WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:07.639 This is Scott Cleland, executive director of Restore US Institute, 2 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:12.199 and we exist to bring accountability to protect people online 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:16.120 from online harms. And I'm so appreciative to be have 4 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:18.679 they done on with Doctor Sky and had the Doctor 5 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:22.760 Sky Experience here on Talk Radio WABC. 6 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:43.079 And welcome back, ladies and gentlemen to the Doctor Sky 7 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:48.159 Experience art exclusively here on Talk Radio seventy seven WABC, 8 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:51.799 hailing from New York City and around the world special 9 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:55.320 thanks to our producer Richard Dugan. Doctor Sky Experience for 10 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:59.679 the longest time has great interviews from the realms of astronomy, space, aviation, 11 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:02.719 and oather with celebrity guests in the mix, and also 12 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:08.719 common sense interviews about our American heritage and exceptionalism. And 13 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.159 today we'll be talking with Scott Cleland, Founder, executive director 14 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.519 and board member of Restore US Institute. They can be 15 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.719 found on the worldwide Web at Restore Usinstitute dot org. 16 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:23.439 A little background on our special guest, Scott Cleveland has 17 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:27.480 thirty years of relevant professional expertise in US internet policy 18 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.760 and technology. In nineteen ninety two and ninety three, he 19 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:35.680 served as Deputy United States Coordinator International Communications and Information 20 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.840 Policy the hw Bush administration and received a US State 21 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.920 Department Superior Honor Award. Two thousand and two to fourteen, 22 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:48.480 the US State Department of Advisory Committee covering International and 23 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:52.159 Net Policy reappointed him to serve several two year terms. 24 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:55.560 He has testified under oath before eight different US Congressional 25 00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:01.400 subcommittees on communications and Internet issues, total of sixteen times. 26 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.359 We're here today to talk with him about his institute. 27 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.920 We're also here to talk about declaring independence, that is, 28 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:13.080 from technological problems and tyranny. Scott, welcome to the Doctors 29 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.240 Guy experience. Appreciate your time today, and if you begin, 30 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:18.439 please by telling us a little bit more about your 31 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.919 passion as you had the founder and executive director board 32 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:28.120 director for Restore US Institute, which is to restore humanity online. 33 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:33.280 Well, thank you Steve for having me on. I've had 34 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:36.919 a passion for this for about four years. I've been 35 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:41.719 doing Internet policy and things related over for about thirty years. 36 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:47.039 But essentially I realized as a researcher and an analyst 37 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:51.199 that no one had pulled together as I tried to 38 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:56.800 search for it. Essentially, the systemic adverse effects of the Internet. 39 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.400 You know, and we know there from the tech clash 40 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:01.919 and from other things. We know there are a lot 41 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.159 of big Internet problems, but they hadn't been aggregated and 42 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.919 they hadn't been studied. So I developed what I called 43 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.960 macro internetics, which is like macroeconomics is to economics. And 44 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.240 when you look at the Internet, you know, globally and 45 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:21.879 nationally as a system, you realize. And I was drilling 46 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.759 down for a couple of years and really understanding the 47 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:30.479 cause and effects of what it does and real briefly, 48 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:34.039 I'll just summarized kind of what I realized is the 49 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:39.879 main dynamic was Internet policy, which was promoting anarchy. It 50 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.520 was an absence of government policy, and it was promoting 51 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:49.080 approved anarchy online on autopilot. And then the technology itself 52 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.280 was doing something unusual and being a peer to peer 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.919 network and promoting peer to peer network. Those are non reciprocal, 54 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:04.199 so essentially they were What we discovered is it is 55 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:10.400 essentially contra miscounter everything else because most everything you know 56 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.360 in society or in the economy, in security in your 57 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:19.240 life is reciprocal, meaning you involve somebody else or something else, 58 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:21.879 and it's a back and forth where it requires more 59 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.920 than one person and on the internet P two P 60 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:28.800 doesn't require anybody but one person, and it's self governing, 61 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:36.040 self executing. It's autonomous, and it's permissionless, and so you 62 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:41.759 create they're a different dynamic. You know, non reciprocal tends 63 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.519 to be a moral and then there is a sense 64 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.079 that there's no right and wrong. And so those two 65 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:53.600 underlying ideas and concepts tell us a whole lot about 66 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.519 why the Internet has so many problems will continue until 67 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:58.120 it's fixed. 