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That's Chumbu casino dot com 24 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:58.000 and live the Chumba Lane. 25 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.240 No persons every dvoidy by Lost Eater conditions eighteen plus. 26 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.560 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 27 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.680 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:22.000 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK every 29 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:33.280 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:49.200 Good Evening. On February thirteen, twenty and seventeen, two Indiana teenagers, 33 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.519 Abigail Williams thirteen and Liberty German, fourteen, went for a 34 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:56.920 walk in the woods near the abandoned Monen high Bridge. 35 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.480 They never returned home. Their bodies were the sky on 36 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:04.640 Valentine's Day morning, sparking a torrent of news coverage and 37 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:09.080 social media speculation that engrossed the attention of people around 38 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:13.039 the world. A grainy photo of the suspected killer walking 39 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.840 across the bridge in a chilling cell phone recording of 40 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.520 his voice saying down the hill captured the public's attention. 41 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.280 Numerous possible suspects were brought to the attention of the 42 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.680 authorities but dismissed, leaving everyone wondering who could have committed 43 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.360 such a heinous crime. Author Nick Edwards, host of the 44 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:36.080 wildly popular True Crime Garage podcast, was fascinated by the 45 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:40.680 case and for years conducted his own extensive research and commentary. 46 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:44.879 As such, he was able to dissect the investigation that 47 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.919 included an extensive list of possible suspects such as a 48 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:54.840 hatchet wielding lunatic, a kidnapper with unusual tattoos, a murderous pastor, 49 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.039 a rapist, and a father and son catfishing team. Then, 50 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.159 in late October twenty twenty two, local pharmacy technician Richard 51 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:08.520 Allen was charged with the murders. His arrest raised multiple 52 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:11.639 questions about how he was able to evade law enforcement 53 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.919 for so long and what motivated him to commit such 54 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:19.280 a horrific crime. In the Delphi murders, the quest to 55 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.520 find the Man on the Bridge, Edwards and his best 56 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.039 selling co author Brian Whitney give a very soft voice 57 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:30.159 Susan provide a detailed account of the investigation, from the 58 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.560 day the girl's bodies were found to the events leading 59 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:37.280 up to Allan's arrest and a unique insight into the 60 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.319 minds of the killer and those who work tirelessly to 61 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.360 bring him to justice. The book that we're featuring this 62 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.120 evening is The Delphi Murders, The Quest Define the Man 63 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.520 on the Bridge with my special guest, journalist and author 64 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.120 and host of True Crime Garage, Nick Edwards. Welcome to 65 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.560 the program, and thank you so much for this interview. 66 00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:57.400 Nick Edwards. 67 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.960 Thank you so much for having me on True Murdered Day. 68 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.120 It's always been a goal of mine as a podcaster 69 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:06.199 to be on your show and a life goal of 70 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:08.759 mine to write a true crime book, and so today 71 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:11.439 I'm able to check a couple of boxes off here. 72 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:14.280 Thank you so much, and it's a thrilled to have 73 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:18.680 you on finally on True Murder, and congratulations on this 74 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.680 incredible book, The Delphy Murders. 75 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:21.160 Thank you. 76 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.079 Let's start off just as you do in the introduction, 77 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.160 sort of an introduction to where you have lived and 78 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:33.439 how you came to understand and learn about this case 79 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.079 involving this bridge guy. And this is in Carroll County Commet. 80 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.519 You were talking about the Carroll County Comet newspaper and 81 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.680 every day when you resided in central Ohio, as you 82 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.879 still do, you would go to the mailbox and get 83 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.959 your Carroll County Commet newspaper. 84 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:50.959 Why was that? 85 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.959 And tell us about everything you learned at that time 86 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:55.279 about the Bridge guy. 87 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:59.399 Well, I became a subscriber. It's a weekly, small paper 88 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.480 that comes out out of Carroll County, Indiana, and it's 89 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:09.480 seven eight pages, roughly very small community, very small newspaper, 90 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.360 and a lot of it's just things going on in 91 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.639 that community. Well, I became a subscriber to that newspaper 92 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:22.240 years ago because I was so crazy involved as a 93 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:28.639 armchair detective websleuth person from Afar mainly as my daytime 94 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:34.000 job as a true crime podcaster, became very wrapped up 95 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.360 in this murder investigation, and so I thought, you know what, 96 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.439 I'll subscribe to their local newspaper. And it shows up 97 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.439 in my mailbox about once a week, usually on a 98 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.560 Wednesday or a Thursday, and I go and I pull 99 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.199 it out of the mailbox. And for years, you know, 100 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.920 we knew what the suspect looked like, or at least 101 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:57.480 we thought we did, because the girls in this horrific 102 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:02.439 situation were brave enough to capture his image via cell 103 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:08.519 phone and America. This case very quickly became a nationwide case. 104 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.519 Hit the spotlight quickly, and it very quickly spread to 105 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:17.439 other states, and many people online were looking for the suspect. 