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Speaker 1: All the keys, all the key material that's essential to

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authorizing bitcoin transactions on the actual network all held by

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one based in their custody and so when you're navigating

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through their app and trying to transfer bitcoin out that

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they get it inside their application and then somehow their

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structure to work to authorize and sign a key for

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of you. You can't pick poin uniquely self custody it right,

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So there's options to hold your own keys. That's been

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that's advanced a lot in like the last decade plus

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where from the very beginning, self custody was optioned for bitcoin,

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but now we have things like Harbord wallets, more consumer

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friendly devices. You have apps on your phone that you

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could run that will hold a key on your phone.

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So really the idea is to take that key and

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move it as far away as possible from attack points.

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Speaker 2: You were listening to Carrie Let's's Financial Survival Network where

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you get valuable information you just can't find anywhere else

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to thrive in today's trying times. You need the Financial

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Survival Network more than ever. Go to Financial Survivalnetwork dot

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com and get your free newsletter and gift. Financial Survival

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Network now more than ever.

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Speaker 1: And welcome.

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Speaker 3: You are listening to and watching the Financial Survival Network.

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I'm your host, Carrie Leutz. Well, bitcoin's been in the news,

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it's headed back up. We hold a small interest in it,

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and mainly to stay in the game, keep track of things,

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and security is a huge thing. Who do you trust?

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Who can you trust? And Joseph Kelly is with us now. Joseph,

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you are CEO and co founder of Unchained. You've got

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over six billion dollars in bitcoin in custody. You do

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iras with bitcoin all these things. Hey, I wanted to

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ask you before we get into it, the way to

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do it IRA with bitcoin. I guess it's similar to

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of gold. IRA set up a checkbook ll C which

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holds custody. It's a disregarded entity. It's owned by your

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your self directed IRA. Is that how that works?

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Speaker 1: That's been a common pattern. That's actually not necessary today.

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We we partner with a bank that is technically the

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IRA custodian. The bank is Fortis out of Colorado or

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underneath Ortis. Our clients can still hold their own keys.

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Uh so uniquely with our our IRA, you can still

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self custody. We'll soon have options available to if if

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you don't want to hould your own keys. But yeah,

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that that was a that was the common practice for

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how to go about holding big coin was was yet

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through that self directed IRA route. But now there's some

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adoption at a few custodians that that work in. Other

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companies in the space like I Trust and others have

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used Fortis or may may still so that's made it easier.

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Speaker 3: All right and interesting. So, you know, my biggest concern

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trusting anybody, whether it's coinbase, you name it is how

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do I know we're not going to get hacked? How

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do I know it's not going to get stolen? Do

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you carry insurance? Will? Who in their right mind would

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write an insurance policy for this? Probably aig or Lloyd's

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of London, if I had to take a guess to

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share with us how you protect your clients.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So there it's important probably set up at this

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point at a distinguishing principle operating for like an unchained

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custoding model versus a coinbase. So coinbasoud be something like

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a centralized custodian that they hold the keys to the bitcoin.

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So for the you know, many billions of dollars worth

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a bigcoin they see you here today. All the keys, all

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the key material that's essential to authorizing bigcoin transactions on

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the actual network all held by coin Base in their custody.

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And so when you're naviating through their app and trying

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to transfer bitcoin out that they get it inside their

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application and then somehow the structure still works to operize

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and sign.

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Speaker 3: A key for you.

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Speaker 1: You can't pick poin uniquely self custody it, right, So

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there's options to hold your own keys. That's been that's

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advanced a lot in like the last decade plus where

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from the very beginning, self custody was optioned for bitcoin,

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but now we have things like harbor wallets, more consumer

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friendly devices. You have apps on your phone that you

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can run that will hold a key on your phone.

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So really the idea is to take that key and

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move it as far away as possible from attack points

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by their partyers and an infiltrator. So people like a

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phone is pretty good or some secure enclaves on it,

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but if you did lose your phone or you had

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something else like, you can probably believe your your key

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is lost at that point. See, harbor wallets are are

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really good warm factors for storing key because you can

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you can also back the weapon ways, and you can

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through multi sig, which is down chain. Worse, you you

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wally start to have more of a redundancy. You have

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multiple keys that you need to access in order to

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spend your bitcoin. It's a frind chain simply. You know

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the ball that a clipical client has With Unchained, it's

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a two or three multi sake. They have two keys

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that they get to keep themselves, maybe the one in

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an office, one at their home, and then Unchain has

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a third key, and so if they lost the key,

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they can come to Unchain and ask us to sign

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while they signed one. But uniquely for Unchained, for that

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you know, six billion dollars for the bigcoining helped secure.

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We're not unilaterally in control of it. So it's guess

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there's really this kind of unique hybrid model that says

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you could hack everything at Unchained to the ground and

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I can't move into this client's bitcoin now I don't

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have subbficient keys. So it's really kind of a partnership.

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But we got a collaborative custody model with our clients

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and that helps always be more secure together.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you know when when you're looking at all

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this stuff. One thing I saw was the SIM swapping,

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and it's a way that hackers. They go to the

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Verizon store, the T Mobile and they say, I lost

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my phone. What can I do? And they show some

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fake ID and they get they get you. They actually

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get a new phone with all of your credentials on it,

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and then they go through your wallets and they grabbed

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the money. And I saw that that coinbase. Recently I

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changed phones, I upgraded. Man, I'm still cursing it. I'm

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still cursing it. But hey, you know, it's part of life.