68 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.199 Well, we're glad to have somebody like yourself talking about 69 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.560 this because you know, I'm going to go backwards here 70 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.600 a little bit. In the marketing and capitalist world, everybody 71 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.959 out there, here's all these deals from all these different 72 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:12.560 cell phone providers about get these lines, pay this amount 73 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.639 of money. You know, everybody's willing. It seems nobody's really 74 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.319 questioning about the dangers of the Internet. That's why I 75 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:21.160 think it's important. You know, parents out there have some 76 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:24.680 severe concerns, many parents, as you know very well, about 77 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.759 what their children are able to see on the internet, 78 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:29.279 how the Internet is governed. But if you don't mind, 79 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.360 can you take us back in time when the Internet 80 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:33.480 really got it start. I asked this question of many 81 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.279 other professionals, and I get some vague answers, and not 82 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:38.800 to knock them. In your opinion, when did the Internet 83 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.399 really come about for the useful usefulness even in the beginning, 84 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:45.000 what year would you say, we're really talking about the 85 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.279 inception of people in a large scale usage. 86 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:50.800 On a large scale. I mean the idea was first 87 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.480 started in nineteen seventy four where they devised it, but 88 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.639 it was probably nineteen one ninety two ish timeframe when 89 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:05.160 the National Science Foundation privatized the Internet, and that's when 90 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.600 there was a little bit of a gold rush for 91 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.240 a bunch of companies trying to be the first service 92 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:16.680 providers Internet ISPs, Internet service providers. So that's you know, 93 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.439 the before the Telecom Act from ninety two to about 94 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.720 ninety six was you know, that was really kind of 95 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:28.279 the time when it became something and people started to 96 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:31.519 talk about it. But even in nineteen ninety six when 97 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:35.120 it was you know, kind of given you know, this 98 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:42.160 unfettered by federal regulation and state regulation policy that allowed 99 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:46.319 it to grow and allowed it to have built out 100 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.879 the Internet really quickly, and that was it worked for 101 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.920 the first five or ten years, but interesting that time, 102 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:57.639 just to give a help help people understand. In nineteen 103 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.279 ninety six, when they made that policy and it was 104 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:05.720 really starting to come mainstream, there was only one Senator 105 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.560 that used the Internet ever, and there were only a 106 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.519 few percent of Americans that used it for an average 107 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.360 of thirty minutes a month. 108 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:17.079 Wow, that's amazing. 109 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:19.480 So in the Internet and back then where they set 110 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:22.079 the policy that has been run for twenty five years, 111 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:26.199 it was based on a very small subset of insight 112 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.759 or experience, and at that time, it was like an 113 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.240 electronic bulletin board. That's what it was that did it 114 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.319 real well, and that's essentially what the dot com you 115 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.759 know bubble did. It just created a whole lot of 116 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.920 you know, websites that were looking for views. And I 117 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.839 also back then was the first to kind of publicly 118 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:53.120 tell investors that it was a bubble that was going 119 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.720 to burst because they had hyped it that it was growing, 120 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.000 that Internet traffic was growing ten to twelve times back 121 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:04.600 than my research and others knew was actually happening. 122 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:07.480 Well, we're glad to have people like yourself discussing this 123 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.720 as we get into the real problems, you know, the 124 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.639 real serial issues. Here a recent op ed column that 125 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.560 you've had here in town Hall, I think described some 126 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.199 of this in a synthesis way, and it's described here 127 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.279 and people can of course look at it or check 128 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:25.000 it out. A declaration of independence from unchecked technological tyranny. 129 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:26.800 That's a lot to say if you had to do 130 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.000 a speed class on repeating. But I'm sure the content 131 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:31.839 of what we're going to hear is good. But before 132 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.519 you jump into that, help me out there, because I'm 133 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.399 always one who likes to be a good listener as 134 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.840 a host, not necessarily the one who just blow fates. 