106 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.480 The suspect that we were calling Bridge Guy or BG 107 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.839 ended up getting all kinds of different monikers over the years, 108 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.399 and so I, like many other people, thought that if 109 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.800 I spent enough time on this, or if I just 110 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:34.600 kept looking, that was the only way to assatiate my 111 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.079 fascination with this case and with the investigation itself, was 112 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.720 to troll around and look for Bridge Guide. Didn't think 113 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.480 that I actually would, but given I believe that the 114 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.439 suspect was local, and that's what law enforcement was telling us. 115 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.480 They believed that he was local or had ties to 116 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.160 the Delphi area. And so I thought, you know what, 117 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:00.399 I'll subscribe to this newspaper and every week I checked 118 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:02.600 out to the mailbox would retrieve it, and then I 119 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.079 would thumb through the pages looking at all the pictures. 120 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:07.800 And again, like I said, we all thought we knew 121 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.279 what Bridge Guy looked like. As much as it helped 122 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:13.399 the investigation having a photograph of the man on the 123 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.600 bridge in other ways, that also hindered the investigation. 124 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:21.319 Now you take us in this book back to Delphi, Indiana, 125 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.439 and take us back to shortly before this and the 126 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.199 things that happened in the area that you lived in 127 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.720 and the crimes that affected you earlier on before you 128 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.959 were the co host of True Crime Garage. 129 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:37.120 Well, doing different interviews throughout the years in regard to 130 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:41.120 my work with True Crime Garage, almost always some of 131 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:44.120 the first questions that I get, what got you into 132 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.319 true crime, what got you into podcasting? You know what 133 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.879 inspired you to start a true crime podcast? And so 134 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.120 I thought, you know what, maybe let's go ahead and 135 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.079 answer some of those questions in the book as well. 136 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:00.240 Because the book is very much about the case, the 137 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:04.240 Delphi double murders case, it's also very much about the 138 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:09.519 investigation because in that investigation, they were not telling they 139 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.959 being law enforcement, were not telling the public a lot 140 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.879 of information about the case, and they were public was 141 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.480 very starved for information about the case, mainly because law 142 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.759 enforcement kept coming to us and asking us for our help. 143 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:26.959 Have you seen this man? Do you know who this 144 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:30.680 man is? Here's some behaviors, some post offense behaviors that 145 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.480 we think that he may be experiencing or exhibiting for 146 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.480 all to see, and maybe you the public, could tell 147 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.240 us who Bridge guy is or identify him for us. 148 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.879 So it was this weird back and forth, right where 149 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:48.919 you have law enforcement asking the public for help, but 150 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.559 in turn not giving the public very much information about 151 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:55.399 what it is that they knew or what possible evidence 152 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:58.399 they had in the case. In fact, we knew we 153 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.279 didn't even know how the girls were killed. And so 154 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:06.279 it was this very interesting situation, and it was a 155 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.720 case that I got very much wrapped up. And I 156 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:12.639 chose to tell the story in this manner because it 157 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.480 did involve some of me in the story. 158 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:15.799 Right. 159 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.399 The book is very much about the case, the investigation, 160 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.559 and mainly my observations and my observations about the investigation, 161 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.679 but also my observations about what I was hearing other 162 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:31.279 people question about the investigation itself. And in the forward, 163 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.000 I think that I laid it out perfectly or the 164 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:36.759 best I could for the reader going forward as they 165 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.360 march into this book. That says, you know, portions of 166 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:41.960 this book were written in real time before and arrest 167 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.679 was made. This murder investigation was nearly six years active 168 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.440 before charges were filed. Here in these pages you will 169 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:52.159 find the timeline, the facts, and one man's thoughts, observations 170 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.639 and obsessions with an American murder investigation. This tragedy was 171 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.519 never far from my heart and it is. It's a horrible, 172 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:03.720 heart breaking story of two girls that were out in 173 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.360 a public setting in the middle of the week and 174 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:10.120 they were abducted in broad daylight. And an incredibly heartbreaking 175 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.720 story and an incredibly heartbreaking case, but also a very 176 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.759 fascinating murder investigation. Parts of it played out in front 177 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:20.440 of our eyes as we watched over the course of 178 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:21.480 five and a half years. 