WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:08.039 Oh gee, is Bolt it show died? 2 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.560 People pay good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:12.160 When they go out to a theater. 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.199 They want clod sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:17.199 the protection booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.920 Everyone for tend podcasting isn't boring, cut it off. 7 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:49.079 Do you remember the movie Harold and Maud While I 8 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.560 was a teenager. It played for over two years straight 9 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.719 at my neighborhood theater. It played and played and played. 10 00:00:57.719 --> 00:00:59.719 I was such a big fan that when the two 11 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.759 star of the film, Ruth Gordon and Bud Court came 12 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.760 to town to celebrate the two year anniversary, I got 13 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:08.840 to have dinner with Bud Court, and I followed the 14 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.480 two stars around with my trustee Super eight camera. 15 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.040 You know, it's a great thing to be a place 16 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:27.760 where something goes right. And for two years at the 17 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:31.480 Westgate Theater, things have gone right for Harold and more 18 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:36.040 and tonight it includes Bodily. 19 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:39.280 There's nothing anybody concerned. 20 00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:40.480 So thank you all. 21 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:47.000 For living in the film and making this probably one 22 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:50.239 of the most touching months of my luck. 23 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:54.239 And I'm sure she said, and God. 24 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:58.519 Bless you are at the Westgate Theater. Harold and Maude 25 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.319 officially became a cult film. I always thought there was 26 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.000 a book in this unique conflux of the perfect movie 27 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.199 at the perfect theater at the perfect time, And now 28 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.280 that book held over Harold and Maud at the Westgate 29 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:14.919 Theater is a reality. The book looks at the beginnings 30 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:18.840 of the Westgate Theater, the tragic loss of its visionary founder, 31 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:23.000 and its struggles to get by for the next forty years. 32 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:28.520 Then we go behind the scenes at the making of 33 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:32.120 Harold and Maud, the casting choices that could have been 34 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.400 the accidental moments that made cinema history, and the marketing 35 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.319 mistakes that nearly doomed the movie. Next, we dive into 36 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.800 the movies two plus years at the Westgate, the one 37 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:47.560 year anniversary, the superfan who saw the movie over one 38 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:50.520 hundred and sixty times and formed a lasting friendship with 39 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.479 Ruth Gordon, the two year anniversary, where Ruth Gordon returned 40 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.639 and Budcourt joined her and also brought out the protesters. 41 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.879 The book also looks at what happened to Harold and 42 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.800 Maud after it left the Westgate, its success in other cities, 43 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:12.439 the stage productions as well as the musical version. Finally, 44 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.680 the book examines the last years of the Westgate Theater 45 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.360 and their ongoing attempts to find a worthy successor to 46 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:22.240 Harold and Maud, which they kept trying to do until 47 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:26.039 the theater finally closed in nineteen seventy seven. The book 48 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.400 is packed with over one hundred and sixty color and 49 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:34.199 black and white photos. 50 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:36.039 Some of the. 51 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.960 Photos are rare, while others are being published for the 52 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:44.000 first time. It's the story of a film that wouldn't 53 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:51.120 die and the theater that gave it life. Check out 54 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.280 Held Over Harold and Maud at the Westgate Theater. 55 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:01.919 Welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host Mike White. 56 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:05.159 On this special episode, I'm talking with author John Gaspard 57 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:08.879 all about his book Held Over. It is the story 58 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.000 of the two year run of Harold and Maud at 59 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:15.120 the Westgate Theater in Minneapolis. It's a great story and 60 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.720 really loving portrait of the film as well as the movie, 61 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:22.480 theater and the community around it. Thanks so much for listening, 62 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.160 and I hope you enjoy the interview. I want to 63 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.040 know a little bit more about how you became an author. 64 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.480 I became an author because of a filmmaker named William Baher. 