135 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:41.960 And you know that's why we have great guests. But 136 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.000 I have to ask this question before we move forward, 137 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.559 where and what is the governance when the Internet started? 138 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:49.919 I mean it's global or was it actually here in 139 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.039 the United States? Because I've never got another answer to 140 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:55.399 a good answer to that. Tell us who is the 141 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.559 governance originally on this whole internet, if there even was 142 00:08:58.600 --> 00:08:59.799 at all one one at all? 143 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:03.600 Well, well, your pointing a finger where it should be pointed, 144 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:06.679 and that is is that you know the Internet itself 145 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.720 in nineteen ninety six when it was launched, you know 146 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.080 it is autonomous. You just think it's like it's a 147 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:18.519 something that's automated, that just runs itself. Do you know, 148 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.639 it really doesn't need anything except one thing, which is 149 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.720 called the root zone file. And the root zone file 150 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.720 is like a phone book for the Internet. It's the 151 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.919 thing that has that ties together a URL and an 152 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:38.919 IP address with that. And what we did is we 153 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.120 controlled that root zone file at the Commerce Department and 154 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:45.480 had a contract on it for many years, and then 155 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.840 during the Obama administration at the end they put it 156 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:54.639 out so that publicly now and globally it is run 157 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.879 by i CAN, which is the International Corporation for Assigned 158 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:03.240 Names and Numbers, and that is it's been a disaster 159 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.320 in my opinion, because there's no accountability and so and 160 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:14.039 China and some others have had too much hand in it. 161 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:17.759 That makes me nervous as well. But when we gave 162 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.720 up the root zone there, we took the only accountability 163 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:25.159 there really was over the global Internet and we handed 164 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:29.600 it over and that, in my opinion, was a huge mistake. 165 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.480 Well, I couldn't bray more, and not just to go 166 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.320 raw raw America. I mean, there's obviously more stories and 167 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.480 that's why we have guests like yourself, But I want 168 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.480 to remind the listeners, you're listening to the Doctor Sky 169 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.080 experience here with me Steve Gates on talk radio seventy 170 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:47.039 seven WABC, New York City and around the world, the 171 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.000 number one talk radio station here in America. I'm a 172 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.919 privilege to have our special guests Scott Cleveland. He's the founder, 173 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:57.120 executive director, and board director of this organization called Restore 174 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:01.519 US Institute. They're located on the web simply Storessinstitute dot org. 175 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:03.799 And what do I stand for? The whole motto here 176 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.679 simply is this restore humanity online. But Scott, please continue 177 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.720 on this. I can. I never really paid attention, and 178 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.120 I'm being honest with you in the audience. I kind 179 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.080 of read it in one of our news reports that 180 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.840 the what the authority was given over or we lost it. 181 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.320 But again, let's get into a little bit more here 182 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.759 in this particular interview of what you've written as an 183 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:30.039 op ed in town Hall just recently. Again, the title 184 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.279 of this particular article of declaration of independence from unchecked 185 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.440 technological tyranny, lots to say, but as you describe it, 186 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.919 and I quote unfettered, free and open Internet end quote 187 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:45.639 policy originally made sense to nurture a promising nascent Internet experiment, 188 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.840 but as the past quarter century has proven, a permanent 189 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.840 trajectory of anarchic impunity to harm others or a mature 190 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.519 Internet is mindless madness. Translate that into what everybody out 191 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.039 there needs to know from just that well. 192 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.559 And the reason I came up with the term mindless 193 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.120 madness because there wasn't a good word in the English 194 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:10.720 language to capture how bad this is. Like on my 195 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.120 web website restore us Institute dot org, I have the 196 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.360 mindless madness category and I have like they are the 197 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:22.919 ten outcomes when you have a a technology like the 198 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:27.879 Internet that everyone does everything everywhere for life, work and 199 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.759 play on this technology. At the beginning, it was a 200 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.799 separate place. We kind of, you know, almost worship it, 201 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:39.200 and I idolized it and thought about it as this utopia. 