179 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.919 Tell us about as you write. February thirteen, twenty and seventeen, 180 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.600 Abby Williams, thirteen year old, and her friend Liberty Libby German, 181 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:34.919 fourteen year old, were dropped off by Libby's older sister Kelsey. 182 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.000 Now tell us a little bit about this scenic moanin 183 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.559 high Bridge, this abandoned railroad bridge that goes over the 184 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.039 Deer Creek in Carroll County, Indiana, and tell us about 185 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.840 the previous evening over at Libby's house. 186 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:51.639 So Delphi, Indiana. This is very much a tight knit community, 187 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.320 great people, hardworking people, god fearing people, it's all of 188 00:10:55.320 --> 00:11:00.480 the earth. And on that day Kelsey, Libby's old sister, 189 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.399 drops the two of them off too. They're going to 190 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.639 enjoy a day outdoors. It was unseasonably warm for that day. 191 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.480 They were going to go out and hike the trails. 192 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.919 There's beautiful trail system that leads up to this mon 193 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.000 And High bridge, and it's an abandoned train bridge, rail 194 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:21.600 railroad bridge from years ago that it's not part of 195 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.120 the trail system. You're not really supposed to be out 196 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.240 there walking on it, but many people do, teenagers, adults, kids, 197 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.960 And from my understanding, I didn't grow up in this area. 198 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:32.919 I grew up in Ohio. 199 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.440 But from my understanding, for the younger folks, this is 200 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.840 kind of a rite of passage, right at some point 201 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.559 that a friend or a loved one or a cousin, 202 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.240 you go out there on the trails and at some 203 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.240 point we all either cross the bridge or we don't 204 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.240 cross the bridge, chicken out and don't go across it. 205 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.720 And on this day Libby, who had crossed the bridge 206 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:59.080 on several occasions before. You know, she has an older sister. 207 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.720 Maybe she went there at one point with her older 208 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:04.000 sister and cross the Moan and High Bridge. But on 209 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:07.559 this day, Abby her best friend. These two were the 210 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:10.600 tightest of friends, the kind of friends that were so 211 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.879 close in relationship and had been such longtime friends that 212 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:18.799 often they're the kind that you would see Abby and 213 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.480 not Libby. Your first question is going to be, well, 214 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.600 where's Libby right? And of course the opposite when you 215 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.159 see Libby without Abby. You were used to seeing the 216 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:30.960 two of them together, super tight friends, the best of friends. 217 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.240 And on that day Libby was going to take her friend, 218 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:36.360 and the two of them were going to cross the 219 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:37.879 Moan and High Bridge together. 220 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:41.200 Now you talk about there that someone was supposed to 221 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.840 pick them up, and that being the father Derek. Correct, 222 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.919 And it's a complicated family situation. She lived with her 223 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:51.159 grandparents actually, But tell us about what happens and what's 224 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.000 the last correspondence that family members have with Libby. 225 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.519 The last real correspondence would be when Libby and Abby 226 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:02.320 were dropped off that day by Libby's sister, and when 227 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.279 Derek arrives at the trails. We're dan, we're only talking 228 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.360 about a very small window of time that has passed here, roughly, 229 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.120 let's say two hours. To make it nice and neat, 230 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:18.480 but Derek shows up to retrieve the girls, and Libby's grandmother, 231 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.759 Becky Patty, is kind of the boss of the family. 232 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.120 And as you said, Libby's being raised by Becky and 233 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.519 her husband, Mike Patty, and they're the nicest, best people. 234 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:35.440 And Grandma basically says to Libby, sure, you know, if 235 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.039 you can get a ride there, and if you can 236 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:41.720 get a ride back, because Becky's out working that day, 237 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.720 if you can secure a ride there and back, sure 238 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.600 the two of you can go out to the trail system. 239 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:50.000 And you can only be out there a brief period 240 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.000 of time. Whatever time you can get dropped off and 241 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.120 whatever time you get picked up, that's that's the parameters. 242 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.200 And so Derek arrives and he's calling Libby's cell phone. 