65 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.920 William Baher was a kind of experimental, semi Hollywood filmmaker 66 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:38.040 in the late sixties, and he wrote a book called 67 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.560 Breaking Through, Selling Out, Dropping Dead, and Other Notes on filmmaking, 68 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.279 a really good book, a little dated now, but about 69 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:48.040 just the ins and outs of making a movie, both 70 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.079 in and outside of the Hollywood system. And then about 71 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.360 a year later he did a update of it in 72 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:56.399 which he just added the stuff that he'd learned, and 73 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:58.839 at the back of it he said, I've become so 74 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:02.199 frustrated filmmaking. I've decided to become a novelist. And that's 75 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:04.240 what he went on to do until then with life. 76 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.360 He became a kind of a thriller novelist and was 77 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.959 very happy doing it. So this is me at age fifteen, 78 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.040 reading and going, oh, okay, if I get tired of 79 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:16.199 making movies, I will write novels. And so for the 80 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:20.120 next forty years I held down a corporate job doing 81 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.199 videos for Fortune five hundred companies, and then in my 82 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:27.000 spare time I made a bunch of low budget feature films. 83 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:31.279 I started that in high school making I believe what 84 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:34.879 is the first super eight sound feature film that was 85 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:37.560 done with a code AC system. And then I've shot 86 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:41.839 him on sixteen millimeters and various forms of video, and 87 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:43.680 the last couple were done in digital video. So I've 88 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.519 done a lot of screenwriting and a lot of writing. 89 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:48.720 This in my day job, so writing wasn't a big deal. 90 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.560 But as I got older, making a little bunch of 91 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:54.160 movies get just a little bit harder. The hours are harder, 92 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.399 the gear, although lighter now than it used to be, 93 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.160 is still clunky, and you can't do it alone. You 94 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.920 do need a talented group, which normally I can assemble, 95 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.240 but it's just it's Mike. It's a lot of work. 96 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:10.279 And I had an idea for a series of novels 97 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:11.920 about a magician because I had a lot of friends 98 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.079 who are magicians. I'd booked a lot of magicians in 99 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.920 the corporate world, and I also had friends who are magicians, 100 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:18.839 and so I wrote a book about a magician who 101 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.759 stumbles into some crimes, and that got popular, so I 102 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:24.560 just kept writing them. There's now ten of those. And 103 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.879 then I wrote another mystery series about a community theater 104 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.360 that keeps stumbling into murders. Three books in that one. 105 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.279 I wrote a couple of filmmaking books, first with Michael Wise, 106 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.079 back in the day when he was still alive and 107 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.600 doing things. I mean, Michael Wisi Publications is still out there, 108 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.000 and then they did a couple of other filmmaking books on 109 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.920 my own. So not afraid to sit down and write 110 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.879 not really an issue. And now that I am in 111 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.240 rehirement age, that's my hobby because I just sit around 112 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:53.879 and write stuff. 113 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:56.439 How did you get the idea for held Over? 114 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.800 On occasion, I do a film podcast called the Occasional 115 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.639 Film Podcast, and I had interviewed a guy named James 116 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.399 Davidson who had written a book called hal Ashby and 117 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.800 the Making of Harold and Maud. And it was a 118 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.000 pretty complete book on that process. And it wasn't a 119 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.120 book I was interested in writing. I didn't want to 120 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.879 ever do any of that in depth. But Harold and 121 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:19.519 Maud was a big movie for me. It ran for 122 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.480 two years here in Minneapolis at the Westgate Theater. I 123 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.680 saw it many times when it was at the Westgate Theater. 124 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.120 It had a first year anniversary. I went to that 125 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.920 and met Ruth Gordon. It had a second year anniversary. 