202 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.720 And now it's fully integrated in everything, and so it 203 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.559 really shouldn't be considered another place. It's it's like another dimension. 204 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:49.519 It's like if we have a you know, we have 205 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.159 our mind, and we have in our soul, we have 206 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.480 a conscience, and it's another dimension on top of that 207 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:01.759 that's an artificial one that tries to replicate most everything 208 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.279 in the real world. So did that help a little 209 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.600 bit in under staying that better, Steeve, No, it. 210 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.159 Absolutely does, And that's why I'm saying this is fascinating me. 211 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.120 I could go on with you and be a listener 212 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.960 more than a talker for hours on this very subject 213 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.840 because it really disturbs me. Scott. You know, I'm just 214 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.840 one guy whore's billions of people. Now I hear the 215 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.360 world describes the number of people on the planet, there's 216 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:29.360 about eight billion souls. I mean not to say that 217 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.360 that's too much, too little, or what have you. But 218 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:33.799 the problem that I see is now we're going back 219 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.279 to big tech and we all know, right or wrong, 220 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:40.080 what of course Dorsey did with Twitter and just you know, 221 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.919 censoring people on there that they didn't like for whatever 222 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.919 reason whatsoever. You know, the big things that go on 223 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.240 with Facebook describe to us in simpletons. We'll get back 224 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.399 into the op ed in more detail. But for the 225 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.120 average family out there, what's some of the precautions that 226 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:57.320 you think people need to know about, especially when children are, 227 00:13:57.399 --> 00:13:59.759 you know, using the internet. What could be the argument 228 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.600 if teachers are saying, hey, do your homework on the internet. 229 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.679 There's what no boundary it seems unless parents put controls 230 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.759 on them. But I talk in the broad sense here. 231 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.240 What would you tell parents is the biggest issues with 232 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:12.799 this technological tyranny? 233 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:20.080 Well, I recommend that they really need to restrict access 234 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:23.720 to it. Kids should not be on the internet, real 235 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:28.080 real young kids, and they and there's huge pressure to 236 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.759 do it, but they don't need to be. And what 237 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.320 you'll see is the big tech when they have their 238 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.200 kids and they send them to private schools or whatever, 239 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:40.000 they don't let them use internet technology either. They get 240 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:44.440 to know that, they know how addictive, how manipulative it is. 241 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:49.000 How you do not I emphasize and do not want 242 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.840 to wire a young child's brain with in the early 243 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.559 years because they're so impressionable. And you know, I worry. 244 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.759 We know what happens like China or in Russia where 245 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.720 a child grows up five or seven years as an 246 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.039 orphan and never gets touched or gets hugged or gets 247 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.720 paid any attention to and they're wired in a way 248 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:15.320 where they just don't have the same personal interpersonal skills. 249 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:16.559 It's one of the saddest things. 250 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.919 And would you describe that as transhumanism in a form? 251 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.120 I mean, you know, we could go into that dimension, 252 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.960 but transhumanism is that somewhat relevant to what you're talking 253 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.279 about here of what the overuse of the internet can 254 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:30.799 do to younger people. It changes. 255 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.039 Yeah, I've always had a heart for the young people, 256 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:37.000 you know, a from parents. My kids are grown up. 257 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:42.679 But it's that's the thing that disturbs me the most 258 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:47.360 about the Internet and Internet policy is we have abandoned 259 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.799 our children for twenty five years. I mean for five administrations, 260 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:56.039 thirteen Congresses, and seventeen Supreme Court justices have neglected to 261 00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:00.519 protect the American people from online harms and crime for 262 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:06.600 twenty five years. And it's it's just unconscionable. I mean 263 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:09.799 I should Can I just do a little sidelight here 264 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:10.279 to give you. 265 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.559 A little that's why we want. We want to learn 266 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.879 from our guests. Yeah, that's what this is about. Go ahead, 267 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:15.720 please there. 