243 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.080 Libby got a cell phone for Christmas, just a couple 244 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.600 months earlier, and so he's not getting in touch with Libby, 245 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:10.360 and so he ownes Becky and says, you know, I'm 246 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:14.039 at the location. I don't understand I can't get a 247 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:16.759 hold of her. And now we have Grandma who's going 248 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:19.639 to join in the efforts of trying to contact Libby, 249 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.320 and before we know it, we have a lot of 250 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:25.480 Libby's family out there searching for both of the girls 251 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:28.879 that evening. Now, both of these were good kids, but 252 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.720 you know, they were also of the teenage years, and 253 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:37.440 we all know that it's not terribly uncommon for teenage 254 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:39.440 kids to not be where they. 255 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.480 Say they are going to be. 256 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:45.840 So I don't think that anybody was overly panicked that evening, 257 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.399 but there was enough of a concern that law enforcement 258 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.159 was called and a more formal search was put together 259 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:57.080 looking for the two girls. It got dark. It was 260 00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:01.360 unseasonably warm that day, but it got cold evening. It's Indiana, 261 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:07.000 it's February, and at some point the sheriff tob Lesenbie 262 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.320 and the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, along with the firefighters 263 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.720 and all the other persons that were there searching for 264 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.759 the girls, they had to decide to call off the search. 265 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.600 This is rough terrain. It can be dangerous. The moan 266 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.440 in high Bridge itself, I think I would as somebody 267 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.240 who does not enjoy heights that much, I would consider 268 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.399 it to be dangerous anytime of day, let alone in 269 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.840 the dark. But it's because it's a nature area trail system. 270 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.919 It's not well lit. They call off the search, and 271 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.120 so Mike Patty goes on the late night news just 272 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.120 informing everybody, hey, my granddaughter's missing. Me and a bunch 273 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:45.039 of other people and the Sheriff's department have been out 274 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:48.840 here looking for her. We also have some of Abby's 275 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.000 family that were on the news that night, and you 276 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.960 can view those news segments on YouTube still to this day, 277 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:59.120 and you see the parents, or the acting parents, who 278 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:01.799 you can see the look of concern on their face. 279 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.159 But again, nobody's overly panicked at this point, right, and 280 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.720 the search for the girls would resume very early the 281 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.600 next morning. Now where I sit in Ohio, this was 282 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:16.159 not even news for us. I'm over two hundred miles away, 283 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:20.440 and it wasn't news to us, And I was already 284 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.360 doing our true crime garage podcast at that point, still 285 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:27.679 working a day job. I've been very lucky to have 286 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.799 a wonderful audience that we've grown throughout the years, a 287 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.559 loyal audience, and now I'm able to make true crime 288 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.120 garage my day job. But back then, I was the 289 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.720 leader of a team involved, heavily involved in my demanding 290 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.600 job at the time, and it wasn't until the day 291 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.840 after the girls were found that The story found me 292 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:50.240 via the Internet and when I read the short, little 293 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.720 new snippet of two girls are missing in a public 294 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.480 area and a park basically let's call it a park 295 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.120 for a lack of a better term, and then they're 296 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:04.160 found near by and they foul play suspected two homicides. 297 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.160 When I read that snippet, I knew right away a 298 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.160 couple of things. The first thing I thought, for I'm 299 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:13.720 trying to envision how this could have went down, so 300 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:15.920 I'm thinking a lot of things had to take place. 301 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.400 But also I was thinking, well, this will probably be 302 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:24.599 solved relatively quickly, typically the way that a homicide works, 303 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.720 and Dan, you're you know this better than anybody because 304 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.680 you've been doing this for so long. Typically it's a 305 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.880 pretty basic scenario. Person A is angry at person B, 306 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.079 and something happens, and person B is killed by person A. 307 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.920 That's typically how these things work. Well in this situation, 308 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.880 we're talking about younger folks. Our two victims were younger, 309 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:50.200 and often police and detectives are going to investigate our 310 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:54.000 social circles, our families, our colleagues. But when we talk 311 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.599 about younger people, typically they have a smaller social circle 312 00:17:57.720 --> 00:17:59.200 than us adults do. 313 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.640 Sure, and so I thought very likely this would be solved. 314 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.839 They would have a suspect in custody within twenty four 315 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.960 forty eight seventy two hours. Traditional police work was going 316 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.720 to work real well here. And then no, we find 317 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.319 out three days later that no, that's not going to 318 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:18.160 be the case. And oh, by the way, there's some 319 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.640 interesting evidence that they have in this case that we 320 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.559 typically don't have in a lot of other cases, especially once. 321 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:25.920 The drag on. 322 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.640 You talk about that evidence that is released, it is 323 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:31.640 very very interesting. But there so tell us about the 324 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:35.039 evidence that they did have and did release an immediately, 325 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.119 but also the things that weren't answered for you at 326 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.319 all that you have to just speculate about. 