126 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.480 I went to that and met Ruth Gordon and Bud 127 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:36.879 Court and had dinner with Bud Court and shot some 128 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.920 super eight footage of them and just knew a lot 129 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.680 about the movie and realized that it was in that 130 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.720 two year span that it became a cult film. It 131 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.079 probably would have been a cult film eventually, but the 132 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.680 fact that it played continuously seven nights a week, two 133 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.439 shows a night, three shows on Sunday for over two 134 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.480 years at one theater got the attention of a lot 135 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:02.720 of other theater owners around the country, and they started 136 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:07.000 booking it and used that fact in their advertising. Hey, Detroit, 137 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:10.480 what does Minneapolis know that we don't know? Hey, New York, 138 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.639 same thing. And from that it became a cult film. 139 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:16.879 But it wouldn't have happened the way it happened if 140 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.399 it hadn't sat at the Westgate for that amount of time. 141 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.000 And I thought, that's something it hasn't been explored. I 142 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.399 have unique visuals from that time that nobody else has. 143 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:29.399 I have the inside track on it. Let's just sit 144 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.320 down and see what this could become. And I did 145 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.279 it at the perfect time in indie book writing. In 146 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.799 that world, you can now easily get really high end 147 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:46.879 full color, black and white color photographic paper books printed 148 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:49.840 on a print on demand basis, so I don't have 149 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.080 to order five hundred books and have them sitting in 150 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:56.080 my garage. I can order ten twenty as I need them, 151 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.799 which is a little bit more expensive, but I didn't 152 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.240 want I didn't want to die with five hundred books 153 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.320 in the garage. So I thought it's perfect time to 154 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.159 do a coffee table book that it looks at that era, 155 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.720 that every page has a nice surprising image on it, 156 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.840 every page has a nice surprising factor to bid something 157 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.679 you didn't know about either the theater, which had, as 158 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:21.639 it turned out, pretty interesting history, or the movie, or 159 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:23.960 what happened to both of them after they split up 160 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.759 in nineteen seventy four. So it just seemed it seemed 161 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:29.679 like a perfect time to do this sort of large 162 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:30.720 scale project. 163 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.960 And the layout of the book is just gorgeous. Who 164 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.759 did that? Or did you do that yourself? 165 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:38.720 Oh? 166 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.919 If only I could no. And that was one of 167 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.480 the things that made me decide to do it was 168 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:48.399 I approached there's a couple in England that do run 169 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:51.440 a company called Design for Writers, and they have done 170 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:55.639 virtually every book cover that I've done, and I've done 171 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:59.039 a lot of books, and they're very creative and really 172 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.240 easy to work with. And I approached them and said 173 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.120 here's what I'm thinking. This isn't going to be covered. 174 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:06.639 This is going to be one hundred and sixty some pages, 175 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:10.480 and every page is designed. There's a template insofar as 176 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.440 we have a look for the overall thing and what 177 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.279 a caption looks like and that kind of hmplate, but 178 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:17.559 every page is different and every page is going to 179 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:19.399 be designed. You guys up for that, and they said, yep, 180 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.759 if you give us enough time, we'd love to do that. 181 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.080 And they did just a beautiful job. Speaking of time, 182 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.399 when did you decide to do this project, and how 183 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:32.879 long did it take? I decided late summer last year, 184 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:37.240 twenty twenty four, and immediately began to dive into the 185 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.240 research because although I knew a lot, I thought I 186 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.320 knew a lot about those two years, I knew nothing 187 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.159 about the theater from before seventy four. I worked there 188 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.440 as an usher in nineteen seventy five and seventy six, 189 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.279 so I knew the layout of the building and I 190 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:57.000 knew what it was now. But I had to dive 191 00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:58.919 in and find out what was it when it opened 192 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:00.960 in nineteen thirty five, and why did it open in 193 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.159 nineteen thirty five in the middle of the depression put 194 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:08.120 together by someone who was in the insurance business and 195 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.960 had been a concert violinist, but to become successful in insurance, 196 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.879 and he decided he wanted to build a movie theater 197 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.480 in South Minneapolis when there was another one six blocks away. 198 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.600 Why did he do that? What were his plans for it, 199 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:23.639 what was it going to be? What did it become? 