268 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.200 The Supreme Court got involved in this in nineteen ninety seven. 269 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.759 There was a Communications Decency Act that was trying to 270 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:26.559 protect children from accessing porn. The lawyers found it and 271 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.480 the Supreme Court found it to be technically poorly written, 272 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.279 which I agree with, and it that that's that was 273 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:38.120 a problem. So they struck down as an as a 274 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.840 abridgment of adults free speech because it was denying their 275 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:47.679 acts that adult access to porn. Well, the Communications Decency 276 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.879 Act was put in there for a reason to keep 277 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.440 pornography from kids. And as we know from the research sense, 278 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:57.240 it has been rampant and it's gotten you know, children 279 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.799 or you know, on the average age of being porn 280 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.400 a way before ten years old. And so you know, 281 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.680 it's just that's a horrible thing. But they had ten 282 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.519 parts of that law, but they struck down because once 283 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.480 you are taking down some of it, they their precedents 284 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.799 say take down all of it. Well, when they did that, 285 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:22.279 something horrible happened, and they haven't fixed it. You know, 286 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.519 they didn't fix it since. And that was in nineteen 287 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.960 ninety six. Section five oh eight was a criminal law 288 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.039 passed as part of that law that said they created 289 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:37.759 criminal penalties for coercing or enticing children for sex or 290 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:43.799 sex trafficking for prostitution. Right, they overturned that as and 291 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.000 when every when the judges over the last twenty years 292 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.519 interpret it and go back to that thing, they go 293 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.720 back and look and said, you know, wow, well I 294 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.640 guess if you you know, if you're going to call 295 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.039 its free speech to pimp children or try and you know, 296 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:01.920 coerce them in that way. That's not freedom of speech. 297 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:07.359 That's heinous. That's the one with inhuman and amorl decisions 298 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.519 I think the Supreme Court has probably ever made so 299 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.680 for twenty years, Congress nor they got revisited it until 300 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:20.039 Congress revisited with the Sex Trafficking Bill in two thousand 301 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.640 and I think nineteen. Well, I'm trying to tell you 302 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:27.680 that's how callous and how bad it has been towards children. 303 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.680 That and only because I went in and deep dived 304 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.799 and compared stuff and figured out and then when you 305 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.240 know I saw it in my research, I almost want 306 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:37.680 to cry. 307 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.720 Yeah right, I mean it's very said, and we're. 308 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:45.200 Talking about pending yourself attended. There are millions of countless 309 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.240 children or fed to predators for the last twenty years. 310 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.880 That's horrible. I mean, there needs to be a stop 311 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:52.920 to this when we have so many issues on the 312 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.200 table here. But today, once again, welcome to the Ductors 313 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.359 Guy experience here on Talk Radio seventy seven w ABC 314 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:01.559 out of New York City and around the world of 315 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.880 privilegen honor to have Scott Cleveland. He's involved here as 316 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.079 the executive director of the Stories Institute dot org, and 317 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:09.759 he has an op ed that we're going to little 318 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:11.680 slice up a little bit here so we can move 319 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.880 forward and talk about some ways that people can actually 320 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:18.079 hopefully protect themselves in our guest opinion. But it's interesting 321 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.880 here the op ed town Hall just recently a declaration 322 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:25.200 of independence from unchecked technological tyranny. You describe and here 323 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.039 you go through a number of points. So if you 324 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.559 could give us the basic synopsis of that op ed, 325 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.039 just give us some more details from what we need 326 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:35.240 to know that we're not paying attention to, from our 327 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.039 own country and our constitutions that should be enforced here. 328 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.640 Yes, and you know we're about a year and a 329 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.160 half ago. I got the idea of using the Declaration 330 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.640 of Independence because as a way to tell the story 331 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:54.599 here and to tell the story in a constitutional way, 332 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.559 in a way that you know, we you know, the 333 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:04.599 Decoration of Independence in seventeen seventy six was hugely influential 334 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.640 