327 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.599 One thing that was very strange about the case was 328 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:47.440 we get a picture of somebody that they were not 329 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:49.680 calling a suspect. They were saying, this is somebody that 330 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.400 we would like to talk to. This person was in 331 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.960 the area on the day that the girls went missing, 332 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.400 So we know that they're dropped off in the afternoon, 333 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:03.400 and then the following day their bodies are found around noontime, 334 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.920 and we're not told how they were killed or how 335 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.920 they were found. We know they were found by one 336 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:12.079 of the search teams, but the state of the crime 337 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.599 scene of where they were found, we're not given information 338 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.880 about that. We're not told they've not narrowed down the 339 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:19.880 time of death or as far as what they were 340 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.559 telling the public. And then we get this picture of 341 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:24.920 a guy that police say that they want to talk to, 342 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.440 that they believe he could have some information, he's probably 343 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.920 a witness. And I've seen this, and you know, I've 344 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.200 been doing true crime garage since twenty fifteen. We've reviewed 345 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.079 hundreds of cases, and I've been eyeballs deep in true 346 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.519 crime books for years now, a couple decades in fact. 347 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.079 And I'd seen in other cases, especially when we have 348 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.759 more sophisticated investigators, typically state police, larger agencies that have bigger, 349 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:54.759 better resources than some of the smaller agencies. 350 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:56.440 And then you have the FBI as well. 351 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.640 But I've seen in many cases where they do they say, Hey, 352 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.119 this is a person that we just want to talk to, 353 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.440 and oftentimes I've never seen it pan out where that 354 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:09.680 person is not the suspect that they are actually looking for. 355 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.079 And it's not it's not terribly common, but it doesn't 356 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.440 it has happened on occasion where they say, this is 357 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.240 a person we would like to talk to, or here's 358 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:21.680 a description of somebody that was seen in the area, 359 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.279 or a vehicle that was seen in the area, and 360 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.480 the person that actually committed the crime will try to 361 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.519 get ahead of that by going to law enforcement and saying, hell, oh, 362 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.000 by the way, that blue car that you mentioned on 363 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:34.839 the news the other and I'm the owner of the 364 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.319 blue car. I was in that area for this reason 365 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.680 or that reason, not because I was doing anything terrible. 366 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.079 So in this case, immediately Dan, I'm thinking, this is 367 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.880 our suspect, and I was wondering how long it was 368 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:51.440 going to take. I was wondering would this guy walk 369 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.039 into the Carroll County Sheriff's department and try to explain 370 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.480 away why his image was captured there on the trail 371 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.920 system or would it drag on where they were unable 372 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.279 to locate this guy. And if it does drag on, 373 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:10.319 how long until they change this narrative into this is 374 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:14.200 our actual suspect And what other information did they have 375 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.319 about this guy who they just had his image at 376 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.720 that time or it only released the image to the public. 377 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.480 So it was a bizarre investigation to me, and a 378 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:28.519 very intriguing investigation, because here we go, they're releasing what 379 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.319 I call bread crumbs to the public of this is 380 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.079 what we have and we need your help public, and 381 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.720 here's some bread crumbs to lead a part way down 382 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.759 the trail. But at some point we need somebody to 383 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.640 start giving us bread crumbs in return to help us 384 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.319 with our investigation. So I had a lot of questions 385 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:47.960 about what was going on there in Carroll County. 386 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.920 Now let's talk about that image itself, the issues that 387 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:54.160 you had and other people had with the image itself, 388 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:57.720 and then what actually does the image show and portray. 389 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:01.039 Well, the problem I've always had at the image, Dan 390 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.680 is that you review people's statements online social networks and 391 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.720 social media and whatnot, And even people on camera who 392 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.519 have talked about this case, they often say, dissect the 393 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.640 image and tell you what Bridge guy or what the 394 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.680 person who later we're told is the suspect. They tell 395 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.759 us what he looks like. And I've always looked at 396 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.119 this picture and gone, it's not that great of a picture. 397 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:30.839 I don't think we know what Bridge guy looks like. 398 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.480 In fact, I think it's a little irresponsible to sit 399 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:38.039 here and pretend to know what he looks like based 400 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.640 off of this image. And that's why I say early 401 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.839