200 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.320 And it was just fascinating going to architectural libraries. I 201 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:31.320 got very lucky and was connected to the founder's granddaughter, 202 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.559 and she had lots of photos and memories that her 203 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.200 mother had written down about the theater. So I was 204 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.360 able to reconstruct why the Westgate popped up in nineteen 205 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:47.559 thirty five, why it almost immediately wasn't a hit because 206 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.440 the guy who founded it died right away, so there 207 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:53.200 was no visionary behind it after like year two, and 208 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.240 it struggled for forty years until it became what one 209 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.720 critic called a resting home or a nursing home for 210 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.919 comedies that aren't completely understood. And it did become that 211 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.159 in the late sixties and early seventies, which is why 212 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.240 Harold and Maud ended up there. There was a reputation 213 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.320 for that. Yeah, so I had to do that research. 214 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.000 I also had to figure out what had happened to the 215 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.799 theater after I left it in seventy six, and what 216 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.080 happened to Harold Maud after it left that theater in 217 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.240 seventy four, So there was a lot of research. Newspapers. 218 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.480 Dot com is fantastic for that sort of thing. I 219 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:27.240 was able to track down the assistant manager from the 220 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:30.279 theater at that time talk to an old usher at 221 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.360 that time. When the second year anniversary came about, there 222 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:38.200 was a neighborhood protest and people had picket signs walking 223 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:41.080 up and down the sidewalk as the two stars entered, 224 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.080 the signs saying we want a new movie and we 225 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:45.759 need variety. And I was able to track down and 226 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.240 talk to the husband of the woman who organized that, 227 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.159 so there were still some people around. And then all 228 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:56.279 the existing articles and interviews from the time and also 229 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.159 from now, I was able to cobble through those and 230 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.600 put together a pretty good timeline of what happened. And 231 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:06.480 that took about eleven months, ten months something like that. 232 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:09.879 The book was being laid out the middle of summer, 233 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.240 so almost a year of research in writing. 234 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:17.399 And it pays off so well. I was just so impressive. 235 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.600 It was so deep in so many areas, and I'm 236 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:23.159 just like, how was he getting this material? This is 237 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.120 amazing to find out about all of these people that 238 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.879 ran the theater and having all of the the bills 239 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:33.120 as far as what's playing and all that. Even didn't 240 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.559 you have like architectural drawings of the theater. 241 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:40.320 I did, which was for me since I had been 242 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.480 there Mike in seventy five seventy six, I was able 243 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:45.559 to go back and figure out when I started there 244 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.960 and when I stopped there just by based on what 245 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.240 movies were showing, and I remembered it was a worn down, 246 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.799 tired theater with the seats were not the original seats, 247 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:58.360 but they were not new seats. When they were put in, 248 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.240 they were used for another theater. The screen had been moved, 249 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.159 the stage used to be set to hold almost a 250 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.120 full orchestra. Because he had intended to have lots of 251 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.440 live entertainment. There had been in nineteen thirty five a 252 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.279 huge clubroom right off the lobby where people could rent 253 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:17.879 and use that for bridge clubs or for parties and 254 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:19.159 then go in and see a movie. They had a 255 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.600 full catering kitchen in the basin for that. They had 256 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.639 its own candy store that was also attached on the 257 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:27.080 other side. But in seventy five when I was there, 258 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:29.320 none of that was there. It was a cramped lobby 259 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:31.080 and a weird little room next to the lobby, and 260 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.960 the restrooms and the auditorium. So getting those original drawings 261 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.679 and going, oh, that's where the clubroom was, that's the 262 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.840 beauty parlor that was next door. They must have put 263 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:42.039 up a wall and made it a beauty parlor. And oh, 264 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.120 that's where the candy store was. That's now a little library, 265 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:46.559 And they put up a wall and made that its 266 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.879 own building. And that's why in fifty five or whatever, 267 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:53.679 they built a candy display case in the lobby. All 268 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.759 