in world history, and the Constitution then grew out of 335 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:13.960 it as a few years later. And why I got 336 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.039 this thought, and I said, because I was dealing with 337 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.000 big tech problems at the time, and I said, I 338 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.079 wonder if tyrants were the same back then as they 339 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.599 are now, and lo and behold. I went and read it, 340 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.000 and I went, oh, my goodness, there's twenty nine tier 341 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.720 in these the King George did and then I've come 342 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.960 up with twenty that are the heart of the Declaration 343 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:38.839 of Independence for unchecked technological tyranny. And lo and behold, 344 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.880 the tyrants of today used the same tricks and the 345 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.119 same arm twisting that they used two hundred and forty 346 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.240 years ago. So that's the reason why I did it 347 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:52.720 in this format, because also it's important that I wanted 348 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:58.720 the government to take it seriously because and we'll get 349 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.960 to this a little bit later, but because we recommend 350 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.880 to reconstitute the Constitution, because in nineteen ninety six, the 351 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.079 constitutional authority was taken away from the Internet, even though 352 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.079 it was over it from ninety one to ninety ninety five. 353 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.720 But the reason I tell you it in this context 354 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.440 is that a lot of bad things have happened, and 355 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.640 we people tend to think, oh, you know, freedom and liberty, 356 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.440 and you know, that's the thing it's made America, and 357 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.039 it has and they think, oh, the Internet came along 358 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.799 and perfected it. It was like perfect freedom. No no, no, no, 359 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:40.279 that's what my research is basically found. It has some 360 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:47.000 undermined liberty, equality and justice and humanity so much at 361 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.279 the core, and we are as a as a as 362 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.799 a people and as a nation are much much worse 363 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:58.559 off because of it. I mean to summarize it in 364 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.079 the op ed where it's said there are three chief 365 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.279 tyrannies basically losses of freedom that we've had that and 366 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:09.119 yet there are more, but these are the ones that 367 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.960 make it personal for every one of your listeners. Is 368 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:18.240 the three are. First, it in humanely prioritizes protecting technology 369 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:23.880 over protecting people and children. Second, it's unjustly grants technology 370 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.119 impunity over people, meaning they can do what they want 371 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:33.799 with no risk or punishment, and it unfairly empowers them. 372 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:39.880 Technology empowers technology to control and govern people without any 373 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:45.920 rights to process or access to justice. And so essentially, 374 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.640 online you're dehumanized. You know that you're called a user, 375 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.240 You're not a person like a user, like an addict. 376 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.799 You're butt and sold as data, you know, or you're 377 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:01.400 an avatar. But all of those things are inanimate. You're 378 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.759 not a human. You know, a living, breathing human that 379 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:05.519 bleeds or. 380 00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.960 Bruises or die in good sense, right, And so. 381 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.720 They treat us like commercial chattel where our personal data 382 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:20.519 is bought and sold constantly. Immediately it is we're indentured 383 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.240 servants because they have all of our data and so 384 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.680 and we know that there is a you know, we're 385 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:31.640 second class citizens. We've had our rights taken away, and 386 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:35.200 so we are not the humans we are in the 387 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:43.079 real world and online we are humanized and devalued and disenfranchised. 388 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.079 I couldn't agree with you more, my friend. But let 389 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:46.880 me ask you this guy. We just had a recent 390 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.599 guest there on the Doctor skuy EXPERIENCEIALM named Mark Morano, 391 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.599 and he wrote an interesting book, a rather lengthy book, 392 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.599 but we got him on to discuss it than we did. 393 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.759 I think justice to the book and his great guest. 394 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.039 It's called The Great Rest and obviously weming into the 395 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.680 Great Reset and how they're changing the whole world. And 396 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.880 this is a whole global thing. So if we're talking 397 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.720 about a constitutional standard here for America's you know, the 398 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.359 users here, how does that fly in the face of 399 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.000 global governance? Because I would imagine as much as I'm 400 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.799 a proud American who wants to see what you're talking 401 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.640