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You know that, you know, one of the biggest things

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in computers. No upgrade shall go unpunished, right, and you

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know it's it's kind of pony. But basically, you know,

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it's not funny because the people I knew somebody actually

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had a friend who lost nineteen thousand dollars from her

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wallet and was suing was suing T Mobile and the

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holder of the of her crypto account. So it's really

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not funny at all. That serious.

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Speaker 1: Yes, SIM swapping. The vector there I'm most familiar with

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is you know, when you have set up like a

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two factor authentication with a Coinbase or someone else that

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goes to SMS, it goes through text messages. Uh, that's

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a that's a common practice still with other financial solutions

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as well. And so yeah, when you when someone is

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able to port your phone number onto a different device

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that they control and then they receive text messages on

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behalf of you, they can circumvent uh, like you're maybe

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your pre existing passwords or long ends at these at

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these websites. So it's it's really a practice, like we

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don't support any SMS authentication mechanism that unchained. We do

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have a to A, but it uses the authenticator app.

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It's Google Authenticator. There's others that's more. We're usually scanning

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a QR code and so runs as an app on

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your phone, which is way less susceptible or not likely

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to then be like ordered to copy the other copied

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over each other phone unless you're okay.

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Speaker 3: So so you've podcast that because it seems like that's

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a really hard way to do it. But then again,

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I think the carriers are also having liability for this,

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so they've tightened up the ability and someone to walk

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in right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then that's been I mean there I think

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I would say, Michael Turpin, is that a big public

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lawsuit with with T Mobile or the main major characters

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if he was an investor that lost a lot of this. So, yeah,

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some shoppings and majorly on the rise over the last

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few years and these days a lot more of the

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things we see are matters with fishing and spear fishing,

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people impersonating at coin base or impersonating and unchained and

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to people and greating fear and urgency around. Hey, your

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coin Base account is hacked. Work with me to log

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in with you, and you know we'll help you move

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your your funds. That kind of a pattern is something

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you know, people really need to be watching out for that. Really,

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you know, no really good, legitimate financial institution is likely

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to be calling you with any kind of version instructions

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or security issues. You a lot alone, like Google and

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others of the world. But that's the current generation of

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like heightened attack vector that we see. Yeah, because that's

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you know, that is the right, right, the eight hundred

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pound gorilla. That's the first thing I'm sure any new

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client asks you, Right, it's about security, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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it's essential to our value proposition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you can't do that, so, Hey, tell us,

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if I wanted to set up a self directed IRA

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with you, how would I do it?

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Speaker 1: So we've done a lot of work to make this

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onboarding very streamlines. We've had this product line for two years.

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It was really really inherited. We'd acquired a gentleman and

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small business that had done this for many others, and

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so we've been agate that in our platform and basically

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go unchained dot com slash IRA I want to believe,

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and there's a sign up button right there. You can

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work through the flow to sign up for an account.

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We're down to where within a day or two we

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just have to submit some of that information to our

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banking partner Ortis, and then depending on where the person's

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at and how comfort they are setting out the vault

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themselves with their own two keys, or if they'd like

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us to guide them that we can do that. That

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takes a few days if we're helping out with that,

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and then yeah, right now, we change our pricing so

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the first year is free, there are some trading piece

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when people purchase bitcoin with us, and then there's two

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hundred fifty dollars of annual fees starting in the second year.

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So yeah, it's pretty pretty streamlined by now. Thirty forty

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percent of our thousands of clients have an IRA with

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us as well.

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Speaker 3: All right, so we want to find out more about you,

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connect with you, set up an account. How do you

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do that?

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Speaker 1: Unchained dot Com is the principal URL a lot of

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ways to navigate from from there. A lot of our

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specialty is in helping people with education. We consider our

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role here as really as navigators. I think bitcoin can

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be a personal journey. It's both an investment, but for

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a lot of people it's also a new new way

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maybe looking at the world, looking at money, and so

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we have a lot of experts here that are able

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to help people walk them through security solutions for self custody,

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answer a question about irase. We also have a rest

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Investment Advisor affiliate, so actually a fully in subsidiary that

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does financial planning and advice for people that want to

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know answer questions about, for instance, how to balance our

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traditional portfolio versus bitcoin as either grows or changes over

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time in their porfolios makeup. So you know, we really

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try to be a comprehensive Picklin financial service, the solution

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for the long.

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Speaker 3: Term older all right, Hey, well, we just appreciate your

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coming on sharing with us all these new developments, a

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lot of which none of you out here knew about.

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I didn't know about it. And well, if you got

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a question for Joseph for myself, shoot medi email kl

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at Carrie Lutz dot com and you'll find a link

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in the show notes to the site. And while you're there,

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please just to sign up free free newsletter. Got a

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lot of great info in it and shooting one off

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tomorrow in fact does Its been a pleasure. Thanks so much.

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We'll talk to you again for sure.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Kerry, thanks for listening to Carrie Letz's Financial

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Survival Network, your solution to today's trying times. For the latest,

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go to Financial Survivalnetwork dot com. Financial Survival Network now

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more than ever