this stuff that I had no idea had happened in 269 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.960 that theater was fascinating to find, and nowadays it's a 270 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.000 little bit easier to find stuff. I was able to 271 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.879 track down those drawings and go to the architectural library 272 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:09.759 and find the original blueprints of the guy who made it. 273 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:11.840 It was fun. Of course, at some point you have 274 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.600 to stop and write the book. But one of my 275 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:19.679 goals was because James Davidson has this great book hal 276 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.639 Ashburyen making Harold Mard that has all this detail. I 277 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.600 wanted to find stuff that wasn't necessarily in that book, 278 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.559 or that I, as a pretty diehard Harold and Maud fan, 279 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.240 wouldn't necessarily know. So I was able to talk to 280 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.240 John Rubinstein. John Rubinstein as an actor and a director, 281 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.320 and it was the original Pippen on Broadway, but he 282 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:42.600 was good friends with the screenwriter of Harold and Maud, 283 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:46.120 Colin Higgins, and the part was written for him, And 284 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:48.159 so I was able to talk to John about that 285 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.840 and his feelings about his audition with Gordon, what he 286 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.080 thought about the finished product. And he's a huge fan 287 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.519 of what Bud Court did. But I also learned from 288 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:01.000 him that Alice Lanchester was supposed to play Mode, which 289 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.960 I hadn't known, And he said, if you read the 290 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.679 script and hear her voice in your head, now else 291 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.080 the Lanchester. For anybody to listen to this podcast should 292 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:13.000 know who else Anchester is. But she was a bride 293 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.120 of Frank Kenstein. She was Katie Nana, the original nanny 294 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.600 who quits at the beginning of Mary Poppins. She was 295 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.960 Miss marbles In murdered by death. She had a very 296 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.919 long career and if you read the script with her 297 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.960 inflections in mind, you can absolutely see Colin Higgins meant 298 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:31.919 for that part to be played by her, and I 299 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:32.960 think she would have been terrific. 300 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.399 Having worked at a movie theater in my youth as well, 301 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.720 I'm curious what are some of your favorite memories of 302 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.080 the theater itself. One memory that. 303 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.120 Happened when I wasn't there, but that one of the 304 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:49.120 ushers told me, which I thought was fascinating. If Harold 305 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.679 and Maude, you know that very near the end of 306 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:53.879 the movie, if you haven't seen it, I don't want 307 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.440 to say something is said to Harold and he pauses 308 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.080 for a long time, and then he yells, what really loud? 309 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:04.880 And that is immediately followed by the sound of a siren. 310 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.279 Because the movie played so long at the theater, and 311 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.319 if you worked in a kind of theater I worked in, 312 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.559 there's a lot of downtime when you're in that sort 313 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.400 of thing. That sound coming out of the auditorium was 314 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.880 the signal to everybody that, oh, we got to get 315 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.880 back to work. The audience is about to come out, 316 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.920 And so I thought that was just delightful when I 317 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:32.160 was working there. I don't know what the original setup was, 318 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.640 but if you were an usher, you had to add 319 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.480 black pants and white shirt and a bow tie and 320 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.039 a coat. And I don't know where the girls went, 321 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.799 but the boys had to go backstage, and you would 322 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.119 change backstage behind the screen, and if you understand the 323 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:48.759 laws of the physics, a light is hitting the screen, 324 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:50.599 it's bouncing off the screen. No one can see you, 325 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:54.240 but you can see the whole movie. Which is really 326 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:59.519 fun to be standing back there and seeing Warren Baties 327 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.119 motorcycle riding up Bullhull and drive from Champoo night after night, 328 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.559 because that was about the time I. 329 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:06.279 Was getting changed. 330 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:12.720 However, one employee famously kept forgetting the laws of physics 331 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.599 and needed to see what he was doing, and he 332 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.799 would turn on the light back there, which would give 333 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.599 everybody in the audience their own special little phil. Hey, 334 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:24.039 look there's the strip Tee's going on behind the screen. 