 of his other family member because we were very interested, 298 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:31.960 especially in the idea that you thought that it absurd 299 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:38.279 that these family members were one dimensional robots without a 300 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.279 mind of their own. 301 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.599 Correct And I couldn't figure that out. I was interested 302 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:50.359 in how they would come across in letters. And I 303 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:54.000 mean that part of the story is interesting. I knew 304 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.960 how to find Charles Manson. I knew he was on 305 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.400 the special Adjustment unit at fulsome prison that had been 306 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.640 made clear in the final pages of Helder Skelter. But 307 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.359 I knew that Squeaky from Me, who by most accounts 308 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.839 was his first or second in command of the Manson 309 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.559 family and one of his earliest followers and most zealous advocates, 310 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:16.920 was not in prison. And when I had learned that 311 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.759 she and some of his other followers were not in prison, 312 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.079 I remember initially that whole idea creeked me out, because 313 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.240 I just thought, how could they have been part of 314 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.200 this group of people and not landed in prison? But 315 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.960 they hadn't. But I didn't know where Squeaky FROMI was 316 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.640 or how to contact her, and I used a pretty 317 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:45.519 unorthodox approach that probably had a very small percentage chance 318 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.200 of working, but it did. I had read in Helder 319 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.039 Skelter that one of the assistant District attorneys in the 320 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:54.480 LA office had befriended her and some of the other 321 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.920 Manson girls when they were sitting vigil on the sidewalk 322 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.680 outside the Hall of Justice while Manson was on trial. 323 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:07.160 And so I wrote a letter to Squeaky FROMY and 324 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.720 I put it in a larger envelope addressed to this 325 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:16.559 assistant District DA, and I said, if you know where 326 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.400 Squeaky FROMI is, would you complete the address on my 327 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.240 envelope to her? And send it to her, and I 328 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.240 really thought that would go nowhere. And he wrote me 329 00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:29.759 back immediately and said, yeah, I do know where she is. 330 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.440 He didn't give me her address, but he said, I 331 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.480 did as you requested, completed the address, and I sent 332 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.240 her your letter, and then in less than a week 333 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.480 she responded. So I had my first look at what 334 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.000 a letter from one of Manson's followers would look like. 335 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:50.759 And again I was curious about the degree of congruence 336 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.960 between what a letter from one of them would look 337 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.880 like and how they'd been portrayed in the media. And 338 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:01.480 I get this envelope with floral accents on it, and 339 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:06.880 inside was stationary with the same floral accents and very neat, 340 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:09.880 but very loopy. I always kind of call it looks 341 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.960 like middle school middle middle school girl loopy handwriting, which 342 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:19.039 is probably unfair to characterize middle school's girl's handwriting that way, 343 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.240 but that's what impressed me. And there were lots of 344 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.960 drawings of flowers and smiley faces, and lots of talk 345 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:31.119 of love and togetherness. And at one point during her letters, 346 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.920 she said, Jeff Charlie didn't do it. He is it 347 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.720 with his underlined and she said the only person who 348 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:43.680 understands how to bring about world peace. And I'm reading 349 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.599 this thinking, what you know? This woman, though she wasn't 350 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:51.240 involved directly in the Tate lobbyond the murders, knew all 351 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.200 about them. There was no question about that. And yet 352 00:22:55.240 --> 00:23:00.559 this rhetoric sounded very hippieish and centered in ideals peace 353 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.559 and love. And so for me, the mystery continued beyond 354 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:06.119 that letter. 355 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:12.720 You also corresponded with Sandra Good. You said that she 356 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:16.480 wrote you four letters over a period of six weeks. 357 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.799 What was the conversation like with her or the correspondence 358 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:22.839 I might say. 359 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.359 She did she took over the correspondence. And I always 360 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.960 knew that the letters I wrote were to Sandy and Squeaky, 361 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.119 that they lived together, the very close friends. They lived 362 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.240 in an attic apartment in Sacramento. I didn't know this 363 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.839 at the time, but a third woman named Susan Murphy 364 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.319 was sharing the space with them. 365 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:41.240 But I always. 366 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:45.279 Addressed my letters to both Sandy and Squeaky, And at 367 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:49.039 first the first letter I got from Sandy, I was 368 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:53.200 impressed by how intelligent she was, how articulate she was. 369 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:59.000 She used bright pink stationery. She wrote, well, again, not 370 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.279 what I expected from these people. But she continued with 371 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:09.079 squeakys themes of love and peace, and Charlie understands. They 372 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.960 kept using the term earth balance. He knows how to 373 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.839 bring about earth balance. And they kept expressing concerns for 374 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.400 the environment and so on, and you know, so no 375 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:24.839 references to the murders at all yet. And then I 376 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:28.880 get a letter from Sandy Good one day, which I 377 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:32.400 always say it began in the way you always hope 378 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.599 no letter from the Manson family will begin, right, Jeff, 379 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.160 we're moving out of the realm of words. And I 380 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.480 remember thinking, oh, I don't really want to move out 381 00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:46.640 of the realm of word. That's where I'm that's my 382 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:52.240 comfort zone. And in that letter she started she referenced 383 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:57.000 the Tate Lobiaca murders explicitly for the first time, and 384 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:01.160 she began writing in sort of a poc elliptic terms 385 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.880 about things that were going to go down. She recommended 386 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:09.079 I stay away from La because horrible things were going 387 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.039 to go down there, and just these kind of cryptic 388 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:16.240 messages about bad things like karma as she said that 389 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:21.559 was going to occur. And I remember being alarmed by 390 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.359 this change in her tone. But not so much that 391 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.920 I bailed out of the correspondence. So I wrote her 392 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.720 back after that letter, and then I got the last 393 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:35.160 letter that I received from her during that period. It 394 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:40.480 was Mark June thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, and it was 395 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.440 about a sixteen page handwritten letter. And in that letter, 396 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:52.240 she was encouraging me to phone corporation heads who she 397 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.279 said were complicit and polluting the environment and so on, 398 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.279 and she would say things like, if they aren't paying attention, 399 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.200 say things like do you know who Charles Manson is? 400 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:11.920 Remember Sharon Tate? Or tell them a wave of assassins 401 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:16.559