335 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.599 The other thing I remembered, and it certainly isn't an 336 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.960 issue now was. There was a columnist here in the 337 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:34.680 Twin Cities named Will Jones, and Will Jones is important 338 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.160 in the success of Harold Mard because he's the one 339 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.759 who championed when it came to the west Gate. He 340 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:41.960 didn't champion Harold and Maud. He said, that's a great movie, 341 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:43.960 but there's a short that played before Harold and Matt 342 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.839 every night called Diduva, And he wrote a whole column 343 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.240 on that two days before Harold and Matt opened up 344 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.920 the west Gate, and the theater staff is pretty sure 345 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.720 that's why they almost had to sell out that first night, 346 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.079 because Will Jones had said, you've got to go see 347 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.279 the short. It's sent it's very funny. But anytime he 348 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.119 would come to the theater, we were put on high 349 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.440 alert and we'd have an usher on either side of 350 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.759 the theater. There was a one of those things where 351 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.559 you had a door on either side. There's no middle 352 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:15.119 aisle there to side aisles, and we had to stand 353 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.160 there and watch and make sure that nobody in the 354 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.039 theater started smoking. There was no smoking in the theater, 355 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.640 but that didn't stop them sometimes because we'd learned from 356 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.119 fast experience. If somebody smoked in the theater, that was 357 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.359 all Will Jones would write about in his column. He 358 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.799 wouldn't write about the movie, he would just write about 359 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.480 the smoking. It was sort of a boring job, except 360 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.279 that I got to see certain parts of certain movies 361 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.119 again and again and again and again, which was interesting. 362 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.559 And I've always felt that although I wasn't working there 363 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.480 during Harold Mott, I did see it, let's just say 364 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.599 a lot. I saw it a lot. And although I 365 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:54.680 was in a film program at that time in high 366 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:58.079 schools and I was in a special film program made 367 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.519 movies and did things like that every afternoon for three years. 368 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.880 It was a seventies film program, which meant it was 369 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.039 the film is a form of expression, and we're not 370 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.559 going to teach you how to do match cuts or 371 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.519 close ups or coverage or anything like that, and don't 372 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.200 you dare try to tell a story. So my film 373 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:16.960 school was watching what hal Ashby did to make Harold 374 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.599 and Maud, the decisions he made on how to do 375 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.519 a montage, when to bring in music, how to hold 376 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.559 for a laugh, even casting, and then reading the script 377 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.880 and going, oh, but he did. He cut out a 378 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.240 lot of stuff in this movie and made it better. 379 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.680 And sometimes when you take things out, they're better, which 380 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:36.519 is a hard thing to do when you're a young filmmaker, 381 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.200 if you're going to all the trouble to shoot something. 382 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:41.559 But it did teach me that, which is if that's 383 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:43.920 not working. It's got to be cut. And he was 384 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.359 pretty fearless about that. So that was that movie's an 385 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.359 education in itself for a young filmmaker. 386 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:51.839 Why do you think we're still talking about this movie 387 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:52.640 all these years later. 388 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.000 I think it hits people on kind of a primal 389 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.279 emotional level, and that's why it stays with them. And 390 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.519 that's to do with the way hal Ashby made it 391 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.279 and the way Counigans wrote it, and the use of 392 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:09.359 Cat Steven's music. The three of those things together create 393 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:15.160 a feeling at the end that just doesn't happen normally 394 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.359 in your normal life. When we discover Harold at the 395 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.799 top of the cliff and he straps on his banjo 396 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:25.559 and he starts playing and notes he's playing Segway beautifully 397 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.359 into Cat Stephens singing, and we've just been through this 398 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:33.440 emotional experience with him. A lot of movies don't give 399 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.440 you that. And what Harold and Maud was able to 400 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:39.920 do for those two years and then when it was 401 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.200